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Charles YTK
15th September 2006, 08:53 AM
The split of 135CE


Let me say that this report is meant as a Histoical commentary. It contains some statements that might be a little difficult to accept but which are Historically correct. I do not mean to imply that anyone today is responsible or party to the things that happened in the past. Sometimes it is painful to look behind us and see what happened. But our pain today does not change the fact that they did indeed take place.

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It would be difficult to see the destruction of the temple in 70 and the end of the priestly service in 135 as being less than the turning point of it all. From that moment it all changed. With the coming of the Master, Judaism split into yet another sect, the Nazarenes. It was one of several sects in Judaism but still Temple Judaism. The believers still went to temple and made sacrifices and offerings according to the law. But in 135 that ended. The writer of Hebrews saw this coming and said that which is growing old (The temple service) is about to fade away all together.

From that point in time Judaism broke off with its various sects to form a templess form of Judaism which had really begun in 165 BC when the corrupt Hasmoneans took over the priesthood. This was Rabbinical Judaism and it exists today in its various forms.

The Nazarenes or Messianics broke off and they too had to reform from Temple Judaism to Templess Judaism with an emphais on Yeshua.

One hundred years or more later Christianity formed as another separate religion which was totally polarized against the Judaisms, both Rabinical and Messianic. That of course is the subject of this thread, how did this happen?

It would be dificult to understand this without considering the total impact the destruction of the temple had on all of these groups. I believe that some of the Messianics continued in a sacrificial form of worship doing so for at least the Passover which traditionally a man could do in his own home. But eventually the idea had to occur to them all that God himself had brought an end to the Temple priesthood. Every year they all read Deut 31 the song of Moshe that was a testimony against Israel, a prophecy that they would sin and turn against God and he would turn his face against them. The prophets had also spoke of this event. And for the believers they had the profound words of Yeshua, "this temple will be destroyed and not one stone left upon the other."

It must have seemed to them that God himself had surely condemned the temple system all together. Not just the priesthood but the system of sacrifice for without access to Jerusalem and no priesthood, there was no sacrificial system. The Messianic knew the answer, that Messiah had become the final sacrifice and the final priest in the order of Melckizedek. So for them the emphasis of faith would be to see only that aspect of the Jewish faith changed, now directed to the Tabernacle of heaven rather than Jerusalem. The feast became memorial of the work of Messiah.

The Believers who were farther out and separated from the Hebraic leadership went a step father and renounced all that was Judaic and sort of picked up the Judgment of God against the priest and assumed the duty of Judging the Jewish people and their Rabbinical faith, and the Messianics who they viewed as just another sect of Jews and heretics. which would have won the approval of the Romans who saw all Jews as enemies of the empire. Day by day the Now Christians of Rome looked for acceptance within the Roman government, and possibly saw in it what they thought to be a great work of God , a union made in heaven, whereby Rome would convert to Christianity and being a mighty empire would take over the world in the name of Jesus. A man made flesh driven attempt to do the will of God as they saw it. It was a merging of Religious zeal with superior military strength, which is always open to corruption. It is no secret that ultimately Rome considered themselves the center of the Kingdom of God. They do to this day. But man can not accomplish Gods work for him. The Lord will come and bring the nations into order, and temple service will resume according to Ezekiel and others. But it will be done by God and not through corrupt flesh. The Roman Empire and the Christian religion has a history of blood letting that can not be surpassed by any other group. Through inquisitions and forced conversions they tried to force the world into their religion breaking the very moral edicts they sought to uphold. They foced conversion in the same way that Islam today would convert the world, convert or die. Yes this seems a terrible thing to say, but it is historically correct. To the shame of those who did it. I do not judge the Christians today for what their fathers did. We have no control over it. But we have a duty not to repeat their mistakes.

What each one of us should ask ourselves is; If we were standing in Jerusalem 135 CE and the Romans were running you out of the land, which group would you follow. Where would you see the true will of God being lived out. We have the advantage of history to show us some things. Would we make the same mistake again?

Steve Petersen
15th September 2006, 09:42 AM
By 'mistake' presumably you mean to say 'Rabbinic Judaism." In one dismissive motion you relegate the faith that millions of Jews have kept, in the face of the cruelest persecution, to the trash can!

Charles YTK
15th September 2006, 11:07 AM
By 'mistake' presumably you mean to say 'Rabbinic Judaism." In one dismissive motion you relegate the faith that millions of Jews have kept, in the face of the cruelest persecution, to the trash can!
I'm not trashing anyone. Just speaking about the split that came about after the resurrection. Not really judging one over the other, although I do have my own opinion on the subject.

There are three paths in view. Take the one you feel is best. Maybe they are all part of Gods plan.

Splayd
15th September 2006, 07:21 PM
Good post Charles.
That's pretty much how I see it too. I get confused that some within the movement can have such high esteem for Rabbinical Judaism while simultaneously having such contempt for "Christianity". As far as I can tell they're both tangents to the truth, with each side only embracing some of the truth and disregarding the rest. Mind you - we're all guilty of that to some extent. Personally, I love them all and hope and pray they will all come to know the fullness of G-d's beautiful truth in Yeshua.

Charles YTK
15th September 2006, 08:14 PM
Well said. And I agree.

I love them both as well. I just don't agree with their doctrines. I would be closer to Rabbinical if I had to choose, but as long as they reject Messiah it would not be the place or me. And equally I do not fit in Christianity. They have the Lord, but have not embraced his word. It is more of a religion about Jesus, about their own believing. It's all about believing without acting on faith and doing what he says.

Tishri1
17th September 2006, 11:28 AM
Hi everyone this is the kind of post that possibly could get someone in trouble, remember this article is based on and written out of someone's view of historical facts (Just an FYI for everyone here ;)...would be nice in the future to site where these facts came from:thumbsup: ).This should be keeped in mind when participating in this kind of thread...

Also remember to keep the CF rules in mind when posting in a thread like this, we ARE a family here (Jew and Gentile one in Messiah....)and need to remember to make that known when things get sticky....Personally I would always try to remind everyone of it,as I'm posting hard questions and answers, as that lets everyone know what MY bottom line is...and
YOU ALL are my bottom line:groupray:...Thanks for playing nice with me:hug::wave:

Charles YTK
17th September 2006, 11:40 AM
Tish,

I didn't site or quote all the ECF and such to keep things brief. And you are correct that it is my observation but I assure you it is well founded. I also prefaced the post with a clear statement of my intentions. I am not trying to cause a fight. Just want o know how peple view the change and any proof they have as to how it happened. Quotes from Jewish sources would be really good. The ECF are well published but the Jewish ones are harder to find. I have looked through Josephus and have found very little after the death of James.

Shane Roach
17th September 2006, 04:31 PM
I for one would love to see the bibliography of this sort of information. :) For those of us who are woefully ignorant of all things Jewish, and most especially of Messianic Jews, it would be very helpfull. :)

Tishri1
18th September 2006, 10:24 AM
Tish,

I didn't site or quote all the ECF and such to keep things brief. And you are correct that it is my observation but I assure you it is well founded. I also prefaced the post with a clear statement of my intentions. I am not trying to cause a fight. Just want o know how peple view the change and any proof they have as to how it happened. Quotes from Jewish sources would be really good. The ECF are well published but the Jewish ones are harder to find. I have looked through Josephus and have found very little after the death of James.:hug: I understand, and I wanted to also draw attention to that fact for the sake of this thread, this is a subject that could WOW alot of people and I appreciate everyones cooperation...

here is one article (it's got two parts) I like , that explains the break down between the Judiasm of the disciples of Yeshua and their greater group of Jewish bretheren during that time when Rome made a move to outlaw enough practises in Judiasm to seriously affect this group of Believing Jews and Gentiles......

http://www.torahresource.com/English%20Articles/Last%20Fiscus%20Judaicus.pdf

http://www.torahresource.com/English%20Articles/Paul%26Fathers.pdf

:wave:

Charles YTK
18th September 2006, 01:15 PM
:hug: I understand, and I wanted to also draw attention to that fact for the sake of this thread, this is a subject that could WOW alot of people and I appreciate everyones cooperation...

here is one aticle (it's got two parts) I like , that explains the break down between the Judiasm of the disciples of Yeshua and their greater group of Jewish bretheren during that time when Rome made a move to outlaw enough practises in Judiasm to seriously affect this group of Believing Jews and Gentiles......

http://www.torahresource.com/English%20Articles/Last%20Fiscus%20Judaicus.pdf

http://www.torahresource.com/English%20Articles/Paul%26Fathers.pdf

:wave:
Thanks I got those and was reading them this morning. I have a lot of Tims stuff and have most of his books. They are always really well researched.

Charles YTK
19th September 2006, 06:44 AM
Something else on the separation in the early centuries of the church.

The writings of the Apostles are filled with quotes from the Tanakh which they use to prove thier arguements of who Yeshua was and what they believe. When you move to the ECF this pretty much disappears and they quote their own traditions and authority and almost never quote the Torah or Tanakh.

Along with that change we also see that the Aposltes ministry was affirmed with miracles and prophetic words and empowerment from the spirit. Then with the ECF, with the removal of the foundation of Torah the empowerment also fades away and again it is the authority of men that is prevalent.

When the Eucharist and other sacraments are formed as a doctrine the bishop then has total control of the people to direct them in the faith, because he has convinced them that eternal life and salvation is all tied up in the sacraments which they have designed and control. To deny a man the sacrements was to condemn him to eternal damnation.

Then end result was that the movement of life in the spirit and empowerment to acomplish Gods will all founded on Gods word is replaces with authoritarian religion built on mans own Greeco-Roman traditions. It is the end of the Gospel of the Jewish Messiah, named Yeshua ha Natzaret. And it is the beginning of a new Gospel of the Greeco-Roman Jesus.