Homosexual Churches

[fisherma]

There is a church near my house that holds around 50 people who profess to be "gay Christians". I went in one day for 5 minutes just to see if it were true or not and what I saw were a bunch of men sitting together! There were only a few women. I took some of their pamplets and one of them was saying something about how gays should be accepted in churches and god loves them.

My concern is.. how can such a church even exist! My soul is grieved knowing that these people can actually praise God with their lifestylye the way it is.

Any comments?

[Screamin-GOD-Till-I-Die]

i think you are beign ignorant why cant they its liek saying becauce your a gangster means you cant love god because u kill a lot.....killing and being gay is a sin btu in gods eyes there is nto oen bigger sin than any other so if they can ask for forgivness why cant gay's?

[MizDoulos]

Note:&nbsp&nbspSince this topic is a volatile one, I urge all members to refrain from making derogatory, insulting, or belittling comments. You may express your opinions, but keep them objective and on topic. Any personal disagreements should be discussed privately through the e-mail or private message option through your profile page.

If any rules are broken, the thread will be closed and/or warnings issued.

Thank you for your cooperation.


Please comply with the rules of the forum.

[Homie]

I do not understand this line of thinking either. Sure we all sin, but we ask forgiveness for our sins as well, and admit that whatever we did was wrong. So here lies the differance: The homosexuals are PROUD of their sin, that is not right. If I were to sleep with a man (a sin) and then repent, it would be a wrongdoing like all sins. But if I were to sleep with a man and say, I think I'll keep doing this, I will not repent, this is OK even though it is not Ok in Gods eyes. That would be wrong, what we call living a sin.

Screamin-GOD-Till-I-Die, can you see how it is different? I am not saying we should threat them badly, we should show them christian love and pray for them. But preaching that your sin is not wrong, that is not acceptable.

[dignitized]

God does love all men - including gays and gangsters and believe it or not - WOMAN TOO!! ;)

HOWEVER - the scriptures are clear that HOMOSEXUAL sex is an abhoration and a sin.

[dignitized]

Men is good at deceiving himself. We do it all the time. Look at those who deceive themselves into believing that there is no God - or those who deceive themselves into believing that one "race" is superior to another. *sigh* If they are ignorant of the truth truly in thier hearts, we have to trust them God's mercy and judgement. IF they are attempting with full knowledge that they are wrong - to deceive others - that is another story. We have no right to condemn them, but we have a duty to speak the truth to them in love. REMEMBER IN LOVE!! :)

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by Br. Max
Men is good at deceiving himself. We do it all the time. Look at those who deceive themselves into believing that there is no God - or those who deceive themselves into believing that one "race" is superior to another. *sigh* If they are ignorant of the truth truly in thier hearts, we have to trust them God's mercy and judgement. IF they are attempting with full knowledge that they are wrong - to deceive others - that is another story. We have no right to condemn them, but we have a duty to speak the truth to them in love. REMEMBER IN LOVE!! :)

Yea I think it's good they seek... it's a real good sign even I wish my lesbian sister would... it's when they want to tell me God condones their behavior I get a little edgy... maybe it's another god then I figure because it's obviously not the same one whose word I read..... at that point maybe they just like to wear a christian hat for some reason or another... then again as time goes by you never do know how God will work with them...

I pray for them I really do. It's kind of one instance where you can say for sure, these people are deceived... but I was once too and He walked me through it sooo.... it's the heart that matters.

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by fisherma
There is a church near my house that holds around 50 people who profess to be "gay Christians". I went in one day for 5 minutes just to see if it were true or not and what I saw were a bunch of men sitting together! There were only a few women. I took some of their pamplets and one of them was saying something about how gays should be accepted in churches and god loves them.

My concern is.. how can such a church even exist! My soul is grieved knowing that these people can actually praise God with their lifestylye the way it is.

Any comments?

Hey but whats worse is when they put a sign out front that indicates christian church, then a nice family goes in and gets all the wrong teaching... but I leave this one to God His eyes are a lot bigger than mine...

[Andrew]

fisherma, i think you need to clarify if the church supports gayism. ie it says that gay activities are not sinful but acceptable to God.

The church shld accept sinners into their doors, so that they can hear abt the love of God and be saved and transformed, and have the grace to change by the power of the Holy Spirit in them.

[kern]

OK, but here's the question -- let's assume that these people are proud of their "sin" and are unrepentant. Where do you think they will be more likely to eventually come to repentance? Going to church every week, or not because the Christians there told them they were not welcome?

-Chris

[seebs]

Originally posted by fisherma

My concern is.. how can such a church even exist! My soul is grieved knowing that these people can actually praise God with their lifestylye the way it is.

Any comments?

Yes. My soul is grieved knowing that anyone could ever object to God being praised. Did you even read what you wrote there? How can sincere praise to God be anything but good?

God loves us all, and if He can put up with me and my sins, I can see no reason for which He can't love a gay guy.

[Andrew]

I think fisherma is refering to "gay churches" ie the pastors and all are gay and believe and preach that its not a sin to do what gays do. ie man-man/woman-woman sex is not a sin and perfectly natural and acceptable to God. I've heard churches like that in the US are sprouting up.

This is totally different from a gay stumbling into a church where he is accepted and loved unto repentence. In the first case, they dont believe there is any need to repent becos they dont believe (and can support with scriputres) its a sin.

[seebs]

Originally posted by Andrew
I think fisherma is refering to "gay churches" ie the pastors and all are gay and believe and preach that its not a sin to do what gays do. ie man-man/woman-woman sex is not a sin and perfectly natural and acceptable to God. I've heard churches like that in the US are sprouting up.

I've heard of no such thing. I know many denominations agree that gays are fine, but I've never heard of an all-gay church.


This is totally different from a gay stumbling into a church where he is accepted and loved unto repentence. In the first case, they dont believe there is any need to repent becos they dont believe (and can support with scriputres) its a sin.

Right. Sort of like most people today don't think a mixed-race marriage is a sin, but a hundred years ago, we would have been treated about the way people today are treating denominations that accept gays.

I still find it terrifying to imagine that anyone would ever object to God being praised.

[Blade]

Well Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commandments. If I am cheating on my wife and and been told it's wrong according to Gods word and shown, and do not change I do not love Jesus. Jesus said I would rather you be hot or cold if you are worm I will spit you out of my mouth. It's so sad that people think they can live in sin and still make it to heaven. God loves everyone no matter what the sin. But don't be decived Jesus is comming back for a church with out one spot. Maybe I'm just preaching to myself :D

[PastorFreud]

Where, besides the misuderstood book of Revelation, do you find God holding His children in His mouth? This verse and this concept is overused.

Is this a Metropolitan Community Church? I found their statement of faith online, and except for accepting homosexuality as normal, their beliefs are very fundamental.

[Andrew]

I've heard of no such thing. I know many denominations agree that gays are fine, but I've never heard of an all-gay church.

r u so naive? Here's one example. read one of their sermons, she basically preaches that its ok to be gay and Christian at the same time. I think she is for ordination of gay pastors/preachers too.

http://www.jesusmcc.org/about_us/about_us.html

you canprob find more egs yourself from the Net.

one of the main arguments of gay preachers is that they say that when Paul condemned unnatural sex, it was condemned as unnatural so long as that is not your "natural inclination".

IOW if you are male and naturally inclined to be attracted to a woman, then having sex with a man is unnatural and condemned in the Bible.

However, if you are male and naturally inclined to be attracted to another male, then having sex with another man is "natural" and not a sin. But having sex with a woman wld be sinful!

[fragmentsofdreams]

Originally posted by seebs
I've heard of no such thing. I know many denominations agree that gays are fine, but I've never heard of an all-gay church.


The Metropolitan Community Church, started by a Methodist (I think) minister who was kicked out because he was gay, is predominantly gay.

[Bruno]

To God, homosexual is no worse than a liar. A sin is a sin.
Who are we to judge these people. If they TRULY seek God, they will find Him. He will show them the Truth and they have a choice to follow it, or not.

[sbbqb7n16]

That church needs to learn what "repent" means... also that type of stuff is strictly forbidden for the church Acts 15 (I think 15 :) there's a letter in that chapter somewhere or a chapter around it lol)

I think that many people in here are doing something that is a logical fallacy... "well I commit ___ sin and I worship God so I guess it's okay if they do ____ and worship Him too..." what you fail to bring up is that...

There shouldn't be homosexuals or liars or ANY sin in the church at all!! Now can we get it that way... probably not, but that's what it is supposed to be. Maybe the plank in the eye thing comes into play here... I don't know for sure... But I know this: homosexuality is a sin. REGARDLESS of what church is gay, or what sin another church commits, homosexuality is wrong and should not be there.

[kern]

Originally posted by sbbqb7n16
There shouldn't be homosexuals or liars or ANY sin in the church at all!! [/B]

"On hearing this, Jesus said to them, 'It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.'"

-Chris

[Stormy]

You keep them out of your churches.
You think that you are doing God's will?

They form their own churches. You want them closed.
You think that you are doing God's will?

You look at their sin and judge them unworthy to worship God.
You think that you are God?

You step into their church and you can see their sin... for it is obvious.

But God can step into your church and see your sin...
for it is obvious to him.

[two feathers]

well said, stormy.

[dignitized]

I think stromy has a very valid point. If you don't want them in your own churches why are you kvetching about them forming a church?

[kern]

Good post, Stormy.

-Chris

[Homie]

I don't get the "defensive" attitude of some of the posters here. I think no one suggested that gays should not be allowed in church, but preaching that homosexuality is ok and not a sin = false teaching. And if they have their own churches there would certainly be preaching, would there not?

Some poster here mentioned that for God every sin is equal so do not judge them so hard (I am paraphrasing). So from that reasoning think about this: A group of thieves has formed their own church, they teach that stealing is ok and wear "Proud to be a thief" badges. Would any of you condone such a church?

[Bruno]

Show them lovingly where the Holy Bible explains plainly what they preach is a sin. Back it up with God's Word and Love, NOT hate!

HATE IS NEVER THE ANSWER!!!

[fragmentsofdreams]

Originally posted by Homie
I don't get the "defensive" attitude of some of the posters here. I think no one suggested that gays should not be allowed in church, but preaching that homosexuality is ok and not a sin = false teaching. And if they have their own churches there would certainly be preaching, would there not?

Some poster here mentioned that for God every sin is equal so do not judge them so hard (I am paraphrasing). So from that reasoning think about this: A group of thieves has formed their own church, they teach that stealing is ok and wear "Proud to be a thief" badges. Would any of you condone such a church?

I would not consider their church to be an abomination. I would be happy that they are praising God rather than ignoring Him like so many people do these days. Then, I would approach them as a fellow Christian and talk to them about it, making sure to listen to their concerns and the reasons why they steal. Only by understanding them can I hope to correct what is wrong. If I only treat the symptoms of a disease, the patient will still die.

[dignitized]

Originally posted by Homie
I don't get the "defensive" attitude of some of the posters here. I think no one suggested that gays should not be allowed in church, but preaching that homosexuality is ok and not a sin = false teaching. And if they have their own churches there would certainly be preaching, would there not?

Some poster here mentioned that for God every sin is equal so do not judge them so hard (I am paraphrasing). So from that reasoning think about this: A group of thieves has formed their own church, they teach that stealing is ok and wear "Proud to be a thief" badges. Would any of you condone such a church?

 

Homie: I'm not defending their forming their own church or those churches that teach that homosexuality is acceptable. The point is - do you attack drug addicts who come to church as soon as they come through the door telling them they will burn in hell?  Cause that is the reaction they [homosexuals] tend to get in a lot of "mainline" churches. 

[seebs]

Originally posted by Bruno
Show them lovingly where the Holy Bible explains plainly what they preach is a sin.

And when they say "that's nice, but that's not how I interpret it", and point you at the clear Biblical support for things *you* reject, because you interpret the Bible differently, perhaps it's time to admit that interpretation is a bit harder than you thought.

[JesusServant]

Originally posted by kern
"On hearing this, Jesus said to them, 'It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.'"

-Chris

Which was everyone ;)

[JesusServant]

Originally posted by Stormy
You keep them out of your churches.
You think that you are doing God's will?

They form their own churches. You want them closed.
You think that you are doing God's will?

You look at their sin and judge them unworthy to worship God.
You think that you are God?

You step into their church and you can see their sin... for it is obvious.

But God can step into your church and see your sin...
for it is obvious to him.

Well put Stormy.

[his-girl]

Stormy,

Excellent post!

[Andrew]

... I think no one suggested that gays should not be allowed in church, but preaching that homosexuality is ok and not a sin = false teaching. And if they have their own churches there would certainly be preaching, would there not?

I'd amen that. :)

No one is rejecting the sinner. But if there's nothing wrong with what they are doing, then paedophiles might as well set up their own churches too, invite their own kind and preach that what they are doing is natural, ok and not a sin --- and give Christianity a bad name.

[PastorFreud]

Originally posted by Andrew
I'd amen that. :)

No one is rejecting the sinner. But if there's nothing wrong with what they are doing, then paedophiles might as well set up their own churches too, invite their own kind and preach that what they are doing is natural, ok and not a sin --- and give Christianity a bad name.

I hate it when people associate homosexuality and pedophilia.  The two are not the same.  Please, please stop making this comparison.

And people reach the conclusion that homosexuality is a sin by reading Scritpure a particular way.  If you read Scripture without taking into account the original language, the cultural context, the literary form, the historical context, and the overall purpose of the larger text, then you are not loving God with all your mind.  You are devoting yourself to discipleship.  You are focusing on specific verses and asserting that what you think they mean is what God meant for certain.  I believe this is arrogant.  It is not the Spirit of Christ. 

[kern]

Originally posted by Andrew

No one is rejecting the sinner. But if there's nothing wrong with what they are doing, then paedophiles might as well set up their own churches too, invite their own kind and preach that what they are doing is natural, ok and not a sin --- and give Christianity a bad name.

Why do people insist on comparing homosexuals and pedophiles (bestiality is another popular comparison)? The two are different in a number of important ways. Can people really not see that?

-Chris

[seebs]

One reason to compare homosexuals and pedophiles is that they have a few traits in common:
1. There is no known way to change these qualities.
2. They appear to, in general, be fixed fairly early on.

On the other hand, look at other things that, so far as we know, share these qualities: right-handedness, heterosexuality, left-handedness... Handedness and sexuality are pretty much inherent in almost everybody.

To be fair, though, the conclusion I draw is that being a pedophile isn't sinful, but having sex with children is. Why? Because I can point to someone who is harmed in the process.

[PastorFreud]

I, of course, would argue with the language of "being." I am in favor of ridding our language of all constructions of "is", but that would appear to be the topic of another thread.

A person who has attractions toward sex with children but does not act on them appears to be different than the one who has attractions and does act on them. We should limit sexual activity with children, but to require the same of consenting adults would appear illogical.

[seebs]

Agreed - but, for better or worse, some words are based on desires, and some are based on actions. A silly language, I'm afraid.

[fragmentsofdreams]

Pedophiles have a (deserved) social stigma that is much stronger than that currently placed on homosexuals. By connecting the two, people hope that some of that stigma will cross over. It is the same as those who compare any military act to acts of terrorism.

[dignitized]

Can a person be a believing confessing Christian and a homosexual? I think that this is the real question here.

[kern]

Yes. Why wouldn't it be, regardless of whether or not you consider "being homosexual" a sin? Are there any other sins that disqualify you from being a Christian?

Even if they believe it is not a sin and they are wrong, that's merely an additional sin -- doesn't mean they aren't a Christian. Unless you are saying that anyone who sins and believes they are not sinning is out.

-Chris

[seebs]

Originally posted by Br. Max
Can a person be a believing confessing Christian and a homosexual? I think that this is the real question here.

I dunno. Can someone be a believing confessing Christian and a slaver? I think history says "fortunately, yes".

Some might think it's unfortunate, but I don't. Did slavers do something horrible? You betcha. So, isn't it *more* important, if that's even possible, that they are able to receive forgiveness?

A church that couldn't accept them couldn't accept most of us, if there were any justice. Me, I'm glad God has such insanely low standards.

[Ryder]

Bearing in mind that it is still unlikely that God will not confront that sin in their lives. A homosexual church that continues to grow and whose members consistently show no signs of turning from homosexual activity is (at the least) sending some conflicting messages out about 'fruit of the spirit' growing/not growing. Can a slave driver be saved, yes! If he/she is saved it is not likely they will continue to beat bloody their slaves 'till the grave however. I'm not the judge (duh) ,maybe they'd still be saved! But it is hardly encouraging behaviour from an outside perspective when it persists like that.

[seebs]

Originally posted by Ryder Veldhuis
Bearing in mind that it is still unlikely that God will not confront that sin in their lives. A homosexual church that continues to grow and whose members consistently show no signs of turning from homosexual activity is (at the least) sending some conflicting messages out about 'fruit of the spirit' growing/not growing. Can a slave driver be saved, yes! If he/she is saved it is not likely they will continue to beat bloody their slaves 'till the grave however. I'm not the judge (duh) ,maybe they'd still be saved! But it is hardly encouraging behaviour from an outside perspective when it persists like that.

Well, here's the thing. Let's imagine a behavior, and I won't name what the behavior is. And let's say that there's a church that teaches that people who do this behavior can still be Christians, and not be sinning. Now, let's say we watch the congregation for a while. A couple of them give up drinking. One becomes active in charity work. A few of them start being kinder to their coworkers. Over time, in fact, we see unambiguous evidence that the Holy Spirit is active in reclaiming these souls... But they still engage in the behavior, and none of them seem to be convicted against it.

Is the behavior actually sinful? I don't know. Four examples of behaviors of which you could say the above are:
1. Homosexual sex.
2. Use of birth control.
3. Ownership of slaves.
4. Monogamous, heterosexual, sex with your spouse.

So, I don't think we can say whether or not it's sinful... only that it's apparently within God's capacity to forgive.

I personally have come to believe that most modern Christian teachings about homosexuality are the result of people misinterpreting Scripture through ignorance around a thousand years ago, and that the churches which have dropped that particular plank from their platform are closer to God's will on the subject. I believe this, partially, simply because gay Christians exist, and exhibit the fruits of the spirit so manifestly that I cannot honestly deny them. Given that, I can only conclude that, if God wanted to change these people, He would.

[kern]

I agree that *if* homosexuality is a sin, then a "homosexual church" is not something God would want. However, if doing something God didn't want you to meant you were not a Christian, then we'd all be in trouble.

-Chris

[Ryder]

I personally think *it* IS a sin, but yeah, I don't think it's beyond Gods ability to forgive. I suppose I actually have more to argue against a pastor that says it isn't a sin than the people who do it. And yeah, there could be ALOT of evidence of the HS in other areas of their lives. I just have a beef with pastors that teach it isn't a sin, because it is. (and these days it's becoming politically incorrect kryptonite to call gay a sin).

[fragmentsofdreams]

Not all preachers who believe that homosexuality is not a sin are acting out of political correctness. Many believe that homosexuality as we are concerned about today is not a sin (using the Bible to support their conclusion).

[PastorFreud]

Originally posted by fragmentsofdreams
Not all preachers who believe that homosexuality is not a sin are acting out of political correctness. Many believe that homosexuality as we are concerned about today is not a sin (using the Bible to support their conclusion).

Yep!  My point exactly.  I would understand the outrage if the Church decided to let the outside world make the definitions.  But I come by my opinion by studying the text, accepting it as authoritative, and seeking to love God with my whole mind.

[kern]

Originally posted by Ryder Veldhuis
I just have a beef with pastors that teach it isn't a sin, because it is. (and these days it's becoming politically incorrect kryptonite to call gay a sin).

As the other people said, what do you say about people who sincerely believe that homosexuality is not a sin, and they believe that the Bible backs them up on it? Obviously you think they are wrong, but are they so wrong that they are no longer Christian?

-Chris

[Homie]

People are seriously saying that homoxeuality is not a sin and they say they can back this up with the Bible!!! I'd like to see this interpretation, flawed I'm sure but it would be interesting to see how they figure homosexuality is not a sin according to the Bible.

[kern]

Feel free to browse the several threads that are about that, I don't feel like having the long discussion again. Just do a search for "homosexuality bible" and you should find several very long threads about it.

I think that seebs can also give you some links to pages that explain the various verses.

I might be willing to have this discussion through e-mail, but never on these boards again; I'm tired of being accused of intentionally twisting scripture, posting just to cause strife and division, and not being a Christian.

-Chris

[Ryder]

I can't say they aren't Christian anymore. The last time I checked I'm not the Eternal Judge who knoweth the hearts of men. All I'm saying is that I believe it's a pretty bad sin and ergo I don't think it reflects well on a Christian to be a homosexual (whether they think it's wrong or not). But yeah Kern, you're right, I can't say that's the definning sin that tells me they are unsaved or anything.       And how they think the Bible backs them up, like Homie said, is beyond me.

[kern]

The basic idea is that the verses that supposedly condemn homosexuality are condemning certain *types* of homosexual activity rather than a consensual relationship between homosexuals. The types of activity include temple prostitution, pagan ritual sex, sex with young boys (common in ancient Greece), and homosexual rape.

-Chris

[Ryder]

I STRONGLY dissagree, but again, I'm not trying to imply that I think anyone goes to hell for not taking every view precisely. I keep smoking, and I'm not sure whether it's a sin or not. Someone probably thinks that's really bad! At the same time though, I gotta say I've got this 'pit' feeling that Homosexuality is in some other ballpark of bad.... anyhow, lunch time.

[dignitized]

IS a church which allows homosexuality any worse than a Church which allows for abortion? Or divorce for any reason? or for racism? Or a church which teaches that God is vengeful and spiteful? Or even a church which teaches that they alone have the true revelation of God?

I think this issue gets the forefront because it offends the sensibilities of some people in the same way drinking alcohol offended the sensibilities of the puritans. Yes the Bible says that homosexual sex is wrong. The bible also says that murder is wrong and we have people in churches who say they are Christians who see no problem with abortion. There are churches which teach racism is biblical - churches which teach and allow their members to divorce at whim. The answer is not to shout condemnation at these people, but to correct them in love and charity with GENTLENESS lest we fall into the same trap. (10 points to any who know the scripture verse that is from ;) )

God bless

[his-girl]

Originally posted by Br. Max
IS a church which allows homosexuality any worse than a Church which allows for abortion? Or divorce for any reason? or for racism? Or a church which teaches that God is vengeful and spiteful? Or even a church which teaches that they alone have the true revelation of God?

I think this issue gets the forefront because it offends the sensibilities of some people in the same way drinking alcohol offended the sensibilities of the puritans. Yes the Bible says that homosexual sex is wrong. The bible also says that murder is wrong and we have people in churches who say they are Christians who see no problem with abortion. There are churches which teach racism is biblical - churches which teach and allow their members to divorce at whim. The answer is not to shout condemnation at these people, but to correct them in love and charity with GENTLENESS lest we fall into the same trap. (10 points to any who know the scripture verse that is from ;) )

God bless

Br. Max,

I have to agree with you. :)

I know.....hang onto your monitor so you don't fall out of your chair. ;)

[kern]

And that's what I mainly have a problem with -- not so much that people consider homosexuality a sin, but that they seem to consider it a much worse sin than others.

I have seen people say that homosexuality is the most disgusting sin to God, or that homosexuals should not be allowed in churches, etc. It just seems that people are often much less forgiving and tolerant of homosexuality than other sins.

-Chris

[Blade]

Originally posted by Br. Max
IS a church which allows homosexuality any worse than a Church which allows for abortion? Or divorce for any reason? or for racism? Or a church which teaches that God is vengeful and spiteful? Or even a church which teaches that they alone have the true revelation of God?

I think this issue gets the forefront because it offends the sensibilities of some people in the same way drinking alcohol offended the sensibilities of the puritans. Yes the Bible says that homosexual sex is wrong. The bible also says that murder is wrong and we have people in churches who say they are Christians who see no problem with abortion. There are churches which teach racism is biblical - churches which teach and allow their members to divorce at whim. The answer is not to shout condemnation at these people, but to correct them in love and charity with GENTLENESS lest we fall into the same trap. (10 points to any who know the scripture verse that is from ;) )

God bless

I agree with ya to a point. Just because I THINK homosexuality is a sin, or abortion is a sin or not. Does that mean I have sinned? Sin will not enter heaven. We cannot serve 2 masters. Its impossible according to Gods word. We cannot live in sin and say we are a christian. Now to live in sin is knowing what your doing is a sin and saying I don't want to stop it yet. Thats a warm Christian if you want to be called a Christian. God will spit us right out of his mouth. Now I think sin is sin no matter how big or small. And if I had a church and a homosexaul wanted to join I would say sure. But I would tell them if the do not change, repent you will not be saved. We can not give in to sin. We cannot think that a God who hates, wont even look at it is gona say, dont worry about it your still saved. If you love me you will keep ALL my comandments. If we sin then we confess it, repent, turn away and do our best not to repeat it. Now yes we all sin but we all know there's a diff between, "oh God help me stop and change this I am so sorry" as to "I don't care I don't believe it's a sin so I don't have to change"

I do agree that it is so sad that believers tend to put it on the "top ten list".  Just look at these forums, people keep bringing it up.

[dignitized]

blade: you are quite correct - sin cannot enter heaven. SO what happens to a believer who dies with unrepentant sin? :)

Will not be saved? Are you saying that born again and saved are not the same thing? are you sure you are a protestant? ;)

[Homie]

Br.Max
The bible also says that murder is wrong and we have people in churches who say they are Christians who see no problem with abortion
And they are wrong as well! I know christians who do not think abortion or gay sex is sin, they are called (by Americans) liberals. A typical trait of christian liberals is that being politically correct and "getting with the times" is more importent than the Bible. Although they may not have realized it, God has 2nd place to popular opinion.

[seebs]

Originally posted by Homie
And they are wrong as well! I know christians who do not think abortion or gay sex is sin, they are called (by Americans) liberals. A typical trait of christian liberals is that being politically correct and "getting with the times" is more importent than the Bible. Although they may not have realized it, God has 2nd place to popular opinion.

Ahh, yes, and a typical trait of conservatives is longing for the good old days of keeping slaves and whupping 'em for sport.

Or maybe insulting stereotypes are rude and inaccurate at best?

The liberals I know are trying to follow Christ's example, not man's. Christ spent His life being accused of false teaching for being kind to sinners, and breaking people's interpretation of God's law.

[MizDoulos]

To all:&nbsp&nbspPlease be respectful in responding to other member's viewpoints. Don't let the discussion deteriorate into personal attacks.

Thank you.

[kern]

Originally posted by Homie
And they are wrong as well! I know christians who do not think abortion or gay sex is sin, they are called (by Americans) liberals. A typical trait of christian liberals is that being politically correct and "getting with the times" is more importent than the Bible. Although they may not have realized it, God has 2nd place to popular opinion.

Isn't it possible that these "liberals" read the same Bible you do, place as much importance on it as you do, but just come to different conclusions about what it says?

I guess you're right and they're wrong -- silly me, I should have remembered that the conservative Christians have the monopoly on interpreting the Bible.

-Chris

[Homie]

seebs
Ahh, yes, and a typical trait of conservatives is longing for the good old days of keeping slaves and whupping 'em for sport.
Really mature, I was actually being serious.

kern
Isn't it possible that these "liberals" read the same Bible you do, place as much importance on it as you do, but just come to different conclusions about what it says?
Maybe for some that is true, but I see people that come to their own conclusions and write off what they do not like (thus not interptreting it differently), especially in the OT.

I guess you're right and they're wrong -- silly me, I should have remembered that the conservative Christians have the monopoly on interpreting the Bible.
Interpretation is only needed when the scriptures are figurative or symbolic, otherwise it is plain forward. Of course I believe I am right when I argue for something in a discussion, don't you? I would be stupid to argue for or against something (e.g. abortion) if I believed I was wrong, that would be really stupid.

Regarding your sarcastic tone, I will ignore it. After all, you are liberals and it is expected of you. (We discussed if leftists/liberals were in general mean-spirited, in another forum)

[kern]

Originally posted by Homie

Interpretation is only needed when the scriptures are figurative or symbolic, otherwise it is plain forward.

This is far from the truth. Culture and context are applicable regardless.

An example of this is when Jesus is given wine mixed with myrrh to drink, and rejects it. This scene does not mean much unless you know that those condemned to crucifixion were given wine + myrrh as a narcotic to ease their pain. Jesus, "after tasting it", rejects it, thus choosing to bear the full weight of the pain himself.

This is why Biblical interpretation and cultural studies are necessary -- even passages that may seem clear as day may be misread if the cultural context is misunderstood.

-Chris

[Homie]

kern
This is far from the truth. Culture and context are applicable regardless.

An example of this is when Jesus is given wine mixed with myrrh to drink, and rejects it. This scene does not mean much unless you know that those condemned to crucifixion were given wine + myrrh as a narcotic to ease their pain. Jesus, "after tasting it", rejects it, thus choosing to bear the full weight of the pain himself.

This is why Biblical interpretation and cultural studies are necessary -- even passages that may seem clear as day may be misread if the cultural context is misunderstood.
When you read the verse about Jesus he rejects the wine+myrra, plain and simple. Although you would get more out of it, if you knew that it was a narcotic, it still means the same: That Jesus was offered the wine+myrra and rejected it. When you add the extra knowledge (as you did) you are not interpreting it in a different way.

Different interpretations means that different meanings/messages are extracted from the same verse(s). Give me such an example, and where the scripture is not symbolic or figurative (like e.g. Jesus' parables)

[Job_38]

Originally posted by seebs
Ahh, yes, and a typical trait of conservatives is longing for the good old days of keeping slaves and whupping 'em for sport.

Or maybe insulting stereotypes are rude and inaccurate at best?

The liberals I know are trying to follow Christ's example, not man's. Christ spent His life being accused of false teaching for being kind to sinners, and breaking people's interpretation of God's law.

 

 You do know it was the Democrats that were the ones who were for slavory right? And that the Republican party was formed AGAINST it?

[seebs]

Originally posted by Job_38
You do know it was the Democrats that were the ones who were for slavory right? And that the Republican party was formed AGAINST it?

I know no such thing; politics is much more complicated than that.

I can say with certainty that the Southern Baptists split from the Northern Baptists over slavery, because that's the primary thing listed in the documentation of the time.

Seriously, read up on the religious response to slavery in America; everything you see about people who accept homosexuals was used against people who opposed slavery.

[seebs]

Originally posted by Homie
Really mature, I was actually being serious.


And your insulting generalization was every bit as wrong as my comment. The only difference is, I was using irony, to try to show a point, and you actually believe hateful lies.

[dignitized]

okay . .. anyhow - does Christ tell us to build a church around excluding people or around accepting people? I have to think that if Christ came today he would be hanging out with hookers and gays, just like he did in the "old days." Christ never judged nor condemned any SINNER for their sins. He edified and lifted them out of their sins through LOVE! :) The only time He spoke against some one was when he was speaking to those who were "righteous." . . . At least in their own eyes.

[fragmentsofdreams]

Originally posted by Homie
When you read the verse about Jesus he rejects the wine+myrra, plain and simple. Although you would get more out of it, if you knew that it was a narcotic, it still means the same: That Jesus was offered the wine+myrra and rejected it. When you add the extra knowledge (as you did) you are not interpreting it in a different way.

Different interpretations means that different meanings/messages are extracted from the same verse(s). Give me such an example, and where the scripture is not symbolic or figurative (like e.g. Jesus' parables)

The reason culture and context are important is that someone seeing Jesus reject wine could jump to the conclusion that alcohol is evil. With culture and context added to our interpretation, we can see how naive our first conclusion was.

[Texas Lynn]

Originally posted by Homie
preaching that homosexuality is ok and not a sin = false teaching. 

This is how you interpret God's intentions;  others do so differently.  it is not your place to judge them.

[Texas Lynn]

Originally posted by Andrew
if there's nothing wrong with what they are doing, then paedophiles might as well set up their own churches too, invite their own kind and preach that what they are doing is natural, ok and not a sin --- and give Christianity a bad name.

I'd say certain Catholic priests are already doing that, but that would be an improper hateful comment.  Of course most Catholics are shocked and dismayed at the pedophile priests scandals.  So are most gays/lesbians upon learning some of their number do this.  Most sexual abuse is of girls by heterosexual men, but that does not mean heterosexual men as a whole are evil.

Your blatant attempt to paint a group of harmless souls based on bad actions of a few is reprehensible.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Originally posted by Br. Max
Can a person be a believing confessing Christian and a homosexual? 

I am.

[Texas Lynn]

Originally posted by Homie
People are seriously saying that homoxeuality is not a sin and they say they can back this up with the Bible!!! I'd like to see this interpretation, flawed I'm sure but it would be interesting to see how they figure homosexuality is not a sin according to the Bible.

The web site for Cathedral of Hope www.cathedralofhope.com (http://www.cathedralofhope.com) may be a good place to start, then.

[Texas Lynn]

Originally posted by Homie
And they are wrong as well! I know christians who do not think abortion or gay sex is sin, they are called (by Americans) liberals. A typical trait of christian liberals is that being politically correct and "getting with the times" is more importent than the Bible. Although they may not have realized it, God has 2nd place to popular opinion.

Smearing ad hominiem attacks don't cut it.  Get a clue.

Religious liberals believe such is in line with the message of Christ.

While it is analytical in scope the book They Only Look Dead by E.J. Dionne dissects the current status of political liberalism;  religious liberalism's best reference book is probably Challenge of a Liberal Faith by Jack Marshall though it's somewhat dated. 

[Texas Lynn]

Originally posted by Homie
(We discussed if leftists/liberals were in general mean-spirited, in another forum)

I would appreciate if someone could direct me to that forum so i could put in my .02.  That seems an instance of the pot calling the sink black so to speak :cry: I know many individuals of various political persuasions are insensitive and we can all be at times, but it's hardly the nature of liberalism;  quite the opposite in fact.

[Homie]

TexasLynn
This is how you interpret God's intentions; others do so differently. it is not your place to judge them.
Do not put words in my mouth, I say it is a sin, but I do not say "exclude homosexuals from churches". Nor have I made any insulting or judging statement towards homosexuals, yet all of you persist on attacking me in this most unChristlike manner, why? Because I hold a different opinion than you.
Do you see any conservatives left in this thread but me? No, they all left because they saw how this thread would deteriorate, I should have seen that as well. Yet another example of how liberals "discuss". Like this one from Texas Lynn
Your blatant attempt to paint a group of harmless souls based on bad actions of a few is reprehensible.
in response to Andrews post
if there's nothing wrong with what they are doing, then paedophiles might as well set up their own churches too, invite their own kind and preach that what they are doing is natural, ok and not a sin --- and give Christianity a bad name.
You know very well that he wasn't trying to "paint a group of harmless souls based on bad actions of a few". He was advocating against gays opening their own churches were they thaught that it was not a sin. He did that by comparing to another sinful act, as did I, only that I used thieves as an example instead of pedophiles. So why do you try to cause turmoil instead of reading the posts for what they are and having a decent discussion.

Seebs, you say I believe hateful lies (regarding liberals being mean-spirited), you are wrong. Because I have not been told that, I have experienced it for myself in Real Life and on forums, and have reached that conclusion for myself. Leaving this thread now, as I see a decent discussion cannot be upheld.

[MizDoulos]

Since this discussion has deteriorated into personal attacks and disharmony, the thread has been closed.