Jesus... King of kings... Lord of lords... the Son of God? Jesus and God as one?

[SenseiPiccolo]

Well...
heres a little more Bible study for you all....
Is Jesus the Son of God?
Is Jesus God?

^_^

[StogusMaximus]

Yes, and Yes.

[SenseiPiccolo]

Originally posted by StogusMaximus
Yes, and Yes.

AMEN!!!
Praise Jesus!!!
^_^

[rkbo]

The doctrine of the Trinity has been attacked for thousands of years. It is biblical and essential. Any Jesus besides a divine one is a false one.

Instead of rambling about this in my own inept way I will let Unger say it better.
TRINITY

TRINITY. The term by which is expressed the unity of three Persons in the one God. The Christian doctrine is: (1) That there is only one God, one divine nature and being. (2) This one divine Being is tripersonal, involving the distinctions of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. (3) These three are joint partakers of the same nature and majesty of God. This doctrine is preeminently one of revelation. And although it brings before us one of the great mysteries of revelation and transcends finite comprehension, it is essential to the understanding of the Scriptures, and, as we shall see, has its great value and uses.
Scripture Doctrine. Although the doctrine of the Trinity is implicit rather than explicit in the OT, at the same time it is properly held that with the accompanying light of the NT this truth can be found in the OT (e.g., <Num. 6:24-26; Isa. 6:3; 63:9-10>, the sanctity of the symbolical number three-- the plural form of Elohim, also places in which the Deity is spoken of as conversing with Himself). This is in accord with the gradual development of revealed truth in other particulars. The religion of the OT is emphatically monotheistic. The almost exclusive proclamation of the unity of God was essential as a safeguard against polytheism.
The NT teaching upon this subject is not given in the way of formal statement. The formal statement, however, is legitimately and necessarily deduced from the Scriptures of the NT, and these, as has been suggested, cast a light backward upon the intimations of the OT. Reliance, it is held by many competent critics, is not to be placed upon the passages in <Acts 20:28> and <1 Tim. 3:16>; and <1 John 5:7> is commonly regarded as spurious. Aside from these, however, it is plain that both Christ and the apostles ascribe distinct personality to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (see articles, Father, God the; Sonship of Christ; Holy Spirit, the). And these utterances are such as to admit legitimately of no other conception than that of the unity of these three Persons in the ontological oneness of the whole divine nature (see, e.g., <Matt. 28:19; John 14:16-17; 1 Cor. 12:4-6; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Pet. 1:2; Rev. 1:4-6>). The same worship is paid and the same works are ascribed to each of these three Persons, and in such a way as to indicate that these three are united in the fullness of the one living God. The monotheism of the OT is maintained, while glimpses are nevertheless afforded into the tripersonal mode of the divine existence.
Theological Suggestions. The Christian faith at this period does not ground itself upon philosophy, for it here extends to a matter far above the reach of philosophical reflection. Also, little stress, if any, is to be laid upon apparent resemblances between pagan religions and Christianity at this point-- resemblances more apparent than real. The doctrine is to be accepted by faith in the divine revelation; and although it is above reason and cannot be comprehended in its depth and fullness, it does not follow that it is opposed to reason.
The question as to whether the Trinity is merely one of manifestation or that of essential nature has been raised again and again in the history of the church (see Sabellianism in the article Doctrine). Undoubtedly the history of revelation shows progress in the unfolding of truth concerning God. And in that sense the Trinity is dispensational. But it is also emphatically to be borne in mind that if God reveals Himself, He must reveal Himself as He is, and the Trinity of revelation must therefore rest upon a Trinity of nature. The attempt to remove difficulty by any sort of Sabellian interpretation only raises difficulty of a deeper character. Can God on the whole reveal Himself other than He actually is?
On the other hand Christianity has reason to guard itself, as it has generally sought to do, against tritheistic conceptions. Both the unity and the tripersonal nature of God are to be maintained. And thus the proper baptismal formula is not "In the name of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit," but the words as our Lord gave them <Matt. 28:19>.
It is admitted by all who thoughtfully deal with this subject that the Scripture revelation here leads us into the presence of a deep mystery and that all human attempts at expression are of necessity imperfect. The word person, it may be, is inadequate and is doubtless used often in a way that is misleading. "That God is alike one Person, and in the same sense three Persons, is what Christianity has never professed" (Van Oosterzee). Said Augustine, "Three persons, if they are to be so called, for the unspeakable exaltedness of the object cannot be set forth by this term." And yet the long-standing and prevailing doctrine of the church expresses more nearly than any other the truth concerning God as it

[Hervey]

Jesus The Christ is the Son of God - Yes !

He is not God !

I don't have time to lay out a biblical format right now, so maybe tomorrow.

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[rkbo]

Hervey I was afraid you might say somthing like that.

[Hervey]

I started thinking about my reply and whether or not I should make this simple or complicated, with a lot of scriputre and explanations.

Past experience has told me and taught me to keep it simple.

Jesus Christ is the son of man, and the Son of God, and we can come up with many scriptures to show this to be true. But this does not seem to be the area of disagreement. Where the area of disagreement lies, is as to whether or not Jesus Christ is God.

The word "God" is a title. Just like the word "Lord" or the word "King"

The Word of God is also very logical, and anything that does not appear logical , should, at the very least be questioned.

But first, lets look at the logical :

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. God created "man" in his own image. Thus, God would not waver from his own image, that he created in man.

It is logical to understand, and believe, that a father gives his seed over to his offspring. That seed impregnates the ovum from his wife. The two become one and a new human is born, in about nine months.

God (title) himself, can not waver from "how" a son is born. If he did waver, then what he has told us within His Word would then become worthless !

From heaven, God (title) himself said, "This is my beloved Son , in whom I am well pleased". God (title) acknowledged his own Son ! Like any father would, especially if you are well pleased with your son.

Sons do not always do the will of their fathers. But Jesus Christ did the will of his Father, and we read in the gospels, that he acknowledged doing the will of his Father, instead of his own will.( Thy will be done ). Jesus Christ always acknowledge that his Father gave him this and gave him that. Just like any ordinary father would do for his son. And a thankful son would explain that what he had , came from his father.

Even after being raised from the dead, Jesus Christ told Mary M. in John 20:17 that she should not touch him yet, because he has not ascended yet to his Father. Then he tells her that she is to go and tell the brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father (title) and your Father (title) and my God (title) and your God (title).

If Jesus Christ has a God and there is only "One" God, then we must agree with the logical understanding here .

Even at 12 years old, Jesus Christ said to his mother , that he was going about to do the will of his Father.

Even after he ascended up into heaven, God (and Father) set his Son on "His" own right hand. Which is the side of power and authority, and blessing. Jesus Christ did not sit "on" the throne, but on the right hand of him that did sit upon the throne.

Because God is logical, then we can feel confident that His Word is logical. Logic will always reign ! Never - ever in the Word of God, is a son , also the Father, nor anywhere in the Word, is the Father also the son. A son does become a father, but a father never becomes a son. The only way a father can be a son, is at birth, he himself is born of a father, then later in life, as he gets older, has himself , a son, or a daughter.

God is logical, in that everthing in His Word is in perfect balance. A son sins, and a Son redeems . If Adam was a God, then a God would have to redeem. Anything that is not in balance with God, is an abomination unto the Lord God Almighty -- Proverbs 11:1

Everything with God , under the Law, in the OT, was an eye for an eye etc. A perfect balance - always !

It was the sin of Adam that all mankind dies, and it is the faithfullness unto death of one Christ Jesus, that all men will be made alive = This "One", is Christ Jesus, who in the spiritual , is the Last Adam, the second man from the Lord - I Corinth. 15:45 - 47. #1 - First man in the literal - First Adam #2 - Second man from the Lord - Last Adam - Spiritual. Perfect balance ! The Word tells us things like the first shall be last and the last first . This is talking about the "first" Adam , and the "Last" Adam = Perfect balance - Last first, first last.

God, who is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, raised him from the dead. Salvation is according to this belief - Romans 10:9 & 10.

We who are Christians, who have "Christ IN" them, the hope of glory, have to have the same faith that Christ had , when he was about to die. That God would raise him from the dead. WE also will be raised by the same power that raised his Son from the dead - I Corinth. 6:14

WE can only have confidence with the Logic, that The Word of God gives us. Remember: Let God be true, and every man a liar. God is a God of balance and he is a God of logic. Keep your minds in balance and in logic, then and only then will you have the correct understanding, that Jesus Christ is the son of man, and the Son of God, and "NOT " God !!

Love - IN Christ - Christ IN - Hervey

[SenseiPiccolo]

youve made some pretty good point there Hervey...
time for me to pull out the Good Book and do more studying
thanks,
^_^

[Martin]

Sorry..... Jesus is God!!

John 20:28-29
Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

Thomas offered worship to Jesus and called Him God - there is no sign anywhere that Jesus rebuked Thomas for refering to Him as God.......

[BuzzBeer]

I was watching The Simpsons yesterday, you know, the film festival one. Well Mr. Burns made a movie, and in it this guy called him the "king among kings". Are you telling me this is a lie?!?

[SenseiPiccolo]

again Buzzbeer... your in my prayers...

Yes!!!
Jesus is God!!
^_^
Matthew 22 : 32
John 10 : 25-30

^_^

[SenseiPiccolo]

Originally posted by BuzzBeer
I was watching The Simpsons yesterday, you know, the film festival one. Well Mr. Burns made a movie, and in it this guy called him the "king among kings". Are you telling me this is a lie?!?
"king among kings"
same as
"people among people"

But Jesis IS MORE
Jesis IS
King OF Kings
Lord OF Lords

see the difference
^_^

[rkbo]

Hervey take a look at this
Isa 55:8-9
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
(KJV)

To say that God has to fit in a box is limiting him. He is beyond our understanding. He has revealed himself and that is good enough for me. No one is saying that the Son is the Father. We are saying that the Son is God, the Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God and there is one God. The three persons are one God. This is Trinitarian theology and it fits scriptures perfectly.

[SenseiPiccolo]

God is litterally BEYOND
thats the only word to describe His mass...
BEYOND
^_^

[solo66 man]

Does this help?

And Thomas answered [Jesus] and said unto him, My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever" (Hebrews 1:8).

"Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever" (Romans 9:5).

"For in him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9).

"The great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).

"and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life" (1 John 5:20).

[solo66 man]

how about the Creator?

"For by him [Jesus] were all thing created all things were created by him, and for him. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist" (Colossians 1:16-17).

[SenseiPiccolo]

You all are studying the bible quite well...
also--
go back the Genesis...
it also speaks of Jesus in there too
^_^

[Hervey]

When "God" created man , in his own image. God did "not" created another god !

There is only "One" true God !

No man has seen God at any time !

Jesus Christ himself said, to tell his brethren, that he is going to ascend unto his God and your God, and my Father and your Father. (John 20:17)

In order for there to only be one true God, and if Jesus Christ said that he had a God, and that this God is our God also, whom he is going to ascend unto , then Jesus Christ can not be God ! !

"All" other verses must be understood in a "logical" light !

Jesus Christ asked Peter, who do you say that I am, and Peter replied, thou are the Christ, the Son of the living God. Jesus Christ replied back to Peter, for flesh and blood has not revealed this unto you, but my Father which is in heaven.

Jesus Christ was flesh and blood, and he (Jesus Christ) did not reveal it unto Peter, but Jesus Christ's Father did reveal this unto Peter.

Jesus Christ said what he said, and what he said is not a lie , nor a correction of Peter. Jesus Christ spoke truth ! Jesus Christ said , that his Father revealed unto Peter, that "he" , Jesus, was the Christ, the Son of the living God ! Not God !!

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[Hervey]

rkbo:

Isa 55:8-9
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
(KJV)

God can not contradict himself !

His thoughts are not your thoughts, because his thoughts are logical and your thoughts are not logical.

I have talked with people who say that King David is a murderer. These are the thoughts of man , and not of God !

God's thoughts, say, that no murderer hath any eternal life abiding in them. Man's thoughts , say, that God forgives those who murder. God's thought say no, and man's thoughts say yes.

Man's thoughts say, that God does not kill. God's thoughts say that he does indeed kill !

Man's thoughts say, that God literlly came in the flesh. God's thoughts say, that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, and he was the son of man and the Son of God.

Man's thoughts say, do a communion service, which is called the Lord's supper. God's thoughts say, that when you come together , this is not to do the Lord's supper. ( I Corinth. 11:20)

Man's thoughts say, that God is a triune god. God's thoughts say, that he is a God of two of everything !

Man's thoughts say, that they do not understand God, and thus declare what they do not understand as confusion. God's thoughts say, that he is not the author of confusion. That Satan is !

Man's thoughts say, that the cross looks like an "X" that is made to stand uprightly. God's thoughts say, that the cross , looks like a "Y", and not an "x".

Man's thoughts say, that we should go to a building to worship. God's thougths say, that he does not dwell in buildings made with hands.

Man's thoughts say, that there are four seasons in a year. God's thoughts say, that there are four, but if you look closely with your spiritual eyes , you will only see two. Four with your physical eyes,and two with your spiritual eyes. With your spiritual eyes, you see "spring" as a part of summer. The awakening of life - #1 And your spiritual eyes will see "fall" as a part of winter. The sleeping of life - #2. God is a God of all life. Born - Born again. Awake - sleep.

Mans thoughts say, that there are many different kinds of trees. God's thoughts say, that there are only two. Hardwood and softwood. Leaf trees and needle trees - Only two.

God's thoughts are not man's thoughts ! But , God is "logical" !!

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[rkbo]

Hervey once again you take text out of context to make a pretext.

Jesus is the son of God and he is God and he is man. All these things are true of him and this is a Trinitarian doctrine.

Your private interpretation is whack!!!!

You do not have a corner in Gods truth. You have a perceived "Hervey" truth. This spirit that has lead you to your conclutions have misled you and you are in great peril.
2 Tim 4:1-4
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
(KJV)

You need to erase the blackboard and get back to the real Jesus and let the true Holy Spirit guide your understanding.

[SenseiPiccolo]

hmmmmm......
:D

[Hervey]

rkbo:

Sound doctrine !
Are you telling me that your triune god has three eyes and three ears and three arms , etc ? ?

God said that he created and made man in his own image !

Are you going to call the doctrine that you are proclaiming as being sound doctrine ?

I will gladly discuss the words of Jesus Christ with you, in the gospels, and we will see whoes words and theology is of sound doctrine - shall we ?

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[edjones]

John 14:20 "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."



John 14:17 says the Holy Ghost dwells within the believer. Now verse 20 says Jesus Christ dwells within the believer also. II Corinthians 13:5 and Colossians 1:27 confirms this. Then, Ephesians 4:6 informs us that God the Father is in us. Furthermore, II John 9 tell us that we possess both the Father and the Son! So a believer is indwelt by The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. If there is no Trinity then things are getting a mite crowded in our bodies!

The greatest single proof text on the Trinity is I John 5:7 which plainly states, For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. Of course this verse is eliminated from most modern translations. The NASV removes the verse and then creates a fraudulent verse seven out of the latter half of verse six. The NIV banishes this divine testimony of the triune God and makes a counterfeit verse seven out of the first few words of verse eight.

If this had been done to a business contract the perpetrators would be called "criminals." When it is done to the Word of God the perpetrators are called "scholars!" If it were done in a business environment someone would go to jail. When it is performed on the Word of God they go to Bible colleges to teach impressionable young men headed for the ministry!

[Hervey]

ED:

The issue here is "sound doctrine", not unsound doctrine, as you have presented !

John 14:17 ? Holy Spirit ? It says - "the Spirit of truth" !

And, if you read the context properly, you will notice that the comforter is coming in the Son's name - John 14:26 , which is Christ, "Christ IN" you the hope of glory !

Romans 8:9 - 11

9) - But ye are not in the flesh , but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of(from ) God dwell in you. (That -- Spirit of God is Christ ) But if any man have not the Spirit of Christ , he is none of his"

10) - But if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin ; but the Spirit (Christ IN You ) is life because of righteousness"

11) - But if the Spirit of(from ) him (God) that raised up Jesus from the dead (Christ IN You )dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your motal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you" (Christ IN You )

I John 4:12 - "No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth (figuratively) in us, and his love is perfected in us"

Verse 13 - "he has given us of his Spirit" (Christ IN us )

Verse 14 - "Father sent the Son"

Verse 15 - "Whosoever shall confess that Jesus Christ is the Son of God , God dwelleth in him, and he in God"

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[edjones]

Jesus best wraps the whole thing up in John 17:22 when He says, and the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one."

Therefore it is quite safe to conclude that there is in deed a "Godhead" which we refer to as the Trinity.

It is also safe to conclude that you can ignore ANYONE who would rend I John 5:7 from the Bible.

[Hervey]

Godhead - means = God over

I Corinth. 11:3 - "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ ; and the head of the woman is the man ; and the head of Christ is God " KJV

Now Ed, you are going to have to deal with your KJV !

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[edjones]

The Lord Jesus Christ and God are our Saviour.

In Titus 1:4 Paul refers to "the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour." Yet, in the preceding verse he referred to "God our Saviour." This happens again in Titus 2:10,13 and again in Titus 3:4,6.

[Hervey]

Ed:

These verses are true !

1 + 1 = 2 = God is a God of two of everything ! Not triune !

God and Jesus Christ are "both" our Saviour.

God gave his Son

His Son gave of himself = 1 + 1 = 2

Love IN Christ - Christ IN - Hervey

[edjones]

How The Members of the Trinity Function-
The members of the Trinity work together in complete unity, totally dependant and yet totally interdependence of each other. God the Father is the sovereign ruler of the entire universe, everything operates because of and to fulfill his eternal plan. God the Son takes this plan out of eternity and brings it into time, administering the various aspects of the plan. God the Holy Spirit makes this eternal plan, the will of God, real to men. These functions can be illustrated many times in the Bible.

[SenseiPiccolo]

hmmmmmm....
i must do a little more Bible studying...
thanks for all the input...
:)