Mixed swimming wrong?

[MarriedMelody]

Hello,
I just wanted to ask if there is anyone here who thinks that mixed swimming is wrong and Christians should choose other, moral kinds of sports?

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, Melody

What makes you think swimming is not a moral sport??

Peace to u,

Bill

[EnemyPartyII]

What would you define as a "moral" sport?

[twistedsketch]

No. People are wearing swimsuits, for goodness sake. I can see why people with wandering eyes would want to abstain, though.

[oliveplants]

I don't know if I would define mixed swimming as 'wrong' or 'immoral' but I think it's 'gross' and I try to avoid it.

[Project 86]

Swimming is wrong if your tempted by other women/men or if your not dressed modestly yourself. Yes, you still can buy modest swimwear, you just will need to look online to find it.

[twistedsketch]

My Speedo (http://www.speedousa.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.detail/categoryID/ade8b735-b858-4052-8827-21d690c0cac4/productID/023c5b26-e8ac-4e19-ab2f-179edebe34cd/) is modest.

[country]

Unless someone has a problem with lust then I don't see anything wrong with it either.

[EnemyPartyII]

Unless someone has a problem with lust then I don't see anything wrong with it either.

Isn't everyone responsible for his own lust though? Should I refrain from swimming for fear someone else might lust?

[Tharsos]

BTW The originator of this thread stated that she is looking for "anyone here who thinks that mixed swimming is wrong". I would appreciate if those people who have lower moral standards would abstain from responding, since this is not a debate forum.

[Tharsos]

BTW The originator of this thread stated that she is looking for "anyone here who thinks that mixed swimming is wrong". I would appreciate if those people who have lower moral standards would abstain from responding, since this is not a debate forum.

[twistedsketch]

BTW The originator of this thread stated that she is looking for "anyone here who thinks that mixed swimming is wrong". I would appreciate if those people who have lower moral standards would abstain from responding, since this is not a debate forum.

"Lower moral standards" as in non-legalists? If she feels she should for some reason that she needs to avoid it, she can go ahead. Don't call our standards lower though.

[SisterMoon]

"Lower moral standards" as in non-legalists? If she feels she should for some reason that she needs to avoid it, she can go ahead. Don't call our standards lower though.
no

[country]

Isn't everyone responsible for his own lust though? Should I refrain from swimming for fear someone else might lust?

Yes, that's what I meant in my post. If A person has a problem with lust they probably shouldn't do that. That shouldn't affect everyone else. Some people lust after others that are fully dressed. They need to get their thoughts under subjection.

BTW The originator of this thread stated that she is looking for "anyone here who thinks that mixed swimming is wrong". I would appreciate if those people who have lower moral standards would abstain from responding, since this is not a debate forum.

Wow, lower moral standards? :o :D Hmm ok.

[Ringo84]

No, to answe the question posed by this thread

Swimming is wrong if your tempted by other women/men or if your not dressed modestly yourself

So basically, if you're a sexual being, swimming is wrong? I mean, everyone is tempted by those they're interested in sexually. If we used that as the way to determine the "morality" of swimming, nobody would pass.
Ringo

[arunma]

Hello,
I just wanted to ask if there is anyone here who thinks that mixed swimming is wrong and Christians should choose other, moral kinds of sports?

No I don't think that "mixed swimming" is wrong. As far as I know, most swimming pools are not segregated by sex, and nor should they be. There are certain things that ought to be sex-segregated, but the swimming pool is not one such area.

[Project 86]

Isn't everyone responsible for his own lust though? Should I refrain from swimming for fear someone else might lust?

Well, let us look for the answer in God's word and see what he has to say.

1Corinthians 8:12-13 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

True, this is talking about food but this is to be applied to other things as well. We must make sure we don't cause our brothers and sisters to stumble.

1Timothy 2:9-10 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.

We should dress modest not only at a public pool but also at school, work and church. I still am amazed when I go into a church and see a young woman with a real low neck line and pants running so low they show her underwear. Why must be dress like the world? Women (I'm not addressing to anyone specific), you don't need to dress like they show you on TV and in magazines to impress us men.

[natanya]

Hi Married Melody,

Mixed swimming is not great. For some reason I think beach mixed swimming is ok because everyone is usually doing their own thing.

At the pool with people who you know it is different. Hey look- Brother Richard has washboard abs!

My $0.02

[cavymom]

IF swimming pools were segregated... how would dads take thier daughters to swim? How would moms take thier sons? Are there only people of a sexual nature that go to swim... aren't there elderly people or babies that like to swim?

If you were living in a muslim country you would have segregated swimming pools. After the whole slavery/ back of the bus thing in america, it's been frowned upon to segregate people. I don't think of swimming as immoral and I don't think it should be segregated.

[No Swansong]

Swimming to me is staying alive while I am in the water.

I (as I believe all to be) am called to be modest in my dress. I have yet to see anything at a public pool (I have had to respond to them often times) that even comes close to modest.
To those who ask whether it is there problem if another is tempted by their dress I would point out that Scripture tells us to do our best to avoid causing our brothers and sisters to fall. While it is true that some could still lust even with very modest clothing I am sure that most swimsuits would cause many more to lust.

[arunma]

Swimming to me is staying alive while I am in the water.

I (as I believe all to be) am called to be modest in my dress. I have yet to see anything at a public pool (I have had to respond to them often times) that even comes close to modest.
To those who ask whether it is there problem if another is tempted by their dress I would point out that Scripture tells us to do our best to avoid causing our brothers and sisters to fall. While it is true that some could still lust even with very modest clothing I am sure that most swimsuits would cause many more to lust.

This calls into question the issue of context. I suppose my question is: what would be modest at a swimming pool? The idea of swimming clothes is to wear as little as possible, because it's very difficult to swim while wearing clothes.

[EnemyPartyII]

String bikinis... immodest.

one piece swimsuits, generally pretty covering, so not such a problem.

Personally, as a large busted girl, I don't know of ANY clothing that covers my "attributes" from someone determined to look... so I guess I just do what I can

[No Swansong]

This calls into question the issue of context. I suppose my question is: what would be modest at a swimming pool? The idea of swimming clothes is to wear as little as possible, because it's very difficult to swim while wearing clothes.

If the activity inherently calls for immodest dress then to me it indicates that it should be avoided.

[EnemyPartyII]

If the activity inherently calls for immodest dress then to me it indicates that it should be avoided.

Surgery? Living in the tropics? Competetive cycling? Indeed, just about any sport? Washing the dog?

[No Swansong]

Surgery? Living in the tropics? Competetive cycling? Indeed, just about any sport? Washing the dog?

I am not sure that surgery would count here. I doubt that many surgeons are moved to lust by an unconscious patient. As for the others I have lived in the Tropics and wore a uniform everyday, As for competitive cycling I would make the same statement as I did for swimming, I would make the same statement about any non-essential. When I wash the dog I wear jeans and a tee shirt.

You could argue this about just about anything and I could respond that either the activity does not truly require immodest apparel or that it is not essential.

I cannot ignore that Christians are called to live modestly in many ways, one of which is dress. In order then to be obedient to Christ I must dress modestly. If an activity required immodest dress I have the choice to participate or to be obedient. I pray that I always chose to be obedient.

[EnemyPartyII]

I guess a suitable definition of "modest" might help

[No Swansong]

I guess a suitable definition of "modest" might help


True. But what is modest is obviously very subjective,

[MikeMcK]

Isn't everyone responsible for his own lust though? Should I refrain from swimming for fear someone else might lust?

Yes. If you have reason to believe that you might cause a weaker brother to sin, then absolutely.

That person is wrong for lusting and is responsible for his own sin. However, you would be just as wrong for putting the temptation to lust in front of him.My equivilent to that is with alcohol.

God has given me the liberty to drink alcohol in moderation (although I rarely do anymore). I can do it with a clear conscience.

However, if I had reason to believe for one second that it was going to cause a weaker brother to sin or to be a stumbling block for someone else, then that's it. I won't drink.

I value the spiritual health of those brothers and sisters around me more than I value a Corona.

[twistedsketch]

Yes. If you have reason to believe that you might cause a weaker brother to sin, then absolutely.

That person is wrong for lusting and is responsible for his own sin. However, you would be just as wrong for putting the temptation to lust in front of him.My equivilent to that is with alcohol.

God has given me the liberty to drink alcohol in moderation (although I rarely do anymore). I can do it with a clear conscience.

However, if I had reason to believe for one second that it was going to cause a weaker brother to sin or to be a stumbling block for someone else, then that's it. I won't drink.

I value the spiritual health of those brothers and sisters around me more than I value a Corona.

So I shouldn't show my dead sexy face to a woman who is known to be horny? I shouldn't look at her, if she joins my church, I should switch churches, I shouldn't talk to any of her friends lest there be a mutual hangout?

If a woman looks good, that's not a bad thing. She goes everywhere, she can't help what people think when they look at her. She can do her part by not looking or acting like she's easy, but most guys are known hornballs. We can lust after a pretty girl no matter what she's wearing - even if it's a sweatshirt and fairly loose jeans. Does that mean they shouldn't go out of the house? Wear a burka?

I don't find anything immodest about a decent one-piece. I don't think that mixed swimming should be forbidden if the women are wearing something decent like that. After all, if it wasn't for the mixed swimming class that both my parents took me to, I wouldn't have learned how to swim. There were both moms and dads of other kids there, with their kids. I guess they should all repent! http://www1.christianforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59434

[MikeMcK]

So I shouldn't show my dead sexy face to a woman who is known to be horny? I shouldn't look at her, if she joins my church, I should switch churches, I shouldn't talk to any of her friends lest there be a mutual hangout?

First of all, if you're a male, then you shouldn't be alone with her, anyway.

Rather than thinking up goofy hypotheticals to justify not doing what the Bible says, how about spending some time thinking about how you can honor it's teachings?

If a woman looks good, that's not a bad thing.

No, it isn't a bad thing at all. However, if she presents herself in an immodest way or a way that she has reason to believe will tempt someone to sin, then her behavior in that situation is bad.

I don't find anything immodest about a decent one-piece.

Nor do I, but there again, you're not asking, "how can I take a weaker brother into consideration", you're asking, "How close to the line can I come and still get away with it".

I don't think that mixed swimming should be forbidden if the women are wearing something decent like that. After all, if it wasn't for the mixed swimming class that both my parents took me to, I wouldn't have learned how to swim. There were both moms and dads of other kids there, with their kids. I guess they should all repent! http://www1.christianforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59434

I think you're confusing me with someone else. I've never said that mixed swimming is a bad thing.

[Atlantians]

My Speedo (http://www.speedousa.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.detail/categoryID/ade8b735-b858-4052-8827-21d690c0cac4/productID/023c5b26-e8ac-4e19-ab2f-179edebe34cd/) is modest.
:D

That brand has gotten such a bad rap.:P

It is only wrong if the men or the woman are drest immodestly.

Unfortunately the vast majority of woman today dress in immodest swinwear.

[Obadiah891]

I wonder about it myself since people are wearing so little. Why is it okay to dress so scantly? We would be shocked if someone walked down the street dressed like that. We would not wear mini skirts because they are not modest. perhaps if we wore modest swimwear it would not be a problem. funny how people think its okay to be in a pool almost naked and our society accepts it.

[IndyRider]

I am not sure that surgery would count here. I doubt that many surgeons are moved to lust by an unconscious patient. As for the others I have lived in the Tropics and wore a uniform everyday, As for competitive cycling I would make the same statement as I did for swimming, I would make the same statement about any non-essential. When I wash the dog I wear jeans and a tee shirt.

You could argue this about just about anything and I could respond that either the activity does not truly require immodest apparel or that it is not essential.

I cannot ignore that Christians are called to live modestly in many ways, one of which is dress. In order then to be obedient to Christ I must dress modestly. If an activity required immodest dress I have the choice to participate or to be obedient. I pray that I always chose to be obedient.
Are you really saying that competitive cyclist are being disobedient? I just want to make sure I understand you.

Thanks.

[No Swansong]

I wonder about it myself since people are wearing so little. Why is it okay to dress so scantly? We would be shocked if someone walked down the street dressed like that. We would not wear mini skirts because they are not modest. perhaps if we wore modest swimwear it would not be a problem. funny how people think its okay to be in a pool almost naked and our society accepts it.

Are you really saying that competitive cyclist are being disobedient? I just want to make sure I understand you.

Thanks.


What I am saying is that we are indeed called to modesty. If the activity that we are taking part in requires us to dress immodestly then yes it is disobedient to partake in the activity.

[IndyRider]

What I am saying is that we are indeed called to modesty. If the activity that we are taking part in requires us to dress immodestly then yes it is disobedient to partake in the activity.
So would you say that lycra shorts and tight fitting tops are immodest? Do you think this is only applicable to those with a conviction about it, or is it for everyone?

[No Swansong]

I would call them immodest yes. I believe that modesty is required of all Christians.

[IndyRider]

I would call them immodest yes. I believe that modesty is required of all Christians.
Could we agree that your perception of this specific type of clothing is not a rule or law but an opinion?

[No Swansong]

Absolutely

[IndyRider]

So it's not wrong for everyone, just the people who have the opinion that the clothing is immodest therefore causing conviction in their own lives. Would you agree with this?

[No Swansong]

I am not sure I understand the distinction that you are making but I agree that my opinion of what is immodest is simply my opinion and may or may not conform with what God would consider immodest.

But I would not agree that one must agree with God in order for God to be right. In other words if God wants all Christians to dress modestly He wants all Christians to dress modestly, and whether or not an individual Christian agrees with this has no bearing on whether they are to be obedient or not.

I guess a good example would be adultery. God has proclaimed through Scripture that adultery is a sin. I know many who disagree that it is a sin, but whether they agree or disagree doesn't mean they are not sinning if they commit adultery.
Does that help?

[IndyRider]

I am not sure I understand the distinction that you are making but I agree that my opinion of what is immodest is simply my opinion and may or may not conform with what God would consider immodest.

But I would not agree that one must agree with God in order for God to be right. In other words if God wants all Christians to dress modestly He wants all Christians to dress modestly, and whether or not an individual Christian agrees with this has no bearing on whether they are to be obedient or not.

I guess a good example would be adultery. God has proclaimed through Scripture that adultery is a sin. I know many who disagree that it is a sin, but whether they agree or disagree doesn't mean they are not sinning if they commit adultery.
Does that help?
I don't know that your connection between adultery and immodesty truly works. The adultery has but one clear definition.

Exo 20:14 - Thou shalt not commit adultery. Adultery, as defined by our laws, is of two kinds; double, when between two married persons; single, when one of the parties is married, the other single. One principal part of the criminality of adultery consists in its injustice.

1. It robs a man of his right by taking from him the affection of his wife.

2. It does him a wrong by fathering on him and obliging him to maintain as his own a spurious offspring - a child which is not his.

The act itself, and every thing leading to the act, is prohibited by this commandment; for our Lord says, Even he who looks on a woman to lust after her, has already committed adultery with her in his heart. And not only adultery (the unlawful commerce between two married persons) is forbidden here, but also fornication and all kinds of mental and sensual uncleanness. All impure books, songs, paintings, etc., which tend to inflame and debauch the mind, are against this law, as well as another species of impurity, for the account of which the reader is referred to.


I don't believe the Bible speaks this clearly to dress. My point is your conviction/conclusions in your own life do not translate into Universal Law. As I am sure you have assumed, I ride bicycles a lot. The thought has not come through my mind one time before today that I was doing something displeasing to the Lord. In fact, it is quite the opposite. While I am riding, I believe that I am glorifying the Lord by my actions with others, conversations, and by taking care of my temple that He created. Please visit christiancycling.com and check out the clothing they sell to their members. It is a tight fitting billboard for Christ.

Furthermore, if you have personal conviction/reasons for not wanting to wear this type of clothing, I could not support you more. However, I would not take it as far to say that God has placed that conviction/Law on the entire world.

[No Swansong]

I don't know that your connection between adultery and immodesty truly works. The adultery has but one clear definition.

Exo 20:14 - Thou shalt not commit adultery. Adultery, as defined by our laws, is of two kinds; double, when between two married persons; single, when one of the parties is married, the other single. One principal part of the criminality of adultery consists in its injustice.

1. It robs a man of his right by taking from him the affection of his wife.

2. It does him a wrong by fathering on him and obliging him to maintain as his own a spurious offspring - a child which is not his.

The act itself, and every thing leading to the act, is prohibited by this commandment; for our Lord says, Even he who looks on a woman to lust after her, has already committed adultery with her in his heart. And not only adultery (the unlawful commerce between two married persons) is forbidden here, but also fornication and all kinds of mental and sensual uncleanness. All impure books, songs, paintings, etc., which tend to inflame and debauch the mind, are against this law, as well as another species of impurity, for the account of which the reader is referred to.


I don't believe the Bible speaks this clearly to dress. My point is your conviction/conclusions in your own life do not translate into Universal Law. As I am sure you have assumed, I ride bicycles a lot. The thought has not come through my mind one time before today that I was doing something displeasing to the Lord. In fact, it is quite the opposite. While I am riding, I believe that I am glorifying the Lord by my actions with others, conversations, and by taking care of my temple that He created. Please visit christiancycling.com and check out the clothing they sell to their members. It is a tight fitting billboard for Christ.

Furthermore, if you have personal conviction/reasons for not wanting to wear this type of clothing, I could not support you more. However, I would not take it as far to say that God has placed that conviction/Law on the entire world.


You say that my convictions do not translate into universal law, you are correct my convictions may or may not be in agreement with God. I freely admit this. But just as my convictions do not translate into Universal law neither does your conviction that what you are doing is pleasing to God actually mean that you are doing something pleasing to God. If indeed immodest dress is sinful then it is sinful. If you do not believe it to be, or you do not believe that you are responsible for not causing your brother or sister to fall, we can discuss these issues and look at what Scripture says about them. Is that your desire?

[IndyRider]

Once again, your examples don't seem to be seemless. But to answer your question, I fully believe that it is important that we take our brothers and sisters into account with the decisions that we make. I do not believe my choice to wear cycling clothing while cycling is one of those decisions that causes them, whoever "them" are, to fail. I also do not believe that this type of clothing when used for its intended purpose is immodest. If I were to walk into Church wearing my lycra shorts and sit spread eagle, I guess you might have an argument.

[No Swansong]

Once again, your examples don't seem to be seemless. But to answer your question, I fully believe that it is important that we take our brothers and sisters into account with the decisions that we make. I do not believe my choice to wear cycling clothing while cycling is one of those decisions that causes them, whoever "them" are, to fail. I also do not believe that this type of clothing when used for its intended purpose is immodest. If I were to walk into Church wearing my lycra shorts and sit spread eagle, I guess you might have an argument.

This so far has simply been a friendly conversation. I am certainly capable of formal debate if you so desire but that was not my intention. I am not trying to provide perfect analogy (which never exist) I am simply using easy to recall examples.

As to the content of your post. You certainly are entitled to your opinion. I already conceded that my opinions may or may not be God's in this issue however I must ask if you can't wear them in Church should you wear them elsewhere? What about Church makes it call for more modest dress? Again it is simple, if we are to dress modestly then we are to dress modestly. I cannot convince you that lycra shorts are immodest but when it comes down to it, it is not our opinions that really matter here. If God knows them to be immodest then no amount of "I don't think they are" changes whether they are or not. If God knows them to be modest then no amount of "I think they are immodest" will make them immodest.

However we have truly gone off topic here. If you wish, a thread can be started on Congregational Debate. We should not further derail this thread.
Additionally if you do not want to go to congregational debate I would be happy to converse here in a new thread or by PM. Either way it goes I don't think you or I are going to change our position. I will continue to argue that the Bible calls for modesty, and in my opinion lycra shorts are not modest; and you will continue to argue that bicycyle shorts are not immodest.

In any event I have enjoyed our discourse here.

[IndyRider]

This so far has simply been a friendly conversation. I am certainly capable of formal debate if you so desire but that was not my intention. I am not trying to provide perfect analogy (which never exist) I am simply using easy to recall examples.

As to the content of your post. You certainly are entitled to your opinion. I already conceded that my opinions may or may not be God's in this issue however I must ask if you can't wear them in Church should you wear them elsewhere? What about Church makes it call for more modest dress? Again it is simple, if we are to dress modestly then we are to dress modestly. I cannot convince you that lycra shorts are immodest but when it comes down to it, it is not our opinions that really matter here. If God knows them to be immodest then no amount of "I don't think they are" changes whether they are or not. If God knows them to be modest then no amount of "I think they are immodest" will make them immodest.

However we have truly gone off topic here. If you wish, a thread can be started on Congregational Debate. We should not further derail this thread.
Additionally if you do not want to go to congregational debate I would be happy to converse here in a new thread or by PM. Either way it goes I don't think you or I are going to change our position. I will continue to argue that the Bible calls for modesty, and in my opinion lycra shorts are not modest; and you will continue to argue that bicycyle shorts are not immodest.

In any event I have enjoyed our discourse here.
We finally agree! We will disagree forever about this one. There is no way to prove either point of view. It will be my belief that it is a matter of conviction. You will believe it is far more determined for everyone than that. I am glad that God can look at me while I am on my bike wearing my lycra shorts, smile, and know that I am His child. I also am sure He is thinking of you in the same light. Beyond that, what else matters? Thank you for the conversation.

May God Bless You,

IndyRider

[Atlantians]

We finally agree! We will disagree forever about this one. There is no way to prove either point of view. It will be my belief that it is a matter of conviction. You will believe it is far more determined for everyone than that. I am glad that God can look at me while I am on my bike wearing my lycra shorts, smile, and know that I am His child. I also am sure He is thinking of you in the same light. Beyond that, what else matters? Thank you for the conversation.

May God Bless You,

IndyRider
Is it not possible that your view is biased because you are a cyclist and wear them?

[kenneth558]

It seems the OP originator has lost interest in this thread, but some of the others of us haven't. I would like to add another twist: not only are the swimsuits of today totally immodest and inappropriate in ALL unsegregated settings, but the romantic kissing (etc.) in movies between couples who in real life have different spouses is utterly shameful, maybe even immoral. It is sad people excuse it for the sake of the actors making money from the movie.

[No Swansong]

We finally agree! We will disagree forever about this one. There is no way to prove either point of view. It will be my belief that it is a matter of conviction. You will believe it is far more determined for everyone than that. I am glad that God can look at me while I am on my bike wearing my lycra shorts, smile, and know that I am His child. I also am sure He is thinking of you in the same light. Beyond that, what else matters? Thank you for the conversation.

May God Bless You,

IndyRider


You are welcome. And I too thank you.

[No Swansong]

It seems the OP originator has lost interest in this thread, but some of the others of us haven't. I would like to add another twist: not only are the swimsuits of today totally immodest and inappropriate in ALL unsegregated settings, but the romantic kissing (etc.) in movies between couples who in real life have different spouses is utterly shameful, maybe even immoral. It is sad people excuse it for the sake of the actors making money from the movie.

All I can say is I agree.

[IndyRider]

Is it not possible that your view is biased because you are a cyclist and wear them?
I conceed that point to be very possible. Especially, if you will conceed the point that the view against that type of clothing probably comes from a lack of interest in and knowledge of the activity?

[tamtam92]

i don't like swimming. But the reason why i don't like going to the swimming pool or to the sea is that i find all that human flesh immodest and disgusting.
Moreover i just couldn't stand the looks of other people. I mean the way they would look at me. I would be totally ashamed. That would be different if swimming was segregated. I wouldn't mind that much.
BTW, what would be the point of dressing modestly all the time if people just had to come at the swimming pool to see everything?

We don't live in a world full of flowers. People are sinful. We have to show we're different. I'm disgusted when i see all that flesh given to the sight.

[Obadiah891]

I conceed that point to be very possible. Especially, if you will conceed the point that the view against that type of clothing probably comes from a lack of interest in and knowledge of the activity?
If you were living 100 years ago I should think you would think the lycra shorts were immodest. We as Christians have become so desentized by the media and fashion and people rebelling against God that I wonder how much we accept today actually is displeasing to God?
To me using the term convicted, that some people are convicted and others are not is an excuse. Because I like something or want to do it does not mean God approves. Being modest does not mean to just keep your privates covered. Its hard when we live in this world and are brainwashed into the worlds Idea of what is acceptable. give it another 20 years and Christians will think its okay to wear mini skirts and bared midriff to Church.

[arunma]

If you were living 100 years ago I should think you would think the lycra shorts were immodest. We as Christians have become so desentized by the media and fashion and people rebelling against God that I wonder how much we accept today actually is displeasing to God?
To me using the term convicted, that some people are convicted and others are not is an excuse. Because I like something or want to do it does not mean God approves. Being modest does not mean to just keep your privates covered. Its hard when we live in this world and are brainwashed into the worlds Idea of what is acceptable. give it another 20 years and Christians will think its okay to wear mini skirts and bared midriff to Church.

Well, one problem here is that a lot of these things are culturally dependant (not that I am advocating moral relativism). The issue here isn't clothing; rather the underlying issue is sexual purity. There are, after all, places in the world where even nudity is acceptable, and it is not seen in any sexual sense. I'm sure we've all heard of the story of the missionaries who evangelized such a place, in which the wife went topless so as to blend with the local culture. And I think we can all agree that this did not constitute "watering down" of the Gospel.

Of course I don't suggest that Christians in America ought to clothe themselves sparingly, since in our cultural context this would cause sexual impurity. But I think we must be careful when discussing what God approves of. It's important to identify that the issue is not clothing, but sexual morality.

[tamtam92]

Well, one problem here is that a lot of these things are culturally dependant (not that I am advocating moral relativism). The issue here isn't clothing; rather the underlying issue is sexual purity. There are, after all, places in the world where even nudity is acceptable, and it is not seen in any sexual sense. I'm sure we've all heard of the story of the missionaries who evangelized such a place, in which the wife went topless so as to blend with the local culture. And I think we can all agree that this did not constitute "watering down" of the Gospel.

Of course I don't suggest that Christians in America ought to clothe themselves sparingly, since in our cultural context this would cause sexual impurity. But I think we must be careful when discussing what God approves of. It's important to identify that the issue is not clothing, but sexual morality.
I disagree with you, Arunma. I think there ought to be a minimum standard for anyone, whatever the culture or context. God gave clothes to Adam and Eve, because leaves didn't cover them enough.

I had never heard what you said about missionnaries, and it puzzles me. Yet i think God can use people even if they are mistaken on some points (well otherwise we would have to be all perfection).

[cubanito]

If it incites lust IN YOU, it is wrong FOR YOU. If you KNOW that a certain dress, in or out of the water, incites lust in a brother, then it is wrong to willfully do it in front of them.

As for me, I confess that when courting my wife we went swimming in the ocean, and despite her modest one piece it was...difficult. Then again, being near her, or just thinking about her was...difficult. That's why 5 months after first seeing her we married. 22 years and 4 kids later, I can be as difficult as I want.

I do think that for many people mixed swimming is a bad idea, as is drinking alcohol to an alcoholic. We should be charitable to those among us who are more easily incited to lust. HOWEVER, those among us who are thus easily incitable should also be charitable in avoiding situations where they will quench the legitimate freedom of those not as easily incited. Else we'd be ruled by the most legalistic and prudish among us. Except for Arumna, to whom no courtesy is owed. :) hi there bro! :)

Without brotherly love, nothing can proceed well.

JR

[sawitch]

give it another 20 years and Christians will think its okay to wear mini skirts and bared midriff to Church.

Oops! Where I live Christians do wear mini skirts and bare midriffs!!!;)

[arunma]

If it incites lust IN YOU, it is wrong FOR YOU. If you KNOW that a certain dress, in or out of the water, incites lust in a brother, then it is wrong to willfully do it in front of them.

As for me, I confess that when courting my wife we went swimming in the ocean, and despite her modest one piece it was...difficult. Then again, being near her, or just thinking about her was...difficult. That's why 5 months after first seeing her we married. 22 years and 4 kids later, I can be as difficult as I want.

I do think that for many people mixed swimming is a bad idea, as is drinking alcohol to an alcoholic. We should be charitable to those among us who are more easily incited to lust. HOWEVER, those among us who are thus easily incitable should also be charitable in avoiding situations where they will quench the legitimate freedom of those not as easily incited. Else we'd be ruled by the most legalistic and prudish among us. Except for Arumna, to whom no courtesy is owed. :) hi there bro! :)

Without brotherly love, nothing can proceed well.

JR

Excellent point Cubanito.

As for me, I've got enough charity for both of us. ^_^

[Obadiah891]

http://www.freewebs.com/swimwear_solutions/
is a link to modest swimwear
Swimwear Solutions has some really nice designs

[EmbracingHim]

I agree with Obadiah and TamTam...

In the garden, Adam and Eve's eye were opened. This makes us accountable regardless of what the rest of the world is doing. Christ stated to be no part of this world.

This is not to say that I haven't worn a bikini at the beach or at the pool before in my life, but I do cover myself to and from and show a disinterest in attention as I am at the pool or beach for my own activity and not to entice another...

I'm not sure if this is enough or as Obadiah said...am I de-sensitized because of society?

I am sure that modesty begins in the mind and is carried through with a behavior as well as appropriate clothing for appropriate activities.

God bless all. :)

[cubanito]

In very many villages, breasts are never covered at all. There is nothing immodest for them in this dress form. On the other side, we have many other villages, mostly but not all muslim, in which everybody routinely covers even the hair on their head (women more so than men).

Modesty is situational, very local, and modest dress is very dependent even on the event.

Nowhere do we see in Scripture an actual description of what exactly is modest dress.

Whatever is typical where you're at, take the more covered up version, without drawing attention to yourself.

I believe one can be inmodest by covering up too much. For example, here in Florida (US) we've had muslim women demand a driver's license photo that doen not show even their eyes. This is very immodest, as it not only draws attention to one's self, but even challenges the reasonableness of identification. Fortunately the local govt. denied her a driver's license.

JR

[jonpantomime]

somehow i think this thread is very Amish.

[MaidforHim]

I don't see anything wrong with it. I think swim wear should be modest.

I suppose if a person has a problem with lust, and swimming situations cause them to struggle or be tempted then maybe they should do something else. But for the average person who isn't struggling with that issue I think it's good healthy fun.

I'm not a big fan of public pools, but thats for health reasons.

[cubanito]

While on the subject of dressing modestly... for my bday, my 21yo daughter took me to see the exhibit "Bodies" showing here in Miami. Many rooms of exquisitely dissected and preserved cadavers in various poses were on display.

If ever lack of clothing were THE reason for immodesty, this would be it. Most were not wearing their skin, and had multiple layers of muscles disected away. Some were merely silicone casts of single organs, from which every trace of flesh hadbeen dissolved away.

Yet these extremely unclothed bodies diid not seem to arouse my daughter who oscillated from mild disgust to fascination. For me it was a delight, not only in the beauty and imagination of the displays, and how I could appreciate the extremely fine work done (having crudely chopped up an entire human over the course of a year myself) but in explaining various things not so obvious to my daughter (and several curious others).

JR

[cubanito]

Oh yes, it reminded me of one day when I was walking through the music school campus carrying a black box. A couple of students became curious about the box and asked me what instrument I played. I replied "the bones."

Being somewhat confused as to what kind of a musical instrument I had, they asked to se "the bones", an instrument I described "as old as mankind and capable of rendering a human sound."

Oh the sick little pleasures of remembering their expresions as they saw my private ossuary...

Like the time as a teenager i spent with my uncle the coroner. He thought to shock me by having lunch on the cadaver of a person who's left eye had recently been paid a visit by a .32. I ate half my uncle's chips, leaving only the one that fell right into the guy's brains. Hey, I'm still not sure if stupidity is contagious, but I know Kuru is!

Coming home he was stopped by a cop, who for some reason asked that he open the trunk of the car. My uncle laughed and laughed as the cop pulled his gun at the sight of the 3 pickled brains in the beat up Toyota Corolla, next to the clean but well used little buzz saw.

"No, really officer, +laughtrack and screaming cop interruption+ I really am taking those brains home."

Fun times pre 9/11

JR

[arunma]

I think the last two posts require a healthy combination of,:eek:

and,^_^

[cubanito]

Trust me folks, ya can't make up this kind of stuff...

Like that memory as a 6 yo of coming to the breakfast table to find a big jar with rotting molars as the centerpiece. Some farmer was afraid of the denstist, so he gave my father a half pig to use the pliers.

JR