Do most Messianics believe Jesus is God?

[katallasso]

I have run across a few Messianic Christians who do not believe Jesus is God. Would you all say that is the view of most or just a few Messianic Christians?

[plum]

those who do not believe Yeshua/Jesus as G-d usually choose the menorah religious icon on this site, btw.

and those who wear the scroll on this forum affirm that Yeshua was G-d.

so it is a view of some, but not all.

[katallasso]

those who do not believe Yeshua/Jesus as G-d usually choose the menorah religious icon on this site, btw.

and those who wear the scroll on this forum affirm that Yeshua was G-d.

so it is a view of some, but not all.
Thanks eirene,

If He's not God, who do they believe He is?

kat

[Tea]

those who do not believe Yeshua/Jesus as G-d usually choose the menorah religious icon on this site, btw.




mmm I have to say, that I didn't know this. I thought that for most of those that chose the menorah as their icon, questioned the deity of the Holy Spirit, not the deity of the Messiah?

Could someone who carries the menorah icon, please comment on the above statement, as this is the first time that I have heard/come across this opinion.

Tracey

[MattyJames]

If they don't believe Yeshua is God, then what are they calling themselves as Messianic for?? I say its false advertising.

JMO.

MJ

[plum]

mmm I have to say, that I didn't know this. I thought that for most of those that chose the menorah as their icon, questioned the deity of the Holy Spirit, not the deity of the Messiah?

Could someone who carries the menorah icon, please comment on the above statement, as this is the first time that I have heard/come across this opinion.

Tracey
I think I need to at least try to clarify since Menorah messianics can't respond in this thread (they can pm you though)

well the trinitarian nature of G-d is what I believe the menorah icon is all about.
one may believe Yeshua is G-d... just not that G-d has three natures, Father, Son, and Spirit. Or they might believe a variant of that which does not fall under the definition given in the Nicene Creed.

Or they may just believe Yeshua is the Messiah, but the Messiah is not G-d.

lots of variation is out there.

[Eben Abram]

Is Jesus G-d,?

Shalom Alecheim

I have been associated with the Messianic Movement since the Early Days when Messianic AND Jesus Freak, People were all one big happy family getting overwhelmed by the holy spirit Ruach ha Kodesh and reviving Christendom that some forgot was on the way out as far as Time magazine declared when many Theologians around the World wrote: God is Dead.

(Laughing) Surprise!!! Lamb, Wing and Prayer, Sweet Comfort Band, Jews For Jesus, Chosen People Ministry all exploded into a revival no one now wants to admit how bad "religion" had become.

Those of us who recorded and lived the up and downs and even false teachers, preachers, doctrines of those days, aren't afraid of the Truth of how We all didn't really seem to know what to do or how to do it.

Such was the Messinic Jew.

Later ethnicity and seeking roots as well as an explantion of how Christendom and many denominations had gone off.....led many to "counter-culture" anything Christ for Messiah and later sadly many excuted the same mistakes my Fathers made in Catholocism and Judaism by making Hierarchal Dogmas the "Way" to go.

Like here making a Believer Chose and icon he might not want.....

A scroll is good, but a Menorah is Messianic and certainly Jesus while a Mezzuzah would almost certainly be a Jew, it does not always follow those who Know Y'shua.

Crosses of course became a bane as many wanted to "prove" thier authenticity to thier Roots by fighting anti-semitism even to the extreme.......thus came the "Super-Jews" who fought to be more Jewish than any Jew would dream being and frankly even Messiah would wonder....

SOOOOOOooooo

Do ALL Messianic's Today beleive in the S-n of G-d as G-d and One with the Father and the Spirit?

All, no, Most? yes.

You cannot be Christlike without a Christ thus a Western Culture word that we use to determine a relationship of Man to God the Father, G-d of Abrahm Issaac and Jacob, does every Jewish Beleiver "KNOW" the same Lord in the same way......Mostly.

Just like a child who learns, we all learn there is more we SHALL YET SEE IN HEAVEN AND KNOW than we really understand here on Earth.

On this board, I am sure there are contentions and challenges that the Moderators have worked the best solutions they know How as to open up dialogue amoung all faiths and beleifs, as well as provide forum for those who are not necessarily western culture bound and know a Eastern Format as well as a Western idiom.

Saul/Paul was in fact as hated as loved and rejected as accepted in his day as some try to day. But he Knew his people and He knew the Gentile and He saw G-d , after which he could be rejected by even Nero and Still declare the Jesus, Y'shua, to Jew and Gentile equally becoming all things to all men lest by any means they might be saved.

I know how he felt, I do the same, often with many of the same results.

Alecheim Shalom

Eben Abram

[AbiYah]

I know maybe two people who are Messianic but do not believe Y'shua is G-tt. They believe he is Messiah, but adhere more to da rabbinic ideal that the Messiah is just a "great man" who the spirit of G-tt rests on mighty - like David or Joshua.

I do not understand the logic, but I met people that way.

Some I met do not believe in the Holy Spirit as a person, but just the breath of G-tt.

But I only see a handful of them.

[Athaliamum]

I'll have to put in a correction here. Not all those with a menorah don't believe he was G-d. In fact many of them do, they just don't subscribe to this sites particular idea of how he is G-d eg. trinity. So therefore have not agreed with the Niece Creed's explaination which this site is run by in order to call oneself christian and be able to post openly.

To them G-d can not be seperated into three persons - he is fully one. So Yahshua is not a person of one G-d but is the one G-d. If that makes sense.

[ruthrush]

I'll have to put in a correction here. Not all those with a menorah don't believe he was G-d. In fact many of them do, they just don't subscribe to this sites particular idea of how he is G-d eg. trinity. So therefore have not agreed with the Niece Creed's explaination which this site is run by in order to call oneself christian and be able to post openly.

To them G-d can not be seperated into three persons - he is fully one. So Yahshua is not a person of one G-d but is the one G-d. If that makes sense.
Hi,
I'm confused.
What is the definition of "person" that does not fit under the "One God" concept?
In the Beginning, God.
God has chosen to manifest Himself in three ways that have been given personification, (use of the pronoun He). That personification must include the Father as a Spiritual being. But it doesn't include God's manifestations in a bush or an angel.
Yeshua said He was coming back to descend on Mt.Zion (Matt.24) but YHVH says He is coming onto Mt. Zion (Zech.14).
Our definition of the oneness of God and the 3 persons of God, must be able to include this appearance.
Ruth

[HadassahSukkot]

Ruth, I suppose a good way to put it is like unto this:

Jhn 10:30 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn010.html#30) I and [my] Father are one.

Jhn 17:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn017.html#21) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Jhn 14:6 Yeshua saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Jhn 14:7 ¶ If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Jhn 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jhn 14:9 Yeshua saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?
Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Jhn 14:11 Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Jhn 14:12 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Jhn 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Jhn 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it].
Jhn 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.


There's no seperation into three distincts, but a union in which G-d manifests Himself to us... of which He uses different modes, such as the three guests that Avraham and Sarah entertained while two of them went to Sodom to save Lot and his daughters and wife... and to destroy it, Gemorrah and Zeboiim and Adamah...

While we have Melkizedek... and still yet the Ruach Hakodesh (Holy Spirit) and Y'shua... and yet the Father..

They're all together as one (Echad) - a union of one, kind of like we're told of a husband and wife.

Thus far the best example I've ever heard is that our world is similar to that of a fish tank, we can't understand how it is our maker and caregiver manifests because he is so big and vast and our minds so small, we can only fathom what we are shown in the here and now. But, in the end, we will understand everything and all theological debates will be put at rest. :)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we will understand when we get there, for now we should grasp at least what Scripture affords us to grasp - - and realize we aren't going to a heaven like unto the Mormon model where three god-beings will judge us and fellowship with us.

Know what i mean?

[HadassahSukkot]

I've struggled with that question myself.

I know one person at my congregation that believes this way, and I know she is very well meaning, but I am unsure of her understanding. She also believes that the Gospels and Apostolic writings aren't "Inspired".

I haven't seen her lately or really had a chance to sit down with her since finding out that fact about a year ago. She's been going through school and just opened a new business and busy resting on Shabbat for me to actually talk with her about it.

[Eben Abram]

Shalom Alecheim

Beleiving Jesus is G-d.....(Smile)

History:

As recent as 2000 CE In Jerusalem there was a night I attended the Jewish Speaking service of Messianic Jews that David Stern...., now considered a authority and even then a well known writer and author and certainly spokesperson for many messianic thougts and ideology but needless to Dr Stern was in attendance.

There were Messianic Jews who attended that categorically stated Messiah was NOT G-d but still the S-n of G-d without being the normative "trinitarian" doctrine posit and many Messianic Jews from America as well as sabra refused to confront or debate the issue for fear of splitting the "ranks" of beleivers during a time when Orthodox Jews were again doing some maneuvering politically and socially against Jews who profess Messiah.

Miriam and her husband made aliyah from way back when and I cannot say all that occured but are Israeli and supported the underground missionaries from a wide variety of sources and one of the most famous ones everyone knows.

The two of them are pictured in many old publications of Messianic Dance and were early pioneers in America till going to Israel and raising all thier children there.

They often had been targeted in Israel and while I once stayed in thier home for shabbes were attacked.

But Miriams husband was a Joseph so to speak, quiet, soft spoken, great davidic dancer by the way as his wife.

He, lets name him Joseph, decided to confron the issue.

That particular Morning meeting went alittle astray as the leader of the group, the largest in Jerusalem, was challenged on the issue of the deity of Messiah and he dodged skillfully the question by answering around the question as most of us can do.

Joseph knew that people respected David Stern......David Stern had been answering lately about historical development of triniatrianism and not stating any where obvious Jesus is God to the satisfaction of the American Jews or the Non-Trinitarian Jews-Or the Torah Observant who met down the street.

Joseph came and quoted the Prophets and looked David in the Eye and said...When Messiah Steps on the Mountain Top And Returns is that Messiah Jesus?

David was slow to speak and always looked wise.....He said and verbatim stated the Prophecy.....then He said yes that is Messiah Jesus (all were speaking in English after the meeting and at this time as we were all debating as we often did after the "service"

Will you read it to me in Hebrew "Jospeh" said......

For those who do not know the Words read that YhVh would come .......and that IS the Messianic Prophecy David had just said IS Moshiach.

Everyone Shut up and sat stunned.....there were 17 people there that night......Is Y'shua YhVh? the soft spoken "joseph" seemed to whisper but in that moment I swear it felt that a thunder clap.

Dr David Stern said, It certainly looks that way to me, that's how I read it.
----------------------------------
Before that moment He said later, he had reservations and doubts but had never really expressed them and though He was certain he had read that and studied that somehow.....it was as if for the first time.

For a Jew the Issue is not Christianity, it is Was and Ever shall be....Messiah.... Jesus.....Y'shua.....the only "Man" in history to have ever claimed to be G-d and proved it.

How we as a people or as jewish or as mortal Human Minds rationalize HOW G-d can be man and be Father, S-n and Spirit is a rather humerous exercise on how ants look at Human Beings.

And you know I think the Ants know their Creator sometimes better than we think we do.......

__________

Before I posted on the ones who reject TRI-Unity TriUne Echad in Deity I wanted to share the Histroy of the Stand one forgotten Man of G-d took, confronted, and had the Chutzpah to stand for the Truth and not let others fall inot error.

I saw that man, that very humble almost inconsequential Jew and I saw Him Slay Giants and walk as a King and a Daniel in the midst and I was moved to weep all that night on the roof of the Petra Hostel which once was a famous landmark, and I chose never again to let Eben to be anything but a Stone Messiah has enscribed His Words in and On as a Living and lively one in the Make up of the People he calls his own.

May G-d bless those who still Stand......In Yerushalayim...for Him.

Eben

[Sephania]

Just a little reminder, please only Messianics answer as this OP is directed to Messianics.

Thank You! :)

[P_G]

To answer the OP what do the ones who are Messianic but I assume you mean carrying the mennorah instead of the scroll what do they beleive that is different?

As stated some simply do not see Y'shua as G-d or being one in the same as G-d but rather something else. A very great man or a great prophet or the Messiah indeed but NOT G-d.

Some are modalists or Messianic Oneness. This is a belief that Y'shua was indeed G-d and G-d incarnate but that he alone at that time was G-d. That the wholeness of the Father was imbodied by him same as the Ruach. Modalism says there is onlyone G-d who manifests himself to us in different ways at different times. And that Y'shua was one of those modes.

Nestorianists basically this says that Y'shua was a great man who was overcome by the spirit of G-d that Spirit replaced soul. Usually this is aknowleged to have happened at his Mikvah with Yochannan. And that this same spirit departed from the MAN Y'shua when he was on the cross. There are variants on this duality but this is the most common.

Others still simply deny the trinity or triune nature of the G-d head there are many reasons why and explanations why.

As well we have a handful of Sacred name folks and Two House (British Israelism) folks

Are you confused yet? I know I am and I am supposed to know something!

I can't speak for everyone but I would go on record as saying I do not think less of my brothers and sisters who choose the Mennorah and not the Scroll. These are my kin folk in the Messianic world they just have a different accent than I do.

PG

[visionary]

I am messianic and believe Yeshua is God in the flesh.