What is Gods will? [Archive] - Christian Forums

SUNSTONE

18th February 2003, 03:41 PM

This is a big question, but what do you believe is Gods will.

Reformationist

18th February 2003, 07:17 PM

Today at 11:41 AM SUNSTONE said this in Post #1 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=660939#post660939)

This is a big question, but what do you believe is Gods will.

Well, if you're a Christian it would be your sanctification:

1 Thessalonians 4:3
For this is the will of God, your sanctification:

If you're not a Christian, or never are regenerated, I'd have to say God's Will for your life is to be used to sanctify His chosen.

God bless

SUNSTONE

18th February 2003, 09:00 PM

Thats definitly part of His will.

Reformationist

18th February 2003, 09:07 PM

Today at 05:00 PM SUNSTONE said this in Post #3 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=661509#post661509)

Thats definitly part of His will.

What else is there that you feel does not fall under the umbrella of working toward our sanctification?

God bless,

Don

 

Andrew

19th February 2003, 12:29 AM

The overiding will of God for man is to believe in His Son and keep on trusting in Him:

John 6:29
29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

John 6:39
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

John 6:40
40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

1 John 3:23
And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to
love one another as he commanded us.

And for everything else, the will of God is given in the Bible. eg whether God wants to heal, whether God wants to prosper, whether God wants this or that.... it's mostly revealed already in the Word. So no need for "if"s, "maybe"s, "sometimes" etc.

luigi028

19th February 2003, 11:04 AM

I believe the will of God is:

(Matthew 22:34) "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself. 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Sanctification is a byproduct of the love of God and when you truly love God the byproduct is that you truly start to love your neighbor.

I believe this is the will of God, and sanctification, faith, obedience and every other fruit of the spirit will come as a result of that love.

God bless,
028

dignitized

19th February 2003, 12:44 PM

welp it depends on many things . . . do mean his PERFET will or his permissive will? Are you speaking of His Specific will or his general will?

Even once you answer those questions we can only know specific segments of Gods will, those which he has chosen to reveal to us personally and generally.

Gods will is more than a human mind can grasp in its totality. To know it, you must be like God.

SnuP

21st February 2003, 02:55 AM

I believe His ultimate will is for redemption for the purpose of communion/fellowship. the two greatest comandments fit nicely with this.

A good example of this is the story of the prodical son. The father didn't really care about making cleaning his son, he just wanted his son, and his son became cleansed as a part of rejoining his fathers household. Notice that the robe and the ring and the imbrace came before a bath was ever administered. God wants His children back and He will imbrace them in what ever condition they return. And He will not hold back His blessings or make them conditional upon mans cleansing.

Outspoken

21st February 2003, 07:51 PM

I'd say its summed up in Pslams...
"Psa 46:10 Be still, and know that I [am] God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth. "

His will is that he be glorified.

sklippstein

21st February 2003, 11:04 PM

i agree with the majority......God's Will is for all to be saved and none lost.

SnuP

22nd February 2003, 02:06 AM

Yesterday at 09:04 PM sklippstein said this in Post #10 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=668448#post668448)

i agree with the majority......God's Will is for all to be saved and none lost.

  If that is all that God wants then why did He even make us?

I think that you all are missing the point.

sklippstein

22nd February 2003, 11:27 AM

Snup......in ur opinion, what is the point?

SnuP

22nd February 2003, 02:34 PM

to have a Father and son relationship with the one who brought us into existance.

God created us for such a relationship. Our spirit was created for the soul purpose of pouring Himself into. Our hearts were created for the soul purpose of loving and recieving love. Sin seperated us from God. God came not to save us from just from hell. He came to save us from the seperation that occured and restore the relationship of a Father to His sons. It has been said that Hell is Hell only because God is not there.

sklippstein

22nd February 2003, 02:37 PM

Snup isn't that basically what we have all said in here? U only reworded the same theory as I and others have stated.

SnuP

22nd February 2003, 02:53 PM

not quite, only two other person on this tread has talked about relationships. Everyone else has talked about santification or some part of salvation. I am the only one who has mentioned seperation and the father son relationship.

SUNSTONE

22nd February 2003, 04:01 PM

18th February 2003 at 08:07 PM Reformationist said this in Post #4 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=661530#post661530)

What else is there that you feel does not fall under the umbrella of working toward our sanctification?

God bless,

Don

 

Sanctification is being seperated for religous use. In other words, to be seperated for the will of God.

So I was just agreeing on the being seperated part.

chelcb

22nd February 2003, 04:05 PM

Today at 02:01 PM SUNSTONE said this in Post #16 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=669537#post669537)

Sanctification is being seperated for religous use. In other words, to be seperated for the will of God.

So I was just agreeing on the being seperated part.

 

Do you think that we are all called to be "sanctified"? To be used "religiously"?

SUNSTONE

22nd February 2003, 04:06 PM

This is a very deep question, one that can't be answered in just one sentence or one verse from the bible.

I believe that God's will is black and white in some areas, and grey in many other areas. (grey meaning that it could go either black or white depending on the situation).

I would like to hear more on the application of Gods will, not just the generalization.Be more specific. If it is something that only fits you, and not everyone, say so. If it is a black and white, meaning it fits everyone say that too.

SUNSTONE

22nd February 2003, 04:07 PM

Today at 03:05 PM chelcb said this in Post #17 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=669549#post669549)

 

Do you think that we are all called to be "sanctified"? To be used "religiously"?

Yes

chelcb

22nd February 2003, 04:10 PM

Today at 02:07 PM SUNSTONE said this in Post #19 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=669556#post669556)

Yes

What do you mean by that? Can you elaborate?

SUNSTONE

22nd February 2003, 04:23 PM

Seperation.
To look for what pleases God and fit it into your life. Get out of the mind set of getting everything you want, out of the mind set to live for things that only please the flesh(namely sin). To continuely grow in strength over sin. To grow in strength with prayer.
To become more selfless, and looking out for others and there wants and needs.
Seperation is loseing yourself, so that God can fill in more of God things, like wisdom, love, a forgiving attitude, a giving attitude, a gentle person at the same time someone who stands up for what is right even if it means that people will be hurt or even become angry.

Religous use is just another phrase for saying, the will of God.
I will put my input on that as we go along, I just want to hear more from others.

chelcb

22nd February 2003, 04:58 PM

Today at 02:23 PM SUNSTONE said this in Post #21 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=669595#post669595)

Seperation.
To look for what pleases God and fit it into your life. Get out of the mind set of getting everything you want, out of the mind set to live for things that only please the flesh(namely sin). To continuely grow in strength over sin. To grow in strength with prayer.
To become more selfless, and looking out for others and there wants and needs.
Seperation is loseing yourself, so that God can fill in more of God things, like wisdom, love, a forgiving attitude, a giving attitude, a gentle person at the same time someone who stands up for what is right even if it means that people will be hurt or even become angry.

Religous use is just another phrase for saying, the will of God.
I will put my input on that as we go along, I just want to hear more from others.

 

Thanks, one more question, how does one go about being set apart?

SnuP

23rd February 2003, 02:18 AM

By not being seperated from God. By loving God more than you love the world. By having a real relationship with God. By having open discussions with God. By hearing God speak to you and doing His will. By obedience.

SUNSTONE

23rd February 2003, 02:53 PM

Yesterday at 03:58 PM chelcb said this in Post #22 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=669659#post669659)

 

Thanks, one more question, how does one go about being set apart?

Start with a prayer to God.
"Lord I want You to use me like a tool, show me areas in my life where you want me to change."

Once you except Jesus into your life, you become a tool ready to be used by God. I see it often, people except Jesus, and the first thing they want to do is tell someone(very often everyone). Now a new born Christian, isn't a very effective tool, but still a tool.
As you learn to yeild to the Lord, learn from the Lord, pray to the Lord, you become that much more effective.

SnuP

23rd February 2003, 05:30 PM

accually it should be show me areas that You want to work on so that I can yield to Your work.

We can do nothing of ourselfs.

SpiritPsalmist

23rd February 2003, 05:40 PM

The Word that came forth in our service this morning was God telling us to seperate ourselves from the things that weigh us down. He said that He was out to change us. He wants to conform us into His image, however, we keep putting ourselves in situations and circumstances where we are not doing what He tells us. We sit back and wait for Him to change us but we've got to get up and throw off the things that slow us down and keep us from accomplishing what He desires to do through us.

He is Holy and as we keep our eyes on Him we will be changed.

SnuP

23rd February 2003, 05:43 PM

ok I see where she might be comming from. There are somethings that we have power to change and some things that we don't. Let us be wise enough to know the differance.

SUNSTONE

24th February 2003, 03:47 PM

That was just a start SNUP. After God shows you the areas, then you have more to pray for, and to keep praying. Its a fight, and one that God has given us all things to fight the good fight.

SnuP

24th February 2003, 03:53 PM

I've seen God change a person be completely change by God just speaking a word of truth into a persons darkness.

Terri

24th February 2003, 04:45 PM

Since God is Love, I believe that it is His will that we have love for Him and for others.

I have even prayed that God would give me love for Him and others and he has answered that prayer--I believe that all love is a gift from God. :)

Blindfaith

24th February 2003, 07:52 PM

That we love Him with all of our hearts, all of our minds, and all of our soul.

If we do that, everything else falls into place, because then we're totally in-tune with the Spirit and will accomplish God's will.

Reformationist

25th February 2003, 02:19 PM

21st February 2003 at 07:04 PM sklippstein said this in Post #10 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=668448#post668448)

i agree with the majority......God's Will is for all to be saved and none lost.

I think this is clearly not God's Will.  God is causal in all things.  God is sovereign and whatsoever He Wills does come to pass.  To say that it is God's Will that all be saved and none lost is to say that God either can not or does not choose to accomplish His greatest desire.  God does not arbitrarily deign to bring about His Will.  His Will is efficacious and He will bring to salvation all those that He has ordained to save.  I will acknowledge that God does not delight in the condemnation of those that He has not foreordained to bring to a saving knowledge of Himself.  But, God's Will in all things is done, regardless of our cooperation.  In fact, our cooperation is a result of God's grace, not a means to it.

God bless

sklippstein

25th February 2003, 02:41 PM

Today at 01:19 PM Reformationist said this in Post #32 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=675082#post675082)

I think this is clearly not God's Will.  God is causal in all things.  God is sovereign and whatsoever He Wills does come to pass.  To say that it is God's Will that all be saved and none lost is to say that God either can not or does not choose to accomplish His greatest desire.  God does not arbitrarily deign to bring about His Will.  His Will is efficacious and He will bring to salvation all those that He has ordained to save.  I will acknowledge that God does not delight in the condemnation of those that He has not foreordained to bring to a saving knowledge of Himself.  But, God's Will in all things is done, regardless of our cooperation.  In fact, our cooperation is a result of God's grace, not a means to it.

God bless

 

Reform, so Jesus did not die for ALL?

SUNSTONE

25th February 2003, 03:06 PM

chelcb

25th February 2003, 03:24 PM

That's not what Ref is saying.

Reformationist

25th February 2003, 03:49 PM

Today at 10:41 AM sklippstein said this in Post #33 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=675125#post675125) 

Reform, so Jesus did not die for ALL?

Of course He did not die for everyone.  Let me qualify that though.  I am not limiting the value of His sacrifice.  I am limiting His intention.  See, I don't view the death of Christ as something that provided the "possibility" of salvation.  I believe that the reason I'm saved is because Jesus took upon Himself the penalty and guilt for all of my sins and paid that penalty.  By actually paying the price for my sins I am no longer responsible to bear that burden.  God knew when He created me that I could never earn salvation.  He, because of His love, gave me credit for the life and sacrifice for His perfect Son.  He imputed to me the credit for earning salvation.  It is a common misnomer, IMO, that we are not saved by works.  I believe we are saved by works, just not ours.  I can truly say that Jesus is my Savior because He saved me.  If I attribute my salvation to abiding in obedience then I, in essence, attribute my salvation, not to His works, but my own.  My works, while important in glorifying God, are not the basis for my salvation, they are the result.  I believe God is effectual in the accomplishment of His Will.  Therefore, if not changed, man's disposition will be to live a life of fallenness with no desire to glorify God.

If we acknowledge that Jesus is our Savior then we are put in a position, if we wish to be consistant, where we must acknowledge that if the reason we are saved and desire to serve the Lord is by His grace alone then the reason someone else may not be saved is also by His grace.  Fallen man, if not given a new desire, freely chooses to serve his fallenness.  God is under no obligation to save anyone.  The fact that He does save some shows His mercy.  The fact that He doesn't save all does not make Him unfair.  It makes Him just.

So, in answer to your question, no, Jesus did not die for the purpose of universal redemption.  Jesus died so that all that the Father gives Him, which is not everyone, will be saved.

God bless

Reformationist

25th February 2003, 03:56 PM

Today at 11:06 AM SUNSTONE said this in Post #34 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=675179#post675179)

(The Lord does not delay and is not tardy or slow about what He promises, according to some people's concepton of slowness, but He is long-suffering toward you, not desiring that any should perish, but that all should turn to repentance.) 2 Peter 3:9

So you are saying the opposite, that God's will isn't for everyone to goto heaven. That in fact you think it is God's will that they goto hell.

No.  That's not what I'm saying.  I'm saying that all that the Father brings to Christ will be saved and all that the Father does not bring to Christ will not be saved.  Neither salvation, nor damnation is universal.

God bless

Reformationist

25th February 2003, 03:56 PM

Today at 11:24 AM chelcb said this in Post #35 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=675216#post675216)

That's not what Ref is saying.

Thank you m'dear. :)

SUNSTONE

25th February 2003, 03:59 PM

Today at 02:49 PM Reformationist said this in Post #36 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=675255#post675255)

Of course He did not die for everyone.  Let me qualify that though.  I am not limiting the value of His sacrifice.  I am limiting His intention.  See, I don't view the death of Christ as something that provided the "possibility" of salvation.  I believe that the reason I'm saved is because Jesus took upon Himself the penalty and guilt for all of my sins and paid that penalty.  By actually paying the price for my sins I am no longer responsible to bear that burden.  God knew when He created me that I could never earn salvation.  He, because of His love, gave me credit for the life and sacrifice for His perfect Son.  He imputed to me the credit for earning salvation.  It is a common misnomer, IMO, that we are not saved by works.  I believe we are saved by works, just not ours.  I can truly say that Jesus is my Savior because He saved me.  If I attribute my salvation to abiding in obedience then I, in essence, attribute my salvation, not to His works, but my own.  My works, while important in glorifying God, are not the basis for my salvation, they are the result.  I believe God is effectual in the accomplishment of His Will.  Therefore, if not changed, man's disposition will be to live a life of fallenness with no desire to glorify God.

If we acknowledge that Jesus is our Savior then we are put in a position, if we wish to be consistant, where we must acknowledge that if the reason we are saved and desire to serve the Lord is by His grace alone then the reason someone else may not be saved is also by His grace.  Fallen man, if not given a new desire, freely chooses to serve his fallenness.  God is under no obligation to save anyone.  The fact that He does save some shows His mercy.  The fact that He doesn't save all does not make Him unfair.  It makes Him just.

So, in answer to your question, no, Jesus did not die for the purpose of universal redemption.  Jesus died so that all that the Father gives Him, which is not everyone, will be saved.

God bless

(For it is by free grace that you  are saved through faith. And this is not of yourselves but it is the gift of God) Eph 2:8

opps I slipped this in under the qoute.

SUNSTONE

25th February 2003, 04:00 PM

Today at 02:56 PM Reformationist said this in Post #37 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=675263#post675263)

No.  That's not what I'm saying.  I'm saying that all that the Father brings to Christ will be saved and all that the Father does not bring to Christ will not be saved.  Neither salvation, nor damnation is universal.

God bless

What are you saved from?

JesusLoveA

25th February 2003, 04:06 PM

wait, this might not be what your saying, so...........but I have to say this.
Jesus died for the whole world, those alive then now and in the future. He shed His blood so that we would have a chance to come to God. The only way to God is through Jesus Christ. So wouldn't it be God's will to see the whole world saved? God loves us all. He understands that we all make mistakes, but yet He still never leaves us.
I belive that God's will is to see the unsaved get saved, and the saved get closer to Him.

JesusLoveA

25th February 2003, 04:08 PM

Am I wrong or right?

Reformationist

25th February 2003, 04:08 PM

Today at 12:00 PM SUNSTONE said this in Post #40 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=675270#post675270)

What are you saved from?

Not sure if I understand what you're asking.  Do you mean, why are we saved?  If so, all I can say is because it pleased God to do so.  It certainly isn't based on our works.  If any of us were judged on our works we'd all be found lacking.

Thank God for His grace!!

God bless

JesusLoveA

25th February 2003, 04:10 PM

that's true

Reformationist

25th February 2003, 04:12 PM

Today at 12:06 PM JesusLoveA said this in Post #41 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=675281#post675281) 

Jesus died for the whole world, those alive then now and in the future. He shed His blood so that we would have a chance to come to God.

Just out of curiosity, where did you read that Jesus shed His blood so that we would have a "chance" to be saved?

God loves us all.

God loves every single person that ever lived?

He understands that we all make mistakes, but yet He still never leaves us.

If you're talking about the saved, or those that will be saved, I'd say I agree.  If you're talking about everyone I'd have to say that the fact that some go to hell shows undeniably that at some point God is not with some.

I belive that God's will is to see the unsaved get saved, and the saved get closer to Him.

So God fails to accomplish His sovereign Will in many cases? :scratch:

God bless

JesusLoveA

25th February 2003, 04:22 PM

LOL No, he does not fail, He does not force us to get saved, but gives us a choice. And He wants us to get saved. But wont make us.

Yes God does love every single person that ever lived. He loves them from their first breath, and before, but yes He does stop loving some of us before it's all over with.

And I will find that scripture.

JesusLoveA

25th February 2003, 04:24 PM

and...............HAPPY BIRTHDAY to you! lol I hope it's merry!

Reformationist

25th February 2003, 04:38 PM

Today at 12:22 PM JesusLoveA said this in Post #46 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=675306#post675306)

He does not force us to get saved, but gives us a choice.

I don't believe God forces us "to get saved" either.  Salvation is something done to us.  Do you believe you do something "to get saved?"  Where is that choice?  And what benefit would it be to offer godliness to a fallen, depraved creation that does not love God, does not seek Him, does not understand Him, and has no righteousness?  Fallen man does not desire the things of God.  If God gave fallen man a choice to be saved, all people would decline. 

And He wants us to get saved. But wont make us.[/b]

JLA, we don't "get" saved, we are saved.  If you "get" saved then you do something to bring it about and it's not being saved, it's being rewarded. 

Yes God does love every single person that ever lived.

I certainly hope that you're not talking about John 3:16.  And if God loved every single person that ever lived what about the people that His Word specifically shows that He doesn't love?

 He loves them from their first breath, and before, but yes He does stop loving some of us before it's all over with.

And I will find that scripture.

I shudder to think you believe there is a verse which says that God stops loving some "before it's all over with."  And what is the "it" that is "all over with?"  Life?

And how does that mesh with your previous statement of "He understands that we all make mistakes, but yet He still never leaves us?"

Thanks,

God bless

Reformationist

25th February 2003, 04:39 PM

Today at 12:24 PM JesusLoveA said this in Post #47 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=675312#post675312)

and...............HAPPY BIRTHDAY to you! lol I hope it's merry!

Thank you very much! :)  

chelcb

25th February 2003, 05:31 PM

Today at 01:56 PM Reformationist said this in Post #38 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=675264#post675264)

Thank you m'dear. :)

 

No problem, here. I do understand the reformed view on this, I don’t agree, but I know it is not as it seems. But I am not allowed to discuss in this forum so I'll just go now before I get myself into any trouble. 

 

 

Reformationist

25th February 2003, 05:39 PM

Today at 01:31 PM chelcb said this in Post #50 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=675451#post675451) 

No problem, here. I do understand the reformed view on this, I don’t agree, but I know it is not as it seems.

I guess you know what it's like for people to misunderstand your views, huh? ;)

But I am not allowed to discuss in this forum so I'll just go now before I get myself into any trouble.

Who told you that?  Whoever it was was wrong.  You can post in any forum on this MB.

God bless

chelcb

25th February 2003, 05:59 PM

Yeah but I can not discuss something, only ask questions and when it is sufficiently answered then I should not pursue. I was PM about it.

SUNSTONE

25th February 2003, 08:42 PM

Today at 03:08 PM Reformationist said this in Post #43 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=675286#post675286)

Not sure if I understand what you're asking.  Do you mean, why are we saved?  If so, all I can say is because it pleased God to do so.  It certainly isn't based on our works.  If any of us were judged on our works we'd all be found lacking.

Thank God for His grace!!

God bless

No I want to know "what" you are saved from.

Reformationist

25th February 2003, 09:08 PM

Today at 01:59 PM chelcb said this in Post #52 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=675506#post675506)

Yeah but I can not discuss something, only ask questions and when it is sufficiently answered then I should not pursue. I was PM about it.

I see. Well, if you ever want to "discuss" something, feel free to PM me.

God bless,

Don

Reformationist

25th February 2003, 09:09 PM

Today at 04:42 PM SUNSTONE said this in Post #53 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=675783#post675783)

No I want to know "what" you are saved from.

Oh.  Sorry about that.  We are saved from the wrath of God.

God bless,

Don

SUNSTONE

25th February 2003, 09:25 PM

Thanx

So you are either saved, or not, correct?

You either recieve Gods mercy or His wrath?

SnuP

26th February 2003, 02:25 AM

That's funny I thought that we were saved from seperation from God. So some people only go fire insurance? anyways, God's will isn't that only some would be saved. His will is that man would choose salvation, choose Him. How is it love if there is no choice. Could I say that I love my wife if I made her choose me. Or even that she would love me.

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Reformationist

26th February 2003, 10:39 AM

Yesterday at 05:25 PM SUNSTONE said this in Post #56 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=675880#post675880)

Thanx

So you are either saved, or not, correct?

I'm not sure if you mean this as cut and dry as it sounds but I will say this, you are either saved now, will be saved in the future, or will never be saved. 

You either recieve Gods mercy or His wrath?

Again, I don't think this is an either/or situation.  I think all people receive some measure of God's mercy.  It's just that not all people receive God's salvitic grace.

God bless

Reformationist

26th February 2003, 10:52 AM

Yesterday at 10:25 PM SnuP said this in Post #57 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=676486#post676486)
anyways, God's will isn't that only some would be saved.  His will is that man would choose salvation, choose Him.

Well SnuP, that's certainly your perrogative to see it that way.  I would offer a different position though.  We don't choose salvation.  We, as saved individuals, choose to be obedient.  It seems like you totally disregard the nature of fallen man when discussing the freedom with which he can "choose salvation" or "choose God."

Fallen man does not desire the things of God, nor God Himself.  Fallen man does not love God.  Fallen man does not seek after God.  Fallen man does not posess any shard of righteousness that enables him to choose righteously.  It's just not part of his nature after the Fall.  So, attributing a person's salvation to them based on a decision they make while fallen is illogical at best.  Fallen man's nature must be changed before he will ever seek the Lord.  That change is called salvation.

How is it love if there is no choice.

You know, I hear this all the time.  I don't understand what you mean.  How is what love if there is no choice?  And also, who said that redeemed man has no choice to live obediently?  On the contrary, redeemed man is freer than unregenerate man.  Unregenerate man can only choose sinfully.  Regenerate man can choose both righteously and sinfully, and he makes each decision freely.  IOW, the decisions he makes are in accordance with his greatest desire.  He is not forced or coerced.

Could I say that I love my wife if I made her choose me.  Or even that she would love me.

This age old custom of comparing the motives and responses of created beings, us, to that of the Creator, God, is just plain senseless.  You are not God.  Your wife, as far as I know, is not depraved and evil, she is not your enemy, you are not hers, neither you nor her are capable of sovereignly making anything come to pass, much less by the power of your will.

SnuP, I truly understand why many people feel the way you do.  I would like to continue discussing this with you but, as I said, this will never be a progressive conversation if we continue to put God in the box that we are in.  God is not us.  We are not God.  Comparing us to God, or us to pre-Fall Adam and Eve, or us to angels is simply a incongruous premise to start on and can lead us in many unbiblical directions.

God bless

SUNSTONE

26th February 2003, 01:42 PM

Today at 09:39 AM Reformationist said this in Post #58 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=677147#post677147)

I'm not sure if you mean this as cut and dry as it sounds but I will say this, you are either saved now, will be saved in the future, or will never be saved. 

Again, I don't think this is an either/or situation.  I think all people receive some measure of God's mercy.  It's just that not all people receive God's salvitic grace.

God bless

So there are saved, going to be saved, and people who will never be saved. I agree.

Now you say that God saves everyone he wants, and that there isn't a single soul that could escape Gods salvation, if His will was for them to be saved.

So no one is saved that God doesn't want saved, according to what you believe. With that belief you must come to the conclusion that God only wants to save some from His wrath, and the others, it is His will that they suffer His wrath. Man has no choice, it is totally up to God who gets saved from His wrath, and who doesn't get saved, from His wrath, according to what you believe.I am talking about when you die, you either recieve Gods wrath, or His mercy.

If God only saves those that are His will to save, what happens to the rest?

SnuP

26th February 2003, 02:02 PM

Today at 08:52 AM Reformationist said this in Post #59 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=677166#post677166)

Well SnuP, that's certainly your perrogative to see it that way.  I would offer a different position though.  We don't choose salvation.  We, as saved individuals, choose to be obedient.  It seems like you totally disregard the nature of fallen man when discussing the freedom with which he can "choose salvation" or "choose God."

Fallen man does not desire the things of God, nor God Himself.  Fallen man does not love God.  Fallen man does not seek after God.  Fallen man does not posess any shard of righteousness that enables him to choose righteously.  It's just not part of his nature after the Fall.  So, attributing a person's salvation to them based on a decision they make while fallen is illogical at best.  Fallen man's nature must be changed before he will ever seek the Lord.  That change is called salvation.

Please show scripurally your position on the absolute state of fallen man.  In my opinion I have not forgotten the state of fallen man, but I would like to see where you have gotton your opinion of that state from.

You know, I hear this all the time.  I don't understand what you mean.  How is what love if there is no choice?  And also, who said that redeemed man has no choice to live obediently?  On the contrary, redeemed man is freer than unregenerate man.  Unregenerate man can only choose sinfully.  Regenerate man can choose both righteously and sinfully, and he makes each decision freely.  IOW, the decisions he makes are in accordance with his greatest desire.  He is not forced or coerced.

But he is forced into heaven, and is given, according to this doctrine, a love for God outside of his will to love God.  Love does not force itself upon others.  According to this doctrine, man has no choice to be changed, saved, gain love, or heaven.

This age old custom of comparing the motives and responses of created beings, us, to that of the Creator, God, is just plain senseless.  You are not God.  Your wife, as far as I know, is not depraved and evil, she is not your enemy, you are not hers, neither you nor her are capable of sovereignly making anything come to pass, much less by the power of your will.

While it is true that I am not God, I do have the nature of God in me, and the nature of God is love, and God has clearly defined love in the scriptures, so yes the comparison is valid.  Again the real problem is our differing deffinitions to the extent of the depravity of fallen man, so I again ask that you show scriptural support for your position.

SnuP, I truly understand why many people feel the way you do.  I would like to continue discussing this with you but, as I said, this will never be a progressive conversation if we continue to put God in the box that we are in.  God is not us.  We are not God.  Comparing us to God, or us to pre-Fall Adam and Eve, or us to angels is simply a incongruous premise to start on and can lead us in many unbiblical directions.

God bless

And I will ask you a question, is a disobedient man saved?  You have said that we are free to be obedient.  Why would God save a person who is going to be disobedient?  and if God is so sovereign to change a person then why is the change so incomplete, why is there still disobedience everywhere?  Did He save us from hell just so that we could have the freedom to be disobedient, disobedient in heaven?  None of this makes sence to me.

SnuP

26th February 2003, 02:05 PM

my post has change I messed up on the quoting thing so please recheck it.

Reformationist

26th February 2003, 02:11 PM

Today at 09:42 AM SUNSTONE said this in Post #60 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=677396#post677396)

If God only saves those that are His will to save, what happens to the rest?

They go to hell.

SnuP

26th February 2003, 02:13 PM

so God creates people just so that they can go to hell?

SUNSTONE

26th February 2003, 02:24 PM

According to your beliefs, it is Gods will that some goto hell.

SnuP

26th February 2003, 02:32 PM

"For God so loved the world... " Except for those He wants to go to hell.

Reformationist

26th February 2003, 03:01 PM

Today at 10:02 AM SnuP said this in Post #61 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=677426#post677426)

Please show scripurally your position on the absolute state of fallen man.  In my opinion I have not forgotten the state of fallen man, but I would like to see where you have gotton your opinion of that state from.

Romans 3:10-18
As it is written:

        "There is none righteous, no, not one; 
        There is none who understands;
        There is none who seeks after God. 
        They have all turned aside;
        They have together become unprofitable;
        There is none who does good, no, not one." 
        "Their throat is an open tomb;
        With their tongues they have practiced deceit"; 
        "The poison of asps is under their lips"; 
        "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness." 
        "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 
        Destruction and misery are in their ways; 
        And the way of peace they have not known." 
        "There is no fear of God before their eyes." 

But he is forced into heaven, and is given, according to this doctrine, a love for God outside of his will to love God.  Love does not force itself upon others.  According to this doctrine, man has no choice to be changed, saved, gain love, or heaven.

Well, that definitely sounds like man is forced, but only if you believe fallen man would, of his own fallen will, ever freely come to God.  The truth of salvation is that he would not.  Prior to the Fall man had the ability to make righteous choices and sinful choices.  I would not say that his will was "free" because he was still limited in what he could bring about, but he was definitely much freer than man post-Fall.  When man fell from grace his nature was corrupted.  The term used by those that hold to this belief is "total depravity."  I do not think this term is very helpful because "total" can be taken numerous ways and more often than not it is interpreted incorrectly.  The correct use of the word "total," in this sense, refers to the completeness of fallen man's corruption, i.e., that every part of his being was corrupted by sin.  "Total" is not a reference to level of depravity, i.e., that fallen man is as bad as he could possibly be.  Fallen man had no inherent righteousness, therefore he could make no righteous choice.  "Choosing to live a life of obedience to God" is a righteous choice, therefore fallen man's nature, being at enmity with God, would never make this choice.  Biblical love and biblical hate are much different than the context in which we, as humans who are often led by our emotions, use the words.  Biblical love is not an emotion.  It is an action.  Biblical love is giving the recipient of your love that which they most need with no regard for yourself.  Biblical hate is not active, as we would use the term "hate."  When we say we "hate" something or someone our feelings are active.  We normally do something, even if it is as simple as having bad thoughts toward something or someone.  Conversely, biblical hate is passive.  Biblical hate is just not extending to the recipient that which they most need.  I'll give you an example:

Proverbs 13:24
He who spares his rod hates his son,
        But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.

Now, most people would not say that if someone didn't "promptly discipline" their son that they "hate" them.  But what this means is that loving your child (giving the recipient of your love that which they most need with no regard for yourself) means that you will promptly discipline your child to train them and you will do so without considering how their actions affected you but rather you do so to teach them godly character.  In this verse the man who fails to promptly discipline his son is "hating" him because he's not teaching him that which he needs.

Another, more well known verse, is another good example:

Romans 9:13
As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

In this instance the same idea is shown.  To Jacob God gave that which Jacob most needed, salvitic grace, with no regard for the enmity between Himself and Jacob, who was fallen.  However, to Esau, God did not actively work evil into his heart.  Esau was already fallen.  All God did was not give Esau that which he most needed, salvitic grace.

There is another meaning for biblical hate and it is shown here:

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple."

Now obviously the Lord is not telling us to "hate" our family.  What He is saying is that that if anyone comes to Him and loves his family more than he loves God he cannot serve God loyally, as shown here:

Luke 16:13
"No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other.

So, we must love our family but we must love the Lord even more than we love our family.

Let me clarify my opinion on the process of salvation.  First off, salvation is cannot be summed up by saying it's an instantaneous thing.  Yes, when the Lord saves us eternally we are saved, forever after.  But salvation as a whole is a progressive thing.  We are eternally saved from the wrath of God, we are being saved from our fallenness through sanctification, and we will be finally saved when we are glorified.  Man is not "saved" against his will because when God regenerates a fallen (dead) creation He gives us a new desire.  It is our greatest desire to be saved.  It was not, however, the natural inclination of fallen man.  So, man does, in a sense, "have a choice."  One theologian, his name escapes me, once said, "Man MUST ALWAYS choose according to his greatest desire or inclination at the time."  No matter what decision you make you make it because it's your greatest desire or inclination.  The problem with fallen man is that his greatest desire or inclination is NEVER to serve God so he will NEVER freely choose to serve God.  That's why it's referred to as being "in bondage" to our fallenness.  When we are fallen we always serve our flesh and our flesh always rebels against godliness.

While it is true that I am not God, I do have the nature of God in me, and the nature of God is love, and God has clearly defined love in the scriptures, so yes the comparison is valid.  Again the real problem is our differing deffinitions to the extent of the depravity of fallen man, so I again ask that you show scriptural support for your position.

Yes, but you are regenerate.  You are no longer depraved.  You are no longer fallen, at least not in the eternal sense.  Saying that a saved individual has the ability to exhibit the love of God is not in question.  I have been referring to the nature of fallen man, which has not been imputed with the righteousness of Christ, nor is fallen man given a nature that seeks to please God.

And I will ask you a question, is a disobedient man saved?

I don't think I can answer that question.  There are saved disobedient people and unsaved disobedient people.  Getting our salvation wasn't a result of being "obedient" so judging someone's state of salvation is not something I am commanded to do, in fact I'm commanded to not do it.

You have said that we are free to be obedient.

Yes, if you're saved.

Why would God save a person who is going to be disobedient?  and if God is so sovereign to change a person then why is the change so incomplete, why is there still disobedience everywhere?

I was going to answer these separately but the answer applies to both.  "Disobedience," and I assume that you mean "disobeying the Word of God," is one of the methods that God uses to conform us to the image of righteousness, to the image of His Son.  God uses your wife's disobedience to put you in a position where you can exhibit the grace of God and respond to her in godliness.  How could you learn to respond in godliness if you never encountered a disagreeable person?  God works ALL things to your good, all of them, even the sinfulness of others.

Did He save us from hell just so that we could have the freedom to be disobedient, disobedient in heaven?  None of this makes sence to me.

Don't confuse the nature of regenerate man to the nature of glorified man.  In this broken vessel we often succumb to our old, fallen nature, that still resides in us and sometimes we respond according to our new, regenerate nature.  It is this battle of our old nature against our new nature that builds godly character.  Has anyone ever yelled at you and your first inclination was to yell back?  Has God ever given you the grace to respond to that type of thing in a godly way?  Don't you learn more about the grace of God when you see that His Word is effectual in a real practical sense?  I remember one time my wife was in a really bad mood and she yelled at me, and I could tell it was just the start.  She was gearing up.  The first thing I wanted to do was yell back.  Then I thought, I should deal with this in a godly way.  God says that a soft word turns aside wrath.  So, I tried that.  Well, it was like all of a sudden all the wind came out of her sails and she wasn't sure what to do.  What she did do was immediately, and I mean immediately, calmed down.  You wanta talk about the grace of God?  That was it.  Anyway, when we are glorified we will have no desire to rebel against God's Law and our greatest desire will always be to obey, and that is what we will freely do.

God bless

Reformationist

26th February 2003, 03:07 PM

Today at 10:13 AM SnuP said this in Post #64 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=677440#post677440)

so God creates people just so that they can go to hell?

I never said that was their only purpose.  God uses those that He does not save to conform His chosen.  But yes, God's Will is that some people will go to Hell:

Romans 9:21-24
Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?  What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Now I don't know about you, but to me, "vessels of wrath pre(that means before)pared for destruction" and "vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory" is pretty clear.  The verse tells us plainly that the Potter (God) has power of His own creation to create from the same lump (Adam) one vessel for honor (the elect) and another for dishonor (the reprobate).

God bless

JesusServant

26th February 2003, 03:13 PM

I posted something OT in another thread. Thought I'd duplicate it here so that you guys could help me with the couple of questions I posted...
Can anyone explain how all of these are not true?

1 Timothy 2:4 God will have all to be saved

1 Timothy 2:6 Salvation of all is testified in due time

Ephesians 1:11 God works all after the counsel of His will

John 12:47 Jesus came to save all

John 4:42 Jesus is the Savior of the world

1 John 4:14 Jesus is the Savior of the world

John 12:32 Jesus draws all to Himself

Hebrews 7:25 Jesus is able to save to the uttermost

Colossians 1:15 Jesus is the firstborn of all creation

Colossians 1:16 By Him all things were created

Romans 5:15-21 In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live

1 Corinthians 15:22 In Adam all die, in Christ all live

Ephesians 1:10 All come into Him at the fullness of times

1 Corinthians 15:26 Last enemy, death, will be destroyed

Philippians 2:9-11 Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord

1 Corinthians 12:3 Cannot confess except by the Holy Spirit

Romans 11:26 All Israel will be saved

Acts 3:20-21 Restitution of all

Luke 2:10 Jesus will be joy to all people

Ephesians 2:7 His grace shown in the ages to come

Hebrews 8:11-12 All will know God

Titus 2:11 Grace has appeared to all

Romans 8:19-21 Creation set at liberty

Colossians 1:20 All reconciled unto God

1 Corinthians 4:5 All will have praise of God

James 5:11 End of the Lord is full of mercy

Revelation 15:4 All nations worship when judgments are seen

II Corinthians 5:17 New creation in Christ

Romans 11:32 All subject to unbelief, mercy on all

Romans 11:36 All out of God, through Him, and into Him

Ephesians 4:10 Jesus will fill all things

Revelation 5:13 All creation seen praising God

1 Corinthians 15:28 God will be all in all

Revelation 21:4-5 No more tears, all things made new

John 5:25 All dead who hear will live

John 5:28 All in the grave will hear and come forth

Mark 9:49 Everyone shall be salted with fire

Romans 11:15 Reconciliation of the world

II Corinthians 5:15 Jesus died for all

John 8:29 He always does what pleases His Father

Hebrews 1:2 He is heir of all things

John 3:35 All has been given into His hand

John 17:2 Jesus will give eternal life to all whom His Father gives to Him

John 13:3 The Father gave Him all things

I Timothy 4:9-11 Jesus is the Savior of all

Isaiah 46:10 God will do all His pleasure

Daniel 4:35 God's will done in heaven and earth

Proverbs 16:9 Man devises, God directs his steps

Proverbs 19:21 Man devises, but God's counsel stands

Psalms 33:15 God fashions all hearts

Deuteronomy 32:39 God kills and makes alive

Psalms 90:3 God turns man to destruction then says "return"

Lamentations 3:31,32 God will not cast off forever

Isaiah 2:2 All nations shall flow to the Lord's house

Genesis 18:18 All families of earth will be blessed

Isaiah 45:23 All descendants of Israel justified

Psalms 138:4 All kings will praise God

Psalms 72:18 God only does wondrous things

Psalms 86:9 All nations will worship God

Psalms 65:2-4 All flesh will come to God

Psalms 66:3-4 Enemies will submit to God

Isaiah 19:14-25 Egypt and Assyria will be restored

Ezekiel 16:55 Sodom will be restored

Psalms 22:25-29 All will turn to the Lord and all families will worship before Him

Psalms 145:9-10 He is good to all and merciful to all His work

Psalms 145:14 God raises all who fall

Psalms 145:16 God satisfied the desire of the living

Isaiah 25:6 Lord makes feast for all people

Isaiah 25:7 Will destroy veil that is spread over all nations

Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory

Jeremiah 32:35 Never entered His mind to burn people in fire

Psalms 135:6 God does what pleases Him

I firmly believe in following a simple rule when studying Scripture. When the Bible says this or that, always find out what it also says. God has made promises in the list I've provided that will come to pass. God will not go back on a promise. So I have a hard time believing that He, in his infinite wisdom and knowledge doesn't have a plan beyond our comprehension.

I know it is overwhelming to answer all the Scripture provided. So I ask anyone to answer this one simple question if you don't want to take on the Scriptures I posted...

If God wants us to love Him, not because we're like robots, but because we really love Him, then why would He ever threaten us with Hell as the alternative?

Reformationist

26th February 2003, 03:15 PM

Today at 10:24 AM SUNSTONE said this in Post #65 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=677450#post677450)

According to your beliefs, it is Gods will that some goto hell.

Sunstone, everyone would go to hell if God did not intervene.  And that was most assuredly God's Will.  You make it sound as if we're not created beings.  Wonderfully and gloriously made, yes, but created nonetheless.  Why would we question God sending His own creation to destruction?  We're His creation.  We're not autonomous.  If you created an ashtray and after you created it threw it in a fire and burned it up does the ashtray have the right to say, "Hey, that's not fair!!"  What would you say?  You'd say, "What are you talking about?  I created you.  I can do whatever I want."  I know that's a strange analogy but the point is that we don't deserve salvation, not even after we're saved.  No one, and I mean no one, is always sinless.  God said the wages of sin is death.  He didn't say the wages of sin unrepented for is death.  So, if you only commited one sin in your entire life, you earned hell.  If God saves you from that deserved fate and not someone else does that mean God was unfair to the one He didn't save?  Of course not.  If you want to get technical, the one He was unfair to was you.  If He gave you what was fair you'd go to hell just like the other guy.  That's why it's grace, because you didn't deserve it.

God bless

Reformationist

26th February 2003, 03:19 PM

Today at 10:32 AM SnuP said this in Post #66 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=677467#post677467)

"For God so loved the world... " Except for those He wants to go to hell.

SnuP, the word "world" is used something like nine DIFFERENT ways in the Bible.  Do you think that just because you interpret "world" to mean every person that that's what it has to mean?  What about the verses that specifically talk about those that God hates.  Do you think God loves those He hates?  What about those that go to hell?  Do you think God is sitting there in Heaven loving those that are eternally condemned?  Do you believe God, knowing who would and who wouldn't be saved, set Himself up for eternal disappointment for those He knew would not be saved?

Reformationist

26th February 2003, 03:25 PM

JS, was that post directed at me?  If so, I couldn't begin to comment on them.  Every single one of those partial verses is taken out of context and can mean any number of things.

Today at 11:13 AM JesusServant said this in Post #69 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=677525#post677525)

If God wants us to love Him, not because we're like robots, but because we really love Him, then why would He ever threaten us with Hell as the alternative?[/size]

Because God is just.  Just because He tells us the punishment for our sinfulness doesn't make Him obligated to enable us to live obediently.  Not to mention, I'm not aware of any passage in Scripture that exemplifies God threatening saved individuals with eternal damnation.  Maybe you could provide an example.  Just one will do. ;)

God bless,

Don

JesusServant

26th February 2003, 03:36 PM

No Ref. It wasn't directed at you at all. I found them on a website and I don't care how partial they are. I know we have to keep everything in context. But the more I study Scripture the more evidence I'm finding that God is promising that all will be saved.

I use that exact same 'argument' for lack of a better term when describing how God must be just to be good, if He wasn't just then how could He be good? But that doesn't help me witness to people when they ask, questions like "If God knows before a human soul is formed that it will suffer in eternal torment then why make that human just so it can end up suffering in eternal damnation?" I can't answer that question and it plagues me. I know I am redeemed, but I refuse to threaten other people into accepting Jesus because the alternative is damnation in hellfire. Get what I mean?

Reformationist

26th February 2003, 03:44 PM

Today at 11:36 AM JesusServant said this in Post #73 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=677584#post677584)

No Ref. It wasn't directed at you at all. I found them on a website and I don't care how partial they are. I know we have to keep everything in context. But the more I study Scripture the more evidence I'm finding that God is promising that all will be saved.

Well, universalism can be very appealing.  I know that if you are considering that point of view it stems from a desire for everyone to experience the love of God.  It just shows that you care about others.  I would encourage you to continue studying though.  I don't personally see any support for that belief. 

But that doesn't help me witness to people when they ask, questions like "If God knows before a human soul is formed that it will suffer in eternal torment then why make that human just so it can end up suffering in eternal damnation?" I can't answer that question and it plagues me.

As difficult as it is to deal with sometimes we have to understand that it is God who enlightens His creation.  You could be the most prolific, well versed evangelist in the world and if you are speaking to someone that is unregenerate it is of little use, unless of course you're looking to waste a few hours.  The real issue is that we don't know whom God has redeemed so we are commissioned to spread the Word to all people.

I know I am redeemed, but I refuse to threaten other people into accepting Jesus because the alternative is damnation in hellfire. Get what I mean?

I understand what you're getting at, but I must say that it's not a biblically based line of reasoning.  People "accept Jesus" because they are saved, not so they can be saved.  The "alternative" to not being saved by God is definitely damnation but it is your job to trust God and understand that it is His sovereign design to bring some to a saving knowledge of Himself and leave others to their fallenness.

God bless

JesusServant

26th February 2003, 04:55 PM

The "alternative" to not being saved by God is definitely damnation but it is your job to trust God and understand that it is His sovereign design to bring some to a saving knowledge of Himself and leave others to their fallenness.

God bless [/B]

But doesn't that very standpoint bring God's justness into question?  I know God to be perfect.  His perfection is beyond my current reasoning.  His love for me and man in general is so strong and I feel it in an overwhelming way sometimes to the point that it is almost too much love because if He didn't hold back I'd go into  despression trying to live this life without that feeling and knowledge of His love constantly with me.  But this very love is so pure Ref that the more I come to know God the harder it is for me to believe He wants any of His children to suffer in eternal torment, especially if they've been tricked or mislead into it unwittingly.

It does come down to trust and we have to trust in things not seen.  I do, and so do many others who disagree on basic principals of the Bible.  I feel like I'm missing something very large that God will reveal to me soon but I'm growing impatient.  Pray for me please, I know God has plans for me that are going to blow my tiny mind when they are revealed to me.  These are two issues that I am sure He will bring peace to my heart about, but like I said, I'm impatient.  :) 

BTW,  I don't think I have anything to offer anyone, but I do have a big heart.  I've often said my heart is too big.  Ref, I'm a 29 year old man that can hardly watch the news because I tear up and even weep at the events I see unfolding.  I often wonder, is this because of me, or is this God dwelling in me that gives me this love for others.  I believe it is God dwelling in me that gives me this heart for the world.

Reformationist

26th February 2003, 05:22 PM

Today at 12:55 PM JesusServant said this in Post #75 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=677717#post677717)

But doesn't that very standpoint bring God's justness into question?

In what way?  God's justness does not require Him to treat all people the same.  "Just" does not mean "equilateral."  The justness of God is not contingent upon us.  "Just" means "conforming to a standard of correctness; acting or being in conformity with what is morally upright or good; legally correct."  It is a perfectly just, and righteous action for God to send sinners to hell.  The assumption I think most people make is that because God acts one way toward some people He is then obligated to act the same way to everyone else.  No where in the Bible is that supposition borne out.  God extends His grace, in every form imaginable, all throughout the Word.  God is consistant in His justness, not His methods.

But this very love is so pure Ref that the more I come to know God the harder it is for me to believe He wants any of His children to suffer in eternal torment, especially if they've been tricked or mislead into it unwittingly.

He doesn't.  Those that go to hell are not children of God.  They are a creation of God, but not His children in the sense that He works all things to their good:

John 1:12,13
But as many as received Him, TO THEM He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Not everyone is a child of God.  Only those that were born of the Will of God.

Pray for me please, I know God has plans for me that are going to blow my tiny mind when they are revealed to me.  These are two issues that I am sure He will bring peace to my heart about, but like I said, I'm impatient.  :)

I certainly will pray for you.  And, I encourage you to acknowledge that even if those plans seem very inconsequential to you they are important.  Ironically, many people see godly people and say stuff like, "Now there's someone that God can use" as if our skills, which He gave us in the first place, are pivotal to God's Plan.  I often hear people say that they believe God will give them some huge ministry but the strange thing is I never hear anyone say, "I think God wants me to be a lowly, unrecognized, unappreciated servant of others."  I see these people on TBN and it blows my mind that they think they represent Christ.  They are bedecked in stuff so expensive that it's gaudy, preaching to a mass of people, getting worldwide acclaim and I think, "How in the world is that like Christ?"  Christ came to serve.  People, even Christians for the most part, unfortunately measure someone's success by materialistic things.  A man is considered successful if he has a nice house, a pretty wife, a good job, and a nice car, and good social standing.  None of those things are important to God.  We place value on those things.  The most important job God has given me is to be a godly husband to my wife and a godly father to my children whom He has entrusted into my care.  He doesn't care whether I have a nice car.  Anyway, didn't mean to rant, I just want you to know that it is the way you deal with the plans God has for you that matters, not how great the plans seem.

BTW,  I don't think I have anything to offer anyone, but I do have a big heart.  I've often said my heart is too big.  Ref, I'm a 29 year old man that can hardly watch the news because I tear up and even weep at the events I see unfolding.  I often wonder, is this because of me, or is this God dwelling in me that gives me this love for others.  I believe it is God dwelling in me that gives me this heart for the world.

I think your love for others is, from what I can tell, the most obvious thing about your personality.  And don't downplay how valuable that is.  Look what God said:

1 Corinthians 13:13
And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

God bless my brother,

Don

JesusLoveA

26th February 2003, 05:44 PM

I don't agree with your veiw on this but, that's life ha?
We do have to do something to be saved. You just don't wake up one morning and bam! Your saved. You have to ask God into your heart to stay and tell Him that your a sinner,and that you believe He died on the cross to wash those sins away,and make you a new person in Christ. Then you have to make sacrifices and changes in your liffe so that you can have a closer walk with God. That is unles you want to be a 'easy' christian.
You have to meet God half way, with your sacrifces.

JesusServant

26th February 2003, 05:44 PM

I can't disagree with anything you posted there Ref. You are right on. When I say He has plans for me, it has nothing to do with the TBN style of large, but on a servant style of large. I couldn't agree with you more about how people forget that we are servants of Christ not that He is to serve us as much material wealth as possible. As far as finances go, my goal is to be debt free (because the borrower is slave to the lender), other than that I need nothing more but to serve God. Heck, that's why I chose this name for CF. It is the name we should all use. We are all Jesus servants :)

My grandfather, through Christ, taught me the importance of family, love, honor, hard work. These things are beyond most of today's Americans and I fear bad things are coming for this nation because of it. Not necessarily because God is going to punish this nation like Sodom, but because this nation is self destructing, forgetting who and why we were flourishing in the first place. This nation has forgotten it's first love. :(

JesusServant

26th February 2003, 05:49 PM

Today at 03:44 PM JesusLoveA said this in Post #77 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=677810#post677810)

I don't agree with your veiw on this but, that's life ha?
We do have to do something to be saved. You just don't wake up one morning and bam! Your saved. You have to ask God into your heart to stay and tell Him that your a sinner,and that you believe He died on the cross to wash those sins away,and make you a new person in Christ. Then you have to make sacrifices and changes in your liffe so that you can have a closer walk with God. That is unles you want to be a 'easy' christian.
You have to meet God half way, with your sacrifces.

You haven't been here long enough to know you are preaching to the choir if you're talking to me.  :)  I'm just having a hard time with Hell right now and am seeking input on it.  My hope is in Christ and if it's up to me to stay out of hell then I'm doomed.  Thank God for Jesus eh? :)

I don't go willynilly sinning everywhere.  My sins are self inflicted like maybe an immoral thought.  My soul is getting stronger in rising above my flesh.  Man that flesh is hard on a soul.

p.s. Third Day ROCKS!  Look for the "The Christian Hang Out" thread in this forum.

JesusLoveA

26th February 2003, 05:54 PM

Alright. And yeah they do! LOL ;)

JesusLoveA

26th February 2003, 05:55 PM

lol how do I get to that? I'm new here as you can tell.

JesusServant

26th February 2003, 06:01 PM

Today at 03:54 PM JesusLoveA said this in Post #80 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=677833#post677833)

Alright. And yeah they do! LOL ;)

I saw them live with 15,000 other people praising the Lord.  I can't wait to be at another event like that.  It was awesome.  We jumped up and down on the devil's playground singing praises to God.  :clap: :clap: :clap:

JesusServant

26th February 2003, 06:02 PM

Today at 03:55 PM JesusLoveA said this in Post #81 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=677834#post677834)

lol how do I get to that? I'm new here as you can tell.

At the top of your screen, click on "Non-Denominational/Reformed/Protestant Room"  then scroll down until you see "The Christian Hang Out".  God bless!

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/35302.html

Or just click on this link :)

JesusServant

26th February 2003, 06:04 PM

BBL guys. Thanks for all the input so far and I look forward to reading more later :)

Reformationist

26th February 2003, 06:15 PM

Today at 01:44 PM JesusLoveA said this in Post #77 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=677810#post677810)

We do have to do something to be saved. You just don't wake up one morning and bam! Your saved. You have to ask God into your heart to stay and tell Him that your a sinner,and that you believe He died on the cross to wash those sins away,and make you a new person in Christ. Then you have to make sacrifices and changes in your liffe so that you can have a closer walk with God. That is unles you want to be a 'easy' christian.
You have to meet God half way, with your sacrifces.

Let me see if I understand what you're saying.  I have to "ask God into my heart to stay," "tell Him I'm a sinner," "tell Him that I believe He died on the cross to wash away my sins," "ask Him to make me a new creation," "make sacrifices," and "change my life," did I get it all?  Wow!  You sure do think you have to do a lot to be saved.  That doesn't sound like being saved.  That sounds a whole lot like you earned it.  What exactly was it that the death of Jesus did for you?  It seems like you're saying His death is useless if you don't do all this other stuff.  How exactly do you come to the conclusion that salvation is a gift of God's grace (I'm assuming you believe this because you are Christian) if it's based on the merits of all this stuff you "have to do to be saved?"  It's sounds more like the wages for doing all the right things rather than unmerited favor, which is what grace is.

God bless

Reformationist

26th February 2003, 06:18 PM

Today at 01:44 PM JesusServant said this in Post #78 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=677815#post677815)

As far as finances go, my goal is to be debt free (because the borrower is slave to the lender)

I totally agree that with this.  Good money management is something that even Christians who are obedient for the most part don't focus on, that is until it's a problem.  Then they want to know where God was and why He didn't protect them from being broke.:D

God bless

JesusServant

27th February 2003, 12:40 PM

Yesterday at 04:15 PM Reformationist said this in Post #85 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=677884#post677884)

Let me see if I understand what you're saying.  I have to "ask God into my heart to stay," "tell Him I'm a sinner," "tell Him that I believe He died on the cross to wash away my sins," "ask Him to make me a new creation," "make sacrifices," and "change my life," did I get it all?  Wow!  You sure do think you have to do a lot to be saved.  That doesn't sound like being saved.  That sounds a whole lot like you earned it.  What exactly was it that the death of Jesus did for you?  It seems like you're saying His death is useless if you don't do all this other stuff.  How exactly do you come to the conclusion that salvation is a gift of God's grace (I'm assuming you believe this because you are Christian) if it's based on the merits of all this stuff you "have to do to be saved?"  It's sounds more like the wages for doing all the right things rather than unmerited favor, which is what grace is.

God bless

I somewhat see what you're getting at here Ref.  But we have to accept that gift.  We can turn our backs on that free gift and deny it and tell God we want no part of it.  You made a decision to post here, so obviously you have free will Ref ;)

Reformationist

27th February 2003, 01:32 PM

Today at 08:40 AM JesusServant said this in Post #87 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=679329#post679329)

You made a decision to post here, so obviously you have free will Ref ;)

JS, what is free will to you?  Is it just the ability to make choices?  If so, then we are being anti-progressive and it will find it's way into every part of our theology.  These are huge words with huge meanings.  "Free" does not just mean "uncoerced."  When you say "free" with regard to your "will" you are saying that your ability to make choices is not determined by anything beyond the nature or being of your decision.  That's what "free" means.  It's a hugely significant word.  The fact that you can choose what clothes to wear and what MB to post on and what to say and how fast to drive on the freeway doesn't in any real sense mean that your "will" is "free."  "Free will" is the ability to make ANY AND ALL decisions in a given situation.  Do you still think that describes your will?

God bless

JesusServant

27th February 2003, 04:36 PM

So God forces some of us to love Him and others He doesn't? I don't see what you're getting at.

We only have so much that we can control and that is our free will. You are taking it a lot deeper and saying that if any outside source whatsoever can sway us then it isn't a free choice, something has effected that decision.

Take our freedom in this country. I'm sure, by your post, you'll agree that we aren't as free as we should be or as free as politicians like to allude to. But we are still more free than any other nation. Religion alone is proof of that. Now I can't go shoot someone and keep my freedom, so I guess I'm not free? Where does it end Ref? We do make decisions and every aspect of our lives is not controlled by other forces or people, wouldn't you agree? Or do you see us as mere puppets for God's pleasure?

Reformationist

27th February 2003, 05:55 PM

Today at 12:36 PM JesusServant said this in Post #89 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=679775#post679775)

So God forces some of us to love Him and others He doesn't? I don't see what you're getting at.

No.  Not at all.  Those that love God freely love Him but they freely choose to love Him because they have been given a new nature.  God's sovereign introduction of a new nature into His chosen isn't "forcing them to love Him."  It's enabling them to love Him. 

We only have so much that we can control and that is our free will.

Okay.  I don't know that I'd say there is anything that we "control" but I agree that there are definitely things that we make choices about.  What I'm getting at is do you think that the decisions that you do make are made without any influence from anything outside the nature of that decision?  For instance, when you go to buy a car you might say you "freely choose" which car to buy, right?  Is that choice really free?  I'll acknowledge that the decision that you do make is not coerced but to say that it's "free" means that when you go to buy a car nothing influences which car you choose.  If something influences it it's not freely made.  We are limited by so many things that to say that any decision we make is freely made is just illogical.  We are limited by finances, intellect, physical ability, our fallen nature, etc.  Acknowledging all that how can any decision you make be "freely" made?  How about you give me an example of a decision you have made that was "freely" made, that is, not influenced by anything outside your desire to make that decision.

You are taking it a lot deeper and saying that if any outside source whatsoever can sway us then it isn't a free choice, something has effected that decision.

But that is the truth.  "Free" means not influenced by any outside source.  If a decision is made based on any outside influence then it is not freely made. 

Take our freedom in this country. I'm sure, by your post, you'll agree that we aren't as free as we should be or as free as politicians like to allude to. But we are still more free than any other nation. Religion alone is proof of that. Now I can't go shoot someone and keep my freedom, so I guess I'm not free? Where does it end Ref? We do make decisions and every aspect of our lives is not controlled by other forces or people, wouldn't you agree? Or do you see us as mere puppets for God's pleasure?

No, I don't see us as puppets but the ability to make a decision doesn't mean that that decision is freely made.  "Free" is not a relative word.  You are either free to do something or you are not.  The example that you note just confirms what I'm saying.  Yes, you can, of your own volition, choose to go shoot someone.  However, having the ability to go do so and even going and doing it don't necessarily indicate a freedom to do it.  God does not even have "free will."  He can sovereignly do just about anything.  However, even He is limited by His own Word.  A difference in the freedom that God enjoys compared to our freedom is the scope of that freedom.  You and I are able to make decisions about a limited number of things.  Those decisions are definitely influenced by many things.  Are you free to decide to jump to the moon?  If not then you don't have free will.  You only have the ability to make decisions about the things that are within your scope of things to make decisions about.  And, even those decisions are influenced by many things.  Sorry man, to my knowledge, the Bible never says we are free.  In fact, the Bible plainly states that we are either slaves to sin or slaves to God.

Again, give me an example of a "freely made" choice and let's figure out if it was influenced by anything outside of your desire to make that decision.

God bless

JesusServant

27th February 2003, 06:27 PM

Okay Ref, you're completely taking what I mean by freewill and blowing it up into something much more complicated. I never thought I'd meet someone that thinks too much like I do, but tag, you're it! :)

I have given over my will to God's will. I don't want control of my own life, I want God to direct my steps because decisions I make are terrible. God has placed His word here for us to go by and make those decisions, but when I give over my will to God and ask Him to run my life, then does He? Or can I still choose? What about when I change my mind? Was that because I'm a robot and God changed it or because I decided against an earlier decision? We could go on and on.

The Bible never shows God saying, "oh you poor slaves, I have pity on you because you are enslaved." to the Hebrews, instead God moves and leads them out of captivity, yet when they go against God they go back into captivity throughout the OT. Maybe this is symbolic of how God works in our individual lives as well. Like you said, either we submit to God or submit to 'the world'. Either way we're not free and never will be. I know I don't ever want to make a decision that would go against God and the only way that is possible is if God leads because my flesh interferes with what my spirit/heart wants to do.

Reformationist

27th February 2003, 07:32 PM

Today at 02:27 PM JesusServant said this in Post #91 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=680055#post680055)

God has placed His word here for us to go by and make those decisions, but when I give over my will to God and ask Him to run my life, then does He? Or can I still choose? What about when I change my mind? Was that because I'm a robot and God changed it or because I decided against an earlier decision? We could go on and on.

Let me reiterate.  Being able to make decisions doesn't make your will free.  Let me ask you a question.  Is there any decision that you can make that is not influenced by at least one of the following: your fallen nature, your love for God, your physical ability, your intellectual capacity, or your finances?  If not, then the mere fact that you can make a decision doesn't make whatever decision you do make uninfluenced by anything outside itself and therefore, is not "free."  Uncoerced maybe, but not free.  Think about when you were first saved.  If you were like most people who were saved later in life you were probably "on fire to serve the Lord" and didn't know hardly anything about doing it, right?  Now, just becuase you are saved, does that mean that your old man (habitual ways of dealing with things, ingrained sinful responses to temptation, etc) were immediately gone?  Of course not.  So, let's say you get up one morning and pick out some clothes.  Now, no one was in your ear forcing you to pick one particular outfit over another, right?  Does that mean that you freely made the choice?  Could you possibly have been limited or influenced in your decision as to what to wear?  How about by what was clean?  You own vain notions as to what would look best on you?  Whether you had a meeting that day and had to dress in a tie?  If anything like this influenced the decision that you made then it wasn't "freely" made.  Yes, you are the one who made the decision and no one forced you.  But there are considerations for every single decision we make, except maybe reflex.

I'm not trying to get to deep in this but this deeply affects people's view on man's "free" ability to acknowledge Jesus as Lord and Savior while still fallen and depraved.  It just isn't a possibility.  Man, in his fallen state, is not free to "come to God."  God is fallen man's enemy.  The Bible is very clear on that.  If we don't acknowledge mankind's inability to freely come to Christ then how can we ever truly appreciate the magnificence of our salvation?  If we weren't unable to alter our situation then the most we can credit God with is rewarding us for making the right decision.

God bless,

Don

JesusServant

27th February 2003, 08:02 PM

Well, I don't see it (and Scripture backs this up) that we come to God. God comes to us. We cannot reach God, but God can reach us. However, God will not force this on us. What would be the point of all this if God forced us to love Him (which I know you've said He doesn't) but you said we're incapable of loving God until He makes us capable. It's almost like you're comparing people to computers and God is our programmer. Of course things influence our decisions but it still doesn't mean the freedom to make those decisions was forced. I see where you're separating the word "free" from the word "coerced," I understand that. We're going to get into things that are waaaay off topic and I'd love for us to discuss this further, I just don't have time right now. We're going to start getting into things like, where does the logical mind and Spirit separate, etc. I can see we're going to have some awesome discussions in the future though Ref. :)

JesusLoveA

27th February 2003, 08:12 PM

Oh yes and I am a christian, and no I consider it an HONOR to do those things. And yes I think that you would still be saved if you didn't do those things, but once you get saved, you have a want to do that. Atleast I do. I think that the more I can do for Jesus, and the more people I can tell about Him, the better. Jesus said for us to be as servant to Him. and I try my best to be.

Reformationist

27th February 2003, 08:33 PM

Today at 04:02 PM JesusServant said this in Post #93 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=680260#post680260)

Well, I don't see it (and Scripture backs this up) that we come to God. God comes to us. We cannot reach God, but God can reach us. However, God will not force this on us. What would be the point of all this if God forced us to love Him (which I know you've said He doesn't) but you said we're incapable of loving God until He makes us capable. It's almost like you're comparing people to computers and God is our programmer.

The thing, I think, that's confusing me about your position is that you're saying exactly what I am at one point, "we don't come to God, He comes to us, we cannot reach God, God reaches us" but then you seem to disagree that "we are incapable of loving God until He makes us capable."  Either we are capable of loving God in our fallen state, despite the overwhelming evidence that fallen man does not love God, and therefore we can "come to Him," or, we are incapable of loving God in our fallen state and therefore He must come to us and make us capable of loving Him.  Simply, either He makes it happen or we do.  He and us are the only two parties involved.  It can't be another way.  And, we can't say "man can't come to God but he is able to love God without God making him capable of loving God."  It just doesn't make any sense.  Either we were fallen and depraved and helpless to change that or we were, as is the Catholic opinion, merely wounded but still maintain some risidual ability to acknowledge God as Lord even in our fallen state.

Of course things influence our decisions but it still doesn't mean the freedom to make those decisions was forced.

I think you acknowledged that I'm not saying this but let me reiterate that a decision not being "forced" does not necessarily make it "freely made."  If we look at the decisions we make everyday and say they are freely made then where, as you asked, does it end?  Can fallen man freely make the choice to turn his life around and acknowledge God as Lord or is there some impediment that must be overcome by God's sovereign interaction?  Does God save us because we make the right decision to live our lives according to His Word or do we decide to live our lives according to His Word because He saved us?  I think if we consider the biblical truth about the nature of fallen man and his motives for everything he does the concept of fallen man "freely" coming to God is anti-biblical.  Fallen man must be brought back to life (saved) before he can make the righteous decision to live a godly life.

I can see we're going to have some awesome discussions in the future though Ref. :)

Lookin' forward to it bro.

God bless

Reformationist

27th February 2003, 08:35 PM

Today at 04:12 PM JesusLoveA said this in Post #94 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=680279#post680279)

Oh yes and I am a christian, and no I consider it an HONOR to do those things. And yes I think that you would still be saved if you didn't do those things, but once you get saved, you have a want to do that. Atleast I do. I think that the more I can do for Jesus, and the more people I can tell about Him, the better. Jesus said for us to be as servant to Him. and I try my best to be.

Hey JLA, is this in response to something I posted?

JesusServant

28th February 2003, 03:29 PM

Yesterday at 06:33 PM Reformationist said this in Post #95 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=680313#post680313)

The thing, I think, that's confusing me about your position is that you're saying exactly what I am at one point, "we don't come to God, He comes to us, we cannot reach God, God reaches us" but then you seem to disagree that "we are incapable of loving God until He makes us capable."  Either we are capable of loving God in our fallen state, despite the overwhelming evidence that fallen man does not love God, and therefore we can "come to Him," or, we are incapable of loving God in our fallen state and therefore He must come to us and make us capable of loving Him.  Simply, either He makes it happen or we do.  He and us are the only two parties involved.  It can't be another way.  And, we can't say "man can't come to God but he is able to love God without God making him capable of loving God."  It just doesn't make any sense.  Either we were fallen and depraved and helpless to change that or we were, as is the Catholic opinion, merely wounded but still maintain some risidual ability to acknowledge God as Lord even in our fallen state.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough since I had to rush through that post.  I look at it slightly differently I guess.  We are not capable of loving anything at all.  God gives us that ability regardless of the subject of our love being Him or a flower or our dog.  No one is special by loving God, because God gave them that ability to love in the first place.  We love God only because He first gave us that ability and no matter how bad things look in the world we know that all things work together for the good of those who love Him.  Do I love Him to get good things?  I'd be lying if I said no, but not the "good things" as some people see it.  I nkow you understand what I mean.  God gives everyone the ability to love.

I think you acknowledged that I'm not saying this but let me reiterate that a decision not being "forced" does not necessarily make it "freely made."  If we look at the decisions we make everyday and say they are freely made then where, as you asked, does it end?  Can fallen man freely make the choice to turn his life around and acknowledge God as Lord or is there some impediment that must be overcome by God's sovereign interaction?  Does God save us because we make the right decision to live our lives according to His Word or do we decide to live our lives according to His Word because He saved us?  I think if we consider the biblical truth about the nature of fallen man and his motives for everything he does the concept of fallen man "freely" coming to God is anti-biblical.  Fallen man must be brought back to life (saved) before he can make the righteous decision to live a godly life.

I fall in the "we try to live by His Word" because He saved us category.  That's what I can't get through to Chelsi or many other Catholics I've debated this with.  It's like your earthly father.  You love him and he loves you.  You know he won't reject you completely when you make mistakes or bad decisions but at the same time you do NOT want to disappoint him because he loves you and you love him.

Then there's always the parables:

(paraphrased) no bad fruit can come from a good tree and no good fruit can come from a bad tree (this is a toughy for non-believers).

(paraphrased) anyone who says he loves God and does not love his brother is a liar and the truth is not in him, for those who do not love what they have seen cannot love what they have not seen.

Boy oh boy are these two parables helpful in life and discernment :)

Reformationist

28th February 2003, 04:53 PM

Today at 11:29 AM JesusServant said this in Post #97 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=681981#post681981)

We are not capable of loving anything at all.  God gives us that ability regardless of the subject of our love being Him or a flower or our dog.  No one is special by loving God, because God gave them that ability to love in the first place.  We love God only because He first gave us that ability and no matter how bad things look in the world we know that all things work together for the good of those who love Him.  Do I love Him to get good things?  I'd be lying if I said no, but not the "good things" as some people see it.  I nkow you understand what I mean.  God gives everyone the ability to love.

Well, first off, I don't believe God loves everyone, at least not in the biblical sense.  Verses like 1 John 4:19 are regularly, IMO, taken out of context to support the idea that God loves everyone.  I won't even begin to go into detail about John 3:16.  I will just say that I think that most mainstream Christians try to make this mean something that it doesn't because they have a really hard time reconciling their own preconceived notions about the characteristics of God with the idea that God might very well not love everyone.  Anyway, I do not believe that God gives everyone the ability to love.  I will say that God's grace does rain, to some extent, on the just and the unjust.  About the closest example I could give of an unregenerate person biblically loving someone else is probably a parent's feelings toward their children.  I know that this opinion will not be well received but I do not believe unsaved people can truly love, at least not in the biblical sense.  The reason for that is that biblical love means doing the best for the recipient of your love with no regard for yourself.  Now, I can concede that there are quite a few unsaved people with decent morals.  The problem is that they don't do things with a godly motive.  For instance, an unsaved parent might very well spank their child when they are rebellious, which is a biblical way of dealing with rebellion.  While it might be the right response, it is not done for a godly reason and is, therefore, sinful.  If our motivation is not based on our love for God, which is always the case for the unregenerate, then no matter what we do is sinful.  As hard as this might be to grasp it is the biblical truth.  If an unsaved person were to save someone's life, while it very well might be appreciated and a nice thing to do, it wasn't motivated by a desire to love another as we love ourself.  Therefore, in a biblical sense, it's sinful.  I know at this point in reading someone is going to be wracking their brain to come up with examples of people they know that are unsaved that truly do things for selfless reasons.  I encourage you to save you breath.  It's biblically unfounded and therefore untrue.  The Bible clearly says that unregenerate man is unrighteous and so everything they do is unrighteously motivated and therefore sinful, regardless of it's outward appearance.  Even actions that outwardly appear godly and holy and reverent but are not motivated by a love for God are spoken of in the Bible as being sinful and of no benefit. 

I fall in the "we try to live by His Word" because He saved us category.  That's what I can't get through to Chelsi or many other Catholics I've debated this with.  It's like your earthly father.  You love him and he loves you.  You know he won't reject you completely when you make mistakes or bad decisions but at the same time you do NOT want to disappoint him because he loves you and you love him.

I agree completely.  It's the new nature of regenerate man/woman.  God does not just pay for our sins and then leave us in the same fallen state to "work out our salvation."  He gives us a new nature.  Granted, He leaves the old nature as part of us and the struggle that results between this old nature and our new nature helps us grow in godliness, but God definitely adds something to our make up.  That "something" is a new desire, a new motivation.  We are now motivated by Christ's love for us.  And God, in His sovereignty, is conforming us to the image of that love.

(paraphrased) no bad fruit can come from a good tree and no good fruit can come from a bad tree (this is a toughy for non-believers).

I'd say this is a toughy for most Christians as well and it raises the question of how exactly people come to the conclusion that an unsaved person (bad tree) can bear the good fruit of repentence and faith unto salvation.

God bless my friend,

Don

SUNSTONE

2nd March 2003, 03:51 PM

What is the will of God?

JesusLoveA

2nd March 2003, 05:31 PM

 

26th February 2003 at 10:15 PM Reformationist said this in Post #85 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=677884#post677884)

Let me see if I understand what you're saying.  I have to "ask God into my heart to stay," "tell Him I'm a sinner," "tell Him that I believe He died on the cross to wash away my sins," "ask Him to make me a new creation," "make sacrifices," and "change my life," did I get it all?  Wow!  You sure do think you have to do a lot to be saved.  That doesn't sound like being saved.  That sounds a whole lot like you earned it.  What exactly was it that the death of Jesus did for you?  It seems like you're saying His death is useless if you don't do all this other stuff.  How exactly do you come to the conclusion that salvation is a gift of God's grace (I'm assuming you believe this because you are Christian) if it's based on the merits of all this stuff you "have to do to be saved?"  It's sounds more like the wages for doing all the right things rather than unmerited favor, which is what grace is.

God bless

This is what I was responding to..Sorry for not making myself clear.

Good Day,

JesusLoveA