The whole Torah

[hadara]

The whole Torah contains commandments that have to do with obeying God, and commandments for punishments for those that don't obey. If one considers himself Torah observant, how do you fully obey the Torah by handing out the correct punishments for disobedience?

If the sabbath is to be honoured, and many don't honor it, why aren't we stoning the disobedient - in total obedience to the Torah?

The Torah also commands the killing of witches. Why isn't the Torah-observant community getting rid of all wiccans and spiritualists?


If we are to be fully Torah observant, we must obey God and hand out punishements.

[CovenantRay]

The whole Torah contains commandments that have to do with obeying God, and commandments for punishments for those that don't obey. If one considers himself Torah observant, how do you fully obey the Torah by handing out the correct punishments for disobedience?

If the sabbath is to be honoured, and many don't honor it, why aren't we stoning the disobedient - in total obedience to the Torah?

The Torah also commands the killing of witches. Why isn't the Torah-observant community getting rid of all wiccans and spiritualists?


If we are to be fully Torah observant, we must obey God and hand out punishements.

Dear Hadara:

As we don't live in a Theocracy, and we are to submit to those in authority over us, and to love our neighbor as ourselves, what merit would your arguments have?

Where's the fruit?

Shalom,

CovenantRay :prayer:

[Charles YTK]

The whole Torah contains commandments that have to do with obeying God, and commandments for punishments for those that don't obey. If one considers himself Torah observant, how do you fully obey the Torah by handing out the correct punishments for disobedience?

If the sabbath is to be honoured, and many don't honor it, why aren't we stoning the disobedient - in total obedience to the Torah?

The Torah also commands the killing of witches. Why isn't the Torah-observant community getting rid of all wiccans and spiritualists?


If we are to be fully Torah observant, we must obey God and hand out punishements.

There are other good ones to consider, for instance if your child speaks curses to you, you are to kill him. If your child strikes you, you are to kill them.

Look the answer really is: We are not under the Torah given to Moshe for the regulation of a nation in the wilderness or in the lands of Israel. We are not even under the Sinai covenant.

If you are Messianic as your Icon would imply, then you believe that Yeshua is the Messiah and as such you have moved from the Sinai covenant to the New Covenant which he initiated, sealed with his blood and brought into effect then on Shavuot after his resurrection. We are not under the Torah of Moshe. We are under the Torah of Yeshua, which is the Torah of the Kingdom. We are not confined to a small place in the Middle east and there is no Temple or levites to administer the temple service. We are in the New Covenant a world wide Kingdom and worship at the Tabernacle of which the one Moshe built was only a copy. We have Yeshua as our high priest, not a Levite. And our Torah is the Torah of the Kingdom. We live in a way that having been born again, we have his Torah written on our hearts and obey them from the spirit that has given us a new life through faith in Yeshua.

This is the good news! You are no longer out there on your own struggling under the burden of a religious system trying to live in a way that is pleasing to God. You are born again by the spirit into a new nature that does please God. You are now sons and daughters. The veil that separated us is gone. (Not that there was any ark in the second temple anyway) We are living by a better covenant built on BETTER PROMISES.

Have we seen the fulness of this covenant or the Kingdom? No, not yet. We are firstfruits of the covenant and the witness of what is to come at the consumation.

[visionary]

The Lord said that He will do the judging, we are not to do that any more. Romans 2:16
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. The Lord took the judgement of our fellow man by His Laws out of our hands and He is wanting us to understand that the Judgements still stand, and He will be meeting out the judgments in each case. Romans 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. We leave the judgments in His hands and quit trying to do it ourselves, for we can not fair, nor righteous, nor capable of bring justice to our judgments.

[katallasso]

Would one of you mind telling me where this scripture is?

"There are other good ones to consider, for instance if your child speaks curses to you, you are to kill him. If your child strikes you, you are to kill them."

[Charles YTK]

Would one of you mind telling me where this scripture is?

"There are other good ones to consider, for instance if your child speaks curses to you, you are to kill him. If your child strikes you, you are to kill them."


It's from the Torah of Moshe.


EX 21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

EX 21:16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

EX 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

[dignitized]

The whole Torah contains commandments that have to do with obeying God, and commandments for punishments for those that don't obey. If one considers himself Torah observant, how do you fully obey the Torah by handing out the correct punishments for disobedience?

If the sabbath is to be honoured, and many don't honor it, why aren't we stoning the disobedient - in total obedience to the Torah?

The Torah also commands the killing of witches. Why isn't the Torah-observant community getting rid of all wiccans and spiritualists?


If we are to be fully Torah observant, we must obey God and hand out punishements.

2 questions:

WHen you say Torah do you mean the whole of Scriptures? The whole of the OT? or just the Torah proper?

Second the commandments you speak of are commandments to the "state" or the nation of Israel which state do you see as being able to perform those tasks especially without the temple?

[Wags]

It's from the Torah of Moshe.


EX 21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

EX 21:16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

EX 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.


Interestingly enough scripture doesn't record that capital punishment was ever carried out for violation of these commands.

[plum]

Interestingly enough scripture doesn't record that capital punishment was ever carried out for violation of these commands.
Jewish tradition also states that this was never carried out... hmm :)

[Steve Petersen]

You as an individual have no authority to carry out the punishment anyway. The Torah give the authority to the elders and judges not to vigilantes.

[Charles YTK]

Carried out? Perhaps not. Yet it is a Torah command. But it is part of the Torah given by God to Israel through Moshe and is part of the Sinai covenant in which he takes a bunch of mostly Paganized people, who have lived under Pagan influence for 430 years, and is making a kingdom of priests out of them in order to be his witnesses in all the earth. He is teaching them righteousness and holiness and setting a standard for it that is a reflection of his own nature and will.


We are not that Israel who lived in the shadow of the Tabernacle with the column of Smoke or the pillar of fire. We do not have the Tabernacle with the Ark of the covenant in it. That covenant was broken long ago and the people taken into exile.

Today we live in the New Covenant and are subject to the New Covenant Torah of the Kingdom, which is kept through a new life born of the spirit of God with his will (Torah) written on our hearts.

We have no Levite standing between us and our God. We have only one who makes intercession for us, Yeshua the Messiah our Covenantal brother, our Covenant maker. His blood alone was mingled with that of God for our sakes.

It is just like the blood covenant between David and Johnathan. All of Johnathans children were also part of the covenant that was between the two families. And when Johnathan was killed David looked for all of his children to bring them to live with him and eat from the Kings Table. We are just like Mephibosheth. We are also just a dead Dog. But we eat at the Kings table because Yeshua our older brother entered into Covenant with God for us.

[MattyJames]

Carried out? Perhaps not. Yet it is a Torah command. But it is part of the Torah given by God to Israel through Moshe and is part of the Sinai covenant in which he takes a bunch of mostly Paganized people, who have lived under Pagan influence for 430 years, and is making a kingdom of priests out of them in order to be his witnesses in all the earth. He is teaching them righteousness and holiness and setting a standard for it that is a reflection of his own nature and will.


We are not that Israel who lived in the shadow of the Tabernacle with the column of Smoke or the pillar of fire. We do not have the Tabernacle with the Ark of the covenant in it. That covenant was broken long ago and the people taken into exile.

Today we live in the New Covenant and are subject to the New Covenant Torah of the Kingdom, which is kept through a new life born of the spirit of God with his will (Torah) written on our hearts.

We have no Levite standing between us and our God. We have only one who makes intercession for us, Yeshua the Messiah our Covenantal brother, our Covenant maker. His blood alone was mingled with that of God for our sakes.

It is just like the blood covenant between David and Johnathan. All of Johnathans children were also part of the covenant that was between the two families. And when Johnathan was killed David looked for all of his children to bring them to live with him and eat from the Kings Table. We are just like Mephibosheth. We are also just a dead Dog. But we eat at the Kings table because Yeshua our older brother entered into Covenant with God for us.

Hmmm, I don't totally agree.

I haven't the time to frame an indepth response, but I think your understanding is a bit, shallow? Sorry for any offence caused. In the end, if God said it, who are we to dispute it. Furthermore, find for me where the conditions of the New Covenant are laied out in Contractual Terms. Also, I believe the Torah states 'This Covenant is not just made with you standing here, but with thoes who are not here as well.' Can't referance it at the moment. forgive me.

Apart from the Levitical Covenant, what else has changed?

I find myself disagreeing charles.

Matt James

[Charles YTK]

Hmmm, I don't totally agree.

I haven't the time to frame an indepth response, but I think your understanding is a bit, shallow? Sorry for any offence caused. In the end, if God said it, who are we to dispute it. Furthermore, find for me where the conditions of the New Covenant are laied out in Contractual Terms. Also, I believe the Torah states 'This Covenant is not just made with you standing here, but with thoes who are not here as well.' Can't referance it at the moment. forgive me.

Apart from the Levitical Covenant, what else has changed?

I find myself disagreeing charles.

Matt James


Matty,

What part do you not agree with? Do you think you are still under the old covenant and obedient to the Torah of Moshe? Have you never read the Gospels and understood what Yeshua said? Or the letters of Paul or the book of Hebrews? Would you take this good news of liberation and salvation and toss it out so that you can keep the teachings of the Talmudic sages? I know you can never keep the biblical Torah of Moshe for that is impossible at this time. There is no temple and no Levite priesthood!

The old covenant was given on Shavuot. The New Covenant was also given on Savuot in stong Parallels. Did you receive the indwelling of the spirit by keeping Rabbinical laws, or by submitting to the Lordship of Yesha and receiving it as a gift. If nothing has changed then you have not been born again. Read the words and show me where those who were receiving the Spirit failed to have changed lives. It is impossible. You must be born again and once you are you are a new creature! You no longer try to keep a favorable status with God through the flesh and by meticulas attention to Rabbinical traitions. You are a new person with the Kingdom Torah written on your heart and therefore please God because you live by His will and he lives in you by His spirit.

Yeshua is Lord. He was Gods faithful witness. He is our salvation and redemption. Our lives are fixed on HIM, not on Hillel or Shammai. Not in traditions but in a new life.

[MattyJames]

Ahh yes the above I agree with. But lets not get Rabbinical Law mixed up with Gods Holy Law. I will not have the two confused.

As for the indwelling of the spirit, that is also another matter, IMO. The spirit is recieved out of Grace and Grace alone IMO. It is the spirit of Truth that leads us unto repentance, and it is the Grace of God that allows us to repent. For it is at that time that He takes our heart of stone, and turns it into flesh. I haven't any refernaces.

Charles, did Daniel keep the Covenant made at Sinai?

If not, then which Covenant was he under?

I've gotta go to bed now, so I will continue the discussion at a later date.

Talk soon.

Matt James

[Charles YTK]

Matty,

Daniel maintained faith in God and it appears that he separated himself from the Babylonian customs and food. He could not keep the Torah, but he was indeed under the Sinai covenant and understood from Jeremiah that the punishment for Israel would be 70 years and not a permanent event. Did Daniel have the freedom to worship God in the way he was accustomed to? No. In fact he ended up in the furnace for his faithfulnes. Was Daniel the typical Jewish man? No, he was anointed for the task he was given. Most of the Jews who were in babylon completely forgot Torah. It was re-discovered in a hiding place in te wall and read to the people, who were hearing it for the first time.

In the old Covenant is a promise of a New and yet better Covenant that would replace the one made with Moshe, not even like the old one and with a new torah not written on stone but applied to men's hearts and God's spirit dwelling in them. This has taken place. The New Testament which is the New Covenant is all about this Covenant we now live in. Yeshua said it at the seder, "take this cup and drink it for this is my blood of the New Covenant which is poured out for you all." Yeshua died to bring in this new covenant. And he took his blood and applied it to the Mercy seat which is in heaven, The Mercy seat of which Moshes was only a copy, meant to hold the place and teach the lesson until this Yeshua could fulfill the act. The Blood of Yeshua cleanses us eternally unlike that of goats under the old covenant which had to be repeated year after year because it would not and could not do the job.

If you are under the old covenant then you have refused the covenant of Yeshua and you are covered for a year if you repent and kill the goat of Atonement and apply its blood to the Altar. Where do you stand? Are you covered by the blood of a goat provided in the old covenant or are you cleansed by the blood of Yeshua the Messiah in the New Covenant. It is one or the other. You must Choose.

[Kalanit]

Alright- I'm confused.

"under the old covenant then you have refused the covenant of Yeshua"

"replace the one made with Moshe"

How is this not like replacement theology? I am so confused.

[Charles YTK]

Kalanit,

Alright- I'm confused.

"under the old covenant then you have refused the covenant of Yeshua"

"replace the one made with Moshe"

How is this not like replacement theology? I am so confused.

Replacement theology is the doctrine that says that the Gentiles have displaced and replaced the Jews in all the promises of God and in the covenants and have become the new Israel. Israel of the bible is set aside.


This is certianly not what I am saying. We are brought together with the Jewish brothers as one new man before the Lord. We are all one people who live by faith in God regardless of ethnicity. This takes place in Messiah.

Covenant and Torah are not the same thing. Covenant is the promise.
Torah is the regulation or stipulation of living in the covenant.

There is a core of Torah that is eternal. So Torah appears in each covenant in the form that was needed for those people.

Abraham had a Torah. We know because the testimony of him:

Gen 26: [5] Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws (Torot).

Did he have the Toah of Moshe? No! But he had a Torah that was God's instructions to him written on his heart. We see that in his character and the way he lived. And it has items of importance in common with all other Torot.

Moshe was given a Torah in connection with the Sinai (Mosaic) Covenant. It was for the regulation of the life of the people of Israel in the lands of Israel and has at it's center the administration of justice and a prieshood that would operate a temple system of sacrifical worship and serve as intercessors between man and God.

That covenant was broken and the Torah that applied to it set aside or more accurately "Transformed". Yeshua said that he did not come to destroy the Torah but to fulfill it! He brought it to its full meaning.

Yeshua secured the New Covenant. It also has a Torah in conection with it. But it is different in many points and yet still has some things in common with all the previous Torahs God has given. The Torah we have today is written on the heart like that of Abraham's and has a set of commands that can only be kept through a new life in the spirit. Yeshua went to great lengths to explain the difference saying things like, MT 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: [22] But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Yeshua said that he did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill. To Fulfill means to fully establish, to correctly apply, to bring to fulness. Under Torah of Moshe a man was not guilty unless he acted on his desires. In the Toah of Yeshua, a man is guilty at the spiritual level, from the heart, because that is where the Torah operates.


JER 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: [33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34] And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


It is a different covenant and it has a different Torah, a transformed Torah, one that is written on the heart and operates in the spirit. You can not keep the Torah of Moshe. It was for another time and another people with a Tabernacle, a priesthood and sacrificial services. We live in the New Covenant and our Torah regulates our life from within, and Yeshua is the high priest and his blood alone is applied to the mercy seat in our behalf.

If you think you are living under the Old Covenant then you must bring those animal sacrifices. Those were replaced in the New Covenant by the blood o Yeshua.

[stone]

What about the commandments that do not apply to the land and the temple?

In the torah it is clearly written what is and what is not food. When we say to others it is ok to have pork with your eggs or beans, then do you see this as teaching lawlessness?

[ContraMundum]

Are you all coming to the conclusion that just maybe the traditional Christian understanding of the Mosaic Covenant might be right after all? It seems that all this partitioning of the Torah and disagreement is leading to that conclusion being at least one valid interpretation of the Scriptures.

I'm enjoying the discussion. Lots of good points being made from all directions.

[Wags]

Matty,

Daniel maintained faith in God and it appears that he separated himself from the Babylonian customs and food. He could not keep the Torah, but he was indeed under the Sinai covenant and understood from Jeremiah that the punishment for Israel would be 70 years and not a permanent event. Did Daniel have the freedom to worship God in the way he was accustomed to? No. In fact he ended up in the furnace for his faithfulnes. Was Daniel the typical Jewish man? No, he was anointed for the task he was given. Most of the Jews who were in babylon completely forgot Torah. It was re-discovered in a hiding place in te wall and read to the people, who were hearing it for the first time.

In the old Covenant is a promise of a New and yet better Covenant that would replace the one made with Moshe, not even like the old one and with a new torah not written on stone but applied to men's hearts and God's spirit dwelling in them. This has taken place. The New Testament which is the New Covenant is all about this Covenant we now live in. Yeshua said it at the seder, "take this cup and drink it for this is my blood of the New Covenant which is poured out for you all." Yeshua died to bring in this new covenant. And he took his blood and applied it to the Mercy seat which is in heaven, The Mercy seat of which Moshes was only a copy, meant to hold the place and teach the lesson until this Yeshua could fulfill the act. The Blood of Yeshua cleanses us eternally unlike that of goats under the old covenant which had to be repeated year after year because it would not and could not do the job.

If you are under the old covenant then you have refused the covenant of Yeshua and you are covered for a year if you repent and kill the goat of Atonement and apply its blood to the Altar. Where do you stand? Are you covered by the blood of a goat provided in the old covenant or are you cleansed by the blood of Yeshua the Messiah in the New Covenant. It is one or the other. You must Choose.


Uh - Daniel was thrown to the lions, he wasn't one of the three hebrews that were thrown in the furnace.


Jer 31: 33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the Lord. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the Lord.

I don't believe that the New Covenant is in place yet - and the reason that I don't is that one of the conditions is that the Torah will be written on the heart and ALL will know the Lord without teaching being necessary. Since teaching is very much still necessary now, how can we be under a New Covenant? I think this prophecy will only be fullfilled in the earth made new.

[ContraMundum]

In the torah it is clearly written what is and what is not food. When we say to others it is ok to have pork with your eggs or beans, then do you see this as teaching lawlessness?Good question stone!

[Charles YTK]

Yes you are right, the lions den is what I had in mind.

The New Covenant is not fully realized yet. This is the principle of the first fruits. We are the firstfruits of that Covenant. We are a sampling of what is to come in the full harvest.

RO 8: [22] For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. [23] And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

James 1: [16] Do not err, my beloved brethren. [17] Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. [18] Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Heb 12: [24] And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.