Is Catholicism Christianity?

[Athlon4all]

Please note:&nbsp&nbspFirstly, everyone who is a Christian is allowed to post in these forums. A thread cannot be restricted to only certain denominations or persons. Secondly, discussions regarding Catholicism can become volatile. Do not let the thread deteriorate into flaming or disharmony. Please read the forum rules and comply with them or the thread will be closed. Thank you.



This is an issue that I think is a major one for Protestantism/Evangelicalism. I am not trying to come to a conclusion that every Catholic is not saved (there are definately some), but the question is "Is what the RC Church teaches offically, is it Christianity?" I mean doctrines like Papal infallibility, the Papcy, Baptismal regeneration, that only the RC Church can interprete scripture, purgratory (and the doctrine that says that accepting Christ only cleanses us from original sin, and that sins done in this life are not cleansed by accepting Christ), etc. What do people here think? Is the RC Church the woman that's riding the beast in Revelation 17/18?

[Stormy]

Athlon4all : Since you are the first one on this thread, to open your mouth, why shouldn't you also be the one to put your foot into it?

Tell us in your "judgement" what you think.

[ZiSunka]

Is your checking account Christian?

Any person who is a Believer in Christ, a follower of His teachings is a Christian whatever denomination they belong to.

Christian means a follower of Christ, a person who has determined himself to the devotion and service of Christ. Believers are Christians, the people, the followers of Christ. Denominations are institutions, organizations of human beings, non-tangible, non-living things that have no meaning outside the context of their human members.

No object or institution can be a Christian, only people can be. Objects or institutions can be built and dedicated to the service of Christ, by Christians.

Why not ask if your hat is Christian? Or you checking account?

People are Christians, and their churches are their for them, not the other way around.

[Annabel Lee]

Sigh


No the Catholic Church is not "The Woman Who Rides the Beast".

I am, "The Woman Who Rides the Beast"..and I am taking over NOW!

So drink from the Papal Chalice or suffer my wrath!!

Love and Kisses.
Annabel Lee...Secret Papal Operative and Friendly Neighborhood Beast Rider

[SUNSTONE]

You know I did picture the women riding the beast, with a forehead just like that one. :D

[Annabel Lee]

I just realized that the title of the thread said, (No Catholics Please).
Please accept my apologies.

When you decide whether I am a Christian or not, would you please be kind enough to inform me?
Thank you so much.

[SUNSTONE]

If you put some lotion on that forehead, then we will let you in. That thing looks painfull :cry: all dry and itchy :scratch:

[Stormy]

Originally posted by lambslove
Is your checking account Christian?

Any person who is a Believer in Christ, a follower of His teachings is a Christian whatever denomination they belong to.

Christian means a follower of Christ, a person who has determined himself to the devotion and service of Christ. Believers are Christians, the people, the followers of Christ. Denominations are institutions, organizations of human beings, non-tangible, non-living things that have no meaning outside the context of their human members.

No object or institution can be a Christian, only people can be. Objects or institutions can be built and dedicated to the service of Christ, by Christians.

Why not ask if your hat is Christian? Or you checking account?

People are Christians, and their churches are their for them, not the other way around.


:hug: You are beautiful!

[Auntie]

You know I enjoy your humor, Annabel, I love your sarcasm and quick wit.:D

But seriously, the poster has some questions based on falsehoods he has been taught by false(or misinformed) teachers. He is only 16, and he is, perhaps, seeking the truth. Believe it or not, there are some denominations that teach that the Catholic Church is the "Beast", or the "Anti-Christ", or whatever. I would say, the Catholics(and non-Catholics) have a never ending job of dispelling these lies.

[JesusServant]

Catholics are Christians but they aren't the only Christians and they don't have exclusive rights to the Bible or interpretation.

If you believe catholics are in error in some way calling them a whore is no way to reach out to them in a Christ-like manner.

[ZiSunka]

Originally posted by Athlon4all
What do people here think? Is the RC Church the woman that's riding the beast in Revelation 17/18?

No. But some people, including me, think that the institution of the Catholic Church [i]will]/i] be. Right now it is inhabited by many, many Believers, but after the rapture, when all the Believers from every denomination and no denomination are taken up, non-believers wil take it over and turn it into the woman of Revelation.

[SonWorshipper]

Considering the amount of confessed Catholics looking at this thread ( and ready to pounce?), one would be hard pressed, I think, to give an honest opinion/ answer to this post. ;)

[ZiSunka]

Originally posted by sonworshipper
Considering the amount of confessed Catholics looking at this thread ( and ready to pounce?), one would be hard pressed, I think, to give an honest opinion/ answer to this post. ;)

As long as it is thoughtful and not mean, it's okay.

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by lambslove
Is your checking account Christian?

Any person who is a Believer in Christ, a follower of His teachings is a Christian whatever denomination they belong to.

Christian means a follower of Christ, a person who has determined himself to the devotion and service of Christ. Believers are Christians, the people, the followers of Christ. Denominations are institutions, organizations of human beings, non-tangible, non-living things that have no meaning outside the context of their human members.

No object or institution can be a Christian, only people can be. Objects or institutions can be built and dedicated to the service of Christ, by Christians.

Why not ask if your hat is Christian? Or you checking account?

People are Christians, and their churches are their for them, not the other way around.

Although I do not agree with the intital post I think you missed the point of the post.  It basically asked if the RCC's theology is Christian.  It asked if it was close enough to the truth to be called Christian.  I personally think that the RCC is a Christian church although I do disagree with it on some points. 

[ZiSunka]

I understood that, but I wanted to steer him away from thinking that anything other than human Believers can be Christian. It is the state of your heart and soul that makes you Christian, not your theology.

"Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John. He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately." Acts 18:24-28 NIV

Apollos's theology was perfect, but he wasn't a Christian at the time.

[KC Catholic]

Originally posted by sonworshipper
Considering the amount of confessed Catholics looking at this thread ( and ready to pounce?), one would be hard pressed, I think, to give an honest opinion/ answer to this post. ;)

It's kind of like watching the US military build up in the Gulf, isn't it? ;)

We're not going to pounce! ;) :D

[Stormy]

Originally posted by Auntie
You know I enjoy your humor, Annabel, I love your sarcasm and quick wit.:D

But seriously, the poster has some questions based on falsehoods he has been taught by false(or misinformed) teachers. He is only 16, and he is, perhaps, seeking the truth. Believe it or not, there are some denominations that teach that the Catholic Church is the "Beast", or the "Anti-Christ", or whatever. I would say, the Catholics(and non-Catholics) have a never ending job of dispelling these lies.

Auntie: Please don't be so gullible. If this person were interested in the truth he would not have purposely exempted the Catholics from answering.

I can not see how it can be allowed that a Church can be attacked and its members are to say nothing?

If you are looking for something wrong... there's a good place to start!

[ZiSunka]

But with a little patience and compassion, he might be shown the lies behind his beliefs.

[kern]

Personally would be curious to see the results of a poll as to exactly how many members of CF do not believe that Catholicism is Christianity.

-Chris

[JesusServant]

Originally posted by lambslove
But with a little patience and compassion, he might be shown the lies behind his beliefs.

That's what I've been saying.  Don't pass the hate on, throw water on it before it spreads :)   I would say a passage like in your sig 1st John 4:20 would be a great start lamb :)

[Stormy]

I hope that the Atheist will be allowed to vote. They see us as all the same.

Too bad us Christians are not as enlightened. :sigh:

[ZiSunka]

so post a poll.

But I think that the terminology you are using would trip up the responses. Christians generally believe that only people can be Christian, not institutions.

You would do better to ask if members think that Catholics are Christians.

[JesusServant]

Originally posted by kern
Personally would be curious to see the results of a poll as to exactly how many members of CF do not believe that Catholicism is Christianity.

-Chris

Just word it correctly please :)  like, "Are Catholics Christians too?", if you say, "is Catholicism Christianity?" it gives the idea that you mean is it all that is Christian and the final and only authority on Christianity so that would probably alter the vote.

[JesusServant]

Originally posted by Stormy
I hope that the Atheist will be allowed to vote. They see us as all the same.

Too bad us Christians are not as enlightened. :sigh:

Yes, atheists are very enlightened.  They see us ALL as ignorant uneducated goat-herder lovers. :sigh:

[Stormy]

IMO

You do not become Christian by what you carry in your brain but instead Christianity is in the heart and soul of an individual.

I may never belong to a church. I think that they all have made mistakes.

But I am most definitely Christian.

God gives us Faith by Grace.

It does not come from church.

LOVE is the outward magnification of the inner Faith.

I think the most important question we should be asking is...

Will Christ see me as a Christian?

[ZiSunka]

You certainly don't have to join a church to be saved, no.

[kern]

The problem with the "Are Catholics Christians?" questions is that you get very vague responses back like "Yes, some Catholics are Christians" (by which they mean that Catholics who don't believe in the Catholic doctrine are Christians.)

I guess it just needs a more detailed explanation of what the question means.

-Chris

[ZiSunka]

Originally posted by kern
The problem with the "Are Catholics Christians?" questions is that you get very vague responses back like "Yes, some Catholics are Christians" (by which they mean that Catholics who don't believe in the Catholic doctrine are Christians.)

I guess it just needs a more detailed explanation of what the question means.

-Chris

How about:
Is it possible for Catholics to be Christians?

[Gabriel]

Are all Baptists christians, Methodists, Presbyterians?

No. Acts 16:31.....“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved,

That is what makes you a christian. Chew on this: if the catholic belief in being able to lose your salvation is true, they are none the worse for wear, but if we who believe OSAS are wrong where are we? Don't get excited, I'm not questioning my belief.

What I am questioning is where is love your neighbor as yourself? Where is They Will Know We are Christians By Our Love? Why are we asking qusetions to hurt others and start a riot? IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT DON'T GO TO THEIR CHURCH. ARE WE TO SEPERATE IN ALL THINGS BECAUSE WE BELIEVE DIFFERENTLY?

[ZiSunka]

Originally posted by Gabriel
Are all Baptists christians, Methodists, Presbyterians?

No. Acts 16:31.....“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved,

That is what makes you a christian. Chew on this: if the catholic belief in being able to lose your salvation is true, they are none the worse for wear, but if we who believe OSAS are wrong where are we? Don't get excited, I'm not questioning my belief.

What I am questioning is where is love your neighbor as yourself? Where is They Will Know We are Christians By Our Love? Why are we asking qusetions to hurt others and start a riot? IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT DON'T GO TO THEIR CHURCH. ARE WE TO SEPERATE IN ALL THINGS BECAUSE WE BELIEVE DIFFERENTLY?

There are non-catholics who believe the same thing, that you can lose your salvation and that only those who accept their church as the one true church will be saved. It's not an exclusively catholic thing.

[Gabriel]

Um, I think you missed my point.

[I can eat 50 eggs]

Originally posted by Athlon4all
This is an issue that I think is a major one for Protestantism/Evangelicalism. I am not trying to come to a conclusion that every Catholic is not saved (there are definately some), but the question is "Is what the RC Church teaches offically, is it Christianity?" I mean doctrines like Papal infallibility, the Papcy, Baptismal regeneration, that only the RC Church can interprete scripture, purgratory (and the doctrine that says that accepting Christ only cleanses us from original sin, and that sins done in this life are not cleansed by accepting Christ), etc. What do people here think? Is the RC Church the woman that's riding the beast in Revelation 17/18?

 

What is your definition of Christianity?  If you follow my definition (follower of Christ, and all that) then there is no question they are.  But then again, you might define Christianity differently.

The real issue here is what are the bare bones basics for someone to call themselves Christian.

[ZiSunka]

I guess I did. Can you rephrase it.

[ZiSunka]

Originally posted by I can eat 50 eggs
 

What is your definition of Christianity?  If you follow my definition (follower of Christ, and all that) then there is no question they are.  But then again, you might define Christianity differently.

The real issue here is what are the bare bones basics for someone to call themselves Christian.

I would agree the definition of Christian should be follower of Christ.

But would that exclude those Catholics who say they are totally devoted to Mary, and not Jesus?

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by Gabriel
Are all Baptists christians, Methodists, Presbyterians?

No. Acts 16:31.....“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved,

That is what makes you a christian.
What I am questioning is where is love your neighbor as yourself? Where is They Will Know We are Christians By Our Love? Why are we asking qusetions to hurt others and start a riot? IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT DON'T GO TO THEIR CHURCH. ARE WE TO SEPERATE IN ALL THINGS BECAUSE WE BELIEVE DIFFERENTLY?

Is that better?

[I can eat 50 eggs]

I'd say that any Catholic who says they are totally devoted to Marybut not Christ, is not only not Christian, but not Catholic either.

[Athlon4all]

When you decide whether I am a Christian or not, would you please be kind enough to inform me?Annabel, I am not (and I thought I had made this clear enough in my post) trying to judge professing Catholics. There are (as people have said) Catholics that are Christians, but, not all Catholics agree with the official doctrine of the RCC. My question for Protestants and Evangelicals (Not Catholics, Catholics think that their Church is Christian) is just as Blackhawk said "It basically asked if the RCC's theology is Christian." I understood that, but I wanted to steer him away from thinking that anything other than human Believers can be Christian. It is the state of your heart and soul that makes you Christian, not your theology.Lambslove, I fully agree, but it seems that 1. Many people who have connections to the RCC think that their membership, or baptism into the RCC saves them and 2. The RCC does have a very unusually high emphasis and authority put on following their church, their doctrines, and traditions in connection to Salvation (officially).Please don't be so gullible. If this person were interested in the truth he would not have purposely exempted the Catholics from answering.The reason I asked for no Catholics to answer is because as I said in this post, Catholics think they are Christians. Now from what I have seen (and as some have pointed out, I am 16, and I am right now studying official Catholic doctrine, and I don't understand/know some things) it is a real possibility that the RCC officially has gone too far. Just word it correctly please like, "Are Catholics Christians too?", if you say, "is Catholicism Christianity?" it gives the idea that you mean is it all that is Christian and the final and only authority on Christianity so that would probably alter the vote.I think my question (I hope I have communicated it better) is just as I said it "Is Catholicism Christianity?" There are Catholics who I think are believers. I know one of them, and as some have said, there are more. But, not all Catholics agree with the official Church doctrine (same thing with protestants and evangelicals), but is the RC Church's official doctrine Christian?You certainly don't have to join a church to be saved, no.Certainly. I am not a member of any church, yet I have accepted Christ and I have the Holy Spirit in Me. But people, and as I understand it, officially the RCC itself, seem to equate much between the RCC and salvation because they claim they have a successor of Peter at the head.Are all Baptists christians, Methodists, Presbyterians?See above:)Chew on thisI do intend to Gabriel. Praise the LORD that all one has to do is accept Jesus and be saved.What I am questioning is where is love your neighbor as yourself?Where is They Will Know We are Christians By Our Love? Why are we asking qusetions to hurt others and start a riot? If the RCC officially is indeed gone too far from the truth, then they go under False Teachers in Jude, and II Timothy 3. This is why again, I asked non-Catholics only. I am not trying to hurt Catholics. If their church has indeed strayed too far from the truth, then I would want to see them to come to true salvation out of Love. And if The RCC isn't too far, then I can still love true Chrisitan Catholics as I do Protestants or Evangelicals.ARE WE TO SEPERATE IN ALL THINGS BECAUSE WE BELIEVE DIFFERENTLY?In certain areas, yes. But do we seperate in all things? No. We are connected with a Bible Baptist Church and I >1 yr ago, wanted to be baptized. Their "Church Constitution" said I had to become a member of their church if I were to be baptized there. I disagree with that totally. Have I seperated myself from this church because of it? No.

I pray that the Spirit has filled me with love and compassion and not bashing everyone. And I ask that everyone would prayerfully consider how and what they write that they might present the truth in love.

[ZiSunka]

No. It says pretty much the same thing, doesn't it?

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by lambslove
I would agree the definition of Christian should be follower of Christ.

But would that exclude those Catholics who say they are totally devoted to Mary, and not Jesus?

That is where you run into the problem of who is and isn't a true christian. To be more devoted to Mary than to Christ goes against one of the ten commandments.

[ZiSunka]

Originally posted by I can eat 50 eggs
I'd say that any Catholic who says they are totally devoted to Marybut not Christ, is not only not Christian, but not Catholic either.

LOL!

Okay. Got me on that one! :)

[dignitized]

I am aghast that this thread was even posted. What makes a person a Christian? Is it the church they belong to? Nope. Is it the life that they live? Nope. Is it the relationship they have with Christ? YUP! I can tell you from experience that I have found more confessing Christians in the RCC that I have amongst the plethora of fundamentalist denominations.

I have to say how many people who claim to be Christian and are fundamentalists are actually Christians? Does reciting the “sinners prayer” make you a Christian and more than attendance in any church?

The devil would have us distracted from our own relationship with Christ by having us watching everyone else and wondering: are they walking with God?

Yes there are doctrinal differences between the Catholics and the Protestant churches – there are differences in doctrine between the Lutheran and the Presbyterian, the Baptist and the Methodist as well. ON all the ESCENTIAL doctrines ALL Christians agree:

We all agree that God is a trinity and salvation comes from God alone through Christ alone by GRACE alone through faith UNTO good works. Issues of who is in charge here on earth are SECONDARY and cannot save or unsave anyone’s soul.

Most of the divisions between us are rooted in misunderstanding. I’ll wager that if you as a evangelical would take a little time and do a bit of honest research AVOIDING jack chick and other anti-catholics you will find that you are not as different as you at first supposed.


I tell you honestly as a non-catholic with no interst in converting (so no one tries) that I am more comfortable with Catholics in fellowhsip issues than with fundamentalists.

[ZiSunka]

Br. Max, we were having a civilized conversation up to now. It was our first civilized conversation in a long, long time.

Please don't start yelling or bringin personal prejudices. Please.

That you prefer Catholic fellowship to non-catholic is not the question we are discussing.

[seebs]

Originally posted by Athlon4all
This is an issue that I think is a major one for Protestantism/Evangelicalism. I am not trying to come to a conclusion that every Catholic is not saved (there are definately some), but the question is "Is what the RC Church teaches offically, is it Christianity?" I mean doctrines like Papal infallibility, the Papcy, Baptismal regeneration, that only the RC Church can interprete scripture, purgratory (and the doctrine that says that accepting Christ only cleanses us from original sin, and that sins done in this life are not cleansed by accepting Christ), etc. What do people here think? Is the RC Church the woman that's riding the beast in Revelation 17/18?

I have never seen a single Catholic teaching which contradicts the core of Christianity. Is every one of their teachings "part of Christianity"? I don't think so. Every church has local inventions and rules which are not "part of Christianity" but "additional doctrines believed by this denomination".

Some of what you said strikes me as poor representations of Catholic teaching.

Anyway, no, the RC Church is not the wh*re of Babylon. To the best of my knowledge and understanding, most of Revelation is a reference to immediate issues of the 1st century church, and even if it weren't, it's simply LAUGHABLE to claim that a Christian church, built around worship of and service to Christ, would be considered anything but Christian.

[dignitized]

Lambslove: Personal prejudices? Sir, that is my point - this whole topic is prejudiced. The opening thread begins the topic by saying we are too different to be reconciled. I say that you (since I don't truly qualify as a member of EITHER side of this issue) are much more the same than different. My experiences with Catholics have shown me that even when we disagree we can still be brethren in Christ. I have not had similar reception from those of the fundamentalist ilk. I have just as much in common with Pentecostals as with Catholics experientially coming from a Charismatic church with ties to the ministry of Kathryn Coleman. Catholics more often than not are willing to overlook what divides us to focus on what we share in common. :) Fundamentalists tend to tell me that I need to get saved and be delivered from my popery and I'm not now nor have I ever been RC!! I'm sorry if this appeared to be a generalization of those here in this forum. I am speaking of total experience not just Christian forums experience. Thankfully this community tends to be far less nasty than people in general when it comes to these issues.

[layne]

I agree that a christian is one who's accepted Jesus as their savior, etc. . That is one reason I don't understand why people think Catholics.. or even JW's, LSD and those sort of religions/denominations aren't christian. We all go to church to learn and have fellowship, don't we? Does it mean that because someone belongs to a certain church they fall into some stereotype that others may have? It really is a personal thing.

[ZiSunka]

Originally posted by Br. Max
Lambslove: Personal prejudices? Sir, that is my point - this whole topic is prejudiced. The opening thread begins the topic by saying we are too different to be reconciled. I say that you (since I don't truly qualify as a member of EITHER side of this issue) are much more the same than different. My experiences with Catholics have shown me that even when we disagree we can still be brethren in Christ. I have not had similar reception from those of the fundamentalist ilk. I have just as much in common with Pentecostals as with Catholics experientially coming from a Charismatic church with ties to the ministry of Kathryn Coleman. Catholics more often than not are willing to overlook what divides us to focus on what we share in common. :) Fundamentalists tend to tell me that I need to get saved and be delivered from my popery and I'm not now nor have I ever been RC!! I'm sorry if this appeared to be a generalization of those here in this forum. I am speaking of total experience not just Christian forums experience. Thankfully this community tends to be far less nasty than people in general when it comes to these issues.

Yes, this thread was started with evil intent, but if you had read the posts that followed, you would have seen Catholics and non-catholics getting along for the first time in a long time. We were building comraderie and finding common ground. No one was yelling.

Your personal opinion on fundamentalists doesn't belong here, this is not thread on fundamentalism at all. If you want to bash fundamentalists, judge them or put them in their place, you'll have to open a new thread for that.

If you have something calm and thoughtful to say about whether or not Catholicism can be considered Catholic, we'd love to hear it.

[kern]

Some people believe that Catholicism violates too much of what they feel are the "fundamental doctrines" of Christianity. A good example of this is Sola Scriptura. Some people think that the Bible as the sole source of revealed Truth is *essential* to Christianity, and because Catholics don't believe this, that alone makes them not Christian.

Many of the "Catholics are not Christians" statements are based on misonceptions or misunderstandings about what Catholicism teaches, though.

-Chris

[ZiSunka]

Maybe this is a good place to calmly set misunderstandings straight.

[Live4Jesus]

There are references to babylon throughout the bible, starting with REV. 17:5, then looking at 1 Peter 5:13, and even Isaiah 47:1 -48.

Which though having plenty of analogies to The Catholic Church, even as sitting on seven hills, and keeping in mind that REV was written in 95 ad or so... as would reference other items there... But and the big BUT being that also if you continue, it says "Come out of her my people.." which would indicate that even though the church as an institution may be in the wrong, there are faithful believers within it.

Personally and you all know my position on idolatry I'm sure... but I see the whore not as the Catholic Church per se, but the roman church that preceded her, of which there remains a remant mixing within the Catholic church... both in physical persons and in certain beliefs... of which some fall for and some escape from for whatever reason...

Personally I prefer to stay away because the theology strikes me as incredibly deceptive. It's the only church I've ever attended for instance, that during the last week of October, gave all the kids in sunday school, of which my daughter was one little 3 year old (we'd only been to the catholic church a couple times in her life though), a bunch of papers with ghosts and witches to color as their catechism lesson that day... in honor of all souls day of course, another grand church inspired institution....

Needless to say, we never went back. And I still don't think it's funny.

I don't think the word whore here refers to anything sexual in literal terms, but rather means sort of... making one's bed with many diverse others...

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by lambslove
I understood that, but I wanted to steer him away from thinking that anything other than human Believers can be Christian. It is the state of your heart and soul that makes you Christian, not your theology.

Yes and no I will explain below.

[i]"Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John. He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately." Acts 18:24-28 NIV

Apollos's theology was perfect, but he wasn't a Christian at the time. [/B]

First Apollo's theology was not perfect.  He knew much but the text states that "though he knew only the baptism of John."  If this is true then he lacked some information.  Basically his theology was good for as much as he knew but was ignorant about some of the important things in scripture.  That is why Priscilla and Aquila had to "explain some things to him more adequately."

Second no one's theology does not have ot be perfect to be a Christian but there are certain beliefs one must have.  For example I can't believe that Jesus was not God and be a Christian nor can I not believe that Jesus paid our debt on the cross and still be a Christian.  So theology is important and incorrect theology can make it so one is not a Christian.  For example look at the Jws or the Mormons.  They are not Christians because they believe in the wrong theology. 

But yes one does not have to have perfect theology.  Look at me I am still learning everyday how I was wrong the day before.  If we had to have perfect theology I would be still a long ways from the narrow road.  But then again so would Aquins, Luther, Calvin, Augustine and proabably even Paul, peter and John.  None of these had perfect theology.  The only human to have that was Jesus.  So I would say one needs adequate theology not perfect theology.  But we do need theology.  We can't believe what we do  not know and we can't put are faith in a Lord we do not believe in or even know. 

But again I believe the RCC is a Christian church and there are many Christians and many nonChristians who call themselves Catholics.  You are right again that one can have very good theology but not be a Christian.  That is if they know what is right but do not relly believe it then they are not saved. 

 

[Caedmon]

Ya know, I was going to post something here, but I really think it'd be best if I held my tongue.

[chelcb]

Originally posted by Athlon4all
This is an issue that I think is a major one for Protestantism/Evangelicalism. I am not trying to come to a conclusion that every Catholic is not saved (there are definately some), but the question is "Is what the RC Church teaches offically, is it Christianity?" I mean doctrines like Papal infallibility, the Papcy, Baptismal regeneration, that only the RC Church can interprete scripture, purgratory (and the doctrine that says that accepting Christ only cleanses us from original sin, and that sins done in this life are not cleansed by accepting Christ), etc. What do people here think? Is the RC Church the woman that's riding the beast in Revelation 17/18?

 

 :(

[LightHearted]

Athlon4all
If you're doing a study for school on the RCC, then I seriously suggest that you go to a library/bookstore and get the book Catechism of the Catholic Church. This explains the RCC's stance on pretty much everything. They also have this entire book at http://www.catholic.org . I also suggest that you make this decision on your own, as opposed to other people's opinions.

[Annabel Lee]

Originally posted by chelcb
 

 :(

Chelsi, all is not lost. Remember Athlon did say that "(there are definately some)" Catholics who are saved.
All is not lost. Maybe it will be decided that we are one of the chosen "saved"! Maybe *they* will decide that we are REAL Christians.
Wouldn't that be nice?
But let's not interrupt the REAL Christians while they are discussing the fate of our souls.

So keep your fingers crossed Chelsi!

[chelcb]

Annabel Lee,

My heart just breaks for what Jesus must be suffering because of this.

[Annabel Lee]

Originally posted by chelcb
Annabel Lee,

My heart just breaks for what Jesus must be suffering because of this.

All sarcasm aside, I agree.
I don't think people realizes just how much it hurts to have your Christianity questioned.

[PastorFreud]

I meet the criteria. I am not Catholic, nor have I ever been.

I was once a young teenager, recently born again in a Southern Baptist Church. An elder in the church took it upon himself to get me my own copy of "The Two Babylons" a classic text that shows the Catholic church as the whore of Babylon and more. This book contends that communion in the Catholic church is modeled after the worship of Osiris. The elder wanted me to realize that all churches were not equal. Some were evil.

I read the book. I listened to my elders. I joined in hating Catholics. I hated homosexuals, abortion providers and recipients, Communists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Methodists, independent Baptists, and the people who split off from us and went to that "other" SBC church down the road. It is very tiring to hate so much.

It wasn't until much later in my life that I came to realize my own sin. I had been guilty of believing that God sent his Word to earth in print and that I had my own personal copy. (which I should thank a Catholic for) I came to realize that the way I characterized Catholics was not true to what Catholic people really were. To find out what Catholics believe, I had to ask one. I made friends with several. I even worked with a priest who was a mime. I was a clown and we did an act together.

So if you really want to know if Catholics are Christians, then change the thread. You need to talk to Catholics, not those who are not. How could those who are not answer you?

Regarding Revelation. It is an apocalypse. Apocalypse literature has several key characteristics. It is literature born out of opression and tribulation. It describes political happenings and using symbolism that is known to the people at the time. There are phrases like "seal this up until the time of the end", which, of course, is to be taken as the time that the audience is reading it. Martin Luther, father of the Protestant Movement of which you seem to be a part now, wanted Revelation taken out of the canon along with James and a couple of others. Later, the church adopted the protestant OT (missing the intertestament literature) but the Catholic NT. Weird. Catholics being condemned by a book they kept in the canon. Somedays, I wish Luther would have been successful in keeping Revelation out. For what it is worth.

[Andrew]

Is Catholicism Chrisitianity?

Well, the Catholics I've met always identify themselves proudly as Catholics, not Christians, to distinguish themselves from protestants who have "gone astray".

Personally, I believe there are saved Catholics becos many of them do confess Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.

[seebs]

Originally posted by chelcb

My heart just breaks for what Jesus must be suffering because of this.

He knew. He told us this would happen.

But it's one thing to be told, and another to experience it.

[Auntie]

Originally posted by Stormy
Auntie: Please don't be so gullible. If this person were interested in the truth he would not have purposely exempted the Catholics from answering.

I can not see how it can be allowed that a Church can be attacked and its members are to say nothing?

If you are looking for something wrong... there's a good place to start!


Sorry you think me gullible, Stormy!:)

I believe in giving everyone the benefit of the doubt. I would rather be "gullible" and wrong on occassion, than always assume the worst of people. I choose to assume Athlon4all is still learning and growing and seeking the truth(aren't we all??). If I am wrong about him, I will surely find out soon enough! But isn't it better to assume Athlon4all is sincere, and see this as an opportunity to show someone the truth? Instead of getting defensive, try answering his questions with a sincere desire that he would come to an understanding of the truth.

Galatians 5:22-23
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."


I was raised in a church that taught that salvation was thru the pysical act of water baptism, and not thru the Lamb of God my Jesus. When my husband and I first married, I went with him to his church. I was *appalled* to hear them say that salvation was thru Jesus! I had never heard such teachings! I confronted the Sunday School teacher, interrupting the class, demanding to know how in the world he could say that salvation was thru Jesus!! Thank God the teacher didn't take offense! Instead, he took a deep breath and began to witness the truth of the gospel to me, with patience, gentleness, longsuffering, meekness. Needless to say, I got saved that day. But if the teacher had become defensive, or ignored my rantings, only God knows when I would have heard the truth of Christ's salvation.

Stormy, many people are taught falsehoods about the Catholic Church, and believe those falsehoods to be the truth. You can take offense, or you can try to open their eyes and hearts to the truth. Even if the person turns out to be a troll, someone else will read your words and profit from them.

[fragmentsofdreams]

Originally posted by Andrew
Is Catholicism Chrisitianity?

Well, the Catholics I've met always identify themselves proudly as Catholics, not Christians, to distinguish themselves from protestants who have "gone astray".

Personally, I believe there are saved Catholics becos many of them do confess Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.

I only identify myself as Catholic because I deal mainly with other Christians. In a more religiously diverse setting, I would probably say that I am Christian.

[Brain Damage]

Quote Athlon4all - What do people here think? Is the RC Church the woman that's riding the beast in Revelation 17/18?


No I don't believe the RCC is the woman that rides the beast , I believe it will be this woman :


Revelation 17

3Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5This title was written on her forehead: MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH


That scripture is often used to prove that it is the catholic church , but look at this :


Ezekiel 16: 10. “I clothed you in embroidered cloth and gave you sandals of badger skin; I clothed you with FINE LINEN and covered you with SILK. 11“I adorned you with ornaments, put bracelets on your wrists, and a chain on your neck. 12“And I put a JEWEL in your nose, earrings in your ears, and a beautiful CROWN on your head. 13“Thus you were adorned with GOLD and SILVER, and your clothing was of FINE LINEN, SILK, and embroidered cloth. You ate pastry of fine flour, honey, and oil. You were exceedingly beautiful, and succeeded to royalty. 14 “Your FAME went out among the NATIONS because of your beauty, for it was perfect through My splendor which I HAD BESTOWED ON YOU,” SAYS THE LORD GOD.
15 “But you trusted in your own beauty, played the HARLOT because of your fame, and poured out your HARLOTRY on EVERYONE passing by who would have it


And This :


O desolate one [Jerusalem], what will you do? Although you dress in scarlet, Although you decorate [yourself with] ornaments of gold, Although you enlarge your eyes with paint, In vain you make yourself beautiful


I guess I may as well throw in a few more :


for she says in her heart, "I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.'


Compare :



Isaiah 54

5For your Maker is your husband,
The LORD of hosts is His name;



The RCC was never guilty of killing the prophets .


"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you!

To what John says in Rev 18:21-24

"So shall Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence, and shall be found no more... 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of ALL who have been slain on earth."


I am simply showing biblical scriptures that pinpoint Jerusalem as the mystery harlot woman and "THE CITY" other that what is more comonly taught..such as : the babylon of Iraq or the catholic church. .etc..etc.

I also believe that the 7 mountains/hills/kings are not the hills of Rome but are empires that ruled over the jews :

Egypt

Assyria

Babylon

Media/persia

Greek

Rome

That is 6 empires of the past that ruled over the jews , and it is believed we now await the resurrection of one of them...thus making a total of 7 empires in all .


So "NO"...I don't believe the RCC is the woman/harlot/city .

[Gabriel]

The problem that I have with this thread is that the first post amount to an attack. Yet the title forbids Catholic rebuttal.

Athlon,
Tell me if you find this offensive:

Are black people smart? (no blacks please)

Pretty offensive, huh? How is what you did here any different?

I must say to you Catholics out there. Kudos on your restraint.

Since this thread has done little in the way of edification and lots in the direction of offending, why does it continue? I wonder how many kids with new computers from Christmas have seen it and chose not to become members of this MB because of it.

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by Brain Damage

The RCC was never guilty of killing the prophets .



Some would argue with you using both the inquistion and the crusades as evidence. But again like I mentioned earlier, you have also to look at where the original church begins to blend with the roman culture, which is called Babylon by Peter (1Peter 5:13) most directly, and decide at that point, exactly what happened, which is kind of a blurry area.... who wrested control from who etc. and why of these things were possible in the first place... surely Jesus never taught the things that were done during those times, and which remain somewhat of a legacy, within the church (even all denoms) today.

I mean in rome, the same people who viciously enjoyed the slaughter of the christians, they and their children, 40-50 years after Constantine, became the catholic church as well as what was left of the original christian population there... I think it was one of constantine's sons who made belonging to the church mandatory you'd have to look it up, even the roman soldiers, the same ones who fed the christians to the lions, were forced to convert for instance...


A few hundred years later... I could have been killed by the Inquisition for instance, for refusing to reform/be reducated/repent to lets say... oh the idea of purgatory for one...

---

I have to agree as well with Gabriel above.

[Athlon4all]

If you're doing a study for school on the RCC, then I seriously suggest that you go to a library/bookstore and get the book Catechism of the Catholic Church. This explains the RCC's stance on pretty much everything. They also have this entire book at http://www.catholic.org . I also suggest that you make this decision on your own, as opposed to other people's opinions.As a matter of fact, I just went to that very website and found the cathechism. Thanks!
Pretty offensive, huh? How is what you did here any different?It was different because as you will see in the next paragraph, I did not have evin intent and I intended this to be not involving Catholics (which as it turns out, the mods say I can't do).

I feel that I should say truly that this thread was not started with evil intent. God knows my heart. I really am seeking the truth. I do feel I need to confess that I was somewhat how shall I put it, blinded in some ways about this (like for example in what defines a Christian). I am sorry for any of my true brothers or sisters (Catholic or non-Catholic) that have been offended by this post.

On an end note, I want to just Praise the LORD to see as some have pointed out, how this hasn't been a flame war. The LORD has poured out His spirit on those here so that there hasn't been the usual flaming and such.

[Julie]

Originally posted by Athlon4all
Please note:  ...I mean doctrines like Papal infallibility, the Papcy, Baptismal regeneration, that only the RC Church can interprete scripture, purgratory (and the doctrine that says that accepting Christ only cleanses us from original sin, and that sins done in this life are not cleansed by accepting Christ), etc. What do people here think?....

 

I,  myself can not accept any of the above doctrines from the RC church or ANY OTHER church for that matter, so I would attend and support a church that believes otherwise on those doctrines.  Its no big deal.

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by Julie
 

I,  myself can not accept any of the above doctrines from the RC church or ANY OTHER church for that matter, so I would attend and support a church that believes otherwise on those doctrines.  Its no big deal.

I have wondered alot why those things are called Bull.

I call them that too.. it is funny when the Pope does it it's OK when I do it everyone gets angry heh heh.

nteresting to note also that bulls are commonly used in worship of gods like baal. Didn't the hewbrews even build a bull when Moses delayed in returning?

[Brain Damage]

Originally posted by Live4Jesus
Some would argue with you using both the inquistion and the crusades as evidence. But again like I mentioned earlier, you have also to look at where the original church begins to blend with the roman culture, which is called Babylon by Peter (1Peter 5:13) most directly, and decide at that point, exactly what happened, which is kind of a blurry area.... who wrested control from who etc. and why of these things were possible in the first place... surely Jesus never taught the things that were done during those times, and which remain somewhat of a legacy, within the church (even all denoms) today.

I mean in rome, the same people who viciously enjoyed the slaughter of the christians, they and their children, 40-50 years after Constantine, became the catholic church as well as what was left of the original christian population there... I think it was one of constantine's sons who made belonging to the church mandatory you'd have to look it up, even the roman soldiers, the same ones who fed the christians to the lions, were forced to convert for instance...


A few hundred years later... I could have been killed by the Inquisition for instance, for refusing to reform/be reducated/repent to lets say... oh the idea of purgatory for one...

---

I have to agree as well with Gabriel above.

 

The inquisition and the crusades we never responsible for killing the prophets , and there are two more prophets / wittnesses to come and they are also killed in that great city which is not Rome but is jerusalem :

The Witnesses Killed
7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 8And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our[1] Lord was crucified. 9Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow[2] their dead bodies to be put into graves.


<B>"Where also our lord was crucified"</B>.

[Defender of the Faith 777]

Man, I'm sorry. If we're using definitions, you gotta have common sense, no offense.

A believer and follower of Christ is a Christian. I'm sorry, but you just gotta take it literally and not make much a big deal of it. We all believe in the same Christ. If we all strive after Him, we are all Christians. Man, it's simple.

[kern]

Yeah, but what does it mean to "believe in Christ"? Even the demons believe, and shudder.

Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses both profess to believe in Christ yet a lot of people (both Catholic and Protestant) believe they are not Christian. So clearly there's something more to the definition than that.

Although I agree with you, FWIW.

-Chris

[his-girl]

Originally posted by Stormy
Athlon4all : Since you are the first one on this thread, to open your mouth, why shouldn't you also be the one to put your foot into it?

Tell us in your "judgement" what you think.

Stormy,

1 John 4:1 tells us, 'do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world.'

2 Timothy 3:16 tells us All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

This isn't judging...IMHO, it's testing doctrine against the Word.

[chelcb]

Originally posted by Gabriel
The problem that I have with this thread is that the first post amount to an attack. Yet the title forbids Catholic rebuttal.

Athlon,
Tell me if you find this offensive:

Are black people smart? (no blacks please)

Pretty offensive, huh? How is what you did here any different?

I must say to you Catholics out there. Kudos on your restraint.

Since this thread has done little in the way of edification and lots in the direction of offending, why does it continue? I wonder how many kids with new computers from Christmas have seen it and chose not to become members of this MB because of it.

&nbsp;

Thanks Gabriel.

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by his-girl
This isn't judging...IMHO, it's testing doctrine against the Word.

Which is a real good thing to do his-girl.

Notice how when Jesus was tempted in the desrt by satan, what did he use as defense? a crucifix? no. A piece of leavened bread? no. The threat of his mother? no.

He used the word of God. Thats all.

Good example to follow I would say.

Of course many would have me follow the examples of others they call 'saints'.

ahem, I would like to point out that if its possible, shouldn't I always follow Jesus' example first?

hello. :)

[chelcb]

Of course many would have me follow the examples of others they call 'saints'.

ahem, I would like to point out that if its possible, shouldn't I always follow Jesus' example first?

Hello-

What do you think the sanits did? What do you think made them saints, how they got that way?

[seebs]

Originally posted by his-girl

1 John 4:1 tells us, 'do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world.'

2 Timothy 3:16 tells us All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

Actually, 2 Timothy 3:16 is ambiguous; it either says that, or says "All Scripture which is God-breathed is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, ..."

Anyway, that's great - but it doesn't tell me that nothing *else* can be God-breathed, and there are many issues on which the Bible is silent.


This isn't judging...IMHO, it's testing doctrine against the Word.

And sometimes the answer is "the Word doesn't answer that question".

[Terri]

Originally posted by his-girl
Stormy,

1 John 4:1 tells us, 'do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world.'

2 Timothy 3:16 tells us All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

This isn't judging...IMHO, it's testing doctrine against the Word.

I agree his-girl.&nbsp;

A lot of people of this board call it hate or bashing though.

[Julie]

Originally posted by seebs



And sometimes the answer is "the Word doesn't answer that question".

I disagree, Gods word has all the answers.

[Terri]

Originally posted by Live4Jesus
Which is a real good thing to do his-girl.

Notice how when Jesus was tempted in the desrt by satan, what did he use as defense? a crucifix? no. A piece of leavened bread? no. The threat of his mother? no.

He used the word of God. Thats all.

Good example to follow I would say.

Of course many would have me follow the examples of others they call 'saints'.

ahem, I would like to point out that if its possible, shouldn't I always follow Jesus' example first?

hello. :)

&nbsp;:clap: :clap: :clap: &nbsp;

[his-girl]

Originally posted by chelcb
Of course many would have me follow the examples of others they call 'saints'.

ahem, I would like to point out that if its possible, shouldn't I always follow Jesus' example first?

Hello-

What do you think the sanits did? What do you think made them saints, how they got that way?

Chelsi, Just because the Catholic Church declares someone a saint doesn't mean they actually are one. ;)

[his-girl]

Originally posted by seebs
Actually, 2 Timothy 3:16 is ambiguous; it either says that, or says "All Scripture which is God-breathed is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, ..."

Anyway, that's great - but it doesn't tell me that nothing *else* can be God-breathed, and there are many issues on which the Bible is silent.

And sometimes the answer is "the Word doesn't answer that question".

Seebs,

I believe that the Word of God is the final authority....period.&nbsp; I also believe that the Bible is not silent on many issues, it's only silent on issues that the Catholic Church embraces.&nbsp; :confused:

[his-girl]

Originally posted by Live4Jesus
Which is a real good thing to do his-girl.

Notice how when Jesus was tempted in the desrt by satan, what did he use as defense? a crucifix? no. A piece of leavened bread? no. The threat of his mother? no.

He used the word of God. Thats all.

Good example to follow I would say.

Of course many would have me follow the examples of others they call 'saints'.

ahem, I would like to point out that if its possible, shouldn't I always follow Jesus' example first?

hello. :)

This is too funny Live4Jesus, I was about ready to quote Matthew 4:10, then I read your post.&nbsp; :cool:

The Word is all we need to follow HIS example :clap:&nbsp; :clap:

[Terri]

Originally posted by Julie
I disagree, Gods word has all the answers. &nbsp;

&nbsp;

I agree!! God's Word has all of the answers.&nbsp; :clap:

&nbsp;

&nbsp;

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by his-girl
This is too funny Live4Jesus, I was about ready to quote Matthew 4:10, then I read your post.&nbsp; :cool:

The Word is all we need to follow HIS example :clap:&nbsp; :clap:

Judge everything against it, thats why He gave it to you...

Only Jesus can get you home his-girl, only Jesus...

Be blessed :clap:

[his-girl]

Judge everything against it, thats why He gave it to you...

Only Jesus can get you home his-girl, only Jesus...

Be blessed

&nbsp;

I do, I do.&nbsp; ;) Praise God!

May God Bless you

[Live4Jesus]

Member of the ONE TRUE CHURCH--you know the one started by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost!

I got the BIG wind!

:clap:

[Live4Jesus]

Let me boast about my Lord...

Ever Present Ever Knowing Ever Loving Ever Strong Invincible Ever Providing

Ever Lasting.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[KC Catholic]

Originally posted by Terri
&nbsp;

&nbsp;

I agree!! God's Word has all of the answers.&nbsp; :clap:

&nbsp;

&nbsp;

If so then....

Matt 25: 31- 46

31: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.

32: Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,

33: and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.

34: Then the King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;

35: for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,

36: I was <B>naked</B> and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'

37: Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?

38: And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or <B>naked</B> and clothe thee?

39: And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?'

40: And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'

41: Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;

42: for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,

43: I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, <B>naked</B> and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'

44: Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or <B>naked</B> or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'

45: Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'

46: And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

and

James 2: 14-26

14: What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not <B>works</B>? Can his faith save him?

15: If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food,

16: and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?

17: So faith by itself, if it has no <B>works</B>, is dead.

18: But some one will say, "You have faith and I have <B>works</B>." Show me your faith apart from your <B>works</B>, and I by my <B>works</B> will show you my faith.

19: You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder.

20: Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from <B>works</B> is barren?

21: Was not Abraham our father justified by <B>works</B>, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

22: You see that faith was active along with his <B>works</B>, and faith was completed by <B>works</B>,

23: and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God.

24: You see that a man is justified by <B>works</B> and not by faith alone.

25: And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by <B>works</B> when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26: For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from <B>works</B> is dead.

********************

So here is scriptural proof from a Catholic that we will in fact be judged by our works and our faith is dead without works.
</SECTION>

[KC Catholic]

Originally posted by Terri
&nbsp;

&nbsp;

I agree!! God's Word has all of the answers.&nbsp; :clap:

&nbsp;

&nbsp;

If so then....

Matt 25: 31- 46

31: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.

32: Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,

33: and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.

34: Then the King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;

35: for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,

36: I was <B>naked</B> and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'

37: Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?

38: And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or <B>naked</B> and clothe thee?

39: And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?'

40: And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'

41: Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;

42: for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,

43: I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, <B>naked</B> and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'

44: Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or <B>naked</B> or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'

45: Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'

46: And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

and

James 2: 14-26

14: What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not <B>works</B>? Can his faith save him?

15: If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food,

16: and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?

17: So faith by itself, if it has no <B>works</B>, is dead.

18: But some one will say, "You have faith and I have <B>works</B>." Show me your faith apart from your <B>works</B>, and I by my <B>works</B> will show you my faith.

19: You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder.

20: Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from <B>works</B> is barren?

21: Was not Abraham our father justified by <B>works</B>, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

22: You see that faith was active along with his <B>works</B>, and faith was completed by <B>works</B>,

23: and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God.

24: You see that a man is justified by <B>works</B> and not by faith alone.

25: And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by <B>works</B> when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26: For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from <B>works</B> is dead.

********************

So here is scriptural proof from a Catholic that we will in fact be judged by our works and our faith is dead without works - all from t
</SECTION>

[KC Catholic]

Originally posted by Terri
&nbsp;

&nbsp;

I agree!! God's Word has all of the answers.&nbsp; :clap:

&nbsp;

&nbsp;

If so then....

Matt 25: 31- 46

31: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.

32: Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,

33: and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.

34: Then the King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;

35: for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,

36: I was <B>naked</B> and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'

37: Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?

38: And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or <B>naked</B> and clothe thee?

39: And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?'

40: And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'

41: Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;

42: for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,

43: I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, <B>naked</B> and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'

44: Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or <B>naked</B> or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'

45: Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'

46: And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

and

James 2: 14-26

14: What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not <B>works</B>? Can his faith save him?

15: If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food,

16: and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?

17: So faith by itself, if it has no <B>works</B>, is dead.

18: But some one will say, "You have faith and I have <B>works</B>." Show me your faith apart from your <B>works</B>, and I by my <B>works</B> will show you my faith.

19: You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder.

20: Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from <B>works</B> is barren?

21: Was not Abraham our father justified by <B>works</B>, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

22: You see that faith was active along with his <B>works</B>, and faith was completed by <B>works</B>,

23: and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God.

24: You see that a man is justified by <B>works</B> and not by faith alone.

25: And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by <B>works</B> when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26: For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from <B>works</B> is dead.

********************

So here is scriptural proof from a Catholic that we will in fact be judged by our works and our faith is dead without works - all
</SECTION>

[KC Catholic]

Originally posted by Terri
&nbsp;

&nbsp;

I agree!! God's Word has all of the answers.&nbsp; :clap:

&nbsp;

&nbsp;

If so then....

Matt 25: 31- 46

31: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.

32: Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,

33: and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.

34: Then the King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;

35: for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,

36: I was <B>naked</B> and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'

37: Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?

38: And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or <B>naked</B> and clothe thee?

39: And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?'

40: And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'

41: Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;

42: for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,

43: I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, <B>naked</B> and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'

44: Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or <B>naked</B> or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'

45: Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'

46: And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

and

James 2: 14-26

14: What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not <B>works</B>? Can his faith save him?

15: If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food,

16: and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?

17: So faith by itself, if it has no <B>works</B>, is dead.

18: But some one will say, "You have faith and I have <B>works</B>." Show me your faith apart from your <B>works</B>, and I by my <B>works</B> will show you my faith.

19: You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder.

20: Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from <B>works</B> is barren?

21: Was not Abraham our father justified by <B>works</B>, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

22: You see that faith was active along with his <B>works</B>, and faith was completed by <B>works</B>,

23: and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God.

24: You see that a man is justified by <B>works</B> and not by faith alone.

25: And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by <B>works</B> when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26: For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from <B>works</B> is dead.

********************

So here is scriptural proof from a Catholic that we will in fact be judged by our works and our faith is dead without works - all from the
</SECTION>

[KC Catholic]

Originally posted by Terri
&nbsp;

&nbsp;

I agree!! God's Word has all of the answers.&nbsp; :clap:

&nbsp;

&nbsp;

If so then....

Matt 25: 31- 46

31: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.

32: Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,

33: and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.

34: Then the King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;

35: for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,

36: I was <B>naked</B> and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'

37: Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?

38: And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or <B>naked</B> and clothe thee?

39: And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?'

40: And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'

41: Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;

42: for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,

43: I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, <B>naked</B> and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'

44: Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or <B>naked</B> or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'

45: Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'

46: And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

and

James 2: 14-26

14: What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not <B>works</B>? Can his faith save him?

15: If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food,

16: and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?

17: So faith by itself, if it has no <B>works</B>, is dead.

18: But some one will say, "You have faith and I have <B>works</B>." Show me your faith apart from your <B>works</B>, and I by my <B>works</B> will show you my faith.

19: You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder.

20: Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from <B>works</B> is barren?

21: Was not Abraham our father justified by <B>works</B>, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

22: You see that faith was active along with his <B>works</B>, and faith was completed by <B>works</B>,

23: and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God.

24: You see that a man is justified by <B>works</B> and not by faith alone.

25: And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by <B>works</B> when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26: For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from <B>works</B> is dead.

********************

So here is scriptural proof from a Catholic that we will in fact be judged by our works and our faith is dead without works - all from the word of God!&nbsp;
</SECTION>

[Terri]

Originally posted by Live4Jesus
Member of the ONE TRUE CHURCH--you know the one started by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost!

I got the BIG wind!

:clap: &nbsp;

&nbsp;:clap:

[Annabel Lee]

Originally posted by Terri
I agree his-girl.&nbsp;

A lot of people of this board call it hate or bashing though.

Terri, it's all in the motivation.
When I discuss Christianity with my Protestant sister, our motivation is love.
When I discuss it with some people on this board I sense no love from them whatsoever. As a matter of fact, I feel just the opposite.

Some posters come here to bash the Catholic Church. What I would like to know is why?

[Terri]

Originally posted by Live4Jesus
Let me boast about my Lord...

Ever Present Ever Knowing Ever Loving Ever Strong Invincible Ever Providing

Ever Lasting.

:clap:&nbsp; :clap: :clap:

&nbsp;:clap:

[seebs]

Originally posted by his-girl
Seebs,

I believe that the Word of God is the final authority....period.

I believe God is the final authority, and that the Word of God is the Living Word, who was made flesh and dwelt among us, and that the Bible is not the Word, but just the words.

I also believe that the Bible is not silent on many issues, it's only silent on issues that the Catholic Church embraces.&nbsp; :confused:

It's silent on tons of issues; there's nothing in the Bible that directly addresses abortion, birth control, premarital sex, the modern belief that slavery is immoral, the moral status (if any) of pets, what kinds of music one can listen to, whether or not computers are compatible with a Christian life, or tons of other issues. On many of these issues, there are passages people have gradually changed their understanding of to get answers - but the answers we have today are not answers that someone a thousand years ago would have recognized.

[his-girl]

KC,

So you don't believe that the Word has all the answers??

You believe He wasn't smart enough to put everything we needed in there for us?

[KC Catholic]

Originally posted by Live4Jesus
I got the BIG wind!

:clap:

&nbsp;

Try "Beano"..it cures those "big winds".

[his-girl]

Originally posted by seebs
I believe God is the final authority, and that the Word of God is the Living Word, who was made flesh and dwelt among us, and that the Bible is not the Word, but just the words.



It's silent on tons of issues; there's nothing in the Bible that directly addresses abortion, birth control, premarital sex, the modern belief that slavery is immoral, the moral status (if any) of pets, what kinds of music one can listen to, whether or not computers are compatible with a Christian life, or tons of other issues. On many of these issues, there are passages people have gradually changed their understanding of to get answers - but the answers we have today are not answers that someone a thousand years ago would have recognized.

I disagree seebs.

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by KC Catholic


So here is scriptural proof from a Catholic that we will in fact be judged by our works and our faith is dead without works - all from the
</SECTION>

I do believe you KC I do believe you.

That is another reason why I left the catholic church I guess...

Because only Jesus can get me home. Through no help from me. Its an act of God. I will just sit and wait on my Lord....

(I am so glad He doesn't listen to me!)

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[KC Catholic]

Originally posted by his-girl
KC,

So you don't believe that the Word has all the answers??

You believe He wasn't smart enough to put everything we needed in there for us?

His-girl ...take a minute and R-E-A-D the scripture I posted.

Then consider the previous comments about Catholics and works - and filthy rags posted by Andrew.

[seebs]

Originally posted by his-girl
KC,

So you don't believe that the Word has all the answers??

You believe He wasn't smart enough to put everything we needed in there for us?

I don't think God isn't smart enough, or powerful enough, to answer our questions. However, as there are questions yet unanswered, I must either trust Him blindly, or try to figure out what His reasons are.

I believe that the Bible has everything we need that we can get from a book - which, frankly, isn't all that much. You don't need a Bible to be Christian, and the Bible won't make you Christian. All you need to be a Christian is Christ; the rest is window dressing.

[his-girl]

[I]Originally posted by Live4Jesus
Let me boast about my Lord...

Ever Present Ever Knowing Ever Loving Ever Strong Invincible Ever Providing

Ever Lasting.

&nbsp;

&nbsp;:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: &nbsp;

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by KC Catholic
&nbsp;

Try "Beano"..it cures those "big winds".

tsk tsk KC.

it is the breath of life you speak against.

[seebs]

Originally posted by his-girl
I disagree seebs.

That's fine. We don't have to agree, we just have to be ready to be corrected when God points out our errors - and I'm sure we all have plenty of those.

I think it's pretty clear that many moral issues we face today are not directly addressed by the Bible, and require us to think a fair amount about them. I trust that God does this for a reason.

[KC Catholic]

Originally posted by seebs
I believe God is the final authority, and that the Word of God is the Living Word, who was made flesh and dwelt among us, and that the Bible is not the Word, but just the words.

Where in the bible does it say that? Is this your own doctorine?

It seems the bible disagrees with your statement: 1Tim 3:15 - " if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."




Originally posted by seebs
It's silent on tons of issues; there's nothing in the Bible that directly addresses abortion, birth control, premarital sex, the modern belief that slavery is immoral, the moral status (if any) of pets, what kinds of music one can listen to, whether or not computers are compatible with a Christian life, or tons of other issues. On many of these issues, there are passages people have gradually changed their understanding of to get answers - but the answers we have today are not answers that someone a thousand years ago would have recognized.

That is not true.

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by his-girl
&nbsp;

&nbsp;:clap: &nbsp;


:clap: :clap: :clap:

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by seebs
That's fine. We don't have to agree, we just have to be ready to be corrected when God points out our errors - and I'm sure we all have plenty of those.

I think it's pretty clear that many moral issues we face today are not directly addressed by the Bible, and require us to think a fair amount about them. I trust that God does this for a reason.

Seebs, someday, when you really really get the Holy Spirit you know something, as he leads you... that the word IS true,,, every little bit of it..

God is not a liar. Neither is He a weakling. He did write it... someday seebs perhaps you will know, prayers!

:clap: :clap: :clap::

[seebs]

Originally posted by KC Catholic
Where in the bible does it say that? Is this your own doctorine?

The book of John seems to say that the Word is God, and was made flesh and dwelt among this. From this I conclude that "Word" with a capital-W is different from "words spoken or inspired by".


It seems the bible disagrees with your statement: 1Tim 3:15 - " if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."


We may know, but I don't think we know because the Bible says it all unambiguously.


That is not true.

Perhaps; I have yet to see anyone offer unambiguous citations on those issues that didn't depend on information outside the Bible. Curiously, I actually see this as one of the best arguments for the Catholic Church's position; the combination of Tradition and Bible answers questions when the Bible alone is too hard to interpret.

[his-girl]

Originally posted by seebs
I don't think God isn't smart enough, or powerful enough, to answer our questions. However, as there are questions yet unanswered, I must either trust Him blindly, or try to figure out what His reasons are.

I believe that the Bible has everything we need that we can get from a book - which, frankly, isn't all that much. You don't need a Bible to be Christian, and the Bible won't make you Christian. All you need to be a Christian is Christ; the rest is window dressing.

Matthew 2:1-2 and again He entered Capernaum after some days, and it was heard that He was in the House.&nbsp; Immediately many gathered together,s o that there was no long room to receive them, not even near the door.&nbsp; And He preached the WORD to them.

Matthew 4:4, But&nbsp;He answered adn said, "It is WRITTEN,&nbsp;Man shall not live by bread alone, but&nbsp;by every WORD that proceeds from the mouth of God.

Mark 4:13-20 and He said to the, "Do you&nbsp;not understand this parable?&nbsp; How&nbsp;then will you understand all the parables?&nbsp; The sower sows the WORD; and these are the ones by the wayside where the WORD is sown.&nbsp; When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the WORD that was sown in their hearts.&nbsp; These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the WORD immediately receive it with gladness; and they have no root in themselves and so endure only for a time.&nbsp; Afterwards, when tribulation or persecution arises for the WORDS's sake, immediately they stumble.&nbsp; Now these are the ones sown among throns; they are the ones who hear the WORD and the cares of this world, th edeceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the WORD, and it becomes unfruitful; but these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the WORD, accept it and bear fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty and some a hundred.

Mark 7:9&nbsp; He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.&nbsp;

Luke 5:1 So it was, as the multitude pressed about him to hear the WORD OF GOD.

Luke 11:18 "More than that, blessed are those who hear the Word of God and keep it!"

John1:1-5 In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with God, and the WORD was God.&nbsp; He was in the beginning with God.&nbsp; All things were made through HIM and without HIM nothing was made that was made.&nbsp; In HIM was life, and the life was the life of men.&nbsp; And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

John 5:24 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears MY WORD and believes in HIM who sent ME has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgement, but has passed from death into life.

John 7:28 Has not the Scriptures said that the Christ comes from the seed of David and from the town of Bethlehem, where David was?&nbsp; So there was a division among the people because of HIM.&nbsp; Now some of them wanted to take HIM, but no one laid hands on HIM.

[Terri]

&nbsp;

&nbsp;

Praise God Jesus is Enough!!

&nbsp;&nbsp;

&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;

[seebs]

Originally posted by Live4Jesus
Seebs, someday, when you really really get the Holy Spirit you know something, as he leads you... that the word IS true,,, every little bit of it..

God is not a liar. Neither is He a weakling. He did write it... someday seebs perhaps you will know, prayers!


The Holy Spirit has led me to believe that it is not, in fact, moral for me to buy a slave, and then beat that slave as severely as I like, so long as he gets up again within a couple of days.

Would you be offended if I told you that "some day, when you really get the Holy Spirit, you'll understand that some of what you're reading is not really God's will for you, but just a record of people who came before you trying to work it out?"

If so, then why are you doing the same thing to me?

[seebs]

Originally posted by his-girl
(various quotes)

Yes, there's several passages that all use the word "word", in ways that might lead one to conclude that the Bible is the same thing as Jesus, but there's a clear distinction between Jesus - the Word made flesh, as John says - and things *said by* Jesus, and between things Jesus said and other things written down by humans years after He died.

[KC Catholic]

Originally posted by Live4Jesus
tsk tsk KC.

it is the breath of life you speak against.

You gotta learn to catch on to my quick wit and sense of humor. I knew what you really meant.

The day of Pentacost was the day I finally felt the Holy Spirit was bringing me home to the Catholic Church. That day is very special to me.

[his-girl]

Originally posted by seebs
Yes, there's several passages that all use the word "word", in ways that might lead one to conclude that the Bible is the same thing as Jesus, but there's a clear distinction between Jesus - the Word made flesh, as John says - and things *said by* Jesus, and between things Jesus said and other things written down by humans years after He died.

seebs, you really need to read the Word and not rely on man to tell you what is right and what is wrong.&nbsp; I'm not questioning your salvation, I'm questioning why you don't defend JESUS with the same fever you defend the Catholic Church.&nbsp; Isn't HE worth your effort?

[Annabel Lee]

Originally posted by Live4Jesus
Seebs, someday, when you really really get the Holy Spirit you know something, as he leads you... that the word IS true,,, every little bit of it..

God is not a liar. Neither is He a weakling. He did write it... someday seebs perhaps you will know, prayers!

:clap: :clap: :clap::

You presume a lot, L4J.

Who are you to decide whether Seebs has the Holy Spirit in him or not?

[his-girl]

Originally posted by seebs
Yes, there's several passages that all use the word "word", in ways that might lead one to conclude that the Bible is the same thing as Jesus, but there's a clear distinction between Jesus - the Word made flesh, as John says - and things *said by* Jesus, and between things Jesus said and other things written down by humans years after He died.

seebs the Word is the guidebook that Jesus left for us.&nbsp; He tells us that He will always be with us.&nbsp; We are to study the scriptures in order to know a false teacher from the Truth.&nbsp; If we blindly follow a certain doctrine, we can easily be mislead....

[his-girl]

Originally posted by Annabel Lee
You presume a lot, L4J.

Who are you to decide whether Seebs has the Holy Spirit in him or not?

Annabel, How can one profess to have the HS in them when they deny the Word as being true??

Luke 11:28 tells us 'More than that, blessed are those who hear the WORD OF GOD AND KEEP IT!'

[Annabel Lee]

Originally posted by his-girl
seebs, you really need to read the Word and not rely on man to tell you what is right and what is wrong.&nbsp; I'm not questioning your salvation, I'm questioning why you don't defend JESUS with the same fever you defend the Catholic Church.&nbsp; Isn't HE worth your effort?

Seebs isn't Catholic.
He's an equal opportunity defender of truth and justice. :)

[Stormy]

Your churches are all good. The Bible is beautiful and true. But we each must find our own answers and work out are own salvation. You can not become more by making another feel less. Only when you know LOVE at the cost of humility will you know Jesus.

My prayers are that the Spirit will speak to his children and give us the wisdom to understand his words. God is not dead. He is still speaking to those who can hear.

May God bless us all.

[his-girl]

Originally posted by Annabel Lee
Seebs isn't Catholic.
He's an equal opportunity defender of truth and justice. :)

Ya could have fooled me ;)

[Annabel Lee]

Originally posted by his-girl
Ya could have fooled me ;)

In what way?
Please go on.

[his-girl]

Originally posted by Stormy
Your churches are all good. The Bible is beautiful and true. But we each must find our own answers and work out are own salvation. You can not become more by making another feel less. Only when you know LOVE at the cost of humility will you know Jesus.

My prayers are that the Spirit will speak to his children and give us the wisdom to understand his words. God is not dead. He is still speaking to those who can hear.

May God bless us all.

Stormy, where does one find these answers ?&nbsp;What is up with 'working out one's own salvation'....are you into new age??????

eeeeeeeee I hate XP.&nbsp;

Acts 4:12, Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.

Yes love is what He taught us, but He also told us to Profess HIS TRUTH.&nbsp; HE&nbsp;has ALL the answers Stormy, He is the&nbsp;salvation.&nbsp; I also know God is not dead, because HE lives in me.&nbsp;

[his-girl]

Originally posted by Annabel Lee
In what way?
Please go on.

It APPEARS to me that seebs is a defender of the Catholic Church.&nbsp; While that in itself is fine, I believe one should be a defender of Jesus above all.

[Stormy]

Why is it when I come to these forums and listen to these people who say they are consumed by the Spirit of my Jesus... I go away feeling so empty and sad for this world?

Is this truly the best we can do?

[Stormy]

Originally posted by his-girl
Stormy, where does one find these answers ?&nbsp;What is up with 'working out one's own salvation'....are you into new age??????

<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">Acts </SPAN><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:time Minute="12" Hour="16"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">4:12</SPAN></st1:time><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"> Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.</SPAN>

Yes love is what He taught us, but He also told us to Profess HIS TRUTH.&nbsp; HE&nbsp;has ALL the answers Stormy, He is the&nbsp;salvation.&nbsp; I also know God is not dead, because HE lives in me.&nbsp;


Believe me his-girl ... You do not want to start your war upon me.

[Annabel Lee]

Originally posted by his-girl
It APPEARS to me that seebs is a defender of the Catholic Church.&nbsp; While that in itself is fine, I believe one should be a defender of Jesus above all.

What makes you say he doesn't defend Jesus?

[his-girl]

Stormy, It's not about 'feelings', it's about knowing Jesus.&nbsp;

[his-girl]

Originally posted by Annabel Lee
What makes you say he doesn't defend Jesus?

I rarely Jesus defended on CF. Do you defend HIM Annabel?

[his-girl]

Originally posted by Stormy
Believe me his-girl ... You do not want to start your war upon me.

First all, I have no war with anyone.&nbsp;

But was that a threat???

[Annabel Lee]

Originally posted by his-girl
I rarely Jesus defended on CF. Do you defend HIM Annabel?

Yes I do.
Are you questioning my salvation?

[Annabel Lee]

Originally posted by his-girl
First all, I have no war with anyone.&nbsp;

But was that a threat???

Hardly a threat.

I believe she was warning YOU not to attack HER.

[his-girl]

Originally posted by Annabel Lee
Yes I do.
Are you questioning my salvation?

Did it appear as though I was??&nbsp; Did I state that anywhere??