I have maintained a presence ~ My stand on Torah

[Charles YTK]

For more than ten years I have maintained a presence on the Internet in a mission to break down the false doctrines and to restore unity of faith on the basis of God's word. This has involved a bit of work as an Iconoclast and as a Toroblast. I know there are thousands who have been called to this same purpose. I say called but perhaps I really mean "Motivated" perhaps by our own zeal and enthusiasm.

However I am beginning the suspect at last that this imagined unity is not in the plan of God for us outside of direct intervention of Yeshua. Even when I look at what might have been called the great revivals of the past, things like the reformation, what really resulted was a futher fractioning of the body into even more denominations and sects with a widening gap between God's word and the doctrines and creeds of unity that replaced it.

Without direct line anointing as the apostles were anointed by Yeshua and hands layed on them, there can be no unity, because there is no righteous leadership. I thought in my foolish way of reasoning that if we could all return to Gods word as given to Moshe, then that standard would bring us together. Of course I knew from the start tht this change would never happen over night because it means overcoming millennia of false doctrine and Anti-Torah teaching. And in the end, even Judaism has it's sects and divisions like the school of Shammai and school of Hillel. Anyone who says they are living by Torah as given to Moshe is in error unless they have been to the temple and offered the appropriate sacrifices and offerings especially on Yom Kippur. This is the very heart of Moshes Torah. With no priesthood or temple service, that Torah is impossible to keep. So most end up keeping Rabbinical Judaism instead.


When we move into the Messinaic faith we must set much of this aside completely and adopt the school of Yeshua, who gives us the Torah of the Kingdom. And again even in the Messianic circles few agree on even that. We have seen this in the disagreements and arguements on this and other forums.

When it comes right down to it, I think the best chance for unity is in a mans own home. He must live with his wife and children in the way they believe is the will of God. And still when I talk with people, it is rare to find even a couple in agreement. It is rare. Many of us are in split housholds, with mixed religions or mixed beliefs. So even unity in the home is rare.

Each man must try to understand what God is saying to his heart and then love God and his fellow man in response to that. Our witness to any truth we might have is going to be how we live and not what we say. We can offer suggestions or answer questions, but we are not going to often convince anyone of anything.

So if we could convince others of only one thing, what would it be?

[MattyJames]

For more than ten years I have maintained a presence on the Internet in a mission to break down the false doctrines and to restore unity of faith on the basis of God's word. This has involved a bit of work as an Iconoclast and as a Toroblast. I know there are thousands who have been called to this same purpose. I say called but perhaps I really mean "Motivated" perhaps by our own zeal and enthusiasm.

However I am beginning the suspect at last that this imagined unity is not in the plan of God for us outside of direct intervention of Yeshua. Even when I look at what might have been called the great revivals of the past, things like the reformation, what really resulted was a futher fractioning of the body into even more denominations and sects with a widening gap between God's word and the doctrines and creeds of unity that replaced it.

Without direct line anointing as the apostles were anointed by Yeshua and hands layed on them, there can be no unity, because there is no righteous leadership. I thought in my foolish way of reasoning that if we could all return to Gods word as given to Moshe, then that standard would bring us together. Of course I knew from the start tht this change would never happen over night because it means overcoming millennia of false doctrine and Anti-Torah teaching. And in the end, even Judaism has it's sects and divisions like the school of Shammai and school of Hillel. Anyone who says they are living by Torah as given to Moshe is in error unless they have been to the temple and offered the appropriate sacrifices and offerings especially on Yom Kippur. This is the very heart of Moshes Torah. With no priesthood or temple service, that Torah is impossible to keep. So most end up keeping Rabbinical Judaism instead.


When we move into the Messinaic faith we must set much of this aside completely and adopt the school of Yeshua, who gives us the Torah of the Kingdom. And again even in the Messianic circles few agree on even that. We have seen this in the disagreements and arguements on this and other forums.

When it comes right down to it, I think the best chance for unity is in a mans own home. He must live with his wife and children in the way they believe is the will of God. And still when I talk with people, it is rare to find even a couple in agreement. It is rare. Many of us are in split housholds, with mixed religions or mixed beliefs. So even unity in the home is rare.

Each man must try to understand what God is saying to his heart and then love God and his fellow man in response to that. Our witness to any truth we might have is going to be how we live and not what we say. We can offer suggestions or answer questions, but we are not going to often convince anyone of anything.

So if we could convince others of only one thing, what would it be?

I see Man in which I find myself disagreeing with on points of Doctrine, but whos intent of heart I feel humbled by. Charles, I've come to the conclusion that it is only Humlity that will unite us, both in this world, and in the world to come. If you should Humble your heart, seek God and His perfect ways, then you will take hold of eternal Life. And myself likewise, if I should humble my heart, learn and live Gods holy ways, I will also find eternal life. So in this way, we are united in spirit, and eventually, united for eternity.

Why isn't the body then more united? Brings to mind a couple of Scriptures:

'Ye are a stiffnecked people, uncircumsised in hearts and mind.' Deut 10:16

'This is a wicked and adulterous generation...'Matt 16:4

May we all pray for Gods mercy.:prayer:

regards Charles,

Matt James

[Charles YTK]

Paul who was an upward aspiring Pharisee with many connections in high places had an encounter with Yesha on te Road to Damascus. He spent three days praying in the blindness that it caused him and repented of his Religious zeal and the attacks against Yeshua through his followers.

He spent the next three years in Damascus re-evaluating all that he learned from Torah and saw them in the light of Yeshua's mission and kingdom. He understood Torah in a completely different way. He saw it pointing to and building a foundation for Yeshua and the Kingdom, no longer the goal but the foundation underneith the Goal. He saw Abraham and the prime example of man living according to Gods will and receiving the promise God made. He saw the life of Yeshua fulfilling that very promise.

After this he said that all his Rabbinical understanding he considered to be no more than dung by comparison.

He came to the people to teach them the great mysteries of God as directed by the spirit. Not religion, mans doctrines, or the traditions of the fathers.

1CO 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. [2] For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. [3] And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. [4] And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: [5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

[Charles YTK]

Hello friends:

I just want to say that I am not Anti-Torah. Not at all. We keep the Moedim. (would anyone like to see a picture of our Sukkah from last year?) We are Kosher, I wear Tallit when in worship and prayer, We keep the Sabbath as much as we are able to. We try to keep Torah as Yeshua taught it. I study the word and the sages. You may have noticed that in my posts I often quote the Talmud, the Mishna, The Midrash Rabbah, and others. But I am not Rabbinical in my Messianic practice. I eat cheese on my burger, and I drive my car to Church, and I do not wear Kippah. Yes I do have Mezzuzot on my door posts. I sing in Hebrew and pray Hebrew prayers. But I am not from Biet Hillel and not from Biet Shammai. I am from Biet Yeshua. I try to apply the Torah as He taught it.

You can not put new wine into old wineskins. The wineskins will burst, the wine is lost and the skins ruined. And most having tasted already the old wine prefer it.

You can not place new teaching into the hearts of disciples who are already learned in the old ways. They have tasted that doctrine and will prefer it. There is no room in them for the New. Yeshua brought us the New wine.

Do you see, this is why Yeshua did nt select his disciples from among the learned members of the Pharisees. He chose mostly uneducated men, those who were still open to receive his teaching without contrasting it to the old teachings. If we are followers of Yeshua then we should emulate and immitate him. We should draw men to Him and His teachings, not to our own teachings and certainly not to those who opposed him in His ministry. It is OK to learn from them, (the sages) but our Rabbi, our master is the best, the Pinacle of Torah teaching. We should follow His teachings above all others. Allow the sages to teach us the context of the masters words. But not to replace His teaching. This does not make me Anti-Torah. I am opposed to pressing upon people the idea that the Rabbinical form of ritual is manditory for Messianics and for Christians. Only God can place new wine in old wineskins without damaging them.

We are suposed to make disciples of Yeshua from all the people of the nations. Not disciples of Hillel or Rambam or of ourselves.

[MattyJames]

Hello friends:

I just want to say that I am not Anti-Torah. Not at all. We keep the Moedim. (would anyone like to see a picture of our Sukkah from last year?) We are Kosher, I wear Tallit when in worship and prayer, We keep the Sabbath as much as we are able to. We try to keep Torah as Yeshua taught it. I study the word and the sages. You may have noticed that in my posts I often quote the Talmud, the Mishna, The Midrash Rabbah, and others. But I am not Rabbinical in my Messianic practice. I eat cheese on my burger, and I drive my car to Church, and I do not wear Kippah. Yes I do have Mezzuzot on my door posts. I sing in Hebrew and pray Hebrew prayers. But I am not from Biet Hillel and not from Biet Shammai. I am from Biet Yeshua. I try to apply the Torah as He taught it.

You can not put new wine into old wineskins. The wineskins will burst, the wine is lost and the skins ruined. And most having tasted already the old wine prefer it.

You can not place new teaching into the hearts of disciples who are already learned in the old ways. They have tasted that doctrine and will prefer it. There is no room in them for the New. Yeshua brought us the New wine.

Do you see, this is why Yeshua did nt select his disciples from among the learned members of the Pharisees. He chose mostly uneducated men, those who were still open to receive his teaching without contrasting it to the old teachings. If we are followers of Yeshua then we should emulate and immitate him. We should draw men to Him and His teachings, not to our own teachings and certainly not to those who opposed him in His ministry. It is OK to learn from them, (the sages) but our Rabbi, our master is the best, the Pinacle of Torah teaching. We should follow His teachings above all others. Allow the sages to teach us the context of the masters words. But not to replace His teaching. This does not make me Anti-Torah. I am opposed to pressing upon people the idea that the Rabbinical form of ritual is manditory for Messianics and for Christians. Only God can place new wine in old wineskins without damaging them.

We are suposed to make disciples of Yeshua from all the people of the nations. Not disciples of Hillel or Rambam or of ourselves.

Charles,

Is obediance necessary for a walk with God?

If so, the what is so wrong about 'thou shalt observe the Sabbath Day', or, 'Thou shalt not eat of them, or touch their carcass, it is an abomination unto you...'? What is 'bad' about setting down the same 'Absolutes' that God Himself set out? Who are we to argue with His commands.

I don't see obediance and love as oppisites, I see them as very interconnected. Obediance is the outward expression of ones Love for thier Master.

Given, the Kippah is NOT a command given by HaShem. If one wishes to wear it, let them, with every man bearing the weight of his own conscience. But, we are not to 'force' the wearing of the Kippah, it is not Gods Commands. But the Sabbath, that is a whole different level altogether. BTW, I also do NOT wear the Kippah.

I think it is wrong to label one as 'Rabbinical' for expecting the Commands of God to be kept by either 'New converts' or 'Old Converts' alike.

My thoughts,

Matt James

[Charles YTK]

Matty,

I agree with you. But you are misunderstanding what I mean by Rabbinical. Yes we should keep the commandments of God. Rabbinical laws are not all God's commandments and in some places miss th epurpose of God's law or even negate it. The Rabbinical laws are the Oral Torah. And while even Yeshua kept some of these and the traditions of his people, he was not swayed to keep the things that frustrated the Commandments of God, like the rituals of handwashing which the Rabbinicals thought made Kosher food unclean if not observed, or how you are to Keep the Sabbath, how far you could walk and such or whether or not you could heal or do a good mitzvah. That is not Given by God but is made up by men and enforced as if it were God's own instruction. We should all keep Gods law where we are able.

I communicate with a lot of Messianics and what you hear a lot is "I am Torah observant." Then I ask them, "Are you biblically Torah observant or Rabbinically observant?" And they say, "What's the difference?"

There are three ways to be observant that I am speaking of:
Biblical would involve the need for a Sanhedrin, a Levitical priesthood and a Tabernacle to keep the biblical Temple Judaism. Moshe's Torah is the biblical observance. It is Temple Judaism. Since none of these exist since 135 AD, then all that remains are the Moral imparatives and laws about holiness. So we should keep them as God told us to.The ten, moral laws, purity, kosher, charity, good deeds, there is no law against any of these in Christianity fa as I know.

Another way to be observant is to be Rabbinically observant. This involves taking upon oneself not only Torah but also the Oral Torah and the teachings of the sages. The sages teach us that "if one breaks a Torah command it will be forgiven, but if one breaks a Rabbinical command, they are worthy of death." They teach us that even "if a voice comes from heaven that we are not to believe it because the Torah is not in heaven, it is on the earth." And that they (the Rabbis) can change it however they think is best. They have burdened the simple law of God will all sorts of rituals and religiosity that is not biblical.

The third way is to keep the Torah as Yeshua taught it, from a new nature born of the Spirit in us. We keep it according to His teachings which speaks to the heart.

Keeping the Sabbath, practicing charity, eating Kosher, avoiding uncleaness, observing at least the memorials of the Moedim, all these kind of things are good for us. They prepare us for the Kingdom.

Teaching people that we must light Sabbath candles and do so before the sun sets, or that we must wear Kippah, or that the Oral Torah is of a higher authority than Gods word or the teachings of Yeshua, or that we must become Jews through conversion in order to be saved is wrong and I stand against it on the clear word of the Gospels and the doctrines of the Apostles. One does not have to become Jewish through conversion or take upon themselves Jewish traditions and rituals in order to be accepted in God. God called the Gentiles as Gentiles to become part of his Kingdom. We need to be obedient to His instructions yes, and Yeshua is the Rabbi who teaches us how that is to be done.

[plum]

*grin* I'm so glad we all agree. does anyone else just see all of this as two different men saying about the same thing?

torah is important, yeshua is the whole goal and point of all we do, and oral torah cannot replace nor negate written words of G-d.

did i miss something? ;)

[Charles YTK]

*grin* I'm so glad we all agree. does anyone else just see all of this as two different men saying about the same thing?

torah is important, yeshua is the whole goal and point of all we do, and oral torah cannot replace nor negate written words of G-d.

did i miss something? ;)
Yep, that's it.

Oral Torah shouldn't negate the written , but it does in some places. That we need to avoid.

[MattyJames]

Yep, that's it.

Oral Torah shouldn't negate the written , but it does in some places. That we need to avoid.

Yes agreed :thumbsup: Ok that ones sorted out.

Next. The Torah of Moshe? No, the Torah of God. I think that we also need to be carfull as not to jumble the two up. God gave the Torah, not Moshe, I think we can agree on that. Just had to make the point.

'Moshe's Torah is the biblical observance. It is Temple Judaism.'

I'm no scholer, but that sounds wrong to me. Temple Judaisim? No, Moshe's Torah is the Holy Word of God. The bread that Yeshua was talking aobut. They are spiritual words, living words, they are the Seed that the sower plants. I think this is wear we differ? I view the New Covenant as simply a re-instatement of the Old Covenant, with the change of the Preisthood.

I view it like this. The Covenant made at Sinai are the general terms. The Levitical Preisthood is the 'Special Conditions'. Likewise the New Covenat, has the same 'general terms', with the new Preisthood as the 'Special Conditions'.

Q: Where are the Conditions of the New Covenant laid out? Where are the Terms?

We the terms of the 'Old Covenant' clearly in the OT. You obey my voice, I'll be a sheild unto you, I'll bless you, I'll curse them who curse you, I'll heal you, I'll give you peace (Physical and spiritual), I'll give you food (physical and spiritual)...we all know the referances.

But where is such laid out in the New Covenant?

Secondly, what 'Torah' was God talking about in Jer 31:31, and the writer of Heb 8:8?

Shabbat Shalom Charles,

Matt James

[Charles YTK]

'Moshe's Torah is the biblical observance. It is Temple Judaism.'

I'm no scholer, but that sounds wrong to me. Temple Judaisim? No, Moshe's Torah is the Holy Word of God. The bread that Yeshua was talking aobut. They are spiritual words, living words, they are the Seed that the sower plants. I think this is wear we differ?

Matt, The Covenant is the promise. The Torah is the stipulation of how to live within that covenant. The old covenant was dependent upon Israels obedience to the laws. It was Bilateral. If Israel failed, as they did, the covenant was revoked, as it was.

The Torah of Moshe (God to Moshe if you must) is centered on a sacrificial service, administered by the Levite priesthood. Everything pivots around that and especially Atonement sacrifice which clears the nation from sin and restores her year by year.

Look at Abraham. He had a covenant. And he had a Torah as the scriptures say Abraham kept all the laws statutes and ordinances. Gen 26:4,5. But he did not have the same Torah as was given to Moshe. There is no Temple, no furnature for it, no brazen altar, no priesthood, no feast days. No Kosher diet or Tzitzi ect. Just the Moral imparatives and charity.


I view the New Covenant as simply a re-instatement of the Old Covenant, with the change of the Preisthood.


Then you have missed the point. In Jeremiah God says it is a NEW Covenant, and it is NOT LIKE the one given to Moshe at Sinai. NOT LIKE IT. He says NEW and the word he uses does not mean renewed or same one slightly changed. It means NEW as in never before seen. Now as I said above, the Sinai covenant was Bilateral, it has things that Israel must do in order to maintain their covenant standing. The NEW covenant is Unilateral. We do nothing to earn it or to preserve it. It is God's work all the way. He says when He makes the covenant that:

He will write the laws of that covenant on our hearts
He will cause everyone in the covenant to know Him
He will put His Spirit in us
He will forgive our sins
He will put a new heart in us
He will cause us to obey Him.
He will make Israel and Judah into one people called Israel

And just like any covenant there is a Torah for it. Our Torah under the new covenant is similar to that of Sinai, because it was given by the same God. But it is not exactly the same. It is not different only because of the priesthood. Didn't Yeshua tell us about the differences between the old and the new in Matt 5-7? Our covenant is not effective only in action but also in our hearts. We are judged by the way we think not just how we act. This is why it can only be kept by a complete change of our minds, through rebirth in the spirit. The old covenant did not have this feature. Please don't quote the often Quoted Torah text that says that "the commandments are near you even upon your hearts", because it also says "That you may do them and obey them or else I will turn away from you." The New Covenant does not say this. It says you are a new creature in Messiah through the spirit and that because we have the spirit of God in us, we DO please God and he will not forsake us ever no matter what happens. The New Covenant is not based on the blood of animals and our obedience in the flesh. It is based on the blood of Yeshua and upon HIS obedience even unto death for us.




Q: Where are the Conditions of the New Covenant laid out? Where are the Terms?

In the Gospels, in the words of Yeshua, in the promises of God through the prophets who spoke of this new covenant that was coming, in the lives and testimony of the Apostles. The New Covenant is not a codice of rules like the old covenant. It is summed up in this, "You must be born again" It is new life in Yeshua through rebirth by the spirit of God that makes us into New creatures who are in the image of the firstborn son.

We the terms of the 'Old Covenant' clearly in the OT. You obey my voice, I'll be a sheild unto you, I'll bless you, I'll curse them who curse you, I'll heal you, I'll give you peace (Physical and spiritual), I'll give you food (physical and spiritual)...we all know the referances.

Yes Bilateral, always dependent upon the performace of Israel as a nation and as individuals. When Israel sinned, the entire nation was exiled not just the sinners.

In the New he says I will put a new heart in you one of flesh rather than hard stone, I will put my Holy Spirit in you all, not just in my anointed king and you will all know me and I will write my laws on you inward parts, upon your heart and in your mind so that you live as I have made you to live.



Secondly, what 'Torah' was God talking about in Jer 31:31, and the writer of Heb 8:8?

The NEW Covenant, the very same Covenant that Yeshua made for us. He spoke (anounced) the covenant at the Seder, "Take this cup all of you and drink, for this is my blood of the new covenant poured out for you." He literally poured that blood out on the cross and took it to the mercy seat in the Tabernacle of heaven and applied it there for us all. And on Shavuot, on the very same day upon which the old covenant had been given in Sinai, he brought in the New Covenant and filled all men with his spirit and wrote his laws upon their hearts and made us all to know him, the one true God. This did not ever happen to all the people in the old covenant. It is all New Covenant, a better covenant, built upon better promises, sealed not with the blood of animals but with the pure and precious blood of Yeshua the Messiah.

Matt, if what I am saying is not true, If the writer of Hebrews is not telling the truth, if Paul was a liar, then Yeshua was not the Messiah and failed in his mission and we all must return to Sinai and raise up a priethood to intercede for us for our sins are not covered or cleansed. It is the New covenant which says "I will be God to them and I will remember their sins no more."

[visionary]

And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments. 1 Ex 34:27,28
Why did God make the distinction by that which is written by God's finger on stone and by Moses pen on parchment? When I read someone making comment on the Torah of Moses, I think of those things written on parchment, and when I hear the Torah of God, I think it is all of it together, both that which He spoke and Moses wrote and that which He wrote on stone.

[Steve Petersen]

Charles,

You seem to forget that Abraham made sacrifices as did Cain and Abel.

No sacrifice ever atoned for sin without repentance.

Show me where God revoked His covenant with Israel.

[Wags]

How can the "new covenant" be in place already if we are still teaching and being taught about the Holy One, blessed be He, since one of the conditions of the "new covenant" is that no longer will there be any teaching because ALL will know G-d?

[Tishri1]

Hello friends:

I just want to say that I am not Anti-Torah. Not at all. We keep the Moedim. (would anyone like to see a picture of our Sukkah from last year?) We are Kosher, I wear Tallit when in worship and prayer, We keep the Sabbath as much as we are able to. We try to keep Torah as Yeshua taught it. I study the word and the sages. You may have noticed that in my posts I often quote the Talmud, the Mishna, The Midrash Rabbah, and others. But I am not Rabbinical in my Messianic practice. I eat cheese on my burger, and I drive my car to Church, and I do not wear Kippah. Yes I do have Mezzuzot on my door posts. I sing in Hebrew and pray Hebrew prayers. But I am not from Biet Hillel and not from Biet Shammai. I am from Biet Yeshua. I try to apply the Torah as He taught it.

You can not put new wine into old wineskins. The wineskins will burst, the wine is lost and the skins ruined. And most having tasted already the old wine prefer it.

You can not place new teaching into the hearts of disciples who are already learned in the old ways. They have tasted that doctrine and will prefer it. There is no room in them for the New. Yeshua brought us the New wine.

Do you see, this is why Yeshua did nt select his disciples from among the learned members of the Pharisees. He chose mostly uneducated men, those who were still open to receive his teaching without contrasting it to the old teachings. If we are followers of Yeshua then we should emulate and immitate him. We should draw men to Him and His teachings, not to our own teachings and certainly not to those who opposed him in His ministry. It is OK to learn from them, (the sages) but our Rabbi, our master is the best, the Pinacle of Torah teaching. We should follow His teachings above all others. Allow the sages to teach us the context of the masters words. But not to replace His teaching. This does not make me Anti-Torah. I am opposed to pressing upon people the idea that the Rabbinical form of ritual is manditory for Messianics and for Christians. Only God can place new wine in old wineskins without damaging them.

We are suposed to make disciples of Yeshua from all the people of the nations. Not disciples of Hillel or Rambam or of ourselves.
I can see your point Charles, at times I think the misunderstanding is that I (we) see it simpler though... I dont put a distinction between Yeshua's teaching and what ABBA gave Moses...Maybe everysingle word is not included in Yeshua's Teaching and yes I agree that Rabbinics have changed alot of it and yes alot was changed thru the destruction of the Temple but I still dont see the need to have two or three ways to describe it...If Yeshua had separated himself from the Torah ABBA gave Moses and told us to do the same, then maybe I would have cause to do like wise...But I dont see a command or any suggestion that Yeshua deleated, altered, replaced or anything those words...Do all those words have to be running today in order for it to be called Torah? I dont think so...IMO it is eternal yet maybe not visible or "do-able" for reasons beyond our understanding...but that still doent mean we have to rename what ABBA set in motion when he first opened his mouth to speak...Yeshua didnt say his words were something new and different and NOT Torah, I think he said pretty much that heaven and earth would pass away first....And I know you know this too, that is why I always say we are talking oranges and oranges here, not apples and oranges....seriously the way I see it is the same as you only I dont choose to call it a different Torah...I think we are all obeying and seeking to follow after the same thing we just have a difference in the Title of what that is....JMO

I bet if we had a poll of all your basic beliefs non of us would see any major difference between them(((hugs)))

[Tishri1]

Teaching people that we must light Sabbath candles and do so before the sun sets, or that we must wear Kippah, or that the Oral Torah is of a higher authority than Gods word or the teachings of Yeshua, or that we must become Jews through conversion in order to be saved is wrong and I stand against it on the clear word of the Gospels and the doctrines of the Apostles. One does not have to become Jewish through conversion or take upon themselves Jewish traditions and rituals in order to be accepted in God. God called the Gentiles as Gentiles to become part of his Kingdom. We need to be obedient to His instructions yes, and Yeshua is the Rabbi who teaches us how that is to be done.see this is what I mean by saying we dont have to rename the Torah to practise it your way...Tell me anyone who reads this if this would describe you? I doubt anyone here walks this way you just described and so you see WE ARE ALL Following after ABBA and the Torah he gave to us....I agree with every part you say Charles, just not the main part, the part that says we have to call it by a different name...

[Charles YTK]

Charles,

You seem to forget that Abraham made sacrifices as did Cain and Abel.

No sacrifice ever atoned for sin without repentance.

Show me where God revoked His covenant with Israel.
Steve,
I understand that Abraham offered Sacrifices. But he none of the stuctures and offices that are prescribed in the Torah given to Moshe. I know people have strained at the scriptures to show that Abraham had the same Torah, but it is not there. Did he have a tabernacle and Levites. Levites are still in his loins, three generations away. There was a high priest who was Melhezedek, and he was a Gentile not a Levite. There is no Passover sacrifice or feast of unleavened bread. There is no indication that Abraham wore Tzitzi or circumcised his sons until it was given to him.

Where did God revoke his covenant with them?
Israel broke the Covenant;

Jer 31[32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

DT 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a-whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. [17] Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? [18] And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods. [19] Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel. [20] For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant.


There are others. Let me ask you, if God was still honoring the covenant made through Moshe whould he take away the people's ability to keep the covenant and to perform its Laws? But that is exactly what God did, he destroyed the temple, removed the priesthood and since 135 AD no sacrifices have been offered no Atonement made. Their only choice was to seek Yesha the one whom God sent to make the New Covenant.

This removal of the temple was God's work and Yeshua knew it was to be done and spoke of it extensively in advance.

Heb 8: [6] But now hath he (Yeshua) obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. [7] For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

The New Covenant WAS established. That is a fact.

The old covenant was finished:

Heb 8[13] In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Some will say that is was waxing old but not done away with and that it still isn't done away with. In the context of the writer the sacrificial service was still taking place because even after the Temple was destroyed the priests continued to offer sacrifices on the ruins of the fallen temple until 135 AD when finally they too were removed and the Sanhedrin relocated to Yavneh. Once they were removed from Jerusalem the sacrifices were fininshed. Rabbinical rituals were then written to take the place of the details of Torah.

When the Sinai Covenant was given it did no damage to the Abrahamic covenant. In fact the Sinai covenant was the mechanism that through which the promises of the Abrahamic covenant would be realized. The same principle is true of the New covenant. It replaced the Sinai Covenant but has better promises and makes a way for that which was only in types and shadows to become realities in our lives.

[Charles YTK]

How can the "new covenant" be in place already if we are still teaching and being taught about the Holy One, blessed be He, since one of the conditions of the "new covenant" is that no longer will there be any teaching because ALL will know G-d?
To know God is a reference to intimacy as in a marriage. It does not mean common knowledge it means to know someone from the heart. And those who are saved by Yeshua, cleansed by his blood and filled with His spirit do have this intimate relationship.

The very fact that you have his spirit is proof positive that you are in the New Covenant because this was not given in the old covenant. Do you remember that only the judges, kings and the 70 elders, or specially appointed men received this spirit. The common man did not receive this. This is why it is so astounding in the New Testament scriptures when this happens. And even more astounding when it happens to Gentiles. It was unheard of. Look at the changes in Peter from before the Shavuot to how he was empowered and knowledgable after the outpouring of the spirit. He even quotes Joel in his sermon and Joel says that this out pouring of the spirit on ALL flesh (who have faith) had not ever happened yet and would not until the end of days began.

We have not yet seen the fulness of this new covenant and will not until Yeshua returns. We are firstfruits of the New Covenant. We live in the Kingdom even now knowing who our king is. We have his laws written on our hearts and not serving the letter of the law. When Yeshua returns the full harvest will take place and Israel will be restored as one nation. We are the first fruits, the proof, the early harvest and a deposit of what is yet to come. Then even our frail sick human bodies will be redeemed. So we don't have it all yet. But we have what we need to accomplish his will and to make disciples of all nations.

[MattyJames]

Yep, that's it.

Oral Torah shouldn't negate the written , but it does in some places. That we need to avoid.

Matt, The Covenant is the promise. The Torah is the stipulation of how to live within that covenant. The old covenant was dependent upon Israels obedience to the laws. It was Bilateral. If Israel failed, as they did, the covenant was revoked, as it was.

The Covenant is the promise? Sorry!? If it is of promise, then it is no more of Covenant. The Basics of a Covenant is that it is made between at least two parties, with conditions for both parties. I think your reasoning is biblically unsustainable and illogical.

The Covenant is a 'Contract'. The promises are the benefits that result from the fulfillment of that Contract, by the adhereance of both parties to the conditions laid therein.

Otherwise, you must support Once Saved, Always Saved?? I didn't think you did?

The Torah of Moshe (God to Moshe if you must) is centered on a sacrificial service, administered by the Levite priesthood. Everything pivots around that and especially Atonement sacrifice which clears the nation from sin and restores her year by year.

First of all I wish to quote a referance from Jerimiah 7:22 'I spoke not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought then out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices; 8) but this one thing commanded I them saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God and you shall be my people; and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.'

We can see this, as the first Covenant was made between the Chapters of Ex 19-24, and the Levitical Preisthood wasn't even mentioned! It was instituted after the Covenant. All the Lord wanted was that they may obey His voice.

Secondly, if the Levitical Preisthood was needfull for the fulfilling of the Covenant, (which must be done in order for one in to be right standing with God), then was Daniel a part of the Old Covenant or not? Did God consider him (Daniel) as 'in breech' of the Covenant, or not?The question is rehtorical.

Look at Abraham. He had a covenant. And he had a Torah as the scriptures say Abraham kept all the laws statutes and ordinances. Gen 26:4,5. But he did not have the same Torah as was given to Moshe. There is no Temple, no furnature for it, no brazen altar, no priesthood, no feast days. No Kosher diet or Tzitzi ect. Just the Moral imparatives and charity.

There was a preisthood. There was Kosher. There was a system of Sacrifice. Yes no, temple or 'brazen alter' or feast days (although some would disagree with this one).

Ok so Abraham had the Ten Commands, Kosher, and Sacrifices. Apart from the Moedim, (which some believe he did have), his Torah is very much like the one Given at Sinai.

Further still, you and I both know that the Covenant given to Abraham was before, and is not superceeded by the Mosaic Covenant, made at Sinai. This is not on debate, IMO.


Then you have missed the point. In Jeremiah God says it is a NEW Covenant, and it is NOT LIKE the one given to Moshe at Sinai. NOT LIKE IT. He says NEW and the word he uses does not mean renewed or same one slightly changed. It means NEW as in never before seen. Now as I said above, the Sinai covenant was Bilateral, it has things that Israel must do in order to maintain their covenant standing. The NEW covenant is Unilateral. We do nothing to earn it or to preserve it. It is God's work all the way. He says when He makes the covenant that:

He will write the laws of that covenant on our hearts
He will cause everyone in the covenant to know Him
He will put His Spirit in us
He will forgive our sins
He will put a new heart in us
He will cause us to obey Him.
He will make Israel and Judah into one people called Israel.

The New Covenant is NEW! I won't fall into the Idea that it is not. I understand that if there is a breech of a Covenant, it is made void! Tear it up and toss it! A new one must be written up!
So what is so 'New' about this 'New Covenant'. The difference in the Propitiation! Before it was 'the blood of bulls and goats', now it is the Blood of the precious Lamb of God, even Yeshua HaMessiah! That is all! The old system of atonement is no longer acceptable before God. This one cannot be 'mocked' or 'Broken' or 'polluted', becuase it is ministered by the True high priest, who was from the begining, and who is ever righteous and true and just. This time man can't stuff it up!!!

I repeat, there is no such thing as a 'Unilateral' Covenant. The term is an oxymoron, self canceling. I thought this was obvious.

Secondly, I don't believe that 'it is Gods work all the way'. It is by Gods grace that we have the oppertunity to enter into this Covenant, yes, but it is our choice! We must obey unto righteousness (Rom 6:16) God opens the door, but we must walk in. Repentance is a gift of God, but we must recieve it for it to be enacted upon. And what proves repentance 'bring ye forth therefore works meet for repentance' (Matt 3:8) It requires Obediance.


And just like any covenant there is a Torah for it. Our Torah under the new covenant is similar to that of Sinai, because it was given by the same God. But it is not exactly the same. It is not different only because of the priesthood. Didn't Yeshua tell us about the differences between the old and the new in Matt 5-7? Our covenant is not effective only in action but also in our hearts. We are judged by the way we think not just how we act. This is why it can only be kept by a complete change of our minds, through rebirth in the spirit. The old covenant did not have this feature. Please don't quote the often Quoted Torah text that says that "the commandments are near you even upon your hearts", because it also says "That you may do them and obey them or else I will turn away from you." The New Covenant does not say this. It says you are a new creature in Messiah through the spirit and that because we have the spirit of God in us, we DO please God and he will not forsake us ever no matter what happens. The New Covenant is not based on the blood of animals and our obedience in the flesh. It is based on the blood of Yeshua and upon HIS obedience even unto death for us.

Once again, I totally disagree. The 'New Covenant' is a two way deal. 'Messiah: I'll die for you, but you must die for me' (luke 14:33). Yes Charles, God will forsake us, but only when we forsake Him. (Heb 10:26, 2 Pet 2:20). The 'New Covenant' is not a bag of goodies, waiting to be received. It is an agreement, draw between God and man. With obligations on each side. If you obey, 'I will never leave you or forsake you'. I my opinion, the New Covenant, just like that made with Abraham, and that made at Sinai, is all about obediance. Otherwise, why are we not all apart of the nearest Christain Church? Why do our little thing over here, if not for obediance? If its not for obediance, then it is all in vain!

Secondly, look at Messiahs response to the Rich Mans question: 'What must I do to inherit eternal life?'; Messiah: 'Keep the Commandments'. Ie: Obey the Commandments.
Just one of many such references. 'If they hear not Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be pursuaded though one rose from the dead.' Luke 16:31.

Thirdly, Messiah only expounded on Torah. But have you not read; 'Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thy Heart...' Lev 19:17. I conclude that the Old Covenant is as much of the Heart as is the New. Otherwise God is a respector of persons.

In the Gospels, in the words of Yeshua, in the promises of God through the prophets who spoke of this new covenant that was coming, in the lives and testimony of the Apostles. The New Covenant is not a codice of rules like the old covenant. It is summed up in this, "You must be born again" It is new life in Yeshua through rebirth by the spirit of God that makes us into New creatures who are in the image of the firstborn son.


And what about Johns summary; 'And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His Commandments.He that saith I know Him and keep not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.' 1 John 2:3,4

The rebirth is by the seed. The seed is the word of God. It is by the in-planting of the seed, that one is Born again. For it is this word that gendereth to obediance, and obediance unto eternal life. 'for man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.' Deut 8:3. Now when God says 'live', He is not talking in the natural, but rather the spiritual and it is this writing of Gods Torah upon our hearts that is the work of the spirit. But such is only made manifest through outward works of righteousness.

Yes Bilateral, always dependent upon the performace of Israel as a nation and as individuals. When Israel sinned, the entire nation was exiled not just the sinners.

In the New he says I will put a new heart in you one of flesh rather than hard stone, I will put my Holy Spirit in you all, not just in my anointed king and you will all know me and I will write my laws on you inward parts, upon your heart and in your mind so that you live as I have made you to live.

I am suprised that you say these above paragraphs.
There are soooo many refernaces in regards to the condition of the heart, and its relevance to one obediance to torah. Deut 4:9. 4:29, 4:39. I have a list of about 20 verses that refer to the heart condition.

The NEW Covenant, the very same Covenant that Yeshua made for us. He spoke (anounced) the covenant at the Seder, "Take this cup all of you and drink, for this is my blood of the new covenant poured out for you." He literally poured that blood out on the cross and took it to the mercy seat in the Tabernacle of heaven and applied it there for us all. And on Shavuot, on the very same day upon which the old covenant had been given in Sinai, he brought in the New Covenant and filled all men with his spirit and wrote his laws upon their hearts and made us all to know him, the one true God. This did not ever happen to all the people in the old covenant. It is all New Covenant, a better covenant, built upon better promises, sealed not with the blood of animals but with the pure and precious blood of Yeshua the Messiah.

Matt, if what I am saying is not true, If the writer of Hebrews is not telling the truth, if Paul was a liar, then Yeshua was not the Messiah and failed in his mission and we all must return to Sinai and raise up a priethood to intercede for us for our sins are not covered or cleansed. It is the New covenant which says "I will be God to them and I will remember their sins no more."

Charles, Gods spirit was always available and in the same free way as was seen on Shavuot 2000 or so years ago. What happened at Shavout (AD) did happen and it happened at Mt Sinai. The two are mirror images of each other and the spirit was just as freely handed out. I see no difference between the two.

I will also state that just because I read the writings of Hebrews in a different light than you, doesn't mean that I make void those writings. I believe my arguments are very sustainable throughout the writings of the Brit Hadasha, and of course, agree with the Tenach as well. I also think that there is a fair deal of missunderstanding here. Never once have I ever hinted to the re-establishment of the Levitical Priesthood. Rather, that the New Covenant is built on the same 'spiritual drink and meat' that the Children of Israel partook of in the Wilderness. (1 Cor 10:1)

I hope that I have made myself a little more clearer.

I must now retire as it is that time of the morning!! :yawn:

regards, and shabbath shalom to all.

Matt James

[Charles YTK]

see this is what I mean by saying we dont have to rename the Torah to practise it your way...Tell me anyone who reads this if this would describe you? I doubt anyone here walks this way you just described and so you see WE ARE ALL Following after ABBA and the Torah he gave to us....I agree with every part you say Charles, just not the main part, the part that says we have to call it by a different name...
Tish,

I read both of your posts and will respond to both here. I am not the one calling it by a different name. This was done by God. New Covenant is his term. I say Kingdom Torah a term that I coined to explain the differences between the Sinai Torah and the Torah of Yeshua. As the writer of Hebrews says, where in the Sinai Torah does it call for a priest from any tribe other than Levites? It doesn't. So in order for our high priest to be both king and priest, and Kings are from Judah, there had to be a change in Torah. Torah is as Shimson says Transformed.

The Sinai Torah was the mechanism through which the promises of the Abrahamic covenant would be realized. The New Covenant is the mechanism through which the Davidic Kingdom of Yeshua anticipated in the Sinai covenant would be realized and the shadows fulfilled into realities.

We no longer serve the shadow. We have met the Shadow maker, the one casting the shadow.

Someone above said, "Yeshua did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill." Yes, and that means to bring to its full meaning, to properly and fully establish. It means to take what was before only shadows and types and make them realities. The New Covenant allows us to realize the promises made in the former covenants.

The changes in Torahwill continue. Look at Ezekiel and we see there is a new Temple in the Millenial Kingdom, but there are changes. There are sacrifices but there is no tonement sacrifice ever again. Zadokites are priests again. And the King from Judah is the high priest.

Covenant is the promise. Torah is the stipulaion of how to live within the covenant.

We are living under the New Covenant if indeed Yeshua is our Messiah. And the Torah is transformed already such that he is not only King but also our high priest. The laws are not on stone, they are written our hearts. We live not by the flesh, but have the life of the spirit in us.

So it is more than just semantics IMMHO. It is a transformation of the Torah into one that supports the Kingdom of Yeshua that is springing up all over the earth and preparing for the return of the King.

I hope you see the difference here.

[Charles YTK]

Matt,

I don't mean to insult, but I think you do not understand Blood covenant in the terms of the Hebrews who became Israel.

What did Abraham have to do to maintain Gods covenant with him? Nothing. It was Gods promise and God would keep it. Abraham had only to believe. Circumcision was the sign that he believed, the sign of those in the covenant. (This is stated clearly by Paul)


In Sinai Israel must do many things to maintain their status within the Covenant. and the sign of the covenant is Sabbath keeping. See Deut 31 how conditional it is.

DT 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a-whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. [17] Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them;


In the New Covenant the sign is the spirit in us which we do not earn. it is Given to us because we believed.

You did nothing to earn your salvation and you can do nothing to maintain it. All you can do is have trusting faith.

Covenant is a contract, and a contract is a promise. Yes it is between at least two parties. The conditions can vary according to the stipulation. Even the Sages who you profess understood this.

I have said it above and now again so that you do not miss it:

God made a covenant with Abraham. The Sinai covenant was the mechanism through which the promises to Abraham would be realized. The New Covenant is the Mechanism through with the shadows and types pointing to Messiah and the Davidic Kingdom would be realized and become realities.

The Covenants bring to fulness, Fulfill, the earlier covenants. They do not destroy them, they fulfill them, bring them to the fullness intended by God.

[Tishri1]

Charles you just said you do the same things we do...you believe the same things we do (I should say I do, sorry folks) you practise the same things I do,

There is no obvious difference in our beliefs except what we choose to call it...

minor difference IMO mute point IMO

[Charles YTK]

Charles you just said you do the same things we do...you believe the same things we do (I should say I do, sorry folks) you practise the same things I do,

There is no obvious difference in our beliefs except what we choose to call it...

minor difference IMO mute point IMO


Yes Tish,

I think that over the years you and I have been pretty much on the same page. But not everyone is on that page and some are reading out of an entirely different book.:D

You know as sad as it may be from a Messianc prespective (meaning no insult to our Jewish brothers) but over the years I have seen a number of people get to this point of trying to please God through obedience to Torah, much of which no longer applies to them, and they determine that becoming Jewish or attending a synagogue (non-Messianic) would bring them closer to God, and what happenes is that they become so enamoured with the Rituals that they loose faith in Yeshua. I have seen too many loose faith and renounce Yeshua in an effort to come closer to God. And the truth is one can not be any closer to God in this life than by having the spirit of His Messiah living in you. :clap:

I think the idea forms because people who were disillusioned with Christianity and its non-scriptural doctrines (again no offense intended) that they feel that the Jewish faith was the real thing, that which was right there when God was in the Tabernacle and his Shekinah like a cloud in the sancuary. But the truth is, that was Temple Judaism and it does not exist today. What replaced it was Rabbinical Judaism which is not the same. Even 2nd temple Judaism was devoid of Gods presence in the Tabernacle. There was no ark and no shekinah. How much less in Rabbinical Judaism. It has it's merits for sure as a sytem of worship of the one God, not saying it isn't. But it is devoid of he Messiah and does not have the spiritual infilling we have all come to love.

NOW, look at a Jewish believer who comes the other direction and discovers the real Messiah, (not the Jesus of Christianity but the Jewish Messiah of the scriptures) There is spiritual fulfillment and joy and depth that can not be equaled anywhere! A true Messainic worship serive with a bunch of Jewish brothers makes the rest all seem so shallow and lifeless.

[stone]

you know, saying that Abraham did not have kosher guidelines when it comes to eating is adding something to the text that is not there. You should know that every word spoken to Abraham from g-d would not be written in our books. If we analyze the text that is there and look at later what is given by g-d, except that it was written when father said to write it, and before those things were written you can not possibly know whether or not father said to not write those things down or not, but since Noah had distinguished between clean and unclean animals and it is written that when father smelled the sacrifice, he liked the sweet smell... well... chances are you are wrong about what you say aobut nothing kosher in those times, i can almost guarantee you that you are wrong on this.

Plus, there are books that have been written long ago that have faded away from existence, and we will never know most of what was written in them.

[Charles YTK]

you know, saying that Abraham did not have kosher guidelines when it comes to eating is adding something to the text that is not there. You should know that every word spoken to Abraham from g-d would not be written in our books. If we analyze the text that is there and look at later what is given by g-d, except that it was written when father said to write it, and before those things were written you can not possibly know whether or not father said to not write those things down or not, but since Noah had distinguished between clean and unclean animals and it is written that when father smelled the sacrifice, he liked the sweet smell... well... chances are you are wrong about what you say aobut nothing kosher in those times, i can almost guarantee you that you are wrong on this.

Plus, there are books that have been written long ago that have faded away from existence, and we will never know most of what was written in them.
I am not sure if this was addressed to me or someone else, but I will say that there already was Clean and unclean, as we see in Noah. I agree totally. What we don't know is the details of this. But I believe my reference was to what is considered Kosher in a Jewish way, Rabbinically Kosher. The Jews will not eat meat and dairy but Abaham did not have a problem with this. He even served this to the LORD.


Gen 18 [6] And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth. [7] And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetched a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it. [8] And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.

So we do not know exactly what was Kosher in the days of Abraham. If it makes more sense to you to strike this difference, then there are still many other differences to deal with. The Torah of Abraham was not the same as the Torah of Moshe and the Torah of Yeshua is not exactly the same as the Torah of Moshe.
As proof of this, where in the Torah of Moshe does it say that a man from Judah can be high priest?

[Tishri1]

You know as sad as it may be from a Messianc prespective (meaning no insult to our Jewish brothers) but over the years I have seen a number of people get to this point of trying to please God through obedience to Torah, much of which no longer applies to them, and they determine that becoming Jewish or attending a synagogue (non-Messianic) would bring them closer to God, and what happenes is that they become so enamoured with the Rituals that they loose faith in Yeshua. I have seen too many loose faith and renounce Yeshua in an effort to come closer to God. And the truth is one can not be any closer to God in this life than by having the spirit of His Messiah living in you. :clap:

amen Charles this is a huge huge burden with in me too! If that is why this distinction is so important to you then I can see your point....I know of a few dear friends and even with in my non- immediate family I have some who were seeking conversion which would entail renouncing Yeshua:(

I dont know of any here though who are seeking to throw their faith away and I dont see any here who dont follow basically the same Torah you do...We talk about this all the time we just dont call it a different Torah

I share your burden for those who are being drawn away from Yeshua though:cry::prayer:

[stone]

yea that was directed to you, and i agree with what you said, i didn't think of it like that, as no cheese on meat, that i know is not correct.

my quote button is broken. :scratch:

[Tishri1]

my quote button is broken. :scratch:yeh they all are... try the big reply button on the post and see if it works:wave:

[Charles YTK]

amen Charles this is a huge huge burden with in me too! If that is why this distinction is so important to you then I can see your point....I know of a few dear friends and even with in my non- immediate family I have some who were seeking conversion which would entail renouncing Yeshua:(

I dont know of any here though who are seeking to throw their faith away and I dont see any here who dont follow basically the same Torah you do...We talk about this all the time we just dont call it a different Torah

I share your burden for those who are being drawn away from Yeshua though:cry::prayer:
This is the issue really. I have seen several people even one or two from here give up their faith in Yeshua to take on the honor of being a disciple of the Talmudic sages. Yeshua warned us to call no man Rabbi and not to be called Rabbi or father or master. We are to make disciple for him, not ourselves and not for the sages, even if he agreed with them on many points. We sit at the feet of Yeshua. We apply his Halacha to our lives.

[MattyJames]

Matt,

I don't mean to insult, but I think you do not understand Blood covenant in the terms of the Hebrews who became Israel.

What did Abraham have to do to maintain Gods covenant with him? Nothing. It was Gods promise and God would keep it. Abraham had only to believe. Circumcision was the sign that he believed, the sign of those in the covenant. (This is stated clearly by Paul).

Sorry but I fully disagree. The scripture tells why Abraham was righteous before God 'because Abraham obeyed my voice, kept my charge, my commandments, my statues, and my Law.' Gen 26:5

In Sinai Israel must do many things to maintain their status within the Covenant. and the sign of the covenant is Sabbath keeping. See Deut 31 how conditional it is.

DT 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a-whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. [17] Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them;

Yes I agree, the Sabbath is the sign. And as far as I'm conderned, it still is. Read Heb 4. '...lest any of you should seem to come short of it.'

In the New Covenant the sign is the spirit in us which we do not earn. it is Given to us because we believed.

You did nothing to earn your salvation and you can do nothing to maintain it. All you can do is have trusting faith.

Once again. I believe that the giving of the spirit was always the same. God has always offered strenth and comfort and knowledge and grace, to those who love Him and keep his Commands. God is no respecter of persons. (Rom 2:11)

If the Salvation is not earned, and the Spirit is not earned, then what point is there in a Judgement? Why send some to Hell and some to heaven and neither had any choice in their Salvation? The idea that our decisions do not lead to our eventual destiny cancels out the need for a Judgement day. I hope you see my point. Read Rom 6:16 '...obediance unto righteousness.' Matt 5:17-20.

Covenant is a contract, and a contract is a promise. Yes it is between at least two parties. The conditions can vary according to the stipulation. Even the Sages who you profess understood this.

Once again, you have canceled yourself out. 'a contract is a promise', is an oxymoron. A promise has no stipulations. It is one sided. A Covenant does. A promise is a unilateral decision from one party to another, without any obligations of action of the second party. It can also be a reward for ones fulfilling of the Covenant. A covenant is Bilateral, not unilateral. Otherwise it is then a promise and not a covenant. One needs to understand the differance.

Secondly, which sage are you refering to that I profess? If you mean the Prophets and Apostles of Scripture, then yes, I do profess them, and them only. If you are talking extra scriptural writings, then no, I do not profess them. I want to make that very clear,

I have said it above and now again so that you do not miss it:

God made a covenant with Abraham. The Sinai covenant was the mechanism through which the promises to Abraham would be realized. The New Covenant is the Mechanism through with the shadows and types pointing to Messiah and the Davidic Kingdom would be realized and become realities.

The Covenants bring to fulness, Fulfill, the earlier covenants. They do not destroy them, they fulfill them, bring them to the fullness intended by God.

Are you saying that the Promises of Abraham are not relevant to those in the New Covenant? This of course is contrary to Pauls understanding in Galations and Hebrews.

The bottom line is our differance in views on Salvation and obligation to Torah. I believe, in accordance with Scripture, that Obediance is our base requirement to the Covenant remaining in effect, and the receiving of the Promises therein. I believe that this was the same with Abraham (Gen 15:6, 26:5), as with the Sinai Covenant Deut 6:25, and also with the New Covenant (Matt 5:19-20, Heb 5:9).

The confermation of the Covenant of promise made at Sinai did not initially include the Levitical Priesthood. The relevant 'Old Covenant' as talked about in Hebrews, is purely the Levitical Administration (Covenant with Levi) under the Order of Aaron, nothing more, nothing less. There was more than one Covenant made during the time of Moses. The only Covenant that has been annuled was that of the Priesthood, after the order of Aaron, through its abominable corruption (Mal 2:8-9, Heb 8:8...'for finding fault with them'..not God or His Covenant.) And this Covenant was made apart from the Covenant between the Lord and Israel as a nation.

What has changed then? The priesthood! That is all.
The propitiation for sins. The New Covenant still has the General terms and Conditions, Ex 19-24, but with a different administration, that of Messiah being our High Priest after the Order of Melkesideck.

regards,

Matt James

[Tishri1]

This is the issue really. I have seen several people even one or two from here give up their faith in Yeshua to take on the honor of being a disciple of the Talmudic sages. Yeshua warned us to call no man Rabbi and not to be called Rabbi or father or master. We are to make disciple for him, not ourselves and not for the sages, even if he agreed with them on many points. We sit at the feet of Yeshua. We apply his Halacha to our lives. I totally agree with this Charles, I think about that soooo much as RHS is fast approaching and all that this Festival means when it comes to Yeshua. Will this year be the year he keeps this Moed? And if so what happens to those who rejected his sweet gift:cry:

[Charles YTK]

Sorry but I fully disagree. The scripture tells why Abraham was righteous before God 'because Abraham obeyed my voice, kept my charge, my commandments, my statues, and my Law.' Gen 26:5

Matt, He was counted righteou BEFORE the covenant was made. There were no conditions for the covenant. God did not say to Abraham as he did to those in the desert, "If you do this I will also keep my promise to you, but if you do not do what I say I will not keep my promise and will turn away from you." The Sinai Covenant is conditional. It not only needs to be accepted but also there are conditions set to keep it.

Abrahams covenant is not like this. God simply initiates the covenant that He will make nations out of Abraham and will give him the land. Abraham needs only to believe. And if he faulters, the covenant still stands. It still stands today.

Once again. I believe that the giving of the spirit was always the same. God has always offered strenth and comfort and knowledge and grace, to those who love Him and keep his Commands. God is no respecter of persons. (Rom 2:11)

Compare the giving of the spirit in the old testament to the New. In the old it was given as a temporary anointing. When saul sinned against God, God took the spirit away from him. When David sinned David feared that God would do the same to him. The 70 elders were anointed only for a time. And never except in the cases of the prophets was power given to all the general population. Goodness man, can't you see that in the New it is more, greater, and permanent. If it had been given in this way in the old, why were the Apostles so astounded at what was happening to them? Why does Peter make explanation of how God had promised to pour out the spirit on all, in the last days, if it was already given in the old? Why does Yeshua tell them to wait for the spirit in Jerusalem if it was aleady given from ancient times? . I would venture to say that you will not find one legitimate theologian who will agree with what you are saying.

If the Salvation is not earned, and the Spirit is not earned, then what point is there in a Judgement? Why send some to Hell and some to heaven and neither had any choice in their Salvation? The idea that our decisions do not lead to our eventual destiny cancels out the need for a Judgement day. I hope you see my point. Read Rom 6:16 '...obediance unto righteousness.' Matt 5:17-20.

It is aparent that you have never read the New Testament.
RO 5: [18] Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. [19] For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The law is given to Sanctify us and is acheived through obedience directed by the spirit. Salvation is given according to our trusting (Faith) in the ability and desire of Yeshua the Messiah to save us.

2 thes 2: [13] But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

EPH 2: [4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, [5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) [6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: [7] That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. [8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

RO 3: [24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: [25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; [26] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. [27] Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. [28] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

A covenant is Bilateral, not unilateral. Otherwise it is then a promise and not a covenant. One needs to understand the differance.

I am speaking of the TERMS of the covenant. They can be bilateral or unilateral. There can be conditions set on one or both sides. A person can enter a covenant and sware the oath only to accept what the other provides as in the Abrahamic covenant. There was nothing Abraham had to do to earn or maintian the covenant promises. Abraham was saved and secure in the covenant based on his faith.


Are you saying that the Promises of Abraham are not relevant to those in the New Covenant? This of course is contrary to Pauls understanding in Galations and Hebrews.

I did not say that. The covenant of Abraham was brought into the Sinai covenant. This is why circumcion of the blood sons on the 8th day is also in the Sinai, and why the lands of Israel are theirs. The New covenant also contains the Abrahamic covenant. Blood sons of Israel are still to circumcise their sons on the 8th day. And they still have an inheritance in the land according to that covenant. The later covenant does not revoke or cancel the former, because it was unilateral, God made it, Abraham believed it and God keeps it. But the Sinai covenant was bilateral and was broken, and it is not brought into the New Covenant. Think for a moment would God bring into the New Covenant the Sinai Covenant which Israel had already broken and made void, and the Temple and priesthood needed to keep it no longer available? Does God set a trap for his people and run them into a snare? This is why he promised to make a NEW COVENANT that is not like the one that he made when he took them out of Egypt. The New has some of the same features and some of the Torah, but we know and you have admitted that it does not contain the priesthood. And there are other things that it does not contain. The terms have changed because it is a new covenant.

The bottom line is our differance in views on Salvation and obligation to Torah. I believe, in accordance with Scripture, that Obediance is our base requirement to the Covenant remaining in effect, and the receiving of the Promises therein. I believe that this was the same with Abraham (Gen 15:6, 26:5), as with the Sinai Covenant Deut 6:25, and also with the New Covenant (Matt 5:19-20, Heb 5:9).

Yes conditions were set for the Sinai covenant. I have illustrated that with scripture. The New Covenant is not the same. We are expected to receive the spirit in a new and powerful way, and through that changed life, we will keep the points of the law that are included in the New Covenant.

Look at this Ro 2, Paul is saying people who never even heard of Torah are keeping the New Covenant law, by the spirit in them.

[14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: [15] Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness,


RO 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. [3] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [5] For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. [6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. [8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. [9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. [10] And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. [11] But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. [12] Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. [13] For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. [14] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

[Charles YTK]

I totally agree with this Charles, I think about that soooo much as RHS is fast approaching and all that this Festival means when it comes to Yeshua. Will this year be the year he keeps this Moed? And if so what happens to those who rejected his sweet gift:cry:
You may remember that I have been watching this year for a long time because of prophetic "shadows" and time segments that seem to point to it.

In reading this thread do you see how some think that their salvation is based on Torah keeping, a thing that Paul totally refutes. Should I assume that this is the accepted doctrine her at CF now as I see no one standing up for the Gospel of Messiah? This is once again the same thing I was speaking of before. The next step is to immerse oneself in Torah by going to non-messianic synagogue and soon thereafter, faith in Yeshua is gone. It all become self earned status in God through works.

[HadassahSukkot]

?? I haven't seen any of that in this thread Charles.

I believe you are saved by grace thbrough faith, but it is a part of our walk (daily sanctification) to seek and do the things we know please our husband.

Just like being married in this realm, a wife seeks to fix the favorite meal once in a while, do nice things, keep the house clean and the kids in order while he's gone... same idea Spiritually...

The covenant was made, but remember YHVH walked through the fire for Avraham, because we and our fathers broke covenant, Y'shua came to die to restore us as the bride to Him..

He gave us a "fence" (The royal laws) to live within. Sure, we venture out of the fold once in a while, but He brings us back to His ways, His truth, His life.

Remember that many times that other believer shun "THE LAW" - yet they also live by so many points that are the fence that keep us safe from the wolves outside.

Matisyahu 18
12"If a shepherd has one hundred sheep, and one wanders away and is lost, what will he do? Won't he leave the ninety-nine others and go out into the hills to search for the lost one? 13And if he finds it, he will surely rejoice over it more than over the ninety-nine that didn't wander away! 14In the same way, it is not my heavenly Father's will that even one of these little ones should perish.

[Charles YTK]

Ants,

I agree with you. I feel the same way. Our obedience is out of Love. It is initiated by our will, that is we choose each time to surrender our will to the working of the spirit in us, so that we do the things that please Abba. Until the resurrection/Rapture we still have a daily battle between our flesh and the spirit in us. We still live in the flesh. So it is impossible to perfectly keep the Torah as Yeshua has taught us, where even our thoughts and desires are relavant. Without his grace, his mercy and unconditional love, we are all lost.

But if you read all of these posts you will see that some feel that their standing in God, their acceptance is dependent on thier keeping the law, much of which is impossible to keep.

I personally would choose to stand before Judgment with my sins and appeal to Gods grace, rather than try to stand before him with my own righteousness and works of the flesh.

It has been suggested that I am talking OSAS. But that is not the issue. Those who have trusted in Yeshua for salvation are saved already, and only denial of him can cause us to loose it. Our lives and actions determine what honor or dishonor we receive in the Kingdom, not whether or not we are in the Kingdom. According to Yeshua, even the unsaved will live in the Kingdom at least as mortal beings. Our Goal is to sit in the Masters presence in Glorifed bodies, in a place of honor not as mortal men still subject to it's weakness. We look forward to the redemption of our bodies, not the salvation of our eternal souls. That has been secured already through Yeshua by faith.

According to the sages, when we stand in judgment the first thing we will be asked is "Did you conduct all your business transactions in honesty?". Not,, did you always wear your Tzitzi ?

[Tishri1]

In reading this thread do you see how some think that their salvation is based on Torah keeping, a thing that Paul totally refutes. Should I assume that this is the accepted doctrine her at CF now No not at all! No one here says salvation is thru Torah....Everyone here says salvation is thru Yeshua....Where did you see that?

[Charles YTK]

No not at all! No one here says salvation is thru Torah....Everyone here says salvation is thru Yeshua....Where did you see that?
Read carefully. I will ad highlights:

If the Salvation is not earned, and the Spirit is not earned, then what point is there in a Judgement?

DO we earn our salvation or the gift of the spirit through Torah obedience?


...obediance unto righteousness.' Matt 5:17-20.


Actually it says [19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Our being in the kingdom (Salvation) is not in view. Our status of honor "least" or "greatest" is what is being affected by our obedience to Torah.


The bottom line is our differance in views on Salvation and obligation to Torah. I believe, in accordance with Scripture, that Obediance is our base requirement to the Covenant remaining in effect, and the receiving of the Promises therein. I believe that this was the same with Abraham (Gen 15:6, 26:5), as with the Sinai Covenant Deut 6:25, and also with the New Covenant (Matt 5:19-20, Heb 5:9).

It was conditional only in the Sinai covenant. The Abrahamic and the New Covenants are unilateral, the gift of God by his election. We only believe. This is Paul's Gospel in every letter.


The confermation of the Covenant of promise made at Sinai did not initially include the Levitical Priesthood. The relevant 'Old Covenant' as talked about in Hebrews, is purely the Levitical Administration (Covenant with Levi) under the Order of Aaron, nothing more, nothing less. There was more than one Covenant made during the time of Moses. The only Covenant that has been annuled was that of the Priesthood, after the order of Aaron, through its abominable corruption (Mal 2:8-9, Heb 8:8...'for finding fault with them'..not God or His Covenant.) And this Covenant was made apart from the Covenant between the Lord and Israel as a nation.


The Priesthood is and integral part of the Sinai covenant. They were the administrators of the Covenant. There is no Covenant without the Levites and the Temple. There is a great deal more that has changed in the New Covenant. However if you still believe you are in the Sinai covenant and not the New Covenant then you are obligated to make those sacrifices. And also means Yeshua was not the Messiah and did not change anything, and waiting for the gift of the holy spirit was a farce because we all already had the gift of the spirit from the time of Moshe. This is all contrary to the Gospel, to the words of Yeshua and the doctrine of the disciples. I do agree that the book of Hebrews speaks mostly about the priesthood being changed. But it also peaks about the Covenant being replaced, and says when there is a change in the priesthood there must also be a change in the law. It is very clear to explain that the ulfillment of Jeremiah 31 and the New covenant had indeed taken place.


What has changed then? The priesthood! That is all. The propitiation for sins. The New Covenant still has the General terms and Conditions, Ex 19-24, but with a different administration, that of Messiah being our High Priest after the Order of Melkesideck.

So then nothing has changed? The New Covenant is also conditional on our keeping all the Torah as a nation? Much of this 19-24 is for the administration of the nation Israel in that land. And Israel broke that covenant and it was cancelled, the temple destroyed, the priests scattered, and the nation sent into the diaspora. And it is somehow still in effect? This is just putting an aready failed and void covenant and its burdens on people who God has already set free. It is like trying to pay for somethig that you have already received as a free gift from father.

Yes, I see serious problems in all this.

All that we have is the free gift of God through faith in Yeshua. We do not earn it or deserve it. We accept it with thanksgiving, and trust in it by our faith. The only way we can keep the Torah is to keep it as Yeshua taught us, by yielding our will to the direction of the Holy Spirit who is in us.

RO 7: [4] Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. [5] For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. [6] But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

[Tishri1]

Read carefully. I will ad highlights:



DO we earn our salvation or the gift of the spirit through Torah obedience?





Actually it says [19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Our being in the kingdom (Salvation) is not in view. Our status of honor "least" or "greatest" is what is being affected by our obedience to Torah.




It was conditional only in the Sinai covenant. The Abrahamic and the New Covenants are unilateral, the gift of God by his election. We only believe. This is Paul's Gospel in every letter.





[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]The Priesthood is and integral part of the Sinai covenant. They were the administrators of the Covenant. There is no Covenant without the Levites and the Temple. There is a great deal more that has changed in the New Covenant. However if you still believe you are in the Sinai covenant and not the New Covenant then you are obligated to make those sacrifices. And also means Yeshua was not the Messiah and did not change anything, and waiting for the gift of the holy spirit was a farce because we all already had the gift of the spirit from the time of Moshe. This is all contrary to the Gospel, to the words of Yeshua and the doctrine of the disciples. I do agree that the book of Hebrews speaks mostly about the priesthood being changed. But it also peaks about the Covenant being replaced, and says when there is a change in the priesthood there must also be a change in the law. It is very clear to explain that the ulfillment of Jeremiah 31 and the New covenant had indeed taken place.




So then nothing has changed? The New Covenant is also conditional on our keeping all the Torah as a nation? Much of this 19-24 is for the administration of the nation Israel in that land. And Israel broke that covenant and it was cancelled, the temple destroyed, the priests scattered, and the nation sent into the diaspora. And it is somehow still in effect? This is just putting an aready failed and void covenant and its burdens on people who God has already set free. It is like trying to pay for somethig that you have already received as a free gift from father.

Yes, I see serious problems in all this.

All that we have is the free gift of God through faith in Yeshua. We do not earn it or deserve it. We accept it with thanksgiving, and trust in it by our faith. The only way we can keep the Torah is to keep it as Yeshua taught us, by yielding our will to the direction of the Holy Spirit who is in us.

RO 7: [4] Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. [5] For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. [6] But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
It's very hard for me to tell if these are even within the context of their original posts so I will do us all a favor and just start a poll and we can see plainly then what everyone believes ok...I 'll post the link here

[Tishri1]

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=3674671

here it is:wave:

[MattyJames]

First of all I want to apologise to Zayit for derailing the thread, and appeal to her for a little grace that we can continue either here or in another thread.

Charles. We are irreconcileable for now. I also want to make clear that I do not read the Sages, or any other extra biblical writings in order to form my doctrine. I say this, as to make it known that I do not derive my doctrine from any other source other than the Cannonised Holy Bible! and I reject any other notion that I do otherwise!

I am spending much time on this subject, and I realize that you are not here to change, and I do not see enough logic or merit in your arguements to make me sway from my understanding.

I see many years of Christain theology still sticking to your doctrine and understanding. Gods deal hasn't and will not change. Otherwise God is a respecter of persons (Rom 2:11). You see Salvation as a gift, I see that 'every man will be judged by his works' Ecc 14:12. You believe that Abraham was Justified only by faith. Yet James clearly states that Abraham was justified by works (Jam 2:21). Furthermore, what does the Master say to such a question? 'if thou wilt enter into eternal life; keep the commandments.' (Matt 19:16-19). Now which commandments was Yeshua speaking of? Torah (Ex 20)!! For there was no other commandment. Here was His oppertunity to agree with you and say 'Just have faith in Me, and you'll be saved, given the gift of eternal life.' But he didn't!!. So, is The Master the author of confusion? God forbid! And as Paul also agrees 'Not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law shall be justified.' Rom 2:13.

You say that:

'It was conditional only in the Sinai covenant. The Abrahamic and the New Covenants are unilateral, the gift of God by his election.'

This is contrary to scripture and devoid of logic. That paints God as a God of 'time and chance'. I supose Abraham was just lucky? and Saul wasn't? God is not a respector of persons.
No, Abraham was Justified by Faith (trusting), evidenced by his works and obediance. (Gen 15:6, 26:5, James 2:21) And so was Rahab, even though she was under the Sinaitic Covenant!!

Furthermore, if the Levitical Preisthood was needed for right standing before God, then please tell me how Daniel was found righteous before God? And what about his three friends? And what about Ezra, Nehemiah, Hadasha and many more of those who found Gods grace (merited favour, for God is not a respector of persons) and acceptance, apart from the administration of the Levitical Priesthood? If:

'there is no covenant without the Levites and the Temple'

then please advise as to what 'covenant' were these people under? Afterall, you are either in or out, there is no grey area here. Where does God say that His Covenant's continuation relied on the existance and administration of the Levites and the Temple?

It is pure arrogance of us to think that somehow we have received a 'better deal', with different weights and balances? And different standards? God forbid. Do we continue on in Sin (transgressing Torah) that grace may abound? God forbid (Rom 6:1). And Paul did not refer to any other 'Torah' than that which the Prophets also spoke of. (Acts 24:14, Rom 7:7)

As I stated earlier, we are irreconcilable at this time. I will close by stateing Pauls very own words in 1 Cor 10:1.

'Moreover, brethern, I woulnd not that ye be ignorant, who that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;2 and were all baptised unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 and did all drink the same spiritual drink; for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Messiah.'
...The same yesterday, today, and forever. (Heb 13:8)
I cannot say it any more plainly.

And finally I share and empathise with your frustration of those 'Christains/ Messianics' who have been pursuaded to reject Messiah and convert to Judaisim. However, may I suggest it more probable by the presentation of another deal (gospel) that gives them all the fuel they need to pursuade the simple in faith.

regards.

Matt James

[Charles YTK]

Matt,

I want to repeat that I am not opposed at all to our keeping the Torah. We must do so as best we can. I think what I am trying to say is that faith comes first, and bings salvation, and then works (obedience) follows as the fruit of that salvation and relationship. If we turn that around and say tht we must do works to earn our salvation we have cancelled the Gospel and fallen into legalism. That is a fatal error. God loved us when we were yet sinners and died for us to deliver us from that sinful nature.

James gives an explanation of all those great ones who had faith and also had works. But he makes it clear that the works were the natural outgrowth of the faith and salvation they already had not the method by which they obtained it. Works are a proof of salvation already received. A person can do good works and not believe in God. I know many very good moral and compassionate athiests and New Agers whos works are perfect. But they are not saved.

James says, "I will show you my faith by my works." Works are the demonstration of faith we already have if we are truly saved. He uses Abraham as an example and says that his faith worked together with his obedience, "And by works was faith made perfect." (JA 2:22)

The point James is making is that if we are saved through faith, then the life we lead should reflect that in works of righteousness, Good Mitzvot. We can't say we love God and then hate our neighbor who God also loves. We can't say Praise God and be filled with Joy and let our neighbor starve in misery. The lack of compassion and good deeds shows that our faith is not real, because there has been no change in our heart.

SO I am not saying that we simply have faith and then ignore the commandments and live like devils. That is Liscense, not faith, and it is practiced by many, who go to church and afterward have potlucks with pork ribs and shrimp. It is inconsistant and shows that God is not dwelling there in the heart. We must give attention to Torah in order to see if our hearts have been brought under the lordship of Yeshua. The Torah is instructions in righteousness and holiness. It is not a means of salvation. Torah reveals where our will and that of God do not agree so that we can repent and ask for grace to change.

You see this is exactly what Paul was saying in RO 8. [6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. [8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Lets tun that around in its wording so that it is clearer.

The carnal man does not please God he is enmity against God. The spiritual man does please God because his mind IS subject to the law of God.

Our inner being is being directed by the Spirit of God in us to bring about righteousness and good works as required in Gods law.

[visionary]

The carnal man does not please God he is enmity against God. The spiritual man does please God because his mind IS subject to the law of God.

Our inner being is being directed by the Spirit of God in us to bring about righteousness and good works as required in Gods law.Amen

[Sephania]

These posts have been split from my Thread 'Attack of the Torah' found here (http://www.christianforums.com/t3690894), because it was getting seriously off -topic. If you wish to post regarding this trend you can post on that thread, for those who wish to debate the various views of what Torah is, and what is Rabbinic, or Whose Torah should be followed can continue so in this thread.

Thank you for your patience while I split this thread, it took some doing with the new software. :)

Zayit
Sr Mod
MJ Forums

[MattyJames]

sorry to make your life diffucult :blush:

thanks Zayit.

Matt James

[visionary]

It means NEW as in never before seen. Now as I said above, the Sinai covenant was Bilateral, it has things that Israel must do in order to maintain their covenant standing. The NEW covenant is Unilateral. We do nothing to earn it or to preserve it. It is God's work all the way. He says when He makes the covenant that:

He will write the laws of that covenant on our hearts
He will cause everyone in the covenant to know Him
He will put His Spirit in us
He will forgive our sins
He will put a new heart in us
He will cause us to obey Him.
He will make Israel and Judah into one people called IsraelAmen...

[Tishri1]

I see Man in which I find myself disagreeing with on points of Doctrine, but whos intent of heart I feel humbled by. Charles, I've come to the conclusion that it is only Humlity that will unite us, both in this world, and in the world to come. If you should Humble your heart, seek God and His perfect ways, then you will take hold of eternal Life. And myself likewise, if I should humble my heart, learn and live Gods holy ways, I will also find eternal life. So in this way, we are united in spirit, and eventually, united for eternity.

Why isn't the body then more united? Brings to mind a couple of Scriptures:

'Ye are a stiffnecked people, uncircumsised in hearts and mind.' Deut 10:16

'This is a wicked and adulterous generation...'Matt 16:4

May we all pray for Gods mercy.:prayer:

regards Charles,

Matt Jamesamen Matty James:amen:

[Tishri1]

.... The next step is to immerse oneself in Torah by going to non-messianic synagogue and soon thereafter, faith in Yeshua is gone. It all become self earned status in God through works.I can see your fear realised Charles, though a small minority, there have been some who have thrown Yeshua's gift away... I was there once myself ...faced with the so called "facts" that tried real hard to rip my heart away from my Master. I faced it, but MY faith in Yeshua was not weak like that, I am his child thru and thru and that test of my faith proved it and has just made me even stronger ...In some ways I see that time as a blessing of God ...to be able to face the World of Judiasm Without Yeshua and say NO THANK YOU!...

[Charles YTK]

Tish,

We all miss God's will when we place man made religion ahead of Messiah's teaching. All religion, whether Christian or Jewish is still religion based on man made doctrine, at the expense of God's rich word to us. Yeshua IS the faithul witness the one way to the father. I love my Jewish brothers and will stand with them no mater what the cost. But my heart aches for them because relgion has veiled their eyes from the glories of God in Messiah.

[Tishri1]

?? I haven't seen any of that in this thread Charles.

I believe you are saved by grace thbrough faith, but it is a part of our walk (daily sanctification) to seek and do the things we know please our husband.


Amen Ants and I think we would all agree that our husband is Yeshua and we seek to walk in Torah in a way that would please Him, not in the obvious ways He revield in the scriptures that were not pleasing to Him...(I dont think any of us here do that though, we all seem to be able to see the difference)

[Tishri1]

Tish,

We all miss God's will when we place man made religion ahead of Messiah's teaching. All religion, whether Christian or Jewish is still religion based on man made doctrine, at the expense of God's rich word to us. Yeshua IS the faithul witness the one way to the father. I love my Jewish brothers and will stand with them no mater what the cost. But my heart aches for them because relgion has veiled their eyes from the glories of God in Messiah.me too:cry:, That could have been me but I didn't succomb even with great pressure on me , so that gives me Hope, alot of Hope!

"ABBA is this the year you will keep your Holy appointment with us? Have mercy and Wake Up Israel before your return...:prayer:"

I know ABBA loves them desparately, why would Yeshua pay such a price if He didnt...oh yes He sure does!!!!:groupray:

[Charles YTK]

Here is really where it is summed up:

1 John 2: [3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. [6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. [7] Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

It is the OLD commandment they heard from the beginning. The Torah. We should walk as He walked. How was that? In obedience to the greater principles and moral directives of God's law.

He pointed us to God, just as Moshe pointed us to God.

God told Moshe that there was one that he would raise up from among his brethern who was like him and that we must obey him. Deut 18:18

Moshe an Yeshua both have a tripple anointing

They are King= lawgiver

They are Prophet= they speak for God

They are priests= interceeding for the people.

The high priest had access to the most holy place one day out of the year. Moshe could enter the Most Holy place any time he wanted. So also Yeshua.

Both of these me directed us to God, the one God. And they both walked in obedience to God.


Something that I notice as a difference between Judaism and Christiaity is that the Jewish peple revere Moshe but do not worship him. They worship the God Moshe serve and pointed us to.

In Christianity they worship Jesus (who is like moshe) even though he pointed us to the Father also. God the father is only an after thought to most. I am not saying it is wrong to worship Yeshua. But we should not loose site of the fact that Yeshua worshiped God and was obedient to his word and told us to go to the Father as well for everything.

[MattyJames]

Here is really where it is summed up:

1 John 2: [3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. [6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. [7] Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

It is the OLD commandment they heard from the beginning. The Torah. We should walk as He walked. How was that? In obedience to the greater principles and moral directives of God's law.

He pointed us to God, just as Moshe pointed us to God.

God told Moshe that there was one that he would raise up from among his brethern who was like him and that we must obey him. Deut 18:18

Moshe an Yeshua both have a tripple anointing

They are King= lawgiver

They are Prophet= they speak for God

They are priests= interceeding for the people.

The high priest had access to the most holy place one day out of the year. Moshe could enter the Most Holy place any time he wanted. So also Yeshua.

Both of these me directed us to God, the one God. And they both walked in obedience to God.


Something that I notice as a difference between Judaism and Christiaity is that the Jewish peple revere Moshe but do not worship him. They worship the God Moshe serve and pointed us to.

In Christianity they worship Jesus (who is like moshe) even though he pointed us to the Father also. God the father is only an after thought to most. I am not saying it is wrong to worship Yeshua. But we should not loose site of the fact that Yeshua worshiped God and was obedient to his word and told us to go to the Father as well for everything.

Charles, what I am not understanding.

How can, with the above post in mind, state that our obediance has nothing to do with Salvation? And how can you state that the New Covenant is 'Unilateral', when above you clearly underline obediance as neccasary for Holiness and right standing with Yeshua and God the Father?

BTW, the unilateral argument is not on debate. I've staked my claim already that a 'Unilateral' Covenant is a selfcancelling agrument - it doesn't make sence - both biblically and logically.

not sure how to take you,

Matt James

[Charles YTK]

Matt,
I think that the thing you are missing in what I have said, is the difference between Salvation and Sanctification. Do you understand the difference? I am not being rude, it is just that many do not get the difference. Salvation is a gift. If we kept the law perfectly, but did so in our own efforts, without having faith, I am not convinced we would be saved. If we sinned a lot but approached God in repentence, he would grant us grace and salvation. Our eternal life is all founded on His mercy through Yeshua.

Once we are saved and the spirit in given to us, we begin to realize the law is written there on our hears and we desire to live in a way that pleases God. So we begin yielding our will, little by little to God and he changes us from within so that the very things required in the law become a part of our character. He doesn't have to constantly remind us not to kill, because he has place love and mercy inside of us and that cancels the desire to kill someone. This is sanctification. The Moedim and sabbaths take time and break it into common days and Holy days. Kosher food turns the common act of eating into a holy act by giving us holy guidelines as to what it food and what is not. Through Marriage the common human act of sex if sanctified and made a holy act.

We had a long list of charges against us, for sins. Sin is breaking the law. In Rome a prisoner was put in a cell or on the cross a notice was placed on their cage or cross listing their offenses. When Yeshua died, our list of offenses were nailed to his cross and he paid the price for us. We did not pay for them, he did. That is how we are saved. Not by keeping the law. Keeping the law is sanctification, turning us from animals to holy humans.

Col 2: [13] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; [14] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


The handwriten bill of ofenses for our sin he took for us and nailed them to the cross over his head and he paid the price. Knowing that, and the great reward that I receive for it, I am grateful and want to live now for him.

[MattyJames]

Charles,

I think I understand where you are comming from, but once again, I find it flawed. BTW, please do not feel afraid to talk straight with me, as I also do with you. After all, we are talking about eternal life.

How can one have Salvation and not be Sanctified? Shall dogs enter into the kingdom? The question is rehtorical. And visa versa - how can one be Sanctified, buy not have Salvation? The two are insperable.

Let me explain as to how I've come to understand the situation. As I see it, the difference is not between Salvation and Sanctification, but rather Saved and Salvation.

Charles, every one that is to enter into the kingdom will have been Saved by Grace, through Faith. From Adam to the very last convert, all will be Saved by Grace. Why so? 'All have fallen short of the Glory of God.' 'All are concluded guilty before God.'

So, us, being worthy of death have been justified by the Blood, are now Saved. Saved from what? Death. A pathway leading to hell. This is Faith, Trusting. Just as the children of Israel had to have Faith that the Atonement Sacrifice will restore them to right standing with God, so we too, must have Faith that the Blood of Yeshua will restore us into right standing with God.

But does this mean that we're at the final destination? Of course not! This point is just the begining. Now we 'work out our own salvation with fear and trembling'. And furthermore, as John the baptists says, 'bring forth therefore works meet for repentance' Matt 3:8

Salvation therefore, requires works, otherwise Faith is made void. There is no work that can save you! However, if you wish to take hold on eternal life, 'keep the commandments.' . To be saved merely requires one to believe on the Name of Yeshua Messiah, and trust that He is the God of the universe and that He will/ can save, heal and restore you. Salvation, requires works, thereby perfecting that Faith that orginally saved you. Otherwise, if no works follow, that Faith is dead. It was vanity.

So likewise the Covenant, requires no work to enter into it, other than a willingness, Faith. However, if one wishes to remain in the Covenant, the Conditions must be met, and therefore the promises will also be fulfilled.

In conclusion, being Saved is outside out ability. It is a gift of God, the sacrifice of His Son. Salvation however, requires us to give everything. Our obediance, devotion, even our very lives.

Can one be saved and not pertain to Salvation? IMO, no. Can one obtain salvation and not be saved? IMO, no.

I hope I've made myself clear.

regards,

Matt James