Jews going to heaven?

[Crazy4Christ]

After all they are God's chosen people right? :o

[solo66 man]

According to revelation, there will be 144,000 Jews in heaven.

[JohnR7]

>>After all they are God's chosen people right?

By birth the only thing they were chosen to do was to safe guard the scriptures and even this was taken away from them.

Romans 3:1-2 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? [2] Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

You can say they had first hand information, because in their hands were the scriptures or the oracles of God. Still, they had to observe and do what the scriptures told them to do. They had to live by faith. If they were not faithful to perform them, they perished just like everyone else. It is Faith that makes us a child of Abraham, not birth. "Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham." Galatians 3:7

Still, one third of Isreal will be saved though fire.

Zech. 13:9
And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

[rwc109]

There were 12 tribes in Israel until Jacob adopted his 2 grandsons as well ,making 14 tribes [Joseph continued as a separate small tribe through his later offspring]
The Jews are only the tribe of Judah with half the tribe of Levi and smatterings of a few other tribes, the main part of Israel is not the house of Judah, but the house of Israel who were scattered among all nations and unlike Judah lost their identities in the world mostly...thus who can tell who is or is not Israel apart from the jews, there is a vast hidden nation of people descended from Israel out in the world!
The only tribes not chosen as the elect are Ephraim and Dan, but the twelve chosen are certainly mostly NOT Jews! [but some definitely are Jews]...then there is a vast uncountable multitude from all nations grafted in as well...read the end of this scripture! :-

Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

[Noa]

Originally posted by solo66 man
According to revelation, there will be 144,000 Jews in heaven.
I´m sorry, but I think you have to read it well: the 144.00 Jews are of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
So, the 6.000.000 Jews who killed by hitler are not saved?

I suggest to read the OT better :cool: The Bible is more than only the Revelation of Yeshua to John :D

[Noa]

Originally posted by Crazy4Christ
After all they are God's chosen people right? :o
Ofcourse they go to heaven. All Jews ans Israëli´s (Rom.11:25-26 after Zach.12:10) will accept Yeshua (Jesus)!

[2002 Christian]

Jesus was talking to a Jew:
John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John the Baptist was talking to Jews:
Luke 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Apostle John writing:
1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

[Noa]

Hi 2002 Christian,

I do not understand what you meant by giving these verses. I know them. I won´t ignore it. But do not ignore the promise of G´d that every Jew and every Israëli will accept Yeshua as their Messiah! I already gave the chapters and verses.

[Martin]

I have a different take on this....

I understand that Yeshua will return when the Jewish leaders realise that they have rejected the Messiah, repent of there sin, and call for Him to return. At the time Yeshua returns all Israel will be saved i.e. all the Jews at that time - not Jews that are living now.

The reason why there is so much anti-semitism in the world and the main reason for the Holocaust is that the enemy knows this. His strategy is simple - destroy all the Jews, then there will be no Jew to repent and call for Yeshua to return, Yeshua will not be able to return and He will have won (at least that's what he thinks, but God has promised to protect the remnant of Jews).

Blessings....

[2002 Christian]

Originally posted by Noa
But do not ignore the promise of G´d that every Jew and every Israëli will accept Yeshua as their Messiah! You are imposing an interpretation of Paul's meaning over the plain teaching of Jesus: "...condemned already."

[Noa]

Originally posted by Martin
I have a different take on this....

I understand that Yeshua will return when the Jewish leaders realise that they have rejected the Messiah, repent of there sin, and call for Him to return. At the time Yeshua returns all Israel will be saved i.e. all the Jews at that time - not Jews that are living now.

I have a different opinion. In Rom.11:26 Paulus told us that all Israëli´s will ben saved when all the gentiles will be in (Kindom of G´d; the rapture???). But I think Paul would be telling us when it does not concern the Jews ans Israëli´s in de past. All Israël (in these verse) is in mine opinion the past, present and future. Because of the fact G´d oversees this 3 times in one eyeblink.
Also we have to realise G´d have blinded the Jews and the Israëli´s for His Plan to save all the people.
Think about this: If the Jews never rejected Yeshua, the gospel won´t be told to the gentiles, unless they became a Jew.

This is not een wishfull thinking, if I´m wrong, I will (ofcourse) accept His decision.

The reason why there is so much anti-semitism in the world and the main reason for the Holocaust is that the enemy knows this.

true.

His strategy is simple - destroy all the Jews, then there will be no Jew to repent and call for Yeshua to return, Yeshua will not be able to return and He will have won (at least that's what he thinks, but God has promised to protect the remnant of Jews).

Blessings....
Amen.

Blessings :pink:

[Simonline]

Noa,

Bless you for your understanding...you are almost right.

When Paul teaches that "all Israel will be saved" he did not mean every single Israelite who ever lived (and certainly not every single citizen of the modern state of Israel many of which are gentiles.)

The guiding principle here is that salvation is by faith in Jesus. As it is written "The just shall live by faith." (Hab.2:4; Rom.1:17). There is no other way to be declared righteous either as an Israelite or as a gentile but to receive the righteousness of G'd as a free gift by faith. This was as true for Abraham ("And Abraham trusted G'd and it was credited to him as righteousness. Gen.15:6; Rom.4:3,22) as it is for us.

If this is not the case then it means that G'd has two means of salvation, by birth for Israelites but by faith for Gentiles? In other words you have to trust God as a gentile but you only have to be born an Israelite? Does this sound fair to you? (though it is what many Jews believe including the Jews of Jesus' day)

When Paul teaches that "all Israel will be saved" he uses the term "pas Israel" which is translated as "all Israel" but does not literally mean every single Israelite who has ever lived. The same phrase ("pas" - "all") is used in the gospels where the Pharisees were bemoaning the popularity of Jesus as he rode into Jerusalem on a donkey.

"So the Pharisees said to one another...look how the whole world has gone after him"(Jn.12:19).

Now the Pharisees obviously did not mean that every single person on the planet at that time was in Jerusalem following and cheering on Christ. What they meant was that representatives from many nations (who were in Jerusalem for the Passover) were now following Christ and hailing him as the Messiah. But they used this expression "the whole world" or "all the world" to refer to a representative group.

This is the way that Paul uses the term "pas Israel" in Romans. What he means is that the second advent and the events immediately leading up to it will have such a profound effect upon the inhabitants of Israel that most (but not necessarily all) of them will turn in repentance back to the one whom they have pierced.

Bearing in mind that during the period known as "the Great Tribulation/The time of Jacob's trouble" which will actually be a time of Divine Judgement upon all unbelievers - Jew and Gentile alike,  the forces of the Anti-Christ will have murdered two thirds of the Jewish people world wide so that only the one third (the remnant) will remain (as it is written "He who endures to the end will be saved" Matt.10:22). (Please note that this does not necessarily mean that all the murdered ones were unbelievers nor that the survivors were all believers). 

This is the correct interpretation of Matt.24:37-42 and actually has nothing to do with "the rapture" as many Dispensationalists believe. The key verse is verse 37 which says "As it was in the days of Noah so shall it be at the coming of the Son of Man". In other words everything will continue as "normal" "business as usual" right up to the very end when the judgement came/comes (the flood/the Great Tribulation).

And during that judgement who were the ones who were taken (judged) and who were the ones who were left (survived)? So when two men are out walking in a field which one will be taken, the believer or the unbeliever? Two women grinding corn at the milstone, which one will be taken and which one will be left? Get the picture?)

This means that at the end Israel as a nation will be a believing nation, having been judgmentally purged of it's unbelief, but not one of them will be saved because they were born Jewish but rather because they each trusted in Yeshua as their Messiah.

Tuff Stuff!

Simonline.

[Noa]

Originally posted by Simonline
Noa,

Bless you for your understanding...you are almost right.



Hi Simonline!


When Paul teaches that "all Israel will be saved" he did not mean every single Israelite who ever lived (and certainly not every single citizen of the modern state of Israel many of which are gentiles.)

The guiding principle here is that salvation is by faith in Jesus. As it is written "The just shall live by faith." (Hab.2:4; Rom.1:17). There is no other way to be declared righteous either as an Israelite or as a gentile but to receive the righteousness of G'd as a free gift by faith. This was as true for Abraham ("And Abraham trusted G'd and it was credited to him as righteousness. Gen.15:6; Rom.4:3,22) as it is for us.

If this is not the case then it means that G'd has two means of salvation, by birth for Israelites but by faith for Gentiles? In other words you have to trust God as a gentile but you only have to be born an Israelite? Does this sound fair to you? (though it is what many Jews believe including the Jews of Jesus' day)



We do not understand the ways of G´d. So what is fair and what is not fair... we are not able to judge. However, I can give you an example of my theory. First of all I always say: read the Word of G´d word for word.

Because of the remnant among the Israël´s (House of Israël) and the Jews (House of Judah) who believes, al Israëli´s are saved. For example: Eliah and the 7000 men. Or the nation in de desert of Sinai when thousands has been killed because of their sins, the rest of the nation was saved.

When we look at the facts, whole Israël should be destroyed because their sins were worse then the sins in Sodom and Gomorra BUT G´d kept His promise because of the faith of Abraham, Isaak and Jacob.



When Paul teaches that "all Israel will be saved" he uses the term "pas Israel" which is translated as "all Israel" but does not literally mean every single Israelite who has ever lived. The same phrase ("pas" - "all") is used in the gospels where the Pharisees were bemoaning the popularity of Jesus as he rode into Jerusalem on a donkey.

"So the Pharisees said to one another...look how the whole world has gone after him"(Jn.12:19).



We have to make a difference between the Jew and the false Jew. Maybe you have heard of the ´Jews´ but who are Edomits. The Edomits were infiltrated between the Pharisees. I´m talk about the descendants of Abraham, Isaak and Jacob (Rom.9-11).


Now the Pharisees obviously did not mean that every single person on the planet at that time was in Jerusalem following and cheering on Christ. What they meant was that representatives from many nations (who were in Jerusalem for the Passover) were now following Christ and hailing him as the Messiah. But they used this expression "the whole world" or "all the world" to refer to a representative group.

This is the way that Paul uses the term "pas Israel" in Romans. What he means is that the second advent and the events immediately leading up to it will have such a profound effect upon the inhabitants of Israel that most (but not necessarily all) of them will turn in repentance back to the one whom they have pierced.

Bearing in mind that during the period known as "the Great Tribulation/The time of Jacob's trouble" which will actually be a time of Divine Judgement upon all unbelievers - Jew and Gentile alike,  the forces of the Anti-Christ will have murdered two thirds of the Jewish people world wide so that only the one third (the remnant) will remain (as it is written "He who endures to the end will be saved" Matt.10:22). (Please note that this does not necessarily mean that all the murdered ones were unbelievers nor that the survivors were all believers). 

This is the correct interpretation of Matt.24:37-42 and actually has nothing to do with "the rapture" as many Dispensationalists believe. The key verse is verse 37 which says "As it was in the days of Noah so shall it be at the coming of the Son of Man". In other words everything will continue as "normal" "business as usual" right up to the very end when the judgement came/comes (the flood/the Great Tribulation).



I do not agree at all. I believe and know Matt. 24:37-42 ìs talking about the rapture. Like you read: But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be..
G´d brought 8 people in the Ark of Noah: eight is in the Hebrew language Sjmoné. Sjmoné  also means... the Messiah. This is a reference to His deliverance. The Ark means box. The Hebrew word for box is Vah. But Vah means the same as Milah. Milah means Word. Noah and his family were saved ans deliveranced by Milah/Word. Yeshua is Word (John 1). So I´m convinced Matt.24 is about the rapture. The way how G´d/Yeshua YHVH saved Noah and his family by the Ark/Word is a silhouette of the rapture. 


And during that judgement who were the ones who were taken (judged) and who were the ones who were left (survived)? So when two men are out walking in a field which one will be taken, the believer or the unbeliever? Two women grinding corn at the milstone, which one will be taken and which one will be left? Get the picture?)



The believer in Messiah. But this has nothing to do with the eternal life! I´m talking about etarnal life. I know a lot of Jews and Israëli´s will not be taken during the rapture. Only the  real reborn-christians, the Mess. jews and the Hebrew christians (jews who lives like gentile-christians).

This means that at the end Israel as a nation will be a believing nation, having been judgmentally purged of it's unbelief, but not one of them will be saved because they were born Jewish but rather because they each trusted in Yeshua as their Messiah.

Tuff Stuff!

Simonline.

I stil believe, because of the believing remnant all Jews and Israëli´s will be saved. Not for the rapture but will have an eternal live. Otherwise G´d would not promised Abraham with the convernant. Because of the faith of the remnant (Abraham) Israël will be saved. Rom.11:25-28 is very clear about that.

Do you really think that the 6.000.000 Jews who were killed by Hitler and sang the Sh´ma Yisrael when they entred the gasschambers, G´d didn´t give them the eternal live because they were blind for Yeshua? G´d made the Israëli´s and the Jews blind (except the remnant among israël through the ages. It was a punishment of the sins of whole Israël) so the gentiles will be saved! That is the one and only reason. Sha´ul (Paul) was very clear about that in Rom.9-11.

It is tuff stuff but with gardians of the Roeach Ha-Kodesh it is very clear.

Shalom and tnx for the reply! :pink:

Noa.

[Pray4Isrel]

The Jewish people are chosen yes but they must accept Yeshua (Jesus) as the Messiah.

[ZiSunka]

Originally posted by solo66 man
According to revelation, there will be 144,000 Jews in heaven.

I think you read it wrong. It says that there will be 144,000 messianic Jews working as evangelists on earth during the tribulation. They are not in heaven, they are spreading the Good News to the people left on earth after the rapture, since, at the rapture, all the believers will be whisked away.

[lared]

Jews are not THE chosen people.

They WERE God's chosen people at one time.

Today, his chosen people are the ones that are doing what he requests. And that is proclaiming the good news of God's kingdom.

(Matthew 24:14) And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.

[Noa]

What do YOU think... do you belong between the chosen ones????

Read Rom. 9-11 very well and Jer. 31! Maybe... it is better yet you read the WHOLE bible! :cry:

Noa

[lared]

What is your point?

[Chili]

Originally posted by Noa

Ofcourse they go to heaven. All Jews ans Israëli´s (Rom.11:25-26 after Zach.12:10) will accept Yeshua (Jesus)!

But Noa, when Jews accept Yeshua they become Christians and will enter heaven as Christians.

Does this not mean that there will be no Jews in heaven but only Christians?

 

[Noa]

Originally posted by Chili


But Noa, when Jews accept Yeshua they become Christians and will enter heaven as Christians.

Does this not mean that there will be no Jews in heaven but only Christians?

 

First you have to understand the meaning of the word ´Jew´. Jew is a Israeli who comes from the tribe of Judah or Benjamin. But it is also a believe.

From your persfective, I understand your questions and I can say: ´yes´, because every Israeli will see who Yeshua (Jesus) is and they will accept Him als their Messiah. BUT do not forget: the goj-christians are not able to make an Israeli in a Christian. There is a big difference! Only the Roeach is able to do that and you have to approache a Israeli different than a goj (not-Israeli).

Shalom!

Noa.

[Noa]

Originally posted by lared
What is your point?

Just read.

[Chili]

Originally posted by Noa


First you have to understand the meaning of the word ´Jew´. Jew is a Israeli who comes from the tribe of Judah or Benjamin. But it is also a believe.

From your persfective, I understand your questions and I can say: ´yes´, because every Israeli will see who Yeshua (Jesus) is and they will accept Him als their Messiah. BUT do not forget: the goj-christians are not able to make an Israeli in a Christian. There is a big difference! Only the Roeach is able to do that and you have to approache a Israeli different than a goj (not-Israeli).

Shalom!

Noa.

Noa I like your spirit and could not resist. Sorry if I surprised you. In the end heaven is for Christians only and I can assure you that it is available to Jews, who also happen to be my favorite people because I love their tradition and their faithfulness. I am a traditional [Dutch]Catholic who knows very little about Judaism and just wanted to compliment you on your determination. 

And peace to you also.

 

[Alida]

It's very simple: There is only one way to heaven and that is through Jesus Christ. Anyone who rejects Christ is not going to the Father. Very plain and simple. This includes the Jews. If a Jew rejects Christ....bingo! That's it! Same rules for everyone on the face of the earth. We'r not living in Old Testament Times anymore.

[Chili]

Originally posted by Alida
It's very simple: There is only one way to heaven and that is through Jesus Christ. Anyone who rejects Christ is not going to the Father. Very plain and simple. This includes the Jews. If a Jew rejects Christ....bingo! That's it! Same rules for everyone on the face of the earth. We'r not living in Old Testament Times anymore.

But Alida, we're not playing bingo here and you cannot consciously accept or reject Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and it does not matter here if you are Jew or Catholic or protestant because if it did matter this rule could not apply to everyone on the face of the earth!

It is true that salvation is the same for everyone on the face of the earth because it is archetypal to mankind and it is because of this that religion will become the last hindrance to overcome. Having said this I must add that religion is, or can be,  the right vehicle to prepare humans for this event. 

The problem we will encounter is that heaven is religion specific which now means that heaven is not for everyone on the face of this earth but for Christians only.

 

[Alida]

God says in order to go to Heaven, you must be born again.

In John 3:7, Jesus said to Nicodemus, "Ye must be born again."

To be born again means to have new life, to be saved. Saved from your sins, the very sins, if unforgiven, will condemn you before a Holy and Just God, Who will judge the living and the dead. Even being a church member, a religious person, or baptized does not make one born again.

How are you saved or born again?

First, you must realize you are a sinner. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).

"For the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23). Death not only means the end of this earthly life but this includes eternal separation from God, to spend eternity in a fiery Hell.

The Bible says, "...it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27).

But God loved you so much He gave His only begotten Son, Jesus, to bear your sin and die in your place. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

"...God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8).

God has said in His Holy Word, the Bible, that my sins and your sins were laid upon Jesus and He bled and died in our place. He took our sins upon Himself at the Cross and became our substitute. It is true. God cannot lie.

"God...commandeth all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30). This repentance is a change of mind that agrees with God that one is a sinner, turn from our sinful ways and accept what Jesus did for us on the Cross.

In Acts 16:30-31, a Philippian jailer asked Paul and Silas: "...'Sirs, what must I do to be saved?' And they said, 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved... .' "

Believe that Jesus is the one who bore your sin, shed His blood and died in your place, was buried, arose from the grave. Did you know according to the Bible, Jesus was seen by over 500 people after He arose and before He ascended into Heaven? Jesus’ sacrifice for you is a free gift. Will you accept it and be saved?

Be saved today and truly know that Heaven is yours!

"But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name" (John 1:12).

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13).

That whosoever in the verse above includes you.

Have your sins separated you from God and eternal life in Heaven?

In Luke 18:13, the sinner prayed: "God be merciful to me a sinner." You can pray and ask God to save you. You can be born again. Just pray: "Oh God, I know I am a sinner. I believe Jesus paid the debt I could not pay and was my substitute when He died on the Cross. I now receive Jesus as my Lord and Savior. Thank you, Lord, for saving me! Amen."

If you prayed for Jesus to save you and believe in your heart that Jesus saved you, then you are saved!

If you did not pray to receive Jesus as your Lord and Savior, remember your soul is worth more that all that is in the world.

"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul?" (Mark 8:36).

[Noa]

 

[Noa]

Originally posted by Chili


Noa I like your spirit and could not resist. Sorry if I surprised you. In the end heaven is for Christians only and I can assure you that it is available to Jews, who also happen to be my favorite people because I love their tradition and their faithfulness. I am a traditional [Dutch]Catholic who knows very little about Judaism and just wanted to compliment you on your determination. 

And peace to you also.

 

Hai Chili,

Maybe www.faq-online.nl (http://www.faq-online.nl/) is something for you, ´cause there are a lot of articles which contains interpretation of the relation between Yeshua and the Jews, Yeshua and the Christians and the Jews and the Christians. Ofcourse it is written in the Dutch language.

The source of my determination is Yeshua. But I want to thank you for your friendly reply :pink:

Baruch Yeshua HaAdon, He´ll bless you because of your view!

Noa

[Noa]

Originally posted by Alida   If a Jew rejects Christ....bingo! That's it! Same rules for everyone on the face of the earth. We'r not living in Old Testament Times anymore. [/B]

What bingo??? :mad: Do you think it is a game or something? Do you love Yeshua? Yes? Well you´ll PRAY for the Jews also and your heart will hope they will make it (surprise... they will!!), because bécause of the Jews you know Yeshua by now!

Alida, I guess you do not know the prophecy´s, otherwise, you would a: chose another words for this matter and b: you would KNOW all Israeli´s WILL accept Yeshua (Zarchary and Rom.9-11). ´

Noa.

 

[camaro540]

Originally posted by Alida
We'r not living in Old Testament Times anymore.

Are you sure of this? Who taught you this way of thinking? Is there really an old testament and a new testament? What about the book of Daniel, or Ezekiel? Have all these things come to pass already? How about the Passover? Did G-d do away with that or something?

 

It is all the Word of G-d plain and simple as you like to put it. Only problem is, its just not that simple.

 

Patrick

[Chili]

Originally posted by Alida
 
If you did not pray to receive Jesus as your Lord and Savior, remember your soul is worth more that all that is in the world. 



Hello alida, (nice name BTW and please know that my soul is not for sale).

Hmmmm, you surprised me and I would have never believed that a level headed Dutch girl (?) would write something like that.  

Indeed, you must be born again and have received new life. Christ must be reborn in you and after this "the old" must die while "the new" comes fully to life in Christ. 

I disagree that you must realize that you are a sinner because you must come as you are. That is, believe and repent instead of repent and believe.

Jesus was a Jew and I am a Catholic and just as Jesus died for the sins of his world so must I die to the sins of my world. That is why he told me to pick up my cross and follow him. I mean, Jews are great but so are Catholics.

You are mistaken in that Christ died because it was Jesus who died and he died for the liberation of Christ. If you read the gospels they will tell you that Bar-abbas was set free because there was nothing wrong with "Jesus the man" while "Jesus the Jew" was convicted by Jewish law and tradition.

"God cannot lie" but you must not forget that the NT was written by the Catholics for the soon to be Catholics.

Once again, I am surprised and did not know that the "saved sinner" complex is promoted in Holland with such precision.

I think you need a :priest: :P

[Alida]

Once again, I am surprised and did not know that the "saved sinner" complex is promoted in Holland with such precision.

I can be wrong, but it's my opinion that we are all sinners saved by grace.

"God cannot lie" but you must not forget that the NT was written by the Catholics for the soon to be Catholics.

The New Testament was written for all Christians, that includes the "20000" (= smile!) protestant denominations.





Originally posted by Alida If a Jew rejects Christ....bingo! That's it! Same rules for everyone on the face of the earth. We'r not living in Old Testament Times anymore.


What bingo??? Do you think it is a game or something? Do you love Yeshua? Yes?

No this is not a game. I used "bingo" as figure of speach. Don't worry.

you would KNOW all Israeli´s WILL accept Yeshua

I know some Jewish people, who passed on and did not accept Christ as their personal saviour. 

[Noa]

Hitler killed a lot of Jews who did not accept Yeshua! And you do not know, SURPISE, if they are in heaven or not. Do you believe they went to hell when they sang the Sh´ma Israël when they were put in de gaschambers? Think twice!

The NT is not written for the christians... Read Jeremia 31! First the Jew... then the Greek... I´m sorry!

Think about it and please use your word carefully. Because I won´t take such words as ´bingo´!!! When you post, please let the Roeach be your Guide!

Noa.

[Chili]

Originally posted by Alida


I can be wrong, but it's my opinion that we are all sinners saved by grace.

The New Testament was written for all Christians, that includes the "20000" (= smile!) protestant denominations. 



No, you are correct, but we Catholics have this eclectic interpetation wherein the saved are set free from the law and therefore also from the bondage  to slavery and sin. They get that from Gal. 5:1-4 wherein it may be read that it was for liberty that Christ freed us and that it is not a good idea to take upon us the yoke of slavery a second time. It goes on to say that those who again seek their justification in the law have been severed from Christ and fallen from Gods favor.

This is actually repeated several times to remind us that the law is for the conviction of sin and if indeed we are free in Christ we will be circumsized by his Immanent Will and have no need for the antiquated letter of the law. Hence he/she who is in Christ cannot sin (1Jn.3:9).

I would encourage you to claim this as yours and I am sure that if you keep your eyes on Christ you will be able to walk on the Celestial sea and so into the promised land. "Be not afraid" is our message here.

Yes, I was surprised by your post because I have never seen that put in such a refined way by a fellow country girl (but then, I am quite naive in this and actually resent the message of salvation). 

I know, the NT was written for all believers with the hope that they would become Christians in the manner of Jesus of Nazareth and not just be a stretch of their own imagination. 

 Alida is a special name for me because my sisters name is Alida Margareta Maria. I live in Canada now and the name is not known here.

 

[Alida]

Hitler killed a lot of Jews who did not accept Yeshua! And you do not know, SURPISE, if they are in heaven or not. Do you believe they went to hell when they sang the Sh´ma Israël when they were put in de gaschambers? Think twice!

The NT is not written for the christians... Read Jeremia 31! First the Jew... then the Greek... I´m sorry!

Think about it and please use your word carefully. Because I won´t take such words as ´bingo´!!! When you post, please let the Roeach be your Guide!

Noa.

I'm going by NT scripture, there's only one way to the Father and that's through Jesus Christ. Anyone rejecting Christ will not go to the Father. I don't know where the Jews from the concentration camps went to. God knows. Some could have been saved , others not, God knows.

The NT is not written for the christians

Huh?????
The NT is full of instructions for the Body of Christ.


It goes on to say that those who again seek their justification in the law have been severed from Christ and fallen from Gods favor.

Ooopsh, this might open up the can of worms about the "once saved-always saved" issue. Boy, that could become an exciting discussion.

I know, the NT was written for all believers ....

Right on! (....but that's not what Noa thinks)

[Chili]

Originally posted by Alida



Huh?????
The NT is full of instructions for the Body of Christ.

But the body of believers are not Christians as of yet. They are very much Christians-in-becoming. It is not until they are set free from sin that they are Christians because otherwise sinners would be allowed in heaven.


Ooopsh, this might open up the can of worms about the "once saved-always saved" issue. Boy, that could become an exciting discussion.


Yes it is a matter of definition, is it not? To "get saved" is just the beginning and not the end.


Right on! (....but that's not what Noa thinks) [/B]

Well Jews are believers and so are Greeks and so are all those who are called to be Jew by adoption of the OT. Many of these soon became known as Catholics. 

 Online at 5.45 AM?

[Alida]

But the body of believers are not Christians as of yet. They are very much Christians-in-becoming. It is not until they are set free from sin that they are Christians because otherwise sinners would be allowed in heaven.

They were not Christians yet? What about the New Testament Church? Did you read Acts? May I ask you which kind of church you go to? I like to know where this kind of teaching is coming from.

[Noa]

Alida,




First: Did you pick up your Bible and read the verses I gave you or didn´t you??? I do not think so, otherwise you´ll ask the Lord and then you KNEW what it happened in WOII. Do you care anyway??? Did you PRAY for Jews like G´d told US (also YOU) to do? :mad: Hmmmzzz... I wonder...

Second: The B´rit Chadasha (NT) is written BY Jews (exept Luke). I do NOT mean is it not written for YOU or me.

Third: Yeshua (Jesus Christ---> I translated for you) came for the Jews first. Read your Bible, I guess we have the same one. Paul forsaw people like you and told them right in the face what the facts are! I will put it on this forum so you HAVE to read it and think about it: 
19 Thou wilt say then, "The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in."
20  Thou sayest well! Because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear;
21  for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee.
22  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in His goodness. Otherwise, thou also shalt be cut off.
23  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24  For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree, how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25  For I, brethren, would not have you be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits: that blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
26  And so all Israel shall be saved, as it is written: "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
27  For this is My covenant unto them when I shall take away their sins."
Rom. 11:19-27 
Think about it... it is the Word of G´d.

Fourth: some people who did not lifed with Yeshua can be saved.
[12 For as many as have sinned apart from the law shall also perish apart from the law, and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law.
13  (For it is not the hearers of the law who are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14  For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, they, not having the law, are a law unto themselves,
15  which shows the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts meanwhile either accusing or excusing one another.)
16  Thus will it be on the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my Gospel.
Romans 2:12-16
*The Jews will be justied by the law (613 mitwot/rules of de Tenach/ OT), until the fullness of the Gentiles are in. Then they will be saved because of Yeshua.
*The Gentiles who know Yeshua will not be justified BECAUSE of Yeshua.
*The Gentiles who do not know Yeshua will be a law unto themselves and guess what is the resolve? Read the Rvelation of John.

Fifth: Maybe is will be nice if you will study the Bible instead of reading.  :sick:

Precisely! RIGHT ON! And do not forget the OT!

Noa



 

[Alida]

Can I ask you (again) which denomination or church you are connected with, as I like to know where you receive bible teaching?

P.S. Why the angry smilies?

[Noa]

Read your Personal Message (PM) I wrote 2 u.

My Teacher is the Roeach HaKodesh. Do not look up at people, look up at Hìm! So is it not important which demoniation of curch I´m connected... What I wrote is the truth.

Noa.

[Chili]

Originally posted by Alida


They were not Christians yet? What about the New Testament Church? Did you read Acts? May I ask you which kind of church you go to? I like to know where this kind of teaching is coming from.

I am actually a Catholic and many would call me a heretic. It is less important where I go to Church because Christians in the manner of Jesus of Nazareth leave their church and follow the "son of man [who] has no place to lie his/her head."

This really is about the definition of a Christian and I probably should have left it alone. To be called Christian we cannot be Catholic, Jew or protestant because just a Jesus left Judiasm to find his own destiny so must we leave our church and find our own destiny. The aim here is faith seeking understanding.

Sorry if I am obnoxious and will leave this alone if you don't respond.
  

 

[Noa]

Originally posted by Chili


I am actually a Catholic and many would call me a heretic. It is less important where I go to Church because Christians in the manner of Jesus of Nazareth leave their church and follow the "son of man [who] has no place to lie his/her head." 

...   

 

AMEN!!!

Baruch Yeshua HaAdon,

Noa

[Alida]

Chili, my question was for Noa. Sorry if you thought that I was replying to your post.

[Alida]

Sorry Noa, I understand that this is your field:

http://www.faq-online.nl/Verslagen/jodendom/sefer_jetsirah6.htm

and I just don't have the time to research it, and frankly I am not really interest in it.

[Noa]

Originally posted by Alida
Sorry Noa, I understand that this is your field:

http://www.faq-online.nl/Verslagen/jodendom/sefer_jetsirah6.htm

and I just don't have the time to research it, and frankly I am not really interest in it.  

Wow... :clap: you have found the FAQ-online-site in my profile. Do not study Kabbalistisc books. It is not for you ;-) You need to get the gift AND the reason to study it by the Roeach HaKodesh of Yeshua Messiah! That reason is not clear to you, but it doesn´t matter. Maybe you can ask me in an email first before you make any conclusions!!! :cool: 

What my field is? You do not know if you read just ONE thing of a site with articles; over 1500 A4 pages!!! Why do you want to know my background? Why that ´intrests´? I have as a reborn a lot of fields like all the others!

I send you a PM yesterday and you did not answer me, and you did not answer Chili´s postings and mine. If you don´t, I will stop to discuss with you also ! I do not like the way you are talking to me or to anyone overhere. Are you always acting like this?

Noa.

[Alida]

Your smilies indicated to me that you are angry and I wish not to discuss in an angry way. Angry discussions are useless.

[Alida]

There is only one way to heaven.The first step in salvation is to repent from sins we have committed and
commit our lives to Jesus. Repenting is realising that every sin that we
committed was borne by Jesus on the cross and that He suffered in our
place. For the sins we did with our hands, His hands were nailed to the
cross. For the sins we did with our feet, He was nailed in His feet and
fastened to the cross. For the sins we committed in our thoughts, He wore
the crown of thorns. See from His head, His hands, His feet; sorrow and
love flow mingling down; did ever such love and sorrow meet, or thorns
compose so rich a crown. The burden of our sins were so heavy that Jesus
could not bear the cross and fell down. He was chastised with stripes on
His back and blood came gushing out from His wounds. He was wounded for
our transgressions; He was bruised for our iniquities. The chastisement
for our sins was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed. Isaiah 53:5
(Please read the whole chapter 53).

If someone did this to our child would we ignore it? For God so loved the
world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever believeth on Him
should not perish but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son
into the world to condemn the world but that the world through Him might
be saved. For as many as believed Him to them He gave authority to
become the sons of God.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Chrjst and you shall be saved. This belief
will lead you to:

- repentance and confession of your sins
- obedience to the word in immersion baptism
- bold outward testimony of your faith to others
- desire to receive the Holy Spirit of promise
- baptism of the Holy Spirit
- worshipping God with Godly fellow believers
- preparation for the second coming of Christ

Salvation is free and no one is born with salvation. Salvation comes when one is born again. This is also for the Jewish people, they also will have to come to Christ for salvation. If a Jewish person rejects Christ, salvation is impossible for that person.

[Alida]

Wow... you have found the FAQ-online-site in my profile. Do not study Kabbalistisc books. It is not for you ;-) You need to get the gift AND the reason to study it by the Roeach HaKodesh of Yeshua Messiah! That reason is not clear to you, but it doesn´t matter. Maybe you can ask me in an email first before you make any conclusions!!!

No I did not look for anything in your profile. All one has to do is go to a search engine and search Roeach HaKodesh . I thought I clear this up as you have a wrong impression of what I did.

[Noa]

Roeach HaKodesh is the Holy Spirit in the Hebrew language.

Besides... you understood my field, you wrote...

[Alida]

Besides... you understood my field, you wrote...

No, I did not say that at all.
This is what I said: "Sorry Noa, I understand that this is your field"

[Noa]

I´m sorry, my English is not that good... I did not understand it I guess *grijns*

It is one of my fields.

Baruch Yeshua HaAdon!

Noa

[Alida]

Many time the languageproblem causes misunderstandings on these kind of forums. I said "bingo" before and having spend some time in an English community, this was said often and no one ever took offence to that expression. Other times North American English seem to come over different than Great Brittain English. I find that frustrating at times, because my messages and others messages have "clashed" in the past, and yet there was no intention to do that on purpose. I have found that translating from Dutch (in my mind as I am writing) to English, can give a total different value to the message than that was intended. Anyhow, see you later.