Pray 4 Isreal

[chelcb]

P4I,

I just found this article and I want to know if this is a accurate description of MJ?

If so I really get it now and I have some further questions if you don’t mind?

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/8ta/8ta062.html

Here’s a quote that helps me understand why if you accept Jesus as messiah you are not “christian”

"You can't say to the Jews, 'You're on the ash heap of history because you failed Jesus, and God has tossed you aside, making you of no significance. God is through with your people, but here's the gospel through Jesus Christ.' That's not a very effective way to win friends and influence people," he chuckles, adding, "You don't have to become a Western-style Christian to worship God in a legitimate fashion."

[Pray4Isrel]

What an exceptional article! I speak for myself about the article but I think it best represents Messianic Judaism in a way that sheds the most truth on the Messianic Faith. Thank you so much for posting this. I have marked it as a favorite. O applaud the history and the representation of MJ in that article.

Here's one of my favorite quotes from the article that explains the linguistics:

"Linguistically, the terms are equivalent," Rob Kirsch, a medical doctor and Messianic Jew, explains. "But in common thought, Christian means Gentile. Since I'm not a Gentile, I'd rather avoid a label that carries that connotation."

[chelcb]

Okay, so can I ask questions now?

[Pray4Isrel]

Of course! :)
(***P4I points to Chelcb in the classroom and says "your turn young lady"***)
:D

[chelcb]

Thank you P4I.

First question:

Can someone be a MJ with out being of Jewish desent? And are you more that just 35 years old? That's what it sounded like from the artical.

[Pray4Isrel]

Well to be a Messianic Jew, you must be of Jewish descent, but to be Messianic itself, you do not necessarily have to be Jewish... (is that thoroughly confusing, or what!)
If you are Jewish, you are born a Jew, but to practice the Messianic faith you do not have to be Jewish.
Just tell me if I need to expound :)

And, I am sorry, what are you asking about 35 years?

[chelcb]

Is that when the messianic faith was founded, in 1967?

[Talmid HaYarok]

LOL, it is certainly quite erroneous to say there were no Messianic jewish congregations before 1967. 350 also seems very low of a number for today as well. Not to make it sound huge, but it just isn't that quite that small.

The author of the article who isn't Messianic Jewish is probably equating it with one movement or organization. Certainly there were no Messianic Jewish organizations more than a few decades ago. Its also true that since the holocaust and the formation of Israel there had been an explosive growth in Messianic Judaism.

Not to slander CJ today, but it is a very Protestant magazine and they can't be expected to get the facts about other groups (particularly groups like Messianic Jews who are typically dismissed without an attempt to understand) entirely accurate.

I'll look up some decent publishing companies that have histories of Messianic Jews sometime when I'm slightly less tired. If you were in Jerusalem I'd just tell you a couple of bookstores to go to, but its not so easy anywhere else.

Shalom

[Talmid HaYarok]

Okay, I finished reading the article now that I'm awake and in more detail now.  :)

It contradicts itself that Messianic Judaism has only been around since 1967. You'll notice at the end of the article it talks a lot about congregations from the 19th century and early 20th century. I don't know what he is referring to or how he came up with that 1967 number.

Thanks for the questions Chelcb

[Pray4Isrel]

Other than minor things, I think the article was very well written considering that the writer is not Messianic. It gives me hope that people are finally showing an interest and are researching MJ instead of excluding it.

I have no idea about the 1967 deal though!

[chelcb]

Today at 10:14 AM Talmid HaYarok said this in Post #9 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=658457#post658457)

Okay, I finished reading the article now that I'm awake and in more detail now.  :)

It contradicts itself that Messianic Judaism has only been around since 1967. You'll notice at the end of the article it talks a lot about congregations from the 19th century and early 20th century. I don't know what he is referring to or how he came up with that 1967 number.

Thanks for the questions Chelcb




I think he was saying that in America it was founded or sought out by Jews around 1967.

[chelcb]

Okay, so now that we have that out the way, there were Jews that accecpted Jesus since the beginning, they just did not accecpt what the "Christian" movment was all about?

The Jews that believed in Jesus did not believe that one had to reject orthodoxed Jewadism in oder to believe?

[Talmid HaYarok]

What is Orthodox Judaism today didn't come about until 100 years after Messianic Judaism. Orthodox Judaism was founded by Rabbi Akiba in the early 2nd century and was based off of Pharisaic Judaism.

What they didn't stop doing is being biblical Torah Jews. Early Messianics kept the biblical laws as well as possible, just not the oral traditions of the rabbis or priests.

Back in the early church when Jews were still in charge it was decided (after lengthy debate) that Gentiles didn't have to convert to Judaism in order to follow Yeshua. As the Gentile church fathers took control in the centuries to follow however it seemed the reverse wasn't true. Many Gentile Christians in an act of anti-semitism declared that the original Jewish believers had to stop being Jewish in order to follow the Messiah.

I'm glad that things seem to be starting to turn around now after such a long time. (I will note that Ethiopia never had this problem to turn around from though, Christian-Jewish relations in Ethiopia are relatively superb) The Gentile - Jewish division was the first one to occur in the church and in order to work towards unity and reconciliation then we need to start with that and work together. It sure makes it an exciting time to live in that all this is happening now.

[chelcb]

So am I understanding this right? "christianity" was basically established for the gentiles that came to believe in God through Jesus?

[Talmid HaYarok]

Well that depends on what you call "Christianity". The original Jewish followers of Yeshua were called Nazarenes and were referred to as the Nazarene sect of Judaism.

However, Nazarene Judaism was different from all the other sects of Judaism in that they allowed Gentiles to join them without becoming Proslytes (converts to Judaism and part of the Mosaic covenant). These gentile believers became known by the Romans as "Christians".

However, both groups originally worshipped together where they shared the same language. Living different lifestyles (the Jews following Jewish laws, the Gentiles not), but worshipping together. I would describe it as numerous people groups, brought together in two religions, under one Faith.

Others would describe it differently and I wouldn't necessarily disagree with them either. :D One has to watch out for those semantics.

[chelcb]

That is very interesting.

What I was meaning is that before Jesus the gentiles really did not believe in the Jewish God, correct? And it was through accecpting Jesus that they came to know the Jewish God and wanted to serve him through Jesus.

[Pray4Isrel]

That is correct, Chelcb.
Very well said.

[chelcb]

Can anyone tell me about the messianic spirituality?

[Pray4Isrel]

Sure.
What exactly would you like to know?

[chelcb]

Well, as you know Catholic spirituality is focused on the crucified lord and we are reverent in our mass, what is it like to attend a messianic service, do you view 'worship' as sacrifice?

[MissytheButterfly]

Today at 12:41 AM Pray4Isrel said this in Post #2 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=657205#post657205)

Here's one of my favorite quotes from the article that explains the linguistics:

"Linguistically, the terms are equivalent," Rob Kirsch, a medical doctor and Messianic Jew, explains. "But in common thought, Christian means Gentile. Since I'm not a Gentile, I'd rather avoid a label that carries that connotation."




 

Well I would like to comment on it since I am a Gentile but also of the Messianic faith. Gentile is not limited to the definiton Christian but has been used in this context..it's more appropriate definition is "non-Jew" or for a more advanced definition:

Gentile

Belonging to the nations at large, as distinguished from the Jews; ethnic; of pagan or heathen people.


 Source:Websters Revised Unabridged Dictionary.

Why ? Because a Gentile (non-Jew) does not neccesarily have to be a Christian. An atheist or agnostic cnan be non-Christian and still be a Gentile. IE: IF I was from Irish decent and a non-Christian, I would still be a Gentile (non-Jew).  

Missy

[Ruhama]

From what I've seen of Messianic congregations, it is very much the same as the spirituality one sees in Gentile churches, i.e., you are there to worship and honor God, commune with him, bring a "sacrifice of praise," and be ministered to by God and studying his word. The difference that I see is that instead of a Catholic or other liturgy, you have a lot of Psalms and traditional Jewish songs and liturgy.  I'd say right now a lot of congregations look kinda like you fused protestant and jewish styles to come up with a "messianic Jewish" style.  Not all, but many.  Due, probably, to the fact that there are a lot of protestants who like to mix with MJ congregations, and that a lot of MJs are converts from rabbinic Judaism.

Btw on the "Christian" name being for the Gentiles - I'd probably add that some of those called by that name were Jewish as well. It was merely a matter of language. In Hebrew believers were "Nazarenes" (followers of the guy from Nazareth), in Greek they were called "Christians" (followers of the anointed one). "Meshikhim" (Messianic in English) means the same thing: followers of the anointed one.
So really the idea that only Gentiles are "Christians" is a product of tradition, nothing more, and it is linguistically erronious to say they mean different things.

[Pray4Isrel]

Chelcb,
Worship is a very important part of Messianic services. The use of Davidic dancing is also incorporated. It is very beautiful to observe or participate in a Messianic service and see the style of worship that offers a fragrant aroma up to God as a sacrifice of praise.

[MissytheButterfly]

Today at 08:16 PM chelcb said this in Post #20 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=658927#post658927)

Well, as you know Catholic spirituality is focused on the crucified lord and we are reverent in our mass, what is it like to attend a messianic service, do you view 'worship' as sacrifice?





Chelcb, it varies for some Messianic congregations. In some Messianic congregations the service is closely related to that of a Orthodox Jewish service, others are even more liberal and advocate dance, speaking in tongues, etc.

Here is what might happen at a Messianic Congregation:

<DL>www.lawus.com/messianic/sabbath.html (http://www.lawus.com/messianic/sabbath.html)</DL>Then you have this description:

Shabbat Service, Friday @ 8 pm

The&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Friday&nbsp;&nbsp; service&nbsp;&nbsp; include&nbsp; a&nbsp; unique&nbsp; blend&nbsp;&nbsp; of&nbsp;
contemporary&nbsp;&nbsp; Messianic&nbsp; Praise and&nbsp; Worship with
traditional&nbsp; Jewish&nbsp;&nbsp; prayer.&nbsp;&nbsp; Our&nbsp; own&nbsp; Mount&nbsp; Sinai
musicians'&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; provide&nbsp;&nbsp; a&nbsp;&nbsp; mix&nbsp;&nbsp; of&nbsp;&nbsp; songs&nbsp;&nbsp; including&nbsp;
traditional&nbsp; Jewish,&nbsp; Messianic, and&nbsp; original&nbsp;&nbsp; songs.&nbsp;
We&nbsp; also&nbsp;&nbsp; encourage&nbsp; Davidic&nbsp; dancing, and include
traditional&nbsp; worship from&nbsp; the&nbsp;&nbsp; Siddur.&nbsp; Every service
includes&nbsp; a reading&nbsp; from&nbsp; the&nbsp; Torah, and a teaching
which is meaningful, practical, &amp; dynamic. Children's
program is included in the classroom.
&nbsp;Source: Mount Sinai Messianic Synogogue

&nbsp;

It varies though according to how a Messianic Rabbi might run his synaguoge.. some are more liberal than others. Some even say a Messianic service might resemble that of a Assembly of God service but with a Jewish twist.. LOL.

&nbsp;

Missy

&nbsp;

[chelcb]

Thanks to all who are helping me understand this faith, I literally had no idea what it was about. I am enjoying learning, which leads me to...(if I start getting on anyone nerves, let me know:>)

Do you have any kind of sacramental life?

[MissytheButterfly]

What do you mean sacramental life ? Like the priesthood or becoming a nun ?

Missy

[chelcb]

Do you baptise or confirm, stuff like that.

[MissytheButterfly]

Yes, Baptism takes place, it is done by immersion and is only done to believers in the name of Yeshua (Jesus), infants are not baptized and pouring and sprinkling is not done either. (Acts 2:38 is a reference for that)

Confirmation in the way that Catholics do isn't done. There is a practice among some Messianics called Confirmation. It&nbsp;is a sort of second Baptism, with oil, instead of water. Oil is the symbolic equivalent of fire, as its fuel.&nbsp;Confirmation actually corresponds to the Baptism of Fire of the Holy Spirit.

Some Messianics (not all) do observe seven sacraments.. (but let me note that most of these are not reguarded or done in the same way the Christian churches perform their version of the sacraments)
These are the 7 sacraments that Messianics that do observe sacraments mainly recognize: but again rememeber they are not reguarded in the same way or even done in the same way Catholics practice them:

1. Baptism
2. Confirmation
3. Matrimony
4. Confession
5. Ordination
6. Extreme Unction
7. Communion.

Oh I noticed that you are Catholic.. I went to Catholic school for 10 yrs. I thought confirmation was wonderful. I, myself was never confirmed because I wasn't Catholic, but a lot of my school mates were and it was such a nice thing to see. A very beautiful ceremony. I can remember all the girls dressed so pretty in white and all the boys in their little suits.. fond memories of Catholic school.

I have to say though I never adopted the religion.. I enjoyed attending Catholic school very very much and learned a great deal from good Catholics that I will always cherish.

Oh if you would like information on how a Messianic would observe the sacraments I would be happy to elaborate.. just ask...

Shalom,

Missy

[chelcb]

Missy,

How would a messianic do confession?

[MissytheButterfly]

Chel, there is a Jewish practice called Teshuvah.

Teshuvah is a Hebrew word which means "returning". In the spiritual sense, teshuvah means returning to the Creator of the universe, who we call HaShem. It means turning away from the secular, from the worldly way of life and turning back to His way of life. Since He has given us a standard for our lives, returning to Him means returning to obedience to His standard, His teachings, His commands, His Torah. (Source: www.teshuvah.com (http://www.teshuvah.com) )

&nbsp;And don't take this the wrong way but something said among Jews is this: "Christians confess; Jews repent."

Teshuvah is:

1. Regret for the act committed (repentance);
2. Acceptance of responsibility for the act committed (repentance);
3. Repairing the damage caused by your act (restitution AND restoration);
4. Making a decision to not repeat the act (the return).


Teshuvah is a mental process which begins when&nbsp;one acknowledges one's wrong doings, feels sincere regret for what they have done, confesses their sins to the wronged party and finally makes amends and reparations for one's past actions.

The rabbis teach that the effectiveness of teshuvah is thus frequently a function of one's sense of distance from the sacred. The greater the distance, the greater the potential movement toward renewed connectedness. As one Jewish sage put it, "A rope that is cut and retied is doubly strong at the point it was severed."


"Confession goes as far as admitting wrong. Repentence, for it to be accepted , must be accompanied by a commitment to change. To coness without changing is to accept evil as unalterable behavior.

How do we know a person has truly repented, asks the Talmud. If a man has sinned sexually with a woman and confesses, that isn't good enough. Onlufe if he promises never to repeat his indescretion and then has a similar opportunity and refuses can we honestly say he is no longer the person he was before. That's when God forgives."&nbsp;&nbsp;(Source: paraphase of the words of Rabbi Benjamin Blech, a tenth generation Rabbi, author, lecturer, and associate professor of Talmud at Yeshiva University in NY)

Here is an example that someone gave me once that may help you understand:

"Let's say that I go around the neighborhood and tell everyone that your mother wears army boots. But...I lied and she really wears Manolo Blahniks. In order to do Teshuvah properly, I would then be required to apologize to your Mom...and then go to each person that I told the lie to and tell them that I lied.

It would not be enough to regret and take responsibility for my sin against your mother. I would also have the obligation to repair the damage that I had done. And then I would have to take care of this matter with G-d since lying is a sin..."


Shalom,

Missy

&nbsp;

[chelcb]

This is what has always attracted me to the Jews. Catholics do believe that repentance is key the same way the OT Jews repented but unfortunately our counter parts see it as works, when it’s not, it’s repenting.

Even if Jesus did die for sins and they are wiped out, one still has to be sorry and make mends. Right?? I think we agree with the Jewish people on this (and messianic).

1. Regret for the act committed (repentance);
2. Acceptance of responsibility for the act committed (repentance);
3. Repairing the damage caused by your act (restitution AND restoration);
4. Making a decision to not repeat the act (the return).


We do things to. The confession would not be valid, we would be committing sacrilege if we didn’t have these things. In fact this is basically what our “act of contrition” prayer says.

[MissytheButterfly]

Yes Chel, I am aware of the Catholic version of it. I suspect Jews just feel a little differently about Teshuvah.

Now if I remember is the "act of contrition" something like,
Oh my God, I am heartly sorry for having offended thee, and I detest all my sins because of thy just punishment... right ? (I know the rest but for time not typing it all. )

I could see a Jew and Messianic taking a slight issue with this because it seem like one is confessing for fear of punishment. Jews and Messianics repent not because of fear but out of mitzvah (command), not because Yeshua died or didn't die.

For instance Jewish Law insists that before Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement) , people don't rely on their prayers but make sure to approach every person they may have hurt by word or deed throughout the past year. Even the most bitter of enemies have no choice but to reconcile with eachother. There's no way they can be forgiven by God if they haven't made peace with their fellow man.

But I will say the Catholic way is a good way of atoning for one's wrongs, it's just not the Jewish way. And well to each his or her own.

Shalom,
Missy

[chelcb]

I could see a Jew and Messianic taking a slight issue with this because it seem like one is confessing for fear of punishment. Jews and Messianics repent not because of fear but out of mitzvah (command), not because Yeshua died or didn't die

&nbsp;

FYI... not&nbsp;a debate. That is not the case at all.

We have something called imperfect contrition which would be what you described and then we have perfect contrition and that is sorrow for offeneding an all good all loving God.

Both types of contrition remove the sin and grant Christ's forgiveness but only perfect contrition and sincere love for God and sorrow for hurting him can blot out not only the sin but the punishments due to the sin, aka time spent in purgatory for the sin.

The rest of the prayer follows...because I fear the lost of heaven and dread the pains of hell, BUT MOST OF ALL&nbsp;BECAUSE THEY OFFEND YOU, MY GOD WHO ARE ALL GOOD AND ALL&nbsp;DESERVING OF ALL MY LOVE.

Also pre vatican 11 days, the peneance was much different than it is today, sometimes if a person's sin was something the directly affected the community he or she would have been asked to stand outside the Church and apologize to each memeber of the community personal as they entered in.

[MissytheButterfly]

LOL Chel, just because I correct, make a comment about, or elaborate on an issue please don't automatically assume I am debating. Perhaps that's what some do here or what you are used to but I am telling you MYSELF in my own words, first hand, that is not my intention unless I state it..

I knew the rest of the prayer, as I stated I just wasn't typing it all. I remember many nice prayers from Catholic school. As a matter of fact I still say the Act of Contrition from time to time..

Again, I see what you are saying and that is fine. You asked me a question about Jewish belief and I gave you an answer. A lot of Jews and Messianics would hardly consider what Catholics do for confession the same as what they are commanded to do. I mean no disrespect, I am simply telling you the reality of what some Jews and Messianics believe. That thought can be taken or left by yourself...

Lastly, I think the Catholic way of confession and repentance as you describe is rather nice...

Missy

[isshinwhat]

What do Messianics believe on the state of the Dead after death, and do they pray the Quaddish?

God Bless,

Neal

[chelcb]

Missy,

LOL Chel, just because I correct, make a comment about, or elaborate on an issue please don't automatically assume I am debating. Perhaps that's what some do here or what you are used to but I am telling you MYSELF in my own words, first hand, that is not my intention unless I state it..

LOL, I wasn’t, I was only trying to re assure you that my intentions about learning are sincere and I am not trying to "slip" my views in.

I am simply telling you the reality of what some Jews and Messianics believe. That thought can be taken or left by yourself...

I hear what you are saying, but I just didn't want any lurker to get the wrong impression of how we see our confession. It would be unfortunate if someone reading misunderstood what you were meaning and&nbsp;thought that we felt we had no need to repent.

Lastly, I think the Catholic way of confession and repentance as you describe is rather nice...

Thanks, I always thought that about the Jewish practice as well.

[MissytheButterfly]

No problem Chel and God bless you!

Sheesh.. I feel like Dr. Laura here answering this question and that question..

Note to other Messianics: FEEL FREE TO ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS..please.. LOL! HELP!

Yikes,
Missy

[Talmid HaYarok]

LOL, but you're doing so well.

I've never been that big into theology stuff except that which matters to me personally. Now if you've got any historical questions about Messianic Judaism then I'm your man.&nbsp; :D

Besides, the moment I open my mouth about theology I'll find out it was only something I learned at one specific congregation and everybody else disagrees with me.&nbsp; :) or something like that. Sounds like a good excuse. :bow:

[MissytheButterfly]

Today at 06:12 PM isshinwhat said this in Post #35 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=667568#post667568)

What do Messianics believe on the state of the Dead after death, and do they pray the Quaddish?

God Bless,

Neal



Well Neal, Like I say with most things when answering a question about Messianics: it varies.. meaning some do and some don't.

&nbsp;There are Messianics and of course most Orthodox Jews recite the Kaddish&nbsp;to mourn the death of a loved one.

As far as the "state" of the Dead after death, traditional Jewish sources choose on purpose to remain silent on the the question of reincarnation. The general policy among Jews is not to dwell over much of those issue. Yet mystics and the Kabbalah do clearly accept the view that souls can return, not only once but several times.

Is this belief Jewish ? No, it's a belief found within Judiasm. One can accept it or reject it and still be a good Jew and/or Messianic believer. Jewish tradition believes that the recitation of the Kaddish serves as a source of blessing to both the mourner as well as the soul of the deceased. As the soul is being judged after death, the heavenly scales are greatly influenced by the fact that a descendant carries on religious tradition.

Traditional Judiasm refuses to fill in the details of the post-life experience. Jews and Messianics do accept the idea of heaven and hell albeit&nbsp;mostly in different ways for obvious reasons that I am sure you are familiar with on some level.

For traditional Jews it isn't believed that hell is eternal, hence the reason why the Kaddish is prayed for 11 months because it is believed among traditional Jews that the maxiumum time for anyone to have his or her soul "purified" in this place is 12 months. In traditional Judiasm the idea of hell is not believed to be a place of torture and burning with fire, but more like a time to be cleaned from sin before he can enter the "World to Come" or Messianic age, the spiritual world that a soul goes to after death. And it's usually believed that only the worst of all people who require the whole year for their purification.

For the most part&nbsp;Messianics&nbsp;adopt and believe that hell is eternal just as the Brit Chadasha states&nbsp;and they do not accept the notion that hell is a time of purification, but rather a lifetime when those that have not lived according to the will of God will be punished rightfully for all of eternity. Still at&nbsp;some Messianic funeral the Kaddish is prayed but for reasons slightly different than that of a traditional Jewish funeral but of course that varies depending on what a congregation observes and doesn't. Many Messianics also believe that once a person is dead, he is just that: dead, and&nbsp;his soul waits until judgement day to be&nbsp;either cast into hell, heaven, or the new earth. &nbsp;

NOTE: Other Messianics please comment on Neal's question..don't leave me out to drip dry.

&nbsp;

Shalom,

Missy




&nbsp;

[MissytheButterfly]

Today at 08:56 PM Talmid HaYarok said this in Post #38 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=667858#post667858)

LOL, but you're doing so well.

I've never been that big into theology stuff except that which matters to me personally. Now if you've got any historical questions about Messianic Judaism then I'm your man.&nbsp; :D

Besides, the moment I open my mouth about theology I'll find out it was only something I learned at one specific congregation and everybody else disagrees with me.&nbsp; :) or something like that. Sounds like a good excuse. :bow:



Oh Thanks a lot my fellow Messianic brother.. LOL! :(&nbsp; (Just kidding).

Talmid, still offer your explanation, it's nice to get a different perspective..

&nbsp;

And WHERE IS PRAY4ISRAEL ?? huh HUH ?&nbsp;

Pray4Israel.. :help:

[Talmid HaYarok]

Heh, I just PMed P4I to try and wake her up. She registers as being online....

Anyways, I don't pray the Kaddish. I don't pray for the dead, but rather just entrust them to the Lord's hands. Whatever their fate, they're beyond us.

As for hell I believe it to be something like the county jail, where the guilty go to await their day in "court". I don't worry about it because it is inconsequential in this life and I don't believe that anyone's beliefs about it will effect them one way or another. Its more important to just live this life well so that you never have to find out first hand what hell is!

Hell is like the south pole station; "Sounds awful but I have no intention of going there".

Peace.

[chelcb]

Today at 02:37 PM MissytheButterfly said this in Post #37 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=667826#post667826)

No problem Chel and God bless you!

Sheesh.. I feel like Dr. Laura here answering this question and that question..

Note to other Messianics: FEEL FREE TO ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS..please.. LOL! HELP!

Yikes,
Missy




I love Dr. Laura.

[chelcb]

Today at 02:56 PM Talmid HaYarok said this in Post #38 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=667858#post667858)

LOL, but you're doing so well.

I've never been that big into theology stuff except that which matters to me personally. Now if you've got any historical questions about Messianic Judaism then I'm your man.&nbsp; :D

Besides, the moment I open my mouth about theology I'll find out it was only something I learned at one specific congregation and everybody else disagrees with me.&nbsp; :) or something like that. Sounds like a good excuse. :bow:



How does the different Messianic congregations settle disputes? And how do they vary in their theology? Is there any kind of governing body that helps keep things in check?

[MissytheButterfly]

Yesterday at 10:03 PM Talmid HaYarok said this in Post #41 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=667985#post667985)

Heh, I just PMed P4I to try and wake her up. She registers as being online....

Anyways, I don't pray the Kaddish. I don't pray for the dead, but rather just entrust them to the Lord's hands. Whatever their fate, they're beyond us.

As for hell I believe it to be something like the county jail, where the guilty go to await their day in "court". I don't worry about it because it is inconsequential in this life and I don't believe that anyone's beliefs about it will effect them one way or another. Its more important to just live this life well so that you never have to find out first hand what hell is!

Hell is like the south pole station; "Sounds awful but I have no intention of going there".

Peace.




Hee hee Talmid..Amen to all of that!

&nbsp;

Missy

[MissytheButterfly]

Today at 12:36 AM chelcb said this in Post #42 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=668233#post668233)

I love Dr. Laura.



So do I, but I sure don't think I would call her and ask any questions.. YIKES.. LOL! :eek:

&nbsp;

Missy

[MissytheButterfly]

Today at 12:41 AM chelcb said this in Post #43 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=668241#post668241)

How does the different Messianic congregations settle disputes? And how do they vary in their theology? Is there any kind of governing body that helps keep things in check?




Mainly by going to the brother or sister and telling them the issue and settling it by themselves by using the word of God.&nbsp; From time to time&nbsp;Messianics involve the Rabbi if an issue cannot be settled among themselves. But it's common among Messianics to keep peace, mainly because Messianics believe in the unity of believers period and sort of shun confusion. But of course there are exceptions like with anyone and this idea does vary because as you know we are all human..

Really the varied things with Messianics is some Messianics keep kosher, some don't, some observe all the feasts, some don't, some accept the trinity, some don't. I will say Messianic Jews (cultural Jews that have adopted Yeshua as Messiah) usually always keep the feasts and keep kosher, it is Messianic Gentiles that vary mainly on those issues. Some Messianic Gentiles do not feel the need to be bound by the law and do not follow the law to the letter but are very respectful of those that do follow and usually do not condemn, judge or disrespect another for following the law. Messianics usually believe it is a personal matter. But of course you have those that have a COW if you don't follow the law in the Messianic faith..

&nbsp;Other than that Messianics basically believe the same things theologically about the validity of the Messiah, the God of Abraham, the salvation of the Jews, Heaven and Hell, etc.. now types of worship may differ..some congregations are more liberal than others.. you may see Davidic dance in one and speaking in tongues..in another you may see a more reflective tone to the service without the dance and speaking in tongues. But for the main part congregations of Messianic faith are rather lively.

There is not a governing body in the Messianic faith as in like the Pope or a body of priests, bishops, elders, etc. Usually the Rabbi sets the tone for his own congregation with relying on biblical information of the Tanach and the Brit Chadasha. A Messianic Rabbi is usually well studied in Judiasm, Messianic Judiasm, Christianity, and various biblical sources and translations.

Missy



&nbsp;

[chelcb]

Missy,

That was a good explanation, I see the picture now.

What is the belief on justification? Do you believe it's faith alone or faith and "works"?

[Pray4Isrel]

I am awake and reporting for duty! Sir, Yes Sir! :)

Ok, Ok, I am finally visiting this thread after having been elsewhere for what seems like forever.
It's kinda rude for me not to be as actively&nbsp;involved in this thread since it's named after me and all... :sorry:&nbsp;

But either way, I always agree with&nbsp;Dr. Laura, err I mean Missy&nbsp;and Talmid so I won't have that&nbsp;much to add! ;)&nbsp;

Chelcb, about justification and faith/works...&nbsp; I really don't see how their could be much of a disagreement within a body of Believers on this because it clearly speaks about this in the Word.&nbsp; My Father always says it best when he explains how faith and works go hand in hand in that you will want to do works if you have faith.&nbsp; However, it is not by our works that we are saved.&nbsp; See, we try not to disregard either because I think it is a critical balance.&nbsp; See, because of Faith I desire to do works...yet&nbsp;my Salvation is not dependant upon the amount or weight of the works I have done.&nbsp; Now I believe that the more one matures in their faith, the more they will desire to continue doing works... the ways of the world become so void in comparison to the ways of God.&nbsp;&nbsp;The entire book of James sums up best about the Faith/Works issue.

&nbsp;James 2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

&nbsp;James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

&nbsp;James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
<!-- BEGIN FOOTER ROUTINE ---></TABLE><!--- This is where the table for the biblical text ends --->

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Why is this post off-center? :scratch:

[isshinwhat]

Thanks, ya'll!

Neal

[chelcb]

P4I,

What happened to your post? How did it get to the other side of the page?

Okay, now...the biggy, what is you take on Mary or devotion to her?

[MissytheButterfly]

Hey all.. P4I explained how we believe in justification and works perfectly..

About Mary..we believe Mary of course is the mother of Yeshua, was a virgin and was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit to become pregnant with Yeshua. But we do not reguard her in the way the Catholic church does.

We see her as a good woman that mothered Yeshua and set a good example for all women. Other than that we don't place any other significance on her. We do not pray to her, we do not believe she was an umm..what's the Catholic term ..eternal or perpetual (sp) virgin ?, and we don't believe she holds any power to keep us from any type of damnation. In the Messianic faith we basically reguard Yeshua in the highest sense and not I suspect what some would call saints such as Mary, Anne, Paul, Peter....etc.

We see her (Mary) as being a blessed woman that mothered Yeshua and that's usually the extent of it..


Missy

[chelcb]

Do you acknowledge her as the Mother of God? I guess if some messianic do not have the same belief in the trinity then perhaps not.

I am a little surprised that Jewish believers do not hold her in a higher esteem, (not saying that they don't have any esteem) because of their respect for the Jewish law (honor Mother and Father) and she is a Jewish Mother of a Jewish Son, I would think that they would believe Jesus would have a special honor for her in eternity.

Those are just my thoughts, I hope you don't mind sharing.

[MissytheButterfly]

Today at 09:49 PM chelcb said this in Post #52 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=669774#post669774)

Do you acknowledge her as the Mother of God? I guess if some messianic do not have the same belief in the trinity then perhaps not.

I am a little surprised that Jewish believers do not hold her in a higher esteem, (not saying that they don't have any esteem) because of their respect for the Jewish law (honor Mother and Father) and she is a Jewish Mother of a Jewish Son, I would think that they would believe Jesus would have a special honor for her in eternity.

Those are just my thoughts, I hope you don't mind sharing.



Personally, I do not reguard her as the mother of God. And I would say in my opinion that most Messianic Jews do not either..now Messianics Gentiles..it varies some what because of the whole trinity situation, etc.

God has no beginning or ending so he couldn't have a mother to be born into existance..so most Messianics would probably tell you God has no mother, and that&nbsp;Mary was the mother of Yeshua..

I wouldn't say&nbsp;she isn't held&nbsp;in high esteem..just not as umm..worshipful ? honoring ? doting ?&nbsp;(don't know an appropriate word here so sorry) as a Catholic does. I suspect&nbsp;it's looked at in more of a Protestant view in the Messianic faith for a lack of a better explanation...

And we do believe that Yeshua has&nbsp;a special honor for his Mother because she's HIS mother..

Yeshua and God are the basis for Messianic belief..not Mary.

But yes, she's respected.

Messianics: :help:

Shalom,

Missy

[Pray4Isrel]

You don't need help, you explained it perfectly!
:)
Chelcb, I view Mary the same way as described by Missy. Are there any Messianics here that would disagree?

[chelcb]

What would the believers that do not acknowledge the trinity believe about it? IOW, what do they think father, son, and spirit is?

[Talmid HaYarok]

I don't know what those who don't acknowledge the trinity would say, but I don't think that I'd term them believers. The Trinity is a core creed of the Messianic faith.

It was a common belief of most Jews around the time of Yeshua, but Rabbinic Judaism moved away from that position in a stance to differentiate themselves from Messianics. If you have not fully embraced G-d's Triune nature then you haven't become a true Messianic. Rather you'd still be following Rabbi Yeshua as nothing more than a good Rabbi.

Shalom

[chelcb]

Thanks.

[MissytheButterfly]

Hmmm, that's interesting Talmid.. I've always here it's preference about the trinity.. oh well.. different strokes for different folks..

Missy

[Talmid HaYarok]

Heh, I didn't understand that last post. Could you clarify for me please?

[MissytheButterfly]

Sorry this took so long Talmid.. I have been really busy..

I have always heard it's preference in Messianic communities about the trinity. Since most Messianic Jews usually keep with the original thought more or less about it being ONE TRUE GOD and the idea of the trinity denotes 3 gods to some...etc I have NEVER heard that the trinity is a core creed of Messianic belief. What I have heard is that the father in Heaven is the one true God and Yeshua is the promised Messiah.. but not that they neccessarily make up the trinity..though I know some adopt that belief..in the trinity.. That's all...

But as I said different strokes for different folks.

Shalom,
Missy

[chelcb]

Missy,

Do most messianics believe that Jesus is God?

[MissytheButterfly]

Well I wouldn't know what most believe in that particular reguard since I don't know them all.. it varies for different people...

sorry..

[Pray4Isrel]

Chelcb, are you referring to the Trinity?
Yes we believe in the Trinity: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Jesus is the Son of God but since He is part of the Trinity, He is God... kinda hard to explain. The best way I can say it is that yes, we believe in the Trinity.
Gee, did I make it more confusing or what! :eek:

[chelcb]

Why are there so many different belief among the mesianics?

[Talmid HaYarok]

Yes, I believe that Yeshua was one with the heavenly father and holy spirit in the Triune G-d.

That is simple Orthodoxy and what the early Messianics held to.

[Pray4Isrel]

Which different beliefs among Messianics are you referring to, Chelcb?
How many spin-offs could there be?

[MissytheButterfly]

Today at 01:55 PM chelcb said this in Post #64 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=677085#post677085)

Why are there so many different belief among the mesianics?




There really aren't.. It's usually a person's preference what they adopt and what they don't.. There is a main Orthodox Messianic way but like Christianity..it varies because different people refuse to accept certain things or just have different interpretations of them.

Like some Messianics believe one must follow the Law period and some believe Yeshua completed or ended the Law when he died..But of course in Orthodox Messianic belief one would observe and follow the Law.

For instance, I know Catholics that think abortion is okay..is that a Orthodox Catholic view ? NO WAY!

I know Protestants that do not believe in Sola Scriptura..is that an Orthodox Protestant way.. NO WAY!

So I hope you get my drift...

Missy

&nbsp;

[MissytheButterfly]

Chel, This may help you understand better..

This is from the UMJC (Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations), it states Orthodox Messianic beliefs..not the offspins..
1) WHAT IS MESSIANIC JUDAISM?

Messianic Judaism is not a completely new movement, but rather the resurrection of a very old movement .. the identity described under the term "Messianic Judaism" was the identity of the apostles and the community of Jewish "followers of the Way" in the first and second centuries.1

Messianic Judaism is regarded by its adherents as the latest
stage in the historical development of authentic biblical Judaism.
It is the religion of Abraham, Moses, David, and the prophets, brought
to fulfillment through the coming of Yeshua (Jesus)2 the Messiah.3


2) HOW IS MESSIANIC JUDAISM DIFFERENT
FROM TRADITIONAL JUDAISM? 4

As for Messianic Judaism, the Judaism that believes in Yeshua the Messiah, the facts are as follows: the sole authority for faith and practice is the Bible, consisting of the Old and New Covenants.5

Traditional Judaism teaches that the Tanakh (Hebrew Scriptures) and the Talmud are God's Eternal Word, that the New Testament lacks this authority, and that Yeshua is not the Messiah. Messianic Judaism, in contrast, teaches that the Tanakh and the New Testament Scriptures together are God's Eternal Word, that the Talmud lacks this authority,6 and that Yeshua is the Messiah.

For 19 centuries, with very rare exceptions, it had become Customary to set Christianity over against Judaism as its Antithesis.8

Since the second century, much of the Church has taught that Christianity Is a separate and distinct religion from Judaism. Although biblically-grounded Christians recognize this to be error, it is still a strongly held view among traditional church-goers. This perspective has historically promoted the unbiblical doctrine that the Hebrew Scriptures were superseded by the New Testament,9 that the Church has replaced Israel as the covenant people of God, and that Yeshua's first disciples converted from the Jewish religion to a new religion called Christianity.

Messianic Judaism, in contrast, believes that Yeshua did not come to establish a new religion, but rather to "fulfill" an ancient one (Matthew 5:17). It upholds the view that the New Testament is a continuation of the Hebrew Scriptures (2 Timothy 3:16),10 and it emphasizes God's love and faithfulness to the Jewish people (Romans 11), teaching that Gentiles share (not take over) the blessings that God has bestowed on Israel (Romans 15:27). Finally, Messianic Judaism
contends that Jewish people who follow Yeshua do not become converts to another religion, but rather remain Jews – Messianic Jews (Colossians 4:11).

Will continue in next post

[MissytheButterfly]

6) HOW DO MESSIANIC JEWISH CONGREGATIONS
MEET THE NEEDS OF JEWISH PEOPLE? 15

" How shall a Jew be enabled to maintain his heritage of Shabbat and feast while holding to the capstone of revelation in Yeshua How shall a Jew enable his children to grow up with a sense of heritage, to be Bar Mitzvah arid maintain an ongoing involvement in the Jewish community? The Synagogue will not open its door to train his children and the majority of local churches will not provide for this. How then? The answer is clearly congregational, for achieving this individually or through a monthly fellowship may be inadequate or too difficult to sustain for the average person."

The Jewish people are called by God to be a distinct and enduring people (Jeremiah 81:35-36). It is important, therefore, for Messianic Jews to maintain their Jewish identity and pass this heritage on to their next generation. Messianic Jewish congregations help to accomplish this in the following ways:



Rabbi/Elder
Messianic Jewish congregations provide a leadership base that is able to impart vision, knowledge, wisdom, discernment and counsel to the members of the community in regard to biblical faith and Jewish lifestyle.

Calendar
Messianic Jewish congregations follow an annual cycle of events referred to in the Scriptures as "the appointed festivals of the Lord" (Leviticus 23). These include Friday night and/or Saturday worship services, Rosh Chodesh (New Moon) assemblies, Passover seders, as well as the celebrations of Matzot (Unleavened Breads), Bikkurim (First Fruits), Shavuot (Weeks), Yom Teruah (Trumpets), Yom Kippur (Atonement), and Sukkot (Tabernacles). Secondarily, Purim (Lots), Hannukah (Dedication) and other traditional commemorations are also observed.

Diet
Messianic Jewish congregations encourage the eating of biblically kosher foods.

Dress
Messianic Jewish congregations provide an environment where men can wear the kippa (head covering), tallit (prayer shawl), tsitsit (fringes) and tefillin (phylacteries). Women sometimes also wear appropriate head coverings.

Symbols
Messianic Jewish congregations appreciate Jewish objects and symbols that serve as reminders of the Scriptures and Jewish identity. These include Torah scrolls, kiddush cups, seven-branched menorahs, etc.

Music
Messianic Jewish congregations use Jewish forms of music in their services and celebrations. They also have a love for Israeli folk and Chassidic styles of dance.

Siddur
Messianic Jewish congregations incorporate into their services selected elements of the Siddur, the traditional Jewish prayer book.

Community
Messianic Jewish congregations are actively involved in the local Jewish community. They encourage their members to visit other synagogues, attend seminars on Jewish issues, and join charitable Jewish organizations.

Hebrew
Messianic Jewish congregations in the diaspora encourage learning Hebrew as a second language. Their members are encouraged to attend Hebrew classes, converse with fluent speakers and learn Hebrew liturgy.

Israel
Messianic Jewish congregations view Israel as a Jewish homeland. Members often support the nation financially, Join annual tours, and consider making aliyah (returning to the land).

Circumcision
Messianic Jewish congregations promote the biblical practice of brit milah (covenant circumcision) for Jewish children.

Children
Messianic Jewish congregations provide children with instruction in the Scriptures, and on the meaning and importance of living a biblical Jewish lifestyle.16 Often, this education leads to Bar Mitzvah or Bat Mitzvah (a ceremony of passage).

Adult Education
Messianic Jewish congregations seek to provide their members with continuing adult education in all areas of biblical and traditional Jewish studies.

Marriage
Messianic Jewish congregations provide an environment for single people to meet one another and find prospective marriage partners.17 They offer marriage counseling that deals with the various aspects of the biblical covenant, and of maintaining a biblical Jewish household. Also, Messianic Jewish congregations celebrate traditional Jewish weddings, and provide couples with a caring community in which they can begin their married lives together.

Proselyte
Messianic Jewish congregations provide a community context in which proselytes can be covenentally received into the nation of Israel.18

Death
Messianic Jewish congregations appreciate and practice the traditional/biblical Jewish approach to burial and mourning.

7) HOW DO MESSIANIC JEWISH CONGREGATIONS DEAL WITH TRADITIONAL JUDAISM'S VIEW OF YESHUA?

The truth concerning the miracle-working rabbi from Nazareth
has never been clearly presented to the Jewish people.19

Messianic Jewish congregations believe that Yeshua was 100% faithful to biblical Judaism and the Jewish people.20 That notwithstanding, many in the traditional Jewish community see him differently and contend that Yeshua's teachings were contrary to Jewish faith and practice.21 Most proponents of this view do not arrive at this conclusion through research, but rather through a prejudice created by 1900 years of Christian anti-Semitism. This characterization of Yeshua is rarely questioned in the Jewish community due to a stigma placed on the study of his life and teachings by rabbinic authorities.22

Messianic Jewish congregations seek to correct this mistaken view of Yeshua through education – by encouraging research into primary sources such as the New Testament, and secondary background sources including the writings of Josephus, non-canonical books, Aramaic targums, early rabbinic literature and archaeological findings such as the Dead Sea Scrolls. Contemporary works on the historical Jesus and the Messiah's place in Judaism are additional valuable sources. Messianic Jewish congregations are confident that history supports their perspective, and that those who research Yeshua's life and teachings will ultimately reach the same conclusion.


9) WHY DO GENTILES JOIN MESSIANIC
JEWISH CONGREGATIONS?

How does today's Christian learn to think and approach life as Abraham, Moses, David and the prophets did, and as Jesus, Paul and the apostles did? This knowledge comes only by uncovering the overarching mind-set that the writers of Scripture reflect. We must enter their world and become conversant with their culture.26

A special characteristic of Messianic Jewish congregations throughout the world is the significant number of members who are Gentiles. These members share in all of their Jewish brothers' spiritual blessings (Romans 15:27) and, as well, are full participants in every aspect of Messianic Jewish congregational life (Ephesians 2:19). If this seems strange, consider that the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament were both written by Jews, the early heroes of the Christian faith were all Jews, and most significant of all, the Messiah, Yeshua, was a Jew. By living with Jews and living like Jews27 these Gentile members return to the historical and spiritual Jewish roots of their New Covenant faith. Finally, by joining Messianic Jewish congregations, they are able to bless the people whom God used to first bless them.28

And here is what I really think you are looking for Chel

10) WHAT DO MEMBERS OF MESSIANIC
JEWISH CONGREGATIONS BELIEVE?

Messianic Jews are avid biblical literalists and believe In a "normal" interpretation of the Bible. That is, the words of the biblical text Just as they stand, must be regarded as the correct and sufficient sense of the passage unless the context demands another interpretation.29



God and Creation
There is only one living God, the God30 of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,
the Creator of heaven and earth (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Yeshua is the Messiah
Yeshua is Israel's promised Messiah and Redeemer of the entire human race.

By His life, death and resurrection, He fulfilled the Messianic prophecies of the Tanakh (Hebrew Scriptures) relating to the Messiah's first coming. Yeshua, the Divine Word made flesh, is the fullest revelation of God to man
(Isaiah 52:13-53:12; Luke 24:44; Colossians 2:9).

Man's Relationship With God
God made man in His own image and endowed him with a longing for intimate fellowship with his Creator (Genesis 9:6; Psalms).

Man's Fall Into Sin
Man's disobedience to God's revealed will caused a separation between man and God (Genesis 2:17; Isaiah 59:2; Romans 5:12).

The Messiah, Our Substitute
The only provision God made for fully reconciling man to Himself was through the atoning work of Yeshua, Who died as the sacrifice for our disobedience and rose again, manifesting His victory over sin and death (Romans 5:18-19; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 2:6-11).

The Bible, God's Word
The Bible, consisting of both the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament, is God's Word to man. It is the only reliable and authoritative guide to faith and conduct (Matthew 5:18; 24:35; 2 Timothy 3:16).

The Message of Reconciliation
All who repent from sin and accept God's message of salvation in Yeshua the Messiah are born of the Holy Spirit. Faith in Yeshua as the Mediator of the New Covenant restores us as children of God (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 1:12; Hebrews 2:11-17; 1 John 3:1).

The New Covenant Congregation
Those who are of the Spirit of God become members of the worldwide congregation of God, the Body of the Messiah. This one spiritual fellowship includes both Jews and Gentiles as equal members of this one body
(1 Corinthians 12:12-13, 27; Ephesians 2:1f-13, 18-22).

Gifts and Fruit of the Holy Spirit
The work and presence of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer brings forth the fruit of righteousness. The Holy Spirit also manifests His gifts, power, and authority in the local body of believers, enabling them to become a Spirit-filled community of love and service (1 Corinthians 12; Galatians 5:22).

God's Law in the Bible
God gave the practices of the Torah (Law) for moral instruction and as a body of cultural-national practice which would point forward to the Messiah's work. The Torah is valid as a reflection of God's righteous standards and as a means of preserving Israel as a distinct nation. Fulfillment of the Torah by the work of Yeshua does not imply its abrogation. Righteousness with God, however, is solely by grace through faith (Matthew 5:17-19; Acts 15, 21; Romans 3:21-22, 31; 7:12).

The Nation of Israel
The nation of Israel is chosen by God to be a channel of blessing to all the nations on earth. The return of the Jewish people to the land is in fulfillment of biblical prophecy. The day will come when Israel as a nation will call on the Messiah Yeshua. Then Yeshua will come again to establish His worldwide rule from Jerusalem31 and the word of the Lord will go forth from Zion, as all nations come to gaze on Him with Joy (Isaiah 2:1-4; 11 60, 62; Matthew 23:39; 24:14; Romans 11) 32

[MissytheButterfly]

And Messianics please PLEASE PLEASE comment on ANYTHING that I have written or posted if you believe I am incorrect, mislead, or misinformed..

I believe as fellow believers it is important for us to correct eachother in brotherly and sisterly love..and the corrected should take it in love..so i will NOT get offended if any of my Messianic brothers or sisters feel they need to correct me or add to something I have posted or written.

Remember this verse : 19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

And this is EXACTLY how I would look at a correction from my Messianic brothers and sisters..
SO PLEASE FEEL FREE !

Shalom
Missy

[chelcb]

Thanks Missy, that was great information.

[MissytheButterfly]

You are welcome Chel..glad I could be of help...

NOW STOP ASKING QUESTIONS.. LOL!

No, I am kidding.. I will answer if I can..

Bless you,
Missy

[chelcb]

Well I would like to know if the messianics feel as strongly about the Sat. Sabbath being kept in the way the SDA does.

It seems as though the SDA Church feels the Sat. Sabbath is the foundation for salvation, that one can not be "saved" if they don't keep the sabbath on sat. do mesianics feel the same way?

[Talmid HaYarok]

Too many Messianics in my opinion take it too far in trying to uphold the Talmudic halacha rules and traditions.

For instance wearing a Kipa is tradition and not mandated by the Bible. I simply wear a nice hat.&nbsp; :)

The Torah also says that we're to but a blue stripe in our Tzitzit, Talmudic interpretation says not to "because we don't know what dye they used traditionally". There is no commandment about using a specific dye, so I believe a Messianic Jew should only wear Tzitzit with the blue stripe.

Oh, and most Messianic congregations that I know of do not receive Proselytes.

Again many congregations follow Glatt Kosher instead of Torah Kosher simply by Jewish tradition and in many cases they don't know better. I personally don't hold it against anyone either way so long as they are sincere in following the Lord. It is faith which is important, not religion because in the faith in Yeshua all are forgiven their trespasses (if they have a repentant heart) and nobody will make it to the Lord trying to follow religion because nobody can follow it perfectly.

&nbsp;

[Talmid HaYarok]

Keeping the Sabbath isn't a Salvitic work, but it is a sin not to for Jews.

I can't comment on the SDA as I'm not really familiar with their beliefs.

[chelcb]

" faith in Yeshua all are forgiven their trespasses (if they have a repentant heart) "

So do messianics believe one can lose salvation?

[Pray4Isrel]

Heehee, now we get into another topic that just might have many different points of view... anyone care to share how they view Salvation?
I'll go last on this one :)

[chelcb]

Well if it helps Catholics believe that any sin is forgiven but if you sin against the HS by saying to God, I don't want you or your forgivness, I'm fine with out you, and I like my sins, then you will send yourself to hell basically because it is you that will not accecpt salvation, not God with holding it.

[MissytheButterfly]

Well personally I believe salvation comes to those that accept God period and choose to live according to his will. Of course no one is perfect..so thankfully God made grace. His will in my opinion can be found in the Tanach and the Brit Chadasha.. but if you only have exposure to the Tanach or acknowledge only the Tanch.. I don't see that as one doesn't have salvation.

I do believe that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the only sin one cannot come back from..

Missy