Wealthy Christians

[RobinD69]

Whatever happened to the original Church and its desire to take care of the congrigation.Why are there wealthy and poor Christians?Shouldnt all Christians be working together to promote the Kingdom of God on Earth?I sit in my local Church on Sunday and Wednesday,and I see a fashion show in the Church and a car show in the parking lot.Dont get me wrong I love my Church but why do people have to be so hypocritical.I take care of my own,I dont make alot of money and I am not looking for a handout,I am not even concerned for myself.What I am concerned about is how much fruit can we produce if we go out like the JW's or the Muslims and make sure all the congrigation is taken care of not just spiritually but physically as well.Why isnt a Church a true store house where all extra items are stored til needed by the needy?Why cant the mechanics of the Church help with the congrigations vehicles?Why cant the carpenters of the Church help with the buildings of the congrigation?So on and so forth.I work for a local garbage company,but I do alot of side work and I find alot of items in the garbage that may be of use to others,cloths,dished,furniture,appliances etc.but I have no where to store these items and cannot afford a place to do so.So much goes to waste and so many are still in need.

[JacobHall86]

Most people dont need help. No reason that those who are successful should give up their profit when it is not Needed. If it is needed adn they dont than they are wrong. But if there isnt a monetary need who are we to tell them to hand over their cash?

And alot of the things you mentioned happen, my mechanic is a member of my church, smae for my barber and dentist and others. I also know that bills have to be payed and needs from their families met. Capitalism is fair, if you are willing to work for it.

[christian73]

Whatever happened to the original Church and its desire to take care of the congrigation.Why are there wealthy and poor Christians?Shouldnt all Christians be working together to promote the Kingdom of God on Earth?I sit in my local Church on Sunday and Wednesday,and I see a fashion show in the Church and a car show in the parking lot.Dont get me wrong I love my Church but why do people have to be so hypocritical.I take care of my own,I dont make alot of money and I am not looking for a handout,I am not even concerned for myself.What I am concerned about is how much fruit can we produce if we go out like the JW's or the Muslims and make sure all the congrigation is taken care of not just spiritually but physically as well.Why isnt a Church a true store house where all extra items are stored til needed by the needy?Why cant the mechanics of the Church help with the congrigations vehicles?Why cant the carpenters of the Church help with the buildings of the congrigation?So on and so forth.I work for a local garbage company,but I do alot of side work and I find alot of items in the garbage that may be of use to others,cloths,dished,furniture,appliances etc.but I have no where to store these items and cannot afford a place to do so.So much goes to waste and so many are still in need.
Unfortunately, that's everywhere. I agree with you, but you're going to find that in every church. It's sad. My church has a lot of problems along that line too. All you can do is pray about it and do what you feel is right.

By the way, I saw that you're a newbie. Welcome. I'm glad you're here. :)

[RobinD69]

Most people dont need help. No reason that those who are successful should give up their profit when it is not Needed. If it is needed adn they dont than they are wrong. But if there isnt a monetary need who are we to tell them to hand over their cash?

And alot of the things you mentioned happen, my mechanic is a member of my church, smae for my barber and dentist and others. I also know that bills have to be payed and needs from their families met. Capitalism is fair, if you are willing to work for it.
Everyone needs help sometimes,but wouldnt it be a fantastic outreach to help those who are not saved and show some true Christian Love.Let these people see Christ in us,give them a helping hand to get on their feet.I do not ask for this help for myself,but I do ask that we be more like the apostles and the first Church.

[arunma]

Whatever happened to the original Church and its desire to take care of the congrigation.Why are there wealthy and poor Christians?Shouldnt all Christians be working together to promote the Kingdom of God on Earth?I sit in my local Church on Sunday and Wednesday,and I see a fashion show in the Church and a car show in the parking lot.Dont get me wrong I love my Church but why do people have to be so hypocritical.I take care of my own,I dont make alot of money and I am not looking for a handout,I am not even concerned for myself.What I am concerned about is how much fruit can we produce if we go out like the JW's or the Muslims and make sure all the congrigation is taken care of not just spiritually but physically as well.Why isnt a Church a true store house where all extra items are stored til needed by the needy?Why cant the mechanics of the Church help with the congrigations vehicles?Why cant the carpenters of the Church help with the buildings of the congrigation?So on and so forth.I work for a local garbage company,but I do alot of side work and I find alot of items in the garbage that may be of use to others,cloths,dished,furniture,appliances etc.but I have no where to store these items and cannot afford a place to do so.So much goes to waste and so many are still in need.

Ideally, this would be the case. It's unfortunate that the church has shirked its financial duties.

[bartony]

This hits a note with me.

We had some friends that he owns a very successful fuel company. I knew John, in passing, in high school. They sold their mansion in the city to build another mansion in the country. They were so good to be with, but I guess, got enough of us peons, so now, the last time I saw him in church, he wouldn't even speak to me--just looked angrily at me. God blessed those people, but I wonder if they may have let it go to their heads and hearts just a wee tad. The e-mails from his wife stopped also. Only God knows their hearts, I know this, but from the outside, it doesn't look too swift, from our angle. I could write a whole thread on some tacky e-mails I got on two occasions, from them. One could say God overblessed them, but He knows what He's doing, and it's not for me to judge. They were there for us once, when my wife was ill in the hospital, but I'd not take bets on that happening again.
Thanks for letting me put my experience with richies in the pot.

[RobinD69]

It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.Remember Satan can come to you as an angel of light.It is possible that those who seem blessed but ignore the needy may be blessed of the wrong spirit.You will know them by their fruits.Just because someone is rich does not mean they are righteous.

[mlqurgw]

Material wealth isn't alaways a blessing, sometimes it is a curse. there is nothing wrong with reaping from your labors and some reap more than others. Believers have been given abundant mercy and grace and it makes them merciful and gracious. The problem is that not all in the church are believers. Actually, I believe there was a thread here sometime ago concerning why the first colonies failed. They sought to follow what was considered a Biblical model of having all things in common but it failed because many were not willing to work and contribute. Paul said that a man who was not willing to work and provide for his own should go hungry. I have myself received help many times from my brothers and sisters in Christ and it was needed and appreciated. At the same time I have tried to help many homeless and out of work people by giving them a job but they have all refused because they wanted a handout not a hand up. Those who have the ability do have a responsibility to help others but that in no way means they should give up what they have earned by hard work.

[mont974x4]

Careful, we may never know how others give and who they help...or how they help.

[mlqurgw]

Careful, we may never know how others give and who they help...or how they help.Exactly. Wish I had thought to say it.

[mont974x4]

Exactly. Wish I had thought to say it.

To be fair, I was also reminding myself.


It is far to easy to second guess others. We see them not getting involved in serving in the church but what if they use Sunday to be fed and recharge after spending the other 6 days of the week serving in numerous ways and places?

Same thing can be applied to the money issue.

Personally, I give very little to our home church compared to our total giving.

[lucypevensie]

It's not more righteous to be poor versus rich. Riches in and of themselves do not make a person holy or unholy.

God chooses to bless people in different ways and I don't think we should begrudge Him that.

Be careful how you judge people you view as rich. How do you know they aren't helping the poor or donating money to missions and such?

[lucypevensie]

But I know what you mean. It would be nice to see more evidence of Christians being givers. I like what you said about mechanics and carpenters and so on giving their time and services to help others, also collecting food. Our church does a lot of this kind of thing, and most of our members are "upper crust" finacially (not us, don't get any ideas:D). It's a real blessing to see how God works.

[HypoTypoSis]

1...Whatever happened to the original Church and its desire to take care of the congrigation.

2...Why are there wealthy and poor Christians?

3...Shouldnt all Christians be working together to promote the Kingdom of God on Earth?

1...Luke 12:48, "...For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

Back then a cooperative collective of personal goods and funds was necessary. For the most part, today it is not. Over history there have been times when transportation and communication difficulties coupled with economic survival and safety concerns necessitated cooperatives and collectives.

For example, over the last one hundred and fifty years we have seen that in hard economic times cooperatives have flourished but in times of plenty unions have flourished. Circumstances and need have had a strong influence on the "we and me" concept.

Today, for the most part, collective ownership of goods as was necessitated in the early NT Church is regarded as socialist, even communist, and against the free will and capitalist concepts of a free world and free market society.

Obviously, it can be readily seen that if everyone mixed their efforts, possessions and wages into one collective pot and gave each a "one member-one vote" status regardless of contribution the potential for abuse is great.

2...Matthew 26:11, "For ye have the poor always with you"

This is an age old issue and will never in this age disappear, despite what the humanistic views of 24th Century Star Trek would have us believingly hope for.

3...Matthew 22:16-21, "...Master, we know that thou...teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men. Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not? But Jesus...said, ...Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's."

Jesus did not come with a master plan of social, economic or military change. This is where the Jews were so very much mistaken. They expected their long awaited Messiah to assume the position of King and take over the world with them ruling the nations under their King from Jerusalem. Right idea, wrong world, wrong time, wrong Jerusalem; they were simply out of synch with God's plan.

[53Isaiah]

Whatever happened to the original Church and its desire to take care of the congrigation.Why are there wealthy and poor Christians?Shouldnt all Christians be working together to promote the Kingdom of God on Earth?I sit in my local Church on Sunday and Wednesday,and I see a fashion show in the Church and a car show in the parking lot.Dont get me wrong I love my Church but why do people have to be so hypocritical.I take care of my own,I dont make alot of money and I am not looking for a handout,I am not even concerned for myself.What I am concerned about is how much fruit can we produce if we go out like the JW's or the Muslims and make sure all the congrigation is taken care of not just spiritually but physically as well.Why isnt a Church a true store house where all extra items are stored til needed by the needy?Why cant the mechanics of the Church help with the congrigations vehicles?Why cant the carpenters of the Church help with the buildings of the congrigation?So on and so forth.I work for a local garbage company,but I do alot of side work and I find alot of items in the garbage that may be of use to others,cloths,dished,furniture,appliances etc.but I have no where to store these items and cannot afford a place to do so.So much goes to waste and so many are still in need.

It is a fallacy that rich can afford to be more charitable than others. Why? Because tithing and charity are heart conditions not economic. There are people that give more to the church then some that write $200 checks each week. I am reminded of this:

Revelation 3
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

[RajunCajun86]

what would happen if christians gave to missions to advance The Kingdom of God, instead of investing so much in things
what if churchs gave to missions to advance The Kingdom of God, instead of building giant buildings and having extravagant media "stuff"
what would happen if our primary goal was lost people? (it was Jesus' goal)
what would our world look like?
what would our churchs look like?
for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Matthew 6:21
i am not being judgemental just observant,
if i see someone's car and know how much that car costs can i see where their treasure is
if i see someone's house and the front of the neighborhood states the price range of the houses can i see where their treasure is
From everyone who has been given much, much will be required
Luke 12:48
"Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Matthew 19:24

[mont974x4]

I have often wondered what would happen if the church stepped up and took care of the poor as it should as opposed to the state.

There is great truth in the idea that we will be blessed when we give rightly...this has nothing to do with the amount we give but the heart with which it is given.

Personally, there are a two groups that are dear to my heart...disabled veterans and children.

I have found two things that greatly impacted my giving:
1. absolutely everything I have is His (money, stuff, skills, time, and heart, call etc)
2. let the two greatest commandments impact, and show through, my giving

remember, nothing in the NT shows that our giving must go to the church. It isn't a bad thing to do this. However, I have much greater peace and joy in my giving when I pray about where to give each week and listen to His voice about where and how much to give. I may give to a specific family in need, the local rescue mission, my home church, or another organization. Also, I don't get too hung up on the 10%..I usually feel led to a specific dollar amount and sometimes its more sometimes its less but it is always because I want to bless other people.

Also, the Bible describes a man who does not provide for his family as being worse than an unbeliever. I have no right to drive my family into destitution (and thereby making us the ones in need) no matter how noble the reason may be.

In the OT, sacrifice and offering was the first and best while tithe was every 10th to pass through the gate. What did they do if they only had 9? Does that impact our view of tithe and giving?

just tossing stuff out there for discussion

[RajunCajun86]

my dad raised me to not ask God how much i should give but rather to ask how much i should keep
it all belongs to the Creator and Savior

[mont974x4]

my dad raised me to not ask God how much i should give but rather to ask how much i should keep
it all belongs to the Creator and Savior

I like that idea!:thumbsup:

[bartony]

I sure don't have a problem with people being blessed, and am proud for the former friends. What got me is how they changed towards us. In early e-mails from his wife, all she could do is shove their real friends in our face--tell of eating out with them, what great times they had with them. How do you think that made US feel? On the outside looking in, actually.

She was tacky to us in a couple of e-mails early on, for what reasons, I can't even recall. But, what got me is when John once e-mailed me that all I talk about are my health problems. Untrue, really, but he didn't seem to believe the part of God's Word where we are to bear one another's burdens, pray for each other to be healed. That e-mail of his really went against the Word, I feel. I never felt comfortable again, about talking about our health to these people. I have no problem with their wealth, but rather, their "Christian" attitude.

[HypoTypoSis]

2 Corinthians 2:15-16, "For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life."

[RED that's ME]

There's nothing wrong with a person having wealth. (my family is far from wealthy :P)
There's plenty of Bible people that had wealth that God used & blessed like David, Solomon, Job. It's not always what you have but how you use it.
There's poor people who can be just as bad giving begrudgingly to the Lord. It's a heart matter really. Sometimes we look at others through dirty/colored glasses and don't always see them as God sees them.
We need to make sure we're doing our best FIRST and pray for others they will be in obedience to God too.
Sometimes we also put our own prejudices/jealousy/coveteousness on others. When we stand before God we won't have to answer for other people's actions, only our own.:bow:

Money is not the *root of all evil* but the *love of it*. There's a difference.

http://www.christianforums.com/mhtml:mid://00000137/%21http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f4/redgifs/Spiritual%20signs/heart.gif


http://www.christianforums.com/mhtml:mid://00000137/%21http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f4/redgifs/Spiritual%20signs/heart.gif

[AJ]

I am actually thankful that I am not wealthy... It's a corrupting thing to be rich. Personally, if I were to play the lottery and win, it would be the worst thing that could happen to me. :)

Matthew 6:19-21 — “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” (emphasis mine)Proverbs 18:10-11 — “The name of the LORD is a strong tower; the righteous run to it and are safe. The wealth of the rich is their fortified city; they imagine it an unscalable wall.” Ecclesiastes 5:10, 13-14 — “Whoever loves money never has money enough; whoever loves wealth is never satisfied with his income. This too is meaningless … I have seen a grievous evil under the sun: wealth hoarded to the harm of its owner, or wealth lost through some misfortune, so that when he has a son there is nothing left for him.” Luke 12:33 — “Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.” I am just happy to be blessed as much as I have been... The key to materialism is giving... 10% is a great start, with your tithe... I believe that we should not stop there though. We should give as much as possible to help others in need.

I attended a local mega-church and was shocked to find that the pastor lived in a 2 million dollar house on the lake. I can't imagine a man of God living so lavishly when there are so many in need... so many other places that his money could be better spent. The congregation found out that he wanted a nice $15k Rolex watch for Christmas and took up an offering to buy it for him. :scratch: We choose not to continue visiting that church.

It's all about being responsible with the blessings you are bestowed... and staying holy, uncorrupted and generous.

[HumbleMan]

God doesn't expect us to be poor. Rather, He expects us to take care of one another, and He expects us to be good stewards of His blessings.

One poster in this thread stated that there weren't many people that really needed help. I disagree. There are many people that need help. But throwing your money at different charities and organizations just because you feel it's your Christian obligation is just as wrong.

If anything, we are called to be personal with those around us. That means getting involved on a personal basis, getting to know people, knowing how to help them not just that they need help. When you know your neighbor, you know when he loses his job. You also know his child has a food allergy so when you buy them groceries, you know what they can eat. You know he's got dyslexia, so you help him write his resume. You know his hurt, so you can share it with him.

[Andyman_1970]

Jesus did not come with a master plan of social, economic.............

He sure tries to effect those things in His earthly ministry..........why shouldn't we as His followers, His disciples strive to do the same?

[mont974x4]

God doesn't expect us to be poor. Rather, He expects us to take care of one another, and He expects us to be good stewards of His blessings.

One poster in this thread stated that there weren't many people that really needed help. I disagree. There are many people that need help. But throwing your money at different charities and organizations just because you feel it's your Christian obligation is just as wrong.

If anything, we are called to be personal with those around us. That means getting involved on a personal basis, getting to know people, knowing how to help them not just that they need help. When you know your neighbor, you know when he loses his job. You also know his child has a food allergy so when you buy them groceries, you know what they can eat. You know he's got dyslexia, so you help him write his resume. You know his hurt, so you can share it with him.



How this is hits a nerve! lol

Simply writing a check seems like the easy way out to me. It saves us from personal involvment. It also provides accountablility issues. Isn't it being a better steward if we get involved personally and really research where our giving is going?

You are also right, our time can be part of our giving.

Shortly after Katrina I convinced my church to send me and another man to Mississippi. We loaded up a cargo trailer with drywall, non-perishable foods and other supplies. We stayed for almost a week and rebuilt a roof for an older single lady and helped repair another roof.

I must say that being a blessing to others is in itself a blessing for us. I wish more people could experience that.

You don't have to drive 2000+ miles to help, look around with open eyes and needs will be found.

[Andyman_1970]

One thing to keep in mind with reference to wealth. The only account Jesus gives in the Gospels (Luke) of an actual person in an actual eternal hell is the story (not a parable) of the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man didn't go to Hell because he was rich, he went to hell the story implies because he didn't take care of Lazarus when he had the power to..........as is commanded in the Torah.

[JPPT1974]

I think what they do with their money is
None of our business except their own and
Except what God wants them to do with their money
It is exactly up to both them and Him!

[HypoTypoSis]

Originally Posted by HypoTypoSis http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=26473661#post26473661)
Jesus did not come with a master plan of social, economic.............


He sure tries to effect those things in His earthly ministry..........why shouldn't we as His followers, His disciples strive to do the same?

Na, not really, man does that. The only thing Jesus did was to:

John 10:10, "...come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

[HypoTypoSis]

The only account Jesus gives in the Gospels (Luke) of an actual person in an actual eternal hell is the story (not a parable) of the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man didn't go to Hell because he was rich, he went to hell the story implies because he didn't take care of Lazarus when he had the power to..........as is commanded in the Torah.

uh...uh uh, that was a very old story well known to the Jews of the time and parabalized over the previous millennia. This was not something Jesus made up on the spot, nor was it's purpose and intent either eternal torment nor rich vs poor. Poor misunderstanding of early Hebrew culture and history combined by unknowledgeable Christians not realizing the early Christian/Catholic Replacment Theology influences have propagated its retelling in a Christian focused venue as they take all the blessings and promises God gave Israel leaving them only the curses. People are conditioned to see in the story what is not there and a careful word by word and phrase by phrase analysis shows this to be the case.

[Razorbuck]

Unfortunately, that's everywhere. I agree with you, but you're going to find that in every church. It's sad. My church has a lot of problems along that line too. All you can do is pray about it and do what you feel is right.

By the way, I saw that you're a newbie. Welcome. I'm glad you're here. :)

Not every church.

Our church (a small, independent Baptist work) does distribute to the necessity of the saints. There is not one rich man among us in material terms, but everyone gives when a brother or sister is in need. We distribute food for some of the older folks whose social security doesn't provide adequately, or help with purchasing medicine. A fellow in the church works on just about everybody's car when there's a problem, another does home repairs. I have given much to the saints, and have received much. If we are prospering as individuals, we see ourselves through, if not we can rely on our LORD's family to provide. It is easier with a small work I imagine, since everyone is on fairly intimate terms with everyone else, and if there is a need, everyone knows it and can respond.

We are truly blessed with brothers and sisters who seek to bear one another's burdens, be they material, spiritual, emotional, etc. I wish it could be so in every Christian assembly.

[Andyman_1970]

Na, not really, man does that. The only thing Jesus did was to:

John 10:10, "...come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

Yeah life here and now, not just when we get to Heaven.........IMO to assert that Jesus' message was only about getting into Heaven and not changing the right here and now to be as close to how God wants it to be is dualism..........Gnosticisms cuddly cousin.....

[Andyman_1970]

uh...uh uh, that was a very old story well known to the Jews of the time and parabalized over the previous millennia. This was not something Jesus made up on the spot, nor was it's purpose and intent either eternal torment nor rich vs poor. Poor misunderstanding of early Hebrew culture and history combined by unknowledgeable Christians not realizing the early Christian/Catholic Replacment Theology influences have propagated its retelling in a Christian focused venue as they take all the blessings and promises God gave Israel leaving them only the curses. People are conditioned to see in the story what is not there and a careful word by word and phrase by phrase analysis shows this to be the case.

The previous millenia? Really? That story was told for 1000 years before Jesus? I'd be interested in your source on that.

I'm not aware that the story I reference is in fact a rabbinic parable as they rarely if ever use proper names.......

I don't read it as replacement theology or anything of the sort..........I read it as a wealthy Jewish man who ignored the commands of Torah that say those with the means to help those in need are obliged by God to do so.

[HypoTypoSis]

The previous millenia? Really? That story was told for 1000 years before Jesus? I'd be interested in your source on that.

I'm not aware that the story I reference is in fact a rabbinic parable as they rarely if ever use proper names.......

I don't read it as replacement theology or anything of the sort..........I read it as a wealthy Jewish man who ignored the commands of Torah that say those with the means to help those in need are obliged by God to do so.

I have three lengthy and scholarly PHD type articles written by three different individuals on the subject. If any are interested please PM for copies.

[HypoTypoSis]

Yeah life here and now, not just when we get to Heaven.........IMO to assert that Jesus' message was only about getting into Heaven and not changing the right here and now to be as close to how God wants it to be is dualism..........Gnosticisms cuddly cousin.....

Gnosticism, it's cuddly cousin and all their humanist siblings would believe that the world and all its contents can be repaired and saved. If this were so it and everything in it would not be headed for ultimate destruction and extinction. Mankind has been on a long prophesied downward spiraling degenerative self-destructive path that cannot and will not change. Jesus' purpose and our commission as citizens of heaven is not to repair the world or its contents. As residents of our 3rd Rock Dominion it is in our best interest to husband it to the best of our ability. But I do not see a scriptural relationship between the creation and those we are to point the way of salvation to.

[chris777]

I have noticed much of what the original poster stated myself, and It has bothered, me.
I have always wondered why it is that the church is more like a club house than a place to help the lost.
Anyone remember "little house on the prairie"
We all keep wondering whats happening to the church at large, and all the people that embrace the secular, but yet its as if we have forgotten our purpose.
The church used to be a place to meed our needs, ALL of them.
They taught their children there.
they weathered the storms there.
they treated the sick there.
they fed the lost there,
they housed the homeless there,
they colthed the naked there.

Now what do we do?
Build gyms, and recreation centers?
Is this something we should offer up to God as honorable?
or should we lower our heads as to not even see anything in front of us in shame to the lord for forgetting our neighbors in the pursuit, of entertainment, flash , and becoming like the world.
I keep seeing people making excuses, (not just in here, but for all manner of behaviors) If we were truely obeying Jesus, why is it we would need any other justification?

For the life of me I honestly cannot fathom why we spend more time, on fancy audiosystems, elaborate multimedia, lush, extravagant decoration, and Entertainment, of all things?
Since when was the Gospel itself, insufficent to save souls?
and why is it we build basketball courts, and gyms, when what we should be doing is biulding soup kitchens, and homeless shelters?
As for no one beeing needy, I see them everyday, and have helped some, until I myself started to become one.
I am not saying we should all be impoverished, but I am broke, living with my parents, jobless since the beginning of last year, and I look around my room and see how rich I am, as to why those who live more abundant than I do, cannot, I don't know, But I do know I for one am ashamed at how I have squandered, my wealth, and have little to show for it.
I know what True treasure is, and this place has none of it.
I am grateful for my poverty, (in the eyes of our nation)
For without my need, I do not know if I would have recognized my need for salvation apart from myself, since their is no way I could earn it, nor would I ever deserve it.

[Jason19]

what happens is (and especially in baptist churches) is christians live six days a week in the world, and sundays at church. First know... this is a finger pointed first at me! lol.
all the fancy cars or clothes (or whatever it may be that we hoard or treasure) are from "their other life". It then leaks into the church doors as status symbols.
"rich" people (or in debt is more like it :P) spend so much time in fancy'n their worldly life, there is no room to let go once inside the church. Its sad to hear and see the annoucments of church needs... and so many of them seem so basic. The Church (most churches) have really failed at this cause of "having all things common", and looking out for the well being of others FIRST.

[Andyman_1970]

Gnosticism, it's cuddly cousin and all their humanist siblings would believe that the world and all its contents can be repaired and saved.

We have differing understandings of Gnosticism/Dualism then………from I have studied they teach that the physical is evil and spiritual is good, that Jesus wasn’t really a human but a spirit (if He was really human and thus of this physical world He couldn’t be sinless).

If this were so it and everything in it would not be headed for ultimate destruction and extinction. Mankind has been on a long prophesied downward spiraling degenerative self-destructive path that cannot and will not change.

The idea that the world is getting worse and worse and worse and we as the church are a “lifeboat” to get out of said worsening condition is certainly not a philosophy that the authors of the Scriptures be they Hebrew or Apostolic would have held.

Jesus' purpose and our commission as citizens of heaven is not to repair the world or its contents. As residents of our 3rd Rock Dominion it is in our best interest to husband it to the best of our ability. But I do not see a scriptural relationship between the creation and those we are to point the way of salvation to.

So the Hebrew Scriptures don’t say the whole earth declares God’s glory???

We obviously have different world views…………….

[HypoTypoSis]

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. It was perfect just as is His nature.

Anything God does He does perfect the first time. He does not create anything that is imperfect, sickly, diseased or dying.

When Satan rebelled creation was damaged and has been 'winding down' - dying, as it were, ever since.

When Adam and Eve Fell the whole of the natural order of things was damaged and has been 'dying you shall die" ever since.

These damages are irreparable and, in the end, God will destroy the entirety of creation, heaven and earth alike, to nothingness.

He will then create a new heaven and a new earth.

[Cright]

okay... I might be off the current thread topic, because I only read the first page of this thread. Someone wrote... the only think you can do about it is pray. Not so. That's the FIRST thing that should be done about this situation, but not the only one.

My church has small groups. When I see things like this going on, I bring it up in my small group. Ask who wants to help me approach leadership and then make a plan and present it. It usually goes something like this...

Mr. Doe and I have noticed a need in this particular area....
We decided that we could contribuite X amount of time and effort to asking for donations etc.. and X amount of time to distributing them. We'd like to do this in the name of our church family and are seeking approval.
Also (this part is important), we would like to know if there are others in the church you don't mind us asking to help out with this project. Our goal is X amount (of goods or services) to be provided and I think we'd need X amount of people to do this in the time frame we desire.

Usually church leadership is thrilled that someone has not only given an idea, but has taken ownership in getting the job done. This is being a compelling Christian, and the kind that pastors/deacons love to send out in the name of the church.

I hope you take the initative to do something about this in your area.

If any of you live in SE Michigan and would like to help me out with my 2nd annual yearly drive for the homeless in my community just PM me!

;)
Carina

[Andyman_1970]

When Satan rebelled creation was damaged and has been 'winding down' - dying, as it were, ever since.

When Adam and Eve Fell the whole of the natural order of things was damaged and has been 'dying you shall die" ever since.

These damages are irreparable..................

Where is that idea found in 1st century Judaism?

[RED that's ME]

Giving is a 2 way street. God does want us to have good things as well as helping others in need. :)

Food for thought....
God does expect us to help others out in need but sometimes they could be going through a personal learning lesson in their situation.
Should the wealthy help/keep helping people who don't try to be a responsible person?

Some people try and do take advantage of christians/churches for their own profit. I go to a large church & there's people coming weekly/sometimes daily asking for handouts. Some of these people go from church to church looking for handouts & not willing to work. I know this is not the case in every situation. My church has grouped together with other local churches to help those truly in need and makes sure they're not being taking advantage of.

For those who say wealthy people should give their wealth away... to what point? Should they give away their money to anyone who ask? Should the person receiving take any responsibility for their life?
What if this is a learning lesson God is using with the person, should we go around it to help them?

[A Brother In Christ]

Whatever happened to the original Church and its desire to take care of the congrigation.Why are there wealthy and poor Christians?Shouldnt all Christians be working together to promote the Kingdom of God on Earth?luke 12:51

only after the 1000 yr will there be peace I sit in my local Church on Sunday and Wednesday,and I see a fashion show in the Church and a car show in the parking lot.Dont get me wrong I love my Church but why do people have to be so hypocritical.I take care of my own,I dont make alot of money and I am not looking for a handout,I am not even concerned for myself.What I am concerned about is how much fruit can we produce if we go out like the JW's or the Muslims and make sure all the congrigation is taken care of not just spiritually but physically as well.Why isnt a Church a true store house where all extra items are stored til needed by the needy?Why cant the mechanics of the Church help with the congrigations vehicles?Why cant the carpenters of the Church help with the buildings of the congrigation?So on and so forth.I work for a local garbage company,but I do alot of side work and I find alot of items in the garbage that may be of use to others,cloths,dished,furniture,appliances etc.but I have no where to store these items and cannot afford a place to do so.So much goes to waste and so many are still in need. called the OSN

each one of us is called to guard the unity of the Spirit..eph 4:3

but this will not happen for the whole till the rapture eph 4:13

[JPPT1974]

Well just as long as you
Are tithing and making sure
That you give Chris what He
Deserve, then there is nothing wrong with being rich
As long as you don't let the love of money control you!

[HypoTypoSis]

Originally Posted by HypoTypoSis http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=26507532#post26507532)
When Satan rebelled creation was damaged and has been 'winding down' - dying, as it were, ever since.

When Adam and Eve Fell the whole of the natural order of things was damaged and has been 'dying you shall die" ever since.

These damages are irreparable

Where is that idea found in 1st century Judaism?

Didn't reference anything about 1st Century Judaism in this respect; however, in light of both science and scripture, sin and its logical effects are readily witnessed with respect to its damage being universal in scope.

The following will give a good introduction to the subject:

Concerning the Early History of Planet Earth (http://www.ldolphin.org/Early.html)

Implications of a Non-Constant Velocity of Light (http://www.ldolphin.org/cdkconseq.html)

Creation By Intelligent Design (http://www.ldolphin.org/cid.html)

Speed of Light Analysis (http://www.ldolphin.org/cdkalan.html)

Creation Science Evangelism (http://www.ldolphin.org/hovind-ross.html)

[joanna1]

Most people dont need help. No reason that those who are successful should give up their profit when it is not Needed. If it is needed adn they dont than they are wrong. But if there isnt a monetary need who are we to tell them to hand over their cash?

And alot of the things you mentioned happen, my mechanic is a member of my church, smae for my barber and dentist and others. I also know that bills have to be payed and needs from their families met. Capitalism is fair, if you are willing to work for it.

Well I guess you're avatar "strike first, strike hard, no mercy" says a lot of things about your personality. Man, you need to go on a few mission trips to poor countries, or simply walk downtown to meet a few poor locals and rethink your definition of fairness.
If you live in a cushy area of the states where people are all wealthy then send your extra cash elsewhere.

As for capitalism being fair, well I guess "famous last words". Money belongs to God and he can chose to take it away when he wants.
I have a major problem, not with rich people, but with people who somehow think they "deserve" their financial status. As if they were somehow more intelligent, hardworking and deserving than all those who gave up their financial prospects to work for others as missionaries, social workers or any other low income but worthy profession.

[HypoTypoSis]

As for capitalism being fair, well I guess "famous last words". Money belongs to God and he can chose to take it away when he wants.

I have a major problem, not with rich people, but with people who somehow think they "deserve" their financial status.

:thumbsup: Please go to the head of the class. :amen:

[mont974x4]

How should we balance things out? We know the Bible says a man who does not provide for his family is worse than an unbleiver. We also know we should take care of the poor, widows, etc.

I don;t want to encourage anyone to coninue living with their hand out when they should be encouraged to do whatever it takes and to be the people God intends them to be.

On the flipside, I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.


I help people who have real needs as best I can. I will not help people that are happy to live off others as their choice.

[HypoTypoSis]

How should we balance things out?
Others may think of more to add to the list
The list could be further reorganized.
The list could be generally or personally arranged.


God
Family
Church family
Local society
Extended Church family
Country
Local unsaved
unsaved world

[JacobHall86]

Well I guess you're avatar "strike first, strike hard, no mercy" says a lot of things about your personality. Man, you need to go on a few mission trips to poor countries, or simply walk downtown to meet a few poor locals and rethink your definition of fairness.
If you live in a cushy area of the states where people are all wealthy then send your extra cash elsewhere.

As for capitalism being fair, well I guess "famous last words". Money belongs to God and he can chose to take it away when he wants.
I have a major problem, not with rich people, but with people who somehow think they "deserve" their financial status. As if they were somehow more intelligent, hardworking and deserving than all those who gave up their financial prospects to work for others as missionaries, social workers or any other low income but worthy profession.

Actually my avatar is from the Movie the Karate Kid, its the Logo of the Cobra Kai. But go ahead and assume things. I have done more mission work in areas liek the mentioned than most my age.

Noone said not to give money, just that Christians shouldnt reward Laziness. Dont assume anything about me.

[joanna1]

Actually my avatar is from the Movie the Karate Kid, its the Logo of the Cobra Kai. But go ahead and assume things. I have done more mission work in areas liek the mentioned than most my age.

Noone said not to give money, just that Christians shouldnt reward Laziness. Dont assume anything about me.
Well sorry but your post really shocked me - and wherever your avatar comes from, it is also the first thing that struck me seeing your post.
It's the "most people don't need help" that is just plain wrong. A very small proportion of the world population earns the vast majority of the riches. And the rest are not lazy, far from it.
Moreover, the statement "capitalism is fair" is extremely simplistic and manichean. With capitalism, the unfairness is just far removed from the eyes of those who are making the profit.

[JacobHall86]

Im not making any profits, I'm a college student strugging to pay tuition out of pocket and still have enough for food.

over 85% of people who dont ahve enough money try to live beyond their means, they dont have any room to ask for food if they can afford a pack of smokes.

Those who live in poverty in America Live a ton better than those who live in what would be considered decent housing in the third world.

Capitalism is the fairest economic system. If someone is willing to work, they can find a job. Unless they are to proud.

[joanna1]

over 85% of people who dont ahve enough money try to live beyond their means, they dont have any room to ask for food if they can afford a pack of smokes.

Those who live in poverty in America Live a ton better than those who live in what would be considered decent housing in the third world.

Capitalism is the fairest economic system. If someone is willing to work, they can find a job. Unless they are to proud.

As i tried to point out, things are not limited to America. You say yourself that in the third world people are in desperate conditions. THEY are the majority i'm talking about. They are the ones that very wealthy christians should think about helping, before they purchase their third oversized vehicle. The 85% you're talking about are americans - as if the other didn't count. The church in the biblical sense of the word has no borders.

Your view of capitalism, once again, is very short-sighted. Yes, in America, people looking for a job can find a job. But capitalism works by making a profit, and you always make a profit to the detriment of someone else.
Ask the people in clothes factories in the third world countries if they feel they are being treated fairly. Yet they are the direct result of capitalism. Ask the coffee bean producers in south america if they are being paid the right price by the big american companies. Ect.
Capitalism may be fair for your country, but it's not to those lower in the production chain. Your thoughts always seem to stop at the american borders.

[JacobHall86]

I have no problem helpin those in third world countries. My comment was directed at those who live in America.

Show me a better economic system, In Practice, that beats capitalism.

[joanna1]

Better? For who? In what way?
For those exploited in the clothes factories anything would be better than capitalism.
What are your criteria? In terms of "health" of the economy, well capitalism is the most profitable. In terms of reducing social inequality, a mixt system is the best. It just depends on your way of measuring things.In France for instance, everybody has access to top quality healthcare. No question of needing to be able to afford insurance like there is in the States. That's very important to me.
Great Britain is very capitalist country. Yet it's workers are the most stressed out and exhausted in Europe.

[JacobHall86]

GB is not very capitalist. And Socialized healthcare is a horrible Idea.

[mont974x4]

Sorry, but I no evidence that it is the governments job to take care of of anyone (school, health, provide jobs etc) other than protection from foreign threats and criminals within.

That being said, it is our job as the Church to take care of those in need. However, we are not to enable them to continue to live from our hand to their mouth.

I prefer to give them fish while teaching them to fish for themselves as opposed to just giving them fish.


Also, being a good steward also entails holding those we help accountable. For example, look at what contitutes a widow in the NT and what qualifies her for help from the local body. We don't blindly toss money to charities or individuals that request it, heck I'd be writing a check every day if I did that.

[joanna1]

GB is not very capitalist. And Socialized healthcare is a horrible Idea.
you're talking to an MK who is VERY grateful that the state paid for her healthcare. It's the best idea. Goodness knows where i'd be now without it. Your views are obviously, well, american. Europe and america have opposed ideas and what's important. I obviously would prefer the USA not to worry so much about "terrorists" they seem to see everywhere and more about the poor people in the schizophrenia thread who can't afford anymore medication. silly me. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[JacobHall86]

Socialised healthcare wont work on a massive scale. And how about this, you let Americans worry about America, and the terrorists.

[mont974x4]

socialism costs too much:
too much in taxes
too much time
too many people/lives

[JPPT1974]

socialism costs too much:
too much in taxes
too much time
too many people/lives

Yeah you got that right
At times like these, I am glad that I am not rich
Would rather be poor and happy than rich and miserable!

[JacobHall86]

you're talking to an MK who is VERY grateful that the state paid for her healthcare. It's the best idea. Goodness knows where i'd be now without it. Your views are obviously, well, american. Europe and america have opposed ideas and what's important. I obviously would prefer the USA not to worry so much about "terrorists" they seem to see everywhere and more about the poor people in the schizophrenia thread who can't afford anymore medication. silly me. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I went back through and reread this. I am still blown away by this post.
Thats great that you like socialized healthcare, but its not a good idea. No incentive for Doctors to do better. BTW, alot of people cant afford things they need because they instead spend money on things they want.

[HypoTypoSis]

alot of people cant afford things they need because they instead spend money on things they want.

That's a very telling - and true - statement.

So, governments (read: 'you') should pay for my necessities because I spent my 'health related money' on a new Cadillac, computer system, trip to CanCun, etc.

Why, Thank you very much!

I appreciate you so-o-o much, in fact, I think I'll do it all again next month!

[JacobHall86]

Exactly. The Govt spends my money on people who dont regulate theirs. What the junk is that about.

Some girl was telling me I was heartless for opposing welfare (she argued for food stamps as well, which im not really against if used correctly) and told me she needed that help, but she told me this OVER A COMPUTER. she had enough for a computer system and internet. I was ticked.

[WordForUs]

Whatever happened to the original Church and its desire to take care of the congrigation.Why are there wealthy and poor Christians?Shouldnt all Christians be working together to promote the Kingdom of God on Earth?I sit in my local Church on Sunday and Wednesday,and I see a fashion show in the Church and a car show in the parking lot.Dont get me wrong I love my Church but why do people have to be so hypocritical.I take care of my own,I dont make alot of money and I am not looking for a handout,I am not even concerned for myself.What I am concerned about is how much fruit can we produce if we go out like the JW's or the Muslims and make sure all the congrigation is taken care of not just spiritually but physically as well.Why isnt a Church a true store house where all extra items are stored til needed by the needy?Why cant the mechanics of the Church help with the congrigations vehicles?Why cant the carpenters of the Church help with the buildings of the congrigation?So on and so forth.I work for a local garbage company,but I do alot of side work and I find alot of items in the garbage that may be of use to others,cloths,dished,furniture,appliances etc.but I have no where to store these items and cannot afford a place to do so.So much goes to waste and so many are still in need.
You can start your own Church.
Or watch how people are mislead into death.

And the false snakes were consumed by the snake of Moses.


Amen.

[RajunCajun86]

Exactly. The Govt spends my money on people who dont regulate theirs. What the junk is that about.

Some girl was telling me I was heartless for opposing welfare (she argued for food stamps as well, which im not really against if used correctly) and told me she needed that help, but she told me this OVER A COMPUTER. she had enough for a computer system and internet. I was ticked.
wow
If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.
2 Thessalonians 3:10b
hmmm

[JacobHall86]

Exactly.

[JPPT1974]

It is the love of money that corrupts
Not what really you do with it
But the LOVE and GREED that really
Is wrong!

[sandra8230]

Exactly. The Govt spends my money on people who dont regulate theirs. What the junk is that about.

Some girl was telling me I was heartless for opposing welfare (she argued for food stamps as well, which im not really against if used correctly) and told me she needed that help, but she told me this OVER A COMPUTER. she had enough for a computer system and internet. I was ticked.

hello? it's called a friends house. I have never owned my own computer and if you are going to talk about people behind their backs maybe you should mention their name, as you requested here: No, I dont care if someone comes to me with a problem about me or not, i care when people go behind my back and gossip, if the problem is big enough to talk about, its big enough to come to me about. http://www.christianforums.com/t3694503&page=6

I'm sorry you were ticked. I do regulate my money. yall really want to help? want me to show you my budget? I will if you want me to.

[sandra8230]

Exactly. The Govt spends my money on people who dont regulate theirs. What the junk is that about.

Some girl was telling me I was heartless for opposing welfare (she argued for food stamps as well, which im not really against if used correctly) and told me she needed that help, but she told me this OVER A COMPUTER. she had enough for a computer system and internet. I was ticked.

wow
If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.
2 Thessalonians 3:10b
hmmm

I do work thank you very much. And it's not about me eating, it's about my son. My 23 month old innocent son.

[JacobHall86]

hello? it's called a friends house. I have never owned my own computer and if you are going to talk about people behind their backs maybe you should mention their name, as you requested here: http://www.christianforums.com/t3694503&page=6

I'm sorry you were ticked. I do regulate my money will you not be a hypocrite and not talk about me behind my back? thank you

I never complained about you, the situation I set up could have been about anyone. It was intended to be written that way.

[sandra8230]

what exactly do you mean by exactly?

[JacobHall86]

Exactly that if someone is not willing to work, they are not worthy to eat.

[sandra8230]

-

[arunma]

Quote:
If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.
2 Thessalonians 3:10b
hmmm

This verse needs to be understood in its proper context. And like all Scripture, it should not be misused for political agendas. As it says,
For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you. It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate. For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat. For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies. (2 Thessalonians 3:7-11)
Clearly this addresses the issue of abusing Christian generosity, and not the use of corporate funds. Even when read alone, the verse in question refers not to people who do not work, but to people who are unwilling to work. The issue of the use of corporate church funds is addressed elsewhere:
Command these things as well, so that they may be without reproach. But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. Let a widow be enrolled if she is not less than sixty years of age, having been the wife of one husband, and having a reputation for good works: if she has brought up children, has shown hospitality, has washed the feet of the saints, has cared for the afflicted, and has devoted herself to every good work. But refuse to enroll younger widows, for when their passions draw them away from Christ, they desire to marry and so incur condemnation for having abandoned their former faith. Besides that, they learn to be idlers, going about from house to house, and not only idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying what they should not. (1 Timothy 5:7-13)
So then, the idea of welfare is not without Scriptural support. Of course, it ought to be noted that all of these texts refer to the activity of the church, not the government. While the New Testament church's model is of limited value in determining political policy, this model cannot be used alone in determining said policy. The operation of the state will never parallel the operation of the church perfectly, nor should it (since the state has a different role than the church). So then, let us be careful to apply God's word to all of our decisions in life, but not to misapply it.

And if I may insert my own personal blurb, I'm obviously quite in favor of social welfare...

[JacobHall86]

I agree Arunma, it is for the church and how it should dispurse its goods.

But i dont think the Govt has any right to take money from me at gunpoint to give to someone else who does not work.

[sandra8230]

I agree Arunma, it is for the church and how it should dispurse its goods.

But i dont think the Govt has any right to take money from me at gunpoint to give to someone else who does not work.
but you do agree that the people who do work, and just don't make a lot of money can receive food and medicaid correct?

[JacobHall86]

The Government has no business taking money from me to give to someone else. Period.

Smaller govt would benefit everyone.

[arunma]

I agree Arunma, it is for the church and how it should dispurse its goods.

But i dont think the Govt has any right to take money from me at gunpoint to give to someone else who does not work.


Of course you, like all people, are entitled to your views on political policy. But as it says,Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed. (Romans 13:5-7)
Now, let us remember that this was written in an age when the world was ruled by kings and emperors. In America and most other nations in the world, citizens have the somewhat unique ability to participate in dictating political policy. But the Scriptures command us to pay our taxes even under the assumption that we have no say in the level to which we are taxed. Technically a king could tax his subjects for the purpose of frivolously spending money on himself (as people such as Herod the Great did in ancient times), and the Scripture says that God's wrath would come upon us for failure to pay what we owe our rulers. How much more, then, are we required to pay our taxes when our rulers have a more noble intent!

Does it feel like robbery? I certainly sympathize with that belief. But on realizing that God requires me to pay taxes, regardless of my rulers' use of that tax money, it becomes apparent that I really have not been robbed of anything. All things belong to God, and currency belongs to the government, which is God's minister. We do not own our money, rather it is owned by God. So then, seeing as God requires us to pay taxes, it is impossible for us to be robbed of the money that we pay to that effect, even if the tax is unreasonable.

Anyway, that's my tax-deductable $0.02, which is a lot, considering how little I get paid. :D

[JacobHall86]

I agree that I am under the subject of the Govt in that respect, thats why I pay the taxes. Of course I can also fight (figurative) to change it.

[arunma]

I agree that I am under the subject of the Govt in that respect, thats why I pay the taxes. Of course I can also fight (figurative) to change it.

Indeed you can. Unlike the monarchies and empires that existed in the times of the Bible, many people today live under democracies. So you can certainly vote for those who adhere to your fiscal views. But at the end of the election day, we must all adhere to whatever government has been elected, understanding that it derives its authority from God.

(Incidentally, remember to vote this November.)

[JacobHall86]

I agree totally. Thats why even though I dunno who is going to win in 08, im still gonna live and work here.

[georgie2319]

????????????

[JacobHall86]

Oh, im voting, i vote in the Primaries. Im all about my voting rights.

[sandra8230]

The Government has no business taking money from me to give to someone else. Period.

alright, think of what would happen if welfare disappeared, do you really understand the wave that would be thrown through the economy? all public housing closed-you know how many homeless there would be? all foodstamps gone-you know how many starving children as well as adults there would be? all medicaid gone?-well that'll take care of some of these annoying people as they die off and leave their children in shelters or to fend on their own.

[arunma]

I agree totally. Thats why even though I dunno who is going to win in 08, im still gonna live and work here.

Heh, well I'm still hoping for a Democratic victory (I understand we'll have an obvious disagreement there). But I have to admit that I'm quite happy that the current President has put conservative justices into the Supreme court, seeing as how the pro-life stance is the one thing on which I strongly agree with the Republicans.

[arunma]

Oh, im voting, i vote in the Primaries. Im all about my voting rights.

That's great! Although you're voting for the party that I'd rather not see in office, I think it's more important for everyone to exercise their voting rights. After all, this is supposed to be one of our treasured freedoms, so I hate to see voter apathy.

[JacobHall86]

my "hate" is big government. Welfare is a socialistic practice. I dont like socialism.

[JacobHall86]

You are a better man than me, i would prefer your side to have total apathy. But your right, I would rather everyone turn out, that way we have hte best representive republic possible.

[arunma]

my "hate" is big government. Welfare is a socialistic practice. I dont like socialism.

I'm no more a fan of socialism than you are. But let's remember that not all things are bad merely by association with bad things. The American "red scare" occured well before McCarthyism, and despite this, America adopted a welfare program. So then, America created welfare independent of socialism. In fact, welfare by itself is not a socialist ideal. Rather, socialism (especially as practiced in the former Soviet Union) dictates an artificially controlled economy in which people are assigned career paths and wages. Note that while welfare fights poverty, socialism encourages poverty. After all, in socialist countries such as China, Cuba, and the former Soviet Union, poverty is rampant. But in America, welfare abates poverty. Therefore, I'm not certain why welfare is so commonly associated with socialism.

[arunma]

You are a better man than me, i would prefer your side to have total apathy. But your right, I would rather everyone turn out, that way we have hte best representive republic possible.

My guess is that the Bush-hatred will decrease voter apathy among Democrats this year. Not that I approve of this motivation, since I don't like to see so many people actively hate a fellow Christian such as the President.

[JacobHall86]

I'm no more a fan of socialism than you are. But let's remember that not all things are bad merely by association with bad things. The American "red scare" occured well before McCarthyism, and despite this, America adopted a welfare program. So then, America created welfare independent of socialism. In fact, welfare by itself is not a socialist ideal. Rather, socialism (especially as practiced in the former Soviet Union) dictates an artificially controlled economy in which people are assigned career paths and wages. Note that while welfare fights poverty, socialism encourages poverty. After all, in socialist countries such as China, Cuba, and the former Soviet Union, poverty is rampant. But in America, welfare abates poverty. Therefore, I'm not certain why welfare is so commonly associated with socialism.

Its the redistribution of wealth as teh Govt. sees fit. Thats why its associated with socialism.

[HypoTypoSis]

Its the redistribution of wealth as teh Govt. sees fit.

Unfortunately, there is no alternative; the world, as a whole, is singularly forcing itself in that economic direction.

[sandra8230]

Quote:
for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Matthew 6:21

i am not being judgemental just observant,
if i see someone's car and know how much that car costs can i see where their treasure is
if i see someone's house and the front of the neighborhood states the price range of the houses can i see where their treasure is
:thumbsup:

[sandra8230]

As for capitalism being fair, well I guess "famous last words". Money belongs to God and he can chose to take it away when he wants.


some rich people are definately attached to their money, it's like their best friend or something. I wish those people would lose it all, i think it would do everyone some good if we lived a simple life, like real simple, like jail, or poor african simple. Then pop back into our lives and maybe we'll appreciate what we have and let go of some of the extras. materialism, it has a hold on a lot of people that don't even realize it. And some never will.

[A Brother In Christ]

money is part of the world system where Satan help make it to use....

Satan hates when christians use money to glorify God instead of ones self

[MrJim]

http://www.relationaltithe.com/EmbezzlementPaper.PDF#search=%22embezzlement%20mayhew%22

...another POV

[JacobHall86]

Being rich doesnt make you a bad Christian, to say that rich people should lose their wealth us not at all a Christian attitude.

[mont974x4]

Why are people so quick to judge people that God has blessed with material wealth, as being bad or evil?

We should rejoice with them in their blessing and pray that they handle it righteously.

[arunma]

I'm sure there are wealthy Christians out there who are good stewards of their money. But I've never met one. I have a certain cousin who grew up in a non-Christian household, but who attended a Southern Baptist private school. Back when we were kids, I was a non-Christian, and he would preach the Gospel to me with great fervor, zeal, and love (though being ten at the time, he didn't quite get the theology right). My earliest knowledge of Christ, and the great stories of the Gospel, come from the many late-night conversations we used to have.

Of course, this cousin of mine also happens to have very wealthy parents. My aunt and uncle came here from India with my uncle's college degree and about fifty dollars in their pockets. From that, they became millionaires. Sounds like the America dream, doesn't it? Well, it might be the American dream, but it probably wasn't God's will, because all this wealth made shipwreck of my cousin's faith.

Some time has passed since we were both kids, and now my cousin cares more about his Corvette, his marijuana, and entertaining female friends than he cares about the Lord Jesus. Now it is I who am preaching the Gospel to him, in the hopes that he will once again have the same zeal for Christ that he had before his expensive toys corrupted him. There are quite a few other disfunctions and scandals in this family, and I can trace all of them back to their wealth. Trust me when I say that these people would be much happier if they lived on a modest income.

Again, I'm sure that there are faithful believers who happen to be wealthy. It just seems to me that wealth tends to be more of a stumbling block than an edifying force in Christians' lives. Like Moses' bronze serpent, it can do healing and it can act as an idol.

[mont974x4]

I'm sure there are wealthy Christians out there who are good stewards of their money. But I've never met one. I have a certain cousin who grew up in a non-Christian household, but who attended a Southern Baptist private school. Back when we were kids, I was a non-Christian, and he would preach the Gospel to me with great fervor, zeal, and love (though being ten at the time, he didn't quite get the theology right). My earliest knowledge of Christ, and the great stories of the Gospel, come from the many late-night conversations we used to have.

Of course, this cousin of mine also happens to have very wealthy parents. My aunt and uncle came here from India with my uncle's college degree and about fifty dollars in their pockets. From that, they became millionaires. Sounds like the America dream, doesn't it? Well, it might be the American dream, but it probably wasn't God's will, because all this wealth made shipwreck of my cousin's faith.

Some time has passed since we were both kids, and now my cousin cares more about his Corvette, his marijuana, and entertaining female friends than he cares about the Lord Jesus. Now it is I who am preaching the Gospel to him, in the hopes that he will once again have the same zeal for Christ that he had before his expensive toys corrupted him. There are quite a few other disfunctions and scandals in this family, and I can trace all of them back to their wealth. Trust me when I say that these people would be much happier if they lived on a modest income.

Again, I'm sure that there are faithful believers who happen to be wealthy. It just seems to me that wealth tends to be more of a stumbling block than an edifying force in Christians' lives. Like Moses' bronze serpent, it can do healing and it can act as an idol.



All the more reason we should pray for them...not bash them as so many are want to do.

[JacobHall86]

Why are people so quick to judge people that God has blessed with material wealth, as being bad or evil?

We should rejoice with them in their blessing and pray that they handle it righteously.

Exactly, why are we so jealous of CHristians who are wealthy? I know a couple of people in my church who are wealthy, great stewards of their money. In fact my boss is one of them. He worked his butt of to get where he is now, and people think it should be taken from him because CHristians arent suppose to be rich. Thats insane.

When was the last time a Poor Man gave you a job?

[arunma]

Exactly, why are we so jealous of CHristians who are wealthy? I know a couple of people in my church who are wealthy, great stewards of their money. In fact my boss is one of them. He worked his butt of to get where he is now, and people think it should be taken from him because CHristians arent suppose to be rich. Thats insane.

When was the last time a Poor Man gave you a job?

Well, a poor man has never given me a job. But I once read about a poor woman who did even better:
And he sat down opposite the treasury and watched the people putting money into the offering box. Many rich people put in large sums. And a poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which make a penny. And he called his disciples to him and said to them, "Truly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the offering box. For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on." (St. Mark 12:41-44)

[mont974x4]

Every passage I have found in the NT about giving always comes back to the heart of the giver.....not the amount as the real issue. Last I checked we are not the ones who see mens hearts.

Keep in mind that the rich may continue to get rich because they give so much. Just because they don't give to the church or to other places we see they may be quite generous in other places.

Where did the NT church give? They helped eachother and the poor. They gave to Paul so he could take to other places to meet needs and they gave to Paul to meet his needs when he was unable to meet his own needs.

[JacobHall86]

If the wealthy dont give in accordance to what they are commanded than they are in the wrong, and noone here has defended them. We have defended those who are wealthy and tithe and give in accordance.

[mont974x4]

If the wealthy dont give in accordance to what they are commanded than they are in the wrong, ...

What do you mean by "in accordance to what what they are commanded?

I have found no commendment regarding giving as it applies to the NT church other than we are to help those in need and do so with a cheerful heart.

[JacobHall86]

Tithe.

[mont974x4]

OK,
what's tithe in the NT church?

Does it have to go to the church?
Is it a set amount?

[HypoTypoSis]

OK,
what's tithe in the NT church?

Does it have to go to the church?
Is it a set amount?

No, it is not a set amount, in fact, I don't recall any mention of it in the NT; however, as someone else previously mentioned, it comes back to the heart.

Now, with that in mind, we are reminded of Proverbs 3:9 to give first of our first fruits. This has a couple of interesting "features";

first, whether we give off of the gross or the net it is much like the fact that the state gets their "cut" first in that we learn to live off of what we "have";
second, it puts God first in our lives instead of giving Him of what have "leftover" after we have "lived off of what we have received which, in effect would put ourselves first;
third, it is line with what Paul said, "I have learned in whatsoever state I am in, therewith to be content" (memory paraphrase).

[mont974x4]

Actually the first fruits deals with sacrifice.

The tithe was every 10th and didn't have to be perfect. I find that interesting, since it would mean that if you only have 9 you weren't required to tithe. This allowed for a man to make sure he was providing for his family.

[HypoTypoSis]

Actually the first fruits deals with sacrifice.

--------

The subject is the first fruits of our increases (income); Christ's sacrifice is not the subject herein). Let's keep our focus.

Proverbs 3:9, "Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:"

It says "first fruits, not "last fruits".

--------

The tithe was every 10th and didn't have to be perfect. I find that interesting, since it would mean that if you only have 9 you weren't required to tithe. This allowed for a man to make sure he was providing for his family.

That was OT.

We're in the NT. That ("what's tithe in the NT church?") was the question. (And, fwiw, technically, that has little bearing on today)

Philippians 4:11, "Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content."

[mont974x4]

That was OT.

We're in the NT. That ("what's tithe in the NT church?") was the question. (And, fwiw, technically, that has little bearing on today)

Philippians 4:11, "Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content."

Actually that was my point, the sacrifice and tithe (as is usually still preached) were OT requirements that are not applicable today.

We are still supposed to give...which is why I was asking about tithe in the NT. I wanted to know what everyone else was thinking on the subject.

From what I see we are not required to give to the church, however they did have collections to give to Paul to meet specific needs in other places. They also gave to Paul when he was under house arrest and unable to support himself. They gave to help people in their fellowship with needs and they supported their widows.

[JacobHall86]

Well the word Tithe itself means 10%.

[mont974x4]

true, it does mean a tenth.

This is the only two times I found it in the NT

(Mat 23:23) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye tithe mint and anise and cummin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law, justice, and mercy, and faith: but these ye ought to have done, and not to have left the other undone.
(Luk 11:42) But woe unto you Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and every herb, and pass over justice and the love of God: but these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.


I encourage you all to look at the context as well.

[sandra8230]

yall should look at my first 2 vids in my profile, it has to do with this subject.

[RajunCajun86]

8 "Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, 'How have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings.
9 "You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing Me, the whole nation {of you!}
10 " Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this," says the LORD of hosts, "if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows.
Malachi 3

[JacobHall86]

I dont see any videos in your profile, it might be the filter at school is blocking them. What is the jist of them?

[RajunCajun86]

where are we instructed to change the teachings of the tithe as in OT?

[sandra8230]

I dont see any videos in your profile, it might be the filter at school is blocking them. What is the jist of them?
they are at the bottom, they just show some statistics and some pictures on the matter. they'll make you appreciate what you have. Some people are blind to these things. I know a lot of christians only want to give 10% and that's fine(i think that's all that's required of God right?-to do the bare minimum), but it's still good to know what others go through. They made me cry. And I thought I was poor, but I will never know what it is like to experience poverty like that. Shame on me for ever thinking I have gone without anything. God forgive me.

suggested reading: rich christians in an age of hunger by ronald j. sider

[mont974x4]

where are we instructed to change the teachings of the tithe as in OT?


Where are we commaned in the NT to keep the whole of the OT law?

No one is saying to change those teachings themselves, the application has changed because of the work of Christ.

[RajunCajun86]

the application has changed because of the work of Christ.
where is the application of tithe to be changed?

[edb19]

I admit that I haven't read the entire thread - but the title intrigued me so. . . . . .

Earlier this year we had the privilege of having Pastor Ken Jones (from the White Horse Inn) guest in our pulpit. He attended and participated in the adult ed class also. I know we were talking about Christ as Prophet, Priest and King and what those different offices entail. Most of the discussion has hidden somewhere in the dark recesses of my brain - but I do remember something Pastor Ken said.

He pointed out that in the US we have a "penthouse" view of Christianity and life. Where else would a Christian stand in front of an open refrigerator and complain about nothing to eat or stand in their closet and whine about nothing to wear. Granted there are exceptions - but as a whole, even the poorest in America are wealthy in comparison to the rest of the world.

My pastor recently shared a quote with me regarding the "average Christian." I can't remember all of the details, but it's along the line of the average Christian lives in a 3rd world country, has to worry about where their next meal comes from, has to worry about the government taking away their right to worship (I'll find it later). Anyhow - it was very telling about how very different Christians in the US (the west in general) are compared to Christians worldwide.

edie

[mont974x4]

If you want to discuss how the OT law was changed we should open start a new thread.

I have already posted that I have only found "tithe" 2 times in the NT. Both were relating one incident when Christ was hammering on the Pharisees.

I have already posted what I see as examples from the NT church regarding giving.

What are others seeing?

[JacobHall86]

Sider = Communist. No thanks.

[RajunCajun86]

how has tithing changed?
the references in the NT do not abolish our responsibility to tithe
and a lack of mention in the NT does not indicate that we are to change our monetary tithe as previously instructed

[mont974x4]

I am not advocating to not give at all I am wanting us to look deeper at the NT examples of giving.

Is there evidence that the NT church kept the old ceremonial law? If you keep part you must keep all and will be judged accordingly...sorry the reference escapess me at the moment.


This is where the application changed, not based on specific commands but on looking at the NT examples. The tithe in the OT was to care for those in need. I have already posted how the NT church met that need.

The moral law (Ten Commandments) do apply as they are all (except for the sabbath) directly commanded again in the NT.

We must keep in mind the two greatest commandments, on which all the rest hang.

[JPPT1974]

We must keep in mind that those
Two great commandments that you
Brought to a point where the other
Eight fall into place! Care again for those
In need is like doing stuff for your Lord!
Keep that in mind!

[sandra8230]

If someone has enough money to live well and sees a brother or sister in need but shows no compassion-how can God's love be in that person? 1 john 3:17

[JacobHall86]

Most Americans have enough to meet their needs,but spend that money on wants instead.

[mont974x4]

I am reminded of the woman who annointed Christ with perfume and the disciples rebuked her because they thought it was a waste.

She made a personal choice to honor Christ in a personal way that they did not understand or agree with at the time.

We must be careful how we observe the actions of others.

[HypoTypoSis]

I am reminded of the woman who annointed Christ with perfume and the disciples rebuked her because they thought it was a waste.

She made a personal choice to honor Christ in a personal way that they did not understand or agree with at the time.

We must be careful how we observe the actions of others.


Matthew 26:7 There came unto him a woman having an alabaster box of very precious ointment, and poured it on his head, as he sat at meat.

Matthew 26:8 But when his disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste?

Matthew 26:9 For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor.

Matthew 26:10 When Jesus understood it, he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me.

Matthew 26:11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.

Matthew 26:14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,

Matthew 26:15 And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you?

[Jim1927]

I think the Old and New Testaments teach about our responsibilities in giving, but they also teach fiscal management. It goes beyond the tithe. The tithe is the Lord's, and then there are personal offerings over and above the tithe...the tithe is minimum.

Then there is the question about sharing wealth. Am I being responsible by sharing my wealth with those who refuse to manage what they have? If you had lived through the Depression years, you would understand this. Even the wealthy had nothing. In England, we had ration books and all the money in the world couldn't buy more than what that ration book allowed.

Am I to be responsible for the person who has 12 credit cards maxed out?

Cheers,

Jim

[sandra8230]

Most Americans have enough to meet their needs,but spend that money on wants instead.

What neighborhood did you grow up in? I used to live in a place that was 500$ a month for an effiency including electric. It was not a nice place at all. (there's drug dealers for neighbors and loud rap music all hours of the day and night, cops in and out, people arguing and getting in fights, people outside high and drunk). I was living on 800$ a month I made at burger king and I have a 23 month old son. That's why I had to go to for my cna. But even after I get it I should be making $1200 a month after taxes. So if I go back into that dirty ghettoy place that's
1200-500(rent& electric)=700.
Now there's car insurance, 700-120=580,
gas 580-100=480,
phone 480-50=430,
and of course offering 430-120=$310
310$ left for food, bathroom & household necessities, new clothes or toys for my son, car maintenance, daycare(which runs about 70$ a wk/280 a month), and fun money (lol-yeah right like i'd have any money left for fun). Also I have 1 credit card payment which was 2200$ spent at pepboys to fix my car and 200 spent when i worked at burger king and couldn't make ends meet. So yes Jim1927 I do have a credit card bill, 1-but i needed to fix my car. To me, job corps is saving my life (financially), but yet I will always be living check by check, barely making ends meet, and never be able to save money up for my son's college or car, or save money for if my car dies and I need a new one, or save money to move into a place that at least has 1 bedroom. That's why the place I'm going to live is right next to a daycare center and the place i plan to work. I have a bicyle with a carseat thingy on it. And my car isn't that reliable even after pepboys-so I'll probably be using my bike soon. Also, this budget I've listed-doesn't include christmas, birthdays, vacations or any other special things. I'll never be able to buy a tv or computer, let alone cable or internet :(

Am I living beyond my means? Anybody have some suggestions to help me better work my budget?

[RajunCajun86]

^ how many hours do you work a week? (just curious)

[sandra8230]

^ how many hours do you work a week? (just curious)
that's 36-40 hrs. burger king & publix don't budge with the hours and won't risk overtime so sometimes you have to put up with 36.

But yeah, i think I know where you are going with this, second job, but the only problem with that is finding a babysitter. daycare's are only open 6-6 m-f mostly. I'm just so untrusting with babysitters because I had a bad experience once. I dropped my son off to a new babysitter and went there during my lunch hour and no one was there. I did not give them permission to take my son anywhere. So I called from the bathroom later at work and still no answer. I sped to their house after work and yanked my son out of there so quick and never went back. I've had 2 jobs before I know I can do it again-I just remember being tired, I'd like to have the energy to take my son to the park. I guess I really don't have any choices though-my budget(last post) shows that. It's just unfortunate because my son cries everytime I leave him(he doesnt understand) and it breaks my heart.

[arunma]

some of yall were talking about how poor people are lazy and rich people shouldn't have to take responsibility for other's stupidity.

In my experience with rich people, it's the rich who tend to be lazy. As with most things, there are exceptions. But a lot of rich people seem like individuals who tie hard burdens to the poor, but who do not lift a finger themselves to bear it.

[Jim1927]

Sandra, I don't get it. Where is your husband in this picture? What does he contribute to your living?

Cheers,

Jim

[sandra8230]

Sandra, I don't get it. Where is your husband in this picture? What does he contribute to your living?

Cheers,

Jim
it's a long long story. I'll PM it to you because you asked.

I don't mind being low income-I really don't, I'm not complaining about my situation at all, nor would i ask for charity ever. I just wanted to show the actual numbers of how some people live-for the rich who don't understand.

[JPPT1974]

If you ask me, I would rather be poor
And happy than to be rich and miserable
Just my two cents in
Would rather be working than being lazy.

[Jim1927]

Not all were rich from the beginning. My first pastorate, in 1945, paid me £5. a month and they supplied me with a bicycle and residence. My suits and shoes came from the mortician's shop (funeral parlour),,some even fit.

I will confess that I never asked for people to fill my needs, but the Lord never left me begging for bread or shelter.

God bless you, Sandra...Remember, the Lord is able, even when we think we have hit the wall once too often.

Cheers,

Jim

[HypoTypoSis]

Am I being responsible by sharing my wealth with those who refuse to manage what they have?
Very good point!

No, you would not be responsible in that instance.

If they want to waste and mismanage their funds (read: their life) away we are to let them have their own free willed choice.

Perhaps this, also, is part of that 'send them back into the world and to Satan' bit until they have learned their priorities theme.

[JacobHall86]

I am all for charities, But I am against the Government telling me that part of my income belongs to someone else.

[arunma]

I am all for charities, But I am against the Government telling me that part of my income belongs to someone else.

I don't mean to sound rude or adversarial (I genuinely strive for Christian love in this discussion). But isn't that a lot like saying that you're against abortion, but don't want the government telling you what to do with your uterus? I am for social welfare for the same reason that I am pro-life: because if a certain course of action is just, then it ought to be encouraged by the government through legislation. I use the abortion issue because this is something on which most Christians agree.

[JacobHall86]

The two are nothing alike.

I have no say in where the money goes that is stolen from me at gunpoint by the government. However, if I had that money to give to charity, I could give to one that I approve of, one that would make people work instead of giving them money.

A helping hand, not a hand out.

Small government is the better option.

[JacobHall86]

And its not charity if it is taken from you.

[mont974x4]

Being Libertarian I believe in a truly limited government.

I believe in helping others...not having the government force me to help others. I'd rather have a personal impact and connection so I know the money is really helping and the person being helped knows there is a real person available for more than just a check. Meet physical AND spiritual needs


abortion...the feds overstepped the constitutional bounds. I would abide by whatever the state (people) voted. I would prefer no law on the issue and believe we should reach and minister to individuals.

stem cells is another good one..I can;t figure out why people want to waste more money on embryonic stem cells when adult cells have been used on something like 80 health issues and avoids any ethical issues.

Of course, I don't beleive the government has any business being in schools, health care, or business


The Church shares much of the blame. We should care for people in a biblical way not expect the government to do it.

[arunma]

The two are nothing alike.

I have no say in where the money goes that is stolen from me at gunpoint by the government. However, if I had that money to give to charity, I could give to one that I approve of, one that would make people work instead of giving them money.

A helping hand, not a hand out.

Small government is the better option.

I think they are similar issues, since both are issues of social justice. Regarding the taking of money at gunpoint, it sounds like you are referring to taxes in general. But it extends beyond welfare. For example, if I don't believe in the Iraq War, am I permitted to object that my tax dollar goes in part to the defense budget? I do not have the right to object.

Since we live in a Democracy, we play a role in lawmaking. Since we have to pay taxes anyway, we ought to create a welfare system that best benefits the poor (as you say, a hand up instead of a hand out). For example, you may choose to vote for candidates who support college scholarships for the poor instead of other forms of welfare. But I think we ought to enforce charity by taxes, so that we can force even unbelievers to help the poor.

[mont974x4]

The problem is the welfare system is unbiblical.

While we have a responsibility to help those in need...those being helped also have a responsibility. Even the widows had to meet certain criteria before the church stepped in to help them.



We are not free to force unbelievers to do anything. That would be un-Christ-like.

[arunma]

The problem is the welfare system is unbiblical.

While we have a responsibility to help those in need...those being helped also have a responsibility. Even the widows had to meet certain criteria before the church stepped in to help them.

Secular welfare has restrictions on who can recieve aid as well. As I understand it, recipients need to have a certain number of kids, and be in a sufficiently dire need. It may be prudent to change the requirements, but the idea of welfare itself comes from the Bible (as per your allusion to the system of support for widows).

We are not free to force unbelievers to do anything. That would be un-Christ-like.

But aren't we doing this when we abridge the reproductive rights of unbelievers (I say this somewhat sardonically, since I don't believe that reproductive "rights" include the right to murder).

[mont974x4]

I said it was unbiblical because I see no evidence of that being the governments responsibility from the Bible. The poor are to be cared for by God's children not the government. I see examples of provision during disasters such as famine but not normal day to day support being handled by the government...of course that was other nations. The tithe was for the poor.

As far as I understand it.

Actually I would be pro-choice (since our relationship with Him is based on a choice not being forced to serve Him) but since Roe V Wade has led to abortion being used as birth control I can't hold that stance in good conscience nor can I support a politician that supports it. Sadly the pro-choice ideal really has become pro-abortion in practice. (We support a Christian based pregnancy center here instead of Planned Parenthood and my wife and I are praying about adopting a child)

[HypoTypoSis]

But aren't we doing this when we abridge the reproductive rights of unbelievers
Reproductive rights ends the moment they "played" and one got pregnant. The issue, rightfully, now turns to the rights of the child they have created between them. Their rights ended at their child's conception. It is now time to "pay for playing".

Their whole reasoning revolves around not wanting to accept responsibility for their actions. Their whole logic is replete of lack of self control and full of selfish animal wantonness.

What can you expect of them? Afterall, that is exactly all they are, base evil natural animalistic man lacking any spirit or spiritual guidance and morals from above. Their very father is the father of lies, the prince of the power of the air, and they unquestioningly believe everything he tells them.

They are, simply put, akin to all the other animals they emulate. And they are happy in the evil they do which is why they see no reason to humble themselves and submit their pride and will to that of a God they cannot see beyond the one they see every morning in their mirror.

[JacobHall86]

Abortion is with willful murder of a Child.

Welfare is not. The two are nto at