Tanakh VS Septuagint

[Live4Jesus]

Does anybody know the primarily Jewish historical view of the difference between books found in the Hebrew Tanakh as compared to the Greek Septuagint?

[Wolseley]

You might try doing a web search on "Council of Jamnia" and see what comes up. :)

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by Wolseley
You might try doing a web search on "Council of Jamnia" and see what comes up. :)

Well that helps Wolseley heres a paragraph from a page I landed on:
--
ABSTRACT
A basic feature of most liberal theories of the Old Testament canon is an alleged council held at Jamnia about AD 90 which is supposed to have canonized or at least finalized the Writings or Hagiographa, the third division of the Hebrew Old Testament. In this paper--a reprint of the article appearing in the Westminster Theological Journal 38 (Spring, 1976)--the Talmudic evidence for such a council is surveyed. It is concluded that there is no real evidence for such a council nor for any binding canonical decisions at that time. Instead there appears to have existed a consensus on the content of the Old Testament in the first century AD which was already ancient at that time..
http://www.ibri.org/13jamnia.html
--

My main concensus being that there must be a very strong underlying reason for why the Tanakh does not contain the extra books. And the Tanakh is supposed to be based on the original hebrew as opposed to the later Greek version.

As a for instance, Jesus would have read from the Tanakh books, not the Septuagint which either did not exist in his time, or existed only among the Jews in Greece, to which place he never visited as far as I know...

My interest being not in ALL books but the ones that Jesus was learned in...

[Live4Jesus]

Which is probably the same issue Jerome and Luther had with the extra books if I conjecture correctly...

[dignitized]

live for: they rejected those books mainly because they were frequently used to support Christian teachings by early Christians. *shrug* Scripture or not - they have a great deal of value as historic documents in that they proclaim what was believed by the Jews at the time of Christ. :)

[Wolseley]

The conservative rabbis at Jamnia wanted to do away with the books of Maccabees, due to the fact that the books contain evidence of friendship treaties and alliances between the Jews and the Roman Republic, and it was the Roman Empire that had just finished knocking down Herod's temple. They also wanted to do away with the wisdom books, which seemed to reinforce the Christian doctrines of Christ as Savior (see Wisdom 2:12-22, for example).

Luther's major kick with them was due to 2 Maccabees 12:38-46, which reinforces the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory.

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by Br. Max
live for: they rejected those books mainly because they were frequently used to support Christian teachings by early Christians. *shrug* Scripture or not - they have a great deal of value as historic documents in that they proclaim what was believed by the Jews at the time of Christ. :)

I should probably browse them, I can recognize most gnostic stuff by now at least it was dangerous when I couldn't,,, I just hate going into areas that are muddy is all, gets so confusing...

I dunno.

Wolseley you know offhand the original source (or close) of Maccabees? Most protestant and actually all denoms except catholicsim teach otherwise (against purgatory) there must be a reason... but i have seen ghosts Wolsely and I have always wondered.... whats the deal... and lots of people have told me those are alkll demons, no I really think they are some of them simply ghosts of the dead... not demons in a technical sense... I have seen demons too they are different... strange but I leave room for my own error there obviously...

I stlll need a strictly Jewish perspective, both of you guys is tainted with catholicism maybe... which is neither here nor there but a real jewish perspective would be nice,,,, so hard to know what to trust on the web...

[Wolseley]

"Tainted with Catholicism". Nice.

Let me correct you: I believe that the Catholic Church is the most complete repository of all revealed truth. I fully align myself with the Holy Father and the Sacred Magesterium, and I willingly and voluntarily offer my complete adherence and obedience to all Traditions, teachings, dogmas, and doctrines of the Catholic Faith.

Am I "tainted" with Catholicism? You bet your sweet boiled potatoes I am. And I intend to stay that way.

Now that we're clear on that, 1 Maccabees was written about 100 BC by an unknown Palestinian Jew who was familiar with pre-Hasmonean Jewish literature and the history of his people between 175 BC and 134 BC.

2 Maccabees was written about the same general time; the author is also unknown, but states that his book is an abridegment of a longer five-volume work of one Jason of Cyrene, which since has been lost.

If you send a PM to stillsmallvoice, I am sure he might be able to help you with the Jewish perspective on Maccabees.

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by Wolseley
"Tainted with Catholicism". Nice.


Didn't mean to upset you Wolseley, just had no other way of saying it simply enough...

Just as I am tainted by protestantisms, and reformisms, and messianicism, you bet your sweet potatoes I am... and intend to stay that way...

:)

Thanks for the info. :clap:

[VOW]

IIRC, the Septuagint was not in GREECE, but translated into Greek for the library of Alexandria.


Peace,
~VOW

[dignitized]

The Septuagint was translated in Alexandria for the Jewish community there. Greek was at that time the Lingua franca of the "known world" i.e. - the Mediterranean world. The diaspora Jews all spoke Greek which is why outside of Judea the Septuagint became the standard Scriptural translation while in Judea the Aramaic was the translation of choice.

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by Br. Max
The Septuagint was translated in Alexandria for the Jewish community there. Greek was at that time the Lingua franca of the "known world" i.e. - the Mediterranean world. The diaspora Jews all spoke Greek which is why outside of Judea the Septuagint became the standard Scriptural translation while in Judea the Aramaic was the translation of choice.

So why the extra books do you know?

[dignitized]

live4jesus: outside of Judea these books were accepted as canonical. which means to the majority of Jews, as more Jews lived outside of Judea by this point than in, in the heart of Synagogue Judaism (the first recorded synagogue was in Alexandria in Egypt) the "extra" books were part of the canon. I think the scribes who held am monopoly on the scriptures in Judea were the main reason they were never accepted as canon there. The council at Jamnia rejected these text on the basis that 1 - they were favored by Christians and 2 they never recived wide usage in Jerusalem amongst the scribes.

Funny though, how people will us the dead sea scrolls as evidence of the orthodox of a canon forgetting that the sect that left that cache of manuscripts was a HERETICAL sect!! lol

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by Br. Max

Funny though, how people will us the dead sea scrolls as evidence of the orthodox of a canon forgetting that the sect that left that cache of manuscripts was a HERETICAL sect!! lol

Nah not me.. personally I dont trust anything that came out of either the dead sea scrolls or nag hammadi (however you spell it) digs.

Considering all the gnostic stuff mixed in... kind of like how joseph smith met god in my opinion...

[VOW]

I thought the gnostic stuff was quasi-New Testament...

And there are instances of the Deuteros being quoted or paraphrased in the NT canon, indicating that the Jesus and the Apostles had access to those books as well.


Peace,
~VOW

[dignitized]

live4: good. :) Are you aware, that every NT quotation of OT passages are word for word from the septuigint? This fact speaks volumes for the accpetability of these entire text by the apostolic fathers and the apostles :)

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by VOW
I thought the gnostic stuff was quasi-New Testament...

And there are instances of the Deuteros being quoted or paraphrased in the NT canon, indicating that the Jesus and the Apostles had access to those books as well.


Peace,
~VOW

Depending on your perspective I suppose.

Whether which one derived from the other would have to be questioned at that point I suppose... and/or added to and by whom would come into question as well.

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by Br. Max
live4: good. :) Are you aware, that every NT quotation of OT passages are word for word from the septuigint? This fact speaks volumes for the accpetability of these entire text by the apostolic fathers and the apostles :)

Still meaningless Br Max isn't it? you have to prove at that point which came first... which obviously would be the Hebrew version.

I get the impression you are implying that the Hebrews looked to the Greeks and not vice versa?

I don't know I haven't actually gotten that far as to dig that one up... why it would be worth the trouble you'd have to convince me,,, then of course I'd have to convince myself...

I am probably hard to disuade away from the notion that the Hebrews were meticulous bookkeepers all by themselves...

I've also noticed that when anything travels it picks up a bit of the countryside just trying to fit in... if you get my gist...

Didn't Jesus speak Aramaic? I am leaning that direction based on that... I've looked into some leads put here and haven't found anything convincing tell you the truth...

some book about some guys dream... hmmm...

The one thing about all the other Tanakh books is that they uphold each other, they flow... the jewish perspective seems to be a case of 'illegitimate authorship' I have checked that also...

I'm praying on it if it be for me I think He'll drop it in my lap at some point and make it irrefutable, usually how it goes round here...

But thats all good info and it helped, thank you.

[Live4Jesus]

You know I guess also... knowing God a little bit and how He works... maybe they were dropped for a reason from the 'protestant' bibles KJV etc... y'know? If He had wanted it, He would have gotten it... Know it.

I find it wierd that only the catholic bibles have the xtra stuff thats all. I haven't found it anywhere else.

[Chris†opher Paul]

Apparently the writers of the New Testament books thought that the Septanguit was superior, since they quoted from it, and not the Jewish OT.

(Compare the wording of the OT quotes in the NT, and you will see that they match the Septanguit exactly)

I guess the RCC knew what it was doing after all. :clap:

[Chris†opher Paul]

Matt. 2:16 - Herod's decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.

Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus' statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.

Matt.. 7:12 - Jesus' golden rule "do unto others" is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.

Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus' statement "you will know them by their fruits" follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.

Matt. 9:36 - the people were "like sheep without a shepherd" is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.

Matt. 11:25 - Jesus' description "Lord of heaven and earth" is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.

Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus' reference to the "power of death" and "gates of Hades" references Wisdom 16:13.

Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.

Matt. 24:15 - the "desolating sacrilege" Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.

Matt. 24:16 - let those "flee to the mountains" is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.

Matt. 27:43 - if He is God's Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.

Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus' description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.

Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.

Luke 1:42 - Elizabeth's declaration of Mary's blessedness above all women follows Uzziah's declaration in Judith 13:18.

Luke 1:52 - Mary's magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.

Luke 2:29 - Simeon's declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.

Luke 13:29 - the Lord's description of men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37.

Luke 21:24 - Jesus' usage of "fall by the edge of the sword" follows Sirach 28:18.

Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 - Luke's description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.

John 1:3 - all things were made through Him, the Word, follows Wisdom 9:1.

John 3:13 - who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven references Baruch 3:29.

John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 - Jesus', Luke's and Paul's usage of "signs and wonders" follows Wisdom 8:8.

John 5:18 - Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.

John 6:35-59 - Jesus' Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21.

John 10:22 - the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Macc. 4:59.

John 15:6 - branches that don't bear fruit and are cut down follows Wis. 4:5 where branches are broken off.

Acts 1:15 - Luke's reference to the 120 may be a reference to 1 Macc. 3:55 - leaders of tens / restoration of the twelve.

Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11; Gal. 2:6 - Peter's and Paul's statement that God shows no partiality references Sirach 35:12.

Acts 17:29 - description of false gods as like gold and silver made by men follows Wisdom 13:10.

Rom 1:18-25 - Paul's teaching on the knowledge of the Creator and the ignorance and sin of idolatry follows Wis. 13:1-10.

Rom. 1:20 - specifically, God's existence being evident in nature follows Wis. 13:1.

Rom. 1:23 - the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.

Rom. 1:24-27 - this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.

Rom. 4:17 - Abraham is a father of many nations follows Sirach 44:19.

Rom. 5:12 - description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to Wisdom 2:24.

Rom. 9:21 - usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels follows Wisdom 15:7.

1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul's question, "who has known the mind of the Lord?" references Wisdom 9:13.

1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 - warning that, while all things are good, beware of gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.

1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul acknowledging many "gods" but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.

1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul's description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.

1 Cor. 10:20 - what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers to Baruch 4:7.

1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.

Eph. 1:17 - Paul's prayer for a "spirit of wisdom" follows the prayer for the spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.

Eph. 6:14 - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1Thess. 5:8.

Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.

1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul's description of God as Sovereign and King of kings is from 2 Macc. 12:15; 13:4.

2 Tim. 4:8 - Paul's description of a crown of righteousness is similar to Wisdom 5:16.

Heb. 4:12 - Paul's description of God's word as a sword is similar to Wisdom 18:15.

Heb. 11:5 - Enoch being taken up is also referenced in Wis 4:10 and Sir 44:16. See also 2 Kings 2:1-13 & Sir 48:9 regarding Elijah.

Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 6:18, 7:1-42.

Heb. 12:12 - the description "drooping hands" and "weak knees" comes from Sirach 25:23.

James 1:19 - let every man be quick to hear and slow to respond follows Sirach 5:11.

James 2:23 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness follows 1 Macc. 2:52 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

James 3:13 - James' instruction to perform works in meekness follows Sirach 3:17.

James 5:3 - describing silver which rusts and laying up treasure follows Sirach 29:10-11.

James 5:6 - condemning and killing the "righteous man" follows Wisdom 2:10-20.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter teaches about testing faith by purgatorial fire as described in Wisdom 3:5-6 and Sirach 2:5.

1 Peter 1:17 - God judging each one according to his deeds refers to Sirach 16:12 - God judges man according to his deeds.

2 Peter 2:7 - God's rescue of a righteous man (Lot) is also described in Wisdom 10:6.

Rev. 1:18; Matt. 16:18 - power of life over death and gates of Hades follows Wis. 16:13.

Rev. 2:12 - reference to the two-edged sword is similar to the description of God's Word in Wisdom 18:16.

Rev. 5:7 - God is described as seated on His throne, and this is the same description used in Sirach 1:8.

Rev. 8:3-4 - prayers of the saints presented to God by the hand of an angel follows Tobit 12:12,15.

Rev. 8:7 - raining of hail and fire to the earth follows Wisdom 16:22 and Sirach 39:29.

Rev. 9:3 - raining of locusts on the earth follows Wisdom 16:9.

Rev. 11:19 - the vision of the ark of the covenant (Mary) in a cloud of glory was prophesied in 2 Macc. 2:7.

Rev. 17:14 - description of God as King of kings follows 2 Macc. 13:4.

Rev. 19:1 - the cry "Hallelujah" at the coming of the new Jerusalem follows Tobit 13:18.

Rev. 19:11 - the description of the Lord on a white horse in the heavens follows 2 Macc. 3:25; 11:8.

Rev. 19:16 - description of our Lord as King of kings is taken from 2 Macc. 13:4.

Rev. 21:19 - the description of the new Jerusalem with precious stones is prophesied in Tobit 13:17.

Exodus 23:7 - do not slay the innocent and righteous - Dan. 13:53 - do not put to death an innocent and righteous person.

2 Tim. 3:16 - the inspired Scripture that Paul was referring to included the deuterocanonical texts that the Protestants removed. The books Baruch, Tobit, Maccabees, Judith, Sirach, Wisdom were all included in the Septuagint that Jesus and the apostles used.

The Protestants attempt to defend their rejection of the deuterocanonicals on the ground that the early Jews rejected them. However, the Jewish councils that rejected them (e.g., council of Jamnia in 200 A.D.) were the same councils that rejected the entire New Testatment canon. Thus, Protestants who reject the Catholic Bible are following a Jewish council who rejected Christ and the Revelation of the New Testament.

[Live4Jesus]

Thanks that looks like it was a lot of work!

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by s0uljah

2 Tim. 3:16 - the inspired Scripture that Paul was referring to included the deuterocanonical texts that the Protestants removed. The books Baruch, Tobit, Maccabees, Judith, Sirach, Wisdom were all included in the Septuagint that Jesus and the apostles used. [/v]

'cept this, can you prove Jesus used the Septuagint? 2 Tim. 3:16 just says scripture/inspired, doesn't say any was removed...


Originally posted by s0uljah
[B]
The Protestants attempt to defend their rejection of the deuterocanonicals on the ground that the early Jews rejected them. However, the Jewish councils that rejected them (e.g., council of Jamnia in 200 A.D.) were the same councils that rejected the entire New Testatment canon. Thus, Protestants who reject the Catholic Bible are following a Jewish council who rejected Christ and the Revelation of the New Testament.

I know. They rejected all writings that didn't see as being traditional, handed down as original... which obviously included the apocraphyl Septuagint writings in their opinion, for a reason.

I got that! Thanks!

[dignitized]

There is only ONE Christian canon which is short the deuterocanonical texts. The Coptic, the Armenian, the Orthodox, the Syrian and the Catholic canons all have deuterocanonical texts. To say that only the "catholics" have them and no one else does shows how ignorant people have become of Christian History prior to Martin Luther. :sigh:

[dignitized]

Armenian Church: The noteworthy features of the Armenian version of the Bible was the inclusion of certain books that elsewhere was regarded as apocryphal. The Old Testament included the History of Joseph and Asenath and the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, and the New Testament included the Epistle of Corinthians to Paul and a Third Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians.

Coptic Church: Athanasius issued his Thirty-Ninth Festal Epistle not only in the Greek but also in Coptic, in a slightly different form - though the list of the twenty seven books of the New Testament is the same in both languages. How far, however the list remained authoritative for the Copts is problematical. The Coptic (Bohairic) translation of the collection knowns as the Eighty-Five Apostlic Canons concludes with a different sequence of the books of the New Testament and is enlarged by the addition of two others: the four Gospels; the Acts of the Apostles; the fourteen Epistles of Paul (not mentioned individually); two Epistles of Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude; the Apocalypse of John; the two Epistles of Clement.

Ethiopic (Abyssinian) Church: This Church has the largest Bible of all, and and distinguishes different canons, the "narrower" and the "broader" according to the extent of the New Testament. The Ethiopic Old Testament comprises the books of the Hebrew Bible as well as all of the deuterocanonical books listed above, along with Jubilees, I Enoch, and Joseph ben Gorion's (Josippon's) medieval history of the Jews and other nations. The New Testament in what is referred to as the "broader" canon is made up of thirty-five books, joining to the usual twenty-seven books eight additional texts, namely four sections of church order from a compilation called Sinodos, two sections from the Ethiopic Book of the Covenant, Ethiopic Clement, and Ethiopic Didascalia. When the "narrower" New Testament canon is followed, it is made up of only the familiar twenty-seven books, but then the Old Testament books are divided differently so that they make up 54 books instead of 46. In both the narrower and broader canon, the total number of books comes to 81.

Greek Orthodox Church: The Bible of the Greek Orthodox church comprises all of the books accepted by the Roman Catholic church, plus I Esdras, the Prayer of Manasseh, Psalm 151, and 3 Maccabees. The Slavonic canon adds 2 Esdras, but designates I and 2 Esdras as 2 and 3 Esdras. Other Eastern churches have 4 Maccabees as well.

Roman Catholic Church: The Protestant canon took shape by rejecting a number of books and parts of books that had for centuries been part of the Old Testament in the Greek Septuagint and in the Latin Vulgate, and had gained wide acceptance within the Roman Catholic church. In response to the Protestant Reformation, at the Council of Trent (1546) the Catholic church accepted, as deuterocanonical, Tobit, Judith, the Greek additions to Esther, the Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, Baruch, the Letter of Jeremiah, three Greek additions to Daniel (the Prayer of Azariah and the Song of the Three Jews, Susanna, and Bel and the Dragon), and I and 2 Maccabees. These books, together with those in the Jewish canon and the New Testament, constitute the total of seventy three books accepted by the Roman Catholic church.

Syriac Church: Syriac Churches used the Diatesseron, the four-in-one Gospel, introduced by Tatian, and was read in the Syriac Churches for quite some time before it was replaced by Pe****ta. Pe****ta has again a different number of Books in the New Testament. This represents for the New Testament an accommodation of the canon of the Syrians with that of the Greeks. Third Corinthians was rejected, and, in addition to the fourteen Pauline Epistles (including Hebrews, following Philemon), three longer Catholic Epistles (James, 1 Peter, and 1 John) were included. The four shorter Catholic Epistles (2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, and Jude) and the Apocalypse are absent from the Pe****ta Syriac version, and thus the Syriac canon of the New Testament contained but twenty-two writings. For a large part of the Syrian Church this constituted the closing of the canon, for after the Council of Ephesus (431 CE) the East Syrians separated themselves as Nestorians from the Great Church.