born again

[stone]

What does this mean?

Is this what happens once you accept Y-shua as your l-rd and saviour and is baptism a part of this?

Once this is done, that persons sins are washed away, correct, or is there something else?

[Tishri1]

no anwer?:sigh:

I was hoping to hear some good ones before I give this little obscure one......oh well this cannot be a main answer though, just MO on the side...

How bout a mikvah? A mikvah cleanses you and restore you to a status of righteousness, with that status you may Korban "draw near" to ABBA.....just like that and EVEN MORE being born again cleanses you and sets you high upon the rock(Yeshua)...it's like a Mega Mikvah:wave:

[Andyman_1970]

I thought mikvah was a symbol of having performed t'shuva, that you go into the mikvah waters symbolic of the person you were before you performed t'shuva and come out as a new person.

I believe the term "born again" was a common term for Gentiles who converted to Judaism in the 1st century.......with spefic reference to mikvah and coming out of the mikvah waters.

[plum]

ooh we talked a lot about this at a bible discussion group i attend. let's see..

the phrase is so often used for "born again christians" that the actualy meaning of "born again" seems obscured by years of buzzword theology.

allow me to quote John chapter 3 where the reference first appears in the Gospels..

John 3:1-21 1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him." 3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." 4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" 5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." 9 "How can this be?" Nicodemus asked. 10 "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

and also....
1 Peter 1
20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God. 22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

more thoughts to come later. for now, i just wanted to quote the passages

[Tishri1]

in regards to my post, YES the mikvah was an outcome of being born again an outward manifistation of an inward occurance I guess you can say....thats why I said my idea was a little one, not the main one.....

so the picture of being born again is seen in the mikvah waters....hence stone's question still needs an answer:wave:

[visionary]

Born again... My "born again" experience was from teh encounter with the Lord, and the revelation that His world is real. No more to live in the carnal world in which I was born in, I now know and experience the Word living in the world I live in.

My mind is transformed, my heart is changed, and now my life has purpose and meaning that can not be seen by this world but is known by my Lord and Savior in truth. I received the eye salve that I may see, the ears that hear and the wisdom of understanding the behind the scenes of the spiritual conflict that is going on.

I am no longer lost and confused like I was before. I have an "inside" friend who counsels me on my life's journey. I know Him as Yeshua who sends His Holy Spirit to guide and direct my life.

While many wrestle scripture to their own folly, I praise the Lord and humbly acknowledge it is all true. I may not understand it all but there is a peace that passes all understanding, and I have learned patience, tolerance and longsuffering. I know that I have a long way to go but there is a destiny, my promised land with a new Kingdom coming and I pray soon Lord, come Soon.

[plum]

thoughts at random...

bring born again is a spiritual birth so that we may start our lives as babes within the spiritual realm. we live two lives: one physical and one spiritual. they dance within and beside one another (as our physical observances and actions have spiritual ramifications and vice-versa). One life begins at physical birth. the other begins at spiritual birth. the body dies away and becomes dust. the spirit can also die if it is not born anew. but if it is born again, it will live on in eternity.

[Andyman_1970]

I'm curious where the concept of having "two lives" is in 1st century Judaism...........

[MattyJames]

It can be an complex issue. The more I look into it, we are born again through the word of God. Not sure how it all works in, but I have seen this theme over again throughout the Brit Hadasha.

The word of God is Spirit, and it is the Seed. Both which are refered to as being needful to be 'Born again'.

I will look into it a bit, see if my rambling is just non-sence. :)

Not a bad topic to discuss, thanks Stone! :wave:

regards,

Matt James

[stone]

this spiritual birth, this is done at baptism with water then correct?

I'm going to start with John the Baptist:

Matthew 3:7-12 7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.


***

10 sounds like the olive tree and that the axe being laid at it is the message that some are about to be cut out of the seed of Abraham. 7 mentions Saduccees and pharisees, i recall that Y-shua says to do as they say and not as they do, from what i've learned here is that they were guilty of giveing the manmade laws created to protect the law more authority than the actual torah itself and the parts of it to be accepting to their neigbors and to not make torah such a stumbling block.


11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:


***

This sounds like, at the time these were baptised with water that they were repenting of their sins.

Then he speaks of Y-shua comeing to baptise also with his spirit.

It also says " and " with fire? not " or " with fire. any ideas here?



12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.



***

This looks to clarify 11 that the fire is for the tares, and in the context of the parable of the sower this is clear.

SO

baptism is part of this repenting of sins and being born again in the spirit, since it is now done in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit... ???

[Tishri1]

John 2:25 - 3:36 NAS John 3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2 this man came to Him by night, and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." 9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?" 10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not understand these things? 11 "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak that which we know, and bear witness of that which we have seen; and you do not receive our witness. 12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how shall you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 "And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man. 14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 that whoever believes may in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." 22 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and they were coming and were being baptized. 24 For John had not yet been thrown into prison. 25 There arose therefore a discussion on the part of John's disciples with a Jew about purification. 26 And they came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have borne witness, behold, He is baptizing, and all are coming to Him." 27 John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing, unless it has been given him from heaven. 28 "You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, 'I am not the Christ,' but, 'I have been sent before Him.' 29 "He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice. And so this joy of mine has been made full. 30 "He must increase, but I must decrease. 31 "He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32 "What He has seen and heard, of that He bears witness; and no man receives His witness. 33 "He who has received His witness has set his seal to this, that God is true. 34 "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure. 35 "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

:wave:

[Andyman_1970]

So does act of baptism, from our Hebraic/Messianic perspective actually remove our sins?

[Tishri1]

James 5:20 - 1 Peter 1:25 NAS 1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls. 10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful search and inquiry, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven-- things into which angels long to look. 13 Therefore, gird your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, 15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; 16 because it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." 17 And if you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each man's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay upon earth; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. 20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you 21 who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. 22 Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, 23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and abiding word of God. 24 For, "All flesh is like grass, And all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, And the flower falls off, 25 But the word of the Lord abides forever." And this is the word which was preached to you.

[stone]

So does act of baptism, from our Hebraic/Messianic perspective actually remove our sins?

This is what i'm trying to figure out.

I was meditateing, or thinking about some things that i had been reading over here. I was thinking about, why does Y-hsua say that your sins are forgiven, but then he follows up by saying to not sin again...

What happens to all those sins? so many things had been done that are not good...

This is when i heard, "those are dead sins"

dead sins..???

What about the ones that occur afterwards?

I'm guessing that from what i have seen with my own eyes that there are far more people that have been baptised and are not practiceing christians. That means there are far more people that claim to be christian that do not attend church regularly and live sinful lives.

I see that christians are adding sins after they have been baptised and probably baptised long long ago. Don't mistake what i've said as being judgemental, i am not, i am stateing a simple observation of the majority of the population of people that live here in the U.S. Some of them are just downright sinful lives, but then they do not make the claim to be christian at all either.


I'm thinking that this is the judgement. If you are a christian, baptised in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit, and your sins are washed away with the blood of the messiah and are at that moment dead sins, and that christian down the road fornicates, kills covets or uses the l-rds name in vain, something like that, then you are adding sins to your judgement..??

Now, what about repenting?

[plum]

I'm curious where the concept of having "two lives" is in 1st century Judaism...........
my post was stream of consciousness in case it wasn't clear. i am not teaching doctrine there so you dont have to worry about that.

[plum]

So does act of baptism, from our Hebraic/Messianic perspective actually remove our sins?
if it did, why the sacrifice for sins?

[Tishri1]

I think the baptism is the picture of what is happening to us and our sins...we cant see the work ABBA does to make us new...so we perform the Mikvah to minister to our own eyes, to our own ears and all our flesh the miracle we cannot see...we need that picture to remind us that we are free from sin, we are new creatures, we did it! Hasatan tries to trick us into thinking that was some abstract spiritual thing that didnt really happen...but it did and we have witnesses:wave:


The Baptism has ABBA's stamp of approval on it as wellMatthew 3:16 - 4:1 16 And after being baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon Him, 17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."

[IbanezUser]

Well if I can let me give you the full story. When Adam sinned agianst G-d by eating the forbidden fruit, by doing this he sinned agianst God and his Spirit became dead to G-d. G-d can't dwell in Adam because there is sin in him thats how his spirit became dead to G-d.

G-d is now seperated from Adam and then G-d say's he will send the messiah who will crush the head of the serpant (the devil).

Thats one of the reasons that Yeshua the Messiah came so that our Spirits can be alive to G-d. Living with him and he dwells in us and we dwell in him the way it was in creation before Adam got thrown out.

So by reciving Yeshua as lord and saviour our Spirit now becomes Born Agian and now G-d can dwell in us and we in him. And then when Yeshua the Messiah comes back he sets up his kingdom forever and ever and ever.

G-d Bless everyone and I hoped I helped you out by answering this question. Also make sure to cheak out www.wayofthemaster.com (http://www.christianforums.com/www.wayofthemaster.com) or www.needG-D.com (http://www.needG-D.com) (you know what to really type on that last site) make sure to cheak out these websites later when you got some time.

Thanks alot and G-d bless you, Shalom.
Thanks alot.

[MattyJames]

Question Ibanezuser,

Was Moses born again?

Regards,

Matt James

[IbanezUser]

Very Good question but I will try to ask that the best I can. Jeshua the Messiah said that many people whould have loved to see his days and they saw it. When Abraham went to sacrificed his son,

and as they went up the mountian his son asked where will they get the offering and Abraham said according to the promise "G-d will provide himself a Lamb". And then after G-d told him not to sacrifice his son,

then Abraham looked and saw a Ram and they he saw a Vision of the Messiah Yeshua. After doing research on this part of the Torah, John Hagge found this out. Cheak him out at www.jhm.org (http://www.jhm.org)

Now Moses said that G-d whould will raise up a Prophet like unto him which is Yeshua. Because Moses was the only way that the Isrealites were able to talk and communicate with God.

So the Messiah Yeshua will be the only way that we can know G-d as Yeshua said that you must first go through him to get to the Father. So moses did know about the Messiah,

be how can you be Born Agian when the Messiah has not come yet? He wasn't but like Rightuouss he was under, and waiting for the Promise according to

Hebrews 11. Also Moses and another prophet meet Yeshua in a Vision in Matthew 14,Mark 9, and Luke 9. Cheak them out later when you got some time if you want you can read about that Vision in those chapters.

And one Note Yeshua Messiah said that he is like the Bronze serpant that Moses lifted up and in the time when Moses lifted up the bronze serpant, he said if you look upon the serpant you will be healed,

most people didn't believe in what Moses said and didn't look. So what Yeshua Messiah is saying is that if you follow him you will be saved and healed.

But only by the shedding of blood is the forgiveness of sins so by repenting and trusting in the Messiah, Yeshua we are being Born Agian into G-d's family.

And can be healed of our sin as of those who were healed of there sickness when they looked upon the Bronze Serpant that Moses lifted up.

I hoped I answered your question and G-d bless everyone here. Thanks alot.

[Bon]

This is what i'm trying to figure out.

I was meditateing, or thinking about some things that i had been reading over here. I was thinking about, why does Y-hsua say that your sins are forgiven, but then he follows up by saying to not sin again...

What happens to all those sins? so many things had been done that are not good...

This is when i heard, "those are dead sins"

dead sins..???

What about the ones that occur afterwards?

I'm guessing that from what i have seen with my own eyes that there are far more people that have been baptised and are not practiceing christians. That means there are far more people that claim to be christian that do not attend church regularly and live sinful lives.

I see that christians are adding sins after they have been baptised and probably baptised long long ago. Don't mistake what i've said as being judgemental, i am not, i am stateing a simple observation of the majority of the population of people that live here in the U.S. Some of them are just downright sinful lives, but then they do not make the claim to be christian at all either.


I'm thinking that this is the judgement. If you are a christian, baptised in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit, and your sins are washed away with the blood of the messiah and are at that moment dead sins, and that christian down the road fornicates, kills covets or uses the l-rds name in vain, something like that, then you are adding sins to your judgement..??

Now, what about repenting?

Baptised with physical water, is an outward act....symbolic of washing away our sins through Yahshua, the Living Water.

To think that a physical baptism of water will wash away our sins, enabling us to walk away and do nothing different in our lives than we did prior to baptism is a foolish idea, and falsely believed by many Christians.

After being born again in the Spirit we should strive to live according to the Will of YHWH.

Without a doubt each and every one of us will continue to commit sins however small and insignificant they might seem to us....but God knows our hearts and our intentions. He knows if we have truly repented and if our continued efforts are truly genuine.

[Steve Petersen]

Subject: Beyond-Pshat - Parshas Haazinu (2) - Are We the Role Model to the
From: "Rabbi Yosef Kalatsky" <kalatsky@torah.org>
Date: Fri, September 13, 2002 8:53 am
To: beyond-pshat@torah.org

Teshuvah?

The Torah states in the beginning of Sefer Bereishis, "Bereishis bara Elokeem es ha'shamaiyim v'es ha'aretz: v'ha'aretz hoysa tohu v'vohu v'choshech al panei tahom v'ruach Elokeem merachefes al panei ha'maiyim
- In the beginning of G-d's creating the heavens and the earth - when the earth was empty, with darkness upon the surface of the deep, and the Divine Presence hovered upon the surface of the waters." The Midrash explains that each of the words in this opening verse of the Torah alludes to events that will take place in the future. Meaning, when G-d created existence, He preordained that certain events will happen.

The Midrash explains that "v'ha'aretz hoysa tohu - earth was empty," refers to the Babylonian exile. "Choshech - darkness," refers to the Greek exile; as the Talmud tells us, "they blackened our eyes with their decrees." "Al panei tahom- surface of the deep" alludes to the Roman exile, which is seemingly as endless as the "deep" source of water. (We are still experiencing the Roman exile after more than 2,000 years.) "V'ruach Elokeem merachefes al panei ha'maiyim - the Divine Presence hovered upon the surface of the waters" is ascribed to the spirit of Moshiach who will come only in the merit of teshuvah (repentance) which is compared to water (maiyim). As it is stated in Eicha, "Your heart should gush forth water when you stand before Hashem." Rambam states in Hilchos Teshuvah (The Laws of Teshuvah) that the confession that one makes during teshuvah must be in the presence of Hashem.

The question is what relevance does teshuvah have to water? Why is the statement "hovered upon the surface of the waters" an allusion to teshuvah?

Rambam states that if one attempts to do teshuvah but does not totally sever himself from his sinful past, then his teshuvah process is equivalent to immersing in a mikva (ritual pool) for the sake of purification, while still holding on to a rodent, which is the source of his spiritual contamination. Rambam is comparing the teshuvah process to the mikva itself. However, the verse from Eicha, which is cited by the Midrash, is indicating that the water itself is not the teshuvah but rather a consequence of the teshuvah. As it says, "your heart will gush forth water."

If one is spiritually contaminated, he must immerse himself completely in a mikvah in order to achieve spiritual purity. The Halacha (law) dictates that if there is as much as one hair of his body that is not
under water, he is not purified. The desired result is only achieved when one totally dunks himself. How do we understand the purification process of the mikva?

The Maharal of Prague (in his work on Chanukah) explains that humanity exists on dry land and not under water; therefore, the latter represents non-existence. When a person immerses himself in a body of water, in essence, he enters into a state of non-being. When he emerges, he enters a state of existence and is
considered a "bria chadasha - a new being". As such, whatever contamination he had prior to the immersion, no longer applies to him.

Dovid HaMelech says in Tehillim (Psalms), "A broken and shattered heart Elokeem (G-d) will not disgrace." Rabbeinu Yona explains in his work Shaarei Teshuvah - The Gates of Repentance that the teshuvah process
only has meaning because of the Attribute of Mercy (Midas HaRachamim). However, within the context of Midas HaDin (The attribute of Justice) there is no place for teshuvah. Dovid revealed to us that if the person
is truly broken and shattered, as a result of the teshuvah process, even Elokeem (the Attribute of Justice) will not disgrace (reject) this person's teshuvah.

The Torah tells us that an earthenware vessel (after becoming contaminated) cannot be purified in a mikva. In order for it to become uncontaminated, it must be broken or shattered so it loses its function as a vessel. If it is reassembled, it is considered a new creation that
does not have relevance to the original vessel - and therefore it is pure. The same holds true for a person. If he is broken and remorseful because of his sins and does teshuvah, he is forgiven because when he
is broken he is the equivalent of the non-existent person. Therefore, after the process of teshuvah, the individual is a new person. Thus, because the sinner no longer exists, even the Attribute of Justice cannot prosecute the penitent.

We say in the tefillah of Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur that we are likened to a broken shard - "earthenware vessel". We identify with the purification process of the earthenware vessel because - "A broken heart Elokeem (G-d) will not disgrace."

We can now understand why the Midrash compares the process of teshuvah with water. Just as when one immerses into the water, entering into a non-existent state and he emerges pure, so too does one need to be
broken and remorseful to the point that one's heart gushes forth water (tears) to indicate that he is totally broken. Thus, the "water" referred to in the Torah "hovered upon the surface of the waters" is
synonymous with the broken state of man when he is in a process of teshuvah.

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[Steve Petersen]

In Jesus day, a male convert to Judaism was required to do three things: get circumcised, baptise himself in a mikvah in the presence of qualified witnesses, and bring a sacrifice to the temple.

Rabbi Yose said: 'One who has become a proselyte is like a newly born child.' Talmud, Yevamot 48b

'Born again' was a phrase that had currency in Jesus day. It meant converting to Judaism. Jesus makes it a spritual thing, a matter of the heart, not affiliation. This is what confused Nicodemus. 'How can I convert to Judaism? I am already a Jew!"

[plum]

well as we know, we have Yeshua as our sacrifice, and we must circumcize our hearts in conversion to G-d's Kingdom, and we must be born again of spirit and of water.

pretty nifty ;)

[MattyJames]

Very Good question but I will try to ask that the best I can. Jeshua the Messiah said that many people whould have loved to see his days and they saw it. When Abraham went to sacrificed his son,

and as they went up the mountian his son asked where will they get the offering and Abraham said according to the promise "G-d will provide himself a Lamb". And then after G-d told him not to sacrifice his son,

then Abraham looked and saw a Ram and they he saw a Vision of the Messiah Yeshua. After doing research on this part of the Torah, John Hagge found this out. Cheak him out at www.jhm.org (http://www.jhm.org)

Now Moses said that G-d whould will raise up a Prophet like unto him which is Yeshua. Because Moses was the only way that the Isrealites were able to talk and communicate with God.

So the Messiah Yeshua will be the only way that we can know G-d as Yeshua said that you must first go through him to get to the Father. So moses did know about the Messiah,

be how can you be Born Agian when the Messiah has not come yet? He wasn't but like Rightuouss he was under, and waiting for the Promise according to

Hebrews 11. Also Moses and another prophet meet Yeshua in a Vision in Matthew 14,Mark 9, and Luke 9. Cheak them out later when you got some time if you want you can read about that Vision in those chapters.

And one Note Yeshua Messiah said that he is like the Bronze serpant that Moses lifted up and in the time when Moses lifted up the bronze serpant, he said if you look upon the serpant you will be healed,

most people didn't believe in what Moses said and didn't look. So what Yeshua Messiah is saying is that if you follow him you will be saved and healed.

But only by the shedding of blood is the forgiveness of sins so by repenting and trusting in the Messiah, Yeshua we are being Born Agian into G-d's family.

And can be healed of our sin as of those who were healed of there sickness when they looked upon the Bronze Serpant that Moses lifted up.

I hoped I answered your question and G-d bless everyone here. Thanks alot.

So...was Moses born again then?

:)

Matt James