Alcohol

[Talmid HaYarok]

I probably should try to post as tired as I am right now....

Anyways, I appear to be a stubborn (or curious?) fool.

What are the beliefs of others who attend Messianic services regarding the use of Alcohol in services? I've noticed a lot of difference of opinion on this issue in different congregations. Some consider it essential to serve Wine, some refuse to serve it, and others offer the choice of either.

I don't have a problem with other people drinking Wine, but personally I am against consuming alcohol and won't touch even a drop.

So what are your opinions on the matter?

[Pray4Isrel]

The subject of alcohol has always been an interesting topic to me.
I have no scriptural reason to believe that alcohol consumption is a sin unless it leads to drunkenness.
I have no problem with the use of alcohol for services.

[Talmid HaYarok]

I just have a problem in services where there isn't the option not to drink Alcohol for communion.

Come on, I would think that Messianic Jews based in the Nazarene tradition would understand that more. Its just one of my personal gripes among Messianics Congregations and Gentile Churches.

Most Messianic congregations I've been to use both and you have the option, there are still a fair number that serve only one.

[chelcb]

For what it's worth P4I, that's what the Catholics believe as well.

Paul says that wine is good for the digestion, just not good to get drunk off of.

[Pray4Isrel]

Sure, Talmud, I definitely think there should be an option, but my personal stance is that I see no problem with alcohol being used.

I have a friend who took the Nazarite vow... his parents actually raised him up in complete adherence to the vow. No alcohol, no cutting the hair until I believe it's age 23, etc. If you take a vow, then I do not think you should consume alcohol as adherence to your vow. However, those that are not under that vow are not obligated either way as far as alcohol consupmtion goes.

[NOTso angry-amy]

if you arent using alcohol as a substitute for dealing with oyur problems, or as a substitute for your relationship with y'shua, then what is the problem.

my congregation uses juice because there is always a question of whether you have parishoners who have alcoholism. the bible clearly says not to be a stumbling block for your brothers.

[Pray4Isrel]

Well said, Amy.

Not being a stumbling block is very important in all aspects. I would hope there would be an option for those that feel it to be a stumbling block and, at the same time, those that feel at liberty to have alcohol.

To me it's no biggie.
It's the symbolism that's important.

[Ruhama]

The Nazarite tradition and the Nazarene tradition are completely different and unrelated things.

Where you have Jews, you're most definitely expected to have wine, or it's just not proper! I understand and agree with your complaint, Talmid, but at the same time, Messianic Judaism probably is the last place I would expect to see substitutes for wine offered.

If you're thinking of the verse (Matthew, is it?) where it says "and so he shall be called a nazarite" - well... it's possible, but I would tend expect people to interpret that as largely symbolic and not make a big deal out of it.  A lot of critics say the author was confusing references when he wrote it.

Wine was part of the last supper seder in which Jesus commanded his followers to drink it ever after in remembrance of him.  So if you interpret "pri hagefen" as wine, as it normally is in Judaism, and take Jesus's command as a mitzvah one should expect to see Jews drinking wine only in strict obedience to that command. 
I'm taking this to an extreme of course, but it makes sense to me.

[Pray4Isrel]

I agree, Ruhama with your explanation.


on a side not,
I am familiar with the Nazarite but not Nazarene I guess...

[Ruhama]

[edit] Nazarene just means "from Nazareth" or "follower of the guy from Nazareth" (i.e. Christian)

@ Talmid - continuation - I agree that there should be sensitivity for those like yourself who have chosen to abstain. I think people are too often geared for the masses and forget about the one or two who have taken special vows. I think the Gentile churches are basically of the same ilk, just they offer substitutes because they are more attuned to the large numbers of conservative people who, for example, don't want their children drinking alcohol until they're of legal age. In the Jewish community that's much less of an issue. And so people like you slip through the cracks. :(

[Pray4Isrel]

I myself am not a Nazarite, but a close friend of mine was. It was very difficult for people to understand him but you could see how God has blessed him in a unique way.
I am, I guess you could say, on thie fence in this particular issue: I have nothing against it if it is within guidelines.

[MissytheButterfly]

There is no logical reason why wine should not be used unless someone reaction to it that would harm them. Many Jews advocate the use of wine because that is what was originally used.

Some people believe drinking alchol is a sin, but I will point to the verse in the KJV bible that says this:
I Timothy 5:23 23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Some would say this refers to grape juice but I offer this case with other well read people: Grape juice offers no properties that help the stomach. It's common in the medical field to know that the consumption of wine in small installments does in fact "soothe" the stomach and keeps the heart strong. Alcohol is a blood thinner which in some physical cases can be beneficial.. grape juice does not thin blood.

Missy

[Pray4Isrel]

Yes I agree that the wine the Bible refers to is actual wine, not juice.

[dignitized]

THANK GOD! :) I hate when people try to claim The Lord used grape Juice.

[MissytheButterfly]

Today at 04:31 PM Talmid HaYarok said this in Post #3 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=658488#post658488)

I just have a problem in services where there isn't the option not to drink Alcohol for communion.

Come on, I would think that Messianic Jews based in the Nazarene tradition would understand that more. Its just one of my personal gripes among Messianics Congregations and Gentile Churches.

Most Messianic congregations I've been to use both and you have the option, there are still a fair number that serve only one.




Talmid, I have heard many Messianic say they believe that Messianic Judiasm comes from Nazarene tradition but let me point this information out to others that may not be privy to it:

Nazarites took a vow of these things:
(1) abstinence from wine and strong drink which includes vinegar, and grapes moist and dried, (2) refraining from cutting the hair off the head during the whole period of the continuance of the vow, and (3) the avoidance of contact with the dead. When the period of the continuance of the vow came to an end, the Nazarite had to present himself at the door of the sanctuary with (1) a he
lamb of the first year for a burnt-offering, (2) a ewe lamb of the first year
for a sin-offering, and (3) a ram for a peace-offering. After these sacrifices
were offered by the priest, the Nazarite cut off his hair at the door and threw
it into the fire under the peace-offering. ( Source: Websters Unabridged Encyclopedic Dictionary).


It is also important to note that just because someone is a resident of Nazareth didn't mean they were automatically to become Nazarite priests. One took a vow to become a Nazarite priest unlike Levitical priests that didn't have a choice in the matter since they who were born into the 'Tribe of Levi' were "set apart" by birth for the express purpose of serving as sacramental priests.

Lastly, I would like to point out that all Messianic do not believe that Messianic belief is rooted from Nazarites but more from the extension of Tanach (Old Testament) believing Jews that accepted Yeshua (Jesus) as the Messiah. Many Messianics consider themselves, "completed Jews" as in they have already been saved and see the light of Yeshua that many Orthodox or traditional Jews are currently blinded to.

 

Shalom,

Missy

[Pray4Isrel]

Today at 04:54 PM Br. Max said this in Post #14 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=659151#post659151)

THANK GOD! :) I hate when people try to claim The Lord used grape Juice.

 
LOL  :D 



 

[MissytheButterfly]

LOL... I don't know if I hate it.. but I will say it's pointless to say he (Yeshua) used grape juice, when the bible says otherwise.. LOL..

Missy

[Pray4Isrel]

LOL :)
On a side note, you know what was a great place to visit in Israel? The speculated site in Cana where Jesus performed His first miracle: Turning water into wine. How amazing it must have been to be there at the time Jesus performed this miracle for the wedding feast. I should try to scan a pic...

Did you visit there, Talmid?

[MissytheButterfly]

Now this is what would be REAL funny... if we went to the site in Cana where Yeshua did his first miracle only to find old cups of grape juice instead of wine.. LOL!

Missy

[Pray4Isrel]

LOL!!!
Welch's just may be the original after all!!!
:D

[dignitized]

:( oy vey

lol

[MissytheButterfly]

Yesterday at 10:36 PM Pray4Isrel said this in Post #20 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=659228#post659228)

LOL!!!
Welch's just may be the original after all!!!
:D




That stuff is pretty strong.. LOL!!!!!!!!

;) ;)

Missy

[Talmid HaYarok]

Heh, sorry about the confusion between Nazarenes and Nazarene vows.  :P

Well the big issue would be that Wine is a problem for many people, while non-fermented drinks are not. Alcoholism seems to be a common problem along many Jews I know as well and the fact that they can sometimes excuse it in the name of religious celebration does not help.

Furthermore there are a lot of people like me who have chosen to totally abstain from alcohol. I don't like that a church should say that we have to abandon that in order to partake in communion. The importance of passover and the last supper has nothing to do with the contents of passover cup.

Peace.

[dignitized]

??? you would deviate from what the Lord did for the human sensibilities? The alcohol content in Alter wine is so low as to be almost no existent. You run the chance of consuming more alcohol by eating old fruit than you do by drinking alter wine MIXED with water as in the Eucharist.

[MissytheButterfly]

Today at 04:21 PM Br. Max said this in Post #24 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=662654#post662654)

??? you would deviate from what the Lord did for the human sensibilities? The alcohol content in Alter wine is so low as to be almost no existent. You run the chance of consuming more alcohol by eating old fruit than you do by drinking alter wine MIXED with water as in the Eucharist.



Br.Max, um Messsianics and Jews do not mix their wine with anything. It's pure wine.. and it's kind of a lot of wine some people would say. It's a certain amount one is to drink at certain feasts but lots of people go over that.. LOL!  I think this is what Talmid is trying to convey.

And hey, I thought you said you were a Christian of Jewish decent.. so why don't you know that ?

Blessings,

Missy


 

[Talmid HaYarok]

I don't think the Lord is so legalistic as to be concerned whether I'm drinking wine, grape juice, water, or root beer. When you start focusing on having alcohol you've already lost the point of the whole sacrament.

My Dad can't have wine because of his Diabetes, do you think the Lord is upset with him for it?

Also, many people are alcoholics who abstain totally because even a small amount can cause them to develop a craving again. Some people are alcoholics and this is just one more excuse for them to get drunk in the name of a holiday or sacrament.

Some people take vows not to drink (such as the biblical Nazirite vows proscribed by the Lord), should they be forced to break that vow just for a tradition? its also the same as not causing your brother to stumble by eating meat in front of him. Why would we insist in causing others to stumble because the issue isn't meat? I don't think Paul meant don't cause your brother to stumble over meat.

Still there are others like me who have inherited genetic alcoholism and I've no wish to ever start drinking. I've also seen way to up close and personal in my life the dangers of drunkeness and I've no desire to consume even the least fermented fruit.

I know Yeshua won't condemn me for not drinking or expel me from his holy communion, why should the church?

[MissytheButterfly]

Talmid.. I don't know how familiar you are with Orthodox Jewish practices but it is VERY acceptable for a person to not consume wine if he is ill or drinking will be detrimental to his health. There are other exceptions as well..

There is a book called Idiots Guide to Judiasm written by a VERY well noted author.. A Rabbi Benjamin Blech. And he discusses that matter in there. Orthodox Judiasm speaks out very strongly against lack of self control with the consumption of alcohol.. well with anything really but here we are talking about alchohol..

Also pregnant women can refrain from wine as well if they choose.

So you wouldn't be expelled from a Messianic synaguoge for it.. they would just wonder why mostly you don't drink wine that's all. And you definitely wouldn't be booted by most Jewish synaguoges but believe me they would want to know why you aren't drinking.. LOL!  (Of course we do have the exceptions but that in any religion)
Shalom,
Missy

[Talmid HaYarok]

Heh heh, I wasn't referring to Messianic congregations for the most part. Its true that among Jews you're always excused if you choose not to drink. I just wish more would choose not to drink and that a few congregations wouldn't make it the only option during seder/communion.

Yeah, while living in Israel I had to explain on a regular basis why I don't drink alcohol.  :)

Peace

[MissytheButterfly]

LOL, I bet you did! Hee hee..

I do have to agree that more congregations should offer an alternative, I think maybe water should be used as an option. Perhaps have regular communion but have water served as well so one can opt to drink water instead of wine. Especially for those that may be sick or alcoholics that still want to participate..

Wow you lived in Israel.. that's wonderful. I would love to visit one day. I have only seen some pictures but they were beautiful and rustic. I sure would like to actually see Israel up close..

Shalom,
Missy

[Pray4Isrel]

I personally vote on Root Beer, Talmid ;)

Hey Missy, join us in the Aliyah thread where we have started to discuss our experiences in Israel...
I started a fellowship thread so we can all chat... I think it would be great for all of us to get to know each other as CF friends!

Ah, Israel... I miss it. Hopefully will go back soon. Will be in China this summer though so maybe next year.

[MissytheButterfly]

Oh wonderful! I will certainly join you.. I can just drool over all of you that have visited and wish..wish hard.. LOL!

I think our next big trip is Hawaii but it won't be for a while.. I have to have the baby first so we are staying close to home for now..

Missy

[dignitized]

Today at 12:23 PM MissytheButterfly said this in Post #25 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=662746#post662746)

Br.Max, um Messsianics and Jews do not mix their wine with anything. It's pure wine.. and it's kind of a lot of wine some people would say. It's a certain amount one is to drink at certain feasts but lots of people go over that.. LOL!  I think this is what Talmid is trying to convey.

And hey, I thought you said you were a Christian of Jewish decent.. so why don't you know that ?

Blessings,

Missy


 

Um . . . properly celebrated, the Eucharistic cup is water mixed with wine for many reasons.

1 blood and water flowed from the side of Christ

2 the mingling of Christ's divinity with our humanity to save us from our sins

3 the redemptive properties of both . . . .

 

In the early church there was along side the celebration of the Eucharist the Agape feast at which many people were often drunk (something Paul comments on in the Epistles) for this reason the church shed that aspect of worship to end opportunities for such occurrences.

[MissytheButterfly]

Yesterday at 10:01 PM Br. Max said this in Post #32 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=663247#post663247)

Um . . . properly celebrated, the Eucharistic cup is water mixed with wine for many reasons.

1 blood and water flowed from the side of Christ

2 the mingling of Christ's divinity with our humanity to save us from our sins

3 the redemptive properties of both . . . .

 

In the early church there was along side the celebration of the Eucharist the Agape feast at which many people were often drunk (something Paul comments on in the Epistles) for this reason the church shed that aspect of worship to end opportunities for such occurrences.



 

Um..yeah..in a Catholic church or some Protestant churches. We are talking about Jews here and Messianics.. totally different.. and well considering the Jews are the people God gave his word to, I think I'll stick with them.. hee hee..

But your free to do as you please. I was just explaining to you that Jews and Messianics do not dilute their wine, no reason to. And I couldn't understand how you, a Jew by decent, wouldn't know that...

Shalom,

Missy

[keng]

In 1979 I was a raving alcoholic, I was at the point that nearly everytime I had a drink I wound up drunk. I went to AA, but I also attended any church that was open. I was delivered from alcoholism and received the Holy Spirit in a Pentecostal church but became engrossed in Jewish aspects at the same time. In my early childhood I was Catholic, an uncle was a Priest and I knew real wine was used then. I became aware that real wine was used by many Jews as well as a result developed an odd testimony to my deliverance. A glass of wine on Shabat and certain Jewish festivals is a witness to my deliverance. The Lord has blessed me with 10 children during this time and many other miracles as well. When I used to drink beer it was to have a good time but it eventually lead to bitterness. Now when I have the cup of wine it is to recognize the joy in my life which continues to flow. Perhaps it is the intent that matters, I hope I am not rationalizing this matter. I know Jesus drank wine at the proper time but He is the Lord, I am just a follower. I know it is a touchy issue but to me it is like a fire that is dangerous, still it is so nice to set in front of the fire place once in a while.

I know some Catholics have beer busts before Lent or for any "good" reason which I have set aside and I hear it is okay for a Jew to get slightly drunk on Purim which would have been a good enough reason for me to do so were I still an alcoholic but Jesus has delivered me. I have considered just giving up the cup of wine but it is like I would be refusing a gift.

I hope this helps and that I have not confused the issue even farther.

[Talmid HaYarok]

For many Orthodox it is considered a duty to get as drunk as you can on Purim. :( As a Messianic I believe it is a sin to get drunk and that it is no sin to take a portion of the Nazirite vows to abstain from all alcohol.

Anyways there are many Orthodox or Russian Jews that have a severe drinking problem. I'm glad that in the congregations that I attend we can teach them that they can escape the depression of alcoholism and the troubles it causes. We can also teach them without not to escape from life but to embrace Yeshua better without that stumbling block during our communion.

Its good to see you Keng.

Shalom

[keng]

I cannot disagree. Yeshua is the focus. Anything that stands between us and Him will be removed. Shalom.

[Pray4Isrel]

Thank you so much for sharing that with us, Keng. Praise the Lord for deliverance!

Oh and by the way, you have a beautiful family!

[keng]

Well, I have prayed about it and slept on it and have a few thoughts. First, as an alcoholic I truly witnessed about Jesus in AA meetings in 1979 and 1980. Then when the Lord delivered me I wanted very much to tell my associates in AA they did not have to cling to a higher power like a lucky charm but at some point accept Jesus so they could be truly changed. There were those who had been going to AA for many years and seemed forever locked into what they were, not what God wants to make of them.

Still I need to focus on growing in the Lord where I am now and the need to fast and pray is much more prevailing in these times so I could make this sacrifice such that it will yield fruit for the Lord. Based on your urging I will sacrafice wine. It is not much I am giving up (very low quantity) but since it has become a habit I will have to rely on the Lord to accomplish it. Please pray that this sacrifice will indeed produce fruit for the Lord.

Thank you for the compliment, Sha ah lu Shalom Yerusa la im

[Talmid HaYarok]

http://www.aish.com/purimparty/purimpartydefault/Drink_Till_You....asp
<P class=ArticleText>A person should drink on Purim until the point where they can't tell the difference between "Blessed is Mordechai" and "Cursed is Haman. (Talmud - Megillah 7a; Code of Jewish Law 695:2)
<P class=ArticleText>Not that this is any less of a problem for Gentiles and their churches, but at Purim this time of year it is particularly problematic for Jews.
<P class=ArticleText>Its disgusting and sad to watch a person drink their life away. Its even worse when they're aided in the name of the Church. As Purim comes up remember that this is a holiday of deliverance from one's enemies and that one can also be delivered from alcohol and the enemy of drunkenness.
<P class=ArticleText>Shalom.

[Ruhama]

hmm, well said Talmid. Amen.

[Pray4Isrel]

I encourage you Keng and I am praying for you - I really mean it!
God Bless.

[keng]

Thanks, thought I would give you a progress report. I did not experience withdrawl but I did think about it and have a few minor aches and pains that my subconscious tried to tell me would be helped so I had to turn to the Holy Spirit, not for strength because I think I could make it through on my own but for confirmation that this is what I should do and I got it. Sorry about the long sentence, Toda Raba Yeshua, Shalom.