debate cessationism with me [Archive]

SpiritPsalmist

23rd January 2003, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by hawk
My whole thing is that cessationism is nowhere in the Bible.  When we read the Bible, cessationism is not a natural inference to make.  It is as Jack Deere put it:

 

No one ever just picked up the Bible, started reading, and then came to the conclusion that God was not doing signs and wonders anymore and that the gifts of the Holy Spirit had passed away. The doctrine of cessationism did not originate in a careful study of the Scriptures. The doctrine of cessationism originated in <I>experience</I>. -Jack Deere

This is so true.  Some have concluded that since they have not experienced it then it does not happen.  :scratch:

So technically, by their experience of no experience, no one should have an experience, because that has to mean that something is wrong.  And it could'nt possibly be with them . . .the one's with no experience. 

If the Bible says something is supposed to happen, then it's supposed to happen.  If it doesn't, well, I believe God anyway. 

The Bible says, blessed are those who believe without seeing.  I have seen a lot, but what I have not seen, if the Bible says it, I still choose to believe it.

hawk

23rd January 2003, 04:12 PM

cool signature by the way quaffer

dignitized

23rd January 2003, 04:31 PM

The problem with believing in miracles is that there are way too many people out there that are either frauds and sham artists or take things to the extremes. Yes “I believe in Miracles” - like the book by Katheryn Coleman ;), but I do not believe in the “word of faith” movement.

SpiritPsalmist

23rd January 2003, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by hawk
cool signature by the way quaffer

Thanks hawk.  Welcome to the forums. :angel:

SpiritPsalmist

23rd January 2003, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by Br. Max
The problem with believing in miracles is that there are way too many people out there that are either frauds and sham artists or take things to the extremes. Yes “I believe in Miracles” - like the book by Katheryn Coleman ;), but I do not believe in the “word of faith” movement.

You're right Br Max, however that is not a reason for anyone to  not believe what God says.  I believe the term "word of faith" is greatly misunderstood.

I'm reminded of that movie "Far and Away" (I think), with Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman.  Anyway, at the end they were claiming land.  The government had spelled out for all the people gathered there where the boundries were and what they had to do to claim their piece of land.  They had to race to the spot they wanted and then get their claim stick(whatever it's called :)) into the ground before anyone else.  When they did that the land was theirs.

That's kinda the same way with God.  He's spelled out the boundries for us.  Spiritually, physically, and emotionally we have promises made to us by God Himself.  He promises salvation to all who call upon the name of the Lord.  That's a claim He made, so therefore I have the right to claim it too.

He promises healing to all who pray the prayer of faith.  He made the claim, so therefore I have the right to claim it too.

He promises to make me whole (spiritually, physically, emotionally), therefore, I have the right to claim it too.

He does NOT promise me an expensive car.  He does NOT promise me a mansion here on earth.  So while I may desire them, I can ask but I would not claim it in the same way that I claim healing (physically, spiritually, and emotionally). 

Jesus paid the full price for my salvation on the cross.  He died so that I could have life, not only in Heaven but here on earth.  And it said it was for an "abundant life".  Not one of spiritual sickness, physical sickness, or mental sickness.

I may not see my healing here on earth but I will at least die believing.

Kathryn Kuhlman was a great woman of God.  I had the priviledge of attending one of her services at the Shrine in Los Angeles.  Yes, there were many problems in her life, but there are many problems in all of our lives.  And we need to allow God to work through us in spite of those problems, just as she did.

Be blessed Bro Max.  I read a lot of your post and enjoy them. 

Quaffer

SUNSTONE

23rd January 2003, 08:12 PM

I have seen so many healings, and perhaps miracles(because they are different).

Just go in answered prayers for some of the many I have seen and done, by the grace of God, through faith. I think that the Lord is guiding me into casting out demons now, but I haven't done one yet.

If you have the gift of teaching, how can you dismiss the other gifts as well. Prophecy, healings, tongues, miracles, and so on. Paul even said to desire spiritual gifts, especially so that you may prophecy.

When I talk to people about what they would like to do in a ministry, they say preach. I myself don't want to be a preacher, I saw that scripture, and I prayed that I would be a prophet. Prophet Sunstone :) that has a nice ring to it.

But that is up to God, and right now I am still a disciple, with much to learn.

dignitized

23rd January 2003, 08:30 PM

quaffer: Yes God can and will heal, but let us not forget that suffering is not only good for the soul, but profitable to the spirit :) Some times God does not heal. He does so for His own reasons. At times, he wants us to seek Him more, at other times he is waiting for the proper moment, still other times, he does not heal because the affliction is working to his glory. I have seen people destroyed because some word of faith healer told them that they did not have enough faith to get healed. :sigh:

Apologist

23rd January 2003, 09:34 PM

Originally posted by SUNSTONE

When I talk to people about what they would like to do in a ministry, they say preach. I myself don't want to be a preacher, I saw that scripture, and I prayed that I would be a prophet. Prophet Sunstone :) that has a nice ring to it.

Sunstone,

To prophecy IS to preach.

Apologist

23rd January 2003, 09:38 PM

Andrew

23rd January 2003, 09:51 PM

Yes God can and will heal, but let us not forget that suffering is not only good for the soul, but profitable to the spirit

I think that is one of the main misunderstandings regarding WOF. Suffering for the Christian. People think that WOF people dont believe in suffering. we do, but we believe in the Biblical NT type of suffering -- ie persecution for bearing the name of Jesus. not sickness, that's not in God's will.

read Peter and Paul's description of their sufferings and what they teach abt suffering -- it always has to do with persecution for being a Christian and preaching the gospel. nothing to do with sickness.

To prophecy IS to preach.

Then why did the Holy Spirit Bible use 2 diff words if its one and the same thing?

Andrew

23rd January 2003, 09:58 PM

I heard a girl call into the Bible Answer Man broadcast today who almost died because of the WoF teachings she was caught up in.
She went to a crusade and was "healed" of her diabetes she was told.
Quite some time later she went to her doctor and was told that her pancreas was not working at all and if she didn't use her insulin she would die. It breaks my heart to hear that people are duped like this.

no preacher will tell the person to stop medication. that's illegal cos you are then practising medicine without a licence. they wld always tell you to continue taking your medication and going to your docs until he certifies you cured! so in a sense it is the girls own foolishness. no healing evangelist I know tells you to go off medicine just like that. that's dumb.

Apologist

23rd January 2003, 10:30 PM

Originally posted by Andrew
I think that is one of the main misunderstandings regarding WOF. Suffering for the Christian. People think that WOF people dont believe in suffering. we do, but we believe in the Biblical NT type of suffering -- ie persecution for bearing the name of Jesus. not sickness, that's not in God's will.

read Peter and Paul's description of their sufferings and what they teach abt suffering -- it always has to do with persecution for being a Christian and preaching the gospel. nothing to do with sickness.

That is not what scripture teaches. Nowhere does the bible declare that sickness is not God's will. In 2 Tim 4:19-20 Paul states:

"Greet Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus. 20 Erastus stayed in Corinth, but Trophimus I have left in Miletus sick."

Why did Paul leave Miletus sick? Couldn't Paul have easily healed him?

As I stated in another post that WoF proponents disagree with: It depends on whether it is God's will for us to be sick, healthy, poor, rich, etc.

We need to pray as Jesus did: "Thy will be done" and not "My will be done."

Then why did the Holy Spirit Bible use 2 diff words if its one and the same thing?

You misunderstand me. The word 'Prophecy' can mean to foretell as well as forthtell. It depends on the context.

Andrew

23rd January 2003, 11:36 PM

That is not what scripture teaches. Nowhere does the bible declare that sickness is not God's will.

Why in the world wld Christ take on our pains and sicknesses if God wanted some of us sick (Isa 53:4)?? Why in the world wld God annoint Jesus to heal the sick if it was also God's will for people to be sick?? Why in the world did Jesus heal all the sick who came to him in faith if it was God's will to make some sick? Why is the world is one of God's redemptive names I AM THE LORD THAT HEALETH THEE when he is supposed to be I am the Lord who makes you sick at the same time???

In 2 Tim 4:19-20 Paul states:"Greet Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus. 20 Erastus stayed in Corinth, but Trophimus I have left in Miletus sick."

o please. if I say, :"my wife cant come to church tonite bcos she's sick at home, so i left her sick at home". Do you then go on to preach a doctrine that says God wants people sick???

[quote]You misunderstand me. The word 'Prophecy' can mean to foretell as well as forthtell.

BY THE INSPIRATION of the Holy Spirit unto comfort, exhortation and edification. so its not preaching.

We need to pray as Jesus did: "Thy will be done" and not "My will be done."

EXACTLY what WOF is all abt! Find out what is God's will revealed in the Word {WORD}. Then line up your prayers, words and actions with God's will {FAITH IN ACTION}.

so the problem for you is that you need to first see that healing is God's will, and you need to see it in the Word, dont wait for an angel to split your ceiling and come down to tell you. even if he did, he'd just quote to you from the Word.

Apologist

24th January 2003, 01:04 AM

Originally posted by Andrew
Why in the world wld Christ take on our pains and sicknesses if God wanted some of us sick (Isa 53:4)??

This is a misinterpretation on the part of WoF theology.
Isaiah is talking about spiritual healing, not physical if you read it in context.

Why in the world wld God annoint Jesus to heal the sick if it was also God's will for people to be sick?? Why in the world did Jesus heal all the sick who came to him in faith if it was God's will to make some sick?

Jesus' healing ministry was to prove who He was, it was not a blueprint for us to follow. I think we may have a misunderstanding of the word 'will' here. What God *allows* to happen for His own purposes and what His *will* is are two different things. Yes it is God's will that we all are healthy, etc. but that will be actualized in the new Heaven and new Earth, not here and now. The creation is still cursed and so the results are still evident of that curse which include disease, and death.

Why is the world is one of God's redemptive names I AM THE LORD THAT HEALETH THEE when he is supposed to be I am the Lord who makes you sick at the same time???

That title is showing God's sovereignty. He alone does healing not anyone else.

God told Moses in Exodus 4:10-11:

Then Moses said to the Lord, “O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither before nor since You have spoken to Your servant; but I am slow of speech and slow of tongue.”
11 So the Lord said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I, the Lord?

If God want us all healed why does He create some deaf? Or blind?

Andrew

24th January 2003, 02:18 AM

Isaiah is talking about spiritual healing, not physical if you read it in context.

It is you who shld check the context. It is physical healing, not spiritual healing!

Isaiah 53:4,5
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs [sicknesses], and carried our sorrows [pains]: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

The original Hebrew words for "griefs" and "sorrows" are actually "sicknesses" and "pains" (physical and mental) respectively (see Strong's numbers 02483 and 04341). The translation is thus unfortunate. ask any Hebrew scholar or Messianic Jew.

Some have insisted that Isaiah 53:4 has to do with spiritual healing only. But let the Bible interpret the Bible. The verses are quoted again in Matthew 8:17 and 1 Peter 2:24. How does the Holy Spirit translate Isaiah 53:4 in Matthew 8:15? He says, "Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses", implying physical healing.

* Matthew 8:15-17
15 And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.
16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

Moreover, the immediate context of Matthew 8:17 (verses 15 and 16) proves that the verse is referring to physical healing. This is not to say that spiritual healing is excluded as demons were cast out too.

Jesus' healing ministry was to prove who He was, it was not a blueprint for us to follow.

Good Lord, you dont follow Christ? Why be Christ-ian then? I guess you dont go around sharing the Gospel either or helping the poor. Jesus said Greater works than these shall you do. Jesus is the exact image of God. You want to know what God is like, look at Jesus! Jesus himself said he who has seen me has seen the Father. I am in He and He in Me. etc etc. So if one facet of the Father is to put sickness on his children, then Jesus really missed out on that by not reflecting that in his earthly ministry!

Yes it is God's will that we all are healthy, etc. but that will be actualized in the new Heaven and new Earth, not here and now.

Hello, thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven! Jesus came to give us abundant life not an abundant after life. btw pls provide scriptures for your theology.

Is this suppose ot happen on earth or in heaven? of cse on earth!

Ex 23:25 And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.
Deu 28: 9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:

btw: why wld anyone need healing or prosperity blessings in heaven?? We have new imperishable bodies and walk on streets of gold.

That title is showing God's sovereignty. He alone does healing not anyone else.

excuse me, the church is the arm of God. God's not sending another Jesus to come heal the sick for you. He told the church to go preach the Gospel to the ends of the earth, to lay hands on the sick etc. The title has nothing to do with God's sovereignity. dont read something that's not there into it. It simply and clearly says I am the Lord the Heals You. You either humbly accept that or reject it!

hawk

24th January 2003, 02:25 AM

Andrew is doing a great job defending some misconceptions about miraculous gifts and healing, I just want to comment on one thing that was said.

 To prophecy IS to preach

The difference between preaching and prophecy is clear from the New Testament.  Preaching is expounding upon, clarifying, and applying previous revelation; prophecy is declaring a present revelation.  Note that Paul is careful to make a distinction between teaching and prophecy.

Ephesians 4
11   And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets , and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers ,

Romans 12
6   Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy , according to the proportion of his faith;
7   if service, in his serving; or he who teaches , in his teaching;

Here are some texts that show what the gift of prophecy looks like in the New Testament.

I Corinthians 14:
24   But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all;
25   the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.

. . .

29   Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment.
30   But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent.
31   For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted;

. . .

10   As we were staying there for some days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea.
11   And coming to us, he took Paul's belt and bound his own feet and hands, and said, "This is what the Holy Spirit says: 'In this way the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.'"

Is this what the typical protestant sermon looks like?!?

Prophecy and teaching are both very important but they are not the same.

SpiritPsalmist

24th January 2003, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by Br. Max
quaffer: Yes God can and will heal, but let us not forget that suffering is not only good for the soul, but profitable to the spirit :) Some times God does not heal. He does so for His own reasons. At times, he wants us to seek Him more, at other times he is waiting for the proper moment, still other times, he does not heal because the affliction is working to his glory. I have seen people destroyed because some word of faith healer told them that they did not have enough faith to get healed. :sigh:

Bro Max,

I personally did not have enough faith to see the manifestation of the healing I believe I had.  I personally, had the choice to either let that knowledge of lack of faith destroy me or spur me on to pull myself up out of my self-pity party and do what I had to do in the natural.  Then, continue to walk in the way that I believe God says and let God work on my faith.

I can make faith-based decisions only on what "I" believe.  NOT, what someone else believes.  If my faith is not strong enough then I might as well admit it and just do what I need to do to help it grow.

I have been to the meetings of some of the WOF teachers criticized and have not heard one of them tell anyone to stop taking their medicine.  I have, however, heard the very opposite.  I heard them say, "go to your dr and get your healing verified before you stop taking your medicine".  

I had many people lay hands on me and pray for healing.  I believe the Word of God, says I am/was healed by His stripes.  But somewhere in me, there was doubt.  I was overcome by what was happening physically, and that was pretty much all I could see. 

Yes, I beat myself up for awhile, but it was my decision to beat myself up.  I felt that I was a dissappointment to my church and my Pastors.  But they were not the one's who told me that lie.  The enemy was the one who told me that lie.  And I chose to believe it.

Finely, I came to my senses, repented for listening to the devil and got back on track.  I did what I had to do in the natural and I'm continuing to do what I have to do in the spiritual.

I still have other medical issues.  I believe, according to the Word of God, I am totally healed.  I still take medicine because according to the doctors reports (and she believes healing is for today too) my body has not yet manifested that healing.  And that's OK. 

Just because I don't see the manifestation does not mean that God is not willing.  Yes, it will happen in His time. But in the meantime, I still believe I am healed.  He said so.

If we were never sick, we would never know healing.  If we never knew poverty, we would never know plenty.  Paul claimed he had lived in poverty and plenty.

I, like Andrew, do not consider myself to be WOF but my church does teach some of the things they teach.  I don't believe it just because they teach it.  I believe it, because I've been convinced, by reading the Word for myself and seeing the operation of it in others and in my life.

 

SUNSTONE

24th January 2003, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by Apologist

God told Moses in Exodus 4:10-11:

Then Moses said to the Lord, “O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither before nor since You have spoken to Your servant; but I am slow of speech and slow of tongue.”
11 So the Lord said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I, the Lord?

If God want us all healed why does He create some deaf? Or blind?

The answer to that last question, came from Jesus. People asked Him, what sin did the crippled man do, or what sin did his parents do, to make him crippled(I think it was a crippled person)? Jesus said it was neither, but he was made like that so that God would be glorified through healing him. Now I looked for the verse but couldn't find it, some help please. :help:

Lazerus also was sick and Jesus said, he is sick not unto death, but so that God will be glorified through the Son. (not exact words).

1. What is the gift of healing?

2. What is the gift of miracles?

Mark 16:18   "...they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

 

dignitized

24th January 2003, 04:55 PM

Lets not forget that Moses was a stutterer-erer ;) and God never took that from him. When I was a child I stuttered but now I do not - Moses never stopped. It kept him humble. Often times we are afflicted for our souls sakes. :) Not all afflictions are ones we need to be heal of or that God will heal us of.

SpiritPsalmist

24th January 2003, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by Br. Max
Lets not forget that Moses was a stutterer-erer ;) and God never took that from him. When I was a child I stuttered but now I do not - Moses never stopped. It kept him humble. Often times we are afflicted for our souls sakes. :) Not all afflictions are ones we need to be heal of or that God will heal us of.

Where does it say he NEVER stopped?  There are many verses of him speaking quite eloquently.  :D

dignitized

24th January 2003, 06:20 PM

quaffer? There are verses which record his words quite eliquently - a big difference. :) I do believe that Scripture states that Arron often spoke for moses to the people - Perhaps thats what you are thinking of. :) I know of no evidence which claims he stopped. :shrug: I believe that Jewish tradition maintians that he did not. :)

God bless

Andrew

24th January 2003, 10:05 PM

Lets not forget that Moses was a stutterer-erer and God never took that from him. When I was a child I stuttered but now I do not - Moses never stopped. It kept him humble. Often times we are afflicted for our souls sakes. Not all afflictions are ones we need to be heal of or that God will heal us of.

that is simply using experiences to build a doctrine and talking as if Jesus did not die and rise again.

so since the King Paul preached to rejected the Gospel, do we then conclude God wants some to go to hell??

JUST BECOS WE SEE SOMEONE SICK OR DYING WHETHER IN THE BIBLE OR IN YOUR SURROUNDING DOES NOT NEGATE THE TRUTH THAT GOD WANTS US HEALTHY AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, THAT JESUS ALSO BORE OUR SICKNESSES AND PAINS (BESIDES OUR SINS) ON THE CROSS.

We do not throw away the Gospel and start telling people that God wants some people to go to hell or remain condemned simply becos we dont see all sinners being saved at a gospel rally.

Apologist

24th January 2003, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by Andrew
It is you who shld check the context. It is physical healing, not spiritual healing!

Isaiah 53:4,5
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs [sicknesses], and carried our sorrows [pains]: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

You are correct, verse 4 is talking about physical healing, verse 5 is talkng about spiritual healing.

Christ's atonement made provision for healing but it is not guaranteed.

Good Lord, you dont follow Christ? Why be Christ-ian then? I guess you dont go around sharing the Gospel either or helping the poor. Jesus said Greater works than these shall you do. Jesus is the exact image of God. You want to know what God is like, look at Jesus! Jesus himself said he who has seen me has seen the Father. I am in He and He in Me. etc etc. So if one facet of the Father is to put sickness on his children, then Jesus really missed out on that by not reflecting that in his earthly ministry!

Of course I believe in sharing the gospel and helping the poor.

When Jesus said we would do "greater works" I believe he was talking about preaching the gospel not healings.

Jesus is the exact image of God. You want to know what God is like, look at Jesus! Jesus himself said he who has seen me has seen the Father. I am in He and He in Me. etc etc. So if one facet of the Father is to put sickness on his children, then Jesus really missed out on that by not reflecting that in his earthly ministry!

Yes, Jesus is God I agree, but I did not say that God "put" sickness on his children. I said He allows it.

Hello, thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven! Jesus came to give us abundant life not an abundant after life. btw pls provide scriptures for your theology.

That is a nice example of biblical eisegesis. Where do you find in the Lord's prayer that we should all be healed?
What is abundant life? The bible does not promise healing in any way, shape or form.

Ex 23:25 And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.

Why do you quote old testament scriptures to back up your claims?
These are promises to Israel under a theocracy and are not guaranteed to us also.

btw: why wld anyone need healing or prosperity blessings in heaven?? We have new imperishable bodies and walk on streets of gold.

I did not say we would need healing or prosperity in heaven, I said that the promises God has made about these things will be actualized in the next life.

If we have healings promised here and now then why do faith teachers wear glasses, have toupee's and have false teeth? Let's be realistic here.

Apologist

24th January 2003, 10:25 PM

Originally posted by SUNSTONE
[B]The answer to that last question, came from Jesus. People asked Him, what sin did the crippled man do, or what sin did his parents do, to make him crippled(I think it was a crippled person)? Jesus said it was neither, but he was made like that so that God would be glorified through healing him. Now I looked for the verse but couldn't find it, some help please. :help:

That is bad biblical interpretation. The disciples thought that a sin caused this person to be born blind and Jesus was correcting them.
Jesus did not say that people are born this way so that God can heal them all.

Apologist

24th January 2003, 10:29 PM

Originally posted by Andrew

JUST BECOS WE SEE SOMEONE SICK OR DYING WHETHER IN THE BIBLE OR IN YOUR SURROUNDING DOES NOT NEGATE THE TRUTH THAT GOD WANTS US HEALTHY AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, THAT JESUS ALSO BORE OUR SICKNESSES AND PAINS (BESIDES OUR SINS) ON THE CROSS.

[/B]

I agree that God wants us healthy IF that is His purpose.

We need to understand that God allows afflictions of differing kinds to come into our lives to mold us. We are molded in the cauldron of adversity, not in the abundance of prosperity!

sbbqb7n16

24th January 2003, 11:18 PM

Moses a stutterer-- God wanted to heal that, but Moses wouldn't let Him, God wouldn't force good speech patterns (or healing) on anyone...

See Exodus 4:12-13
"Now go; I will help you speak and will teach you what to say." But Moses said, "O Lord, please send someone else to do it."

We can do any miraculous gift that Jesus did, including heal people... provided we have faith that HE is able to do it...

-See John 14:12
"I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father."
-and Matthew 9:22
"'Take heart daughter,' he said 'your faith has healed you.'"

God wants us to be healed physically and spiritually...

See 3 John 2
"Dear friend, I pray that you may enjoy good health and that all may go well with you, even as your soul is getting along well."

HOWEVER

All this should be done for the glory of God, not for the selfish desires of the believer...

See John 7:18
"He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him."

Those are my thoughts on the matters brought up here.... and about the dude that Paul left there sick... maybe that guy just didn't have enough faith? We don't know why, but we can't disclaim everyone from recieving healing just because one man was left by Paul sick somewhere. God gave Paul a reason for why the thorn was left in his side... maybe God gave that guy a reason? We don't know. But anything we say on the situation is just more arguing... so TRUST GOD! and Have a great day!

Andrew

25th January 2003, 12:29 AM

I agree that God wants us healthy IF that is His purpose.

Apologist, you still dont get it. His purpose or will regarding health and healing or even prosperity is already revealed in his Word. He has already stated in his Word clearly what His will is regarding healing and prosperity. That is what I'm trying to tell you.

Once that is settled in our hearts, then there is no longer the question of whether it is his will to heal or not in a particular case. God has made his will known and he is no respector of persons. There are no more IFs.

again your statement is like: "I agree that God wants us saved IF that is His purpose."

you see the sin issue and salvation for mankind settled forever at the cross and you read of it in the Word.

healing evangelists see the sickness issue and healing for mankind settled forever at the cross and read of it in the Word.

Apologist

25th January 2003, 12:30 AM

Originally posted by sbbqb7n16

We can do any miraculous gift that Jesus did, including heal people... provided we have faith that HE is able to do it...

Do you really believe that? Jesus raised people from the dead, gave the blind sight and restored severed limbs.

Can you name one documented case of this happening in our time?

.... and about the dude that Paul left there sick... maybe that guy just didn't have enough faith?

This is what faith teachers say all the time and it is absolutely false.

Jesus said that even the faith of a mustard seed can accomplish great things, so having even the slightest amount of faith should heal someone easily.

Andrew

25th January 2003, 12:33 AM

Do you really believe that? Jesus raised people from the dead, gave the blind sight and restored severed limbs.Can you name one documented case of this happening in our time?

I can point you to numerous books/VCDs with documented accounts of such miracles. but my concern is that you will simply brush them off as hoaxes, scams etc, without even wanting to read those books/accounts first.

people in this forum have even given their testimonies of healings, but i'm afraid you'll just brush them off as liars or con artists.

Apologist

25th January 2003, 12:35 AM

Originally posted by Andrew
Apologist, you still dont get it. His purpose or will regarding health and healing or even prosperity is already revealed in his Word. He has already stated in his Word clearly what His will is regarding healing and prosperity. That is what I'm trying to tell you.

Then why are people with great faith still in wheelchairs?

Why are there people of great faith that are still blind?

Why do we still die?

And don't tell me it's because we don't have enough faith as that is totally untrue.

Andrew

25th January 2003, 12:36 AM

again, you are going by experiences. You are letting what you SEE in the natural interpret scripture for you.

Apoloigist, I'll answer your question if you can tell me why there are people who are still not saved, or Christians who go around sin conscious.

Apologist

25th January 2003, 12:37 AM

Originally posted by Andrew
I can point you to numerous books/VCDs with documented accounts of such miracles. but my concern is that you will simply brush them off as hoaxes, scams etc, without even wanting to read those books/accounts first.

people in this forum have even given their testimonies of healings, but i'm afraid you'll just brush them off as liars or con artists.

Well, CRI has been looking for factual evidences like this for years.

Maybe they should be told.

Benny Hinn had supposed facts also but he was shown to be making it up when pressed for documentation.

Apologist

25th January 2003, 12:40 AM

Originally posted by Andrew
again, you are going by experiences. You are letting what you SEE in the natural interpret scripture for you.

Apoloigist, I'll answer your question if you can tell me why there are people who are still not saved, or Christians who go around sin conscious.

There are people not saved because they love their sin and don't want God. What does that have to do with this?

Andrew

25th January 2003, 12:42 AM

have you watched the video Raised from the Dead by Reinhardt Bonke ministries? Have you read about John G Lake, Kathryn Khulman, Wigglesworth, TL Osborn, Peter Youngren's ministries?

The miracles are all out there. People just choose not to believe it becos then theyd have to admit they are wrong. at most they write it off as the devil's work.

Andrew

25th January 2003, 12:44 AM

There are people not saved because they love their sin and don't want God. What does that have to do with this?

well then tell me this, does that mean God does not love them and that Jesus didnt die for their sins?

also, tell me why many Christians still live life conscious of their sins and guilt.

Apologist

25th January 2003, 12:50 AM

Originally posted by Andrew
have you watched the video Raised from the Dead by Reinhardt Bonke ministries? Have you read about John G Lake, Kathryn Khulman, Wigglesworth, TL Osborn, Peter Youngren's ministries?

And if they were true they would be front page on every newspaper in the world.

If these people can REALLY do these things then why don't they go down to the mortuary with other Christian leaders and show them God's power?
After all Jesus showed this kind of power to huge crowds of people.

The miracles are all out there. People just choose not to believe it becos then theyd have to admit they are wrong. at most they write it off as the devil's work.

Do you know that the bizarre manifestations displayed such as being "slain in the spirit" during the Great Awakening under Jonathan Edwards were considered as being the devils work by Edwards?

Apologist

25th January 2003, 12:51 AM

Originally posted by Andrew
well then tell me this, does that mean God does not love them and that Jesus didnt die for their sins?

also, tell me why many Christians still live life conscious of their sins and guilt.

You are setting up a smokescreen and avoiding the issue at hand.

Get to the point..... if you have one.

Andrew

25th January 2003, 01:01 AM

And if they were true they would be front page on every newspaper in the world.
becos the media is for the world. becos the media, like you, will think it is all some scam not worthy of a story. i work for a newspaper, and they dont report such things. to them its just some mystical hocus pocus with ulterior motives. and no modern newspaper wld want to promote Jesus. btw: if you read those books i mentioned, you will notice that the papers of that day wld report the miracles, that's how the crusades got so many people to attend.

If these people can REALLY do these things then why don't they go down to the mortuary with other Christian leaders and show them God's power?

how in the world do you know such things arent happening. do you think hospitals wld allow you to come touch their patients? anyway, heard of the healing rooms in Spokane? that's a better alternative. and you forget that most of the time, the faith of the patient will be required. so it's not a matter of I just switch on my power and heal anyone i like thing. Jesus himself did not do that.

You are setting up a smokescreen and avoiding the issue at hand.

Get to the point..... if you have one.

I already gotten to the point in my earlier posts, but you just ignored it. Again i will state that:

IT ALL BOILS DOWN TO WHETHER YOU SEE HEALING IN THE ATONING WORK OF CHRIST. You've only seen the 'saved-from-sin' part in the atoning work of Christ. IOW you believe, like most Christians, that Jesus carried your sins. But you dont believe or see that he also carried your pains and sicknesses. tht is the crux of the matter. and until you can see that, we'll be arguing till the cows come home.

Apologist

25th January 2003, 01:29 AM

Originally posted by Andrew

IT ALL BOILS DOWN TO WHETHER YOU SEE HEALING IN THE ATONING WORK OF CHRIST.

That is exactly the question and you and I do not agree.

I say that healing is provided for in the atonement but is not guaranteed.

You say it is guaranteed if you have faith. I disagree and so do most evangelicals.

There are serious repercussions to people who are taught this.

They have a loved one who is sick and they are told to pray in faith that God will heal them. They pray and pray believing God will heal them, and when they die they are shattered and told that they "didn't have enough faith." So they have the burdon on them that they were instrumental in the death of the loved one because of their "lack of faith."
That is dangerous teachings.

You can believe in this view of faith if you want, but I never will.

Andrew

25th January 2003, 02:33 AM

I say that healing is provided for in the atonement but is not guaranteed.

First of all apologist, I am glad that you see that healing is provided for in the Atoning Work of Christ. Am I right to say then, that you agree with me that Jesus did not just carry our sins, but like Isiah said: bore our pains and sicknesses too?

So, like salvation from sin and hell is provided for at the cross, so is healing provided for at the cross. IOW its free there for the taking by faith. BUT why A receives and B does not (whether it is salvation or healing) is another thing altogether.

They have a loved one who is sick and they are told to pray in faith that God will heal them. They pray and pray believing God will heal them, and when they die they are shattered and told that they "didn't have enough faith." So they have the burdon on them that they were instrumental in the death of the loved one because of their "lack of faith."That is dangerous teachings.You can believe in this view of faith if you want, but I never will.

sigh, again you are going by natural experiences. people who preach healing will tell you that even if no one gets healed, they will cont preaching it becos its in the Word.

cant u see you just contradicted yourself? first you say healing is provided for at the cross. then you say it is not guaranteed even if you have faith. this is like saying salvation is provided for at the cross, but it is not guaranteed even if you have faith. IOW even if a sinner prays and prays for salvation with lots of faith, it is not a guarantee that he will be/is saved. that is what you are saying in regard to healing.

yes there are those who pray and pray and do not get healed. then ask yourself this: who's at fault here? God or man? Let God be true and every man a liar. If healing as you say is provided for in the atoning work of Christ, then why a person does not receive the healing manifestation must be a question of what he is doing wrong not what God is doing wrong. THAT IS THE SIMPLE TRUTH! now how you 'tell' that to the suffering Christian is where the problem lies. You can ridicule his faith and make him hate all this healing business, or you can point out to him gently and with love (but firmness) where he is missing it and then continue to encourage him and build up his faith with him.

if healing is not manifesting in regard to a sickness in my body, i simply find out and dig where I'm missing it. most of the time, I find it is simply a lack of faith ie, i cant really believe or be bothered abt it even. what is so shattering about being told that or realising that?

Apologist

25th January 2003, 03:44 AM

Originally posted by Andrew
First of all apologist, I am glad that you see that healing is provided for in the Atoning Work of Christ. Am I right to say then, that you agree with me that Jesus did not just carry our sins, but like Isiah said: bore our pains and sicknesses too?

Isaiah is speaking of the illness of the soul. I'll let this from the Bible Knowledge Commentary speak since I agree with it:

53:4. Though not realizing it at the time, the nation will realize that the Servant bore the consequences of their sin. His taking our infirmities and . . . sorrows (mak_Õoµb_, see comments on v. 3) speaks of the consequences of sin. The verb took up, rendered ”bore“ in verse 12, translates naµsŒaµÕ, ”to carry.“ His bearing ”infirmities“ (h\oáléÆ, lit., ”sickness, “ the same word trans. ”suffering“ in v. 3) refers to illnesses of the soul. His healing many people’s physical illnesses (though not all of them) in His earthly ministry anticipated His greater work on the Cross. Though He does heal physical ailments today (though not all of them) His greater work is healing souls, giving salvation from sin. That this is the subject of Isaiah 53 is clear from the words ”transgressions“ (v. 5), ”iniquities“ (vv. 5, ll), ”iniquity“ (v. 6), ”transgressions“ (v. 8), ”wicked“ (v. 9), ”transgressors“ (v. 12 [twice]), and ”sin“ (v. 12). The Servant vicariously took on Himself all the sins (and spiritual anguish caused by sin) of the nation (and the whole world) and carried (saµb_al, ”to carry as a burden“; cf. 46:4, 7) them on Himself (cf. 1 Peter 2:24; 3:18). When Jesus was crucified, Israel thought His hardships (being stricken . . . smitten, and afflicted; cf. Isa. 53:7) were deserved for His supposedly having blasphemed God. Actually He was bearing the judgment that their sin required.

sigh, again you are going by natural experiences.

Why do you keep saying this? What you call "natural experiences" are what I call reality. If an interpretation of scripture defies reality then something is wrong.

cant u see you just contradicted yourself? first you say healing is provided for at the cross. then you say it is not guaranteed even if you have faith.

No I am not contradicting myself. When I say provided for I mean it is sufficient. Jesus' death was sufficient to heal physical ailments but God does not always choose to do so regardless of the spiritual state of the person.

this is like saying salvation is provided for at the cross, but it is not guaranteed even if you have faith.

No it is not. Salvation is what Christ died for, healing our ailments is secondary. I find that strange that you would equate the salvation of the soul as being of equal value to being healed of diseases.

If healing as you say is provided for in the atoning work of Christ, then why a person does not receive the healing manifestation must be a question of what he is doing wrong not what God is doing wrong. THAT IS THE SIMPLE TRUTH!

That is not true. You are saying that something in the person's life is wrong and that is why God is allowing them to stay sick. This is one of the biggest problems I have with WoF theology.

Let me add that the greatest preacher in modern times, Charles Spurgeon suffered constantly from ailments which took his life at only 57 years old.
Did he lack faith? That would be ludicrous to say considering the man in question.

SUNSTONE

25th January 2003, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by SUNSTONE
The answer to that last question, came from Jesus. People asked Him, what sin did the crippled man do, or what sin did his parents do, to make him crippled(I think it was a crippled person)? Jesus said it was neither, but he was made like that so that God would be glorified through healing him. Now I looked for the verse but couldn't find it, some help please. :help:

Lazerus also was sick and Jesus said, he is sick not unto death, but so that God will be glorified through the Son. (not exact words).

1. What is the gift of healing?

2. What is the gift of miracles?

Mark 16:18   "...they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

 

Don't insult me, answer the questions. Other wise you are just argueing and not even listening to the other person.

Andrew

26th January 2003, 11:47 PM

Isaiah is speaking of the illness of the soul. I'll let this from the Bible Knowledge Commentary speak since I agree with it:

so you'd rather listen to a faulty commentary (prob written by a cessationist) than to let the Bible interpret the Bible as I've shown. And by doing this you contradict your own earlier statement that you believe healing is part of the atonement. which is it??

Why do you keep saying this? What you call "natural experiences" are what I call reality. If an interpretation of scripture defies reality then something is wrong.

you forget -- we walk by faith, not by the senses. So Jesus raising the dead or walking on water defies nautral reality, so you are going to interpret those verses as symbolic only??

No I am not contradicting myself. When I say provided for I mean it is sufficient. Jesus' death was sufficient to heal physical ailments but God does not always choose to do so regardless of the spiritual state of the person.

either it is provided for or it is not. make up your mind. dont say it is provided and then start limiting it by saying 'sufficient' only. so is salvation 'sufficient' only?

Let me add that the greatest preacher in modern times, Charles Spurgeon suffered constantly from ailments which took his life at only 57 years old.
Did he lack faith? That would be ludicrous to say considering the man in question.

there you go again, using what you see, smell and hear in the natural to interpret the Bible for you, using personal experiences to determine whether you believe in healing or not. Did CS lack faith? Yes, in the area of healing for that ailment. He may have great faith in other areas, but not in that area.

You are confusing faithfulness with faith also.You can be the most sincere, God loving person in your church, attending services faithfully every Sun, serving in 10 ministries etc but still die of an illness if you know nothing about sickness and God's healing principles from the Bible. God says my people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge, not a lack of good intentions.

SpiritPsalmist

27th January 2003, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by Br. Max
quaffer? There are verses which record his words quite eliquently - a big difference. :) I do believe that Scripture states that Arron often spoke for moses to the people - Perhaps thats what you are thinking of. :) I know of no evidence which claims he stopped. :shrug: I believe that Jewish tradition maintians that he did not. :)

God bless

Bro Max,

I will have to search for the verse, or perhaps someone else know where it is but there is one referrence where it says that when the children of Israel were leaving, I belive it was Egypt, "there was not an infirmaty or sickness among them".  Would that not have included Moses?

dignitized

27th January 2003, 02:54 PM

since when is stuttering a sickness?

Defender of the Faith 777

27th January 2003, 03:01 PM

OK, what is cessationism?

I'm assuming it is about whether tongues and spiritual gifts have ceased, right? or maybe not?

SpiritPsalmist

27th January 2003, 03:01 PM

Originally posted by Br. Max
since when is stuttering a sickness?

I thought, Bro Max, that you were saying it here:

[Originally posted by Br. Max

[B]Lets not forget that Moses was a stutterer-erer <IMG alt="" src="http://www.christianforums.com/images/smilies/wink.gif" border=0> and God never took that from him. When I was a child I stuttered but now I do not - Moses never stopped. It kept him humble. Often times we are afflicted for our souls sakes. <IMG alt="" src="http://www.christianforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif" border=0> Not all afflictions are ones we need to be heal of or that God will heal us of.

Whatever stuttering is considered, it is not how God created people to talk.  Whether it's emotional or physical, God heals. 

SpiritPsalmist

27th January 2003, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777
OK, what is cessationism?

I'm assuming it is about whether tongues and spiritual gifts have ceased, right? or maybe not?

Yes, it is about whether they have ceased or not.  I do not believe they have ceased on God's part, but they have on man's part.

In other words:  somewhere along the line man decided that because he did not see these things working in his life then it meant that God was not doing it anymore.  What it really meant was that man was not doing what God has called him to do so in that man's life it has ceased. 

I must walk in obedience so that God does not have to use the fruit of disobedience to mold and conform me into His image.

Defender of the Faith 777

27th January 2003, 04:00 PM

SpiritPsalmist

27th January 2003, 08:03 PM

Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777
Interesting theory.

I believe they have on both parts. The main issue is tongues, right? Well, they first arose, and happened a few times in history, because of the language barrier. Man, God wanted a person to hear the message THAT bad, that He miraculously made the person speak another language!

Since there is virtually no language barrier nowadays, due to having interpreters and trilingual people, I don't think that tongues would be NECESSARY.

So we dissagree.  OH WELL! *shrug* I think the Apostle Paul, and all the others for that matter, would argue the "few times in history theory".  What history books are you reading?

I have a friend who, when he awoke from surgery was approached by the nurse and asked how long he had spoken Hebrew.  My friend replied "never".  He did not know Hebrew.

The nurse informed him that under anesthetic he spoke fluent Hebrew and the Jewish doctor understood every word.  My friend was proclaiming the works of God and witnessing Jesus to his Jewish doctor.

I guess God did not understand He was not supposed to do that stuff anymore.  :)

dignitized

28th January 2003, 12:57 AM

Originally posted by Quaffer
I thought, Bro Max, that you were saying it here:

Whatever stuttering is considered, it is not how God created people to talk.  Whether it's emotional or physical, God heals. 

Are you forgeting the man blind from birth? God made him blind.

Lets not forget also that God created the plagues of Egypt disease was among them. :)

God uses what man sees as evil - to further his kingdom. There is a woman I know of today who has a powerful witness because she is not "perfect" she has MS. She uses her MS to reach people for Christ. I think you are trying to paint a mltifasceted issue black and white.

SpiritPsalmist

28th January 2003, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by Br. Max
Are you forgeting the man blind from birth? God made him blind.

Lets not forget also that God created the plagues of Egypt disease was among them. :)

God uses what man sees as evil - to further his kingdom. There is a woman I know of today who has a powerful witness because she is not "perfect" she has MS. She uses her MS to reach people for Christ. I think you are trying to paint a mltifasceted issue black and white.

Where is the scripture that says "God made him blind"?

Disease was on the Egyptions, not the Isrialites.

She's a good witness because she allows God to use her dispite her sickness, not because of her sickness.  God does not make His children sick.  His children are sick because they live in a fallen world.  But they can be healed.

dignitized

28th January 2003, 06:17 PM

quaffer: again, GOD caused the diseases to happen. :) God does inflict sickness as a just penatly for sin and allows sickness to forward his greater glory. To say that God always heals . . . makes it the fault of the person if they do not get healed. Many tims God does not heal because a physical healing would cause spiritual damage.

Andrew

28th January 2003, 11:08 PM

Interesting theory. I believe they have on both parts. The main issue is tongues, right? Well, they first arose, and happened a few times in history, because of the language barrier. Man, God wanted a person to hear the message THAT bad, that He miraculously made the person speak another language!

its not just abt tongues but the 9 supernatural gifts listed in Cor 13. ie healings, prophecy, working of miracles, faith, discerning of spirits etc.

Since there is virtually no language barrier nowadays, due to having interpreters and trilingual people, I don't think that tongues would be NECESSARY.

that's simply not true becos tongues was never a gift to the church to "overcome language barriers" BTW, its not possible for every Christian to have an interpreter 24/7.

the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still very much alive and in use today. Whether one sees or experiences it has nothing to do with the fact that God's Word says it has not ceased. We dont go by experiences but by the Word of God.

Andrew

28th January 2003, 11:18 PM

again, GOD caused the diseases to happen.

then you are saying God is the author of chaos or that the Prince of Peace is also the prince of dis-ease. We believe God allows, but does not author it.

God does inflict sickness as a just penatly for sin and allows sickness to forward his greater glory.

No he doesnt. Do you inflict sickness on your child to punish him??? then why accuse God of that? Also, our sins were already punished on the body of Jesus 2000 years ago, so it God still punishes sin in us, then he is not being faithful and just to the finished work of Christ. The same crime cannot be punished twice. Dont forget we are on this side of the cross.

To say that God always heals . . . makes it the fault of the person if they do not get healed. Many tims God does not heal because a physical healing would cause spiritual damage.

cause spiritual damage? that's nonsense! Try telling that to the child or husband who's losing his wife to cancer! They'll have nothing to do with your so-called 'compassionate' God.

SpiritPsalmist

29th January 2003, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by Br. Max
quaffer: again, GOD caused the diseases to happen. :) God does inflict sickness as a just penatly for sin and allows sickness to forward his greater glory. To say that God always heals . . . makes it the fault of the person if they do not get healed. Many tims God does not heal because a physical healing would cause spiritual damage.

What God did was lay down the way things would work.  If we obey, we are blessed.  If we dissobey, we are cursed.  (Deut 28, the whole chapter.  It's an automatic spiritual reflex.  What we reap, we sow.  Period.

He's the same yesterday, today, and forever.  He cannot deny Himself.  So, IF we become sick as a penalty for sin then it was a choice we made.  God, did not, at that point in time, say, "ut oh, so and so sinned so I must correct them with sickness, etc."  Basically, we could say, so and so had door#1 (blessed) and door#2 (cursed).  They chose door#2, and walked through it on their own 2 feet.

Scripture says, "by His stripes we are (IS 53:5/were (1 Peter 2:24) healed.

We either are and were or are'nt and were not.  Since God cannot deny Himself (2 Tim 2:13) and scripture says are and were, then we are and were.  In the Spirit rhelm it's already happened.  We can't change it.

So now, it's a flesh issue.  What in my flesh is keeping my flesh from manifesting the healing that has already happend in the Spirit?  Is it continued sin?  Is it unbelief?  Is it unforgiveness?  Is it poor eating habits?  Sleep habits?  What?

If we are sick due to someone else's sin, let's pick Adam . . .we're all fallen due to his choice of door#2.  We still are and were healed.  We still can be keeping the healing from manifesting in the flesh by sin, unbelief, unforgiveness, etc, etc.

If we get before God and He does not reveal anything in our hearts and or flesh that He needs to work on, then all we can do is trust that the healing will manifest in His time and keep on serving Him to the best of our ability.  If we die before the healing manifests in the flesh then we will definetely see it in Heaven.  But we can at least, choose to go down believing.

Quaffer

JesusServant

29th January 2003, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by Quaffer
This is so true.  Some have concluded that since they have not experienced it then it does not happen.  :scratch:

So technically, by their experience of no experience, no one should have an experience, because that has to mean that something is wrong.  And it could'nt possibly be with them . . .the one's with no experience. 

If the Bible says something is supposed to happen, then it's supposed to happen.  If it doesn't, well, I believe God anyway. 

The Bible says, blessed are those who believe without seeing.  I have seen a lot, but what I have not seen, if the Bible says it, I still choose to believe it.

My grandfather is 94 and still living (on his own with my grandmother I might add).  God has truly blessed them.  He is one of these people you speak of.  He is VERY strong in faith and I have no doubt that they will both be with Christ in eternity.  However, he has this problem (and this goes beyond tongues, healing, etc.) that if he hasn't experienced or witnessed it, it hasn't happened.  This is strange considering his strong faith in what he hasn't witnessed, nevertheless, he was mislead and therefor I pray for who mislead him in this area to the extent it solidified his view.

I too used to be this way and thank God I had my grandfather in my life not only as a great example of how to be a Christian man, but also how to not be as a Christian man.  God bless!

dignitized

29th January 2003, 06:26 PM

quaffer: and what of the verses where the Lord says what we sow, our fathers have sown? This is not a simple black and white issue. YES GOD HEALS! :D But if he does not - He has HIM reason.

SpiritPsalmist

29th January 2003, 07:28 PM

Originally posted by Br. Max
quaffer: and what of the verses where the Lord says what we sow, our fathers have sown? This is not a simple black and white issue. YES GOD HEALS! :D But if he does not - He has HIM reason.

Hey Br. Max

I'm not sure of your statement or question :scratch:

I believe I've covered all the ground.  I believe it is a black and white issue.

Our healing is already done in the Spirit realm, it's the flesh that is the problem.  Some of the flesh issues may be learning how to overcome what the enemy has done to us as a result of the sins of our fathers. 

As a child of God, if we are in complete obedience to God, then we are "free from the curse of the law of sin and death".  The curse of the law of sin and death covered much more than eternity in hell. 

However, if we don't know (in our knower) that there is more to the curse besides eternity in hell, (see Deut 28) then we frequently continue to live as under the curse and believe the lies of the enemy, that we are under the curse.  As a result of that we then reap the effects of a curse we are not even under.

You are correct Br Max.  If healing does not manifest in the flesh, there is a reason.  And it's not because God desires it. 

God will use sickness.  But He does not make His children sick to teach them a lesson.  They are sick, because somewhere along the line, door#2 was chosen. Whether they or their fathers did the choosing.

With repentance and turning from whatever area they are falling short in He uses the sickness to bring glory to Himself.  I believe healing in the flesh is still available but if it does not manifest until I'm in heaven I still choose to believe I'm healed.  Because, by His stripes we are/were healed.

Quaffer