On Poverty [Archive] - Christian Forums

Live4Jesus

14th February 2003, 12:53 AM

Someone in the apologetics area wanted to know why God doesn't feed all the poor people... you know that type of question and where it can lead with an unbeliever...

So I wanted to post here some thoughts on the issue. For instance, in India, this is what missionaries deal with... this is an excerpt from a newsletter of a church we tithe to that does lots of mission work there:

"India's Poverty Is a Spiritual Issue

India is a land of plenty, but most of the people are kept in poverty by two important teachings of Hinduism, their primary religion.

First, their cows, which are worshipped as gods, consume 20% of the total food supply. Each cow eats enough for 7 people. The more than 209 million cows consume enough food to feed 1.4 billion people. India's population is around 1 billion. It is a fertile land which produces more than enough food to feed their people. If they got rid of all the cows -or better yet, ate the cows- they could sell the exces to feed the poor in other nations.

Second, Hindus believe that the needs of the poor, destitute and wretched individuals should not be met. They believe that these people need tp pay the penalty in this life for their misdeeds in a past life; only then will they be able to ascend to a higher level. in other words, helping someone in need prevents him from getting to the next klevel. There is no regard for human life."

---

Likewise I have also read that one of the main reasons that Muslims are so caught up in war, is that they believe that people should live an extremely bare existence in order to be closer to God; in other words the lack of material possesions is what can help us achieve that closeness with God. So that therefore, as the logic goes, when one tribe asssaults another and destroys their villages it can be seen as an act of piousness, because it leaves those people in a state of poverty, which is smiled upon by allah.

Terri

14th February 2003, 01:03 AM

Thanks Live4Jesus--that is so true and so sad.

Andrew

14th February 2003, 02:18 AM

yeah, poverty is a curse!

Texas Lynn

14th February 2003, 05:10 AM

Thanks for two good examples of differences between our culture and others. We see similar things on a smaller scale in this country among more extreme fundamentalist types who are militantly pronatalist and encourage families with limited means to reporduce greatly. The status of women is also in play here. When women are honored and respected, poverty decreases.

You don't see that attitude in effect among the Oil Sheikhs and their families in the Muslim World, or among the Brahmins in India, though. What's that saying---"Religion is what keeps the poor from killing the rich."

Live4Jesus

14th February 2003, 01:51 PM

Today at 08:10 AM Texas Lynn said this in Post #4 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=652545#post652545)

Thanks for two good examples of differences between our culture and others. We see similar things on a smaller scale in this country among more extreme fundamentalist types who are militantly pronatalist and encourage families with limited means to reporduce greatly. The status of women is also in play here. When women are honored and respected, poverty decreases.

You don't see that attitude in effect among the Oil Sheikhs and their families in the Muslim World, or among the Brahmins in India, though. What's that saying---"Religion is what keeps the poor from killing the rich."

Where are these people (more extreme fundamentalist type) I have never met any. Are you talking about the Amish?

Just a slice there sort of but I have truly never met any, there are weirdos everywhere you go I suppose, I wouldn't say it's neccessarily a 'christian fundamental' leaning or standard fundamental teaching by any means. that is mostly secular rhetoric far as I know, to demean christains/religion, it has absolutely no basis in truth. Just because a wierd guy is a fundamental christian doesn't earmark all fundamentals.

The Catholic church teaches the same thing btw, big families, it s more predominant there than anywhere so 'fundamental'? No not hardly. More like the opposite.

I suppose though at that rate if the types who do that are just fundamental christians... well where would black people who live in ghettos fall into that category? they are many times poor, with many kids, and hey, even a single mother. and not all are church goers. maybe racism and sexism play a part? maybe education or lack of? Keep in mind that prior to just a short half century ago, black citizens were not allowed to get an education. Though they were not technically slaves, neither were they really free. They were, and many times still are, bound to a class system and society that is not in their favor. Which has nothing at all to do with women being honored.

The caste system allows Brahmins their wealth, while maintaining that the lower castes are fine living on the streets, thats the whole point. There is no commonly felt duty to share or help the needy. Its all a matter of birthright, including poverty. The muslim shieks... I don't know... they are probably the ones sending the lower classes to battle but that is just conjecture on my part...

Live4Jesus

14th February 2003, 02:22 PM

I had a friend came back from haiti once, never been there myself, but He goes like this 'no matter where you go... all the women are pregnant.'

So what's that? Those are hardly fundamental christians, a mixture of voodoo and catholicism being the mainstream religion down there...

dignitized

15th February 2003, 02:48 PM

poverty CAN be a curse, but i can ALSO be a blessing :) St Francis as voluntarily poor and look what that did for him, the church, and the whole faith. Like it or not, poor people tend to be closer to God for one, and closer to true happiness. When you have no THINGS its hard for you to try t o find happiness and contentment in those THINGS.

By human standards - I am poor. By divine standards I am rich. I have CHRIST :)

Live4Jesus

15th February 2003, 07:26 PM

Today at 05:48 PM Br. Max said this in Post #7 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=655040#post655040)

poverty CAN be a curse, but i can ALSO be a blessing :) St Francis as voluntarily poor and look what that did for him, the church, and the whole faith. Like it or not, poor people tend to be closer to God for one, and closer to true happiness. When you have no THINGS its hard for you to try t o find happiness and contentment in those THINGS.

By human standards - I am poor. By divine standards I am rich. I have CHRIST :)

Hey Br Max .. how goes it... long time no see.

I would agree, in essence perhaps only though, in regard to why people are poor here or there... not all seek God and still many are poor..

I think also, that many times, until a person hits bottom, they look to the world to fulfill their needs. when they do finally hit bottom, and the world is no longer providing for those needs, they do many times tend to seek God right there, they are out of other options.

That is assuming, they have been taught, even briefly, about the true living God. In other cultures, like hindu, those poor cannot really seek God for relief, they don't know that there is a living God that cares about them. They accept their poverty and condition as something that their god has predetermined for them, something that they MUST accept... and to move against it, in that system of belief, is actually to deny god.

So there's quite a bit of difference between cultures, and the way a person may react concerning their condition.

Hindu btw I think is the same religion that burns the wife when the husband dies, far as i know it is still done in places. consider... a woman with 5 small children, of any class, whose husband dies... she must go into the funeral fire as well, leaving the children parentless.

In the case of Islam, poverty then as one way of pleasing allah is a viscious cycle. Rising too far above takes you further from allah... and war thus can be seen as an act of piousness against one neighbors... the result being that just like that we see going on in many parts of the muslim world today, asia minor, africa... is disease, lack of sustenance, orphaned children, and lack of education, all pointing to a downward spiral rather than upward mobility.

dignitized

16th February 2003, 01:22 AM

Christ said - the poor will be with you always. Its something that will always be. People need to stop however focusing on those who are materially poor and focus instead on those who are eternally poor.

Live4Jesus

16th February 2003, 02:02 AM

Today at 04:22 AM Br. Max said this in Post #9 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=655951#post655951)

Christ said - the poor will be with you always. Its something that will always be. People need to stop however focusing on those who are materially poor and focus instead on those who are eternally poor.

Br Max, you don't see these people we are discussing as being eternally poor?

Andrew

17th February 2003, 04:09 AM

poverty CAN be a curse, but i can ALSO be a blessing

You really need to read Deu 28 and find out the difference between a curse and a blessing. Poverty is never a blessing as far as the Bible is concerned. Study the long list of curses in Deu 28, followed by the listings of blessings. You'll find that poverty is always in the curse section, and prosperity in the blessings section. You'll never find a poverty 'curse' in the blessings category as well.

Christ said - the poor will be with you always.

you are using that out of context. Jesus said: 7 For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.

He's certainly not saying that its good to be poor or that its a blessing. read the whole story.

Rafael

17th February 2003, 11:41 AM

Jesus asks if we fed Him when He was hungry, clothed Him when He was naked, visited Him when He was sick, and did we give Him shelter when He was a stranger. Certainly, to love our neighbor as ourselves would be to make sure they have the basics we supply ourselves in nourishing and cherishing our bodies with food, clothing, and shelter.

Loving our neighbors as ourselves should make dramatic differences in our neighborhoods and communities, everywhere there are churches calling themselves by the Lord's name and being in obedience to His Word and example of giving expecting nothing in return.

Ephesians 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

Matt. 25:31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Blindfaith

17th February 2003, 03:18 PM

Didn't Jesus say that it's difficult for a rich man to enter heaven?  Yes, he did.

sklippstein

17th February 2003, 05:33 PM

i understand what Br. Max means by poverty being both a curse or a blessing. A poor man more than likely will seek the Lord in all things....as the Lord is our source, thereby having a strong faith.

dignitized

17th February 2003, 09:53 PM

Today at 02:09 AM Andrew said this in Post #11 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=657907#post657907)

You really need to read Deu 28 and find out the difference between a curse and a blessing. Poverty is never a blessing as far as the Bible is concerned. Study the long list of curses in Deu 28, followed by the listings of blessings. You'll find that poverty is always in the curse section, and prosperity in the blessings section. You'll never find a poverty 'curse' in the blessings category as well.

you are using that out of context. Jesus said: 7 For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.

He's certainly not saying that its good to be poor or that its a blessing. read the whole story.

Matthew 19:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+19:21&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 
 

 

 

What is this verse saying?  If the rich man gives all that he has to the poor what does that make him? 

 

Luke 6:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=LUKE+6:20&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
 

 

Sounds like God is calling poverty a blessing here.

 

Revelation 3:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=REV+3:17&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

 

A wise man does not care for TEMPORAL riches which moth and rust corrupt. 

 

POVERTY is a blessing. Poverty allows a man to find comfort in GOD rather than his wealth - contentment in doing good rather than in gaining more. WEALTH is an obstacle on the road to salvation.

chelcb

18th February 2003, 01:18 AM

Poverty is never a blessing as far as the Bible is concerned

Well how come the Holy Family (Jesus, Mary, and Joesph) was poor? And how come Jesus was homeless? He said..."the birds have their nest and the foxes have their holes but the son of man has no place to lay his head?"

Jesus was poor, was he cursed??

dignitized

18th February 2003, 01:38 AM

must have been since poverty is ***ALWAYS*** a curse!!

Andrew

18th February 2003, 01:58 AM

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.Ê

well then, have you done that? do you walk the talk? do u then despise other Christians who are rich?

What is this verse saying?Ê If the rich man gives all that he has to the poor what does that make him?Ê

yeah but dont forget Jesus also said anyone who gives up anything for him will recieve a hundred fold return IN THIS LIFE.

Mark 10:29 Jesus said, "Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, 30 who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions[those against prosperity], and in the age to come eternal life.

POVERTY is a blessing. Poverty allows a man to find comfort in GOD rather than his wealth - contentment in doing good rather than in gaining more. WEALTH is an obstacle on the road to salvation.

like i said, you really need to read Deu 28 to find out the diff betw a blessing and a curse.

Well how come the Holy Family (Jesus, Mary, and Joesph) was poor? And how come Jesus was homeless? He said..."the birds have their nest and the foxes have their holes but the son of man has no place to lay his head?"
Jesus was poor, was he cursed??

Jesus was never poor, except on the cross. I dont consider a man who can multiply bread to feed 5000, turn water into top quality wine, etc poor. Mary and Joseph did not remain poor after Jesus came into the picture. The Magi gave them gold, myrrh and frankincense. Do a study of the frankincense -- at that time, such fragrances were considered even more expensive than the gold.

Mt 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

If you believe so much in poverty being a blessing, then stop being a hypocrite and live like John the Baptist. Why are you still living in that nice home, sleeping on that nice comfy bed, wearing nice clothes etc.

I find Christians who speak against prosperity one of the biggest hypocrites. I debated with a man once on this topic. at the end of the session, when we go to the carpark, he drives off in a BMW. My brother spoke to another who was already earning $8000 but wanted to earn more, wanted to move to a bigger home, wanted to buy cuff-links for his nice shirts etc yet he was so against Christians prospering. :(

chelcb

18th February 2003, 02:53 AM

Jesus was never poor, except on the cross. I dont consider a man who can multiply bread to feed 5000, turn water into top quality wine, etc poor. Mary and Joseph did not remain poor after Jesus came into the picture. The Magi gave them gold, myrrh and frankincense. Do a study of the frankincense -- at that time, such fragrances were considered even more expensive than the gold

 

 :eek:

Rafael

18th February 2003, 05:47 AM

James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

Andrew

18th February 2003, 05:48 AM

tongue-tied i guess.

Here's more scriptures on the curse of poverty:

Deu 28:

17 Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store.
18 Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
31 Thine ox shall be slain before thine eyes, and thou shalt not eat thereof: thine *** shall be violently taken away from before thy face, and shall not be restored to thee: thy sheep shall be given unto thine enemies, and thou shalt have none to rescue them.
33 The fruit of thy land, and all thy labours, shall a nation which thou knowest not eat up; and thou shalt be only oppressed and crushed alway:
38 Thou shalt carry much seed out into the field, and shalt gather but little in; for the locust shall consume it.
39 Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress them, but shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them.
40 Thou shalt have olive trees throughout all thy coasts, but thou shalt not anoint thyself with the oil; for thine olive shall cast his fruit.
42 All thy trees and fruit of thy land shall the locust consume.
44 He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail.

Let's hope you now know what is a curse and what is a blessing.

chelcb

18th February 2003, 10:18 AM

dignitized

18th February 2003, 12:06 PM

Yesterday at 11:58 PM Andrew said this in Post #18 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=659862#post659862)

well then, have you done that? do you walk the talk? do u then despise other Christians who are rich?

Jesus was never poor, except on the cross. I dont consider a man who can multiply bread to feed 5000, turn water into top quality wine, etc poor. Mary and Joseph did not remain poor after Jesus came into the picture. The Magi gave them gold, myrrh and frankincense. Do a study of the frankincense -- at that time, such fragrances were considered even more expensive than the gold.

If you believe so much in poverty being a blessing, then stop being a hypocrite and live like John the Baptist. Why are you still living in that nice home, sleeping on that nice comfy bed, wearing nice clothes etc.

I find Christians who speak against prosperity one of the biggest hypocrites. I debated with a man once on this topic. at the end of the session, when we go to the carpark, he drives off in a BMW. My brother spoke to another who was already earning $8000 but wanted to earn more, wanted to move to a bigger home, wanted to buy cuff-links for his nice shirts etc yet he was so against Christians prospering. :(

1 - As a VOWED religious I do walk the walk and not just talk the talk.

2 - When did I say ANYTHING about hating the rich?

3 - If been rich is such a blessing, why are there more believers in the 3rd world where people are POOR and in the 1st world where people are RICH paganism, atheism and humanism FLOURISH!

 

4 - And FYI, I made less than $10 grand last year. Of the monies I made, I gave both tithes and love offerings, paid my dues, gave to charitable works, paid my bills and still managed to have enough money to do nice things for others.

5 - poverty is as much a curse as wealth. BOTH can cause men to focus on the TEMPORAL rather than the eternal - THINGS rather than GOD.

 

6 - Christ chose to be born in a STABLE rather than a palace.  He chose to be born into a CARPENTERS family rather than a aristocrats. God did NOT and does NOT value temporal riches except so far as we can used them to comfort those in NEED. Read the parable of the rich man and his barns.

7 - BTW I live in a building owned by the community I belong to sleep in a LUMPY bed which also belongs to the order - when I drive, I drive one of the vehicles owned by the order and then ONLY on business for the order - and as far as clothes - I wear a habit for petes sakes and when I am not wearing the habit my clothes were either purchased in discount stores or purchased for me. lol

 

I suggest that you not judge the walk of another util you know what their walk entails.

dignitized

18th February 2003, 12:09 PM

I love when people read the bible intent on proving their doctrines and beliefs rather than read the bible to find the doctrines and beliefs of God.

chelcb

18th February 2003, 01:35 PM

Mother Theresa said that that our poverty, (the westren world) is our wealth.

linda4jesus

18th February 2003, 02:38 PM

Today at 07:18 AM chelcb said this in Post #22 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=660332#post660332)

The sacrifice that Mary and Joseph brought with them to the temple on the 8 th day of the presentation was two turtledoves; this was a suitable sacrifice for those who were poor.

Andrew, you will never convince me that Jesus was rich and the bible simply does not support the health and wealth gospel that is very new and very popular in our materialistic society today.

Not every case of poverty is a blessing in of it's self but a consequence of ones own actions. If you gamble your rent money, you'll be put out on the streets, but when that happens God allows such things so he will be put first, not money.

What about Mary's canticle? "He has filled his poor...the rich he has sent away empty." And what about Lazareth? He was in the bosom of Abraham while the greedy rich were in torment.

chelcb,

I agree with you.

Jesus was poor in the material sense.....but rich in the abundance of Love.

We all have thought....only if we make more money...then I'll be happy; then we make that amount and nothing really changes. It doesn't matter if you are rich or poor as long as your belly is full and you are warm. Money cannot buy happiness, it can only make life a little easier.

dignitized

18th February 2003, 03:01 PM

True Linda - BUT, I will take it a step farther. Happiness is a result of outward events and circumstances - I'd rather have JOY which comes from within from the Lord Himself. :) JOY does not depend on what I have or what anyone else has. I can be Joyful in poverty or in wealth. Joy does not depend upon my human situation it depends on my relationship with God and my willingness to trust in Him and HIS provision for my life.

chelcb

18th February 2003, 03:58 PM

Today at 11:38 AM linda4jesus said this in Post #26 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=660652#post660652)

chelcb,

I agree with you.

Jesus was poor in the material sense.....but rich in the abundance of Love.

We all have thought....only if we make more money...then I'll be happy; then we make that amount and nothing really changes. It doesn't matter if you are rich or poor as long as your belly is full and you are warm. Money cannot buy happiness, it can only make life a little easier.

 

Oh, my...we agree?!? :eek:

linda4jesus

18th February 2003, 04:16 PM

Today at 12:58 PM chelcb said this in Post #28 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=660817#post660817)

 

Oh, my...we agree?!? :eek:

I know, scary huh....lol

SUNSTONE

18th February 2003, 04:54 PM

Yesterday at 11:18 PM chelcb said this in Post #16 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=659792#post659792)

Poverty is never a blessing as far as the Bible is concerned

Well how come the Holy Family (Jesus, Mary, and Joesph) was poor? And how come Jesus was homeless? He said..."the birds have their nest and the foxes have their holes but the son of man has no place to lay his head?"

Jesus was poor, was he cursed??

Jesus made Himself poor, He made Himself a curse for our sakes. He took the punishment that we deserve.

Jesus set the example of laying down His life, so that we should do the same to each other. The word says to give to those who ask, how are you going to give something if you don't have it to give?

SUNSTONE

18th February 2003, 05:01 PM

God wants you to have enough money that you may bless other people.

If having money and being rich were bad things, then why would you encourage people to goto college?

Money isn't the problem, its what you do with money that is the problem.

dignitized

18th February 2003, 06:33 PM

sunstone - I agree that having money is not the problem. The porblem comes when people feel that having money is a sign of being blessed and not having money is a sign of being cursed BOTH by the hand of GOD.

chelcb

18th February 2003, 07:44 PM

Right...Br. Max.

This notion that we are all supposed to be rich and that Jesus was to, is not supported AT ALL by scripture.

SUNSTONE

18th February 2003, 10:15 PM

Today at 04:33 PM Br. Max said this in Post #32 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=661126#post661126)

sunstone - I agree that having money is not the problem. The porblem comes when people feel that having money is a sign of being blessed and not having money is a sign of being cursed BOTH by the hand of GOD.

Paul says if you don't work, expect not to eat. Alot of proverbs talks about money. Saying bad things about laziness, and selfishness, and greed. The bible says that a wise man will leave an inheritance for his children or grandchildren(?). Where a fool spends all that he has.

Also God talks about tithing, and what He will do if you faithfully tithe. God wants you to have more than enough money, to help yourself, and more important than that, to help other people. He even wants you to have money to do activitys, and to have nice things. But your goal is on building the Kingdom of God. Paying tithes, helping people, paying all your bills, having savings.

chelcb

18th February 2003, 10:38 PM

Sunstone:

The scriptures say that you reep in this world what you sow. You create, what you create. If you are lazy and you do not work, you will not eat.

This has nothing to do with anyone having a right to riches just because they are Christian.

dignitized

18th February 2003, 11:14 PM

I have no problem with people being rich if God wills it - but lets not forget that the reward of the wicked is during this life time while the rewards of the righteous come in eternity. I'd MUCH rather be poor in this life than poor in the life to come.

sklippstein

18th February 2003, 11:16 PM

amen

Andrew

19th February 2003, 12:16 AM

The sacrifice that Mary and Joseph brought with them to the temple on the 8 th day of the presentation was two turtledoves; this was a suitable sacrifice for those who were poor.
Andrew, you will never convince me that Jesus was rich and the bible simply does not support the health and wealth gospel that is very new and very popular in our materialistic society today.

health and wealth is part of the Gospel. There's no escaping this Biblical truth. I can prove it with scriptures but since you prefer to be poor, according to your faith be it unto you.

Not every case of poverty is a blessing in of it's self but a consequence of ones own actions. If you gamble your rent money, you'll be put out on the streets, but when that happens God allows such things so he will be put first, not money.

poverty is a curse pure and simple. Read Deu 28 to understnd the diff betw a curse and a blessing. Or use a dictionary.

What about Mary's canticle? "He has filled his poor...the rich he has sent away empty." And what about Lazareth? He was in the bosom of Abraham while the greedy rich were in torment.

pls rightly divide the Word and dont talk as if Jesus did not die and rise again. Study his work on the cross -- the aspect of divine exchanges -- and you will begin to see.

Andrew

19th February 2003, 12:22 AM

Also God talks about tithing, and what He will do if you faithfully tithe. God wants you to have more than enough money, to help yourself, and more important than that, to help other people. He even wants you to have money to do activitys, and to have nice things. But your goal is on building the Kingdom of God. Paying tithes, helping people, paying all your bills, having savings.

EXACTLY!!! And how is one supp to do all that if he has to beg for money, borrow from others, live off welfare etc. Pretty common sense.

God doesnt prosper us just so we can go for expensive holidays and eat in hotels, he prospers us firstly becos he is a God who loves to bless and give good gifts, secondly to finance the kingdom of God. And all this is possible becos Christ became poor on the cross so that we might be made rich. Its a done thing. Whether you experience it or not depends on whether you believe and act on it.

2Co 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

Health/Wealth/Protection/Long Life Gospel:

Psalm 103
2 Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities [Jesus saves]; who healeth all thy diseases [Jesus heals];
4 Who redeemeth thy life from destruction;[Jesus protects] who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;
5 Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; [Jesus prospers] so that thy youth is renewed like the eagleÕs.[Jesus gives long life]

3Jo 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth. -- prosperity and health plain and simple

check out the Greek for saved/salvation too -- it includes, protection, deliverance, healing, well-being, wholeness etc.

chelcb

19th February 2003, 03:32 AM

health and wealth is part of the Gospel. There's no escaping this Biblical truth. I can prove it with scriptures but since you prefer to be poor, according to your faith be it unto you.

Your sure assuming a lot here about me aren't you? I can prove they were poor so who's right?

poverty is a curse pure and simple. Read Deu 28 to understnd the diff betw a curse and a blessing. Or use a dictionary.

He was talking about sin, not money. Do you think being poor is a sin?

pls rightly divide the Word and dont talk as if Jesus did not die and rise again. Study his work on the cross -- the aspect of divine exchanges -- and you will begin to see.

See what? What are you talking about? When did I say that Jesus did not die and rise, what does that have to do with what I posted? 

Andrew, I respectfully disagree with the health and wealth gospel that is being preach today.

Andrew

19th February 2003, 07:45 AM

Your sure assuming a lot here about me aren't you? I can prove they were poor so who's right?

Quote the Word, not experiences and lifestyles. Read the Word.

He was talking about sin, not money. Do you think being poor is a sin?

Read Deu 28 again. Being poor is not a sin. But poverty is a curse.

See what? What are you talking about? When did I say that Jesus did notÊdie and rise, what does that have to do with what I posted?Ê

Things have changed since the cross, that's my point. dont put old wine into new wine skins, or you'll get confused.

Andrew, I respectfully disagree with the health and wealth gospel that is being preach today.

IOW, you disagree with the Gospel.

Pls provide scripture for your arguments too. eg: show me a verse which says poverty is a blessing of the Lord. Better still if you think you are so right -- 3 verses -- since 2 or 3 witnesses establishes a matter.

chelcb

19th February 2003, 09:55 AM

Andrew,

I am not allowed to debate you in this forum so if you want to continue then the thread has to be moved.

nikolai_42

19th February 2003, 10:24 AM

14th February 2003 at 01:18 AM Andrew said this in Post #3 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=652295#post652295)

yeah, poverty is a curse!

"And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head."  

 Matthew 8:20

"Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me." 
  Luke 18:22

"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree."

 Galatians 3:13

dignitized

19th February 2003, 01:36 PM

[B]Yesterday at 10:16 PM Andrew said this in Post #38 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=661850#post661850)

health and wealth is part of the Gospel. There's no escaping this Biblical truth. I can prove it with scriptures but since you prefer to be poor, according to your faith be it unto you.

NOWHERE In the gospel does Christ promise health or wealth to his followers.  In fact his commands are to LEAVE comfort behind and to follow him denying your flesh and fleshly desires to follow him.  I guess According you anyone who does not have heath or wealth is not Christian.  I guess Christians only exists in the first world then and of course according to you any man that gives up position and wealth to go into the mission field is of course not Christian because God wants us to be rich.

 

What did Christ say about a rich man entering heaven? something about the eye of a needle??

poverty is a curse pure and simple. Read Deu 28 to understnd the diff betw a curse and a blessing. Or use a dictionary.

 

The passage from deuteronomy is a SPECIFIC curse against those under the covenant of the LAW for specific behavior. It is not way intend to be applied universally. :sigh: reading the bible shows that. :(

 

Andrew

19th February 2003, 10:33 PM

Andrew,
I am not allowed to debate you in this forum so if you want to continue then the thread has to be moved.

I've already given you the scriptures and shown you that health and wealth is part of the redemption work of Christ. Even the NT word "saved" (sozo) encompasses all those things. But if you refuse to accept it and insist on believing that poverty can be a blessing, then all I can say is according to your faith be it unto you.

Rule: 3) Non-Protestant members (eg. Catholic members) can only post fellowship posts here or posts to ask a question regarding Protestant or Evangelical doctrine. Once the question is answered, there shall be no debate over the answer in this forum by the Non-Protestant. Any debate posts by Non-Protestants will be deleted or moved to the Interdenominational Doctrine Debate forum. In other words, only Protestant members can debate here.

chelcb

20th February 2003, 12:48 AM

Today at 07:33 PM Andrew said this in Post #45 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=663773#post663773)

I've already given you the scriptures and shown you that health and wealth is part of the redemption work of Christ. Even the NT word "saved" (sozo) encompasses all those things. But if you refuse to accept it and insist on believing that poverty can be a blessing, then all I can say is according to your faith be it unto you.

Thank you Andrew but I will respectfully disagree. Thank you for your time.

dignitized

20th February 2003, 01:01 AM

chelsi: just about everyone disagree with that stance except the TBN people and well . . . they are not known for being orthodox in their theology. . . .:rolleyes:

chelcb

20th February 2003, 01:12 AM

Today at 10:01 PM Br. Max said this in Post #47 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=664093#post664093)

chelsi: just about everyone disagree with that stance except the TBN people and well . . . they are not known for being orthodox in their theology. . . .:rolleyes:

 

LOL

Andrew

20th February 2003, 06:52 AM

chelsi: just about everyone disagree with that stance except the TBN people and well . . . they are not known for being orthodox in their theology. . . .

That's becos you are pro-Catholic or Catholic. As far as many charismatic churches as well as this Forum are concerned, TBN/WOF is very much orthodox and accepted.

What is considered unorthodox though, among protestants in this protestant section, are the doctrines of the Catholics. So dont shoot yourself in the foot.

chelcb

20th February 2003, 09:59 AM

Today at 03:52 AM Andrew said this in Post #49 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=664568#post664568)

That's becos you are pro-Catholic or Catholic. As far as many charismatic churches as well as this Forum are concerned, TBN/WOF is very much orthodox and accepted.

What is considered unorthodox though, among protestants in this protestant section, are the doctrines of the Catholics. So dont shoot yourself in the foot.

 

FYI...Catholics are Charismatic too.

Budge

20th February 2003, 01:03 PM

I consider the health and wealth gospel to be a great heresy. It is an invasion of the occult into the church...and is parallel with teachings in Hinduism about caste. Read Dave Hunt's Occult Invasion to learn how using God like an ATM machine for endless cash and wealth and for selfish reason is akin to witchcraft. God is not a magic genie to be manipulated that way.

Ive been poorer then dirt. Im talking in the ghetto, no car, no phone, violent neighborhood, food negotiable, near homelessness for over 4 years. I worked hard, had been social worker but did not make money to survive and had gotten ill. Does this mean I was an evil person less deserving of Gods graces?

(I am not poor any longer Thank you Lord, but even if I had stayed in object poverty or even if I was without anything now I would never look away from Christ)

Also I have serious health issues. I wake up knowing that even this last year was Gods gift. I am diagnosed with 7 health conditions. Does this mean I am an evil person racking up the sin meter. According to the health and wealth gospel I must be the most evil person on Planet Earth if one takes my multiple health challenes into account. I am a sinner and admit that but under the blood of Christ I am saved. Even if I ended up bedbound and housebound everyday instead of some days due to weather and dying on my deathbed, I would not see this as abandonment of God, I will not let my suffering have me look away from Christ either.

Ones bank accounts and money does not represent how close they are too God. My best friend who is an die hard atheist is going to be a millionaire when her mother dies. She has over $600,000 dollars in the bank with more to come. I have $600 bucks to my name and a husband that works hard at a working class wage albeit professional job (he is doing best to better himself and has a book being published later this year) Who is richer? I am richer Well I love my best friend but she does not have the richness of Christ in her life. I pray she does.

According to the health and wealth gospel my healthy and wealthy friend is closer to God. I am hellbound if one takes my mounting bills and health into account according to this logic.

It makes no sense.

chelcb

20th February 2003, 01:57 PM

I would not see this as abandonment of God, I will not let my suffering have me look away from Christ either.

Amen Budge, You have my prayers.

Budge

20th February 2003, 07:42 PM

Thanks Chelcb:)

God bless you!

sbbqb7n16

20th February 2003, 08:35 PM

This is the point at which I think things get mixed up: Yes God does want to (and is very able to) bless you in finances and health, BUT financial prosperity and good health are not neccessarily "blessings." (Kinda like a square is always a rectangle, but a rectangle is not always a square) Same with poverty... sometimes poverty is a curse placed upon people, but not all poverty is the evidence of a curse. Does that make sense?

The reason I don't always agree with TBN on their money stuff is that they tend to focus on the money stuff. Perfectly understandable sometimes seeing as that money is the main thing they need to run their ministry. But I hate hearing people focus on that so much. "Look at the blessings you are supposed to have" rather than "Look how great our God is and how He wants to bless you." There is so much difference is those two statements, and the latter should be how their message is presented.

Keep this in mind though, Jesus knew good and well that if He ever needed anything, (money, food, house, donkey, etc.) all He had to do was ask the Father and He could have it. Think about that... does it really mean that because Jesus wasn't out rollin the bills with 5 Swiss Bank accounts, that He was in poverty? If you truly know that whatever you need all you have to do is ask God and you can have it, you don't need all that! What good are 5 bank accounts gonna do you when the bank isn't open and your wallet is at home? Jesus just had to say it and Viola! He would have whatever He needed. That's prospering in my eyes.

It also says something about His humbleness. He knew He could have all the money and materials in the world because He owns the cattle on a thousand hills, He created the cattle and the hills that the cattle are on! but He didn't seek after all that. He lived humbly before the world, knowing all He had to do is ask.

Does that make these verses say anything different to you now:

"Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?" -Matthew 6:26

"So then why do you worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the pagans run after all these things and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first His kingdom and righteousness and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." -Matthew 6:31-33

"If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him." -Matthew 7:11

Do you see the humbleness? He knew He could have it, but didn't want to show off... that's how we should be. And out of His good mercy, He gives us this promise as well as He had given of Himself:

"Jesus replied 'I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was dome to the fig tree, but you can also say unto this mountain "Go, throw yourself into the sea," and it will be done. If you believe you will recieve whatever you ask for in prayer." -Matthew 21:21-22

Isn't God awesome!? :D

Andrew

20th February 2003, 10:08 PM

I consider the health and wealth gospel to be a great heresy.

Then you are simply saying that part of the Gospel is heretical.

Also, your entire post contradicts yourself. You talk about being poor and in bad health, yet you imply that it is heretical if God wants you to be in good health and not suffer lack. You really need to read your Bible.

According to the health and wealth gospel I must be the most evil person on Planet Earth if one takes my multiple health challenes into account.

You obviously do not understnd the work of the cross and insult it.

sbbqb, at least you make some sense. but can you see that health and (good) wealth is part of the gospel? once you can see that, all the argument stops. Do you know what the term divine exchange means?

The reason I don't always agree with TBN on their money stuff

whose talking abt TBN. Let's see what the Word says.

nikolai_42

20th February 2003, 11:41 PM

Andrew, a couple of questions for you.

First, if God wants us to be wealthy, then why doesn't He simply make it so? What is stopping us from becoming wealthy?

Taking it a step further, if God indeed does want us to be wealthy, is it our failure to live godly in Christ Jesus that prevents us from becoming wealthy? I'm asking because I want to be sure - because that's what it sounds like to me.

Andrew

21st February 2003, 01:50 AM

Andrew, a couple of questions for you.
First, if God wants us to be wealthy, then why doesn't He simply make it so? What is stopping us from becoming wealthy?

Simply because its a choice thing. God does not force us to do anything. If he's a God that "simply makes it so", then why wld he ask us so many times to ask for it? Check all those sciptures on asking. And it's like you are asking me:"If God wants all to be saved, why doesnt he just zap all of us and get us saved?"

So, its an up to us thing. The promises and blessings of God are there -- made possible only thru the death of Christ -- but its up to us to go find out about it, believe in it, and walk in it. That's up to us. There's no condemnation if you dont want it, but dont condemn others for wanting it. In fact, those who want it are actually honoring the work of Christ. If God paid such a high price to make these blessings possible, why insult him by saying no thanks?

Taking it a step further, if God indeed does want us to be wealthy, is it our failure to live godly in Christ Jesus that prevents us from becoming wealthy? I'm asking because I want to be sure - because that's what it sounds like to me.

That's where all the heated arguments arise. ITS NOT A SIN TO BE SICK OR POOR. It does not mean you are not a good Christian. It simply means you dont know what actually belongs to you as a joint heir of Christ and as a child of God, or even if you knew abt it, perhaps you're simply not interested or dont see the need. Again, the choice belongs to the Christian. But dont condemn others and say they are heretics for wanting the blessings.

And why wld God want a Christian to prosper. Again, as I've said many times, the nature of every father is to bless his children. You want the best for your kids dont you? If you had the means, I'm sure you'd want the best education for them, nice clothes, good food, a nice bed for them, nice toys etc etc. So why do you think God the Father doesnt want to do the same? He already said that earthly fathers, evil as they are, know how to give good gifts to their children, how much more your Heavenly Father! Why is that so hard to understnd this simple truth?

Secondly, the reason God blesses people financially is so that we can finance the spread of the Gospel. It's common sense that you need money (while IN THIS WORLD) to print Bibles, rent auditoriums, support ministries, build churches, build Bible Colleges, feed and clothe the poor, etc, etc. Now, wld you be able to do all this more effectively if you had $1000 in your bank or $1 million?

but you are still missing the point -- and that is that health and wealth is in the redemptive work of Christ. IOW, Christ did not just redeem us from sin but also from sickness and poverty. Until you can see that, you'll always question this topic.

nikolai_42

21st February 2003, 03:06 AM

Andrew

21st February 2003, 03:29 AM

Andrew,
Again, with the second question, are you saying that a failure to live godly in Christ, or a failure to walk in the promises of God will mean poverty and sickness? Will walking in the promises mean wealth and health? It seems like you almost answered that in your response, but didn't really finish it.

Proverbs says that if you dont work, sleep too much (ie lazy), are drunk often -- it leads to poverty. so yes, in that sense, failing to lead a Godly life (in this case work hard!) leads to poverty. The promises of God are many. Fo eg, honouring your parents leads to the blessing of long life. So if you want to live long, honour your parents. Tithing and offerings are also in God economic system. So if you want to prosper, you have to follow God's principles of sowing and reaping, receiving and giving. Failure to do so may or may not lead to poverty, for there are pagans who are rich who dont do these things.

Simply put, God has his principles and truths for us. If we follow them, it can only benefit us, if we dont, then of course, we are worse off in the long run.

But further to that is my thought that Christ did not want us to seek earthly wealth - He implored us to store up for ourselves treasures in heaven. The Old Testament says that the one who would be rich falls into "...many hurtful lusts...". Paul speaks of those who mind earthly things - saying "...their stomachs are their gods...". Nowhere in the bible do we see an encouragement of man to be rich. Yes, if we delight ourselves in the Lord then He certainly will give us the desires of our heart. But in the end, our delight in the Lord will bring us closer to Him and our desires will be Him. He will then give us the desires of our heart (more of Him) ... on and on until all we desire is Him.

I think you are still missing the point. The Gospel or Good News, includes salvation from sin as well as from poverty and sickness. To a man who is sick and dying, or poor and hungry, the Gospel is good news to him simply becos it says that God can and wants to heal him, clothe him, feed him and make him walk in divine health and never suffer lack again. That too any sensible man is certainly good news. I'm not talking about get rich quick schemes or lusting after money. Money is not the problem but man is. Man can use it to glorify God or to destroy themselves.
btw: the OT is full of extremely rich, yet Godly people. And why wld God say "i will pour out so much blessings you have no room to contain it" in Malachi if he didnt want us to prosper. What about Paul saying "I wish above all things that you prosper and be in health, even as your soul prospers."?

now let me ask u a simple question: "What is the curse of the Law?"

Budge

21st February 2003, 01:30 PM

Andrew, Are you rich?

Im curious.

Im working class. I am in the class where people cant afford computers except my brother built this one for me and I pay for hookup with ebay sales.

To have someones Christianity connected to their level of wealth is messed up. Reminds me of churches where people are into status and show up wearing the fanciest clothes.

Also, your entire post contradicts yourself. You talk about being poor and in bad health, yet you imply that it is heretical if God wants you to be in good health and not suffer lack. You really need to read your Bible.

No it doesnt. God is not my magic genie on my call; I may ask God for health and more money but God can say Yes or No. It is Gods choice.
You are perfoming witchcraft when you approach God as a genie with endless riches.

You obviously do not understnd the work of the cross and insult it.

I will have endless riches in heaven with Christ. You somehow think thats to happen on earth. Christ lived and died as a poor man.

Taking it a step further, if God indeed does want us to be wealthy, is it our failure to live godly in Christ Jesus that prevents us from becoming wealthy? I'm asking because I want to be sure - because that's what it sounds like to me.

So all Good Christians are rich Christians? Geez I guess my working class church is not keeping up then. They must be doing something wrong :rolleyes

I guess TV evangelists rolling in money must be the holiest of us all!

That's where all the heated arguments arise. ITS NOT A SIN TO BE SICK OR POOR. It does not mean you are not a good Christian. It simply means you dont know what actually belongs to you as a joint heir of Christ and as a child of God, or even if you knew abt it, perhaps you're simply not interested or dont see the need.

Everyone gets called home to the Lord sometime. Christ never promised a $80,000 a dollar year job and a mansion. Theres Christians now living on nothing that make even the poorest Christian in America look rich. How much has the New Age influenced your thinking...you sound like the HUman Potential movement--think and be rich except this time Christ or a false Christ is getting thrown into the mix.

The Prayer of Jabez and all this connection to riches via Christ is using a false Christ in witchcraft. Manipulating God to do your bidding and reward you with wordly blessings. God said do not be of this world. This is being taken up with the riches of this world and worldly success.

Again, as I've said many times, the nature of every father is to bless his children. You want the best for your kids dont you? If you had the means, I'm sure you'd want the best education for them, nice clothes, good food, a nice bed for them, nice toys etc etc. So why do you think God the Father doesnt want to do the same?

Christ never said I will make sure your bank accounts are full, I will give you a graduate education and a cruise to Tahiti. Christ offers riches IN HIMSELF! God will give us everything in heaven. But whatever He gives us will be HIs choice.

Secondly, the reason God blesses people financially is so that we can finance the spread of the Gospel. It's common sense that you need money (while IN THIS WORLD) to print Bibles, rent auditoriums, support ministries, build churches, build Bible Colleges, feed and clothe the poor, etc, etc. Now, wld you be able to do all this more effectively if you had $1000 in your bank or $1 million?

Greed and money actually destroy more ministries, Think Oral Roberts when he told the world hed die without a set amount of donations. Its not about making money. Sure money can help in getting word of God out there, But greed and love of money is something that leads people away from the Lord. Many missionaires and others will live poor so they have more to give others.

. IOW, Christ did not just redeem us from sin but also from sickness and poverty. Until you can see that, you'll always question this topic.

Every Christian dies. How do you explain that. You too will sicken one day. Will you think Christ has abandoned you? Do you expect to live forever in this physical body on this physical earth, then you truly have misunderstood the gospel.

Proverbs says that if you dont work, sleep too much (ie lazy), are drunk often -- it leads to poverty. so yes, in that sense, failing to lead a Godly life (in this case work hard!) leads to poverty. The promises of God are many. Fo eg, honouring your parents leads to the blessing of long life. So if you want to live long, honour your parents. Tithing and offerings are also in God economic system. So if you want to prosper, you have to follow God's principles of sowing and reaping, receiving and giving. Failure to do so may or may not lead to poverty, for there are pagans who are rich who dont do these things.

There are things that can help. But you equate wealth with goodness and that is scary in a society that considers itself a meritocracy and already abuses the poor by saying they are more morally deficient or lesser human beings. This fits more Hinduism and the caste system then Christianity and you still didnt answer my question about my wealthy atheist friend. She makes fun of God, --it hurts me to hear this stuff but she does do it but $200,000 just got added to her accounts.

Proverbs may have advice on taking responsiblity in life but there are many people that become poor through no fault of their own. Many sacrifice wealth to help others. I went for teaching and social work career, when I was healthy I knew there was less money in it but it was a concisous choice at the time.

This prosperity gospel stuff is scary to me. I actually think it is the MOST hereitical thing in Gods church.

You need to realize that earthly riches do not equal spiritual riches.

dignitized

21st February 2003, 02:18 PM

Yesterday at 04:52 AM Andrew said this in Post #49 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=664568#post664568)

That's becos you are pro-Catholic or Catholic. As far as many charismatic churches as well as this Forum are concerned, TBN/WOF is very much orthodox and accepted.

What is considered unorthodox though, among protestants in this protestant section, are the doctrines of the Catholics. So dont shoot yourself in the foot.

 

Andrew, come now. Even in Charismatic circles TBN is questionable. And is definitely unorthodox according to mainline protestant churches.

 

waterwizard

21st February 2003, 02:23 PM

Isaiah 55:8

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

 

God's idea of riches are not man's idea of riches.  We must seek His will and He will bless us according to His riches, not ours.

dignitized

21st February 2003, 04:10 PM

water: no no. God wants us to have expensive cars and fancy homes and gilded furniture and to wear Prada shoes and have Gucci handbags . . .  :( please . . . :rolleyes:

 

he wants us to be comfortable and soft.  HE doesn't want us to suffer in any way shape or form . . . . :confused:

nikolai_42

21st February 2003, 04:38 PM

Today at 02:29 AM Andrew said this in Post #59 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=666744#post666744)

now let me ask u a simple question: "What is the curse of the Law?"

 I'm not sure what this has to do with the question at hand. But the curse of the law is certain condemnation for it is apart from faith. Because no man is justified in the eyes of God by the law.

 How does that relate to the prosperity gospel?

Outspoken

21st February 2003, 08:54 PM

"How does that relate to the prosperity gospel?"

I would say that in my studies the majority of the "prosperity gospel's" teaching is wrong in that it 1. puts our faith being of a higher power then God thus making our will above his and 2. says that if you are poor then its from lack of faith. This is simply not true and if you read throughout christian history it shows that. The dominican order is one of the easiest ways to see that.

Andrew

21st February 2003, 10:13 PM

Hey guys look, if you cant believe prosperity and health is part of the Gospel then that's up to you. God's not gonna force it on you and neither will I.

I think I rather spend my time "arguing" or sharing with someone who may be genuinely curious to find out and who have a desire to not suffer lack and walk in health all the days of his life. Otherwise its just a waste of time and typing.

Andrew

21st February 2003, 10:45 PM

Ok, hopefully, this is my last post here (to nikolai 42), and just in case someone passes by and reads it and gets it and is blessed by it:

According to scripture, this is the curse of the Law:

Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

So the curse of the law is this: if you dont obey the Law fully, you'll be cursed.

Now, bear with me. My next question to you is this: What will we be cursed with? What are the curses levelled on man if he does not obey the Law fully?

Read Deu 28 for the listing of curses. Notice how there are many scriptures curses on poverty as well as sickness:

Deu 28
15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

poverty curses:

16 Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.
17 Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store. [eg your refrigerator is always empty]
18 Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep. [eg your business just aint getting the profits]
38 Thou shalt carry much seed out into the field, and shalt gather but little in; for the locust shall consume it. [you put in much effort and invest much, but reap little]
44 He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail. [you are always borrowing from others]

sickness curses:

59 Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.
60 Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee.
61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed. [in other words ALL dieseases are curses]
27 The LORD will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed.
35 The LORD shall smite thee in the knees, and in the legs, with a sore botch that cannot be healed, from the sole of thy foot unto the top of thy head.

(The listing on blessings are of cse the opposite -- ie health and prosperity and other things like not being barren.)

Now you know what the curse of the Law as defined by scripture above. Then read Galatians 3:13 which says that Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law through hanging on the tree, ie the cross:

Ga 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

What does that simply mean? It means Christ has redeemed us from all those curses you find in Deu 28 under the Law system! Now its not just lack and sickness, but the curses also include adultery (ie your spouse goes and sleeps with someone else), children going into rebellion, inability to conceive etc etc. -- all the bad things in life.

So can you begin to appreciate how much Christ has done for you? Can you see that healing and prosperity is part of the redeeming work of Christ, becos when Christ hung on that tree, he redeemed us from the curse of the Law, which means he redeemed us from all those lack and sickness curses you just read! So, can you understnd now what i mean when I say that healing and prosperity (and much more) is part of the redemptive work of Christ? Its part of the cross, there's no escaping this simple truth. I believe the Apostolic Movt also understnds this concept of Divine Exchanges.

Now this is just one aspect of it. Read the blessings in Deu 28 too. The blessings of abundance and health. Now if the OC people had all these blessings, do you think we in a superior NC covenant are worse off? think abt it. It is a MUCH MORE covenant! (Roms 5)

btw: anyone who honestly studies the curses and blessings in Deu 28 will never come to the conclusion that poverty and sickness can be a blessing. You'll never find poverty and lack listed by God as a blessing. And the sickness curse of v61 COVERS ALL dieseases, IOW there's no such thing as a sickness that's a blessing from God.

Ok. Take it or leave it. I'm outta here. :)