It may suprise but some of us still have the heart to fight Islam!

[Kas]

Brothers and sisters...

...I heard this morning that the Pope apologised for his non offencive speech today...I find it so terribly sad that the cowerdice I have encountered in so many of my brethren has reached the very top of the Catholic Church...that the holy father himself should cow tow to Moslem sentiment...this same Moslem sentiment...that he used his speech to condemn was the very thing that he cowered too...this same moslem sentiment led to a bombing of a Christian Church in the Holy Land...and yet the holy father issued no condemnation...I have lost a lot of respect for this Pope...while I a Christian seem to live in an ocean of those amkong my brethren whom would tuck there tales between their legs in the face of the Islamic challenge it may suprise many...that their are still some with the heart to fight Islam...

...am I alone...are there no other Christian who have kept their courage and honour to stand to this blasphemus religion and their Liberal lap dogs! I would rather die than be made a dhimmi...I would rather kill than see Sharia' law live over me...but I am disheartened by the apathy and wilful denial of the church at the challenge that it face and the cowerdice that it shows...therefore...lest I should become a coward I can have no more truck with the church...kerie elesion...kyrie elesion!

Kas

[ROGER459]

The past POPE, did nothing about the priests that were guilty of sins against children, WHAT MAKES you think that this one is any differnent? ? ?

(2Ch 19:2) And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to king Jehoshaphat, Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD.

(Galathians 4:16) Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

Thanks, Roger459

[Saeph]

Islam is a religion of peace. There are many muslims out there who wouldn't hurt a single fly. Just because there are some extremists out there (who have nothing in common with the Islam), don't jugde a whole religion. We (the Christians) have no right to condemn the religion itself, because ours has a bloody history, too.

I would rather kill than see Sharia' law live over me...

You call yourself a Christian but you'd kill somebody?

[msbojingles]

Islam is a religion of peace. There are many muslims out there who wouldn't hurt a single fly. Just because there are some extremists out there (who have nothing in common with the Islam), don't jugde a whole religion. We (the Christians) have no right to condemn the religion itself, because ours has a bloody history, too.



You call yourself a Christian but you'd kill somebody?


Umm, the Quran is very explicit about killing anyone who is not of the muslim faith - especially jews. Muslims that are peaceful are not muslims that read or practice the Quran.

Islam is not a peaceful religion, and whomever is telling you that is lying.

Muslims who are strong in their faith only regard a Quran written in it's native arabic language as a true Quran, in fact, it was because of Christian missionaries that Muslims conceded to allowing the Quran to be translated - because they felt so threatened on account of so many converts. People wanted to be able to understand their religion in their own language!

The 'extremists' of which you speak, are those who are precisely following the orders in their Quran. Before calling Islam peaceful, it might be helpful to read a Quran to see exactly what kind of violence it propogates.

[Saeph]

Umm, the Quran is very explicit about killing anyone who is not of the muslim faith - especially jews. Muslims that are peaceful are not muslims that read or practice the Quran.

Islam is not a peaceful religion, and whomever is telling you that is lying.

Muslims who are strong in their faith only regard a Quran written in it's native arabic language as a true Quran, in fact, it was because of Christian missionaries that Muslims conceded to allowing the Quran to be translated - because they felt so threatened on account of so many converts. People wanted to be able to understand their religion in their own language!

The 'extremists' of which you speak, are those who are precisely following the orders in their Quran. Before calling Islam peaceful, it might be helpful to read a Quran to see exactly what kind of violence it propogates.

I think you don't mean Islam (more than 14 centuries old) but the militant Islam (an "ideology" less than a century old). The terrorism of al Qaeda, Hamas and other Islamists is what you mean. They don't orientate themselves on the Q'ran but on fundamentalic "leaders" like bin Laden or Ayatollah Khomeini. Also, please don't claim that there are such passages in the Q'ran if you haven't got them.

I've some:

"There must be no coercion in matters of faith!" (2:256)

"O people! We have formed you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another." (49:13)

[mont974x4]

Islam is a violent religion. Those who claim to practice it as peaceful are either practicing a whitewashed version or naive to the true nature of the belief. Those who do not practice it but still claim it is peaceful are either decieved themselves or are naive to its true beliefs.

However....I refer us all to Eph 6:12

[Kas]

I think you don't mean Islam (more than 14 centuries old) but the militant Islam (an "ideology" less than a century old). The terrorism of al Qaeda, Hamas and other Islamists is what you mean. They don't orientate themselves on the Q'ran but on fundamentalic "leaders" like bin Laden or Ayatollah Khomeini. Also, please don't claim that there are such passages in the Q'ran if you haven't got them.

I've some:

"There must be no coercion in matters of faith!" (2:256)

"O people! We have formed you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another." (49:13)

SAister perhaps you are unaware...in our present climate under the lap dogs of the Islamic cause....namely Liberals...we are often ill informed about a great ,many things....but Muhammad the founder of the 14 century old religion you are deffending once sadi...a moslem can be killed for three reason....for adultary...for murdering another unjustly and for leaving Islam...so we have a problem with the verse let theior be no compultion in religion...the very sharia laws on apostacy are co-ercion...also...dhimmitude is co-ercion...but then I imagine you were not aware of these things...also...if you look into the history of Islam from its founder onwars you will see a readiness to use violence...in the cause of a Jihad...now...Jihad is rooted in Islam...therefore Al Quieda can claim a certain degree of legitimacy...I feel sister that you are heavily mis-informed!

Kas.

[msbojingles]

I think you don't mean Islam (more than 14 centuries old) but the militant Islam (an "ideology" less than a century old). The terrorism of al Qaeda, Hamas and other Islamists is what you mean. They don't orientate themselves on the Q'ran but on fundamentalic "leaders" like bin Laden or Ayatollah Khomeini. Also, please don't claim that there are such passages in the Q'ran if you haven't got them.

I've some:

"There must be no coercion in matters of faith!" (2:256)

"O people! We have formed you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another." (49:13)



Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain (Surah 47:4)

Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not. They question thee (O Muhammad) with regard to warfare in the sacred month. Say: Warfare therein is a great (transgression), but to turn (men) from the way of Allah, and to disbelieve in Him and in the Inviolable Place of Worship, and to expel his people thence, is a greater with Allah; for persecution is worse than killing. And they will not cease from fighting against you till they have made you renegades from your religion, if they can (Surah 2:216-217).

Muhammad was informed that warfare was prescribed for him! Though he may have hated warfare, it was actually good for him, and what he loved, i.e., non-warfare, was actually bad for him! And though under normal circumstances, fighting is not appropriate during sacred months, killing was warranted against those who sought to prevent Muslims from practicing their religion. Killing is better than being persecuted! A similar injunction states: “Sanction is given unto those who fight because they have been wronged; and Allah is indeed Able to give them victory” (Surah 22:39). In fact, “Allah loveth those who battle for His cause in ranks, as if they were a solid structure” (Surah 61:4).

Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty: Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His guidance). And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve. Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfill their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him). Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful (Surah 9:1-5).

3:32 Say: Obey Allah and the messenger. But if they turn away, lo! Allah loveth not the disbelievers (in His guidance)

Hmmm, interesting, the God I serve loves all - even those who don't believe.

4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,

4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them.

[Kas]

Islam is a religion of peace. There are many muslims out there who wouldn't hurt a single fly. Just because there are some extremists out there (who have nothing in common with the Islam), don't jugde a whole religion. We (the Christians) have no right to condemn the religion itself, because ours has a bloody history, too.



You call yourself a Christian but you'd kill somebody?

I agree there are many Moslems out there who would not hurt a fly...shame Muhammad was not one of them...or his successors and closest associates...but lets save the stories of ethnic cleansing for later...there are also a number of Moslems who would hurt our Christian brethren...I judge a religion upon many facets including my own...there is nothing wrong with that...I do not have a problem with the crusades...it was a crusade that saved Viennna after all from the Moslem Jihad....

Yes, I would kill to help save a Christian community from its persecutors...and yet you would not...alas...perhaps you should read the first Epistle of John and see what he Says about loving ones brothers and sisters in Christ!

[Saeph]

I don't see why you all think that the Islam is a homogenous religion. It is not! There are many different religious groups, f.e. Sunni, Shi'ite, and Sufi. There are radical, hate-filled, extremists and fundamentalists, but name one religion which hasn't got fundamentalists. The Christendom has got them, too:


The Christian Identity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity) movement.
Various white supremacist organizations which usually consider themselves to be Christians.
The terrorists who blew up the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City.



Yes, I would kill to help save a Christian community from its persecutors...

So you have to understand the militant muslims who kill (in their opinion) to save a muslim community from its persecutors, don't you?

[mont974x4]

Hmmm is there any other religious belief that actively seeks world domination?

[msbojingles]

I don't see why you all think that the Islam is a homogenous religion. It is not! There are many different religious groups, f.e. Sunni, Shi'ite, and Sufi. There are radical, hate-filled, extremists and fundamentalists, but name one religion which hasn't got fundamentalists. The Christendom has got them, too:

The Christian Identity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity) movement.
Various white supremacist organizations which usually consider themselves to be Christians.
The terrorists who blew up the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City.

So you have to understand the militant muslims who kill (in their opinion) to save a muslim community from its persecutors, don't you?

The hole in that argument is that these people SAY they are Christians. Anyone can walk around and say they are a Christian, but that doesn't make them one.

A true Christian will follow as best they possibly know how, their bible and Jesus Christ - the living word of God.

By your example, muslims are the direct opposite! It's the "extremists" who are following the teachings of their "bible" (Quran) and of Muhammed, and the peaceful ones are not! In the same way as above, anyone can walk around and say they are muslim, but a true muslim will follow the teachings of their sacred writings.

[bod44]

yeah, I think that muslims are going to be violent too. The difference between muslims there that are hardcore, and muslims here that aren't, is that here, its really watered down islam. Weird how america has a way of watering down religions! Islam needs to be conquered by evangelism. It is the fastest growing religion in the world. We can only fight its expansion by having a revival of our own! Terrorism needs to be defeated. Don't get mad at islam and kill muslims, kill the terrorists, save the muslims. Kinda like hate the sin, love the sinner? I don't think its a christ like attitude to want to kill all the muslims and defeat them with a military, because they can be saved by God's grace too, but if they are terrorists, they need to be defeated. Am I making any sense?

[eRev]

Speaking of the kingdom of heaven-
"...and the violent take it by force." Jesus

[knownbeforetime]

Save them if you can....

But if they come against a community of christians with the purpose of violence, I say be ready to fight....

[holo]

Thank God there are good and sensible muslims.
Thank God there are good and sensible christians.

Islam, just like christianity, can benefit greatly from the whole martyr concept, so let's not make martyrs of those who fight for their faith. If someone is blind and undeveloped, they need light and information. Let's not judge and fight muslims, let's instead encourage education. Let's talk. Let muslims see that we're not actually heathen dogs or whatever one may call us.

And, for crying out loud, let's at least not be as ignorant adn generalizing as Osama bin Laden.

[mont974x4]

They can not be dealt with and negotiated with...as a group. If you know muslim individuals personally then by all means be salt and light...as we are to be to all people.

However, never forget that our governments main job is the protection of its people.

As a husband and a father I wil protect my wife and children at all cost. That is my God given responsibility.

[Adammi]

To the OP, do I think that the pope's statements were unfounded? No, I do not.
Do I think that he should have said those things? I'm not sure, but when it comes to Islam, Christianity, especially the pope, must walk very apologetically as on egg shells.
We modern American Christians don't realize that Christianity and Islam have been fighting ever since the Crusades. When Christians gain political power it is never a good thing. For nearly 1,000 years now Christians and Muslems have been fighting a war, a war for which Christianity must apologize.

[Adammi]

Hmmm is there any other religious belief that actively seeks world domination?
Oh, how ironic that you should ask that question? The only other religion that does such things is Christianity herself.

[mont974x4]

Oh, how ironic that you should ask that question? The only other religion that does such things is Christianity herself.

I would disagree..only because Christians have never sought world domination, per se. I know it is just a matter of semantics for many but there is a distinction.

[New_Wineskin]

The past POPE, did nothing about the priests that were guilty of sins against children, WHAT MAKES you think that this one is any differnent? ? ?Thanks, Roger459


I find it interesting that the vatican is still silent on the issue of their authorized representatives with abusing those in their care and yet is quick to act on protesting ( lol ) the divinci code , women being ordained as catholic priests , and this episode .

I say that it is a great thing that the catholic pope is under the gun . It is an opportunity for noncatholics to seperate themselves by saying that the Catholic leaders do not speak for everyone . *He* spoke against Islam - not US ! :)

[mont974x4]

I'm only sorry the Pope backed down.

[Adammi]

I say that it is a great thing that the catholic pope is under the gun . It is an opportunity for noncatholics to seperate themselves by saying that the Catholic leaders do not speak for everyone . *He* spoke against Islam - not US

This is one of reasons I don't like the pope being "under the gun" because it shows just what a splintered, divided group Christianity truly is.

[New_Wineskin]

This is one of reasons I don't like the pope being "under the gun" because it shows just what a splintered, divided group Christianity truly is.

Quite the opposite for me ... I look at it as seperating Christianity from organizations with names whose leaders have titles . Peoples' loyalties to their clubs instead of to the Lord are divided but those who loyalty is to the Lord are not divided .

[Adammi]

I say that it is a great thing that the catholic pope is under the gun . It is an opportunity for noncatholics to seperate themselves by saying that the Catholic leaders do not speak for everyone . *He* spoke against Islam - not US ! :)

And just for the record, these Muslems do not view Christians as sectarian. An Orthodox Church and an Anglican Church have both been attacked today in the west bank because of the words of the Pope.

[New_Wineskin]

And just for the record, these Muslems do not view Christians as sectarian. An Orthodox Church and an Anglican Church have both been attacked today in the west bank because of the words of the Pope.

That is exactly what I was writing about in my first post . It is a great opportunity for people to announce that the Catholics do not speak for everyone . If the leaders of the groups loudly pronounce to the Muslims that the Catholic pope is not their leader , the Muslims may simply target the Catholic organization . Well , you are still discussing other organizations . That is why I am nondenominational in the first place . Their denominationalism is their own undoing .

[Adammi]

Christianity is wounded. We have wounded ourselves in the past, we are wounding ourselves currently, and we will wound ourselves again. We can't heal our wounds by playing the blame-game. Blaming the Crusades on them (the Catholics) or religios broadcasting on them (the Pentecostals) or capital punishment on them (the fundamentalists) won't solve anything. We have to solve our problems and heal our wounds communally.

[New_Wineskin]

Christianity is wounded. We have wounded ourselves in the past, we are wounding ourselves currently, and we will wound ourselves again. We can't heal our wounds by playing the blame-game. Blaming the Crusades on them (the Catholics) or religios broadcasting on them (the Pentecostals) or capital punishment on them (the fundamentalists) won't solve anything. We have to solve our problems and heal our wounds communally.

Those aren't a part of *us* ( Christians ) . Those are denominational labels that people place on themselves for the express purpose to seperate themselves . If there *are* Christians among them , allow them to leave the clubs and simply *be* Christians .

[Adammi]

Those aren't a part of *us* ( Christians ) . Those are denominational labels that people place on themselves for the express purpose to seperate themselves . If there *are* Christians among them , allow them to leave the clubs and simply *be* Christians .
In my view, Catholics, Baptists, Orthodox Christians, Pentecostals, etc. all are Christians equally and it is the job of all Christians to pray and join God's effort in uniting these Christian sects as one, even as Christ and the Father are one. I don't think that you or I are to judge whether or not they *are* Christians, but rather to embrace them. We Christians need to do more hugging and less shoving.

[New_Wineskin]

In my view, Catholics, Baptists, Orthodox Christians, Pentecostals, etc. all are Christians equally and it is the job of all Christians to pray and join God's effort in uniting these Christian sects as one, even as Christ and the Father are one. I don't think that you or I are to judge whether or not they *are* Christians, but rather to embrace them. We Christians need to do more hugging and less shoving.

Who said anything about judging who is a Christian or not ?

I cannot unite two groups that declare by their names that they desire to be seperate . You may try if you wish .

[Adammi]

Who said anything about judging who is a Christian or not ?

I cannot unite two groups that declare by their names that they desire to be seperate . You may try if you wish .
I do wish, but not on my own.
You should join me. One day, Jesus' Church will be united again as one with no denominational boudaries, bring heaven to earth. Because of me? Absolutely not, but I want in on want God is doing.

[mont974x4]

And just for the record, these Muslems do not view Christians as sectarian. An Orthodox Church and an Anglican Church have both been attacked today in the west bank because of the words of the Pope.


They do not distinguish us into groups, we are all infidels. You correctly pointed out that fact when you mentioned the churches that were attacked.

Also, it isn't because of what the Pope said.. it was because of what THEY believe. All they need is an excuse, and sometimes they don't even need that.

Are their moderate Muslims? I'm sure there is, but there silence speaks volumes when they refuse to denounce their contemporaries that attack innocent women and children.



Christians are generally quick to denounce groups and individuals that use their religion for wrong agendas.

What other group has gone off to riot over cartoons?

What Christians acted in such violence when "art" has been used to degrade our Lord and Savior?

I can't and won't deny the violence of the Christian past but that does not excuse the Muslims.

[WesWoodell]

I think you don't mean Islam (more than 14 centuries old) but the militant Islam (an "ideology" less than a century old). The terrorism of al Qaeda, Hamas and other Islamists is what you mean. They don't orientate themselves on the Q'ran but on fundamentalic "leaders" like bin Laden or Ayatollah Khomeini. Also, please don't claim that there are such passages in the Q'ran if you haven't got them.

I've some:

"There must be no coercion in matters of faith!" (2:256)

"O people! We have formed you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another." (49:13)

With all due respect - you don't know what you're talking about. I don't know who told you that, but they're wrong.

[Kas]

Save them if you can....

But if they come against a community of christians with the purpose of violence, I say be ready to fight....


...marry me...lol...you show more courage than a hundred Christian men that I have met!


Kasx

[Kas]

I'm only sorry the Pope backed down.


So am I ..he should take a leaf out of some of his predecessors! Weshould take a leaf out of some of our ancestors too...

Kas

[Kas]

And just for the record, these Muslems do not view Christians as sectarian. An Orthodox Church and an Anglican Church have both been attacked today in the west bank because of the words of the Pope.


this shoulkd teach us a lesson that we are all in this together its time to let go of our divided past...there arn't denominations anymore...just Christians!

Kas

[Kas]

To the OP, do I think that the pope's statements were unfounded? No, I do not.
Do I think that he should have said those things? I'm not sure, but when it comes to Islam, Christianity, especially the pope, must walk very apologetically as on egg shells.
We modern American Christians don't realize that Christianity and Islam have been fighting ever since the Crusades. When Christians gain political power it is never a good thing. For nearly 1,000 years now Christians and Muslems have been fighting a war, a war for which Christianity must apologize.

Actually the war stared in the seventh century and it is the Moslems that owe the Christians a huge apology...and we owe one another an apology for failing to support one another against the rise of ISlam!

Kas

[Grateful4God]

Islam is a religion of peace. There are many muslims out there who wouldn't hurt a single fly. Just because there are some extremists out there (who have nothing in common with the Islam), don't jugde a whole religion. We (the Christians) have no right to condemn the religion itself, because ours has a bloody history, too.



You call yourself a Christian but you'd kill somebody?
Muslim a religion of peace?

Do some reading, they beleive in peace for those in the Muslim faith. There are a small percentage of Muslims who do not HATE Christians, mainly those here in the United States.

Muslims in the last 300 years is where Christianity was 1000 years ago. They are using aggression to get more countries to share their faith.

[knownbeforetime]

...marry me...lol...you show more courage than a hundred Christian men that I have met!


KasxSure... Going to be in Oregon anytime soon? BTW, your PM box is full.....

Praise the Lord and pass the ammo!

[Schroeder]

Islam is a religion of peace. There are many muslims out there who wouldn't hurt a single fly. Just because there are some extremists out there (who have nothing in common with the Islam), don't jugde a whole religion. We (the Christians) have no right to condemn the religion itself, because ours has a bloody history, too.



You call yourself a Christian but you'd kill somebody? this bloody history of Christianity is not of christianity it is of the church of England and the Roman Catholic church. of faith is a individual one not a group one. we are not of a group or race of people but of individuals going to God through Christ. God said not to Murder, killing is not agianst God. as in having to fight in a war or selfdefense. though i would still have a problem killing as well.

[Adammi]

I'm eternally grateful that the Holy Father at least did attempt at an apology today.

[Adammi]

Is anybody in this thread by any chance a history teacher? Or even better a Historical Theologian? It's funny that the Christian/Roman Catholic-led Crusades are seemingly justified by Protestant posters here when even the modern Roman Catholic Church condemns them.

[mont974x4]

We don't deny our violent past in church histroy but I don't equate the RCC as the Church either...but rather part of the it.

[ronmathison]

FIGHT ISLAM!!!

( Check out the 'poll results' :

http://www.christianforums.com/t3731106-is-islam-evil.html . )