Poll: WOuld your view change the meaning of the Lord's supper?

[LaceyT]

Whatever your stance is - pro Transubstantiation (the bread and wine are actually changed into the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ) or not - if the opposite were true, would it change it's meaning? 

[Outspoken]

I'm the only one to vote...yeah!! I changed it once already. :) I went from Zwinglian (sp) to reformed stance.

[sklippstein]

i can't accept it any other way than IT IS........the true body and blood of Christ.

[Job_38]

Well that was immature.

No, it wouldn't change it. It still keeps the reason: Doing it in rememberence of Christs death

[ZooMom]

28th February 2003 at 09:24 AM LaceyT said this in Post #1 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=681415#post681415)

Whatever your stance is - pro Transubstantiation (the bread and wine are actually changed into the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ) or not - if the opposite were true, would it change it's meaning? 



How could the meaning *not* change? :scratch:

[Job_38]

It could. I don't know how.

Could someone show me the verses that support the belief of it becoming the real body and blood

[ZooMom]

You mean aside from the whole Bread of Life discourse in John? :)

How about this?

1 Corinthians 10:16
Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?

1 Corinthians 11:27
Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.

Are you aware that saying 'guilty of the body and blood' is the same as saying 'guilty of murder'? Is it possible to sin against bread and wine if they are *not* the Body and Blood of Christ?

Peace be with you! :)

[ZooMom]

Job?

[Stormy]

Yesterday at 05:54 PM ZooMom said this in Post #7 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=685830#post685830)

Are you aware that saying 'guilty of the body and blood' is the same as saying 'guilty of murder'? Is it possible to sin against bread and wine if they are *not* the Body and Blood of Christ?

Peace be with you! :)



OK I'll bite.

What are you talking about? What is "guilty of the body and blood"?

[ZooMom]

There's no bait, Stormy. :) Job had asked for Scripture that supported the idea that the bread and wine became the actual Body and Blood of Christ. The verses I supplied from Corinthians certainly appear to do just that. I am aware, however, that others may view these verses differently. :)

'Guilty of the body and blood' is a phrase, as I said, that means the same thing as murder. You can't murder symbols, only people. If you sin 'against the body and blood' then you have sinned against an actual person, not an abstract idea or a symbol. In the case of Communion the Body and Blood are Christ's.


Peace be with you. :)

[Terri]

Jesus says his words are Spirit.

You have to have The Spirit to understand spiritual things.

Bread and wine is---bread and wine.  It is not Jesus!!  :)



JN 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.



 


 

[ZooMom]

Today at 04:11 PM Terri said this in Post #11 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=687722#post687722)

Jesus says his words are Spirit.

You have to have The Spirit to understand spiritual things.

Bread and wine is---bread and wine.  It is not Jesus!!  :)



JN 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.



 


 



Ok. :)


Peace be with you.

[dignitized]

Yesterday at 01:29 PM Job_38 said this in Post #4 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=685242#post685242)

Well that was immature.

No, it wouldn't change it. It still keeps the reason: Doing it in rememberence of Christs death




Doing it in remembrance is not WHY we do it or what it is, that is the command of HOW to do it - In remembrance of Him.  DO not forget the beginning of that statment - as often as you do these things (what things?) Confessing that the bread and cup are the Body and Blood of Christ :) - that you do them HOW? In remembrance of him as opposed to out of obligation or habit or compulsion . . .

[OLDoMiNiON]

mmmm, yes, Terri, in here own Huuuge words, i believe is correct.
The Bread and the Wine *represents* what Jesus did for us on the cross. If we take it in *remembrence* of him, and what he did, then we are doing his will. Whether or not it turns into Bleed and Flesh as it travels down your oesophagus, is irrelevant, and i should think we anger the Lord by arguing about it, as we are completely missing the point of the act!

[ZooMom]

Ok.

I'm not arguing anything, as this is the Protestant forum. I was merely asked to provide Scripture, which I did. I am unable, by the rules of this forum, to refute your interpretation. But if you would like to move this discussion to a debate forum, I would be more than happy to discuss both sides and interpretations in a civil manner. :) I will understand if none of you wish to do so, since very often this topic touches some of the most deepseated articles of faith for Christians of both sides and can quickly become a sniping match, rather than a civil discussion.

Peace be with you. :)

[Terri]

Today at 04:27 PM OLDoMiNiON said this in Post #14 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=687919#post687919)

mmmm, yes, Terri, in here own Huuuge words, i believe is correct.
The Bread and the Wine *represents* what Jesus did for us on the cross. If we take it in *remembrence* of him, and what he did, then we are doing his will. Whether or not it turns into Bleed and Flesh as it travels down your oesophagus, is irrelevant, and i should think we anger the Lord by arguing about it, as we are completely missing the point of the act!

 

 :wave: OLDoMiNiON

Do you really believe that the Lord would prefer people to stay in error?

I don't think so!!

We are to speak the Truth whether people like it or not.  :)

[dignitized]

Terri: do you believe that God is so weak as to have allowed ALL of Christendom to fall into error? Because if you say that - to believe that Jesus Christ is REAL in the Lords Supper/Eucharist - is to be in error - Christendom as a whole was in error for well over half of its existence. Would you be surprised to know that churches which developed in cultural isolation all share the doctrine that Jesus Christ is real in the Eucharist. The Celtic church - the Malabar church of India - Even the Christians that Missionaries were surprised to find in China shared a belief in the Real presence of Christ in the Eucharist!

The heretical sects who threw out 90% of Christian theology such as the Cathars and Albigensian heretics of Mediaeval France who threw out the Incarnation of Christ - KEPT the mass!

The other thing that BAFFLES me is - If the Mass is an error, and the Eucharist a lie (meaning that they belong to Satan and spawned by he) why pray tell is there the BLACK MASS? Scripture clearly states - through the Lords own lips that a house divided cannot stand - when they accused him of casting out devils by a devil. The same can be applied in regards to the Eucharist. If God is not present in the Eucharist rendering it an ungodly and thus Demonic thing - then Satan should be compelling all men to believe in it rather than to reject it even going to far as to perverting it into the Black or Satanic Mass.

If you do not agree with the Doctrine of Transubstantiation which states that while the instruments of the Eucharist - meaning the bread and wine - keep all of the sensor characteristics of bread and wine, in the most REAL way possible, the Bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, but prefer the doctrine of Consubstantiation, so be it. (Consubstantiation states that Christ is present in, over, under, and through the bread and wine while the bread and wine remain.) Or if you just want to accept that Jesus Christ told the truth when he held aloft bread that Passover and confessed over it - THIS **IS** my Body, This **IS** my Blood. I care little and truthfully I think the Lord would agree. Its not HOW you understand the real presence to be true so much as that you DO understand that Jesus Christ is real and present in the Lords Supper.


***Note that he says is. How can you doubt what the Lord Himself confessed? DO you think that He, being God, could not see down the annals of history when he said these words? Do you think He, being God, would have said IS if he had meant Represents?

I know that Eucharistic detractors like to point to the “do this in remembrance of me” passage. WHAT was God commanding when he said that? DO - do what? Take the Eucharist? Nope. Read the verse.

Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

The Lord said to do this in remembrance in reference to His confession that the Bread is His Body. The first “this” in that sentence is in reference to the bread which he held at that moment in time. The second “this” is in reference to the first part of that sentence. So that it reads - This [the bread] is my body which is given for you: this [he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you] do in remembrance of me.

[Terri]

Max God is not weak--human beings are!!

Why is it so hard for you to believe Jesus' explanation of His Words. :)

JN 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

 

[dignitized]

Jn: and what is spirit and life? that HIS BODY is meat indeed which we MUST consume to have life in us. Your flesh refuses to accept that we can eat his flesh and for this and for this reason men walked away from Christ. The SPIRIT bares witness that His flesh IS the Eucharist.

Terri - what do you know of the ark of the Covenant?

[Terri]

Today at 08:32 PM Br. Max said this in Post #19 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688537#post688537)

Jn: and what is spirit and life? that HIS BODY is meat indeed which we MUST consume to have life in us. Your flesh refuses to accept that we can eat his flesh and for this and for this reason men walked away from Christ. The SPIRIT bares witness that His flesh IS the Eucharist.

Terri - what do you know of the ark of the Covenant?



God's Words are what we are to consume and what sustains us!! :)

The people walked away from Him because they didn't realize that He was speaking spiritual things.  They thought he meant they had to gnaw on Him.

Feeding on God's Words fills me much more spiritually than gnawing on his flesh ever could! :)

What do you want to know about the Ark of the Covenant?  I can't just tell you everything I know--I don't have the time.  :)

[Andrew]

Br Max,

wld it make you happier if i told you that in my non-denom church, we dont take the communion elements as merely 'symbolic' but do consume them IN FAITH as being the blood and body of the Lord.

the only thing is that we dont believe like the RCs that thru some qualified official RC priest and correct RC ritual, Jesus literally becomes the bread and the wine literally becomes His blood, like as though Jesus in heaven zapped himself into the bread and wine.

there are many protestant churches that do not view the elements merely as symbols. they are somewhere in between symbolic and trans.....(whatever the term is called).

we discern the blood and the body -- ie know what they represent, know their significance, benefits etc and then when we eat, we receive by faith these benefits into our bodies, into our lives.

eg -- the blood is for our constant cleansing, forgiveness, protection.
the bread -- is for our health.

so in my church, when we take the communion, it's never like a ritual. there's always a fresh perspective on it, albeit centred around those benefits mentioned. there's no fixed passage to read out or fixed verses to recite, or fixed procedure. It's entirely Holy Spirit led. So its always fresh.

The good thing abt the protestant view on communion also is that the ordinary Christian can always take communion on his own at home. eg: the head of the household is the priest and he can administer communion to his family members. of cse, the RCs wld consider this sacrilegious but its sad if u can only have communion in church and if it can only be done by a certain person in a certain fashion.

[dignitized]

Terri: lets just deal with some very basic things such as the function of the ark and its contents. :)

[dignitized]

Andrew - I have said and believe - I do not care how you understand that Jesus Christ is REAL in the Lords supper only that you do. It is and has always been an escential doctrine of the Christian faith. :) You don't have to agree with the RC view of transubstantiation - nor do you have to agree with the Lutheran possition of Consubstantiation - just knowing that Christ is real and present in the Lords Supper is enough.

[LaceyT]

Andrew-

For clarification, do you feel that the lord's supper (i.e. taking in the wine - Jesus' blood) saves you? Just wondering.

-Lacey

[dnich163]

I have to say that if it is only symbolic then it is less than the real thing.

It may point to a deeper truth but nevertheless is in effect only a picture of Jesus as opposed to being Jesus in the flesh.

David

[dignitized]

The Eucharist is in reality Christ even if it is not in carnality Christ.

Lacey: the taking of the Eucharist does not save you, but Christ Himself said - not doing it can condemn you :)

[Caedmon]

4th March 2003 at 04:16 AM Andrew said this in Post #21 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=689319#post689319)

so in my church, when we take the communion, it's never like a ritual. there's always a fresh perspective on it, albeit centred around those benefits mentioned. there's no fixed passage to read out or fixed verses to recite, or fixed procedure. It's entirely Holy Spirit led. So its always fresh.


Ah, so it's an impromptu ritual. ;)

[Andrew]

Ah, so it's an impromptu ritual.

We take it first 2 Sundays of the month and during caregrp. And i take it at home at times with my wife when i feel led to.

it's never a boring ritual where only certain qualified people can do it. that sadly is bondage. you shld free yourself from man-made traditions that make the Word of God of none effect.

;)

[Andrew]

Andrew-

For clarification, do you feel that the lord's supper (i.e. taking in the wine - Jesus' blood) saves you? Just wondering.

-Lacey


you mean saved as in salvation over and over again? of cse not. that's silly.

[Lotar]

It seens to me that it is pretty obvious that Jesus was talking figuratively, not literally. Jesus says He is the door, does that mean he is litterally a door? If you take the bread and wine to a lab and test it, I'm willing to bet you that the results would be bread and wine.

[Caedmon]

Yesterday at 02:19 AM Andrew said this in Post #28 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=704924#post704924)

it's never a boring ritual where only certain qualified people can do it. that sadly is bondage. you shld free yourself from man-made traditions that make the Word of God of none effect.

Well now, I don't consider Catholic mass to be a "boring ritual" or "bondage" or "man-made traditions that make the Word of God of none effect."

I find Catholic mass to be quite exciting. I love responding to the priest. I love singing the hymns and hearing the Bible readings. I love walking around the sanctuary and giving my Christian family the sign of peace with a handshake, a hug, or a smile. I love being blessed by Father at communion. I love saying prayers in unison, uniting our voices toward God in the heavens. I love blessing myself with the symbol of Christ, the sign of the cross. I love those exciting rituals because they focus my mind and heart on God and give me peace and healing.

I suggest you study the Catholic mass and at least attempt to appreciate its beauty before you decide to start propagating misconceptions about it.

[Terri]

JN 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

Makes it crystal clear!! :)

[Caedmon]

Edit: I moved my post to a new thread here (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38609).

[Terri]

Humblejoe please remember what forum you are in. Catholics are not to come in here and agrue against our beliefs. :)

[Caedmon]

I'm sorry... I'll take my post and start a new thread in IDD.

[dignitized]

Good thing I'm not Catholic :D