A few questions...

[ZooMom]

If I understand the rules correctly, I am allowed to post questions here not intended for debate? Yes? If I am mistaken, Moderators, please move this to the appropriate area. Thanks. :)

I had asked a few questions in another thread and since no-one there seems inclined to answer them, I was wondering if anyone else would like to talk with me about them. I have absolutely no intention of arguing or debating this issue, I really am just interested in sincere, honest reflections from my non-Catholic brothers and sisters. Ok, here goes. :)


1) How old do Protestants think that Mary was at the time of the Annunciation, and why?

2)How old do you think Joseph was at the time of his engagement to Mary, and why?

3)Do you believe that Mary was Joseph's first wife, and why?

4)Do you believe that the brothers and sisters of Christ mentioned in the Scriptures were younger than Christ, and why?


I really am very interested in your replies. :wave:


The Peace of Christ be with you all!

[Gabriel]

1) How old do Protestants think that Mary was at the time of the Annunciation, and why? I am under the impression that she was around 13 or so. I don't know why or when I was taught that.

2)How old do you think Joseph was at the time of his engagement to Mary, and why?
Very old, late 60s maybe. Same reason as above.

3)Do you believe that Mary was Joseph's first wife, and why?
No, again, sadly the same answer as above as to why.

4)Do you believe that the brothers and sisters of Christ mentioned in the Scriptures were younger than Christ, and why?
I never really thought about it. I guess I just assumed they were younger.

I'm sorry I couldn't give better answers. I see where you're going with this also. I wish I had more of an opinion on this so as to be more worth your while, but it doesn't concern me much either way. I never thought that Mary remained a virgin, but if shown biblical proof, I am willing to believe otherwise.

[ZooMom]

Thank you so much, Gabriel. :) Your answers are fine because they are honest. God bless you. I don't think I'm really *going* anywhere at all with it, but I am very curious about the 'other' view and the reasoning behind it. :) I never had anyone ask me these questions before I became Catholic, but I imagine that my answers would have been much the same as yours, except I would have put Joseph much closer to Mary in age.

I never thought that Mary remained a virgin, but if shown biblical proof, I am willing to believe otherwise.

Does that mean that you have biblical proof for the view that you currently hold? That is not meant to be a challenging question at all. Please, please take any question I ask as humble and sincere. I realize that this could get sour quickly if someone perceives my questions in a bad way.

Thank you again and Peace be with you. :)

[Gabriel]

Does that mean that you have biblical proof for the view that you currently hold?

Only the verse that says that Joseph did not know her until she gave birth to Jesus. But from the Greek laid out in the other similar thread, that may not be an accurate assumption.

[ZooMom]

Thanks. :) So would it be fair to say that your view on Mary's virginity isn't really a belief (as in doctrine), because of the lack of biblical proof, but rather just a personal opinion based on your own assumptions?

Would you mind telling me what denomination you belong to and if they have a specific doctrine regarding this? Thanks. :wave:

Peace.

[sbbqb7n16]

her viriginity comes from Lukes account where she asks Gabriel,

Luke_1:34 Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?"

[Gabriel]

Mary's virginity isn't really a belief (as in doctrine), because of the lack of biblical proof, but rather just a personal opinion based on your own assumptions?
Correct.

Would you mind telling me what denomination you belong to and if they have a specific doctrine regarding this? I am Presbyterian PCA, not to be confused with Presbyterian PCUSA. Very big difference. And, no, we do not have a specific doctrine concerning this.

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by sbbqb7n16
her viriginity comes from Lukes account where she asks Gabriel,

Luke_1:34 Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?"

We are referring to the belief that she remained a virgin after Jesus' birth.

[ZooMom]

Thanks, Gabriel :) , I really do appreciate your answers. And that I have managed to ask without offending you. :) (I didn't, did I?)


Hi, sbbqb7n16. :) Thank you for the verse. I think we all, Catholic and non-Catholic, agree on the fact of Mary's virginity before and during her pregnancy. Would you mind answering the questions in the OP? Just give your honest thoughts with whatever references support your view. I'd really like to see your replies. :wave:

[Gabriel]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ZooMom
Thanks, [b]Gabriel :) , I really do appreciate your answers. And that I have managed to ask without offending you. :) (I didn't, did I?)


[QUOTE] You didn't offend me. Don't be so timid. We won't bite you.;)

[ZooMom]

Originally posted by Gabriel
You didn't offend me. Don't be so timid. We won't bite you.;)

Whew! Well, that's a relief. :D

Seriously, I just really didn't want to give anyone cause to take exception to my questions, and flat type is such a miserable medium for communicating effectively because almost any attitude or nuance can be read into what you type. :) Thank goodness for smilies. :) :angel:

[hugoguttman]

Hi zoomom:
1) How old do Protestants think that Mary was at the time of the Annunciation, and why?

2)How old do you think Joseph was at the time of his engagement to Mary, and why?

3)Do you believe that Mary was Joseph's first wife, and why?

4)Do you believe that the brothers and sisters of Christ mentioned in the Scriptures were younger than Christ, and why?

1.- I dont know and daring to say some age... I will be speculating. I think she was at the perfect age to have children.
2.- I dont know, but sure he had a similar age than Maria.
3.- I dont know and I dont know why... What a questions!!! hahahahahahaha. :D
4.-I think this is the only question I can answer some accurate. 
The brothers and sisters of Jesus were younger than Him as Jesus was the first son of Maria, as she was virgin when she conceived our Lord. And the Scripture says Joseph DID NOT KNOW HER until and after Jesus´ birth.
Sorry for not being so helpful on this...
Pax.
Hugo.

[ZooMom]

Hi, hugo. :) Thank you for answering! :wave: Do you mind if I ask a few more questions with regards to your answers?

2.- I dont know, but sure he had a similar age than Maria.

How are you sure that his age was similar to Mary's? Is there something that gives you reason to believe that it was, or is it something that you've just always assumed?

4.-I think this is the only question I can answer some accurate.
The brothers and sisters of Jesus were younger than Him as Jesus was the first son of Maria, as she was virgin when she conceived our Lord. And the Scripture says Joseph DID NOT KNOW HER until and after Jesus´ birth.

Why do you think that the brothers and sisters of Jesus were Mary's children at all? I agree that if they were Mary's children that they would have to be younger than Christ, so what I am asking is do you have a reference for them being younger or for them being Mary's children. :)

Thanks again for answering and the Peace of Christ be with you. :wave:

[hugoguttman]

Zoomom:
How are you sure that his age was similar to Mary's? Is there something that gives you reason to believe that it was, or is it something that you've just always assumed?
mmmmm... it´s curious, that we read the Bible so many times and never ask ourselves about this kind of things. How old were Joseph...? How old were Maria...? What about the adolecent years of Jesus...? I think my answer to your new question is that I have just always assumed it. I can imagine the situation which I dont have any further reference as my mind tells me about. I can imagine Maria and Joseph like a couple of two young guys... I can not imagine Joseph older enough to be Maria´s father age... It´s just as my mind tells me about...

Why do you think that the brothers and sisters of Jesus were Mary's children at all? I agree that if they were Mary's children that they would have to be younger than Christ, so what I am asking is do you have a reference for them being younger or for them being Mary's children.
Well, if I consider that Jesus´brothers and sisters are Maria´s sons, they are younger than Jesus. Now, the Bible does not mention anything about any other Joseph´s marriages. But... maybe taking what is written in Mathew 1:19-20 gives me an idea about Joseph and I take it as a good man that could take me to an ASSUMPTION... He had never been married...
Well... those are my answers... very poor but...
Now, are you reading any J.J. Benitez book or something? His books, named Trojan Horse are some kind of very well speculative books. I have readed only one... the first. But there have been others named TH II, TH III and so... and he tries to speculate, with a touch of novel, those obscure moments that Bible does not talk about...
Pax.
Mbote. :wave:

[Dewjunkie]

Originally posted by ZooMom
1) How old do Protestants think that Mary was at the time of the Annunciation, and why?

Approx. 13, as this was the common age for young women to be betrothed in that culture at that time.   

2)How old do you think Joseph was at the time of his engagement to Mary, and why?

Approx. 30, as this was the age that Jewish men left home to begin their own lives.  Because the Bible doesn't portray Joseph as an established man, and he was able to flee to Bethlehem without pulling any roots, it is unlikely he was much older than this.   

3)Do you believe that Mary was Joseph's first wife, and why?

Yes, mainly because of the above support, but also because historians tend to believe that subsequent marriages in that time were to older women.  The young virgin was historically the first.   


4)Do you believe that the brothers and sisters of Christ mentioned in the Scriptures were younger than Christ, and why?

Yes, for the reasons stated above, they would have to be, regardless of maternal line.
 

[4Jesus]

Hello ZooMom :wave: ,

Your first three questions would probably only yield speculative answers.

I believe Jesus had younger siblings only because Matthew states that: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. Matthew 1:25

Clearly Joseph and Mary did not share a conjugal bed til after Jesus was born.

[ZooMom]

Thanks, hugo! :) Not poor answers at all. And no, I have not heard of the books you referenced, but I will try to find them if I can. :wave:

[ZooMom]

Originally posted by Dewjunkie
Approx. 13, as this was the common age for young women to be betrothed in that culture at that time.   

Thanks! I'm no historian, so could you post a reference for this so that I may look for myself? :)



Approx. 30, as this was the age that Jewish men left home to begin their own lives.  Because the Bible doesn't portray Joseph as an established man, and he was able to flee to Bethlehem without pulling any roots, it is unlikely he was much older than this.   

Again, is there a reference for the age information? I also was under the impression that Joseph was established as a carpenter before his engagement to Mary and that they went to Bethlehem for the census? :help:



Yes, mainly because of the above support, but also because historians tend to believe that subsequent marriages in that time were to older women.  The young virgin was historically the first.   

Reference? I really would like to read something about this. :)



Yes, for the reasons stated above, they would have to be, regardless of maternal line.
 

Well, that's a new thought! I have never heard it considered that Joseph may have had wives *after* Mary. :idea:

Thanks and Peace be with you! :)

[ZooMom]

Originally posted by 4Jesus
Hello ZooMom :wave: ,

Your first three questions would probably only yield speculative answers.

I believe Jesus had younger siblings only because Matthew states that: 

Clearly Joseph and Mary did not share a conjugal bed til after Jesus was born.


Hi, 4Jesus :wave:, and thanks for answering! The meaning of 'until' is being debated in the other thread in the debate forum. Have you seen it? What do you think?

Peace be with you. :)

[linda4jesus]

Originally posted by ZooMom


1) How old do Protestants think that Mary was at the time of the Annunciation, and why?

Mary was pledged to marry Joseph, she was probably between the age 13-15.

Matthew 1:18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: his mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.


2)How old do you think Joseph was at the time of his engagement to Mary, and why?

Joseph was older, my 'guess' around 25 or so.

Matthew 1: 9 Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.


3)Do you believe that Mary was Joseph's first wife, and why?


I believe that Mary was Joseph's first and only wife. He was able to uproot his family with no ties to leave and go to Egypt. Also, there is no reference to 'other' wives in the Word. As we have seen in the OT and NT, if there are other wives, they are referenced.....None are referenced for Joseph except Mary.


4)Do you believe that the brothers and sisters of Christ mentioned in the Scriptures were younger than Christ, and why?

In Matthew 1:24 we are told that Joseph 'had no union with Mary until she gave birth to a son'.

In Matthew 12:46-50, Jesus was speaking to a crowd when his mother and brothers came to speak to him. As stated below....the apostles were with him therefore can not be considered the brothers he was referring to.

Matthew 1:24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

Matthew 12: 46-50 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him.

Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."

He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?"

Pointing to his disciples

he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

[4Jesus]

Originally posted by linda4jesus
[B]


In Matthew 1:24 we are told that Joseph 'had no union with Mary until she gave birth to a son'.



What version of the Bible do you use? I use the KJV and Matt.1:24 in the KJV says that Mary gave birth to her "firstborn." 

[linda4jesus]

Hi 4Jesus,

I used the NIV. I use biblegateway to post scripture and it always defaults to NIV. I can post KJV.

[4Jesus]

Originally posted by ZooMom
Hi, 4Jesus :wave:, and thanks for answering! The meaning of 'until' is being debated in the other thread in the debate forum. Have you seen it? What do you think?

Peace be with you. :)

I looked around but since I am new I can't find the forum you are talking about. :help:

[ZooMom]

Originally posted by linda4jesus
Mary was pledged to marry Joseph, she was probably between the age 13-15.

Matthew 1:18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: his mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.




Joseph was older, my 'guess' around 25 or so.

Matthew 1: 9 Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.





I believe that Mary was Joseph's first and only wife. He was able to uproot his family with no ties to leave and go to Egypt. Also, there is no reference to 'other' wives in the Word. As we have seen in the OT and NT, if there are other wives, they are referenced.....None are referenced for Joseph except Mary.




In Matthew 1:24 we are told that Joseph 'had no union with Mary until she gave birth to a son'.

In Matthew 12:46-50, Jesus was speaking to a crowd when his mother and brothers came to speak to him. As stated below....the apostles were with him therefore can not be considered the brothers he was referring to.

Matthew 1:24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

Matthew 12: 46-50 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him.

Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."

He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?"

Pointing to his disciples

he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."


Thanks, Linda! :wave: Could you tell me why or how you derive ages from the Scriptures you gave me? Is there another source you reference?

Peace! :)

[linda4jesus]

ok, here's the KJV.

Matthew 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS

[ZooMom]

Originally posted by 4Jesus
I looked around but since I am new I can't find the forum you are talking about. :help:

Ack! Sorry! Go to the top of the page and click on 'Congregation', then go to Interdenominational Doctrinal Debate, then go to the thread titled 'A Simple Question about Mary's Virginity'. You might like to read through the whole thread. :)

[4Jesus]

Originally posted by ZooMom
Ack! Sorry! Go to the top of the page and click on 'Congregation', then go to Interdenominational Doctrinal Debate, then go to the thread titled 'A Simple Question about Mary's Virginity'. You might like to read through the whole thread. :)

Ookie Dokie! :cool:

[linda4jesus]

Originally posted by ZooMom
Thanks, Linda! :wave: Could you tell me why or how you derive ages from the Scriptures you gave me? Is there another source you reference?

Peace! :)

Hi ZooMom,

In doing research to answer your question, I came across the following information regarding Jewish customs in the first century; polygamy and the betrothal process.

Polygamy.....except for rare cases (priests), was not practiced in the first century among the Jews. Many scholars contend that polygamy all but disappeared by the time of Christ.

Betrothal and Marriage process

- first, a negotiation took place

- second, at the conclusion of the negotiation and the exchange of gifts (possibly sealing the covenant between the families), the couple were considered betrothed. The bride was introduced, and the covenant was sealed with a cup of wine

- third, the girl would normally be transferred to her husband's home

- fourth, the marriage was consummated

Steps two, three and four could occur over a short period of time, or they could be extended over years. If the girl was extremely young, the waiting period might be considerable.

The waiting period between betrothal and marriage was usually twelve months in the case of a virgin and three months in the case of a widow.
If a girl or woman was a slave or a captive taken in war, the first step was omitted and all that was necessary was physical consummation to make the person a concubine (Deut. 21:13).

It should be recognized that betrothal was much more binding than our contemporary custom of engagement. Betrothal was considered so binding that the woman is referred to as a wife (e.g., Deut. 28:30; Judges 14:15, 16, 20; 15:1; I. Sam., 19:11; II Sam. 3:14).

Apparently, physical consummation was thought to complete the marriage in the realm of personal relationship, just as the bride-gift was essential in the forging of the relationship. The woman was considered a wife regardless of whether the man and woman had sexual intercourse.

n2messiah.topcities.com/199.html

[ZooMom]

Great! Thanks, Linda. :) So, does Scripture indicate to you that the normal process for betrothal and marriage was followed in the case of Mary and Joseph?

The woman was considered a wife regardless of whether the man and woman had sexual intercourse.

Interesting observation! :)

I want to assure you, Linda, and anyone else who may be wondering, that I have no ulterior motives for asking these questions. We all know that certain Doctrines regarding Mary are a big deal to Catholics, and that many times when the issue comes up, Catholics tend to swing hard to the right while non-Catholics swing hard to the left, with both sides being so defensive that they can overrepresent their view. The result of that is usually that Catholics come off as over-emphasizing Mary to the point of seeming worship, while non-Catholics come off as under-emphasizing Mary to the point of seeming denigration. Neither is at all an accurate representation. As a Catholic, especially as a convert, I have made it my business to know exactly what the Church teaches regarding Mary and why. I have read the ECF and the Scriptures, the Councils and the Catechism, and I know exactly why I believe as I do.

However, before I became Catholic, I had certain assumptions regarding Mary and Joseph. These included that Mary was very young, Joseph probably close to her in age, young couple very much in love, etc...I don't know where or how I arrived at these assumptions because when I converted and started looking for the bible to confirm them, I was a bit astonished that it did not. And the other day, the thought just occured to me to ask if there is any foundation at all for what seems to be a pretty common list of assumptions across the board for non-Catholics regarding Mary and Joseph. And I call them assumptions only because I personally can find no concrete Scriptural evidence to support anything regarding my first four questions. I think it's a natural inclination to want to 'fill in the blanks', and I am just curious where the non-Catholic 'fill-ins' came from. :)

Did that make any kind of sense at all? :D I am so tired, and I keep losing the thread of my thoughts. :sorry:

Peace be with you all.

[Live4Jesus]

Kind of what bothers me about the 'virginity' of Mary issue, which truly is neither here nor there though the bible does say Joseph 'knew' her and in bible speak that does mean as his wife, completely... but also the catholic line is that she was 'untainted' from original sin as well... and sorry... there just isn't a single tad of biblical evidence for it, only the opposite, she was quite normal, a nice girl, her heart straight with God,, but otherwise quite normal. Just like her cousin Elizabeth, who also had a child sent from God, his name was John... the fact being that they were cousins... in similar circumstance and relationship with God.... sharing a common bloodline even, which was not 'untainted' from original sin... rather quite normal in every respect.

[Terri]

Originally posted by ZooMom
The result of that is usually that Catholics come off as over-emphasizing Mary to the point of seeming worship, while non-Catholics come off as under-emphasizing Mary to the point of seeming denigration. 

 

She is no big deal to me.  If she is being denigrated by my lack of interest in her and not mentioning her--well so be it. :rolleyes:

[JesusServant]

I don't understand why it's such a concern.  I respect Mary, but just because I don't go on and on about her doesn't mean I'm disrespectful.  Mary has nothing to do with my salvation or walk with God.  I can't wait to meet her one day but I hardly think she'll be mad at me for only following Christ and not praying to her.

[linda4jesus]

ZooMom,


1) How old do Protestants think that Mary was at the time of the Annunciation, and why?

2) How old do you think Joseph was at the time of his engagement to Mary, and why?

Since Mary and Joseph were Jewish and lived during the Talmudic time, they lived under the Jewish Law. In order to figure out how old Mary and Joseph would have been, we need to review the customs of the Jewish people during the Talmudic period.

A woman was emancipated from parental government upon reaching her majority at the age of twelve years and six months.
A man could posit a contract for matrimony at the age of eighteen.

3) Do you believe that Mary was Joseph's first wife, and why?

During the Talmudic period the Prophets discourage polygamy. In the prophetic history monogamy is presented as the ideal original state.

Monogamy was the rule among the Jews in Roman times, but there were notable exceptions. While the New Testament does not expressly prohibit, it discredits and discourages, polygamy). The tendency in Jewish social life was always towards monogamy.

With the above in mind, it would have been socially unacceptable for Joseph to have taken another wife or wives.

4) Do you believe that the brothers and sisters of Christ mentioned in the Scriptures were younger than Christ, and why?


Mark 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him. 4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

Jesus is talking about his own kin, mother, brothers and sisters. Also, since Mary, Joseph and Jesus lived during the Talmudic period, polygamy was not the social norm; so the idea or notion that Joseph had other wives goes against what the Law was during the time they were alive.

Source: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/index.jsp

[ZooMom]

Originally posted by Terri
 

She is no big deal to me.  If she is being denigrated by my lack of interest in her and not mentioning her--well so be it. :rolleyes:


Thank you, Terri. I realize that this is your position and that you are entitled to it. I did not intend for this thread to turn in this direction however, and since I am not permitted to debate here, we will just leave it at that. :)


I would like to leave a Scripture verse for your consideration, and ask that if it is construed as 'debate' that the Mods simply edit my post to remove it. :)

Luke 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45 Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!"


The Peace of Christ be with you. :wave:

[ZooMom]

Originally posted by JesusServant
I don't understand why it's such a concern.  I respect Mary, but just because I don't go on and on about her doesn't mean I'm disrespectful.  Mary has nothing to do with my salvation or walk with God.  I can't wait to meet her one day but I hardly think she'll be mad at me for only following Christ and not praying to her.

God bless you, JS. :) She won't be angry with you at all, because following only Christ is exactly what she wants us to do. :)

Luke 2:5 His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you."


:) Peace.

[sbbqb7n16]

Originally posted by ZooMom
4)Do you believe that the brothers and sisters of Christ mentioned in the Scriptures were younger than Christ, and why?

Here's a thought... Luke 2:44

"Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends."

Why not the mention of "among their children" ?? If you are a parent, isn't that the first place you look? However, if Jesus was the only child there at the time... you can't look among other children for him. You just look for him.

If Jesus had older brothers and sisters, where were they during all this?

[ZooMom]

Originally posted by linda4jesus
ZooMom,




Since Mary and Joseph were Jewish and lived during the Talmudic time, they lived under the Jewish Law. In order to figure out how old Mary and Joseph would have been, we need to review the customs of the Jewish people during the Talmudic period.

A woman was emancipated from parental government upon reaching her majority at the age of twelve years and six months.
A man could posit a contract for matrimony at the age of eighteen.

What about Temple virgins?



During the Talmudic period the Prophets discourage polygamy. In the prophetic history monogamy is presented as the ideal original state.

Monogamy was the rule among the Jews in Roman times, but there were notable exceptions. While the New Testament does not expressly prohibit, it discredits and discourages, polygamy). The tendency in Jewish social life was always towards monogamy.

With the above in mine, it would have been socially unacceptable for Joseph to have taken another wife or wives.

And if he was widowed?




Mark 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him. 4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

Jesus is talking about his own kin, mother, brothers and sisters. Also, since Mary, Joseph and Jesus lived during the Talmudic period, polygamy was not the social norm; so the idea or notion that Joseph had other wives goes against what the Law was during the time they were alive.

Source: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/index.jsp


Again, what about the possibility that Joseph was a widower? Is there a reason that you do not consider that a plausible scenario?

Thank you so much, Linda, for both the tone and content of your answers. :) That is exactly what I was hoping to see. God bless you.

Peace. :wave:

[ZooMom]

Originally posted by sbbqb7n16
Here's a thought... Luke 2:44

"Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends."

Why not the mention of "among their children" ?? If you are a parent, isn't that the first place you look? However, if Jesus was the only child there at the time... you can't look among other children for him. You just look for him.

If Jesus had older brothers and sisters, where were they during all this?

An excellent thought! And one that dovetails nicely with the Catholic Tradition. Jesus *would* have been the only child there, as Joseph's children were all believed to be grown. So I will ask you, if Jesus had *younger* brothers and sisters, where were they during all this?

:clap: Great question, sbb! Thank you! :)

[sbbqb7n16]

Additionally what about Matthew 2:13-14
"When the had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Jospeh in a dream. 'Get up take the childand his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him' So he got up took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt."

Where are the other children during all this? Did Joseph leave them somewhere while he took Mary and Jesus to Egypt?

[sbbqb7n16]

Originally posted by ZooMom
An excellent thought! And one that dovetails nicely with the Catholic Tradition. Jesus *would* have been the only child there, as Joseph's children were all believed to be grown. So I will ask you, if Jesus had *younger* brothers and sisters, where were they during all this?

Were his brothers old enough to be married? If so where are their wives? That would make them older than Mary

Where were the younger children? Probably at home with their mother?? That's where I'd be! :D

[sbbqb7n16]

Also many people (mainly Catholics) interpret "firstborn" through an Americanized view.

Women in that day were nothing. Firstborn was a term for the first child in the family of the male. That culture did not give enough respect for women to be considered. So when they spoke of firstborn, they spoke of firstborn in the family of the male. Am I correct?

 

Edited to make first scentence more suited to my intentions.

[Auntie]

Originally posted by ZooMom

The result of that is usually that Catholics come off as over-emphasizing Mary to the point of seeming worship, while non-Catholics come off as under-emphasizing Mary to the point of seeming denigration. Neither is at all an accurate representation.



ZooMom,

This is what Jesus had to say to those who praised Mary:

Luke 11:27
"And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed [is] the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked."

Luke 11:28
"But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it."

[linda4jesus]

Originally posted by ZooMom

What about Temple virgins?

Again, we have to go back and review the social norms during the Talmudic time.

Therapeutes had their class of aged women who led a holy life, and who were regarded as virgins because they would not marry a second time. These "virgin widows," "the pious women". On entering the order they had to take the vow of virginity—that is, that they would not marry again; wherefore they were to be of an age when remarrying was no longer thought of. Exceptionally young widows after a brief marriage were admitted when they had an "especial gift of widowhood," to be blessed.


And if he was widowed?

Looking at the social norms during the time of Mary and Joseph; every Israelite was obliged to redeem his first-born son thirty days after the latter's birth. The mother is exempt from this obligation. At the redemption the father of the child pronounces the blessing, "Blessed art thou . . . and commandeth us concerning the redemption of a son," and then also the blessing of "she-he." It was customary to prepare a feast in honor of the occasion, at which the ceremony is made impressive by a dialogue between the priest and the father of the child.

Luke tells us that Jesus was presented to the Lord within eight days of his birth. This wouldn't have occured if Jesus were not Joseph's first child.

In Luke 2 21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb. 22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord; 23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord) 24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.


Again, what about the possibility that Joseph was a widower? Is there a reason that you do not consider that a plausible scenario?

See Above

[ZooMom]

Originally posted by sbbqb7n16
Also many people (mainly Catholics) interpret "firstborn" through an Americanized view.

Which is?

Women in that day were nothing. Firstborn was a term for the first child in the family of the male. That culture did not give enough respect for women to be considered. So when they spoke of firstborn, they spoke of firstborn in the family of the male. Am I correct?

 

Edited to make first scentence more suited to my intentions.

Do you have a source for this? I find it difficult to beleive that Jewish society, even if their cultural practices differed from ours today, didn't honor and respect women. Even God's Law impels us to obey our father *and* our mother. And does Scripture reference Christ as the firstborn of Joseph or of Mary?

Keep the thoughts coming! :wave:

[linda4jesus]

Sorry about that, meant to post it.....but forgot.

Source: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/index.jsp

[ZooMom]

Originally posted by Auntie
ZooMom,

This is what Jesus had to say to those who praised Mary:

Luke 11:27
"And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed [is] the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked."

Luke 11:28
"But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it."

Hi, Auntie. :wave: Please consider that Christ was not rebuking the woman for praising Mary, but rather redirecting her praise to those attributes of Mary that were truly deserving of praise. IOW, her reception of God's word and her obedience to it. :)

Peace be with you. :)

[ZooMom]

Originally posted by linda4jesus
Again, we have to go back and review the social norms during the Talmudic time.

Therapeutes had their class of aged women who led a holy life, and who were regarded as virgins because they would not marry a second time. These "virgin widows," "the pious women". On entering the order they had to take the vow of virginity—that is, that they would not marry again; wherefore they were to be of an age when remarrying was no longer thought of. Exceptionally young widows after a brief marriage were admitted when they had an "especial gift of widowhood," to be blessed.

So, there were no young Temple virgins, or should I say that it was not the norm for Temple virgins to be young girls? The Catholic Tradition tells us that Mary entered the Temple at a very young age, and that when she reached her womanhood, the preists of the Temple sought a husband, or more accurately a caretaker, for Mary so that her monthly courses would not defile the Temple. Were the older women past their courses so that this was not a problem? Enjoying this info very much. :) Thank you.




Looking at the social norms during the time of Mary and Joseph; every Israelite was obliged to redeem his first-born son thirty days after the latter's birth. The mother is exempt from this obligation. At the redemption the father of the child pronounces the blessing, "Blessed art thou . . . and commandeth us concerning the redemption of a son," and then also the blessing of "she-he." It was customary to prepare a feast in honor of the occasion, at which the ceremony is made impressive by a dialogue between the priest and the father of the child.

Luke tells us that Jesus was presented to the Lord within eight days of his birth. This wouldn't have occured if Jesus were not Joseph's first child.

Ok, so a 'first-born' was presented 30 days after birth and subsequent children presented 8 days? Do you know the reason for this?


Peace. :)

[linda4jesus]

Originally posted by ZooMom
[B]So, there were no young Temple virgins, or should I say that it was not the norm for Temple virgins to be young girls? The Catholic Tradition tells us that Mary entered the Temple at a very young age, and that when she reached her womanhood, the preists of the Temple sought a husband, or more accurately a caretaker, for Mary so that her monthly courses would not defile the Temple. Were the older women past their courses so that this was not a problem?

I know that Catholic tradition tells Catholics that Mary entered a temple at a very young age. I do not hold to this theory. I believe the Catholic Church had an agenda in presenting this theory, the agenda was to elevate Mary to a higher rank then she actually was. Women were considered property of their father and husband. They had no rights whatsoever.

The word virgin in that time period meant any female who chose not to have sexual relations again.

Ok, so a 'first-born' was presented 30 days after birth and subsequent children presented 8 days? Do you know the reason for this?

The first born had to be presented WITHIN 30 days after birth. Jesus was presented in 8 days. Therefore he was presented with the 30 day window according to the Law. Subsequent children were not presented; only the first born of the father.

I am not getting this information from a protestant web site, I'm using a Jewish history site.

Also, ZooMom....just because the Catholic Church says it's true....doesn't necessarily mean it is so.

[Auntie]

Originally posted by ZooMom
Hi, Auntie. :wave: Please consider that Christ was not rebuking the woman for praising Mary, but rather redirecting her praise to those attributes of Mary that were truly deserving of praise. IOW, her reception of God's word and her obedience to it. :)

Peace be with you. :)


Hi to you too, ZooMom.:) I don't think Jesus was rebuking the woman, but rather, correcting her about WHO the blessed are. Jesus says, "blessed are THEY that hear the word of God, and keep it." The "blessed" are ALL of us, who hear the word of God and keep it.

The woman was expressing her feelings of praise for Mary alone. Jesus answered her by taking the focus off Mary, and directed our focus on the Word of God.

[ZooMom]

Originally posted by linda4jesus
I know that Catholic tradition tells Catholics that Mary entered a temple at a very young age. I do not hold to this theory. I believe the Catholic Church had an agenda in presenting this theory, the agenda was to elevate Mary to a higher rank then she actually was.

Ah! Can you tell me why you believe that? And, aside from the Catholic agenda theory, why you think that Mary entering the Temple at a young age is not a plausible theory.

Women were considered property of their father and husband. They had no rights whatsoever.

I'm sorry, I don't see the correlation. :help:

The word virgin in that time period meant any female who chose not to have sexual relations again.

But, if they had no rights, how could they be allowed to choose this for themselves? Wouldn't a male relative have the authority to do that?



The first born had to be presented WITHIN 30 days after birth. Jesus was presented in 8 days. Therefore he was presented with the 30 day window according to the Law. Subsequent children were not presented; only the first born of the father.

Oh, I see. So you are using this to support the belief that Jesus was the first-born of *Joseph*. I get it now. :) Nice point. I'd like for you to check out this site, http://www.beingjewish.com/cycle/pidyan.html . Please get back to me with your thoughts on how this site addresses what you just told me. :)

I am not getting this information from a protestant web site, I'm using a Jewish history site. And I do appreciate that. But I have no objections to whatever site you want to use that you feel is objective and accurate. :)

Also, ZooMom....just because the Catholic Church says it's true....doesn't necessarily mean it is so.

Oh, I know. I don't take anything at face value. :) I just haven't yet found cause to doubt her after almost three years of researching. That isn't to say that there aren't other views out there that aren't plausible, your own views show that you have given the matter attentive thought and research.

Peace be with you!

[ZooMom]

Originally posted by Auntie
Hi to you too, ZooMom.:) I don't think Jesus was rebuking the woman, but rather, correcting her about WHO the blessed are. Jesus says, "blessed are THEY that hear the word of God, and keep it." The "blessed" are ALL of us, who hear the word of God and keep it.

And Mary was definitely one of those. :)

The woman was expressing her feelings of praise for Mary alone. Jesus answered her by taking the focus off Mary, and directed our focus on the Word of God.

And I will maintain that Jesus merely shifted the woman's focus from common attributes to Godly ones, and that this doesn't take the focus from Mary at all, but merely lets us see her in a clearer light. As one who heard the word of God and kept it. Would that the same could be said of me with such conviction. :)

I think I'm skirting the edges of a debate with my answers to this, so I will say no more on this particular verse. God bless you, Auntie. :)

Peace!

[ZooMom]

edit...not quote...edit...not quote...


:rolleyes: :D

[linda4jesus]

Originally posted by linda4jesus
I know that Catholic tradition tells Catholics that Mary entered a temple at a very young age. I do not hold to this theory. I believe the Catholic Church had an agenda in presenting this theory, the agenda was to elevate Mary to a higher rank then she actually was.

Originally posted by ZooMom
Ah! Can you tell me why you believe that? And, aside from the Catholic agenda theory, why you think that Mary entering the Temple at a young age is not a plausible theory.

I don't hold that theory as plausible because she would have been under the government of her father at that age. Her marriage to Jospeh had probably been arranged since birth.


Originally posted by linda4jesus
The word virgin in that time period meant any female who chose not to have sexual relations again.

Originally posted by ZooMom
But, if they had no rights, how could they be allowed to choose this for themselves? Wouldn't a male relative have the authority to do that?

Women who became widows during this time didn't have a whole lot of options, they either remarried or became 'virgins' and lived the rest of their lives serving God in an order somewhere. Edited to add, or became prostitutes...


Originally posted by linda4jesus
The first born had to be presented WITHIN 30 days after birth. Jesus was presented in 8 days. Therefore he was presented with the 30 day window according to the Law. Subsequent children were not presented; only the first born of the father.


Originally posted by ZooMom
Oh, I see. So you are using this to support the belief that Jesus was the first-born of *Joseph*. I get it now. Nice point. I'd like for you to check out this site, http://www.beingjewish.com/cycle/pidyan.html . Please get back to me with your thoughts on how this site addresses what you just told me.

Great site ZooMom, thanks!

I found the following on the website that you referred me to about why only boy children were 'redeemed' and who were to redeem them.

"Therefore, only boy children were in any danger at all from that particular Plague, and thus they were saved by the Redemption of the Firstborn that Hashem commanded their fathers to perform".

Luke tells us that Jesus was presented to the Lord within eight days of his birth by Joseph.

[ZooMom]

Originally posted by linda4jesus
I don't hold that theory as plausible because she would have been under the government of her father at that age. Her marriage to Jospeh had probably been arranged since birth.

Interesting! So, you don't think it likely that her father could have had her dedicated to the Temple as a child?



Women who became widows during this time didn't have a whole lot of options, they either remarried or became 'virgins' and lived the rest of their lives serving God in an order somewhere. Edited to add, or became prostitutes...

And did they do this of their own choice or at the direction of a male relative? I just thought of something! This could be a very good point on the whole 'Perpetual Virginity' topic! I think we are pretty certain that Mary didn't remarry or become a prostitute ( :o ), so under the Jewish definition of 'virgin' she could very well have remained a 'virgin' for the remainder of her life, even if you don't subscribe to the Catholic position. Cool! :)



Great site ZooMom, thanks!

You're welcome. :)

I found the following on the website that you referred me to about why only boy children were 'redeemed' and who were to redeem them.

"Therefore, only boy children were in any danger at all from that particular Plague, and thus they were saved by the Redemption of the Firstborn that Hashem commanded their fathers to perform".

Luke tells us that Jesus was presented to the Lord within eight days of his birth by Joseph.

Yes, the firstborn are to be 'redeemed' by the Jewish father. But what I thought was interesting is that the 'first-born' status is conveyed by the *mother*. And I was curious as to how that information affected your position of Jesus being the first-born of *Joseph*. :)

[linda4jesus]

Originally posted by ZooMom
Interesting! So, you don't think it likely that her father could have had her dedicated to the Temple as a child?

I don't think so.


And did they do this of their own choice or at the direction of a male relative? I just thought of something! This could be a very good point on the whole 'Perpetual Virginity' topic! I think we are pretty certain that Mary didn't remarry or become a prostitute ( :o ), so under the Jewish definition of 'virgin' she could very well have remained a 'virgin' for the remainder of her life, even if you don't subscribe to the Catholic position. Cool! :)

Yep.....even though they weren't 'virgins' (as we think) she could have been a virgin under the Jewish definition.


Yes, the firstborn are to be 'redeemed' by the Jewish father. But what I thought was interesting is that the 'first-born' status is conveyed by the *mother*. And I was curious as to how that information affected your position of Jesus being the first-born of *Joseph*. :)

Jewish law has always been that you have to be born of a Jewish mother in order to be considered Jewish. I believe that Jesus was Joseph's first born as well.

This has really been interesting, I've learned alot about Jewish history while doing my research. Thanks for that site again, it has alot of great info on it.:)

[nodrog]

1) How old do Protestants think that Mary was at the time of the Annunciation, and why? --- Old enough to have a baby and young enough not to already have one. My quess would be between 14 to 18

2)How old do you think Joseph was at the time of his engagement to Mary, and why? --- No idea.

3)Do you believe that Mary was Joseph's first wife, and why?---No idea.

4)Do you believe that the brothers and sisters of Christ mentioned in the Scriptures were younger than Christ, and why? --- I believe they were his younger siblings.  Mary and Joe were married . God joins couples in marrage and sexual relations are an important part of a normal healthy marriage.  I don't think it would be normal, heathy or very fair to Joseph for Mary to have remained a virgin. Something that out of the ordinary would have been mentioned in at least one of the Gospels. Instead we there are referance to siblings with no explaination that they were half brothers and sisters.

Hope that helps. :)

[nodrog]

Women who became widows during this time didn't have a whole lot of options, they either remarried or became 'virgins' and lived the rest of their lives serving God in an order somewhere. Edited to add, or became prostitutes... Interesting theory. :(

Joe was alive long enough to take Mary and Jesus to Egypt for a few years. Then they made a trip to Jerusalem when Jesus got left behind and they found him in the temple. Joseph was alive at least long enough to teach Jesus the carpentry trade.  Probably about 12 years that we know of ??  I would say plenty of opportunity for Joseph and Mary to have a average sized family.

 

[ZooMom]

Originally posted by linda4jesus
I don't think so.

Why?


Jewish law has always been that you have to be born of a Jewish mother in order to be considered Jewish. I believe that Jesus was Joseph's first born as well.

Why?


:D I'm starting to sound like my 3 yr old! :D Tell me if it's as frustrating to you as it is to me. :) I know that you've already given me an answer for part of this, but I would really like for you to dig a bit deeper. I guess I'm looking for the 'whole story'.

This has really been interesting, I've learned alot about Jewish history while doing my research. Thanks for that site again, it has alot of great info on it.:)

I'm enjoying it too. :) I'm so glad that we've been able to discuss this with patience and kindness.

Peace!

[ZooMom]

Originally posted by nodrog
1) How old do Protestants think that Mary was at the time of the Annunciation, and why? --- Old enough to have a baby and young enough not to already have one. My quess would be between 14 to 18

Good enough. :)

2)How old do you think Joseph was at the time of his engagement to Mary, and why? --- No idea.

None? Not even a mental picture or a hazarded guess?

3)Do you believe that Mary was Joseph's first wife, and why?---No idea.

Does that mean that you are open to the idea that Joseph could have been a widower with grown children at the time of his engagement to Mary?

4)Do you believe that the brothers and sisters of Christ mentioned in the Scriptures were younger than Christ, and why? --- I believe they were his younger siblings.  Mary and Joe were married . God joins couples in marrage and sexual relations are an important part of a normal healthy marriage.  I don't think it would be normal, heathy or very fair to Joseph for Mary to have remained a virgin. Something that out of the ordinary would have been mentioned in at least one of the Gospels. Instead we there are referance to siblings with no explaination that they were half brothers and sisters.

Fair enough. Can you tell me why you think that Mary and Joseph's marriage was normal? :)


Thanks for the answers! Peace be with you. :)

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by sbbqb7n16
Here's a thought... Luke 2:44

"Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends."

Why not the mention of "among their children" ?? If you are a parent, isn't that the first place you look? However, if Jesus was the only child there at the time... you can't look among other children for him. You just look for him.

If Jesus had older brothers and sisters, where were they during all this?

You know its occured to me from time to time... if Mary did not have other young ones to preoccupy her, chances are pretty slim she would also not have overlooked her one and only son Jesus, and the fact that he was missing from the crew... something peroccupied her to overlook his presence that day, and if any of you are mothers, well you should also know that your children are the closet thing to your heart... my feeling is that the brothers and sisters mentioned are very much Mary and Joseph's own... no mention of them is made during the filght to Egypt either, so they had to come afterward, neither is any mention of them made at Jesus' birth in Bethlehem. And something peroccupied Mary when the forgot him at the temple, the only thing I know of that can draw a mothers attention away from her oldest child, is a younger one or two as the case may be... just a thought...

[ZooMom]

Originally posted by Live4Jesus
You know its occured to me from time to time... if Mary did not have other young ones to preoccupy her, chances are pretty slim she would also not have overlooked her one and only son Jesus, and the fact that he was missing from the crew... something peroccupied her to overlook his presence that day, and if any of you are mothers, well you should also know that your children are the closet thing to your heart... my feeling is that the brothers and sisters mentioned are very much Mary and Joseph's own... no mention of them is made during the filght to Egypt either, so they had to come afterward, neither is any mention of them made at Jesus' birth in Bethlehem. And something peroccupied Mary when the forgot him at the temple, the only thing I know of that can draw a mothers attention away from her oldest child, is a younger one or two as the case may be... just a thought...

In many cases I would agree with that. Children have gone missing however, while their moms stand engrossed in a sale rack at WalMart. If Mary and Joseph were traveling in a caravan of their relatives and friends, I imagine that Mary had her own set of duties to see to re: packing, etc...
Christ was also 12 years old, more than old enough to be 'turned loose' so to speak, and be trusted to remain nearby while amusing Himself or seeing to His own chores. Do you not think it a possibility that no 'children' are mentioned because the children of Joseph were already grown and not 'children' anymore? :) The Scriptures never mention the 'children' of Mary, and while they do mention 'brothers and sisters' of Jesus, He is always refered to as 'the son of Mary'. Just a few thoughts that I would like to see your take on. :)

Peace be with you! :wave:

[Miss Shelby]

You know its occured to me from time to time... if Mary did not have other young ones to preoccupy her, chances are pretty slim she would also not have overlooked her one and only son Jesus, and the fact that he was missing from the crew... something peroccupied her to overlook his presence that day, and if any of you are mothers, well you should also know that your children are the closet thing to your heart... my feeling is that the brothers and sisters mentioned are very much Mary and Joseph's own... no mention of them is made during the filght to Egypt either, so they had to come afterward, neither is any mention of them made at Jesus' birth in Bethlehem. And something peroccupied Mary when the forgot him at the temple, the only thing I know of that can draw a mothers attention away from her oldest child, is a younger one or two as the case may be... just a thought...

I would be able to see your point if it were likely that it was just Mary and Joseph and Jesus on a donkey... but that isn't the way they traveled. They traveled in groups. He was also an adolescent and probably knew when the crew was leaving. Also, we don't know exactly when they discovered that he wasn't there. When I consider this scenario, as a mother I cannot imagine the panic she must have felt. But that was a different day and age.

Michelle

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by ZooMom
In many cases I would agree with that. Children have gone missing however, while their moms stand engrossed in a sale rack at WalMart. If Mary and Joseph were traveling in a caravan of their relatives and friends, I imagine that Mary had her own set of duties to see to re: packing, etc...
Christ was also 12 years old, more than old enough to be 'turned loose' so to speak, and be trusted to remain nearby while amusing Himself or seeing to His own chores. Do you not think it a possibility that no 'children' are mentioned because the children of Joseph were already grown and not 'children' anymore? :) The Scriptures never mention the 'children' of Mary, and while they do mention 'brothers and sisters' of Jesus, He is always refered to as 'the son of Mary'. Just a few thoughts that I would like to see your take on. :)

Peace be with you! :wave:

:wave:

No, because of the way that the Jews were so meticulous in their accounting of geneology i really think it would have been mentioned somewhere... like where the geneology of Joseph is given a couple times, it would have said joseph the father of ''da da da'.. whoever in there..

I've read lot of the different versions of this stuff, books you know, indeed it is a confusing issue... there is some truth to the way the bible denotes 'brethren' as cousins... thing is Mary only had one cousin that we know of, which was elizabeth, and the only son we know of from her is John the baptist...

Here this passage clearly separates 'brethren' from disciples for what its worth:

John 2:12 After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.

It's not likely Mary was at walmart or anything like that either, even so she wouldn't have overlooked her son without a very very good reason... shopping doesn't cut it for me... though of course one time when shopping for sheets which were pleasantly on sale when kmart went down last year I got so into it I missed picking up my own daughter at school for 20 minutes :eek: but still only 20 minutes late I was... and boy oh boy did I drive quickly home!!! pulling my hair as I went...

and actually if she were shopping, she would have gotten something for her only son indeed, and been looking for him to show him... no not shopping...

[Andrew]

Just to add something that came to mind for what it's worth:

I believe Joseph obeyed fully what the angel told him to do -- to take Mary as his wife, not just before Jesus was born, but even after that. ie they did what husbands and wives do after their obligations were fulfilled.

20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

[Live4Jesus]

ZooMom, Mary is mentioned as the mother of other children in quite a few places, it's just that all of christianity doesn't accept it so it's left up in the air I guess.

like here:
Matthew 13:55 - Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

that one is pretty direct, stated by the pharisees i think, to show that he came from a normal family. Why would they have mentioned cousins there it would have worked against them no? John the baptist isn't in there if they did intend that.

Matthew 27:56 - Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children.

Mark 15:40 - There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;

Mark 15:47 - And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where he was laid.

Mark 16:1 - And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

Then after the crucifixion, one of those Marys definitly has to be mom,,, she would have been one of the first there obviusly, her son... and she is always mentioned as someones' mother far as i can tell.

I don't know the fact that it's argued is really the only thing that seems to set a precedent far as I can tell, if we all read the scripture without the influence of any churches ideas whatsoever we would all probably come to the conclusion from the info given that Mary was the mother of James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas as well as Jesus because thats what the bible says. I mean if we read it as a true history book we would draw a completely different conclusion than the Mary 'virgin forever' theory because of whats written there.

[Auntie]

Originally posted by ZooMom
And Mary was definitely one of those. :)



Most definitely!


Originally posted by ZooMom

And I will maintain that Jesus merely shifted the woman's focus from common attributes to Godly ones, and that this doesn't take the focus from Mary at all, but merely lets us see her in a clearer light. As one who heard the word of God and kept it. Would that the same could be said of me with such conviction. :)

I think I'm skirting the edges of a debate with my answers to this, so I will say no more on this particular verse. God bless you, Auntie. :)

Peace!


You're a sweetheart, ZooMom.:hug: I wasn't really trying to debate, but explain why non-Catholics seem to underemphasize Mary. We feel like Jesus always points to God, the same way that Mary always points to Jesus.

God bless you too, my beloved ZooMomma!:wave:

[Andrew]

Good points Live4Jesus, and I wld use your same reasoning for the "until" arguments. :)

[nodrog]

Does that mean that you are open to the idea that Joseph could have been a widower with grown children at the time of his engagement to Mary?  It's possible.

[sklippstein]

ZooMom.......i read through this thread last night, this has been a great thread. Nice to see everyone get along even though opinions differ!

[ZooMom]

Yesterday at 11:17 PM Live4Jesus said this in Post #65 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=643444#post643444)

ZooMom, Mary is mentioned as the mother of other children in quite a few places, it's just that all of christianity doesn't accept it so it's left up in the air I guess.

like here:
Matthew 13:55 - Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

that one is pretty direct, stated by the pharisees i think, to show that he came from a normal family. Why would they have mentioned cousins there it would have worked against them no? John the baptist isn't in there if they did intend that.

If the Pharisees thought that Joseph was Jesus' father, wouldn't it be a natural assumption on their part to also call any children of Joseph, older or younger, brothers and sisters of Jesus?

Matthew 27:56 - Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children.

Mark 15:40 - There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;

Mark 15:47 - And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where he was laid.

Mark 16:1 - And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

Then after the crucifixion, one of those Marys definitly has to be mom,,, she would have been one of the first there obviusly, her son... and she is always mentioned as someones' mother far as i can tell.

Do you have any thoughts about who the 'other Mary' might be that Mark references, and if this Mary and 'the mother of James, Joses, etc...' are one and the same? Lots of Mary's in the Scriptures, Mary Magdalene, Mary the wife of Clopas, Mary the mother of Zebedee's sons, Mary the mother of Salome,...It seems that the only way that they could keep them straight was to name them with their primary affiliation. I believe that Jesus was Mary's, and that anytime she is mentioned in the Bible it is direct relation to Him. :)

[qutoe]I don't know the fact that it's argued is really the only thing that seems to set a precedent far as I can tell, if we all read the scripture without the influence of any churches ideas whatsoever we would all probably come to the conclusion from the info given that Mary was the mother of James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas as well as Jesus because thats what the bible says. I mean if we read it as a true history book we would draw a completely different conclusion than the Mary 'virgin forever' theory because of whats written there.

[/QUOTE]

I can see very well how someone might come to exactly that conclusion. :)


Peace be with you. :)

[ZooMom]

Today at 12:15 AM Auntie said this in Post #66 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=643586#post643586)

Most definitely!





You're a sweetheart, ZooMom.:hug: I wasn't really trying to debate, but explain why non-Catholics seem to underemphasize Mary. We feel like Jesus always points to God, the same way that Mary always points to Jesus.

God bless you too, my beloved ZooMomma!:wave:




:o Awww. Thanks! :hug: And I think that we are in agreement! :)


May the peace of our Lord, Jesus Christ, be with you!

[ZooMom]

Today at 07:26 AM nodrog said this in Post #68 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=644016#post644016)

  It's possible.



:) Excellent use of word conservation, Gordon. God bless you. :)



Peace!

[ZooMom]

Today at 08:29 AM sklippstein said this in Post #69 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=644065#post644065)

ZooMom.......i read through this thread last night, this has been a great thread. Nice to see everyone get along even though opinions differ!



Hi, sklipp! :wave: Thanks! I think it's going very well.


:angel:


Peace! :)

[Live4Jesus]

Yesterday at 06:57 AM Andrew said this in Post #67 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=643782#post643782)

Good points Live4Jesus, and I wld use your same reasoning for the "until" arguments. :)



Yup.

[Live4Jesus]

[i]Yesterday at 05:15 AM Auntie said this in Post #66 I wasn't really trying to debate, but explain why non-Catholics seem to underemphasize Mary. We feel like Jesus always points to God, the same way that Mary always points to Jesus.





I'm not sure other denoms actually 'underemphasize' Mary, it just that we don't overemphasize her either... Mary is Jesus' mother... I am pretty sure even Gabriel said all generations would call her blessed, and she is... she was chosen of God to be the earthly mother of his son... but their have been other people chosen of God who also performed mighty feats for God, Moses for instance... there have been quiet a few.

God can work his miracles out of a rock... in this case he needed a very normal and very clean young lady, whom Mary proved to be. Likewise her cousin Elizabeth was also chosen at the same time, in the same way, to bear another child of God, John. We all know from the bible that Elizabeth was way past the age of childbearing so her child is also a miracle birth... from God himself.

We do think Mary was special, and quite... she just shouldn't be 'served' in competition with God... shrines etc shouldn't be built to her all that, its not good...

Notice how when Peter and the others saw the spirit of Moses and Elijah with Jesus in the mount of Olives... they wanted to buld a shrine... it never happened, Jesus didn't want it... Jesus said, worhip God pray to your Father in heaven. he never mixed anything with it, never.

I think most of us non-caths feel we should use Jesus' words and examples as the first precedent, though later apostles may have led lives that are worthy of example, they still are not Jesus, who singularly had/has a extra special relationship with our Father in heaven.

There isn't a single note in the bible stating mary had anything near that relationship, only odd items that would rather deter from it... like when she came with Jesus' brothers to try to stop him from preaching... and other places. Its clear from a few passages that even she did not fully understand Him until after the resurrection... for a reason, she did not know God like He did. Her salvation was dependent upon her son, God's son Jesus. Just like ours is today... so because of all that building shrines, sayng prayers too, making requests of, her soul... may not be entirely appropiate.

But we do respect her very much.

[MikeMcK]

If I understand the rules correctly, I am allowed to post questions here not intended for debate? Yes? If I am mistaken, Moderators, please move this to the appropriate area. Thanks. :)

I had asked a few questions in another thread and since no-one there seems inclined to answer them, I was wondering if anyone else would like to talk with me about them. I have absolutely no intention of arguing or debating this issue, I really am just interested in sincere, honest reflections from my non-Catholic brothers and sisters. Ok, here goes. :)


1) How old do Protestants think that Mary was at the time of the Annunciation, and why?
Don't know.

2)How old do you think Joseph was at the time of his engagement to Mary, and why?
Don't know.

3)Do you believe that Mary was Joseph's first wife, and why?
Don't know. I assume so since the Bible doesn't mention a previous wife.

4)Do you believe that the brothers and sisters of Christ mentioned in the Scriptures were younger than Christ, and why?
If Mary was a virgin when Christ was concieved, then they would have to be younger.

The Peace of Christ be with you all!
And with you, also.