Not Jewish? Foggeddaboudit!

[davidweimar]

:idea:

The idea that you have to be blood to be a Messianic Jew is a continuation of the exclusivistiy of Judaism. Although I am Jewish, I find it interesting that this idea that Christians should not be held to the same standards as Jews are, concerning mitzvot.

Yeshua came to incorporate those not of Jewish decent into the lineage of Abraham.

As Jesus states specifically, I've not come to abolish, but to fulfill the law and the prophets.

You can be a Messianic Jew... maybe not physically if you don't have actual blood of a Jew--However, after accepting Yeshua as your L-RD and Savior, you are "born again" into the family of G-D; which includes Abraham, Moses, and all the other prophets. You have the "spiritual blood" of a Jew. Then you are required to fulfill the laws.

:preach:

Amirite?

:amen:

[MattyJames]

I agree about 95% :wave:

I sway away from 'Jew' and rather Israelite. Considering a Jew is of the Tribe of Judah, strickly speaking, but generally speaking it incorperates Levi and Benjamin?

Apart from that. I agree wholeheartedly. Welcome friend. Do enjoy our little gathering.

regards,

Matt James

[HadassahSukkot]

Matty! Hey! Same feelings here. ;)

[visionary]

Is that not what this verse is saying...

Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

[Kalanit]

Um, I'm not ever gonna call myself a "Jew" because genetically, I'm not!

I think it's false advertising.

IMO, 'Christians' are very different from Messianics. On top of that- Gentile believers were not required to follow Torah completely!

If you get a bunch of Gentile Christians going around calling themselves "Messianic Jews" we'd have a huge mess on our hands! It would go right back to replacement theology, because there are more Gentiles than believing Jews out there.

We already have trouble with certain denominations/ groups believing they are the 'New Israel' and the 'Real' Jews...

[Kalanit]

he is a Jew, which is one inwardly;

This is not saying that a Gentile is a Jew. A Gentile is a Gentile. A Jew is a Jew. Both can worship HaShem in Spirit and Truth. Both have circumcision of the heart. Both are covered in the Blood of Messiah.

I believe the point Rav Saul is making is that it's not good enough to be culturally Jewish- or even be "religious" - A Jew must be not only Jewish outwardly- but more important- inwardly- with a circumcised heart. Because your genetics will not save you- the condition of your heart will.

[Wags]

he is a Jew, which is one inwardly;

This is not saying that a Gentile is a Jew. A Gentile is a Gentile. A Jew is a Jew. Both can worship HaShem in Spirit and Truth. Both have circumcision of the heart. Both are covered in the Blood of Messiah.

I believe the point Rav Saul is making is that it's not good enough to be culturally Jewish- or even be "religious" - A Jew must be not only Jewish outwardly- but more important- inwardly- with a circumcised heart. Because your genetics will not save you- the condition of your heart will.


Exactly! :thumbsup:

[Wags]

I've said it once, I'll say it again.... One does not have to be Jewish to be a Messianic Believer. If you call yourself something that you are not then you are a lying.

If you are not a Irishman, don't say you are... if you are not ethnically Jewish don't call yourself a Jew.

[plum]

he is a Jew, which is one inwardly;

This is not saying that a Gentile is a Jew. A Gentile is a Gentile. A Jew is a Jew. Both can worship HaShem in Spirit and Truth. Both have circumcision of the heart. Both are covered in the Blood of Messiah.

I believe the point Rav Saul is making is that it's not good enough to be culturally Jewish- or even be "religious" - A Jew must be not only Jewish outwardly- but more important- inwardly- with a circumcised heart. Because your genetics will not save you- the condition of your heart will.

i agree with this when speaking of the specific term "Jew".

but that does not keep us gentiles from being adopted into the commonwealth of Israel...
when I hear that phrase I often think of the Commonwealth of Nations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations).

[Kalanit]

I've said it once, I'll say it again.... One does not have to be Jewish to be a Messianic Believer. If you call yourself something that you are not then you are a lying.

If you are not a Irishman, don't say you are... if you are not ethnically Jewish don't call yourself a Jew.

:amen: :thumbsup:

[Kalanit]

Commonwealth of Israel -sure.

Just like the Commonwealth of Nations- people from India were still Indians. People from Africa were still Africans. Their culture and identity (for the most part) remained the same.

[davidweimar]

ok, I see a little more about what was meant.

It just sounded like on one of the other forum topics that we were turning a young man away. It was misunderstood.

Though I understand that physically you may not be a Jew, I think that once you accept Yeshua, you no longer have to have the title "Gentile" because that's no longer what you are.

You spiritually become a member of the 12 tribes.

Then you are obligated to obey the laws of Moses (except sacrifice, because that's what Yeshua fulfilled).

You know what I mean?

[Kalanit]

Goyim- "people of the Nations"

My ancestors were Natives from England, Scottland, Wales, and North America. I am 100% Gentile.

I was, I am - a Gentile. A person from the Nations outside of Israel- outside of the 12 tribes of Israel- outside of the linage of Shem, Noah's son! I'm a Goy! :) And it's ok!

People who feel bad because they are Gentile must not understand how everything fits together. You must learn to be ok with who you are!

'Gentile' does not equal "Pagan" or "Evil" or "Bad"... It just means- Non-Jewish. We error when we try so very hard to not offend and compromise truth in the process.

There is a role for Jews, there is a role for non-Jews- heck- I believe every people group on earth has a specific G-d given role to play- a specific unique form of expression and culture that glorifies HaShem.
Are we spiritual offspring of Avraham? Yes- absolutely!

That in no way affects your ethnicity-

Tell me where in the Bible Gentiles are to follow all of Torah. I don't see it.

[plum]

You spiritually become a member of the 12 tribes.


that begs the question.... which tribe?

[davidweimar]

Goyim- "people of the Nations"

My ancestors were Natives from England, Scottland, Wales, and North America. I am 100% Gentile.

I was, I am - a Gentile. A person from the Nations outside of Israel- outside of the 12 tribes of Israel- outside of the linage of Shem, Noah's son! I'm a Goy! :) And it's ok!

People who feel bad because they are Gentile must not understand how everything fits together. You must learn to be ok with who you are!

'Gentile' does not equal "Pagan" or "Evil" or "Bad"... It just means- Non-Jewish. We error when we try so very hard to not offend and compromise truth in the process.

There is a role for Jews, there is a role for non-Jews- heck- I believe every people group on earth has a specific G-d given role to play- a specific unique form of expression and culture that glorifies HaShem.
Are we spiritual offspring of Avraham? Yes- absolutely!

I couldn't agree with you more.

That in no way affects your ethnicity-

That is correct, but you may still be called a Messianic Jew, just because you have become part of the lineage of Avraham.

Tell me where in the Bible Gentiles are to follow all of Torah. I don't see it.

Well, I know Peter's vision shows that eating things like pork are still out of the question, and he was a Christian, so...

It doesn't say exactly, but it does mention it in a round about way. Just like the trinity.

Acts 10:11-17 & then verse 28.

[davidweimar]

that begs the question.... which tribe?

It doesn't really matter, I don't think.

:idea:

Here's an interesting thought though...

Jews are from Yakav physically and spiritually.

Converts who become Messianic Jews are from Avraham, not necessarily Yakav, though. Therefore NOT part of the 12 tribes. I was just thinking about that... :D

[Kalanit]

Ah- well, here's the problem...

Peter wasn't a Christian! He was a Messianic Jew!

Jews are to ALWAYS keep Torah!
Gentiles are not. Gentiles are to avoid fornication, things strangled, blood, etc. But they do not have to observe Torah like the Jews do.

Now, if a Gentile wants to eat Kosher, he certainly can.
However, a JEW is NOT to break the Commands G-d gave them. He doesn't have the option of eating kosher or not. The Jew is to remain Jewish and obey what G-d told the Jews to do. (Kosher, Brit 'malah, etc)

I don't call myself a Messianic "Jew" I call myself a Messianic Believer. My husband, who is Jewish, is called a Messianic Jew- because he is Jewish.

We are part of Mesianic Judaism- which is different than Hebrew Christian.

Peter, Paul, etc were Messianic Jews

[Kalanit]

Check out acts chpt 15

Remember- the question was wether Gentile Believers should become Jewish converts- undergoing circumscision, etc. and submit themselves to the entire Torah.

The Messianic Jews did not question wether they ought to obey Torah or not- it was obvious to them- Yes! Absolutely!

[Wags]

Check out acts chpt 15

Remember- the question was wether Gentile Believers should become Jewish converts- undergoing circumscision, etc. and submit themselves to the entire Torah.

The Messianic Jews did not question wether they ought to obey Torah or not- it was obvious to them- Yes! Absolutely!


Ever wonder about this verse?

Acts 15:21 For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.

[Kalanit]

Well, I'd assume that means that most cities had synagogues for Jews... and that Torah was taught there...

(Am I getting what you are asking? or did I miss it? :) )

[Wags]

Well, I'd assume that means that most cities had synagogues for Jews... and that Torah was taught there...

(Am I getting what you are asking? or did I miss it? :) )

This is connected to what was expected of the new gentile believers... so they were expected to learn Torah. And Paul says that it is not the hearers of Torah, but the doers that are justified in G-ds sight.

[visionary]

Tell me where in the Bible Gentiles are to follow all of Torah. I don't see it.
ok what about this for circumcision
Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.or this for the feast of unleaven bread
Exodus 12:19
Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land.now put them together..Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.Did the Lord get any plainer than this Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.It is even in the Ten Commandments itself, right where the seal of God is found, where the King of Kings put His stamp of authorization. Exodus 20:10
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:You know when you take a closer look you start finding the Lord has been including the strangers who attach themselves to God all through His laws. Leviticus 16:29
And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you:in it more inclusive than most people think... we are included, whether gentile or Jew, if we follow the Laws of God we are His. Leviticus 17:8
And thou shalt say unto them, Whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers which sojourn among you, that offereth a burnt offering or sacrifice,Let's not think that this is just new testament thinking.. Leviticus 17:10
And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.So where does the idea that the laws and statutes were exclusive, other than from those who wish it were so. From God's mouth to our ear... Let us pay closer attention for God said. Leviticus 18:26
Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:Remember Love your neighbor as God loves you. Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.Let me let the Lord repeat this.. Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God.

[MattyJames]

Ever wonder about this verse?

Acts 15:21 For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.

Exactly.

And furthermore:

'One law shall be for the homeborn and the stranger among you' Ex 12:49

'One ordanince shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, and ordanince for ever in your generations: as ye are so shall the stranger be before the Lord.' Num 15:15

I am not Jewish. I was raised in a Torah abiding home, keeping the Commands as best as we could, and always esteeming the righteous ways of God, Torah. I do not want to be Jewish. I have no desire to be Jewish. But to be in the Commenwealth of Israel, that I do want to be in.

Notice the New Covenant was only made with 'the House of Israel and the house of Judah'??? If then, one is of neither house, how can he be in the Covenant?

Furthermore, when Paul asks the questions 'what is an Israelite?' what does he first answer with?? "Thoes that pertaineth to the adoption.' Rom 9:4

and another thought: Ever noticed that the twelve gates entering into the kingdom are headed with the names of the twelve tribes? If then, one is not of the 12 tribes, then which gate do they enter in by?

I am an Israelite, after the order of adoption, grafted in, and partaker of the covenant and the promises therein, if, God will, I should find myself true unto His perfect ways.

just my thoughts.

Regards,

Matt James

[davidweimar]

Ah- well, here's the problem...

Peter wasn't a Christian! He was a Messianic Jew!

Jews are to ALWAYS keep Torah!
Gentiles are not. Gentiles are to avoid fornication, things strangled, blood, etc. But they do not have to observe Torah like the Jews do.

Now, if a Gentile wants to eat Kosher, he certainly can.
However, a JEW is NOT to break the Commands G-d gave them. He doesn't have the option of eating kosher or not. The Jew is to remain Jewish and obey what G-d told the Jews to do. (Kosher, Brit 'malah, etc)

I don't call myself a Messianic "Jew" I call myself a Messianic Believer. My husband, who is Jewish, is called a Messianic Jew- because he is Jewish.

We are part of Mesianic Judaism- which is different than Hebrew Christian.

Peter, Paul, etc were Messianic Jews

Wow! Never really thought about it like that.

[Kalanit]

Visionary-

Well, there were those who lived among the Jews- within their boarders- walking with them in the desert- etc. Later on those gentiles would consider Jewish conversion- or for whatever reason, if not converted, they'd be at least considered "Righteous Gentiles".

Those were the ones who sought the G-d of Israel.

But the other group of Gentiles were just fine worshipping their false gods and living as pagans.

Now, if a gentile who was a Jewish convert became a believer, he would still be considered "Jewish" in faith and he would have already been circed.

A gentile pagan who came to faith, out of pagan practices, would not need to get circed, and become Jewish.

I agree Gentiles are to learn Torah, and act upon G-d's word. However, they are not called to be Jewish, and follow every bit of Torah that Jews are called to follow. Gentiles are not supposed to become Jewish.

Even in Zach. it shows that all Nations are to observe certain feasts and obligations that are very Jewish- however- they still keep their National Identity. It doesn't become one big world of Jews.

I believe those gentiles who are married to Jews or have been called to live as a Jew should obey that directive of G-d. But as for the entire Gentile Christian community? Sheesh. If they could just keep the Noahide laws they'd be better off. (Which, as a group, they do not.)

[Kalanit]

Matty-

I don't believe I'm from any tribe of Israel. I don't believe you have to be considered part of any tribe to gain access to HaShem or operate in the Kingdom of Heaven.

I just see it differently.

And the more I read the Brit Hadasha from a Jewish view point, the more i'm convinced that it is not as complicated as we make it out to be.

I'm still not convinced that Gentile Believers must take on all of Torah. Should they know it- yes. Should they obey the parts that pertain to them- yes. but the entirety of the Torah? No.

[yod]

Peter's vision in Acts 10 is not about keeping kosher. It is about accepting those people whom the Lord has declared "kosher" through the Holy Spirit, instead of through the Law.

In Acts 15, the Holy Spirit through the High Council of Jerusalem ruled that gentiles were not required to undergo circumcision or keep the law of Moses. They wisely decided that it was not their job to enfore the Law but that every man would be led by their conscience since the gentiles weren't "Israel" and Moses was read in congregation every week.

And just as an explanation point...The Torah was set aside for jews in the diaspora and in the captivity of Babylon also. How could anyone outside of Israel be expected to keep the laws of Israel? Only One person has ever done it in history anyway.

I agree that christian teaching has warped this so much that even the Holy Spirit has much to overcome in the way of ignorance...but it is still the realm of the Holy Spirit to convict of sin and we should leave it at that.

[Kalanit]

Good point Yod. :thumbsup:

[Tishri1]

I agree with Yod, and since it is the Ruach's job to write ABBA's words on our hearts I believe this is done according to ABBA's will and that person's will, not according to us (although my hat goes off to all the excellent teachers I have heard who are ministers of the word):)

ABBA knows that if we seek him we will find his will for us...It may be basically the same as everyone else's, but should we expect it to be exactly the same...I think that is what this verse is about....there were basic expectations, but when it comes to someone's relationship with ABBA, that is a very personal walk and ABBA knows best....

So what did he reveal to the Leaders of that day? "Get in fellowship" because every week Moses (meaning the first five books of the Bible) is read....The word is read, we hear it, and ABBA's Ruach writes it on our hearts:wave:

[Tishri1]

I have a question? Has anyone looked to see what Paul and Peter and others called the Believers? I mean what different names were they called by (Can I have Messiancs answer only please, for clarification sake)? Were they called as one group or two, were they separated from the rest of the synagogue Jews who were not Believers and called something different to identify them?...When Paul addresses them just normally (not in any debate with the Jews but just teaching them), what does he call the ones who are not Jew by blood?....does he differentiate between the two like we do?

Just Curious....

[Wags]

In Acts 15, the Holy Spirit through the High Council of Jerusalem ruled that gentiles were not required to undergo circumcision or keep the law of Moses. They wisely decided that it was not their job to enfore the Law but that every man would be led by their conscience since the gentiles weren't "Israel" and Moses was read in congregation every week.


So why even mention the torah being taught every week if the gentiles weren't suppose to learn it? And why learn it if you aren't supposed to follow it?

[Tishri1]

So why even mention the torah being taught every week if the gentiles weren't suppose to learn it? And why learn it if you aren't supposed to follow it?oh I didnt even see it that way Wags....I saw it as they are learning, and to leave them alone and let them figure it with the Ruach's help:wave:

[yod]

So why even mention the torah being taught every week if the gentiles weren't suppose to learn it? And why learn it if you aren't supposed to follow it?
Tishri gave the right perspective on what I was saying...but I'll answer your question with a question


Was a gentile expected to go up to the Temple for Passover, Shavuot, or Succot? Would they be let in if they did?

Were gentiles to be inspected for circumcision at Pesach?

Couldn't any jew of the diaspora claim a "higher" position over gentiles if Torah is the standard of righteousness?

These things were all dealt with in Romans chapters 2 & 3 (among other places)

[Sephania]

So why even mention the torah being taught every week if the gentiles weren't suppose to learn it? And why learn it if you aren't supposed to follow it?

Exactly!

But also those called the Judaizers were trying to have them circumcismed when that was not part of Yeshua's covenant. Although I think once in the family, that they should consider having their children done so as to partake of the Passover rememberance. If was unloving of those who were arguing this to want them to immediately start following everything. It's like if you Marry into a family you are immediately required to know the whole family history, and every ones names and their childrens names and their favorite things, everything about them that would naturally take years to learn by being around them. But for starting off you are introduced to them by name and hope to remember a few of them. And each time you meet with them, you learn a little more, and next time a little more........

If gentiles are expected to celebrate, Sukkot in the kingdom, don't you think they should learn about it and start rehearsing now? I think that is only fair and loving.

[Tishri1]

that reminds me of all the tears I cried when I was first married , and I couldnt stay on a budget of $40 a week for the life of me..."Coupons, coupons my mother-in-law would say...You must have a coupon for everything if you hope to have a good budget someday"

she may have been right but I was sooooooo unhappy about that...:cry:

[MattyJames]

that reminds me of all the tears I cried when I was first married , and I couldnt stay on a budget of $40 a week for the life of me..."Coupons, coupons my mother-in-law would say...You must have a coupon for everything if you hope to have a good budget someday"

she may have been right but I was sooooooo unhappy about that...:cry:

$40 BUCKS A WEEK! Heck, thats my brekky! Boy haven't times changed!

We all need reminding from time to time.

regards,

Matt James

[MattyJames]

I think I'm more in line with Zayit and Vis on this one.I think Gods standards are equal, and that He is not a respecter of persons.

One Law shall be for the stranger and the Homeborn. If that isn't clear enough, than nothing else can be.

All other issues are merly topics.

MHO,

Matt James

[insaneinthebrain]

Acts 15:13-21 (NASB)
After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, "AFTER THESE THINGS I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN, AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS, AND I WILL RESTORE IT, SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME," SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO.

Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

I've never been fond of discussing scripture that isn't quoted in the thread somewhere, so there it is. ;)

I've been reading David Stern's Jewish New Testament Commentary, and he offers several interpretations of verses 20 (but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.) and 21 (For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.)

Regarding verse 20, there are three possibilities:

1) It's a variation of the noachide laws (Practice justice, abstain from blasphemy, idolatry, adultery, bloodshed, robbery, and eating flesh torn from a live animal)

2) "From what is strangled" is missing from some early manuscripts. If this is correct, we are left with the three commandments a Jew cannot violate to preserve their own life:

Sanhedrin 74a
R. Johanan said in the name of R. Simeon b. Jehozadak: By a majority vote, it was resolved in the upper chambers of the house of Nithza in Lydda18 that in every [other] law of the Torah, if a man is commanded: "Transgress and suffer not death" he may transgress and not suffer death, excepting idolatry, incest, [which includes adultery] and murder.

(That Soncino Classics CD-ROM is one of the best investments I've made! :D)

3) These commands were primarily social so that gentiles could fellowship with Jews without offending them.

Regarding verse 21, Stern gives 6 possibilities:

1) Since there were Jews everywhere, their morals were to be respected (seems to me this interpretation only works with the third interpretation of verse 20)

2) Those pressing for circumcision shouldn't worry that allowing Gentiles in will decrease the number of Jewish believers. (I don't even understand this one!)

3) Gentiles should be "encouraged along the new path of faith" Yeshua opened.

4) Gentiles will continue going to the local synagogue and hearing what Torah says about living a godly life.

5) As Gentiles keep hearing Torah, they'll eventually convert.

6) Gentiles will keep hearing the "rules" laid out in verse 20 enough to be very conscious of them.

The more I study these two verses, the less I understand how they should be applied. All I know is they're far deeper that I've ever given them credit for.

(for copyright purposes: A lot of this was paraphrased from pages 278 & 279 of David Stern's Jewish New Testament Commentary. Copyright 1989 by David H. Stern. Published by Jewish New Testament Publications, Inc.)

[HadassahSukkot]

The thing is, the rules laid out- were the very heart and center of Torah. Do those things, and everything else will come to you quite easily.

The whole "Circumcision" thing was more than just the simple act of circumcising someone. It was a rite (still is) in which one took on ALL of the commandments at once and had to obey very strictly or face very severe consequences.

This wasn't something that was done in times past. One committed to G-d, was circumcised (The act) and THEN began taking on more of Torah as they were equipped.

It's like dressing for battle. You start slow, train with the different items and carry them about, then begin training with all the equipment in one place.

If you start out with the whole outfit and armor and dufflebag; you find yourself overwhelmed and as we said in the military "SOL"... There's no way you can carry the pack without knowledge of what it is, how it operates and who is your friend and who is your enemy, and how to march.. yadda yadda.


However, if we help people out like we would our children (as scripture says to); it isn't burdensome.

Y'shua said His Yoke was/is Easy and Light. - Torah IS easy and light, once we remove all the extra fences and all the new language contexts and just start at the beginning... So long as He is on the other side of the yoke, we'll all be OK

[ContraMundum]

I like irony.

Technically speaking, I could be called a Messianic Jew, because I'm Jewish and I've accepted that Jesus is the Messiah. But I am an Anglican. On the other hand, a Gentile friend who attends a Messianic Church is more readily accepted as "Messianic" than I am- even though I follow a Torah observant lifestyle.

:)

So many labels, so little mitzvot in the world.

BTW- I like this forum more than STR these days.

[plum]

I like irony.

Technically speaking, I could be called a Messianic Jew, because I'm Jewish and I've accepted that Jesus is the Messiah. But I am an Anglican. On the other hand, a Gentile friend who attends a Messianic Church is more readily accepted as "Messianic" than I am- even though I follow a Torah observant lifestyle.

:)

So many labels, so little mitzvot in the world.

BTW- I like this forum more than STR these days.
:hug: sometimes we are simply limited because this is online. and if we knew each other in reality, I'm sure such divisions like anglican/christian/messianic/gentile/jew... would all pass away if we lived in love and brotherhood in our journey to know G-d better and follow Him more closely.

[ContraMundum]

:hug: sometimes we are simply limited because this is online. and if we knew each other in reality, I'm sure such divisions like anglican/christian/messianic/gentile/jew... would all pass away if we lived in love and brotherhood in our journey to know G-d better and follow Him more closely.
Thanks eirene...you know, not only do I agree with you but also my experience with others from MJ groups shows this to be true. All the junk we bring into forums dissapears in person. It's easier to discuss religion with coffee and cookies.

[Tishri1]

http://www.campatterbury.com/_images/coffee_cup_cookies_book_lg_nwm.gif:amen:

[HaNotsri]

;) :thumbsup: :wave: Or tea and crumpets (Anglican poke!)

[Wags]

It is difficult at best to have long drawn out theological discussions on-line, those are best done in person.

What I find interesting is that those that uphold the Torah given by God through Moses, as relevant today are accused of refusing the Torah of Yeshua. I have always thought of them as being one in the same, since Yeshua was a supporter of the Torah. And I don't remember Him being quoted as saying - the old torah is out, here is the new deal.

[ContraMundum]

;) :thumbsup: :wave: Or tea and crumpets (Anglican poke!)
...or...in some Anglican cases, port and bikkies. ;)

[HaNotsri]

Being Irish, prefer bangers and mash myself

[Tishri1]

I have always thought of them as being one in the same, since Yeshua was a supporter of the Torah. And I don't remember Him being quoted as saying - the old torah is out, here is the new deal.Yes I agree I think it's just the way people word things and what picture it stirs up in their minds...I always see them as the same too, and where they may be different(rabbinics added) I aways refer to Yeshua's take on things:wave:

[HadassahSukkot]

*thumbs up to Tishri and Wags*

I agree... I'm so with you...

I sometimes get that at work with one of my coworkers.. Makes you want to smash your head into the nearest desk or wall a couple of times and say "how can you not see by my life I am free not enslaved? What do you really think a bondservant is? Someone who walks around doing what 'I want'?"

oy vey

Not to mention, if he did come teaching something "NEW" and calling Torah "OLD" -- He'd be disqualified from being Messiah......

[MattyJames]

Yeh I'm with you too ladies! 'In the begining is the Word, and the word was with God and the word was God.'

Yeshua and Torah are one in the same.

regards,

Matt James

[plum]

speaking of food... if anyone ever comes to the Chicago area, let's grab a bite and have a wee chat! we can get past all these darn icon problems and have a little heart-to-heart :)

[Tishri1]

speaking of food... if anyone ever comes to the Chicago area, let's grab a bite and have a wee chat! we can get past all these darn icon problems and have a little heart-to-heart :)
I'm in!

[yod]

Exactly!

But also those called the Judaizers were trying to have them circumcismed when that was not part of Yeshua's covenant. Although I think once in the family, that they should consider having their children done so as to partake of the Passover rememberance. If was unloving of those who were arguing this to want them to immediately start following everything. It's like if you Marry into a family you are immediately required to know the whole family history, and every ones names and their childrens names and their favorite things, everything about them that would naturally take years to learn by being around them. But for starting off you are introduced to them by name and hope to remember a few of them. And each time you meet with them, you learn a little more, and next time a little more........

If gentiles are expected to celebrate, Sukkot in the kingdom, don't you think they should learn about it and start rehearsing now? I think that is only fair and loving.






Maybe so...it would certainly be good manners....but I have to go with what is actualy written and find it rather conspicuous that no Apostles ever said this. If it were so important...why not?

Again...no gentiles were required to be circumcised or keep the Law of Moses according the what they actually did say.

[Sephania]

I never said 'required', I said, once in the family, many gentiles I know that have come to know of Yeshua and things not done away with, do this as called to a Jewish lifestyle, again not a salvation issue, as I said, not required to be acceptable to G-d.

[yod]

I never said 'required', I said, once in the family, many gentiles I know that have come to know of Yeshua and things not done away with, do this as called to a Jewish lifestyle, again not a salvation issue, as I said, not required to be acceptable to G-d.
Yeah, I understood that you weren't being legalistic or anything


Peace!

[Sephania]

:idea:

The idea that you have to be blood to be a Messianic Jew is a continuation of the exclusivistiy of Judaism. Although I am Jewish, I find it interesting that this idea that Christians should not be held to the same standards as Jews are, concerning mitzvot.

Yeshua came to incorporate those not of Jewish decent into the lineage of Abraham.

As Jesus states specifically, I've not come to abolish, but to fulfill the law and the prophets.

You can be a Messianic Jew... maybe not physically if you don't have actual blood of a Jew--However, after accepting Yeshua as your L-RD and Savior, you are "born again" into the family of G-D; which includes Abraham, Moses, and all the other prophets. You have the "spiritual blood" of a Jew. Then you are required to fulfill the laws.

:preach:

Amirite?

:amen:

I would have to have you look at this prospective achi in light of what Rabbi Shaul said concerning the olive tree in his letter to the Romans . There is still a difference in Jew and Gentile, at least in this world.

Gentiles are to be partakers of the root, but they are still 'wild'. :)

The standards for gentiles was agree upon in the Jerusalem council and can be found in Acts 15, I stand by that councils decision.

[jgonz]

EdNeeman, very nice. :) Thanks for resurrecting this thread. :thumbsup:

[HaReb]

Erhemm, may I ask you all a question?

Did Avram, from whom all Jews claim descent, become a Jew (and how) or was he the only Jew on earth at that time?

[HaReb]

Ok! That was a conversation stopper!

Still a valid question, though, whichever side of the fence you like to sit on!