:scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:

[Michie]

I have heard that hypnosis is dangerous.

Can produce false memories, etc.

But I have also heard from the Christian's perspective that going under hypnosis can invite unwanted spirits.

How can this be possible?

I've heard it said that a Christian cannot be possessed also.

Is there really anything to this hypnosis thing anyway?

:scratch:

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[ZooMom]

Hi, Michie! :wave: :)

I don't know anything about hypnosis, I just wanted to say 'hi'. :)

[Michie]

Hi ya Zoomom! :)

[Andrew]

i think its simply cos hypnosis can mess up your mind and that's one place demons like to try to control. dont know abt you but never want anyone messing with my mind, even if its by a qualified doc.

[Pray4Isrel]

As Christians we can not be possessed but we can be oppressed.
I wouldn't give the Enemy any foothold...

[Rafael]

I agree. Prayer and fasting in supplication before the Lord would probably clear out many an asylum.

[Live4Jesus]

Sometimes we fool ourselves into thinking we are what our mind tells us we are... and we can allow our minds to convince us of many strange things...

Hypnosis is one of those areas that gets into mind control/submission to another, the hypnotist in this case.

Its kind of like trying to get healed by going to a psychic and having her lay hands on you...

Only someone who didn't believe in God as a reality would go for hypnosis, which in itself says, 'the problem is in my mind' and negates the possibility that God is control. So to say a Christian would get hypnotised, well what kind of Christian.

Any type of repetitive chanting, incantation type stuff, trancendental type meditation, as a way of seeking God, is along these lines... putting oneself into a formula approach to God... and does open the door instead to the enemy, who will take any opportunity to play god... by allowing or enabling the spriits within a person to take hold of the forefront... instead of being bound below. Speaking to the subconscious... which many times can be full of more evil than good. If it were not so, people would not have nightmares. The very moment you begin to even consider something like hypnosis as a 'cure' the devil knows that you do not know God. its is right then an opportunity for himself. And he is very shrewd and adept at these matters. hes been around a long time playing with peoples' heads/emotions, he knows every trick.

Always remember, the devil mixes truth with his lies, not everything he does is out and out 'bad' but you have to look at the bigger picture, the long haul, not just a daily view of things... and where do all these things lead.

God is quite real, you do not have to seek nor should you seek Him through your subconcious.

[sbbqb7n16]

Hypnosis generally alters your mindset into what L4J said... thinking we are what our minds tell us we are.

What I mean by this is that you can be hypnotized to believe that you are possessed by a demon... but the actuality of that may not be true.

People also can believe that they are chickens, but we know they are not. Same thing.

[Live4Jesus]

Hypnosis though, actually tries to 'talk to' or 'bring to light' things that are in the subconcious.... and far as I know that is the same place nightmares reside... and who knows what else... Maybe sbbqb7n16, some people got chickens in there... definitely others got some real strange gods in there... ever read the 'Seth' books? don't if you havent already.

:eek:

[Michie]

What are the Seth books?

[MizDoulos]

That's what I'd like to know, too.

Hi, Michie!:wave:

[Gerry]

http://www.sethcenter.com/

Example:

THE SETH MATERIAL
By: Jane Roberts
Item #JR60

A classic in the field, this book chronicles Jane's first experiments with the Ouija Board and the very beginnings of her dialogue with the personality that eventually came to be called Seth. It also shows the rapid sophistication of this process with excerpts from Seth on various subjects, such as life after death, reincarnation, health, the nature of physical reality, the God concept, dreams, time, identity, and perception. In this book, Seth introduces the Inner Senses and presents exercises designed to help develop their use.

[Michie]

Ewww!

Nah, don't want anything to do with those books.

Hi MizDoulos! :wave:

[MizDoulos]

Hmm. That's interesting.

Thanks for the information, Gerry!

[Live4Jesus]

I used to in my college days... need the devil to play with your head well there is a good place to start...

Stay far away.

I didn't take it seriously, just read it out of interest (thought I should add that in...).

The subconcious... hmmm....

[Caedmon]

Do some "faith healers" sometimes use a form of hypnosis?

[SUNSTONE]

Hypnosis is good!

Ok this is how it works, you read the word of good over and over and over. You meditate on it, and after awhile you will be hypnotized to the truth! :clap:

The bible says, even as a man thinketh, so is he.

[Caedmon]

What's the difference between hypnosis and meditation?

[Live4Jesus]

Yesterday at 04:48 PM humblejoe said this in Post #18 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=646446#post646446)

What's the difference between hypnosis and meditation?



hypnosis literally tries to talk to the subconscious far as I know, there isn't any inbetween on that issue. Meditation... it maybe depends huh? On whether you are just sitting meditating... thinking on..... or going into what they call a trancendental trance,,, which would be like hypnosis far as i can tell even if its just a self-hyponosis...

Personally i have looked at lots and lots of that type of stuff, it interested me a lot when I was younger, i came to the conclusion, and am real final on it at least for myself... that whats in the subconscious of a lot of people is kind of leaning toward evil... psychology is based on studies of the subconscious.. read Carl Jung or even Freud... but again don't get too involved there, keep a rational perspective... my op anyway. Its where the devil resides... the subconscious... lunatics are victims of their own subconscious in a certain sense maybe... like those Seth books... who is that lady talking to? The devil in my opinion, straight from hell and out to deceive.. using that woman as his human puppet... like lots of psychics.

I heard a preacher guy say a while back... well how is it the psychics can help the cops solve crimes and stuff? well the lady has a channel to her subconscious,,, she has opened up a line there to the devil, and well, the crooks, they do work for him so why wouldn't they know who did it?

Jesus kind of told me exactly the same thing a good number of years ago as well.

[SUNSTONE]

Yesterday at 02:32 AM humblejoe said this in Post #16 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=645948#post645948)

Do some "faith healers" sometimes use a form of hypnosis?



No, we lay hands on them and pray.

Did Jesus use hypnosis?
Did the disciples use hypnosis?

[Lynn]

Most things can be used for good or for evil. Science, medicine, politics, chocolate. Just about everything.

I know that hypnosis has the potential for evil. But I also know that it can be very useful, medically. The best example is with my own father.

When I was a child, he suffered from the most horrendous migraine headaches. He could have 3-4 A DAY, to the point where he would pass out from the pain or go blind. They were incapacitating.

After several years, many physicians, umpteen million different drugs, he finally happened upon a physician who used hypnosis for some of his patients. After about 6 sessions, he was able to give my father a post-hypnotic suggestion that when he felt a migraine coming on, he'd clench his fist. Believe it or not, he never had a full-blown migraine after that. He was able to stop them. We looked at it as a gift from God. (Dad was a little embarrassed though, the doc was an obstetrician and he'd have to go sit in the waiting room with all the pregnant mommies!)

So anyway, like I said, somethings can be used for both good and bad. I think that this includes hyponosis.

[Live4Jesus]

I get migraines now and then, probably nothing like your dad's, generally I think from eating something that disagrees with me... anyway what i like to do is lay down and pretend/imagine I am laying on God's feet and He's loving me... helps quite a bit believe it or not... if I don't seek to get near Him, Father God himself, somehow or another during those times, they'll last a full 3 days normally...

I have head that taking some of those migraine aspirins is actually real bad for people that suffer that, and I did it once and it proved true, it goes away temporarily and then several hours later comes back twice as bad...


luckily i don't get them often. They are nasty.

[Caedmon]

Sometimes I get minor panic attacks in public places, like classrooms, auditoriums and such. The only thing that has really helped me to overcome these is to imagine Mary holding me and wrapping me in her mantel like she took care of baby Jesus. There is nothing that has proven to be more effective for me than this. I am so grateful that I've discovered what her mother's love can feel like. I can finally calm down, whew... :sleep: :)

[Live4Jesus]

Panic attacks is usually a sign of demons indwelling... or just an unclean spirit.

Your spirit is panicking. Unexplainable emotions hmmm...

You could use a good church that does deliverance, you would feel brand new, for a few days at least till they came back...

[Michie]

Hmm, that reminds me of that show I saw lastnight about exorcisms.

I don't believe panic attacks are demonic but a chemical imbalance.

[Live4Jesus]

It is weird, now I do know that panic attacks are generally an unclean spirit, no question about that here so don't bother debating, neither of us will win with each other I am sure... but what is weird, is that when people experience this stuff, yea, there is usually a physical side to it as well, chemical imbalance or what have you...

Maybe Quaffer knows a little bit about it...

It would be interesting to get some real Christian doctors to actually take notes on it without getting debunked...

[Caedmon]

Today at 07:29 PM Live4Jesus said this in Post #24 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=649744#post649744)

Panic attacks is usually a sign of demons indwelling... or just an unclean spirit.

Your spirit is panicking. Unexplainable emotions hmmm...

You could use a good church that does deliverance, you would feel brand new, for a few days at least till they came back...

Whenever Mommy Mary prays for me, the bad spirits go away. :)

[Michie]

My Hubby has panic attacks & it is definitely chemical.

Their may be those that have unexplained panic attacks though.

[Live4Jesus]

Today at 04:57 AM humblejoe said this in Post #27 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=650128#post650128)

Whenever Mommy Mary prays for me, the bad spirits go away. :)



Jesus gets rid of them forever... in one fell swoop...

You need the Holy spirit to stay clean.

[Caedmon]

Today at 11:40 PM Live4Jesus said this in Post #29 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=650214#post650214)

Jesus gets rid of them forever... in one fell swoop...

You need the Holy spirit to stay clean.

You said...

Panic attacks is usually a sign of demons indwelling... or just an unclean spirit.

And then you said...

Jesus gets rid of them forever... in one fell swoop...

You need the Holy spirit to stay clean.

According to your explanation, the only way that I could get rid of the bad spirits that you say are causing my panic attacks, "in on fell swoop", would be to get saved, which can only mean that I am not currently saved and do not have the Holy Spirit.

Now, considering that I do have the Holy Spirit, my panic attacks could not logically, according to your argument, be caused by bad spirits, whose condition upon entering and tormenting me are contingent upon me not being currently saved.

[Andrew]

I don't believe panic attacks are demonic but a chemical imbalance.

what if the demon is the one that messes up your chemical balance? Science sees only the chemical part, and that may be all there is to it.

Christians just consider the possibility of both. And if both are true, then it only makes sense to get to the root of it, which is to get rid of the demon causing it. IOW, u can use medicine to get the balance right, but all the demon has to do is make it imbalanced again.

just like cancer: you can cut out the limb or organ, but if there's a spirit behind it, all it has to do is manifest the cancer cells in another part of the body. No wonder doctors say cancer "has a life of its own, jumping from one place to another".

[Michie]

Well, makes no sense to me.

So everyone that has an illness has a demon behind it?

I don't go along with that line of thinking.

Period.

[Live4Jesus]

Today at 05:58 AM humblejoe said this in Post #30 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=650253#post650253)

You said...



And then you said...



According to your explanation, the only way that I could get rid of the bad spirits that you say are causing my panic attacks, "in on fell swoop", would be to get saved, which can only mean that I am not currently saved and do not have the Holy Spirit.

Now, considering that I do have the Holy Spirit, my panic attacks could not logically, according to your argument, be caused by bad spirits, whose condition upon entering and tormenting me are contingent upon me not being currently saved.


So you are saying then, that the Holy ghost that is with you suffers from panic attacks?

Fear is not of God... maybe time to test the spirit.

[Caedmon]

Today at 12:46 PM Live4Jesus said this in Post #33 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=651081#post651081)

So you are saying then, that the Holy ghost that is with you suffers from panic attacks?

Fear is not of God... maybe time to test the spirit.

So are you saying that a Christian never gets frightened, nervous, or anxious, and never panics?

[seebs]

Wow, and here I was thinking that panic attacks were most often a minor neurological disorder.

[Evening Mist]

On the subject of the subconscious -- if I have a psychological space in myself that allows the devil to reside in me without my conscious awareness, then I would much rather figure out a way to access it and deal with it, then stifle everything and go on with my life pretending I can stay in control just by ignoring it. The whole idea of the subconscious is that as long as are unaware of what resides there, you can be powerfully influenced by it without even realizing it.

While I wouldn't characterize what resides in my subconscious as "the devil," I can easily imagine that I have sinful motives and inclinations hidden in there. Making an effort to be aware of them is helpful in repenting of them, and trying to do better.

But Psychoanalytics are one branch of psychology, and only a theoretical model. It is a helpful approach for some, and not so much for others.

Hypnosis takes advantage of the power of suggestion. It relies on your already existing inclination to resond to only certain suggestions. It requires a level of intentionality and discipline. I have known a number of women who found a form of hypnosis to be very helpful in controlling labor pain. Personally, I found it too tedious. I'd rather yell and scream.

[SpiritPsalmist]

Today at 05:26 PM humblejoe said this in Post #34 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=651543#post651543)

So are you saying that a Christian never gets frightened, nervous, or anxious, and never panics?



Hey Joe,

Unfortionately, Christians do experience these emotions.&nbsp; But, should they?&nbsp;

According to scripture, "God has not given us a spirit of fear, He's given a spirit of "love, power, and a sound mind".&nbsp;

So we may logically conclude that when we become frightened, nervous, anxious, and panic (these are all other words for fear), then it is a spirit causing it and the spirit is not sent from God.

Just because we do experience these emotions, does not mean they should be permitted to stay and that they are to lead the way in the way we live.&nbsp; We are the one's with the authority, not them (evil spirits)

Be blessed,

Quaffer

[Live4Jesus]

Yesterday at 11:36 PM Evening Mist said this in Post #36 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=651638#post651638)

On the subject of the subconscious -- if I have a psychological space in myself that allows the devil to reside in me without my conscious awareness, then I would much rather figure out a way to access it and deal with it, then stifle everything and go on with my life pretending I can stay in control just by ignoring it. The whole idea of the subconscious is that as long as are unaware of what resides there, you can be powerfully influenced by it without even realizing it.



Very well said, I am in full agreement.

Thats why I think, in the bible it states Jesus 'knew what was in man'. It refers to that area, the hidden things.

Joe, Holy spirit came here and resolved all those issues. He's a real cool guy, never falters.

But until I knew Him I never could comprehend much less fully believe how awesome He is either, what the 'Grace' of God means...

By the grace of God I was saved that is for sure, for I was a wretch undone.

but no more praise God.

thank you Jesus.

He is soooo cool.... Mercy me.

[Andrew]

Well, makes no sense to me.

So everyone that has an illness has a demon behind it?

you obvioulsy did not read my post carefully. :(

[SnuP]

Yesterday at 11:58 PM humblejoe said this in Post #30 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=650253#post650253)

You said...



And then you said...



According to your explanation, the only way that I could get rid of the bad spirits that you say are causing my panic attacks, "in on fell swoop", would be to get saved, which can only mean that I am not currently saved and do not have the Holy Spirit.

Now, considering that I do have the Holy Spirit, my panic attacks could not logically, according to your argument, be caused by bad spirits, whose condition upon entering and tormenting me are contingent upon me not being currently saved.

You are extremely right.&nbsp; But I think that you may be missing somethings.&nbsp; You already know that bad spirits can not occupy the same space as the Holy Spirit.&nbsp; But is the Holy Spirit occupying your mind?&nbsp; If He does occupy your mind then no darkness or sin should be found there.&nbsp; Bad spirits can occupy any space that has darkness in it.&nbsp; In this case it would be easy for a demon to occupy your thoughts and yet have the Holy Spirit maintain control of your spirit.&nbsp; The reality is that you do need salvation.&nbsp; Not salvation for your spirit, but salvation for your mind and thoughts.&nbsp; You may believe that you only need to get saved once.&nbsp; That is true.&nbsp; You only need to get saved from hell once, but&nbsp;you may need to get saved from seperation many times.&nbsp; Jesus didn't come just to save us from hell.&nbsp; He accually came to restore our relationship with God.&nbsp; From this understanding there are many areas in our lives that need to be restored and saved from the seperation that keeps us from God.&nbsp; Satan has control of us in any area that is not saved (from seperation).&nbsp; Those are also the areas that are not free from sin and desease.&nbsp; Fear (panic attacts) are a seperation of our minds from the Lord.&nbsp; Perfect love cast out fear.&nbsp; So therefore you have not experienced God's love in your mind.&nbsp; As long as you have area that are not saved, crusified, and redeemed, then you will have areas of defeat, and are subject to the enemies control (sin).

[Caedmon]

Today at 12:13 AM SnuP said this in Post #40 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=652413#post652413)

You are extremely right.&nbsp; But I think that you may be missing somethings.&nbsp; You already know that bad spirits can not occupy the same space as the Holy Spirit.&nbsp; But is the Holy Spirit occupying your mind?&nbsp; If He does occupy your mind then no darkness or sin should be found there.&nbsp; Bad spirits can occupy any space that has darkness in it.&nbsp; In this case it would be easy for a demon to occupy your thoughts and yet have the Holy Spirit maintain control of your spirit.&nbsp; The reality is that you do need salvation.&nbsp; Not salvation for your spirit, but salvation for your mind and thoughts.&nbsp; You may believe that you only need to get saved once.&nbsp; That is true.&nbsp; You only need to get saved from hell once, but&nbsp;you may need to get saved from seperation many times.&nbsp; Jesus didn't come just to save us from hell.&nbsp; He accually came to restore our relationship with God.&nbsp; From this understanding there are many areas in our lives that need to be restored and saved from the seperation that keeps us from God.&nbsp; Satan has control of us in any area that is not saved (from seperation).&nbsp; Those are also the areas that are not free from sin and desease.&nbsp; Fear (panic attacts) are a seperation of our minds from the Lord.&nbsp; Perfect love cast out fear.&nbsp; So therefore you have not experienced God's love in your mind.&nbsp; As long as you have area that are not saved, crusified, and redeemed, then you will have areas of defeat, and are subject to the enemies control (sin).

You can't seperate the mind from the soul, just like you can't seperate Jesus' soul from His divinity, or faith from works. There are no boundaries between mind and soul. It is impossible to distinguish them from each other. At what point does soul cease to be a part of the mind, or vice versa? They are totally intertwined. If a "bad spirit" could occupy your mind, then it most certainly would occupy your soul as well. And fwiw, I do not believe in "once saved, always saved."

[SnuP]

I absolutely agree. The mind is a part of the soul. The parts of the soul, are the Mind, the Will, and the Emotions.

The problem is that I never said that the Holy Spirit occupies the soul, rather I said that He occupies the spirit and it is the spirit that is saved, because your spirit is the one that has complete communion with God.

Do you really believe that the Holy Spirit occupies your soul?

And if so, why then does the soul of man have so much darkness in it if the Spirit of Light is living there?

[Caedmon]

Today at 12:34 AM SnuP said this in Post #42 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=652456#post652456)

I absolutely agree. The mind is a part of the soul. The parts of the soul, are the Mind, the Will, and the Emotions.

The problem is that I never said that the Holy Spirit occupies the soul, rather I said that He occupies the spirit and it is the spirit that is saved, because your spirit is the one that has complete communion with God.

Do you really believe that the Holy Spirit occupies your soul?

And if so, why then does the soul of man have so much darkness in it if the Spirit of Light is living there?

Huh? :confused: Are you saying there's two souls? I believe that we have one soul, and that that entity is one entity, incapable of being dissected in any way.

[Caedmon]

Today at 12:34 AM SnuP said this in Post #42 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=652456#post652456)
And if so, why then does the soul of man have so much darkness in it if the Spirit of Light is living there?

Because sin always leaves a trace of damage on the soul, a stain that needs to be cleansed. Say a husband cusses out his wife... well, if that man doesn't work toward having himself cleansed of the effect that that sin has on his soul, that trace is going to leave a foothold for that very sin to take place again, and more easily so. The foothold, the stain, must be cleansed.

[SnuP]

there is spirit and there is soul. There is the Holy of Holies and the Holy Place. Spirit, Soul and Body. the Soul itself has three seperate areas, mind, will, and emotions.

When you are saved, the Holy Ghost takes up residence in your spirit (He does not occupy the soul).

God purifies what ever He houses. He will not exist where there is sin. Thus the reason for my line of questions. If God did occupy the soul, then there could never be any sin in the soul. I.E. never an evil thought. That is obviously not the case.

[SnuP]

Today at 12:52 AM humblejoe said this in Post #44 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=652490#post652490)

Because sin always leaves a trace of damage on the soul, a stain that needs to be cleansed. Say a husband cusses out his wife... well, if that man doesn't work toward having himself cleansed of the effect that that sin has on his soul, that trace is going to leave a foothold for that very sin to take place again, and more easily so. The foothold, the stain, must be cleansed.



What you are refering to is called defilement, in the Scriptures.&nbsp; God will not occupy any place that is defiled or has darkness or a trace of sin.&nbsp; He is holy therefore the place He occupies must be holy.&nbsp; That is why God lives in the spirit of a man and not the soul.

[Serving4Christ]

Yesterday at 06:29 PM Live4Jesus said this in Post #24 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=649744#post649744)

Panic attacks is usually a sign of demons indwelling... or just an unclean spirit.

Your spirit is panicking. Unexplainable emotions hmmm...

You could use a good church that does deliverance, you would feel brand new, for a few days at least till they came back...




hmmm....don't know what to say about that one.&nbsp; Your head aint spinning 360 degrees is it?&nbsp; No split pea soup yet?&nbsp; just wondering...

Actually, panic attacks have been linked to low levels of serotonin in the brain, it is also shown to be a genetic process, passed down from generation to generation.&nbsp; The same&nbsp;medication used to treat depression has been proven to rid people of panic disorders.&nbsp; Several new developments in treating panic disorders have come within the past couple of years.&nbsp; Paxil&nbsp;seems to be the choice for ridding unwanted panic attacks, and a nice long prayer&nbsp;to God for the development of such great medicine!

&nbsp;:clap:

&nbsp;

As to why you have them?&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

[SnuP]

Or is it that fear produces increased levels of serotonin? who desides which is the cause and which is the effect. Did the sientist test these people before the panic attacks or only after? I pretty sure that it is the other way around.

[unitedistand]

ok.... to reply to Humblejoe's posts in chronologal order: "faith healing", NO hypnosis is used. Now, concerning panick attacks: they can be caused by demonic oppression or posession (personal expierience)... that's the same as depression, but to stay on topic, I will not get into that....

[Michie]

Ok Andrew.

But i still think we disagree.

Not all illnesses or disorders are attributed to demons.

Christians do get ill, they do fear & they do suffer.

Some do not get healed.

There are those in different countries that are hungry & persecuted.

God promised us eternal life.

But I don't think He ever said things will always be easy here.

It is according to His will, not ours.

Sometimes things that according to our flesh are not pleasant but God seems to have the knack for turning these situations to His glory.

I have a real propblem with some of these lines of thinking because it seems to point the finger at the hurting.

I do not think it is possible for a believer indwelt with the Holy Spirit to be possessed with demons.

I don't see the two co-opting someone.

A house divided cannot stand.

[Andrew]

But i still think we disagree.
Not all illnesses or disorders are attributed to demons.

nobody's saying that.

Christians do get ill, they do fear & they do suffer.

yes that's obvious, but its not what God wants.

Some do not get healed.

that's obvious -- just like not all get saved.

There are those in different countries that are hungry & persecuted.

certainly God does not want anyone hungry.

God promised us eternal life. But I don't think He ever said things will always be easy here.

yes he said there will be trials but he also said he wld "deliver us out of them ALL".

It is according to His will, not ours.

then read the Bible to find out what his revealed will is. no need to remain in the dark and speculate.

[Evening Mist]

Panic attacks singnal that something more is needed.
God provides for our needs in many different and creative ways.
God does not condemn us for having fears, he comforts us.
Each of us responds to a different kind of comfort.
Just like each of my children responds to a different kind of comfort when they are upset.

And honestly, equating a panic attack with "fear" is oversimplifying the issue. Anxiety is not exactly the same thing as fear. And very often, the person who is having an attack does not recognize the feeling as anxiety, or fear, or panic -- but might well respond to the attack with overwhelming fear of what it might be doing to them. The various approaches that people have mentioned (picturing themselves being held by Mary) help to control that fear and the attack looses its intensity.

Joe -- what a beautiful image. I'm so glad that God has given you that gift.

[SpiritPsalmist]

Today at 08:37 AM Evening Mist said this in Post #52 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=652699#post652699)

Panic attacks singnal that something more is needed.
God provides for our needs in many different and creative ways.
God does not condemn us for having fears, he comforts us.
Each of us responds to a different kind of comfort.
Just like each of my children responds to a different kind of comfort when they are upset.

And honestly, equating a panic attack with "fear" is oversimplifying the issue. Anxiety is not exactly the same thing as fear. And very often, the person who is having an attack does not recognize the feeling as anxiety, or fear, or panic -- but might well respond to the attack with overwhelming fear of what it might be doing to them. The various approaches that people have mentioned (picturing themselves being held by Mary) help to control that fear and the attack looses its intensity.

Joe -- what a beautiful image. I'm so glad that God has given you that gift.

&nbsp;

God says, "my people perish for lack of knowledge".&nbsp; How one initially responds to panic is one thing but how one continues to respond is another.&nbsp;

You're correct that God does not condemn us, however, He has given us the authority over anything that would try to bind us.&nbsp; When we choose to not use the authority He has given us, then we are no better than Adam, who by his own choosing became dominated by what God had said he had dominion over.

The world&nbsp; has given nice clinical names to things and then we attach our name to it and it is now "ours".&nbsp; My panic attacks,&nbsp; my feelings, etc.&nbsp;&nbsp;

By simple I do not mean necessarily that everything was "all better" in the blink of an eye.&nbsp; I became knowledgable of God's&nbsp;Word and what it says regarding our "battle not being against flesh and blood, but against powers and principalities of the air."&nbsp; I began to do battle in the right direction and I did not have those problems anymore.

They still try to come back once in awhile and I am learning to not let them have any hold.&nbsp;It takes work to be an overcomer instead of being overcome.

Quaffer

[Evening Mist]

Quaffer -- visualizing a spiritual battle is one way to take control over your mind and emotions. For many people it is a very good way. It might well represent reality, but I'm not speaking to that.

There are other strategies that are equally helpful. It is my contention that they are orchestarted by God.

When I have a panic attack (and I have and do,) I accept it as a signal that my life needs an adjustment. I cancel and apointment, I sit down on the floor and rest in God's love, I pull the car over and ask someone else to drive..... There is no reason to believe that these are not good and God given ways to handle a panic attack.

[Evening Mist]

I am not being clear. I am sorry. I am trying to say that the cause of a panic attack is NOT always fear, though anxiety/fear/panic may play into it.

It is unfair to decide for other people that if they would just be a good enough Christian, their attacks will go away. It is unfair and untrue.

A person without fear might have an attack as a result of stress.

The cause of a panic attack is chemical, and nobody really understands what causes the chemical imbalance. It is impossible to tell whether life first affects chemistry or chemistry first affects life. And it is equally difficult to try to factor in "causes" of spirit and distinguish them from reactions of spirit.

Often a panic attacks feels like a heart attack, pure and simple. The person reacts to the attack with panic -- and that is why it is named such.

How the mix of inter-related causes needs to be addressed depends on the person and the situation. I have worked with brain damaged clients for whom medication made the difference between life and eath, and for others it meant a subtle but important difference in their level of independence.

For others, like me, an attack like that means "Slow down, breath, stop trying to take on so much and be strong in the Lord."

[Live4Jesus]

Today at 06:13 AM SnuP said this in Post #40 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=652413#post652413)

You are extremely right.&nbsp; But I think that you may be missing somethings.&nbsp; You already know that bad spirits can not occupy the same space as the Holy Spirit.&nbsp; But is the Holy Spirit occupying your mind?&nbsp; If He does occupy your mind then no darkness or sin should be found there.&nbsp; Bad spirits can occupy any space that has darkness in it.&nbsp; In this case it would be easy for a demon to occupy your thoughts and yet have the Holy Spirit maintain control of your spirit.&nbsp; The reality is that you do need salvation.&nbsp; Not salvation for your spirit, but salvation for your mind and thoughts.&nbsp; You may believe that you only need to get saved once.&nbsp; That is true.&nbsp; You only need to get saved from hell once, but&nbsp;you may need to get saved from seperation many times.&nbsp; Jesus didn't come just to save us from hell.&nbsp; He accually came to restore our relationship with God.&nbsp; From this understanding there are many areas in our lives that need to be restored and saved from the seperation that keeps us from God.&nbsp; Satan has control of us in any area that is not saved (from seperation).&nbsp; Those are also the areas that are not free from sin and desease.&nbsp; Fear (panic attacts) are a seperation of our minds from the Lord.&nbsp; Perfect love cast out fear.&nbsp; So therefore you have not experienced God's love in your mind.&nbsp; As long as you have area that are not saved, crusified, and redeemed, then you will have areas of defeat, and are subject to the enemies control (sin).



That is reallly well put SnuP, thats what it has been like here as well... got saved (from hell) then when through a time where He chastised me real good, which I like, i like good solid correction (bad or ignorant criticism is not good, but I love a positive critique, and who better than the Holy Spirit for that? Best teacher in the universe... but believe me I did cry before I understood... because He was quite forthright about MY failings... which I could not see)

Saved from seperation many times.... indeed... slipping up here and there and He yanks me back... I have to want to go back to get there so I do listen quite intently... and work on those areas He points out.

I like to ask Him like David did... I say Lord search my heart... and then over the next week or two things will crop up... some He speaks directly to me, other things He does have to show me through experience... we're getting there... its like a dance... He leads, I follow, I am still learning to dance.

I think in time we'll be quite a duet... :) :)

[Live4Jesus]

Far as I see it at this point in my life... either you have Faith and look to God, or you don't and try to resolve these thing (and related) through the force of your own will or imaginations (medicines, psychiatry).

I put God first... if He shows me what is within myself how can I argue? He is God. I am not so forward as to say, that I know better -that science knows better... obviously all arguing here for science and medicine have never been in this arena fully with God. Its obvious. And yes I can say that outright, because I have been there, and I do know how He teaches and of what concerning these things... and proof of that is that He has taught others here exactly the same things He has taught me... I can guarantee there is not a single textbook anywhere that can teach you these things fully, you must be taught by God about spiritual things because He sees what you cannot.

reading a book won't cut it. no university degrees on this one.

by arguing for medicine all you are doing is denying the finest physician in the universe.

[SnuP]

Today at 09:47 AM Evening Mist said this in Post #55 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=652889#post652889)

I am not being clear. I am sorry. I am trying to say that the cause of a panic attack is NOT always fear, though anxiety/fear/panic may play into it.

It is unfair to decide for other people that if they would just be a good enough Christian, their attacks will go away. It is unfair and untrue.

A person without fear might have an attack as a result of stress.

The cause of a panic attack is chemical, and nobody really understands what causes the chemical imbalance. It is impossible to tell whether life first affects chemistry or chemistry first affects life. And it is equally difficult to try to factor in "causes" of spirit and distinguish them from reactions of spirit.

Often a panic attacks feels like a heart attack, pure and simple. The person reacts to the attack with panic -- and that is why it is named such.

How the mix of inter-related causes needs to be addressed depends on the person and the situation. I have worked with brain damaged clients for whom medication made the difference between life and eath, and for others it meant a subtle but important difference in their level of independence.

For others, like me, an attack like that means "Slow down, breath, stop trying to take on so much and be strong in the Lord."

I can see your point about the differing causes of panic attacks, but it still means that they are rooted in darkness.&nbsp; And that means that there is undealt with darkness, in the life&nbsp;of the&nbsp;person that is experiencing these panic attacks.&nbsp; Christ came to deliver us from darkness, and the cause of panic attacks.

Remember peace and joy and a sound mind?

This is what God came to give us.&nbsp; Everything that Jesus taught in His ministry was to deliver us of such things.&nbsp; It sound as though you may need to appropriate this delieverence rather than just cooping.

[Evening Mist]

Snup -- I agree with your last post. I still believe there are different methods God can use to bring about healing.

And some people always have to "just cope" because the world is far from prefect, and we inflict evil upon one-another and on themselves. My clients in the rehab were sick in their minds as a result of car accidents or not wearing bicyle helmets. There is always the hope for healing, but in God's timing. In the mean time we wait, and we cope, and there is nothing wrong with "coping."

And it isn't always just "coping" either. When I burn my finger I take it as a sign that my finger is too close to the fire and so I step back, or I put a pair of oven mits on so I can get on with my work. I don't pray that God will make my finger tougher so that it can stand up to the heat. I respond sensilby to the God-given phsycial cue called "pain." Lots of people resons to emotional pain in a similar fashion.

[SnuP]

But you can pray for God to make you more sensitive to His prompting, so that because of His warning you don't get burned (Or start worrying too much, or fearing some situation, or getting too involved in things you can't handle). And then you can find real victory, not because God keeps rescuing you, but because you have learned to walk in the Spirit.

[Live4Jesus]

Learning to walk with God is not an easy thing... and it can only happen if God is there.

Mostly SnuP I would say people need to learn how to pray just for starters wouldn't you? Sad how we attempt to outlaw prayer in favor of our sciences.....

People don't go to clinics to pray so it's probably a mute issue. They go there for a bandaid. What they should have done is prayed before they stepped out the door... and maybe they would have heard the Lord respond 'HELMET PLEASE'.

No one's listening. don't blame it on God.

[Live4Jesus]

Hi SnuP!

:wave:

[SpiritPsalmist]

Today at 10:47 AM Evening Mist said this in Post #55 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=652889#post652889)

I am not being clear. I am sorry. I am trying to say that the cause of a panic attack is NOT always fear, though anxiety/fear/panic may play into it.

It is unfair to decide for other people that if they would just be a good enough Christian, their attacks will go away. It is unfair and untrue.

A person without fear might have an attack as a result of stress.

The cause of a panic attack is chemical, and nobody really understands what causes the chemical imbalance. It is impossible to tell whether life first affects chemistry or chemistry first affects life. And it is equally difficult to try to factor in "causes" of spirit and distinguish them from reactions of spirit.

Often a panic attacks feels like a heart attack, pure and simple. The person reacts to the attack with panic -- and that is why it is named such.

How the mix of inter-related causes needs to be addressed depends on the person and the situation. I have worked with brain damaged clients for whom medication made the difference between life and eath, and for others it meant a subtle but important difference in their level of independence.

For others, like me, an attack like that means "Slow down, breath, stop trying to take on so much and be strong in the Lord."




I don't believe I said that if anyone is a good enough christian their attacks will go away.&nbsp; As christians we will, for the rest of our human living, experience attacks from the enemy.&nbsp; The thing is, are we going to allow the attacks to immobilize us?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

Again, I am not trying to say that the emotions are not real.&nbsp; I am saying they are conquerable.

I do not believe there was ever a panic attack until after Adam sinned.&nbsp;

I do not visiulize myself on a battle field.&nbsp; That was was scripture that I wrote, albeit a bit paraphrased.&nbsp; Eph 6:12 (Amplified) "For we are not wrestling with flesh and blood [contending only with physical opponents], but against the despotisms, against the powers, against [the master spirits who are] the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spirit forces of wickedness in the heavenly (supernatural) sphere".

NKJ "for we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of widkedness in the heavenly places.

I believe, according to the Bible, it's life that affects chemistry.&nbsp; We may give the attack a clinical name and have means of coping with the name we've given it but according to the Word of God it is not a physical issue, it is spiritual.

As you mentioned with your attacks, they happen as a result of you doing more than you should and your eyes being more on your self than the Lord. You've armed yourself with the knowledge to know how your body reacts to this.&nbsp; Therefore, giving you the warning that you are wandering off the straight and well lit path into the path of your own understanding.

Being armed with this knowledge, you then make the adjustments needed, the main one, resting in the Lord.&nbsp; Then your body follows suit.

For me, I battle depression.&nbsp; I only get depressed when I get my eyes&nbsp;on my abilities, or lack thereof.&nbsp; When in the middle of this God finely get's my attention, I find myself on my face before Him in repentance.&nbsp; Then when I rise, the depression is gone.&nbsp; However, it would not get a foot hold at all, if I never took my eyes off of Jesus.&nbsp; That's what I'm aiming for.

Quaffer

[Evening Mist]

Amen to that SnuP, and I do. And I think most Chrsitians do.

But fear is not always evil, and anger is not always evil, and sickness is not always evil. Sometimes fear is a promting from God to run. Sometimes anger is a promting from God to affect change. Sometimes sickeness is evidence of a battle going on in your body, and we can be encouraged by the fact that that battle is being faught on our behalf while we wait and "cope" until the final outcome.

And when I am grocery shopping with 2 screaming kids and the lady behind me keeps running her cart into my heels, and I can't get my 2 year old up off the floor so that we can get to the milk aisle, and I am aware of the fact that when I got home I'll have to get the kids down for naps and get the groceries in and put away by myself -- and then my hands start shaking, and I get dizzy, and feel nauseous, and my vision becomes distored and I have trouble speaking ...... This is all because I am not strong enough in faith??? Maybe so. Maybe if I walked with the spirit more closely I could figure out how to feed my kids without going to the grocery store. I dunno.

But SnuP this whole idea of faith healing is a pretty serious thing to consider. I knew a guy who had diabetes and he believed he was healed and went off his insulin. 2 days later he was found unconscious behind the wheel of his car after he went into shock and drove into a wall. Now you might say that his faith was obviously not strong enough or else that would never have happened. But what will you say when it happens again and he runs down an innocent child playing on the sidewalk? What will you say to that child's parents?

And what do you say to the battered wife, who prays every day for guidance and deliverance by the power of the holy spirit, who suffers from depression, anxiety, fear and pain. Who's husband tells her that everything would be fine if she were just a better Christian, and then slugs her again? Is it her own fault for not walking closely enough with the spirit?

What about my brain damaged clients? Do you have any idea how many times those men went to church, came home on fire for God and convinced that if they just had enough faith they would be healed and their life would go back to normal? So they would refuse their meds and then become violent and dangerous, threaten me, pull a knife of their roomate, and then start having seizures and have to be taken to the ER?

[Live4Jesus]

I battle laziness.

Never a depressed moment here, He took that and Him being here I can always rise above... but things have been going so well of late I find I just want to sit out and nap a lot. I did work real hard for a good few years prior, 18 hour days non-stop so i did get weary for sure...

So maybe we are just resting.... He told me yesterday though, because we haven't been to church in a while, left a good one not because of the pastor, love the pastor, but because of a couple women who were terribly judgemental i thought, and not walking real close themselves (kind of obvious... vanity showing real good) who were in positions of leadership there... so just to avoid any going to the alter with a troubled heart sort of thing, we haven't gone in a while... maybe it was His doing, He did move us into a new area but I think it's time to go back...

What happened.. well generally i look to Him for just about everything, it has done us quite well to do that, wait on Him... so yesterday I am sitting here saying to myself... I really should get more done (and I really feel that way, don't have to get more done but would like too)... and so I am like asking him, in my mind, maybe I prayed I forget... and you know what He said? I heard Him quite clearly... "oh I don't feel like it.." He said that... yea I get the message, bcause He reminded me at the same moment that that's what I do on sunday morns when it's the perfect tiome to sleep in (and miss church) "oh I don't feel like it..."

We are going to make an effort to get up early tomorrow and visit our messianic bros and sisters in town... for sure, I must admit when we go to church, yea, sometimes its easier to say 'oh I don't feel like it' ... because He is here and thats no doubt... but when we get out there early and worship and fellowship... somehow I get more done during the week too...(He walks me through even stuff I don't like to do... which I absolutely love...) even though I gave up my saturday or sunday morn extra sleep hours...

We did twist a while here getting fully into the sabbath, and maybe leaving the one church was about that too... so we'll see how it goes there tomorrow, if I know Jesus He'll have a word direct for us out of the pastor's mouth that He's been speaking here as well... and that may be it as well... there are for sure things He will do in the church (building itself) that He won't do at home... like even though I was saved at home, the Holy Spirit came in here at a church... important stuff like that.. may have to do more with my daughter than myself even..

[Live4Jesus]

There are definitely places eveningmist where God doesn't work... like your violent clients... hard to say whats really going on there for sure... My feeling is that there are hidden things most people won't tell you, even though they 'claim' to be good christians, well only God knows the truth of their hearts.

I used to get that dizziness, kind of feel queasy, low blood pressure thing... since i have been saved though, it really is gone, so like there have been maybe 2-3 times in the past several years where it's shown up just for a moment, me yea I do think it's something I pick up on the street, wherever... but it never lasts ... I used to get all sort of little wierd things, like anyone I suppose before He got me relatively clean... and still not perfect.. but one thing I know is do your best to keep His word and He will be there, healing, protecting, chasing the devil away. walk with him and He'll walk with you. Always think of Him there by your side, his legions of angels around you....

if you only get that queasiness in the one grocery store, maybe try shopping somewhere else. i know there are places I've walked into, where there was a heaviness shall we say, and it did likewise affect me for a bit afterwards.

And otherwise, just keep Jesus close, keep asking him to search your heart, have Faith for what you ask, and He'll come through.

I wouldn't have been able to raise my daughter very well without Him at all, I had a relatively violent temper myself from time to time, had been hurt a lot, which He subdued completely.

That in itself is a miracle.

[SpiritPsalmist]

Today at 02:06 PM Evening Mist said this in Post #64 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=653216#post653216)

Amen to that SnuP, and I do. And I think most Chrsitians do.

But fear is not always evil, and anger is not always evil, and sickness is not always evil. Sometimes fear is a promting from God to run. Sometimes anger is a promting from God to affect change. Sometimes sickeness is evidence of a battle going on in your body, and we can be encouraged by the fact that that battle is being faught on our behalf while we wait and "cope" until the final outcome.

And when I am grocery shopping with 2 screaming kids and the lady behind me keeps running her cart into my heels, and I can't get my 2 year old up off the floor so that we can get to the milk aisle, and I am aware of the fact that when I got home I'll have to get the kids down for naps and get the groceries in and put away by myself -- and then my hands start shaking, and I get dizzy, and feel nauseous, and my vision becomes distored and I have trouble speaking ...... This is all because I am not strong enough in faith??? Maybe so. Maybe if I walked with the spirit more closely I could figure out how to feed my kids without going to the grocery store. I dunno.

But SnuP this whole idea of faith healing is a pretty serious thing to consider. I knew a guy who had diabetes and he believed he was healed and went off his insulin. 2 days later he was found unconscious behind the wheel of his car after he went into shock and drove into a wall. Now you might say that his faith was obviously not strong enough or else that would never have happened. But what will you say when it happens again and he runs down an innocent child playing on the sidewalk? What will you say to that child's parents?

And what do you say to the battered wife, who prays every day for guidance and deliverance by the power of the holy spirit, who suffers from depression, anxiety, fear and pain. Who's husband tells her that everything would be fine if she were just a better Christian, and then slugs her again? Is it her own fault for not walking closely enough with the spirit?

What about my brain damaged clients? Do you have any idea how many times those men went to church, came home on fire for God and convinced that if they just had enough faith they would be healed and their life would go back to normal? So they would refuse their meds and then become violent and dangerous, threaten me, pull a knife of their roomate, and then start having seizures and have to be taken to the ER?




Certaintly you don't believe that going to the grocery store has to result in a panic attack?&nbsp; I believe that if you were to slow down and rest in the Lord before you went to the store perhaps you would not have a panic attack.&nbsp;

Or maybe, if possible you could work out a system with another mom who might watch your kids while you go to the store and then you do the same for her.

No one should go off their medicine unless the doctor says so.&nbsp; Or, they know without a doubt they don't need it anymore, and that is usually confirmed by a doctor.&nbsp; As far as the battered woman goes, she should get away from the one who is battering her.

Faith does not mean you do dangerous things.

Quaffer

[Evening Mist]

Faith does not mean you do dangerous things.

Cool. Then we are on the same page.


Certaintly you don't believe that going to the grocery store has to result in a panic attack?

LOL! Have you ever grocery shopped with two children in hand? Yes, it has happened. Not always. Mostly I avoid taking them.

[Evening Mist]

There are definitely places eveningmist where God doesn't work... like your violent clients...

Live4Jesus -- surely you didn't mean that exactly the way it sounds? I'm guessing (based on your generally loving and enthusiastic attitude) that you didn't.

I think it is very possible God was working through me in their situation. Me, the lowly mental health worker.
And also through their families. And, gasp, through their medications too.

Is it possible that God was working through their very afflictions in some fashion? I don't know. I would never say that God afflicted them. But I would say that God can use our afflictions for some good purpose. He is the master of salvaging things.

Does "God working" always have to be evident in mystical events before we can know it is Him?

[Live4Jesus]

Today at 09:23 PM Evening Mist said this in Post #69 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=653477#post653477)

Live4Jesus -- surely you didn't mean that exactly the way it sounds? I'm guessing (based on your generally loving and enthusiastic attitude) that you didn't.

I think it is very possible God was working through me in their situation. Me, the lowly mental health worker.
And also through their families. And, gasp, through their medications too.

Is it possible that God was working through their very afflictions in some fashion? I don't know. I would never say that God afflicted them. But I would say that God can use our afflictions for some good purpose. He is the master of salvaging things.

Does "God working" always have to be evident in mystical events before we can know it is Him?



Surely He may be working through you, but what I meant was that even though they 'claimed' to be christians, doesn't really mean that much. (in so far as why their violence)

And the rest a possibilty too I will grant you that, that I suppose it may be possible that if He cannot reach someone with His spirit, medication may be the last resort.

Thats why it's important to have faith... if you don't fully believe, then God's work is useless in you. You have to take hold of Him, God doesn't carry screaming kicking prisoners... they would only go back to what caused their trouble anyway if given the chance, faith is real important, waiting on God and trusting He's there or the devil can really get the best of you... 'where is He? why do i feel this way?..I am going nuuuts... I am going to hurt myself... etc'

I never knew God in what people refer to as mystical expriences... He quite real here, just can't see Him, can feel His hands from time to time... He came, He did what He needed to do... I did not see him, however His presence was enough to shake the house off its foundations had He wanted... Mercy me no kidding. There is a real strong sensation of 'life' not the little bit we know when born into this world but a vibrant exuding massive thing, his spirit, love grace peace.... But I was wide awake nothing funny there at all, just like I am now sitting here at this desk. He left the Holy Spirit here as comfortor, just like in the bible, even when i received the Holy spirit there was a great big rushing of wind... just like in the bible. It's Him. God is something I cannot completely fathom... yea the Holy spirit is here, but God is also separate form Him, and even Jesus the son of God, but they have a way of communicating or something as though He were everywhere in the world at one time. God. Thats all I can say... awesome. the reason they call the separate parts of what we call "God' , one, one God, yea but 3 separate guys as well. Plus angels who intercede, they have been around also, usually during times when i've despaired early on... its a presence that speaks sort of...

My best advice ... ask Him to search your heart,, and then be still and know that He IS God.

He works quite silently as well. But faith still has to be there. Big faith because the world around, the popel you know, are easily used by the devil to destroy the work God does in you... don't let them defer you from your journey... it's the best thing you'll ever do, not only for yourself, but, in time your entire family as well. And eventually those spirits that cause others around you to deny your faith, will cease, for the most part.

Thats why Jesus says.. 'I come to set my people free' yea maybe from physical prisons but also from spiritual prisons.

Have faith, Eveningmist, and be blessed. When the Holy spirit comes Evenmist, you'll know, you'll know Him... He lets you know it's Him, Jesus. He will make sure of that...'till there is no doubt in your mind' as He said to me... No mystical nothing, don't look there, just have big faith. Ask. Even ask Jesus to teach you about Himself. He likes to prove Himself, he does know how awesome He is, He wants you to know too.... God will not lose any that love him.

[Live4Jesus]

Faith does not mean you do dangerous things thats rright eveningmist... rememeber when satan tempted Jesus in the desert... to jump off a ledge and he told him the angels would catch him? Jesus replied 'you do not tempt God'.

dangerous stuff, is tempting God. God's angels may catch you once or twice but if you persist, He may just also let you fall to prove your own humanity (or ignorance) to you.

Don't tempt God. This is not a game. When you need Him, He will be there, don't be the little boy crying wolf all the time or He may not respond after while...

[Evening Mist]

When you need Him, He will be there, don't be the little boy crying wolf all the time or He may not respond after while...

This does not make a lot of sense to me. It just doesn't ring true to what I know about God's patience. Maybe I'm not undestanding.


Surely He may be working through you, but what I meant was that even though they 'claimed' to be christians, doesn't really mean that much. (in so far as why their violence)

These were men who had sustained major damage to their brains. More or less demolished major portions of their frontal lobes, so that they lost their ability to control their own inclinations. They were "disinhibited," and that would be putting it mildly.

It is really not fair to hold them responsible for violent behaviors comitted in a state of insanity, confusion and pain.

They were victims of their injuries, and it was very, very, very sad.




Big faith because the world around, the popel you know, are easily used by the devil to destroy the work God does in you... don't let them defer you from your journey...

God created us to be social beings and to rely on one-another as one body. It is acceptable and healthy to rely on each other for comfort and support.

But people also do abuse each other, and it does strike me as sensible to avoid those people who tear down, harm, and humilated other people.




My best advice ... ask Him to search your heart,, and then be still and know that He IS God.

Wonderful advice! I will do that.

[Live4Jesus]

Today at 03:10 AM Evening Mist said this in Post #72 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=653942#post653942)

This does not make a lot of sense to me. It just doesn't ring true to what I know about God's patience. Maybe I'm not understanding.

That's true, but He isn't real interested in playing games. Have faith and have faith again. Don't test God. Or His patience.

Walk humbly shall we say... with your God.



[B]Today at 03:10 AM Evening Mist said this in Post #72
These were men who had sustained major damage to their brains. More or less demolished major portions of their frontal lobes, so that they lost their ability to control their own inclinations. They were "disinhibited," and that would be putting it mildly.

It is really not fair to hold them responsible for violent behaviors comitted in a state of insanity, confusion and pain.

They were victims of their injuries, and it was very, very, very sad.

Oh wasn't aware of that.





[B]Today at 03:10 AM Evening Mist said this in Post #72
God created us to be social beings and to rely on one-another as one body. It is acceptable and healthy to rely on each other for comfort and support.

But people also do abuse each other, and it does strike me as sensible to avoid those people who tear down, harm, and humilated other people.

Talk to some others who have been saved real good, you'll hear some very surprising stories, about how family and friends can turn on you, to keep you from Christ. Sad but true.





[B]Today at 03:10 AM Evening Mist said this in Post #72
Wonderful advice! I will do that.



I do it regularly. He hears me right there and has shown me much.

Lord guide our steps.

[Caedmon]

Maybe I'm wrong, but it sounds to me like some of you are saying that I'm not doing anything lasting to help me with my minor panic attacks. I've already told what I do, and it helps me almost every time. I get better at it every time too. I don't think I am letting myself stay defeated, or that I am letting some kind of darkness stay locked up in my soul. I hope y'all are not saying that, because that would be very insulting. :(

[Michie]

Well, if it helps, I think at least we are both on the same page Joe.

[Evening Mist]

I don't think I'd ever say anything like that Humble Joe. I think you are doing fine.

[SpiritPsalmist]

Today at 01:05 AM humblejoe said this in Post #74 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=654256#post654256)

Maybe I'm wrong, but it sounds to me like some of you are saying that I'm not doing anything lasting to help me with my minor panic attacks. I've already told what I do, and it helps me almost every time. I get better at it every time too. I don't think I am letting myself stay defeated, or that I am letting some kind of darkness stay locked up in my soul. I hope y'all are not saying that, because that would be very insulting. :(



Joe,

As long as&nbsp;you're leaning on God you're OK. &nbsp;

[Live4Jesus]

Joe, instead of leaning on mother mary all the time, has it ever occured to you to go straight to the throne? ask of Jesus?

Jesus said... whatever you ask, you shall receive... take Him on His word Joe ... He gave it to you for a reason...

what you waiting for bro?

[SnuP]

14th February 2003 at 01:06 PM Evening Mist said this in Post #64 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=653216#post653216)

Amen to that SnuP, and I do. And I think most Chrsitians do.

But fear is not always evil, and anger is not always evil, and sickness is not always evil. Sometimes fear is a promting from God to run. Sometimes anger is a promting from God to affect change. Sometimes sickeness is evidence of a battle going on in your body, and we can be encouraged by the fact that that battle is being faught on our behalf while we wait and "cope" until the final outcome.

to this I must agree hole heartedly

And when I am grocery shopping with 2 screaming kids and the lady behind me keeps running her cart into my heels, and I can't get my 2 year old up off the floor so that we can get to the milk aisle, and I am aware of the fact that when I got home I'll have to get the kids down for naps and get the groceries in and put away by myself -- and then my hands start shaking, and I get dizzy, and feel nauseous, and my vision becomes distored and I have trouble speaking ...... This is all because I am not strong enough in faith??? Maybe so. Maybe if I walked with the spirit more closely I could figure out how to feed my kids without going to the grocery store. I dunno.

the problem here is&nbsp;not the kids, or the duties or that nagging person behind you.&nbsp; the problem is stress and how you deal with that stress.&nbsp; I don't believe that it has anything to do with faith, rather it has to do with trust.&nbsp; Or more specifically whom you lean upon to help you handle your stress.&nbsp; Leaning upon yourself, your own strenght, your own wisdom, or your own coping only leads you to an imotional state where your mind doesn't want to handle the load any more.&nbsp; But Jesus said that we are to look to the Father.&nbsp; That is also what I meant about becoming more sensitive.&nbsp; For by looking to Him for His leading and answers you may find that He gives you the answers that you need to make everything run smoothly, the right words for that one lady, a way to make your kids asist you rather than hinder you.&nbsp; Or He may just give you a new way of looking at the situation so that you accually can coop.&nbsp; And the same would apply to humblejoe.

But SnuP this whole idea of faith healing is a pretty serious thing to consider. I knew a guy who had diabetes and he believed he was healed and went off his insulin. 2 days later he was found unconscious behind the wheel of his car after he went into shock and drove into a wall. Now you might say that his faith was obviously not strong enough or else that would never have happened. But what will you say when it happens again and he runs down an innocent child playing on the sidewalk? What will you say to that child's parents?

And what do you say to the battered wife, who prays every day for guidance and deliverance by the power of the holy spirit, who suffers from depression, anxiety, fear and pain. Who's husband tells her that everything would be fine if she were just a better Christian, and then slugs her again? Is it her own fault for not walking closely enough with the spirit?

What about my brain damaged clients? Do you have any idea how many times those men went to church, came home on fire for God and convinced that if they just had enough faith they would be healed and their life would go back to normal? So they would refuse their meds and then become violent and dangerous, threaten me, pull a knife of their roomate, and then start having seizures and have to be taken to the ER?



In all of these cases the core issue hasn't been dealt with.&nbsp; We already know that God is more conserned about the outside that the in.&nbsp; Say that God does heal these people, or deliver them.&nbsp; Take the batter wife since it is the easiest for me to draw a 'for instance' with.&nbsp; Even if God completely changes the man and fixes the marriage, that doesn't deal with why she married the man in the first place.&nbsp; the heart of a man is more important then the flesh of a man, and the attitudes of a man are more important then the circumstance.

You already know that cause and effect goveners the universe.&nbsp; Seed time and hearvest.&nbsp; Just as Jesus would cast out a demon and see a healing, or for give someones sins and see a healing, the cause of the desease, the reason that some one needs a healing/deliverance should be addressed so that the person can be truely free.&nbsp; And the cause is not always sin or demon, it might just be misconseption, or bad dicision making.&nbsp; But fixing the inside is more important than fixing the outside, expessially since the outside is so influenced by the inside.&nbsp; Scientist say that 85% of all diseases are caused by the way a person thinks.&nbsp; Even something as simple as achne is caused by stress.&nbsp; Most diseases are incured because of an ineffeciant immune system attributed to the inappropriate way a person deals with their environment.&nbsp; So there is more involved with a supernatural healing than just faith.&nbsp; If God allowed a sickness because of something wrong with the inner man, than fixing the outter man would belittle the point.

To answers Joe's question.&nbsp; No matter how good the cooping method, isn't complete deliverance better than just cooping.

[SpiritPsalmist]

Wow SnuP, your last line says so much. Just coping does not take away the problem. It just dresses the problem up and makes it look acceptable.

That's what I'm aiming at in my own life. Not just coping but getting rid of it all together. To me that's a much better choice.

Thank's SnuP,

Quaffer

[Caedmon]

Today at 12:51 AM SnuP said this in Post #79 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=656137#post656137)

To answers Joe's question.&nbsp; No matter how good the cooping method, isn't complete deliverance better than just cooping.

I'm sorry, but psychoses don't vanish in the blink of an eye. Coping is a step in the right direction, toward deliverance. You ask any person that's been through Alcoholics Anonymous if there is such a thing as instant deliverance.

It's the same thing as the concept of salvation. Salvation isn't a single moment, it's a lifestyle that spans a lifetime. It would be foolish to think that a person goes from completely sinful to a perfect saint in a single instant by saying a single prayer and "getting saved". Besides, what led up to that prayer? What things happened in that person's life that led up to that moment? How many times did God caress their heart gently, letting them know He was there, ready for them the moment that they were ready to acknowledge Him? Delivered in an instant? I don't think so...

[Andrew]

Salvation isn't a single moment, it's a lifestyle that spans a lifetime.

you're mixing up salvation (born again) with working out your salvation. you are saved in an instant (nobody takes a lifetime to get born) but you take a lifetime to understand, appreciate and walk in the fullness of your salvation.

Romans 10
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

this doesnt seem like its describing a lifetime process.

[4Jesus]

14th February 2003 at 01:00 AM Serving4Christ said this in Post #47 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=652497#post652497)

hmmm....don't know what to say about that one.&nbsp; Your head aint spinning 360 degrees is it?&nbsp; No split pea soup yet?&nbsp; just wondering...

Actually, panic attacks have been linked to low levels of serotonin in the brain, it is also shown to be a genetic process, passed down from generation to generation.&nbsp; The same&nbsp;medication used to treat depression has been proven to rid people of panic disorders.&nbsp; Several new developments in treating panic disorders have come within the past couple of years.&nbsp; Paxil&nbsp;seems to be the choice for ridding unwanted panic attacks, and a nice long prayer&nbsp;to God for the development of such great medicine!

&nbsp;:clap:

&nbsp;

As to why you have them?&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;



This post has made the most sense I have read so far! I personally was taking medication (too long of a story) and started having panic attacks. I realized it was the medication and when I stopped taking it the attacks stopped. If it was just a matter of prayer, then the example of Paul praying three times for relief and not getting it, is a lie. Thank God He has put a burden on the hearts of good men and women to become doctors.

[4Jesus]

14th February 2003 at 01:21 AM Michie said this in Post #50 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=652516#post652516)

Ok Andrew.

But i still think we disagree.

Not all illnesses or disorders are attributed to demons.

Christians do get ill, they do fear &amp; they do suffer.

Some do not get healed.

There are those in different countries that are hungry &amp; persecuted.

God promised us eternal life.

But I don't think He ever said things will always be easy here.

It is according to His will, not ours.

Sometimes things that according to our flesh are not pleasant but God seems to have the knack for turning these situations to His glory.

I have a real propblem with some of these lines of thinking because it seems to point the finger at the hurting.

I do not think it is possible for a believer indwelt with the Holy Spirit to be possessed with demons.

I don't see the two co-opting someone.

A house divided cannot stand.



Hey Michie! :wave:

I don't think I could have said it better. Paul was a&nbsp;prime example that&nbsp;Chrisitians suffer while they are on this earth but the Lord told him that His grace was sufficient for him. Some don't want to live by God's grace they want to believe they can control God&nbsp;with prayer or laying on of hands and correct everything "they" see as&nbsp;wrong. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

[Michie]

:wave: 4Jesus!

You said:
"I don't think I could have said it better. Paul was a prime example that Chrisitians suffer while they are on this earth but the Lord told him that His grace was sufficient for him. Some don't want to live by God's grace they want to believe they can control God with prayer or laying on of hands and correct everything "they" see as wrong."

Exactly!

Thank's! :)

[SpiritPsalmist]

Today at 01:52 PM Michie said this in Post #85 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=658773#post658773)

:wave: 4Jesus!

You said:
"I don't think I could have said it better. Paul was a prime example that Chrisitians suffer while they are on this earth but the Lord told him that His grace was sufficient for him. Some don't want to live by God's grace they want to believe they can control God with prayer or laying on of hands and correct everything "they" see as wrong."

Exactly!

Thank's! :)



As far as I can see no-one believes they can control God.&nbsp; If God says it that means it's the truth.&nbsp; Would anybody argue with that statement.

Since&nbsp;God is the One Who says it, that means that I can bank on the truth&nbsp;that God promised me healing, "by His stripes we are/were healed".

Yes, as long as we are on this earth we will suffer, but that does not involve sickness.&nbsp; Sickness may come, we may suffer, but that is not the suffering that was being referred to.&nbsp; The suffering being referred to in the scriptures is suffering for "the gospel", "for His Name sake".&nbsp;&nbsp; That goes way deeper than physical sickness.

By His grace being sufficient, God was saying, "Paul, everything you need is found in Me."&nbsp; Paul had a "thorn".&nbsp; As Paul learned to direct his attention more and more on the face of Jesus (we all could learn to do more of that. Paul was not exempt from being human), that "thorn"&nbsp; would no longer be a distraction because Paul's attention would be on the Lord.&nbsp; The Lord did not tell him "No". He told him to re-direct his attention.&nbsp; Off the thorn and on to Him.

[SnuP]

Yesterday at 06:55 PM humblejoe said this in Post #81 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=657225#post657225)

I'm sorry, but psychoses don't vanish in the blink of an eye. Coping is a step in the right direction, toward deliverance. You ask any person that's been through Alcoholics Anonymous if there is such a thing as instant deliverance.

It's the same thing as the concept of salvation. Salvation isn't a single moment, it's a lifestyle that spans a lifetime. It would be foolish to think that a person goes from completely sinful to a perfect saint in a single instant by saying a single prayer and "getting saved". Besides, what led up to that prayer? What things happened in that person's life that led up to that moment? How many times did God caress their heart gently, letting them know He was there, ready for them the moment that they were ready to acknowledge Him? Delivered in an instant? I don't think so...

Coping is trusting in man, deliverance is trusting in God.

[Caedmon]

Today at 10:25 PM SnuP said this in Post #87 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=659800#post659800)

Coping is trusting in man, deliverance is trusting in God.

Ah, well our definitions must differ, because using your statement, I believe that I am being delivered, by God, a little more every day.

Now if you see deliverance as an instantaneous event, again, I'll recommend that you ask anyone that's been through Alcoholics Anonymous whether or not instantaneous deliverance is a common reality.

The fact is, no matter what you call it, if a person is trying to get help for a problem that she has, then she is doing something, which is more than nothing, and I don't believe that a proactive mentality such as that can be anything but from God.

[SnuP]

Jesus is the only real answer. Any answer that does not include His way of delivering is not of God. Coping is mans answer that allows man to exist within life without having his darkness dealt with. It is darkness, do you really believe that God is satisfied with you just coping with it, when the prurpose of sending His Son was to remove all darkness from our lives.

And yes God does deliver achololics instantly.

[Caedmon]

Today at 11:22 PM SnuP said this in Post #89 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=659901#post659901)

Jesus is the only real answer.

Jesus's a cool guy. He gave me his Mother.

Any answer that does not include His way of delivering is not of God.

Don't I know it!

By the way, who "delivered" Jesus?

Coping is mans answer that allows man to exist within life without having his darkness dealt with.

Man's answer?

Then He said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" From that hour the disciple took her into his own household. - John 19:27, NASB

It is darkness, do you really believe that God is satisfied with you just coping with it, when the prurpose of sending His Son was to remove all darkness from our lives.

Darkness?

A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; - Revelation 12:1, NASB

And yes God does deliver achololics instantly.

I thought that alcoholism was an incurable condition that could only be coped with. But don't take my word for it, ask your family physician.

[Andrew]

Hey humblejoe,

Have you become a Catholic? I see your signatures have a lot to do with Mary. I find it strange for a protestant to be so 'in love' with Mary.

[Caedmon]

Today at 02:52 AM Andrew said this in Post #91 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=660148#post660148)

Have you become a Catholic?

Not yet... but I'm not a Protestant either.

I see your signatures have a lot to do with Mary. I find it strange for a protestant to be so 'in love' with Mary.

Why? :confused: Martin Luther was "in love" with her too.

[SnuP]

I do not rely upon a physician to determine spiritual truths.

Nor will I get in a discussion about your perticular way of coping, as it will only lead to a debate about the validity of certain dotrinal beliefs that can only result in one of us being warned by a moderator.

Let it suffice to say that I do not perticurally agree with your use of the persona of Mary as a tool for deliverance, as being biblical.

And that any coping method is substandard to the will of God for man to be free of darkness, and only leave the user of those methods inslaved to a deeper bondage.

After stating this I believe that this line of discussion should be terminated since we are obviouly at an impass and also for the reasons stated earlier.

But be blessed, and I hope you will not take this as comdemning of your beliefs.

[Caedmon]

Today at 12:13 AM SnuP said this in Post #93 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=662164#post662164)

I do not rely upon a physician to determine spiritual truths.

Nor will I get in a discussion about your perticular way of coping, as it will only lead to a debate about the validity of certain dotrinal beliefs that can only result in one of us being warned by a moderator.

Let it suffice to say that I do not perticurally agree with your use of the persona of Mary as a tool for deliverance, as being biblical.

And that any coping method is substandard to the will of God for man to be free of darkness, and only leave the user of those methods inslaved to a deeper bondage.

After stating this I believe that this line of discussion should be terminated since we are obviouly at an impass and also for the reasons stated earlier.

But be blessed, and I hope you will not take this as comdemning of your beliefs.

Not at all. :)

And with your permission, I'd like to start a new thread in IDD with your post.

[SnuP]

Please post the address to that discousion. I'd would be interested in whatever comes from it.

[Caedmon]

Here is my new thread in IDD: http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=664325#post664325

[4Jesus]

17th February 2003 at 02:11 PM Quaffer said this in Post #86 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=658922#post658922)


Yes, as long as we are on this earth we will suffer, but that does not involve sickness.&nbsp; Sickness may come, we may suffer, but that is not the suffering that was being referred to.&nbsp; The suffering being referred to in the scriptures is suffering for "the gospel", "for His Name sake".&nbsp;&nbsp; That goes way deeper than physical sickness.

By His grace being sufficient, God was saying, "Paul, everything you need is found in Me."&nbsp; Paul had a "thorn".&nbsp; As Paul learned to direct his attention more and more on the face of Jesus (we all could learn to do more of that. Paul was not exempt from being human), that "thorn"&nbsp; would no longer be a distraction because Paul's attention would be on the Lord.&nbsp; The Lord did not tell him "No". He told him to re-direct his attention.&nbsp; Off the thorn and on to Him.



What else could:


"a thorn in the flesh" 2Cor.12:5-7

mean :confused:&nbsp; And my tempation which was in my flesh ye dispised not, nor rejected; but recieved me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. Galatians 4:14

Paul's physical&nbsp;ailment may have been repulsive to the Galatians who viewed it. The purpose of his statement was: since you&nbsp;have treated me so well when I looked physically offensive, will you now mistreat me by embracing a false gospel?

[SnuP]

The problem is that you are making an asumption on this scripture. Why not just take the scripture at face value.

7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.

A messenger of satan. If sickness is a messenger of satan, what massage from satan would it be carring. For that matter, what message from satan is your sickness carring. And how does sickness deliver that message. Doesn't satan have better messengers then sickness to deliver his message? Like a messenger that can accually speak? Like a demon. How great is it a leap of logic to believe that the messenger of satan what an accually being that delivered messages, like say... a demon?

In addition the word buffet means to harrass, to prod, or poke. what sickness behaves in that matter?

[4Jesus]

Yesterday at 11:44 PM SnuP said this in Post #98 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=666679#post666679)

The problem is that you are making an asumption on this scripture. Why not just take the scripture at face value.

7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.

A messenger of satan. If sickness is a messenger of satan, what massage from satan would it be carring. For that matter, what message from satan is your sickness carring. And how does sickness deliver that message. Doesn't satan have better messengers then sickness to deliver his message? Like a messenger that can accually speak? Like a demon. How great is it a leap of logic to believe that the messenger of satan what an accually being that delivered messages, like say... a demon?

In addition the word buffet means to harrass, to prod, or poke. what sickness behaves in that matter?



Don't frustrate the word of God. Galatians 4:14...the temptation that was in my flesh, ye despised not....how could they see a prod or poke? It had to be something they could see for them to despise it. How could Paul be buffeted by a messenger of satan if it was not for the fact that God allowed it just as He did with Job.

[SnuP]

I can consede that these two scriptures might be related, but I will not make the assuption that they deffinately are. It is also not much of a logical leap to believe that what ever ailment Paul was refering to in Galations, he got over and was therefore able to leave. Since it was the ailment that caused him to stay and therefore giving position to the preaching of the gospel to them. Or one could say that Paul, like Jonah, wasn't listening to God, when he first attempted to leave and out of the lack of light God allowed a temperary ailment to hinders Paul's plans so that the message could go forth to the Galations also.

In any case, it does not mean that what is described in 2 cor is the exact same problem presented in Galations. And it would be another assumption on your part to say with certainty that it is.

[SpiritPsalmist]

20th February 2003 at 05:07 PM 4Jesus said this in Post #97 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=665791#post665791)

What else could:




mean :confused:&nbsp;

Paul's physical&nbsp;ailment may have been repulsive to the Galatians who viewed it. The purpose of his statement was: since you&nbsp;have treated me so well when I looked physically offensive, will you now mistreat me by embracing a false gospel?



"my temptation which was in my flesh". Sounds to me like it was something he got over.&nbsp;

As previously&nbsp;pointed out it's two different ref's in two different books, and there is nothing that signifies they were the same issue.&nbsp; And if it was, well. . .then we see it did not go to the grave with him. :)