[open]Attack of the Torah

[Sephania]

Has anyone else here noticed this of late. The attack on the Torah , or those who try to keep the Moral laws of it, and the rememberance of the feasts?

I used to encounter this on the christian forums, which is natural and to be expected, but I have noticed of late the attacks seem to not be coming from the outside, but rather the inside.

Could this be part of the separation we were speaking of before?

I mean If you dont' want to follow the Torah, and hid it in your heart that you might not sin against the L-RD,to walk in it because you love him and know that he gave these mitzvot because he loves you and wants you to love one another, then why even go about claiming to be Messianic? There are plenty of Christian denominations that would be in full agreement of this stand, and would welcome someone who 'saw the light' and came out of the 'legalistic religion'.

Frankly I just don't understand the point?

Does anyone have any scriptures to show where this was prophecied? I remember something of this nature but can't seem to grasp hold of it right now.

[HadassahSukkot]

zayit,

I hate to say this, but I've seen this since even before I turned to Torah as I should have.

It is so hard to be with fellow believers and be torah observant when they aren't, because of the attacks about what you eat (or don't) and how you dress (or don't) and how you life (or don't) and when you worship (or don't).

It's actually quite verbally violent at times, and sometimes it gets where one won't feel safe with certain people.

it's a sad day in the neighborhood when you feel safer with people who don't have anything in common with you, than the people who should be lock step with you. :(

[Wags]

I was wondering the same thing about the recent attacks on torah by those claiming to be messianic. I just don't get it, unless they are just wolves trying to wear sheeps clothing.

[MattyJames]

I think we must be carefull here not to degrade or otherwise label people. In the same breath, I too am very concerned about thoes who 'claim' to be messianic, but are not, but rather, are 'Christians', with a Messianic 'flavour', if you like. This is part of the problem with not having a governing body or creed, not that I would change it, but rather these are problems that are inherent without it.

I think we must always be on guard, for wolves in sheeps clothing, for apostates, for decievers, and also for thoes who are in deception.

We must try and strike the fine balance between debate, for edification purposes, and debate for the sake of debate. Some people are just stirers, not willing to listen or reason, and this must be recognised and acted upon to suit.

In close, I don't see this as a fulfillment of Prophecy, but rather just one of thoes continual battles that inherently comes with being of faith. This same spirit was very active in Pauls day, teaching the man made Doctrines of the Oral Torah as nessarsary for salvation. Same spirit, different clothing, IMO.

Lets all stay awake, alert and ready for battle, should any level of compremise try to breed division within the body. But for now, lets start practicing! Fencing with the word is the best sport one can possibly attain to, and it keeps one fit and ready for battle. ;)

regards to all,

Matt James

[Charles YTK]

When it comes right down to it, I think the best chance for unity is in a mans own home. He must live with his wife and children in the way they believe is the will of God.
.

[Torah]

Charles YTK
When it comes right down to it, I think the best chance for unity is in a mans own home. He must live with his wife and children in the way they believe is the will of God.:thumbsup:



If I may relate an incident that happen at our congregation a few years back. We had a family that started coming to our congregation on sat, and stayed in there local Church on Sunday.{no problem) After service people would sit in groups and talk. I would sit with the father of this family and talk about Torah. Believing he and his family were coming into this truth. His daughters went to the same privet school as my youngest daughter went to. One year later people were still having conversation / disagreement about Torah that we were having a year before. This mans oldest daughter wanted to have a
Bat-Mitzvah. My daughter tell me that this girl is not Messianic! SO I talk to the girl and asked he pointed questions:
Question: Is it Ok to eat un-kosher foods?
Answer: Yes it’s ok, as long as you don’t eat it around people that do eat kosher.
Question: Is the Sabbath the 7th day and should we watch what we do on that day?
Answer: The Sabbath is the 7th day, but so is Sunday, and we have freedom to do what we want on all days.
Question: Should we celebrate only the feast days.
Answer: No! one may conceder one day higher than another day. There all the same, including Christmas & Easter, Ect…
I Go to the father and ask him if he’s Messianic? He said yes. I say, but you do not agree on these Issues, Kosher, Sabbath, feast days. He said Correct, I do not agree. I ask him that If he don’t agree with us than how & why do you call yourself Messianic?

Hold on to your seats folks, your not going to believe what he said next.

He said to me:”The lord told him to come to our congregation to show us the aura of our ways, and that we had strayed from the truth.”

[MattyJames]

If I may relate an incident that happen at our congregation a few years back. We had a family that started coming to our congregation on sat, and stayed in there local Church on Sunday.{no problem) After service people would sit in groups and talk. I would sit with the father of this family and talk about Torah. Believing he and his family were coming into this truth. His daughters went to the same privet school as my youngest daughter went to. One year later people were still having conversation / disagreement about Torah that we were having a year before. This mans oldest daughter wanted to have a
Bat-Mitzvah. My daughter tell me that this girl is not Messianic! SO I talk to the girl and asked he pointed questions:
Question: Is it Ok to eat un-kosher foods?
Answer: Yes it’s ok, as long as you don’t eat it around people that do eat kosher.
Question: Is the Sabbath the 7th day and should we watch what we do on that day?
Answer: The Sabbath is the 7th day, but so is Sunday, and we have freedom to do what we want on all days.
Question: Should we celebrate only the feast days.
Answer: No! one may conceder one day higher than another day. There all the same, including Christmas & Easter, Ect…
I Go to the father and ask him if he’s Messianic? He said yes. I say, but you do not agree on these Issues, Kosher, Sabbath, feast days. He said Correct, I do not agree. I ask him that If he don’t agree with us than how & why do you call yourself Messianic?

Hold on to your seats folks, your not going to believe what he said next.

He said to me:”The lord told him to come to our congregation to show us the aura of our ways, and that we had strayed from the truth.”
:eek:

Did you return the favor??

MJ

[visionary]

Picture this for a moment...

The lights of the garden have been turned off. People have been feeling their way around in the dark trying to find the path to the tree of life which is at the very center of the garden.

Every once in a while someone finds the swtich to turn on a certain section of the garden lights on, and it light up a part of the path. Those on the path, have two reactions... "who turned on the light, it is too bright" and "what is this that I see now that the light is on" The second set either ask those around them for answers or they ask the gardner.

The gardner has changed the bulbs in the garden so that they shine now just for those who request it. That helps those who say that the light is too bright. For the second group, He has promised to be there and to answer all their questions about what they see so that they may know.

[Charles YTK]

If I may relate an incident that happen at our congregation a few years back. We had a family that started coming to our congregation on sat, and stayed in there local Church on Sunday.{no problem) After service people would sit in groups and talk. I would sit with the father of this family and talk about Torah. Believing he and his family were coming into this truth. His daughters went to the same privet school as my youngest daughter went to. One year later people were still having conversation / disagreement about Torah that we were having a year before. This mans oldest daughter wanted to have a
Bat-Mitzvah. My daughter tell me that this girl is not Messianic! SO I talk to the girl and asked he pointed questions:
Question: Is it Ok to eat un-kosher foods?
Answer: Yes it’s ok, as long as you don’t eat it around people that do eat kosher.
Question: Is the Sabbath the 7th day and should we watch what we do on that day?
Answer: The Sabbath is the 7th day, but so is Sunday, and we have freedom to do what we want on all days.
Question: Should we celebrate only the feast days.
Answer: No! one may conceder one day higher than another day. There all the same, including Christmas & Easter, Ect…
I Go to the father and ask him if he’s Messianic? He said yes. I say, but you do not agree on these Issues, Kosher, Sabbath, feast days. He said Correct, I do not agree. I ask him that If he don’t agree with us than how & why do you call yourself Messianic?

Hold on to your seats folks, your not going to believe what he said next.

He said to me:”The lord told him to come to our congregation to show us the aura of our ways, and that we had strayed from the truth.”
Torah,

This is an interesting story. But let me look at it from another angle. Since these were Christians who were raised under a different interpretation of the scriptures they probably thought they were correct in their doctrine. You and I would say they were not, because we can read the scriptures in their Hebraic context, and we also see the examples of the people in the scriptures including the Lord and the disciples who were Kosher who did keep the festivals and the Sabbath. To these people visiting your congregation the Messianic faith was like a second language and they did not understand all the nuances.

But what was the witness to them? Were they welcomed into your fellowship as people who loved the Lord? Were they treated as brothers? Were they given love without criticism?

The way I came to be Messianic was through observing the love and Zeal my Jewish brothers had when they met the person of Yeshua. I met Chernoff and Levi in person and listened to their testimony and the Love in their music for the Messiah. (Lamb) And as it worked out the Lord had also filled me with the spirit at that time, so I was open to his word in a new way. I didn't read Hebrew or Greek, but the truth of the word came pouring out at me. And the word was being lived out in our lives and in the lives of those around us in dynamic ways. It would be another ten or more years before I would ever own or don a Tallit or observe the Moedim in a meaningful way. But I knew Messiah and I knew who he was to the Jewish people and in the context of his Jewishness. It just took some time for me to realize that these things were for me as well.

Our ministry to people has been at a more personal level. Opening our home to strangers, giving them what they need, food and clothing and such. I have never once convinced a person they should wear Tallit, or observe things like the festivals. But I have tried to show them the Love of Yeshua. I have been invited to teach at a number of churches and have done so with Gods anointing and without trying to convince them they are wrong. Show them the Jewish Messiah. Let God do the rest.

About a week ago I saw a program on the 911 attack and there was an Arab man who was there and trying to escape the dust cloud that was the remains of the building they had just run from. He had some injuries as well. The Arab fell and was choking on dust and could not see well, was disoriented. Then along came a man who was a Jew who was also running from the cloud. And this one man in his Jewish garb , out of all those fleeing, reached down and took the Arab's hand and said, "Come on my brother, let's get out of here!" He helped him to his feet and supported him as they ran together. I tell you this man lived out Torah. The Arab man said that "he never would have thought that a Jewish man would have done this for him." That is the testimony that matters. This man met God through the extended hand of love, not through a lecture on how to properly tie Tzitzi or tie on Teffilim or which are the correct Moedim and how to observe them. He saw the true God in compassion for another egardless of their status, race, religion or any other man made obstacle.

[plum]

Our ministry to people has been at a more personal level. Opening our home to strangers, giving them what they need, food and clothing and such. I have never once convinced a person they should wear Tallit, or observe things like the festivals. But I have tried to show them the Love of Yeshua. I have been invited to teach at a number of churches and have done so with Gods anointing and without trying to convince them they are wrong. Show them the Jewish Messiah. Let God do the rest.

About a week ago I saw a program on the 911 attack and there was an Arab man who was there and trying to escape the dust cloud that was the remains of the building they had just run from. He had some injuries as well. The Arab fell and was choking on dust and could not see well, was disoriented. Then along came a man who was a Jew who was also running from the cloud. And this one man in his Jewish garb , out of all those fleeing, reached down and took the Arab's hand and said, "Come on my brother, let's get out of here!" He helped him to his feet and supported him as they ran together. I tell you this man lived out Torah. The Arab man said that "he never would have thought that a Jewish man would have done this for him." That is the testimony that matters. This man met God through the extended hand of love, not through a lecture on how to properly tie Tzitzi or tie on Teffilim or which are the correct Moedim and how to observe them. He saw the true God in compassion for another egardless of their status, race, religion or any other man made obstacle.

Thank you.... my eyes are watering because this is my heart. And it is not everyone's heart. As we know, we are all a body made of different parts. And thankfully, we have so many people with powerful spiritual gifts in this small Messianic community. Some to be evangelists, some to be apostles, some to be hospitable, some to be prayer warriors... Sometimes I think that much of the conflict that arises in this forum comes from some people that live out of their gifts and forget that not everyone has the same way of serving Yeshua.

[Torah]

This is an interesting story. But let me look at it from another angle. Since these were Christians who were raised under a different interpretation of the scriptures they probably thought they were correct in their doctrine.

They absolutely had a different interpretation of scriptures and they absolutely thought they were correct in their doctrine. And this is fine. The problem was:

1) They were there for more than a year. And in that time he would bring up the “sheet coming down”. And in one year, he was still bringing up the “sheet coming down”.

2) There intent was not to seek truth, but to “show messianic the aura of our ways, and that we had strayed from the truth.”

3) Salvation was never the issue, But how to live one life after salvation.


To these people visiting your congregation the Messianic faith was like a second language and they did not understand all the nuances.
After a year he understood all of the nuances. His mission was not to seek truth, but to correct. Another problem that arouse was this family was. We had mutual friends from the privet school my daughter went to with there kids. The mutual friends that we would talk to about our Hebrew roots, would be confused because this family that was going to our congregation and calling themselves messianic. Would tell them the opposite of what we would say. And this created much confusion. {One messianic saying peters vision was about gentiles. Another messianic saying it was about all foods are OK}


This man met God through the extended hand of love, not through a lecture on how to properly tie Tzitzi or tie on Teffilim or which are the correct Modem and how to observe them. He saw the true God in compassion for another regardless of their status, race, religion or any other man made obstacle.

I don’t understand what a lecture on how to properly tie Tzitzi or tie on Teffilim or which are the correct Modem and how to observe them have to do with salvation?

Of course it is through the extended hand of love that one would find the true God in compassion regardless of their status, race, and religion. And in no way did I insinuate otherwise. And furthermore Tzitzi, & Modem, are not man made.

[ContraMundum]

I mean If you dont' want to follow the Torah, and hid it in your heart that you might not sin against the L-RD,to walk in it because you love him and know that he gave these mitzvot because he loves you and wants you to love one another, then why even go about claiming to be Messianic? There are plenty of Christian denominations that would be in full agreement of this stand, and would welcome someone who 'saw the light' and came out of the 'legalistic religion'.


..which begs the question I've been asking of "Messianics" since the start- if there is no agreement on the exact way to be a "Messianic", how can one exclude opinions of halacha that do not follow the precise version one keeps?

I mean, let's face it, the majority of Messianic Christians are really modern Evangelicals who do not speak of the Torah in the same light as others might (eg. Tim Hegg's theology is hardly typical of more established groups like MJAA and J4J). I think of the MJAA and I wonder where the kippa-and-tzitzit brigade find themselves fitting in as judges and regulators over what makes one Messianic or not.

Because the MJ movement is so young, there's always going to be lots of opinions about things for quite some time to come. It would be a shame to label discussion as "attacks" on the Torah, when in fact, the multi-faceted nature of the subject matter demands room for opinions, especially ones with grounding in both classical Christianity and Judaism.

Anyway- one thing I like about Judaism is that there are plenty of opinions about how to be Jewish and what to believe and not to believe (even among the "Orthodox"). One would hope that this charitable attitude would be brought over into Messianic Judaism, as it also exists in the historic Church as well. I encourage the open discussion I have often seen on CF.

[Charles YTK]

This is an interesting story. But let me look at it from another angle. Since these were Christians who were raised under a different interpretation of the scriptures they probably thought they were correct in their doctrine.

They absolutely had a different interpretation of scriptures and they absolutely thought they were correct in their doctrine. And this is fine. The problem was:

1) They were there for more than a year. And in that time he would bring up the “sheet coming down”. And in one year, he was still bringing up the “sheet coming down”.

2) There intent was not to seek truth, but to “show messianic the aura of our ways, and that we had strayed from the truth.”

3) Salvation was never the issue, But how to live one life after salvation.


To these people visiting your congregation the Messianic faith was like a second language and they did not understand all the nuances.
After a year he understood all of the nuances. His mission was not to seek truth, but to correct. Another problem that arouse was this family was. We had mutual friends from the privet school my daughter went to with there kids. The mutual friends that we would talk to about our Hebrew roots, would be confused because this family that was going to our congregation and calling themselves messianic. Would tell them the opposite of what we would say. And this created much confusion. {One messianic saying peters vision was about gentiles. Another messianic saying it was about all foods are OK}


This man met God through the extended hand of love, not through a lecture on how to properly tie Tzitzi or tie on Teffilim or which are the correct Modem and how to observe them. He saw the true God in compassion for another regardless of their status, race, religion or any other man made obstacle.

I don’t understand what a lecture on how to properly tie Tzitzi or tie on Teffilim or which are the correct Modem and how to observe them have to do with salvation?

Of course it is through the extended hand of love that one would find the true God in compassion regardless of their status, race, and religion. And in no way did I insinuate otherwise. And furthermore Tzitzi, & Modem, are not man made.
Torah ,

I see what you were concerned about. It was not right for the man to set up a stand in your congregation to convert you to Christianity. You would have been within your rights to show him the door. Because he had no scriptural backing for what he was saying. He didn't understand the veil let alone what it meant for it to be torn down.

I like to point out to Gentile omnivores that if Peter's vision was about food and not about the acceptance of Genitles then no Gentiles should be included in the faith of salvation through the Jewish Messiah. If they want to make it about food, then they should go and find another Messiah who eats pork and forget about the one who was a Jewish man and placed the Torah on our hearts.

Yes it is true that God gave us the commandments concerning Tzitzi and the Moedim. But can you for example keep the Moedim as he gave them? No, not at all. What we keep is the memorial of the feasts recognizing the prophetic nature and how they pointed to Yeshua.

If you wear Tzitzi, then do you wear them to bed? Or swimming? Or when having sexual relations with your wife? Or when you go to the bathroom?

I don't want to argue about what is appropriate. But look beyond it. The Tzitzi were there for us to look upon and to remember the laws of God, his will. They were upon the four corners so that each way a man turned to go the law was always before him. Didn't this point to a time under the New Covenant when God wold write the laws upon the four corners of our hearts, so that his will and ways are always before our eyes?

Sure it is fine to wear them. I do when in worship and sometimes I wear the Katan. But the Spirit has written the laws upon my heart and that is always there.

You see I have met Messianics who make such a point about these outward things that they completely forget about the fact that Yeshua is the Lord. They never once mention Him. They talk continuously about keeping the Torah and doing the Sabbath and all things Rabbinical as the right way to keep them. It all becomes a legalistic observance of Commandments rather than a living relationship with God through His Messiah.

[ContraMundum]

You see I have met Messianics who make such a point about these outward things that they completely forget about the fact that Yeshua is the Lord. They never once mention Him. They talk continuously about keeping the Torah and doing the Sabbath and all things Rabbinical as the right way to keep them. It all becomes a legalistic observance of Commandments rather than a living relationship with God through His Messiah.

Funny thing is, when you meet your typical Jew, he or she is rarely that interested in being outwardly observant. I like irony. :)

[Charles YTK]

..which begs the question I've been asking of "Messianics" since the start- if there is no agreement on the exact way to be a "Messianic", how can one exclude opinions of halacha that do not follow the precise version one keeps?

I mean, let's face it, the majority of Messianic Christians are really modern Evangelicals who do not speak of the Torah in the same light as others might (eg. Tim Hegg's theology is hardly typical of more established groups like MJAA and J4J). I think of the MJAA and I wonder where the kippa-and-tzitzit brigade find themselves fitting in as judges and regulators over what makes one Messianic or not.

Because the MJ movement is so young, there's always going to be lots of opinions about things for quite some time to come. It would be a shame to label discussion as "attacks" on the Torah, when in fact, the multi-faceted nature of the subject matter demands room for opinions, especially ones with grounding in both classical Christianity and Judaism.

Anyway- one thing I like about Judaism is that there are plenty of opinions about how to be Jewish and what to believe and not to believe (even among the "Orthodox"). One would hope that this charitable attitude would be brought over into Messianic Judaism, as it also exists in the historic Church as well. I encourage the open discussion I have often seen on CF.
Contramundum,

I agree with what you said. Even among the Jews there have always been sects that differed concerning Halacha, like the school of Shammai and the school of Hillel or the Escenes or the Saduceans.

The only way you can have a standard is to have totally righteous and spiritually anointed leaders who have been authorized by laying on of hands from the Lord to the Apostles and on down the line. The apostles didn't go about sharing their views on the matter of Halacha. They preached the word of God as it was given to them and showed God's authority in their life through great signs and miracles which they performed openly. These men showed themselves approved of God. Not as Internet Armchair theologians as we mostly are today.

Most really knowledgable scholars will not even take part in these forums and discussions. They know it is futile. But neither do we have any anointed prophets and teachers today who can demonstrate God's anointing upon them as the Apostles did. This is why I say over and over, it is our own testimony about what God has done in our life that really touches people. Not our arguing about Halacha.

Then why am I arguing about Halacha? Because too many people have placed Halacha, tradition, Rabbinical law and such above the Gospel message of the Kingdom in you and the testimony of who Yeshua is and what he has done in our midst. I try to recenter things on the Good news which is promised in the Tanakh, delivered under Messiah and practiced and taught by the Apostles.

[ContraMundum]

Contramundum,

I agree with what you said. Even among the Jews there have always been sects that differed concerning Halacha, like the school of Shammai and the school of Hillel or the Escenes or the Saduceans.

The only way you can have a standard is to have totally righteous and spiritually anointed leaders who have been authorized by laying on of hands from the Lord to the Apostles and on down the line. The apostles didn't go about sharing their views on the matter of Halacha. They preached the word of God as it was given to them and showed God's authority in their life through great signs and miracles which they performed openly. These men showed themselves approved of God. Not as Internet Armchair theologians as we mostly are today.

Most really knowledgable scholars will not even take part in these forums and discussions. They know it is futile. But neither do we have any anointed prophets and teachers today who can demonstrate God's anointing upon them as the Apostles did. This is why I say over and over, it is our own testimony about what God has done in our life that really touches people. Not our arguing about Halacha.

Then why am I arguing about Halacha? Because too many people have placed Halacha, tradition, Rabbinical law and such above the Gospel message of the Kingdom in you and the testimony of who Yeshua is and what he has done in our midst. I try to recenter things on the Good news which is promised in the Tanakh, delivered under Messiah and practiced and taught by the Apostles.
Charles,

Interestingly enough, both Rabbinic Judaism and traditional Christianity do in fact claim to have God-appointed and annointed teachers to this day. In other words, for them, authentic and authoratative tradition continues and is not frozen in some distant era.

Perhaps the confusion of this day and age is precisely because denominations are being founded by armchair theologians? It seems that the opinions expressed in so much internet discussion regarding religion are simplistic and lack the sophistication that thousands of years of discussion and debate, led by the Spirit of God, have generously given us.

Having said that, I continue here because of the heart of the people, as well as the sharing of information. I love the people I've "met" online and wish I could just fellowship with them in a closer way.

[Charles YTK]

Well said!

[Torah]

Torah ,

I see what you were concerned about. It was not right for the man to set up a stand in your congregation to convert you to Christianity. You would have been within your rights to show him the door. Because he had no scriptural backing for what he was saying. He didn't understand the veil let alone what it meant for it to be torn down.

I like to point out to Gentile omnivores that if Peter's vision was about food and not about the acceptance of Genitles then no Gentiles should be included in the faith of salvation through the Jewish Messiah. If they want to make it about food, then they should go and find another Messiah who eats pork and forget about the one who was a Jewish man and placed the Torah on our hearts.

Yes it is true that God gave us the commandments concerning Tzitzi and the Moedim. But can you for example keep the Moedim as he gave them? No, not at all. What we keep is the memorial of the feasts recognizing the prophetic nature and how they pointed to Yeshua.

If you wear Tzitzi, then do you wear them to bed? Or swimming? Or when having sexual relations with your wife? Or when you go to the bathroom?

I don't want to argue about what is appropriate. But look beyond it. The Tzitzi were there for us to look upon and to remember the laws of God, his will. They were upon the four corners so that each way a man turned to go the law was always before him. Didn't this point to a time under the New Covenant when God wold write the laws upon the four corners of our hearts, so that his will and ways are always before our eyes?

Sure it is fine to wear them. I do when in worship and sometimes I wear the Katan. But the Spirit has written the laws upon my heart and that is always there.

You see I have met Messianics who make such a point about these outward things that they completely forget about the fact that Yeshua is the Lord. They never once mention Him. They talk continuously about keeping the Torah and doing the Sabbath and all things Rabbinical as the right way to keep them. It all becomes a legalistic observance of Commandments rather than a living relationship with God through His Messiah.
Charles I understand what you are saying. And I want you to understand something. (this has been said by many here and in many ways. This is my way of saying this)
Christians understand salvation, inside and outside. And after a person comes to except Jesus as there Messiah there is little or no teaching in how to live a Godley life. It’s sort of hit and miss. And then when there is, it is from a gentile, western mind set. Eat whatever, but watch what you drink, Worship any day as long as it is not Saturday & is Sunday, Stay away from any form of “Jewish” holidays, but keep the ones we created, if you love God you will be at church every time the doors are open. And the list goes on. Suddenly! Your eyes are open to a truth that has been hidden from you for a long time. Your foundation seams to crumble except for one section, Your Salvation in Jesus, Suddenly even the name has an association with a gentile, western mind set. And you want to call him the name his mother called him. And a whole new world opens to you. And you’re like a kid with a super new toy, and all you can do is think about it, you want to become part of it, all of it. And suddenly you find some wonderful new traditions of setting the table on Friday night, lighting candles, saying blessings over your children & wine and studying the word with a new understanding. And all these things are new and wonderful. And like a kid with a new toy this is all one wants to talk about. And maybe the next Messianic generation of believers will be like what "ContraMundum" pointed out “he or she is rarely that interested in being outwardly observant.”
As others have pointed out. We are all at different places with this new understanding and it takes time.
I don’t believe NO ONE has forgotten the fact that Jesus is Lord. And the fact is most of us have known this fact for a very long time.
My Testimony
http://www.christianforums.com/t3318036-introduce-yourself-at-uncle-hirams-deli-[open].html&page=23 (http://www.christianforums.com/t3318036-introduce-yourself-at-uncle-hirams-deli-%5bopen%5d.html&page=23)


Charles YTK
You see I have met Messianic who make such a point about these outward things that they completely forget about the fact that Yeshua is the Lord. They never once mention Him. They talk continuously about keeping the Torah and doing the Sabbath and all things Rabbinical as the right way to keep them. It all becomes a legalistic observance of Commandments rather than a living relationship with God through His Messiah.
Charles with love do I say this, Sometimes I feel you get misunderstood by the way you come across, as anti-Torah.

[HadassahSukkot]

Torah, I'm totally with what you're saying ;)

We had a couple like this come to our congregation from the Seventh Day Adventist Church in our area. At first it was like "ooh cool" when they came, but then the more they came, the more apparent it was they were there to "convert and conquer" the congregation.

Our elders had to take the situation in hand and show them the door. We still all wonder about them. They were sweet people, but just didn't "Get" That we were believers; and when they did, our theology needed correction! *doh!*

Recently we had a family come that wanted an opinion on a book (which I did critique and give back) - and quit coming once we showed them what we honestly saw Scripture saying vs what they saw and were saying it did (and that was some mighty strange stuff I should tell you).... They were also coming for the same express reason.

Divide, conquer... convert... and when they saw what was going on and how we felt about Y'shua and Torah, they left on their own. I think they might come back though.. sometimes you just 'know' people..


I love it here, and it is a lot like what you said about the "new toy" - except I see it more like the preparations for getting married (sure, some of ya'll saw that coming! LOL) - because you obsess about the person you're gonna marry and what he likes and what he doesn't like and all that interesting stuff, and how you'll dress and act for him; and what you'll prepare (or he is preparing) for your wedding.. and then life thereafter.


Many of us are in that stage, and some are in the Newlywed stage (still obsessing, but learning more about the personage & enjoying the intimacy)...

And some are in the "been married a while" stage, whilst others are in that "older couple" stage.

Bear with some of us excited "newly engaged" and "newlyweds"... We're having fun, we're still learning our mate and sometimes we make mistakes..

But it is by mistakes and bumping into others sometimes that we learn the most. ;)

[Sephania]

Just for claritys sake, the reason I started this thread was very similar to what Torah explained happening at his shul. I have seen it in MJ, period, I didn't mean to limit it to this certain forum, but it is seemingly growing in MJ everywhere, forums, congregations, etc.

I know there is a verse that speaks of this but it still escapes me. :scratch:

[plum]

I love it here, and it is a lot like what you said about the "new toy" - except I see it more like the preparations for getting married (sure, some of ya'll saw that coming! LOL) - because you obsess about the person you're gonna marry and what he likes and what he doesn't like and all that interesting stuff, and how you'll dress and act for him; and what you'll prepare (or he is preparing) for your wedding.. and then life thereafter.


Many of us are in that stage, and some are in the Newlywed stage (still obsessing, but learning more about the personage & enjoying the intimacy)...

And some are in the "been married a while" stage, whilst others are in that "older couple" stage.

Bear with some of us excited "newly engaged" and "newlyweds"... We're having fun, we're still learning our mate and sometimes we make mistakes..

But it is by mistakes and bumping into others sometimes that we learn the most. ;)

that is another good explanation of why we Messianics bump heads. :) well said.

[Catherineanne]

Has anyone else here noticed this of late. The attack on the Torah , or those who try to keep the Moral laws of it, and the rememberance of the feasts?

I used to encounter this on the christian forums, which is natural and to be expected.

There are not many things that can make me ashamed to be a Christian, but this is one of them. :(

Anyone whose faith is so insecure that they have to resort to attempting to undermine those of other faiths, following their conscience and their Gd, has little in common with Christ, or anything he stood for, imho.

I respect anyone who is able to follow the Torah, and who finds blessing from doing so. :wave: I am not about to even begin to talk about any of the other issues on this thread, which I have read with interest, but with no qualifications whatever which would make it reasonable for me to comment.

[Sephania]

After two days of working on this I have been able to reopen this thread. The Thread was taken off topic from the OP and since it was mostly from CharlesYTK's article and the debate that ensued, I have split that off into its own thread, which you can find here (http://www.christianforums.com/t3690845-i-have-maintained-a-presence-my-stand-on-torah.html) and continue in that vein.

This thread however is to discuss basically why many feel that they need to pull others away from following G-ds Torah. And the recent trend I have noticed in this area. This is not about what is Torah or whose Torah, or how it should be followed , but just in general that Torah shouldn't need to be followed today.

I hope all can participate in both threads, but let's please not get them mixed up.

Todah!
Zayit

[Sephania]

Do you think this is part of the mystery of iniquity? That was prophecied to come, especially at the end?

Paul tells us specifically what the "unrighteous deception" (II Thessalonians 2:10) is for which the people depart. In verse 7, he names it "the mystery of lawlessness," a set of beliefs that is totally contrary to "the truth" (verses 10-12). This deception is "the lie" that Satan has always foisted on mankind—that we do not need to obey God's law (see Genesis 3:4; Romans 1:21-25).

[Sephania]

There are not many things that can make me ashamed to be a Christian, but this is one of them. :(

Anyone whose faith is so insecure that they have to resort to attempting to undermine those of other faiths, following their conscience and their Gd, has little in common with Christ, or anything he stood for, imho.

I respect anyone who is able to follow the Torah, and who finds blessing from doing so. :wave: I am not about to even begin to talk about any of the other issues on this thread, which I have read with interest, but with no qualifications whatever which would make it reasonable for me to comment.

Shalom Catherineanne,

Thanks for commenting.

I would just like to add ( not all directed at Catherine) I don't think it really is about undermining as much as darkness not wanting the light, it is more spiritual. Because even without anyone going to a church or group or even individual and telling them that the Torah is still valid today, they know it, but don't want to follow it, they have been made to believe it's too hard, too expensive, too restricting, too 'something' and what it boils down to is that they don't want to make the effort. I belive that G-d , Yeshua should be looked at as a husband, or as the one that you love with all your heart, soul and strength, and you will do anything that makes him happy, that brings you closer to him, because it causes you to be more like him. You honor his Holy days in celebration of his wonderful plan of Salvation, you put only the things into and on your body he said he created for that reason, you honor and celebrate each and every week that He is the creator of everything and the creation itself, thus makeing waste of the theory of man of evolution.

How hard really is it to show, with what little we can, our love for one who kept nothing from us, though nothing was too good for Him to do to bring us back into union with Him, including being sinless and yet knowing what it was like to be the most sinful thing ever?


What we do in following, in obedience his laws is trivial in light of that, but that is all we have to offer, that is our love song to Him.

I will obey --- Your will L-RD not mine.

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Do you think this is part of the mystery of iniquity? That was prophecied to come, especially at the end?

Paul tells us specifically what the "unrighteous deception" (II Thessalonians 2:10) is for which the people depart. In verse 7, he names it "the mystery of lawlessness," a set of beliefs that is totally contrary to "the truth" (verses 10-12). This deception is "the lie" that Satan has always foisted on mankind—that we do not need to obey God's law (see Genesis 3:4; Romans 1:21-25).
doesn't 1st John refer to this, very simply and very powerfully ?

and, Yahshua somewhere said, if you stand up for the torah[truth] you will be hated by men [for no reason] and kicked out of the meeting place[forum]; and when this happens, Rejoice! And be exceedingly glad.... that's true. it's happening everywhere.

[MattyJames]

Shalom Catherineanne,

Thanks for commenting.

I would just like to add ( not all directed at Catherine) I don't think it really is about undermining as much as darkness not wanting the light, it is more spiritual. Because even without anyone going to a church or group or even individual and telling them that the Torah is still valid today, they know it, but don't want to follow it, they have been made to believe it's too hard, too expensive, too restricting, too 'something' and what it boils down to is that they don't want to make the effort. I belive that G-d , Yeshua should be looked at as a husband, or as the one that you love with all your heart, soul and strength, and you will do anything that makes him happy, that brings you closer to him, because it causes you to be more like him. You honor his Holy days in celebration of his wonderful plan of Salvation, you put only the things into and on your body he said he created for that reason, you honor and celebrate each and every week that He is the creator of everything and the creation itself, thus makeing waste of the theory of man of evolution.

How hard really is it to show, with what little we can, our love for one who kept nothing from us, though nothing was too good for Him to do to bring us back into union with Him, including being sinless and yet knowing what it was like to be the most sinful thing ever?


What we do in following, in obedience his laws is trivial in light of that, but that is all we have to offer, that is our love song to Him.

I will obey --- Your will L-RD not mine.


Spot on Zayit, spot on.

May you be blessed in your obediance. I have not doubt that God is faithfull.

regards,

Matt James

[Latreia]

Our ministry to people has been at a more personal level. Opening our home to strangers, giving them what they need, food and clothing and such. I have never once convinced a person they should wear Tallit, or observe things like the festivals. But I have tried to show them the Love of Yeshua. I have been invited to teach at a number of churches and have done so with Gods anointing and without trying to convince them they are wrong. Show them the Jewish Messiah. Let God do the rest.

About a week ago I saw a program on the 911 attack and there was an Arab man who was there and trying to escape the dust cloud that was the remains of the building they had just run from. He had some injuries as well. The Arab fell and was choking on dust and could not see well, was disoriented. Then along came a man who was a Jew who was also running from the cloud. And this one man in his Jewish garb , out of all those fleeing, reached down and took the Arab's hand and said, "Come on my brother, let's get out of here!" He helped him to his feet and supported him as they ran together. I tell you this man lived out Torah. The Arab man said that "he never would have thought that a Jewish man would have done this for him." That is the testimony that matters. This man met God through the extended hand of love, not through a lecture on how to properly tie Tzitzi or tie on Teffilim or which are the correct Moedim and how to observe them. He saw the true God in compassion for another egardless of their status, race, religion or any other man made obstacle.


Thank you.... my eyes are watering because this is my heart. And it is not everyone's heart. As we know, we are all a body made of different parts. And thankfully, we have so many people with powerful spiritual gifts in this small Messianic community. Some to be evangelists, some to be apostles, some to be hospitable, some to be prayer warriors... Sometimes I think that much of the conflict that arises in this forum comes from some people that live out of their gifts and forget that not everyone has the same way of serving Yeshua.


Just when I have despaired of there being any safe place on CF for the beloved faithful serving Yeshua.

No hope still about CF. But filled with hope and enlightenment about my Messianic brothers and sisters.

And so much love.

:cry:

[Sephania]

Latreia, I am encouraged that you find our little niche on CF a welcoming place, I hope you visit us often!

:hug:

~Z