Demon Posession

[4Jesus]

Is it possible for a saved person to be demon possessed?

4Jesus

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by 4Jesus
Is it possible for a saved person to be demon possessed?

4Jesus

No.  When a person is saved the Holy Spirit dwells in that person and God will not be divided against Himself.

God bless

[Live4Jesus]

Nope. Holy spirit is part and piece of the armour of God.

but you can be harrassed a little bit. even attacked... I have a friend, she does these little prayer walks round her neighborhood... she tells me one time she was out walking praying,,, and she says just like this "And I was attacked!! The devil gave me this great big lump on my shoulder lasted 2 days!"

Just a for instance. But generally no. I've only been attacked when I was in some real bad places (she lives in a pretty bad neighborhood, its posible the Lord wanted her to know something...) generally He protects us at every corner and hedge... :)

[dignitized]

Two cannot cohabitate in the space for one. If Christ dwells within you, the demonic cannot also dwell within you. The demonic can however OPRESS you.

[Texas Lynn]

I believe "demons" are a myth. A person who claims to be demon-possessed needs mental health services.

[Blindfaith]

? So the demons that Jesus cast out is just a fairy tale? Just want some clarification :)

[dignitized]

lynn?? If they are a myth then scripture is a myth and our faith is also by default a myth.

[Andrew]

I believe "demons" are a myth.

then angels must be a myth too, and perhaps heaven and hell. Mental health services cant do anything abt demon possession. that;s why they have asylums, and the people are stuck there all their lives becos you cant cast out demons with medicine and psychology.

[fragmentsofdreams]

I believe that demons are real. However, I think that many people with mental conditions are misdiagnosed as being possessed by demons, although this occurs less now than in earlier times. I would leave the determination of which is which to exorcists and psychologists since they have experience dealing with demon posessions and mental disorders.

[dignitized]

psychology is a quack science.

[seebs]

I believe that, in the overwhelming majority of cases, "demons" is just a way to explain to people what's being done, and that the supernatural is not involved. Which would be more practical, do you think; to interrupt the crucial spreading of the Gospel to explain to people that, in fact, it wasn't a "demon", but rather, a chemical imbalance leading to problems with seratonin uptake... or to just say "look, it's better now" and let them think what they will?

God can be a bit of a pragmatist sometimes.

[fragmentsofdreams]

While psychology, like all of the social sciences, has difficulties, it isn't quack science.

[4Jesus]

Originally posted by fragmentsofdreams
I believe that demons are real. However, I think that many people with mental conditions are misdiagnosed as being possessed by demons, although this occurs less now than in earlier times. I would leave the determination of which is which to exorcists and psychologists since they have experience dealing with demon posessions and mental disorders.

Why would demon posession be happening less? Scripture says:Be sober, be vigilant, because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour. 1Peter 5:8

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by Br. Max
psychology is a quack science.
Hey we agree on something!

but counseling is sometimes good for people... like I met a Christian counselor once, she was nice, informative... didn't deny scripture...

[4Jesus]

Originally posted by Live4Jesus
Hey we agree on something!

but counseling is sometimes good for people... like I met a Christian counselor once, she was nice, informative... didn't deny scripture...

I think Chrisitan counseling has a place in believers lives. We expect ministers to be well rounded when it comes to their duties but the fact is there are ministers that are good with people but couldn't give a decent sermon if their lives depended on it and just the reverse and even though Chrisians in general are well meaning, they don't always know what to say or do for someone and at times, people need to talk.

I think a Chrisitan counselor that can use God's Word to direct us can ba a valuable asset for Christianity.  

[fragmentsofdreams]

Originally posted by 4Jesus
Why would demon posession be happening less? Scripture says:

I was saying that the misdiagnosis of mental disorders as demon possession happens less now than in previous times. I have no idea whether actual demon possession has increased or decreased.

[dignitized]

As we move closer to the "end," the devil will grow more and more brazen in his actions not LESS. ALL the while he will educe people to believe in him and his works less and less . . . .

[4Jesus]

Originally posted by Br. Max
As we move closer to the "end," the devil will grow more and more brazen in his actions not LESS. ALL the while he will educe people to believe in him and his works less and less . . . .

Didn't you mean to say more and more?

[Pray4Isrel]

Originally posted by 4Jesus
Why would demon posession be happening less? Scripture says:

Demon possession is happening more, not less than before.

I do not believe that a Believer can be possessed, but as was mentioned earlier, a Believer can be oppressed.  Two entirely different things. 

Matthew 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

[Terri]

Originally posted by 4Jesus
Is it possible for a saved person to be demon possessed?

4Jesus

Hi 4Jesus

No, I don't believe a saved person can be demon possessed!

[Annabel Lee]

Originally posted by Br. Max
psychology is a quack science.

There are quacks out there but for the most part I think it is fine.

My eldest daughter has an undergraduate degree in psychology and will have her Masters Degree in School Psychology in less than 2 years.

Yes, this was just another shameless opportunity for me to talk about my perfect daughter. :cool:

[Terri]

Originally posted by Br. Max
psychology is a quack science.

I think it is all quack, no science! ;)

[Annabel Lee]

Originally posted by Terri
I think it is all quack, no science! ;)

Any special reason?

[Terri]

Any special reason?

Annabel I've had a lot of experience with it.  One psychologist of mine even died of a drug overdose--probably suicide.  Even with my problems, I tried to help him--but couldn't.

Once I learned spiritual warfare and how to use the Word of God in the Bible just like Jesus did when he was tempted by satan--emotional problems were cured.

 

[dignitized]

Annabel: the thing about psychology/psychiatry is that they are completely arbitrary. I can put you in front of a room full of psychologists and you would be lucky if two people would give you the same diagnosis. How can we call it a science when there is no real standard? Its all a matter of how each psychologist is willing to interpret "symptoms."

[Mother Vashti]

I'm surprised no one else thinks that a believer can be demon-possessed. I believe they can.
Jesus said that we should be careful - a demon is cast out and dwells in dry places, before he decides to go back to his original home and he finds it conquered, swept, and furnished. He therefore retakes it with the help of several others, and the state of the man is worse that his former state.

[Terri]

Originally posted by Mother Vashti
I'm surprised no one else thinks that a believer can be demon-possessed. I believe they can.
Jesus said that we should be careful - a demon is cast out and dwells in dry places, before he decides to go back to his original home and he finds it conquered, swept, and furnished. He therefore retakes it with the help of several others, and the state of the man is worse that his former state.

Hi Vashti !  :wave:

I believe this is referring to an unsaved person.  When a demon is cast out of an unbeliever, and they don't have the Holy Spirit, the demon can return, bringing others with it.

[JohnR7]

Originally posted by Pray4Isrel
I do not believe that a Believer can be possessed, but as was mentioned earlier, a Believer can be oppressed.  Two entirely different things.

They can be repressed, but they do not have to be. What we have to make sure is that we have the mind of Christ and the divine thoughts of God. We do not want to allow the demons to do our thinking for us.

I am pretty careful about watching TV, because I do not want a lot of worldly thinking to influence me. I want to have the mind of Christ and I want His attitude all the time, not just part time.

[Mother Vashti]

That occured to me as well, Terri. Perhaps your right.

[4Jesus]

Originally posted by JohnR7
They can be repressed, but they do not have to be. What we have to make sure is that we have the mind of Christ and the divine thoughts of God. We do not want to allow the demons to do our thinking for us.

I am pretty careful about watching TV, because I do not want a lot of worldly thinking to influence me. I want to have the mind of Christ and I want His attitude all the time, not just part time.

Thanx John, That's good advice. A lot of worldly concepts have entered the lives of mainstream Christianity. There are people that think reading their horoscope is a harmless thing to do but they dont realize this sort of thing has its counterpart in the bible as witchcraft.   

[EveOfGrace]

That occured to me as well, Terri. Perhaps your right Mother Vashti dont back down from your original belief, you were right the first time.

When we say 'possessed' we are genarally refferring to the greek daimonizomai which means: to be exercised by a demon -have a or be vexed with, be possessed with.

A christian is not exempt from this if they have left certain behaviors caused by sins unrepented.  

Possession does NOT mean ownership. A Christian is IN Christ, set free from captivity and returned (repent) re=return pent=highest place to the place that Adam held to start with. Dominion.

Someone said earlier, that God cannot dwell inside the same temple with a demon. I suggest reading Ezekiel ch. 8-10.

We, Christians are told, not before becoming one but after, to 'cleanse ourself from all filthiness of the flesh'. Filthiness? If that is not open grounds for nasty, smelly, blackhearted demons then what is.

EveOfGrace

 

[EveOfGrace]

Oh yeah, one more thing. Matthew 10:8 was also quoted:Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons.  Freely you have recieved, freely give.

If casting out demons is including in that verse as something we should ALL be doing, along with cleansing lepers, raising the dead and healing the sick, then by those standards, A Christian cannot be sick either.

It is silly to presume that SOME of those things mentioned cannot come upon us, but yet others can. Its either one way, or no way.

EveOfGrace  

 

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by Mother Vashti
I'm surprised no one else thinks that a believer can be demon-possessed. I believe they can.
Jesus said that we should be careful - a demon is cast out and dwells in dry places, before he decides to go back to his original home and he finds it conquered, swept, and furnished. He therefore retakes it with the help of several others, and the state of the man is worse that his former state.

thats why you need the Holy spirit to fill up the space they leave behind...

the armour of God, got to put it on. Theres knowledge too thats neccessary... Holy spirit needs the right attitude and awareness from you...

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by EveOfGrace
Oh yeah, one more thing. Matthew 10:8 was also quoted:Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons.  Freely you have recieved, freely give.

If casting out demons is including in that verse as something we should ALL be doing, along with cleansing lepers, raising the dead and healing the sick, then by those standards, A Christian cannot be sick either.

It is silly to presume that SOME of those things mentioned cannot come upon us, but yet others can. Its either one way, or no way.

EveOfGrace  

 

There are pastors who do it all. Go exploring... they're there. You have to be walking just about perfectly with God to do these things, most of us are probably somewhere in between...

I can get rid of demons though. And illnesses sometimes too. Actually its the Holy Spirit that does it.

So I guess if you doubt as you do, then you probably don't believe in the Holy Spirit either.

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by JohnR7
They can be repressed, but they do not have to be. What we have to make sure is that we have the mind of Christ and the divine thoughts of God. We do not want to allow the demons to do our thinking for us.

I am pretty careful about watching TV, because I do not want a lot of worldly thinking to influence me. I want to have the mind of Christ and I want His attitude all the time, not just part time.

Thats right John.

:clap:

[4Jesus]

Originally posted by Live4Jesus
There are pastors who do it all. Go exploring... they're there.

Do you believe that only an ordained pastor has this power and what are your thoughts on Mark 16:18?

[Terri]

EveOfGrace I suggest you read the verse below.  It specifically says the house is unoccupied, swept clean and put in order.  There is no filthiness of the flesh as you suggest.

EveOfGrace are you catholic?  That might explain some of our different beliefs.

MT 12:43 "When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44 Then it says, `I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45 Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first.

[Terri]

Originally posted by EveOfGrace
Oh yeah, one more thing. Matthew 10:8 was also quoted:Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons.  Freely you have recieved, freely give.

If casting out demons is including in that verse as something we should ALL be doing, along with cleansing lepers, raising the dead and healing the sick, then by those standards, A Christian cannot be sick either.

It is silly to presume that SOME of those things mentioned cannot come upon us, but yet others can. Its either one way, or no way.

EveOfGrace  

 

I won't be unkind and say your reasoning is silly, but it is definitely flawed.  :)  

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Mother Vashti
I'm surprised no one else thinks that a believer can be demon-possessed. I believe they can.
Jesus said that we should be careful - a demon is cast out and dwells in dry places, before he decides to go back to his original home and he finds it conquered, swept, and furnished. He therefore retakes it with the help of several others, and the state of the man is worse that his former state.

In my experience I would shy away from saying possessed.  The term I tend to use is demonized.  Meaning a demon is hanging on, and causing a great deal of havic in the life of the person demonized. 

When we come to Jesus, generally, we come with a lot of baggage that does not just drop away when our sins are forgiven.  Yes, we are made brand new and white as snow but unless the people are delievered as well as saved there still quite possibly remains the demons that have tormented them from before.

These people are not possessed by the demons, they are oppressed.  The demons can be cast off and the person then instructed on how to live a life that is holy before the Lord so the demons do not come back, with others and take up residense again ON the believer.

Quaffer

[4Jesus]

Originally posted by EveOfGrace


Someone said earlier, that God cannot dwell inside the same temple with a demon. I suggest reading Ezekiel ch. 8-10. 


EveOfGrace

 

 Can you explain what you mean by this?

The passage in Matt.12:43-45 is addressed to Israel as a nation. Only by inviting Jesus to be the honored guest and head of the home could Israel know the full blessing of God.

 If we look at the OT we see that the law rewarding salvation by good works and the NT salvation by grace have the same thing in common, they both expose sin and bring helpless sinners to depend on the mercy of God. Hebrews 11 expressly states that the OT saints died placing their faith in God and since their perfection could not come by the law, it is grace that they depended on. When we look at the example of some of these people they constantly had to battle with their human natures but they had faith that God is merciful.

Job even declared:For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. (Job 19:25-27)

 

[Terri]

Now I definitely believe a believer can be oppressed.  Been there--done that!  ;)

Don't believe casting off is absolutely necessary for a Christian.  In my case just learning to put on the armor of God was more than enough!  ;)

Don't care for the term demonized--makes it sound like they are possessed which I don't think is possible.

 

[Terri]

Originally posted by EveOfGrace
Someone said earlier, that God cannot dwell inside the same temple with a demon. I suggest reading Ezekiel ch. 8-10. 
 

I don't get what you are trying to say.  :eek: Are you saying that the Holy Spirit can live within a person along with a demon?

The Holy Spirit came at Pentecost--what could Ezekiel have to do with that?

[4Jesus]

Terri, see my post #40. I gave the reason for Jesus saying what he did in Matt.12:43-45.

Gee I sure like yur flashy smilie face, I snagged a copy of it for my private collection!

[Terri]

Originally posted by 4Jesus
Terri, see my post #40. I gave the reason for Jesus saying what he did in Matt.12:43-45.

Gee I sure like yur flashy smilie face, I snagged a copy of it for my private collection!

Thanks 4Jesus!

 :eek: Give me back my smilie face!    :P  :D 

 

[4Jesus]

Originally posted by Terri
Thanks 4Jesus!

 :eek: Give me back my smilie face!    :P  :D 

 

Nay nay never! Tis mine, Yeow-zer, but how about a hug for it? :hug:

[Terri]

Originally posted by 4Jesus
Nay nay never! Tis mine, Yeow-zer, but how about a hug for it? :hug:

 :D

:hug:

 

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by Terri
I don't get what you are trying to say.  :eek: Are you saying that the Holy Spirit can live within a person along with a demon?

The Holy Spirit came at Pentecost--what could Ezekiel have to do with that?

Paul the apostle says he had a thorn in his side... but it wasn't life threatening by any means, he relates how the Lord left it to remind him of his humanity.... more or less...

I think part of this life and being saved is learning to discern Jesus' voice from the world and spirtis of the world around us... and even in Paul's case, possibly within, for the better, to fully strengthen us both inward and out...

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by 4Jesus
Do you believe that only an ordained pastor has this power and what are your thoughts on Mark 16:18?

No, I just pointed that direction for Eve because Pastors are easier to spot...

Cmon over here 4Jesus we'll get rid of your demons no problems, with very few words as well....

They don't like me. oh well.

'Couse then again you will have to walk back into the world, so best you pray, ask Jesus, and gain that knowledge completely for yourself because its not all that simple, more than a days lesson... and then how to work with the Holy Ghost in that capacity...

[4Jesus]

Hello Live4Jesus, You must have missed it, in post #36 I asked you about a comment you made in post #34. Could you please answer me?

Thanks

4Jesus 

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by Quaffer
In my experience I would shy away from saying possessed.  The term I tend to use is demonized.  Meaning a demon is hanging on, and causing a great deal of havic in the life of the person demonized. 

When we come to Jesus, generally, we come with a lot of baggage that does not just drop away when our sins are forgiven.  Yes, we are made brand new and white as snow but unless the people are delievered as well as saved there still quite possibly remains the demons that have tormented them from before.

These people are not possessed by the demons, they are oppressed.  The demons can be cast off and the person then instructed on how to live a life that is holy before the Lord so the demons do not come back, with others and take up residense again ON the believer.

Quaffer

That's exactly right Quaffer, God bless you.

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by 4Jesus
Hello Live4Jesus, You must have missed it, in post #36 I asked you about a comment you made in post #34. Could you please answer me?

Thanks

4Jesus 

I said I pointed her in the direction of Pastors (add in - with these gifts) because they are easier to spot.

for instance she would never find me I am not listed in the phone book under that category.

of course, in the right church she would meet many who also have these gifts of the spirit, if she looked.

Does that help?

Insofar as Mark 16:18, are you suggesting serpents here as being related to demons? you may be right, I actually never considered that passage like that...

I like it though...

Far as healing, we do that here too, with my daughter I sit her rght on my lap till whatever it is goes...

Let the Holy spirit that is in me get all over her you know? Literally...

Laying on of hands they do real well at our church as well, a couple mighty warriors over there.... the group intercession is real powerful stuff....

[4Jesus]

Originally posted by Live4Jesus
I said I pointed her in the direction of Pastors (add in - with these gifts) because they are easier to spot.

for instance she would never find me I am not listed in the phone book under that category.

of course, in the right church she would meet many who also have these gifts of the spirit, if she looked.

Does that help?

Insofar as Mark 16:18, are you suggesting serpents here as being related to demons? you may be right, I actually never considered that passage like that... 

If we go back to Matt.10:1, we find that the gift of healing was given to the disciples. In Mark 16:18 Jesus told the disciples that they would be able to lay hands on the sick and they would recover. In Acts 4:30 we see that healing is connected with "signs and wonders" just as it is in Mark 16:20 where it says that certain signs would be used to [U]confirm the word[U] since there wasn't any NT, the un-believing Jews needed a sign that what the apostles were saying about Jesus was the truth. Again in 1Cor.12:9 the gift of healing is mentioned. But why aren't the sign gifts mentioned in the list of gifts in Ephesians 4:8-16?

No I wasn't suggesting that serpents are related to demons. I was pointing out that handling serpents and not being harmed by drinking poison was also sign gifts given to the apostles along with healing. So are people to do those also?

[EveOfGrace]

First, to terri, no, i am not catholic.

Next, i do know pastors can cast out demons and heal the sick. I dont know, or am not sure rather, what live4jesus meant by that. 

Anyone, who is born of God, and believes, as stated in Mark 16:17 will have these signs. Including you, including me.

What i meant in Ezekiel 8-10 is the picture of the temple of God, where the holy of holies was located. The OT i know is not an age of grace and this is not what i am referring. We, are now the temple of God, where the Holy Spirit dwells. In Solomons temple(in Ezekiel) the presence of God dwelt.  A type and shadow, as was many things in the OT so they could understand a true picture of Christ to come. As in Hebrews 9, the old tabernacle compared with the new. In John, .....the word was made flesh and DWELT among us. Dwelt there means..to tabernacle.  The old covenant is a picture of the new.

So ok,  in Ezekiel, God transports him (in spirit) from Babylon to Jeruselem to show him the defilement of His temple. The east gate had the seat of an image of jealousy, the north gate was its altar. It doesnt clearly say what the idol looked like, but we do know, as Paul even sais(1Cor.10:19-20) idol sacrifice is done to devils.  They are present here by the brazen alter. Then on the walls, inside the temple, are the images of all thier idols drawn on them.  Then we see the woman, just inside the north gate, weeping for Tammuz, a demon god. Then of course the worst abomination of all, between the porch and the altar, the worship of the sun. The sun god Osirus, the egyptian name of Nimrod, who is supposedly Tammuz incarnate.

Its a picture of the temple of God, in which was STILL Gods presence at the SAME time as these demons were being worshipped, and present. God tarried 100 years in the same house, His house with these demon worshippers bringing in thier own gods(devils,demons) before He finally withdrew His presence. Defilement of His temple took place and He REMAINED for a period of time.

Now the new testament. 1Cor.3:16-17, Paul telling us not to defile(theres the same word as Ezekiel) the temple of God, which temple we are. If we defile it, God will destroy it.  If it WERENT possible to do that, to house Holy Spirit and an unclean spirit inside it, thereby defiling it, Paul would have no need to mention it, to CHRISTIANS.  If we do, we will eventually be destroyed.  If we continually practice a temple defiling sin, openning the door to demons, like say...consulting a psychic, or homosexuality, or drugs, that thing, that sin WILL destroy us, ie, aids, brain damage etc.

That is what i meant by Paul telling us to 'cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh AND spirit".  And in 2Cor 6:14 he tells us...dont be unequally yoked, Christ and Belial have no fellowship And 'what agreement hath the temple of God with idols?" He tells the Christians at Corinth(obviously some already were) NOT to touch the unclean thing.

What i meant by Matt. saying, cleanse the lepers, heal the sick, cast out demons etc... is that Christians are those who should be healing, casting, raising. Are they doing this for the unsaved or saved?  That is the question, or rather statement i was posing. It they are healing, and casting NONbelievers, then NONE of those things should be HAPENNING to Christians.

But i am saying, THEY CAN. If you exlude one, like having demons, and say.....oh that is for the unbelieving, then you cannot say in the same breath... but a believer CAN be sick. Does a virus live ON you? or IN you? 

As for casting demons OFF that is not biblical. It sais: cast OUT demons. Then they live IN. Like the scripture Terri posted, when the unclean spirit goes OUT of a man, he returns to find the house empty, swept and in order.  Empty and swept? That is INSIDE. Which is the point.  Dont just empty your house, sweep it and put it in order, but KEEP sweeping and FILL it. You cant clean your apartment and just leave it, it WILL need sweeping every day. Or at least mine does.

The ministry i work in involves helping people out of the occult. Many of them come to Jesus FILLED with all manner of demons. Alot of which are rooted there from either childhood or generational curses and do not automatically leave when the person gives their lives and heart to the Lord. They have to clean, and sweep and FILL every area, which takes time. They are currently Christians, and no one can tell me they do not love the Lord with all their hearts. I see the tears, the anguish, the anger and all other manner of seeking to be totally free.  And some are. Some, are still sweeping. 

The armor of God was mentioned. And yes, that armour protects us. But read it carefully, it sais 'PUT ON the whole armor".  Its an action WE take and must continue taking. IF we dont, IF we put that sword down, we have no way to fight.  If we break an hedge, a serpent WILL bite.

EveOfGrace    

[4Jesus]

I think we need to remember not to attribute every sin or base behavior to demon influence or posession. More often than not, the evil that people do is simply the reuslt of giving into the weakness in their old nature.

Jesus said:For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man. Mark 7:20-23

Paul said:

 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Romans 6:6And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is the good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Romans 12:2

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by EveOfGrace
First, to terri, no, i am not catholic.

Next, i do know pastors can cast out demons and heal the sick. I dont know, or am not sure rather, what live4jesus meant by that. 

Anyone, who is born of God, and believes, as stated in Mark 16:17 will have these signs. Including you, including me.

What i meant in Ezekiel 8-10 is the picture of the temple of God, where the holy of holies was located. The OT i know is not an age of grace and this is not what i am referring. We, are now the temple of God, where the Holy Spirit dwells. In Solomons temple(in Ezekiel) the presence of God dwelt.  A type and shadow, as was many things in the OT so they could understand a true picture of Christ to come. As in Hebrews 9, the old tabernacle compared with the new. In John, .....the word was made flesh and DWELT among us. Dwelt there means..to tabernacle.  The old covenant is a picture of the new.

So ok,  in Ezekiel, God transports him (in spirit) from Babylon to Jeruselem to show him the defilement of His temple. The east gate had the seat of an image of jealousy, the north gate was its altar. It doesnt clearly say what the idol looked like, but we do know, as Paul even sais(1Cor.10:19-20) idol sacrifice is done to devils.  They are present here by the brazen alter. Then on the walls, inside the temple, are the images of all thier idols drawn on them.  Then we see the woman, just inside the north gate, weeping for Tammuz, a demon god. Then of course the worst abomination of all, between the porch and the altar, the worship of the sun. The sun god Osirus, the egyptian name of Nimrod, who is supposedly Tammuz incarnate.

Its a picture of the temple of God, in which was STILL Gods presence at the SAME time as these demons were being worshipped, and present. God tarried 100 years in the same house, His house with these demon worshippers bringing in thier own gods(devils,demons) before He finally withdrew His presence. Defilement of His temple took place and He REMAINED for a period of time.

Now the new testament. 1Cor.3:16-17, Paul telling us not to defile(theres the same word as Ezekiel) the temple of God, which temple we are. If we defile it, God will destroy it.  If it WERENT possible to do that, to house Holy Spirit and an unclean spirit inside it, thereby defiling it, Paul would have no need to mention it, to CHRISTIANS.  If we do, we will eventually be destroyed.  If we continually practice a temple defiling sin, openning the door to demons, like say...consulting a psychic, or homosexuality, or drugs, that thing, that sin WILL destroy us, ie, aids, brain damage etc.

That is what i meant by Paul telling us to 'cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh AND spirit".  And in 2Cor 6:14 he tells us...dont be unequally yoked, Christ and Belial have no fellowship And 'what agreement hath the temple of God with idols?" He tells the Christians at Corinth(obviously some already were) NOT to touch the unclean thing.

What i meant by Matt. saying, cleanse the lepers, heal the sick, cast out demons etc... is that Christians are those who should be healing, casting, raising. Are they doing this for the unsaved or saved?  That is the question, or rather statement i was posing. It they are healing, and casting NONbelievers, then NONE of those things should be HAPENNING to Christians.

But i am saying, THEY CAN. If you exlude one, like having demons, and say.....oh that is for the unbelieving, then you cannot say in the same breath... but a believer CAN be sick. Does a virus live ON you? or IN you? 

As for casting demons OFF that is not biblical. It sais: cast OUT demons. Then they live IN. Like the scripture Terri posted, when the unclean spirit goes OUT of a man, he returns to find the house empty, swept and in order.  Empty and swept? That is INSIDE. Which is the point.  Dont just empty your house, sweep it and put it in order, but KEEP sweeping and FILL it. You cant clean your apartment and just leave it, it WILL need sweeping every day. Or at least mine does.

The ministry i work in involves helping people out of the occult. Many of them come to Jesus FILLED with all manner of demons. Alot of which are rooted there from either childhood or generational curses and do not automatically leave when the person gives their lives and heart to the Lord. They have to clean, and sweep and FILL every area, which takes time. They are currently Christians, and no one can tell me they do not love the Lord with all their hearts. I see the tears, the anguish, the anger and all other manner of seeking to be totally free.  And some are. Some, are still sweeping. 

The armor of God was mentioned. And yes, that armour protects us. But read it carefully, it sais 'PUT ON the whole armor".  Its an action WE take and must continue taking. IF we dont, IF we put that sword down, we have no way to fight.  If we break an hedge, a serpent WILL bite.

EveOfGrace    

I agree with most of what you said.  And whether the demon is on or in, it can be cast out or away. Either way, it does not have a host anymore. 

We had one lady in our church who came out of Budihism.  She accepted the Lord and the joy of the Lord was all over her.  Yet there were still many demons tormenting her and her sons. 

Gradually, as those demons would manifest we cast them out.  She is a walking testimony to the power of the Holy Spirit and the changes He brings when He enters.  

People tend to freak out when you use the word possession.  The church I first began to learn this in and the church I currently tend use demonized instead possession. 

I believe, that when a person becomes filled with the Holy Spirit, he is possessed by the Holy Spirit.  The demons are being kicked out but they are puttin' up a fight and  are hanging on for as long as the person allows them to stay. This is most frequently done in ignorance and or fear and shame.

Churches need to do more teaching on this issue.  It's not something to be ashamed of.  The person needs deliverance and then needs to be taught how to stay delivered.

If one keeps going back to the things that brought the demons on in the first place they can expect that the demons will return, with more.

Quaffer

[4Jesus]

Originally posted by Quaffer
If one keeps going back to the things that brought the demons on in the first place they can expect that the demons will return, with more.

Quaffer

I really find this hard to believe that a person can be filled with the dynamics of the Holy Spirit and still be demon filled. :(  Nope, that just doesn't sound right. 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by 4Jesus
I really find this hard to believe that a person can be filled with the dynamics of the Holy Spirit and still be demon filled. :(  Nope, that just doesn't sound right. 

It did not sound right to me eigher, the first time I heard it.  And that's exactly why I don't use the word possession.  I don't believe the person is filled demons but yet there can still be demons hanging on and tormenting them.

The woman I told you about had very real manifestations of demons.  After she had accepted Jesus as Lord.  Their voices were coming out of her mouth.  And we very really, cast them out, off, whatever . . .we made them leave.  Then we instructed her on how to keep them gone, never to return.

Why do some still struggle so much with lust, and alcohol, and drugs, and etc. after they have asked Jesus into their hearts?  There are demonic forces attached to these kinds of activities.  They don't just leave of their own free will. 

Out of ignorance, the person, not understanding what is going on thinks that they are just too weak to overcome.  Then they give up and fall back into their old way of life.  Yes, some of it is just the flesh rearing up and that needs to be brought under the subjection of Christ.  But there is also a world of difference in the struggle if there are demons involved.

There is no need to fear for those who are living in righteousness.  Those who need to fear are those who are living in rebellion to what Christ teaches and are doing what they want to do because they want to do it.  Totally ignoring what God says.

When a person is filled with the dynamics of the Holy Spirit, he will NOT join himself to a prostitute, he will not go out and live a life of drunkeness, etc.  If one continues to live this kind of lifestyle after accepting Jesus, we can assume he may be full of a spirit but it is not Holy.

Quaffer

[4Jesus]

Quaffer,

Believers cannot fall prey to demon possession and that means that demons invade the body of the believer. You need to put some thought into the woman you are talking about and her spiritual condition. If demonic sounds were coming out of her mouth (and how do you know they were really demonic and not good acting on her part?), that contradicts what scripture says:Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 1Cor.6:19 Can you seriously believe that God will reside in the same place with demons?

Demon possession is distinct from demon influence. In demonic influence which can affect both believers and un-believers, a person surrenders their thinking to false concepts and human viewpoints called "doctrines of demons" (1Tim.4:10.

Demonic influence can lead to posession. The Epistles are strangely silent about true posession. Contrary to what might be expected, the Greek verb for "cast out" is ekballo, not (exorkizo, from which we get the English noun "exorcist"). The verb exorkizo is never used in the NT to describe the removal of a demon. The noun exorkistes or "exorcist" and its congugate verb horkizo "to charge under oath, adjure, implore," are used of religious practitioners who attempted to expel demons by uttering mysterious incantations (Acts 10:13). Exorcism, therefore, is a pagan ritual devised to evict demons by means of religious oaths. Ekballo is used throughout the NT when Jesus or the diciples cast out demons. Jesus cast out demons; He never exorcised a demon.

Believing in Jesus is what liberates the un-believer from any demon who posesses them. The exorcism deliverance ministries that have sprung up are not in line with God's plan. The apparant success of those who engage in exorcism can be attributed either to the cooperation of satan, to demon involvement, or to a hoax.  

[Terri]

Originally posted by 4Jesus
I really find this hard to believe that a person can be filled with the dynamics of the Holy Spirit and still be demon filled. :(  Nope, that just doesn't sound right. 

I don't believe that either 4Jesus!http://luvjc.net/emoticons/happy/0044.gif

[Terri]

Originally posted by Live4Jesus
Paul the apostle says he had a thorn in his side... but it wasn't life threatening by any means, he relates how the Lord left it to remind him of his humanity.... more or less...

I think part of this life and being saved is learning to discern Jesus' voice from the world and spirtis of the world around us... and even in Paul's case, possibly within, for the better, to fully strengthen us both inward and out...

 :eek: You think Paul was possessed?  Say it ain't so! 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by 4Jesus
Is it possible for a saved person to be demon possessed?

4Jesus

Is it possible for anyone to be demonically possessed?

[4Jesus]

Originally posted by Smilin
Is it possible for anyone to be demonically possessed?

Have you read any of the posts? Please do so. 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by 4Jesus
Have you read any of the posts? Please do so. 

(I've debated this topic many times..
to be upfront with you.. I'm also a mental health advocate)

It's a simple question...
If you don't care to answer it... should I create a poll for it?

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by 4Jesus
If we go back to Matt.10:1, we find that the gift of healing was given to the disciples. In Mark 16:18 Jesus told the disciples that they would be able to lay hands on the sick and they would recover. In Acts 4:30 we see that healing is connected with "signs and wonders" just as it is in Mark 16:20 where it says that certain signs would be used to [U]confirm the word[U] since there wasn't any NT, the un-believing Jews needed a sign that what the apostles were saying about Jesus was the truth. Again in 1Cor.12:9 the gift of healing is mentioned. But why aren't the sign gifts mentioned in the list of gifts in Ephesians 4:8-16?

No I wasn't suggesting that serpents are related to demons. I was pointing out that handling serpents and not being harmed by drinking poison was also sign gifts given to the apostles along with healing. So are people to do those also?

Generally I don't 'go looking' for anything, if He wants it for us, He puts it in our way...

He does come with signs and wonders still, He worked miracle after mighty miracle over here, so we would know it was Him,,, things for sure... He literally changed the hard clay in my backyard to a fine fine topsoil so i could plant a garden... it was too hard to even dig prior... and much more He did here... He's always doing stuff here, little stuff, sometimes big stuff like the clay...

But why aren't the sign gifts mentioned in the list of gifts in Ephesians 4:8-16?

i don't know just not mentioned I guess...
maybe there wasn't any need to discuss it there...

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by EveOfGrace

The ministry i work in involves helping people out of the occult. Many of them come to Jesus FILLED with all manner of demons. Alot of which are rooted there from either childhood or generational curses and do not automatically leave when the person gives their lives and heart to the Lord. They have to clean, and sweep and FILL every area, which takes time. They are currently Christians, and no one can tell me they do not love the Lord with all their hearts. I see the tears, the anguish, the anger and all other manner of seeking to be totally free.  And some are. Some, are still sweeping. 

The armor of God was mentioned. And yes, that armour protects us. But read it carefully, it sais 'PUT ON the whole armor".  Its an action WE take and must continue taking. IF we dont, IF we put that sword down, we have no way to fight.  If we break an hedge, a serpent WILL bite.

EveOfGrace    

I am real glad to hear you say that... I very much got the impression from the one post that you thought all that stuff was nonsense, don't know why would have to reread the post...

But anyway then, God bless you in that... it's tough work.

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by 4Jesus
Quaffer,

Believers cannot fall prey to demon possession and that means that demons invade the body of the believer. You need to put some thought into the woman you are talking about and her spiritual condition. If demonic sounds were coming out of her mouth (and how do you know they were really demonic and not good acting on her part?), that contradicts what scripture says: Can you seriously believe that God will reside in the same place with demons?

Demon possession is distinct from demon influence. In demonic influence which can affect both believers and un-believers, a person surrenders their thinking to false concepts and human viewpoints called "doctrines of demons" (1Tim.4:10.

Demonic influence can lead to posession. The Epistles are strangely silent about true posession. Contrary to what might be expected, the Greek verb for "cast out" is ekballo, not (exorkizo, from which we get the English noun "exorcist"). The verb exorkizo is never used in the NT to describe the removal of a demon. The noun exorkistes or "exorcist" and its congugate verb horkizo "to charge under oath, adjure, implore," are used of religious practitioners who attempted to expel demons by uttering mysterious incantations (Acts 10:13). Exorcism, therefore, is a pagan ritual devised to evict demons by means of religious oaths. Ekballo is used throughout the NT when Jesus or the diciples cast out demons. Jesus cast out demons; He never exorcised a demon.

Believing in Jesus is what liberates the un-believer from any demon who posesses them. The exorcism deliverance ministries that have sprung up are not in line with God's plan. The apparant success of those who engage in exorcism can be attributed either to the cooperation of satan, to demon involvement, or to a hoax.  

I think what Quaffer is trying to say, is NOT that a person can be possessed after being filled with the Holy Spirit, but rather that if the spirits exist within the person already, then the presence of the Holy Spirit does cause them to manifest, but likewise also binds them.

I went through it a little bit too 4Jesus, it was no act... it was rather quite a shock...

Nonetheless I am quite thankful... for the knowledge the experience gave me. Prior to which I was as normal as the girl next door, no one would have ever suspected, including myself that those things were in me till the Holy spirit manifested them... to show me, and to bind them forever.

It is hard to understand I know, but Quaffer is very much right on in describing almost perfectly what I myself went through, and I have never met quaffer so that says quite a bit to me at least....

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by Terri
 :eek: You think Paul was possessed?  Say it ain't so! 

Paul was walking with God... if he had turned, after accepting Christ and being cleansed you can be sure his state would have been, in the end much worse than he had ever previously been....

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by EveOfGrace
Oh yeah, one more thing. Matthew 10:8 was also quoted:Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons.  Freely you have recieved, freely give.

If casting out demons is including in that verse as something we should ALL be doing, along with cleansing lepers, raising the dead and healing the sick, then by those standards, A Christian cannot be sick either.

It is silly to presume that SOME of those things mentioned cannot come upon us, but yet others can. Its either one way, or no way.

EveOfGrace  

 

I'm sorry about that Eve, after running into so much opposition concerning biblical truth here I actually read this post to mean exactly the opposite of what you intended...

[EveOfGrace]

I think we need to remember not to attribute every sin or base behavior to demon influence or posession. More often than not, the evil that people do is simply the reuslt of giving into the weakness in their old nature This i agree to wholeheartedly.  If we DO submit(very important first part of that scripture)to God, and resist him, the devil will flee.  We cannot resist of our own accord.

 Why do some still struggle so much with lust, and alcohol, and drugs, and etc. after they have asked Jesus into their hearts? There are demonic forces attached to these kinds of activities. They don't just leave of their own free will. Exactly. They were invited by that sin, and they also must be UNINVITED.  The person gave them a previous right to be there but when they are born again, they have authority that then must be taken BY the believer himself.  A demon in a Christian is a TRESPASSER, not a POSSESSOR. They have become the property of Christ. It is taking that authority, renouncing and repenting of ones OWN free will and subjecting the demons to Christ in him that makes it possible to be set free.

 Believers cannot fall prey to demon possession and that means that demons invade the body of the believer. You need to put some thought into the woman you are talking about and her spiritual condition. If demonic sounds were coming out of her mouth (and how do you know they were really demonic and not good acting on her part?), that contradicts what scripture says:quote: It does? How does one know a demon is speaking and not the person? It might be the cold air, cold enough to see your own breath, or it might be the speaking of a language that person does not know, or it might be the voice of a grown man coming out of a very sweet voiced woman or perhaps the putrid smell that sometimes accompanies them, or the ability to lift or break objects of great wieght, or even the entire change of the persons eyes and facial structure. One thing for sure, if they know and see Jesus in another person, one who is totally yielded to the authority of Jesus, they say so, and may even beg to be left alone. THIS is scriptural. See Mark 5. 


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Can you seriously believe that God will reside in the same place with demons?&nbsp; According to what i previously posted from Ezekiel, God most certainly can reside in the same place as demons, but will not linger there for an extended period of time. That scripture only indicates that we are HIs temple, it sais nothing further.&nbsp;In fact, here Paul was speaking to Christians,&nbsp;(verse 11, and such are some of you) and addressing the problem of sexual immorality and telling them to STOP for the very reason that thier bodies ARE the temple of God and not thier own to do with as they please.

4Jesus i do agree with the definition of 'cast out' ie ekballo: which means to eject-bring forth, cast (forth, out) drive out, expel, leave, pluck.&nbsp; And i also agree with your statement of the unorthodox 'exorcisms' that are done&nbsp;as ministries today,&nbsp;many are NOT in Gods plan.

A believer himself has the first and foremost authority, being in Christ, to cast out or away or&nbsp;off, whichever is the case THEMSELVES. It is thier will alone that determines thier freedom, but it is&nbsp;helpful to have a sword&nbsp;busting,&nbsp;Holy Spirit submitted&nbsp;Christian&nbsp;to help them.&nbsp; Holding a conversation with,&nbsp;arguing with, yelling at, or bargaining with a demon in ANY case is NOT biblical.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Believing in Jesus is what liberates the un-believer from any demon who posesses them. Not quite. The bible sais we do well to believe, for even the demons believe, and tremble.&nbsp;If you notice in the scripture i referred to in Mark&nbsp;5, the demoniac of the Gadarenes, when he saw Jesus, he ran and worshipped Him. He obviously DID believe.&nbsp; Why then, just my simply believing didnt this alone free him?&nbsp; Demons have no morality whatsoever and&nbsp;thrive on human&nbsp;houses in which to dwell and gain&nbsp;control. They obviously hold on to the bitter end, like in this account, dreading the dry places.&nbsp;Therefore, Jesus TOLD them, to GET OUT.

I know, it doesnt SOUND right, but reality, and scripture&nbsp;states otherwise.&nbsp;

EveOfGrace

[4Jesus]

Originally posted by Quaffer


When a person is filled with the dynamics of the Holy Spirit, he will NOT join himself to a prostitute,&nbsp;he will not go out and live a life of drunkeness, etc.&nbsp; If one continues to live this kind of lifestyle after accepting Jesus, we can assume he&nbsp;may be full of a spirit but it is not Holy.

Quaffer

That's true Quaffer but you need to remember that the new believer is only intermittently controlled by the Spirit and as they mature they achieve stability in their soul. No stage of spiritual growth is safe from backsliding.

Ahhh, so you like my phrase dynamics of the Holy Spirit, ehhh? Just because a person doesn't exhibit godly characteristics all the time, doesn't mean they are either possessed or influenced by demons. It is important to know where a person is in their spiritual walk and what is going on in their lives. It can really be hard to overcome our natural&nbsp;sin nature sometimes.

[4Jesus]

Originally posted by EveOfGrace
[B]&nbsp;



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According to what i previously posted from Ezekiel, God most certainly can reside in the same place as demons, but will not linger there for an extended period of time. That scripture only indicates that we are HIs temple, it sais nothing further.&nbsp;In fact, here Paul was speaking to Christians,&nbsp;(verse 11, and such are some of you) and addressing the problem of sexual immorality and telling them to STOP for the very reason that thier bodies ARE the temple of God and not thier own to do with as they please.

Ezekiel&nbsp;says nothing about demons. The Israelites were sinners and backslidders, that is&nbsp;why God left them.&nbsp;&nbsp;



&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Not quite. The bible sais we do well to believe, for even the demons believe, and tremble.&nbsp;If you notice in the scripture i referred to in Mark&nbsp;5, the demoniac of the Gadarenes, when he saw Jesus, he ran and worshipped Him. He obviously DID believe.&nbsp; Why then, just my simply believing didnt this alone free him?

&nbsp;Start reading Acts and over and over you'll read "believe and you shall recieve the Holy Spirit." Jesus said:&nbsp;&nbsp;

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ******. Mark 16:16

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by EveOfGrace

I know, it doesnt SOUND right, but reality, and scripture&nbsp;states otherwise.&nbsp;

EveOfGrace

God bless you Eve.

Did Jesus teach you, where did you learn?

[Live4Jesus]

There was a day way back when, when the Lord was working overtime with me... I heard Him say all day long He kept saying... "I come to set my people free.." Endlessly I heard Him all day long.

The next day was a Sunday, I went to church and the very first words out of the pastors mouth were almost a yell... "I come to set my people free..." the pastor proclaimed...

[Andrew]

I think b4 one can understnd demon possession/oppression or whatever you might call it, one needs to understnd the make-up of the human body. We are basically tri-partite, just like the Godhead is triune and the OT tabernacle is three parts:

1. the spirit (the real you) -- Holy of Holies in the OT tabernacle where the Ark is
2. the soul (mind, will, emotions) -- Holy Place in the OT tabernacle
3. the body (your physical body) -- Outer Court in the OT tabernacle

I agree that not everything is caused by a demon. For eg, lust is often times just a cause of the flesh/old nature, which we ourselves need to put under the control of the Spirit.

But that aside, when we say demon "POSSESSION" we mean that the demon has full control of the spirit, soul and body of the person. ie the demon resides even in the spirit part of the person. The outward manifestations/signs of this is that the person speaks in another voice/language, possesses superhuman strength etc. THIS CANNOT HAPPEN TO A TRUE_BLUE born again Christian becos the Holy Spirit will not share room with a demon. This is true becos in the OT tabernacle, you'll never find a demon residing in the Tabernacle's Holy of Holies, where the Ark and God's presence literally dwells.

However, the Christian can be 'possessed' (a more accurate and less confusing term wld be oppressed or harassed) in the part of his soul or body.

Soul oppression -- these may be suicidal thots, hearing voices to murder someone, mental problems, severe depression etc. BUT the person is NOT POSSESSED by a demon in the first sense mentioned, just oppressed in the area of his mind/emotions. IOW the demon is trying to control his mind.

Body oppression -- these usu manifest in the form of physical ailments esp incurable diseases such as cancer, aids. The demon's way of manifesting itself into the natural realm in physical form expression is by way of disease showing on the body. That is why a lot of healing evangelist will tell u that usu in cases of incurable diseases like cancer, when the spirit of cancer is rebuked and cast out/off, the healing process begins, the cancer cells die and the tumours start to shrink. I'm not saying that all diseases are caused by spirits but this is one form of 'possession' or oppression by way of the body.

[4Jesus]

Originally posted by Andrew
Body oppression -- these usu manifest in the form of physical ailments esp incurable diseases such as cancer, aids. The demon's way of manifesting itself into the natural realm in physical form expression is by way of disease showing on the body. That is why a lot of healing evangelist will tell u that usu in cases of incurable diseases like cancer, when the spirit of cancer is rebuked and cast out/off, the healing process begins, the cancer cells die and the tumours start to shrink. I'm not saying that all diseases are caused by spirits but this is one form of 'possession' or oppression by way of the body.

Demons cause&nbsp;Aids? :scratch: I honestly don't know where&nbsp;someone would come up with that notion. Aids is a virus and is spread by the exchange of body fluids. One of the reasons for disease and sickness can be the result of the curse of Genesis 3 but I doubt very seriously if demons have anything to do with it.&nbsp;

[Andrew]

Demons causeÊAids? I honestly don't know whereÊsomeone would come up with that notion. Aids is a virus and is spread by the exchange of body fluids. One of the reasons for disease and sickness can be the result of the curse of Genesis 3 but I doubt very seriously if demons have anything to do with it.Ê

that demons are sometimes behind the cause of a sickness is not new. Look at scriptures:

Ac 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Lu 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

you may be able to explain it in scientific terms in terms of cells (that's the world's explanation of things cos they reject spiritual things), viruses etc but that does not mean spirits are not involved, directly or indirectly.

look at another example:
20 And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming.
21 And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.
22 And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.
23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.
26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.

Now if you bring this account to any scientist or psychologist, they'll never want to believe that it has anything to do with spirits, unless of cse they are Christians, and Christians who believe in the spiritual side of things. They'll just diagnose it as epilepsy or some other brain disease and prescribe drugs to control it. That's all they can do, but Jesus goes to the root cause.

again, I'm not saying that all diseases have a spirit responsible but there are certainly such cases.

[EveOfGrace]

I think what Quaffer is trying to say, is NOT that a person can be possessed after being filled with the Holy Spirit, but rather that if the spirits exist within the person already, then the presence of the Holy Spirit does cause them to manifest, but likewise also binds them. Now that is&nbsp;a fact.&nbsp;&nbsp;That is&nbsp;almost identical to what i said, in reference to Mark 5.&nbsp; It IS the Holy Spirit, and ones submission to Him, that causes them to manifest and yes, binds them.&nbsp;&nbsp;To the point of agony even.&nbsp; A person could be housing one without any real knowledge of it, since they are those from the father of lies, master of deception(they dont want&nbsp;to be revealed). The light, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, any and all,&nbsp;causes&nbsp;them to show themselves.&nbsp;

&nbsp;

&nbsp;However, the Christian can be 'possessed' (a more accurate and less confusing term wld be oppressed or harassed) in the part of his soul or body.

Soul oppression -- these may be suicidal thots, hearing voices to murder someone, mental problems, severe depression etc. BUT the person is NOT POSSESSED by a demon in the first sense mentioned, just oppressed in the area of his mind/emotions. IOW the demon is trying to control his mind.
This i agree with partially.&nbsp;Possession sounds so much like having complete control. Which it is not. The spirit of a man before being saved is dead. Adam caused that. The Holy Spirit revives us, quickens us once again when we are born again. The soul however IS where demons can dwell.&nbsp; There are even certain kinds for each part of the mind. They are angels, fallen and twisted, but angels no less.&nbsp; Angels have ranks.&nbsp; That is a whole other topic and if one&nbsp;comes across a demon of&nbsp;ANY kind,&nbsp;Jesus is the Captian. Satan&nbsp;himself is but a prince. Jesus is King.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I agree that not everything is caused by a demon. For eg, lust is often times just a cause of the flesh/old nature, which we ourselves need to put under the control of the Spirit.Stated more than once already and worth repeating.

&nbsp;And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway <B>the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming.</B>
26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead. Renting? Taring?&nbsp;If&nbsp;anyone has witnessed this, it leaves the person sore for a couple of days.&nbsp; That doesnt sound like something that was just hanging around, but took root.&nbsp;

If a person had such a foul spirit(as Jesus called it)&nbsp;or many of them depending upon their previous activities/situation,&nbsp;and came to Christ and was saved, some&nbsp;posters here claim that ALL demons would then be cast out.&nbsp;Jesus is much more compassionate than we are supposing here.&nbsp;&nbsp;An uprooting such as that could cause much undo pain and sufferring which is NOT in Jesus' nature.&nbsp; He is&nbsp;caring enough to let it be gradual. Setting free and making free are different things.

EveOfGrace&nbsp;

&nbsp;

[EveOfGrace]

Ezekiel says nothing about demons. The Israelites were sinners and backslidders, that is why God left them. Did you even&nbsp;read my post on Ezekiel? Ez8:3-5 tells us there was an&nbsp;IMAGE of jealousy near the brazen altar. Is that not an idol? Paul tells us(1cor10:19) that idols&nbsp;woshippers sacrifice to devils. Do you know what devil sacrifice is for? To&nbsp;invoke them.

In&nbsp;8:10, they were portrayed upon the wall. Do you know why devil worshippers(clearly stated above) draw these abmoninations? &nbsp; To invoke the presence of demons.

Ez.8:14, do you know who Tammuz is?

I went through all that already.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Start reading Acts and over and over you'll read "believe and you shall recieve the Holy Spirit." Jesus said:

Does recieving the Holy Spirit cast out a company of demons? read what i posted above.

EveofGrace

[Andrew]

ÊAn uprooting such as that could cause much undo pain and sufferring which is NOT in Jesus' nature.Ê He isÊcaring enough to let it be gradual.

I think this is rather ridiculous. What abt the torment that the demon itself has been causing this boy for years, and the despair of his father!? The demon even tries to kill the poor boy in fire and water. Can you imagine your own child and you having to suffer this every day for many many years? and then you can say that Jesus -- in being nice -- will gradually remove the demon so as not to cause the boy too much harm. I think any parent or child wld want immediate deliverance!

[EveOfGrace]

and then you can say that Jesus -- in being nice -- will gradually remove the demon so as not to cause the boy too much harm. I think any parent or child wld want immediate deliverance! I didnt say He removes the demon(singular) gradually. That is impossible. I was refferring to&nbsp;MORE than one of the magnitude that caused this boy to be rent and left sore, and limp.&nbsp;The demon is literrally TORN out of the soul. Like you said, he had been there for many years, and wasnt just lounging on a sofa in there, he was rooted in that boys soul, causing uncontrollabe bouts of violence.&nbsp;&nbsp;It was posted, and i just quoted, that the Holy Spirit is more than capable of binding such demons and casting them&nbsp;out in HIs time,&nbsp;by HIS leading.

That is something referred to earlier also. Deliverance ministries that are&nbsp;unorthodox. Some can even by cruel, with no regard to the victim. Casting demons out like they were&nbsp;pebbles on a beach(or attempting to), thinking it fitting to allow all sorts of manifestations causing alot of distress, and further torment to the already tortured soul.&nbsp;Blatantly lacking the compassion of Christ.

EveOfGrace

[Blade]

Originally posted by Live4Jesus
There was a day way back when, when the Lord was working overtime with me... I heard Him say all day long He kept saying... "I come to set my people free.." Endlessly I heard Him all day long.

The next day was a Sunday, I went to church and the very first words out of the pastors mouth were almost a yell... "I come to set my people free..." the pastor proclaimed...

Wow...Amen..

[Andrew]

Casting demons out like they wereÊpebbles on a beach(or attempting to), thinking it fitting to allow all sorts of manifestations causing alot of distress, and further torment to the already tortured soul.ÊBlatantly lacking the compassion of Christ.

if that is how Christ did it -- sometimes just with a single word and immediate results -- then that's how the church shld do it. The manifestations are caused by the demons themselves, when they encounter the power of Jesus, not by the person doing the exorcism, so why blame it on incompassionate deliverance ministries. I agree that it shld not be a freakshow thing where the congregation gets to see a "show" on the 'prowess' of the deliverance minister or something like that. in my church, such people are taken aside into another room to be delivered. they are not 'put on show'.

but if the demon has to scream and tear at the person as he is coming out, then so be it. It does not mean that the deliverance ppl are inconsiderate or incompassionate. that's just the way demons manifest and come out.

[4Jesus]

Andrew,

Being oppressed of the devil wouldn't neccessarily mean physical. Foaming at the mouth and such would be more inline with mental illness. In that sense I believe that satan can cause insanity. That demons can induce diseases like cancer or aids is highly unlikely to me. Read Genesis 3, we live in a world that is cursed and filled with germs, dust, thorns and the such.

I understand oppression because I have experienced it and I rebuked and bound satan in the name of Jesus and stopped it. If I hadn't known what was happening to me I would have been doomed to walk around in a state of mental confusion. I believe by the name of Jesus I was healed and delivered.

satan will take any opportunity he can use to drag us down and oppress us and physical illness is a wonderful opportunity to twist the screw a little&nbsp;more.&nbsp;

[4Jesus]

Originally posted by EveOfGrace

If a person had such a foul spirit(as Jesus called it)&nbsp;or many of them depending upon their previous activities/situation,&nbsp;and came to Christ and was saved, some&nbsp;posters here claim that ALL demons would then be cast out.&nbsp;Jesus is much more compassionate than we are supposing here.&nbsp;&nbsp;An uprooting such as that could cause much undo pain and sufferring which is NOT in Jesus' nature.&nbsp; He is&nbsp;caring enough to let it be gradual. Setting free and making free are different things.

EveOfGrace&nbsp;

&nbsp;

Eve,&nbsp; This is your opinion and doesn't support what scripture says.&nbsp;Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb spake and saw. Matt.12:22

Jesus didn't tell the blind and dumb possessed with a demon that it would be too painful to heal him all at once, so He would heal his left eye and to come back next week and they would work on the right! :(&nbsp; No!, it was instant! God has given Jesus the power over all flesh {John 17:2}.

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by Blade
Wow...Amen..

Blade I notice you have changed your shield to the image of the Living God...

Amen Bro.

[4Jesus]

Originally posted by EveOfGrace
[B]Did you even&nbsp;read my post on Ezekiel? Ez8:3-5 tells us there was an&nbsp;IMAGE of jealousy near the brazen altar.

My Bible says that Ezekiel was taken to inner gate of Jerusalem and the image of jealousy was there not in the temple by the brazen altar. It was in the entrance not in the Holy of Holies. (v.5)

&nbsp;Is that not an idol? Paul tells us(1cor10:19) that idols&nbsp;woshippers sacrifice to devils. Do you know what devil sacrifice is for? To&nbsp;invoke them.

Yes that is true.

&nbsp;In&nbsp;8:10, they were portrayed upon the wall. Do you know why devil worshippers(clearly stated above) draw these abmoninations? &nbsp; To invoke the presence of demons.

Ez.8:14, do you know who Tammuz is?

I went through all that already.

The mistake you are making is that you don't understand that Israel was not saved. Peter tells us that:

Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves,BUT UNTO US they did minister the things, which now are reported unto you by them that&nbsp;have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent&nbsp;down from heaven;&nbsp;which things the angels desire to look unto. 1Peter 1:10-12

There was no personal salvation by grace&nbsp;and indwelling of the Holy Spirit. So your point is moot that God and demons can reside together in a born again Christian.&nbsp;&nbsp;

&nbsp;&nbsp;

[Live4Jesus]

2 Corinthians 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. 6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

[4Jesus]

Originally posted by Live4Jesus
2 Corinthians 12:1 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness, necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

&nbsp;Exactly L4J. There are sometimes that God doesn't want us healed, yet the sad fact is that this mass healing that's going on is so contrary to what you have posted. The wolves are among the sheep and preying on the sick and weak! A sick person will believe anything if they think they can feel better. It's the carnal side of us&nbsp;and not the spiritual that responds to this sort of thing.

Someone will probably try to say that Paul was demon possessed or influenced&nbsp; :sigh: Or I like the all time favorite, "you don't have enough faith." That's usually enough to send a new babe in Christ&nbsp;careening off a spiritual cliff!&nbsp;

[SpiritPsalmist]

4Jesus,

Did not Jesus do mass healings? And would you say that satan is casting out satan?

I go to a church that believes in casting out demons. It does not happen regularly but it does happen. The women I spoke about had been saved a few weeks, and in every service was manifesting. Finely, it was taken care of. And over time, more manifested. As they manifested they were cast out.

Yes, the flesh is difficult to overcome, but I have seen far less struggle from those who went through deliverance than those who don't.

Being part of my church's leadership, deliverance was a requirement. I did not believe anything was there to be delivered from but my thought was, if there is something there, I want it gone. I did what was requested. Nothing was there. It was quite painless.

I have seen people set free. The difference like night and day. From dispair to joy. Whether you believe it or not, scripture does support it and we live in a sociaty where some desperately need the help we can give.

We need to share Jesus so they can believe and be saved and then deliver them from the demons that may be tormenting them and then teach them how to live holy lives. We don't have to fall into sin as frequently as the enemy would like us to believe.

Quaffer

[Smilin]

Noone answered my question...
Can someone ACTUALLY be possessed by a demon?

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by 4Jesus
&nbsp;Exactly L4J. There are sometimes that God doesn't want us healed, yet the sad fact is that this mass healing that's going on is so contrary to what you have posted. The wolves are among the sheep and preying on the sick and weak! A sick person will believe anything if they think they can feel better. It's the carnal side of us&nbsp;and not the spiritual that responds to this sort of thing.

Someone will probably try to say that Paul was demon possessed or influenced&nbsp; :sigh: Or I like the all time favorite, "you don't have enough faith." That's usually enough to send a new babe in Christ&nbsp;careening off a spiritual cliff!&nbsp;

I have no idea what You mean by 'mass' healing... this type of deliverance is usually done directly by the Lord himself, or in Quaffer's case, via the intercession of a pastor.

Paul was not possessed, as he says he was 'buffeted', harrassed I guess he means, and for his own benefit.. to teach him, to remind him of reality, that he was not perfect... though the evil spirit was there, it was bound by the Holy Spirit in Paul. Through this experience i'm also sure he himself began to realize how and what the 'Grace' of God means in that sense... that no matter what he went through, the Grace of God alone would suffice... and I will testify to that fact as well.

[Live4Jesus]

Personally 4Jesus, I would always recommend that you seek the Lord first for this type of deliverance... if that isn't possible, if your faith be weak for some reason or if you fear... then having a good church to support you is a very good idea. So that you gain strength through each other... even so that someone can check on you from time to time as the evil spirits become exceedingly viscious when exposed, especially if they think you have a weakness somewhere that can be taken advantage of.


In any case one should never approach a strange pastor or church without first checking on their reputation from a few different sources. Yes there are wolves out there for sure.

[4Jesus]

Originally posted by Quaffer
4Jesus,

Did not Jesus do mass healings? And would you say that satan is casting out satan?

Where in the Bible does it ever&nbsp;record the&nbsp;Benny Hinn type of mass healings? satan cannot cast out satan, Jesus said that any house divided aganist itself cannot stand Matt.12:25, so how can satan be at&nbsp;such odds with himself [v.26]?

Jesus came to overthrow the kingdom of satan so how can Jesus and satan reside in the same house[body]? If satan is were in league with Jesus, he couldn't workthe evil he does, because Jeuss has power over all flesh (John 17:2). So when you say that a person that is born again can still have a demon in him, how can that house stand? it cannot!&nbsp;

I go to a church that believes in casting out demons. It does not happen regularly but it does happen. The women I spoke about had been saved a few weeks, and in every service was manifesting. Finely, it was taken care of. And over time, more manifested. As they manifested they were cast out.

I don't believe this. Again, "a house divided." The examples of demons being cast out is the same as Eve using Ezekiel to claim that demons can reside with God in the same body. These examples totally exclude&nbsp;the gift of grace and regeneration by the Holy Spirit.&nbsp;&nbsp;
&nbsp;

Being part of my church's leadership, deliverance was a requirement. I did not believe anything was there to be delivered from but my thought was, if there is something there, I want it gone. I did what was requested. Nothing was there. It was quite painless.

You can believe what you want. I know churches that believe they still need to wash each others feet. Jesus did this to show that the greatest should become the least, not that it should become a requirement of a church.


I have seen people set free. The difference like night and day. From dispair to joy. Whether you believe it or not, scripture does support it and we live in a sociaty where some desperately need the help we can give.

I have never claimed that un-saved people cannot be possessed. &nbsp;&nbsp;

[Live4Jesus]

4Jesus, people may get healed of certain illnesses by smeone like Benny Hinn, who he works for I am in no position to say, i hear good and bad, have no desire to meet the guy... but surely i wouldn't recommend anyone go to one of his mass meeting things for deliverance, it just isn't what he does.

I've never seen a mass deliverance of demonic forces, I think the only thing that might come a little close is the Toronto Airport Facility church.

And then still I wouldn't rely on it... it needs the personal day to day attention of the Holy spirit himself and Jesus. Big big faith.

You know, you could just pray about this... do as David did, ask the Lord to search your heart... and then wait on His reply...

I suppose Bob Larson would fit closest into that category, but still, its not a mass healing thing, he deals with each person individually...

[4Jesus]

Originally posted by Quaffer
4Jesus,

Being part of my church's leadership, deliverance was a requirement. I did not believe anything was there to be delivered from but my thought was, if there is something there, I want it gone. I did what was requested. Nothing was there. It was quite painless.

Quaffer

Quaffer, I was just thinking, since you didn't say that you or the leadership of your church noticed any tell tale signs of demon activity in you, does the&nbsp;leadership do random demon checks on individuals just to make sure that there is no demon activity?&nbsp; :confused: &nbsp;

[Live4Jesus]

Where I live, we pray everyday. And now and then even rebuke. Stay away from places that welcome evil... there are places even angels don't dare go...

If I might ask why are you mocking Quaffer 4Jesus? I know you believe in Jesus, but is attempting to belittle your brother anyway to behave? I get that impression, sorry if I'm wrong... but its the impression you're giving me... like you just want to poke at him because you don't believe him...

He answered you already... maybe just pray, give it time to sift through, if what he speaks is truth it will reveal itself no?

Be blessed.

[EveOfGrace]

if that is how Christ did it -- sometimes just with a single word and immediate results -- then that's how the church shld do it. The manifestations are caused by the demons themselves, when they encounter the power of Jesus, not by the person doing the exorcism, so why blame it on incompassionate deliverance ministries. I agree that it shld not be a freakshow thing where the congregation gets to see a "show" on the 'prowess' of the deliverance minister or something like that. in my church, such people are taken aside into another room to be delivered. they are not 'put on show'. That is exactly what i meant Veteran.&nbsp;The freakshow, the audience, the prowess, no matter what God sais, or the person feels.&nbsp; I wasnt referring to manifestations that DO happen&nbsp;when a demon leaves or is called out,(like that posted of the boy being rent)&nbsp;i meant the inconsiderate,&nbsp;discompassionate practice of 'wanting'&nbsp;displays or allowing violent acts by demons in the name of 'deliverance'. The way its done in your church, IS compassionate.

EveOfGrace&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

[Andrew]

Quaffer is a lady by the way *LOL

and lets not be demon-conscious but God-conscious. If demonic activity does manifest and God has shown you thru the gift of discerning of spirits that it is demonic/spiritual in nature, then deal with it. otherwise, why focus so much on the devil and detract from focusing on God in the service. talk abt Jesus, not devils.

[4Jesus]

Originally posted by Live4Jesus


If I might ask why are you mocking Quaffer 4Jesus? I know you believe in Jesus, but is attempting to belittle your brother anyway to behave? I get that impression, sorry if I'm wrong... but its the impression you're giving me... like you just want to poke at him because you don't believe him...

He answered you already... maybe just pray, give it time to sift through, if what he speaks is truth it will reveal itself no?

Be blessed.

My question is valid. If there was no initial proof from what he said that he had any problem with demons, then from what his churches beliefs are according to the action they took, it would be possible for him to experience problems with demons and not exhibit any signs, so periodic re-checks would be necessary.

In the future, why don't you let others defend themselves if they feel it is necessary, from the information that Quaffer posts, he should be astute enough to pick up on being belittled if that is the case.

[SpiritPsalmist]

OK. . .well. . .I agree with Andrew, we should focus more on Jesus than the devil.

And what I have said, I believe several times is that I do not believe the demons reside "in" a christian. However, if the christian has not gotten rid of the "bondages" they had before they were a christian, or has gone back to "bondages" they had before they were a christian, or has picked up new "bondages" since they have become a christian, they have given the enemy an open door.

Eph 4:27 (NKJ) nor give place to the devil. (Amplified) "Leave no [such] room or foothold for the devil [give no opportunity to him].

Pray tell . . .what foothold might the devil be able to get?&nbsp; On what?&nbsp; Who?&nbsp; Why? Uh, what form might it take if he gets a foothold?

2 Timothy 1:7 For God has not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Are we fearful?&nbsp;In any form?&nbsp; Then that's a spirit of fear.&nbsp; And it did not come from God.

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment.&nbsp;&nbsp; He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Gee, satan is called the tormentor.&nbsp; Fear has torment.&nbsp; The spirit of fear does not come from God.&nbsp; But it can be cast out.&nbsp; Why would that spirit need to be cast out if it's not there?&nbsp; I know many christians who live in fear.&nbsp; Fear for their children, fear for their jobs, fear for their mates, fear for their safety, fear for their health.&nbsp;&nbsp;That is a spirit, and it's not from God.

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba Father.

Bondage again?&nbsp; Had some of them gotten into bondage again?&nbsp; Certaintly sounds like it.

Proverbs 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

I hear lot's of christians speaking death over themselves.&nbsp; "I'm stupid, I'm fat, I'm sick, I'm poor, I'm crazy".&nbsp; And we're suprised why we're reaping the words we speak.&nbsp; Are these the devil's footholds?

No my church does not do random checks for demons.&nbsp; They do however, know what's going on in the lives of their leadership.&nbsp; They don't want leadership filled with fear and dread, or caught up in activity that gives footholds to the enemy, laying hands on other people who are even weaker and then passing those spirits on.

We don't have "displays" of casting out demons.&nbsp; When one one manifests, and the person wants deliverance, they are generally taken to another room and it is done privately.

I've seen the difference in far too many christians to know that there is a difference.&nbsp; The difference between bondage and freedom.&nbsp; It can be seen in their faces.&nbsp; It can be seen in their body's.&nbsp; It can be seen in the way they walk in victory over the enemy instead of defeat.

Jesus can do anything.&nbsp; He's the deliverer.&nbsp; We humans are merely the instrument in His Hands.

Quaffer

&nbsp;

[4Jesus]

Originally posted by Live4Jesus

I've never seen a mass deliverance of demonic forces, I think the only thing that might come a little close is the Toronto Airport Facility church.



The supposed Toronto Blessing is a pathetic mess! Paul said that things were to be done in an orderly fashion and the Toronto thing is just not that but has become a major tourist attraction to boot!&nbsp; I don't think that barking like dogs and cackling like chickens is the moving of the Holy Spirit.

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by 4Jesus
My question is valid. If there was no initial proof from what he said that he had any problem with demons, then from what his churches beliefs are according to the action they took, it would be possible for him to experience problems with demons and not exhibit any signs, so periodic re-checks would be necessary.

In the future, why don't you let others defend themselves if they feel it is necessary, from the information that Quaffer posts, he should be astute enough to pick up on being belittled if that is the case.

4Jesus,

I would also like to point out that my church is a prophetic oriented church.&nbsp;&nbsp;While one may be able to hide an area of bondage for awhile, if that one is unwilling to let the Lord take care of it between Him and them, He&nbsp;will find another way of it getting taken care of.&nbsp;&nbsp;

But the point really is that Jesus sets us free.&nbsp; We can submit ourselves to Him and these "bondages" will not take up residense.&nbsp;&nbsp;If we do find there are bondages, we can still submit to Him and they will flee.

James 4:6-8 (Amplified) But He gives us more and more grace (power of the Holy Spirit, to meet this evil tendency and all others fully).&nbsp; That is why He says, God sets Himself against the proud and haughty, but give grace [continually] to the lowly (those who are humble enough to receive it).&nbsp; So be subject to God. Resist the devil [stand firm against him]. and he will flee from you.&nbsp; Come close to God and He will come close to you. [Recognize that you are] sinners, get your soiled hands clean; [realize that you have been disloyal] wavering individuals with divided interests, and purify your hearts [of your spiritual adultery].

(NKJ) But He gives more grace.&nbsp; Therefore He says: "God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble." therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.&nbsp; Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.&nbsp; Cleanse you hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

As we draw closer to God and submit to Him then the devils flee.&nbsp; If we don't draw close and submit to God then the devils do not flee.&nbsp;

We've been given everything we need.&nbsp; We need to use it.

Quaffer

[MizDoulos]

Reminder:&nbsp&nbspDo not air your personal disagreements in public. Use your e-mail or private message option to resolve conflicts. If it continues, the thread will be closed.

Thank you.

[wblastyn]

Now if you bring this account to any scientist or psychologist, they'll never want to believe that it has anything to do with spirits, unless of cse they are Christians, and Christians who believe in the spiritual side of things. They'll just diagnose it as epilepsy or some other brain disease and prescribe drugs to control it. That's all they can do, but Jesus goes to the root cause.
The how come Christians can become depressed, have cancer, epilepsy, etc? Depression is caused by chemical imbalances, if it were demons then why would drugs have any effect, cancer is caused by a genetic flaw and epilepsy is when your brain goes into a sort of loop, my dad is a Christian and he has epilepsy.

I do believe demons can possess unsaved people, and sometimes cause illnesses, but if they were the cause of every illness then we could cure everything by casting out the "spirit of X" in the name of Jesus. I don't understand why people find it hard to accept that our brain can become sick just like any other part of our body.

What do those of&nbsp;you who&nbsp;believe psychology is a quack science do if you have clincial depression?

[4Jesus]

Originally posted by Quaffer
I would also like to point out that my church is a prophetic oriented church.&nbsp;&nbsp;While one may be able to hide an area of bondage for awhile, if that one is unwilling to let the Lord take care of it between Him and them, He&nbsp;will find another way of it getting taken care of.&nbsp;&nbsp;

Quaffer

Please define prophetic oriented.

[EveOfGrace]

some insight to Pauls 'thorn in the flesh' sent to 'buffet' him.

buffet in the greek&nbsp;means: to rap(or beat) upon&nbsp;with the fist

thorn there is the greek word skolops:&nbsp; withered at the front&nbsp;

it comes from skello:to parch:through the idea of leanness) the leg(as lank) leg&nbsp;

and optomai:to gaze(ie with wide open eyes at at something remarkable

so this thorn in the flesh was something opennly visible on Paul. Withered at the front?&nbsp;Leg?&nbsp; a withered leg that was&nbsp;visible to all?&nbsp;A messenger of satan sent to beat upon him(his flesh in this matter). In this way, having&nbsp;this outward fleshly imperfection,&nbsp;Paul would not be exalted above&nbsp;that of a real man, and the power would then be evident as to who or what(Holy Spirit) was doing the works and miracles Paul did so often.&nbsp;

In our weakness, the power of God is made strong.&nbsp; If every eye that beheld Paul could plainly see him as having a weakness, the power of God is what they would focus on.&nbsp; Grace&nbsp;was then&nbsp;sufficient for&nbsp;Paul to continue his mission&nbsp;with a withered leg(or something like it).

[EveOfGrace]

The how come Christians can become depressed, have cancer, epilepsy, etc? Depression is caused by chemical imbalances, if it were demons then why would drugs have any effect, cancer is caused by a genetic flaw and epilepsy is when your brain goes into a sort of loop, my dad is a Christian and he has epilepsy. Christians live here, on earth, an earth that&nbsp;was once given to Adam to have dominion over. He forfeited that dominion to the serpent, satan, when he partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam died, (death means separation) and&nbsp;brought&nbsp;everyone&nbsp;under the same curse. Jesus came to defeat the power of death, and bring us back to dominion and fellowship once again with Father.

We&nbsp;have the right to claim that dominion, through faith, through our words and &nbsp;through obedience to God.&nbsp; The bible sais..'put on the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness'.&nbsp; I have not known drugs to cure depression, although it can have effects, like you said.&nbsp; I myself have had 'clinical depression' and God did heal it, lift it.&nbsp;

You said depression is CAUSED by chemical imbalance.&nbsp;&nbsp;Medicine claims this, but does not give explanation as to how the imbalance occurs to start with. Same with cancer. A genetic FLAW.&nbsp; How the flaw gets to be a flaw, they do not know, nor do they have a cure.&nbsp;The&nbsp;processed food we eat, animal fat, chemical they put in our water supply to 'purify' it, lack of exercise, failure to bless our food, any of these lead to a less than perfect care of ourselves.&nbsp; Combined with the fact that our bodies degenerate, being flesh indeed, and the sin that captivates the&nbsp;world system, our flesh&nbsp;is vulnerable.&nbsp;&nbsp;Living in obedience, not defiling our temples, abstaining from sin, being in&nbsp;constant&nbsp;prayer, all of this prevents attacks of illness.&nbsp;

Do our fathers fathers sins fall on us?&nbsp; According to the bible they do.&nbsp;This is why certain&nbsp;illnesses runs in certain families.&nbsp; We may 'inherit' something&nbsp;through no fault of our own, its just the sin condition this present world&nbsp; or state of the earth we live in&nbsp;hands us.&nbsp;

Can ALL disease and illness be healed? Yes. Is epilipsy, depression and cancer caused by demons? I believe, yes, perhaps not always directly, but indirectly&nbsp;by various ways, some of which i have stated.&nbsp; Having one of these dis eases does not necessarily mean a demon resides in the person to perpetuate the problem.&nbsp;But prayer, and seeking God to find out, is definately something that should be done.&nbsp;&nbsp;

Spirits of infirmity exist. Spirits of heaviness exist. Spirits that cause disease exist. Sin is all around us. Any of these things cause sickness and disease.

My son once had a fever that ordinary medicine had no affect on. His fever rose so high he began to see fire and spiders on his bed. At this point, i prayed once last time and refused to accept that God would leave him in this state, and within 30 minutes his fever&nbsp;was gone and he had no ill effects as though it never had been.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;What do those of you who believe psychology is a quack science do if you have clincial depression? Speaking for myself, i sought God ernestly and would not relent, until i was healed.

By the way, sorcery in the greek&nbsp;is our word for 'pharmacy'.

EveOfGrace

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by EveOfGrace

Speaking for myself, i sought God ernestly and would not relent, until i was healed.

EveOfGrace
That is so funny... I do the same thing... if we ever do get real sick which has happened maybe once, twice, (colds, bad ones).... I've yelled skyward at the top of my lungs "Help... we need to be healed NOW!!!!..."

and He has shown up within a few minutes....

[SpiritPsalmist]

4Jesus said this in Post #105 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=641308#post641308)

Please define prophetic oriented.



Sure 4Jesus, I would be happy to do that.&nbsp; I would also like to apologize for&nbsp;a previous comment that I might have offended you with.&nbsp; I have deleted it from my post. :)

By prophetic I mean that my church is one that believes that the gifts apostles; prophets, evangelists; pastors, and teachers&nbsp; (Eph 4:10-12) are all still in operation today and these&nbsp;gifts&nbsp;operate in our church.

We are also referred to a 5-fold church.&nbsp; IOW, all 5 gifts are in operation.

It is rather difficult for me to try and explain, especially, if you attend a church that teaches these things are no longer available to us.&nbsp; I checked your profile and have no idea what you already believe.&nbsp; Although, I don't know that it would help me explain it better anyway. . .but I will try. :)

For example: we had a man on our worship team who played the bass guitar.&nbsp; One day, one of our Pastors heard God tell her that she needed to have this man step down from that ministry.&nbsp; God told her there were things going on in the man's marriage that were not right and God had been dealing with&nbsp;him but he was refusing to resolve the issue.&nbsp;&nbsp;Other than that, God&nbsp;did not give her major details as to why, He just told her to do it.

She and her husband (both of them&nbsp;Pastors), went to him and told&nbsp;him that the Lord had instructed them to have&nbsp;him step down from the ministry.&nbsp;&nbsp;

In the process of talking with him he revealed to them things going on in his marriage.&nbsp; It was not adultry but was still a major marital issue and the man's refusal to deal with it in a Godly way was interferring with spiritual walk and his talents being used in the church.

So, back to my post where I said we are prophetically oriented and God will find some way to reveal what needs to be revealed . . .as you can see, by what happened in this situation, the man would not listen to God and let God deal with it privately, between he and God, so God revealed it to someone else so that it could be taken care of.

The one place that comes to mind that this happend in the Bible was between the Prophet Nathan and King David.&nbsp; You can find the