Churches That Abuse [Archive]

4Jesus

16th February 2003, 11:48 AM

In his book, "Churches That Abuse" by Dr. Ronald Enroth, he says:A central feature of an abusive church is control-oriented leadership. The leader in an abusive church is dogmatic, self- confident, arrogant, and the spiritual focal point in the lives of his followers. The leader assumes he is more spiritually in tune with God than anyone else. He claims insight into Scripture that no one else has. Or, he may state that he receives personal revelations from God. Because of such claims, the leader's position and beliefs cannot be questioned; his statements are final. To members of this type of church or group, questioning the leader is the equivalent of questioning God. Although the leader may not come out and state this fact, this attitude is clearly seen by the treatment of those who dare to question or challenge the leader. The leader of the movement often makes personal decisions for his followers. Individual thinking is prohibited; thus the followers become dependent on the leader. In the hierarchy of such a church, the leader is, or tends to be, accountable to no one. Even if there is an elder board, it is usually made up of men who are loyal to, and will never disagree with, the leader. This style of leadership is not one endorsed in the Bible. According to Scripture all believers have equal access to God and are equal before Him because we are made in His image, and we are all under the authority of the Word of God. In 1 Thessalonians 5:21 believers are directed to measure all teachings against the Word of God. Acts 17:11 states that even the apostle Paul was under the authority of the Bible, and the Bereans were commended because they tested Paul's teachings with the Scriptures. Leaders and laity alike are to live according to Scripture.

Has anyone ever encounter a church like this?

Live4Jesus

16th February 2003, 12:52 PM

the spiritual focal point in the lives of his followers. The leader assumes he is more spiritually in tune with God than anyone else. He claims insight into Scripture that no one else has.

Like with the pope you mean?

kern

16th February 2003, 12:57 PM

So the Catholic Church is an "abusive church"?

-Chris

chelcb

16th February 2003, 01:03 PM

Why do some continually want to disrespect the rules?

Live4Jesus

16th February 2003, 01:19 PM

You are in the wrong forum chelc, here are the rules for you:

Non-Denominational Protestant Forum Rules

1) This forum is open to all Christians. Non-Christian members are not allowed to post here.

2) Protestant, Evangelical and Reformed members, as well as Non-Denominational Christian members can post fellowship threads here as well as debate threads to discuss various doctrines to do with their own denomination and other denominations (including the Catholic church), as long as they are within our rules.

3) Non-Protestant members (eg. Catholic members) can only post fellowship posts here or posts to ask a question regarding Protestant or Evangelical doctrine. Once the question is answered, there shall be no debate over the answer in this forum by the Non-Protestant. Any debate posts by Non-Protestants will be deleted or moved to the Interdenominational Doctrine Debate forum. In other words, only Protestant members can debate here.

Live4Jesus

16th February 2003, 01:21 PM

I do know the catholic church and the pope would fit into that description real well 4Jesus, though there are others too...

interesting.

kern

16th February 2003, 01:33 PM

You need to check the rules yourself. You cannot make these kinds of posts regardless of what forum it is in. I have reported your post to the moderators.

-Chris

Live4Jesus

16th February 2003, 01:44 PM

this attitude is clearly seen by the treatment of those who dare to question or challenge the leader.

really right here is this thread even. Must be a good book.

Aside from that area in the catholic church though, I haven't run into very many myself... I know there have been events like Waco, where it seems like that is what was going on.. We've visited (and stayed a number of weeks at each) baptist churches - they were some Ok, Charisamtic churches - they were some ok (some of this in there I think), a Messianic church - they were OK, Churches of God - they were some OK, and a few other little denoms in there, mostly ok, didn't experience anyything of that nature in any of them, the closet might be one little charismatic church out in the boonies here in VA that had a woman pastor who was real controlling,, took a few weeks to really see it... at first you can't be sure you know, we don't stay anywhere where the pastor or anyone has to be the ultimate top dog and no matter what they do they are right right right. ... so we didn't stay there... she had some funny ideas I must admit... she would spend equal time discussing Jesus as discussing why she wasn't married and how many marriage proposals she had had that month... hoy veh...

It's my impression that when a church leader can't be fully open, he's hiding something... if the only way he can maintain his authority is by saying BECAUSE well.. that says a lot.

I have seen a couple other pastors here and there who treated people like that (don't question me attitudes) end up in a pretty bad way, adultery, divorce etc... they continue on nonetheless so beware... also ran into a congregation of masons within the baptist church... if they can't be questioned about anything,, well, it may often be because they can't justify the answer...

my 2 cents worth.

Live4Jesus

16th February 2003, 01:47 PM

Today at 04:33 PM kern said this in Post #7 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=656479#post656479)

You need to check the rules yourself. You cannot make these kinds of posts regardless of what forum it is in. I have reported your post to the moderators.

-Chris

What kind of posts Kern? We can't discuss this book here? What are you saying? Our opinions are illegal?

Reformationist

16th February 2003, 01:49 PM

:( :( :(

I think if this were an honest attempt to determine whether the Catholic church fit into this description then it would be fine and the motive of this thread would clearly be one of seeking unity and understanding.  Even if the original posters motive was one of edification this topic is one that probably cannot be discussed without stumbling our brethren.  It would be too easy to be offended or respond in an ungodly way.  This is a face to face discussion at best.  Online is not the place for this.

For what it's worth, I don't believe the Catholic church fits into that catagory at all.  While I may not agree with many of the interpretations that church adheres to I think, for the most part, it is filled with wonderful Christians seeking to please God.

God bless

Jeffer

16th February 2003, 01:53 PM

A central feature of an abusive church is control-oriented leadership. The leader in an abusive church is dogmatic, self- confident, arrogant, and the spiritual focal point in the lives of his followers. The leader assumes he is more spiritually in tune with God than anyone else. He claims insight into Scripture that no one else has. Or, he may state that he receives personal revelations from God. Because of such claims, the leader's position and beliefs cannot be questioned; his statements are final. To members of this type of church or group, questioning the leader is the equivalent of questioning God. Although the leader may not come out and state this fact, this attitude is clearly seen by the treatment of those who dare to question or challenge the leader. The leader of the movement often makes personal decisions for his followers. Individual thinking is prohibited; thus the followers become dependent on the leader. In the hierarchy of such a church, the leader is, or tends to be, accountable to no one. Even if there is an elder board, it is usually made up of men who are loyal to, and will never disagree with, the leader. This style of leadership is not one endorsed in the Bible. According to Scripture all believers have equal access to God and are equal before Him because we are made in His image, and we are all under the authority of the Word of God. In 1 Thessalonians 5:21 believers are directed to measure all teachings against the Word of God. Acts 17:11 states that even the apostle Paul was under the authority of the Bible, and the Bereans were commended because they tested Paul's teachings with the Scriptures. Leaders and laity alike are to live according to Scripture.

I attended a Church like that when I was first got saved and never really knew what was going on until I started to grow as a Christian and learn more of the Bible.

chelcb

16th February 2003, 02:01 PM

Today at 10:21 AM Live4Jesus said this in Post #6 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=656471#post656471)

I do know the catholic church and the pope would fit into that description real well 4Jesus, though there are others too...

interesting.

So bashing the Pope is allowed in this forum...interesting indeed.

Do tell, how does one know that the author of the text that was quoted knows this to be fact? Where is his evidence that would support his claim?
 iow, who is he?
 

Live4Jesus

16th February 2003, 02:02 PM

I have only seen a very little bit of it, but considering that here for instance, poeple show up claiming to be christian, yet are real lost... have to wonder what they've been taught, they're angry and everything...

4Jesus I do know has some issues, she got them somewhere too... she is real wary of anything Charismatic, why is that 4Jesus? i would like to know what you saw too.

Anyway I found what looks to be a decent a book review of the title:
http://www.csj.org/pub_csj/csjbookreview/csjbkrev92churches.htm

If things cannot be discussed openly, we are nowhere. I am sorry that catholics feel they have to defend any statement about catholicism that doesn't fit their own worldly or personal view, but there are people who have experienced many things within not just other churches, but the catholic church as well. if it were not so, the church would not be facing numerous lawsuits concerning abuse, documented facts and cases some of which are quite well known. to say it only happens elsewhere would be to just throw icing on a cake and try to deceive ourselves that it's a lemon meringue pie.

chelcb

16th February 2003, 02:04 PM

Today at 10:49 AM Reformationist said this in Post #10 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=656491#post656491)

:( :( :(

I think if this were an honest attempt to determine whether the Catholic church fit into this description then it would be fine and the motive of this thread would clearly be one of seeking unity and understanding.  Even if the original posters motive was one of edification this topic is one that probably cannot be discussed without stumbling our brethren.  It would be too easy to be offended or respond in an ungodly way.  This is a face to face discussion at best.  Online is not the place for this.

For what it's worth, I don't believe the Catholic church fits into that catagory at all.  While I may not agree with many of the interpretations that church adheres to I think, for the most part, it is filled with wonderful Christians seeking to please God.

God bless

 

Thanks Ref.

kern

16th February 2003, 02:10 PM

Today at 10:47 AM Live4Jesus said this in Post #9 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=656489#post656489)

What kind of posts Kern? We can't discuss this book here? What are you saying? Our opinions are illegal?

There are two things you are doing here, one of which is not allowed, the other of which is just dishonest.

1. Saying that the Catholic Church is abusive because of the Pope's qualities. This is not allowed.

2. You are posting misinformation about the Catholic Church. This is not forbidden by the rules, but it is a dishonest tactic to do so in a forum where Catholics may not respond to the accusations.

-Chris

chelcb

16th February 2003, 02:14 PM

Today at 11:10 AM kern said this in Post #15 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=656505#post656505)

There are two things you are doing here, one of which is not allowed, the other of which is just dishonest.

1. Saying that the Catholic Church is abusive because of the Pope's qualities. This is not allowed.

2. You are posting misinformation about the Catholic Church. This is not forbidden by the rules, but it is a dishonest tactic to do so in a forum where Catholics may not respond to the accusations.

-Chris

I still would like to know the reason why anyone should listen to what this guy, who wrote the book has to say? What gives him the authority to say that about any Chrsitian?

This thread is about judgeing other Christians, it is disgraceful.

Live4Jesus

16th February 2003, 02:26 PM

Catholics are not suppose to debate in this forum. thats why its here, for non-catholics to debate, discuss.

You have a forum, please use it. No matter where any of us go around this webboard, there are 2 or 3 of you who pop in to disdredit everyone, everyone, with accusations, insinuations. This is not a catholic forum. We are free to discuss our experiences with that church and other churches as well here.

You go into every forum doing this, including this one, which is not a catholic forum. Is there a place kern and chelci where the rest of us can discuss the issues of our hearts without having you to tell us exactly what to discuss and how?

4Jesus

16th February 2003, 02:26 PM

I don't think any denomnination has to be mentioned. All someone has to say is yes or no, aunt Tilly got mixed up with a church like that blah, blah, blah and what happened.

Live4Jesus

16th February 2003, 02:28 PM

What flag is that on your profile Jeffer? I don't recognize it, your country, which is it?

4Jesus

16th February 2003, 02:30 PM

Today at 11:14 AM chelcb said this in Post #16 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=656508#post656508)

I still would like to know the reason why anyone should listen to what this guy, who wrote the book has to say? What gives him the authority to say that about any Chrsitian?

This thread is about judgeing other Christians, it is disgraceful.

I dobut very seriously if a church that operates under these guidelines is Chrisitian. It sounds more like a cult to me. 

kern

16th February 2003, 02:30 PM

Today at 11:26 AM Live4Jesus said this in Post #17 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=656516#post656516)
You go into every forum doing this, including this one, which is not a catholic forum. Is there a place kern and chelci where the rest of us can discuss the issues of our hearts without having you to tell us exactly what to discuss and how?

There certainly is, but just not on Christian Forums. Anti-catholic posts are not allowed regardless of the forum in which they are posted.

-Chris

chelcb

16th February 2003, 02:31 PM

Today at 11:26 AM Live4Jesus said this in Post #17 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=656516#post656516)

Catholics are not suppose to debate in this forum. thats why its here, for non-catholics to debate, discuss.

You have a forum, please use it. No matter where any of us go around this webboard, there are 2 or 3 of you who pop in to disdredit everyone, everyone, with accusations, insinuations. This is not a catholic forum. We are free to discuss our experiences with that church and other churches as well here.

You go into every forum doing this, including this one, which is not a catholic forum. Is there a place kern and chelci where the rest of us can discuss the issues of our hearts without having you to tell us exactly what to discuss and how?

 

So you do think bashing the Pope and the RCC is allowed on your forum?

4Jesus

16th February 2003, 02:31 PM

Today at 10:53 AM Jeffer said this in Post #11 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=656493#post656493)

I attended a Church like that when I was first got saved and never really knew what was going on until I started to grow as a Christian and learn more of the Bible.

Thanks, This is exactly the kind of response I was looking for.

chelcb

16th February 2003, 02:32 PM

Today at 11:30 AM 4Jesus said this in Post #20 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=656522#post656522)

I dobut very seriously if a church that operates under these guidelines is Chrisitian. It sounds more like a cult to me. 

But where is the evidence and who has the authority to judge what is cult and what is not?

Live4Jesus

16th February 2003, 02:34 PM

Today at 05:30 PM 4Jesus said this in Post #20 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=656522#post656522)

I dobut very seriously if a church that operates under these guidelines is Chrisitian. It sounds more like a cult to me. 

Well like I say, we ran into very few, but we did run into a few... on the other hand, we only visited say 12-15 churches before deciding on which was best for us... we have since left that church and now go sporadically into town to the messianic church or the like... we did leave a church I really liked because one of the youth pastors was extremely harsh with my daighter, who was only 6 at the time... my kid was crying, literally, about the way that woman treated her (and I loved the pastor of that church btw) so we left. Nothing worse than sending your kid to a christian school, only to get hurt.. the kid was only 6, what can a 6 year old do that is so bad?

Live4Jesus

16th February 2003, 02:39 PM

It's pretty widespread, there are lawyers who devote their practices to it, should tell you something:

http://www.clergyabuselawyer.com/

http://www.church-sexual-abuse-lawyers.com/

4Jesus

16th February 2003, 02:40 PM

Reformationist

16th February 2003, 02:46 PM

Today at 09:40 AM 4Jesus said this in Post #27 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=656533#post656533)

My post was an honest attempt to see if people have experienced this kind of church. No denominations needed to be mentioned. Live4Jesus knows better than to reply like they did. :(

Just so you know I did not mean to sound like you were looking for ways to insinuate anything about the Catholic church.  I apologize if I came across that way.  I was just saying that a thread of that nature is, I think, too volatile to be addressed online.  As honest as your motive might have been there are too many people here with an alterior agenda.

God bless,

Don

Live4Jesus

16th February 2003, 02:49 PM

I am more like you 4Jesus, very wary.

Even though my faith is real strong, I have seen soo very much...

Which is exactly why since we left our last church, we only go sporadically... it is hard to find a really good church, a free church shall we say...

I actually like fellowshipping here with you more than anything :)

You haven't binded me into any doctrines, and even though we disagree on our views of the word here and there... I think we both learn as we go, new things just by discussing whatever, that we wouldn't/couldn't if we were siting in front of a tv all day, or even just home alone.

chelcb

16th February 2003, 03:00 PM

Today at 11:40 AM 4Jesus said this in Post #27 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=656533#post656533)

My post was an honest attempt to see if people have experienced this kind of church. No denominations needed to be mentioned. Live4Jesus knows better than to reply like they did. :(

4 Jesus- go back and read post 2, she says "like the Pope"? That was uncalled for as Ref says in a public Christian forum this is not the place.

How would any one like it if I said 'like Luther, Calvin, Pat Swaggart or Billy Ghram?

4Jesus

16th February 2003, 03:03 PM

Today at 11:46 AM Reformationist said this in Post #28 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=656540#post656540)

Just so you know I did not mean to sound like you were looking for ways to insinuate anything about the Catholic church.  I apologize if I came across that way.  I was just saying that a thread of that nature is, I think, too volatile to be addressed online.  As honest as your motive might have been there are too many people here with an alterior agenda.

God bless,

Don

Don, Every post that comes across this forum has the potential to be abusive but I see an unfair practice of deleting whole threads just because someone decided to be a religion basher. The fairer practice would be to delete the offensive post and leave the thread.

My thread is very necessary. We've already had one person that said they have experienced this kind of abuse. 

Live4Jesus

16th February 2003, 03:03 PM

This looks like an interesting page... beware I have not read it fully, just now found it..

http://www.caic.org.au/zabusive.htm

From what I can tell, the motives behind abuse in the church usually head in a few distinct directions:

Sex, money, power over followers, claims of being 'the prophet' etc.

I read somewhere a while back about a priest who was telling kids that he was the second coming of Christ, then he would sexually abuse them. boys if I remember correctly. It's one of thsoe well known cases you may have heard of it... but little kids, even adults, new christians, when they hear this from a high up memeber of the church they attend, what are they suppose to think? These guys wear the robes, have the degrees and the positions of power, the people look behind and say 'how can all these people be mislead it just cannot be..,'

it's a difficult situation at best.

The bible does say beware of false teachers, it's in there for a reason, people really do need to heed it. they see signs and wonders, they go running, but the bible says distinctly, beware of that.

Maybe it's God determining those who desire signs and wonders above Him alone, and obedience to His word. I have considered that often. The signs and wonders are out there, I would be hard pressed to tell they are all from God, quite the opposite... so in there is the devil at work too...

Kind of dampens the credibilty on things like theological doctorates for sure... a man should be led of God, not the ideas of men (or himself). Anyone can get a college degree if they have the money and time.

4Jesus

16th February 2003, 03:05 PM

Today at 11:32 AM chelcb said this in Post #24 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=656527#post656527)

But where is the evidence and who has the authority to judge what is cult and what is not?

When people can't speak their mind and disagree without being put down for it, that is a good sign they are involved with an abusive church. That is a point my original post made.

Live4Jesus

16th February 2003, 03:06 PM

Today at 06:03 PM 4Jesus said this in Post #31 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=656562#post656562)

Don, Every post that comes across this forum has the potential to be abusive but I see an unfair practice of deleting whole threads just because someone decided to be a religion basher. The fairer practice would be to delete the offensive post and leave the thread.

My thread is very necessary. We've already had one person that said they have experienced this kind of abuse. 

The one youth pastor at our church too, really, my daughter would come home crying almost every day because of her, we had to quit that church.

I don't really care who was wrong or right, you don't do that to a six year old.

Live4Jesus

16th February 2003, 03:07 PM

Today at 06:05 PM 4Jesus said this in Post #33 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=656567#post656567)

When people can't speak their mind and disagree without being put down for it, that is a good sign they are involved with an abusive church. That is a point my original post made.

Amen.

Live4Jesus

16th February 2003, 03:09 PM

catch you later 4jesus girl, I have to get some stuff done here today, back later, probably after dinner...

chelcb

16th February 2003, 03:13 PM

Today at 12:05 PM 4Jesus said this in Post #33 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=656567#post656567)

When people can't speak their mind and disagree without being put down for it, that is a good sign they are involved with an abusive church. That is a point my original post made.

But don't you think that would depend on what they are disagreeing about?

Reformationist

16th February 2003, 03:25 PM

Today at 10:00 AM chelcb said this in Post #30 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=656559#post656559)

4 Jesus- go back and read post 2, she says "like the Pope"? That was uncalled for as Ref says in a public Christian forum this is not the place.

How would any one like it if I said 'like Luther, Calvin, Pat Swaggart or Billy Ghram?

See, now I don't understand this.  You just got done saying that the behavior was uncalled for.  Why would you mimic it, even to make a point?  It was wrong to say, "like the Pope."  I think your question of "how would any one like it..." was rethorical and best left unasked.  I think you know quite well how we'd feel. :(

Reformationist

16th February 2003, 03:30 PM

Today at 10:03 AM 4Jesus said this in Post #31 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=656562#post656562)

Don, Every post that comes across this forum has the potential to be abusive but I see an unfair practice of deleting whole threads just because someone decided to be a religion basher. The fairer practice would be to delete the offensive post and leave the thread.

My thread is very necessary. We've already had one person that said they have experienced this kind of abuse. 

Believe me, I truly see your point, and I agree.  I just don't subscribe to the theory that just because a question can be asked and dealt with in a godly way that we should disregard the possibility of trouble that it could cause.

I think, and this is an odd thing to say on a discussion/debate MB, that we often look at topics as, "Hey, this is a valid question" and fail to see that it is more important to strive to keep our brother from stumbling than it is to make a point, even a valid one.

4Jesus, I think your idea of deleting the offending post only would be a much better method of dealing with inappropriate posts which would give any who were exhibiting self-control an opportunity for learning and growth.  Maybe you could suggest that to one of the mods?

God bless

chelcb

16th February 2003, 03:44 PM

Today at 12:25 PM Reformationist said this in Post #38 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=656598#post656598)

See, now I don't understand this.  You just got done saying that the behavior was uncalled for.  Why would you mimic it, even to make a point?  It was wrong to say, "like the Pope."  I think your question of "how would any one like it..." was rethorical and best left unasked.  I think you know quite well how we'd feel. :(

To reinforce the point and to give some insight into just why we would view this as offensive. It's called asking someone to have emphathy.

I do it with my kids, I ask how would you like it if so and so said this about you? You wouldn't so you should not do the same to another.