What makes a Messianic - MJ opinions only

[P_G]

Please before you post read the OP

This is a question posed ONLY to those who have a Messianic Icon
Other posts will be deleted

Please share your opinions and spend as much space as you need to expound
But please NO DEBATE

OK so that was a big build up!

I am gathering information from OUR community as to what defines an adhereant to Messainic Judaism. So please share what you feel makes some one a Messianic.

I really appreciate your input!

Shalom

PG

[stone]

a desire to learn to be torah observant, and actually do it

[MattyJames]

A messianic follows the Commandments of God (Torah/ Tenach) and the Testimony of Yeshua (NT).

Follows: To do with all their heart, might, mind and soul.

regards,

Matt James

[insaneinthebrain]

I doubt this'll make me any friends, but...

the MJAA definition (http://www.mjaa.org/engine.cfm?i=3&sl=15):
Messianic Judaism is a Biblically-based movement of people who, as committed Jews, believe in Yeshua (Jesus) as the Jewish Messiah of Israel of whom the Jewish Law and Prophets spoke.

To many this seems a glaring contradiction. Christians are Christians, Jews are decidedly not Christian. So goes the understanding that has prevailed through nearly two thousand years of history.

Messianic Jews call this a mistaken - and even anti-Scriptural - understanding. Historical and Biblical evidence demonstrates that following Yeshua was initially an entirely Jewish concept. Decades upon decades of persecution, division, and confused theology all contributed to the dichotomy between Jews and believers in Yeshua that many take for granted today.


A definition from Joseph Shulam, a Messianic Rabbi in Jerusalem (http://netivyah.org.il/English%20Web/MidrashaArticles/interview_joseph.html):
Messianic Jews are first of all Jews. You cannot be a Messianic Jew without being Jewish first, and a lot of our brothers in Brazil and the United States have not learned this yet. You find a lot of people that are not at all Jewish, that want to be Messianic Jews - it doesn't work. It is like trying to make chicken soup without chicken! But if you are a Jew, and believe that Jesus is the Messiah, and you have not given up your identity as a Jew, then you are a Messianic Jew. That means a Jew who has Yeshua as his Lord, his Master and Savior. But there are as many “flavors” of Messianic Jews as there are flavors of ice cream - Jews who are more orthodox, others less orthodox, Jews who are sour, others sweet. But any Jew who believes that Jesus is his Messiah and Savior is a Messianic Jew.

How do they live? They have a variety of lifestyles - from very Protestant, to Catholic, to Orthodox Jewish, and I suppose all of them are acceptable to God since they simply reflect the fact that Yeshua is the Messiah. The Kingdom of God is neither food nor drink, nor what we wear, nor about which
day we rest.

[CovenantRay]

Shalom Misbocha:

As usual, I only speak for myself. IIB's quotes do fit me, but I chafe at collective nouns.

The second initial in MJ is where the trouble is....

1) If you are a "Jew" and accept Y'shua as Messiah, then [virtually all] Jews renounce you as a Christian or heretic.

2) If you are a "Christian" and accept the whole bible as G-d's Word and desire to live according those mitzvot that can be observed:

A) Jews [virtually all] may be amused but will not call you a Jew,
B) Christians [mostly] may not be amused and will brand you legalistic.

I guess that'll cover it.

Shalom,

CovenantRay :prayer:

Mozel Tov!

[Wags]

This is from Torah Resource.com

Why do we use the label "Torah Communities?" We are in an era when there are no such things as "convenient labels." While many followers of Yeshua who have returned to an appreciation of Torah refer to themselves as "messianic," this label has become less descriptive and fraught with confusion. The "messianic movement" is so broad and encompasses groups with such diverse doctrines and practices that we honestly have a difficult time including ourselves under that label.

What is more, some groups have, by and large, taken a view of the Torah that it is for Jews only and that Gentile believers should not be encouraged to embrace a Torah lifestyle. We find this to be in direct opposition to Scripture. We believe there should be one Torah for both Jew and non-Jew (Exodus 12:49; Numbers 15:16, 29; Isaiah 56:4-5, etc.) and that this one Torah is what God gave to His people through Moses.

Furthermore, we believe the goal of the Torah is Yeshua, the Messiah (Romans 10:4; 2Corinthians 3:15-16, cp. 4:3-6), and that therefore when the Torah is received and obeyed, our faith in Yeshua as well as our appreciation for Him only increases. In fact, it is through Torah that we gain the necessary foundation for understanding Messiah: what He has done, is doing, and will do for us. And as we conform our lives to God's Torah, we find a tremendous source of strength and encouragement to be the people He intends.

Finally, the label "Torah Communities" puts an emphasis upon community rather than upon programs. We have come to realize that meetings and programs, while obviously important, are not an end in themselves. Rather, meetings and programs must be the means of building strong families, and ultimately a strong, biblical, and faithful community.

Given these perspectives, the label "Torah Community" works best for who we are and what we hope to accomplish.


I think Tim makes some valid points - the movement does have some very divrse teachings that are often in direct conflict with each other.

To me personaly, a person (ethnicity doesn't matter for this description) is a messianic believer if they:

1. Believe that Yeshua is the promised messiah
2. Believe that Torah is still applicable in the lives of believers in that it shows us how to live in harmony with our Redeemer.

Of course if someone believes that Torah is applicable they will seek to be doers and not just hearers and they will have a heart for Israel .

.

[Shimshon]

Messianics have a desire to work together to realize the 'Kingdom of Messiah' in the earth and to prepare others to receive the King. We are not trying to attain perfect observance of the Mosaic covenant or it's Torah or to re-establish the covenant made through Moshe. We want to see Messiah in us, our hope and eternal life. We want to follow the Torah of Messiah, as he taught and lived it. To look deeper into the truth and the teachings of Yeshua than has ever been done before. Messianics want to walk in full anointing with his pirit and in the power and gifts he gives us to awaken the world to his Kingship, and to our new reality as sons and daughters of the Lord God himself.

Messianics believe that we are called by the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit) to be a light for Yeshua in the world, to form of two people Jews and Gentiles, ONE NEW MAN.

Our goal through every ministry is to exalt and lift up Yeshua as the Messiah, the Son of God and to realize His mission to make a way for us to draw near to the Holy One, Adonai Elohim Tzavot.

His Word, as preached and taught from a Jewish perspective, is the foundation of what we believe. Therefore His Torah given through Moshe is foundational to correctly understanding everything that was written after it.

Messianics strive to live a Scriptural lifestyle in which the household of Israel represents His redeemed community, comprised of both faithful Jews and faithful Gentiles. We are called to reflect the reality of the ONE NEW MAN. Ephesians 2:11-22. The Messiah and the Apostles all lived as Jews and taught all believers to live a life approved of God as established by the principles of Torah.

Messianics believe that the family was instituted by God as the basis for passing His heritage and values to the next generation (Deut. 6:7). We form a mishpocha (family) devoted to expressing the love of God based upon it's 'Hebrew' roots.



Messianic Judaism today has grown from the 'hebrew roots' ministries from within the church. Formerly there were Hebrews, Jews who came to faith in Christ. They entered the Church and became Christians. They also, by the will of Abba, influenced the birth of the 'hebrew roots' ministires within the church.

These ministries today have experienced a pendulum swing to it's opposite outcome. What was first a 'Jew' coming to faith in Jesus Christ and entering the Church, has become a Christian who has rejected everything of the Church but Christ and him crusified and becoming 'Jewish'.

Both are extremes and both are in error. First we have the Jewish becoming Christian, now we have Christians becoming Jewish.

A Messianic stands in the gap and offers help to both sides, remaining founded upon the Rock. With the Spirit given we remain in the spotlight, not in the dusk or dawning of a new day. We stand at high noon and herald the banner. YESHUA!!! Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, ON EARTH as it IS in Heaven.

Messianic is the 'hebraic' equivalent to Christian. Yet, it's seeing the King of Israel, the Messiah, the Christ, through 'hebrew' eyes.

This was the origins of 'todays' Messianic Movement', and what it meant to be a "Messianic". Today many in it have made it the rejection of everything Christian and and the embracing of all things 'Jewish'. Some seem to conceal the 'Christian' within the word 'Messianic and wave the 'JUDAISM' as the banner.

It's not about being Jewish as much as possible, and it's not about being Christian.

It's about being who God called us to be. His Children, Holy and True. Living within His Kingdom 'NOW' by the power of the Spirit given us thanks to Yeshua's work on the cross.

Shimshon

[schwartmrs]

I believe that an adherant to Messianic Judaism is not necessarily always Jewish. I believe there are Jewish and Gentile Messianics alike. For this reason, I do not ever call my self a Messianic Jew (since I'm not Jewish) but rather I call myself simply a Messianic beleiver.

I beleive that the faith itself is correctly called Messianic Judaism, but followers are more simply Messianic beleivers. I feel this is more inclusive.

I do not think that Torah observance should be a criteria...before you all stone me, hear me out. If Torah observance is a criteria, then we must decide how MUCH Torah must be observed before one "qualifies" as Messianic. I would rather not be in a position of judging my fellow believer in that way.

I would offer the following criteria....

1. A Messianic should be, first and foremost, a believer.

2. A Messianic should see the New Testament as a continuation of the Old Testament...not a replacement.

3. A Messianic should be praying and studying and considering Torah observance to some degree...even if they have not implemented any changes...it really is about the heart...I think they should be accepted the moment their heart turns down the path...even before the fruit is produced...but maybe that's just me.

I think that possibly an even broader definition could be given...there are some out there that have never heard of us...and yet, they feel in their hearts the need to restore what Constantine cost us 1700 years ago...would they not also be considered Messianic?

[stone]

baby steps, good point:thumbsup:

[Sephania]

OK< My two shekels

I can't say I am in total agreement with any one answer here so I will take what I am in agreement with.

One who is a 'Messianic Believer' is one who:

1.First was born Jewish
1.Second born Gentile
both share a common understanding of a complete word of G-d , from the beginning, B'reshet, to the ending, the Revelation of Yeshua, but understand the end was told from the beginning.

2.Do not believe in Salvation as a 'faith only' but in harmony and echad with works that are done by us through the Ruach HaKodesh, and is an ongoing process of salvation, instead of a 'done deal' as in 'I'm saved'.

This ongoing process is observed by ever striving to be in obedience to the one who has promised to be our salvation. It is honoring the two commandments that Yeshua said were the greatest ( but not the only) first and foremost :

1. Loving the L-RD our G-d with all our hearts, souls and might, and to do so , the only way I believe we can show our love is in obedience of his word.

2. Loving your neighbor as yourself, is the second greatest, but all the other laws stem off those two.

I do not believe you should be called a Messianic believer, even if you are born Jewish or have Jewish blood on one side or another of your family tree if you:

1. Are Anti-semetic (and yes they do exist)
2. Are anti-zionist ( don't believe that Jews have a right to be in the land promised to the forefathers)
3. Believe that the Church has replaced Israel, in anything.
4. Do not keep ( or are working towards) keeping Shabbat in the biblical way, not in the church defined way of 'sunday' or anyday you pick ( I know this can be contentious, but I am generally speaking of not doing common things that can be done the other 6 days of the week from sundown 6th day to sundown 7th day. Doing work that glorifys the L-RD is exempt as in tabernacle times and Yeshuas teachings. )
5. Are not striving to remove uncleaness from their lives, in doing their part in this by practicing some form of Kosher eating, and at least abiding by the starting point of Acts 15:19-21( and 21 is uppermost to be included) which I believe include niddah laws. I beleive Yeshua cleans us up spiritually, but as a Messianic believers we are given the instructions how to do our part of cleaning ourselves up physically, and these can be found in Torah.
6.Do not believe the 7 feasts of the L-RD are still to be celebrated in memorial ( we don't have the temple) and replacement holi-days like easter and christmas should be celebrated instead. Or are at least at the understanding level and are dealing with it within their family structure.

7. Believe that the Torah is "evil, done away with, nailed to the cross', nullified, not fully given , word for word by G-d to Moshe.

8. Lastly, I don't believe you should be called a Messianic believer if you don't believe that Yeshua was the promised Messiah to the nation of Israel, and that that promise was made by HaShem who promised to save, who promised to save his people with an outstreatched arm, which he did when he appeared in the flesh so that men could see him, and stretched out his arms, willingly on the tree and became the ultimate atonement. That Yeshua is not just the 'annointed one' but the one promised in the garden, the seed of a woman, to reverse what Adam had done. In other words you must believe Yeshua is not the G-d for the gentiles, the G-d of the 'New Testement' but he is the same G-d, yesterday today and tomorrow, the same who spoke with Moshe, and ate with Abraham, the same who Jacob, who is Israel, claimed to have wrestled with, physically, as G-d. Yeshua IS G-d. And as Yeshua states in the gospel of John, 'I and the Father are one', Not one who doubts, and says, 'show me the Father', like Phillip did, but understands this as Yeshua said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father".

Well maybe that was more than two shekels. :blush:

[MattyJames]

Bravo to you Zayit...couldn't have said it better myself. :wave:

Regards,

Matt James

[Tishri1]

I believe everyone deserves a:thumbsup: here ...Z, your check list is awesome, can I add a few of my own in the "negative" catagory...


1. A messianic should not carry animosity in their hearts toward other believers (Jew or Gentile),obviously, as that would be counter productive to their calling and make them an easy prey to the enemy...This IMO is the #1 way the enemy seeks to destroy the Messianic and the Messianic Movement.

2. A messianic should never take a stand against the Jewish Nation, as this is not Biblical and we see no example of it anywhere in the Bible. Also JMO but as I search out the scriptures, I never see true believers attempting to harm or adding support to any one else who attemps to or harms Jews....IMHO we are to follow Torah and bless Israel (and then be blessed as well).

3. A messianic should be prepared for when their loved ones and society around them have a negative attitude toward them, and when it happens, to grow through that rejection, not giving HaSatan a chance to plant a seed of bitterness in their heart over this.

If you dont become shocked and appauled at every sign of rejection, but calmly say "Oh yeh, this is what Yeshua said to expect as the days get darker,and here it is (as Hasatan is at work in these last days to kill every believer anyway he can)...Ok ABBA I will respond in faith and love and power..." then you are fulfilling a huge part of your calling as a Messianic... Again IMO this is the fruit that comes from being a Messianic...You can persecute them, but they will become even stronger spiritually and bear more fruit when you do, because they follow the example of Yeshua and remember his words. We should be a light to the nations in this way (this is not to say that you are looking around for that to happen, but when ever it does, even in the little things, practise the right response now and grow though it so you will be strong when big things come your way)

IMO this is soooo important for the Messianic in a huge way, as their shoes are difficult, at times, to walk in...For that reason and for the fact that our days ARE getting darker and the birthpains are getting stronger, I felt a reminder of our calling to resist evil these three ways was in order.....:wave:

[plum]

I believe that an adherant to Messianic Judaism is not necessarily always Jewish. I believe there are Jewish and Gentile Messianics alike. For this reason, I do not ever call my self a Messianic Jew (since I'm not Jewish) but rather I call myself simply a Messianic beleiver.

I beleive that the faith itself is correctly called Messianic Judaism, but followers are more simply Messianic beleivers. I feel this is more inclusive.

I do not think that Torah observance should be a criteria...before you all stone me, hear me out. If Torah observance is a criteria, then we must decide how MUCH Torah must be observed before one "qualifies" as Messianic. I would rather not be in a position of judging my fellow believer in that way.

I would offer the following criteria....

1. A Messianic should be, first and foremost, a believer.

2. A Messianic should see the New Testament as a continuation of the Old Testament...not a replacement.

3. A Messianic should be praying and studying and considering Torah observance to some degree...even if they have not implemented any changes...it really is about the heart...I think they should be accepted the moment their heart turns down the path...even before the fruit is produced...but maybe that's just me.

I think that possibly an even broader definition could be given...there are some out there that have never heard of us...and yet, they feel in their hearts the need to restore what Constantine cost us 1700 years ago...would they not also be considered Messianic?


I concur with the above whleheartedly.

Some posts in this thread seem to say what a messianic should possibly look like at the middle/end of the journey, not the beginning. I find this to be intimidating to newcomers to the faith. how observant must they be before you think they're good enough to be Messianic? the quoted post above speaks of this. I don't ask that in debate, just for rhetorical purposes...



I think a Messianic is someone with a Hebraic worldview... someone who traces their "spiritual heritage" back even before Yeshua (which is from where most Christians trace their lineage) and lives in a way that encompases and embraces this spiritual heritage from the beginning, desiring to follow the entire Written and Incarnate Word of G-d.

And I will continue to consider any further thoughts that I may add at a later date...

[Mela'h]

Wow, wonderful replys so far:) They confirm what is in my heart - to worship Abba in spirit and in truth.http://www3.christianforums.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[P_G]

Yes this is all great stuff

Maybe one of the more profitable threads we ever had!

You all are blessing me with your responses

PG

[hadara]

1. A messianic is a person who has accepted Christ as their Saviour. He belives Yeshua is God's Son, in the resurrection, and that Yeshua will come again for His Church.


2. He knows he has been saved not by works of the law, but by grace alone, as King David knew also, and spoke of the blessedness of those who do not work for wages, but trust in God to not impute sin unto them.
A messianic does not follow the Torah to be saved. His righteousness comes from Yeshua.


3. He does not have fellowship with unbelievers.


4. The Holy Bible alone is God's book.


5. A messianic does not follow the commandments of men.


6. A messianic does use the Torah to judge others. He wants unity, and does not judge the Christian community. He strives for unity among all believers.


7. A messianic knows that Yeshua is the only way to God, the only mediator, and that no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born again. A messianic agrees with galatians 3:21 - "If our works of the law could earn us a right standing with God, then Yeshua died in vain."

8. A messianic realizes that he or she cannot keep the whole law, and is humble about it. This humble heart keep them from judging others.


9. A messianic keeps the sabbath, the feast days, and all other torah rules that he can follow by the grace of God.

10 A messianic loves all nations equally. He prays earnestly that the Lord of the harvest would send workers into the harvest field. He shares the good news with anyone who will listen!!!!

[Kalanit]

I do not believe you should be called a Messianic believer, even if you are born Jewish or have Jewish blood on one side or another of your family tree if you:

1. Are Anti-semetic (and yes they do exist)
2. Are anti-zionist ( don't believe that Jews have a right to be in the land promised to the forefathers)
3. Believe that the Church has replaced Israel, in anything.
4. Do not keep ( or are working towards) keeping Shabbat in the biblical way, not in the church defined way of 'sunday' or anyday you pick ( I know this can be contentious, but I am generally speaking of not doing common things that can be done the other 6 days of the week from sundown 6th day to sundown 7th day. Doing work that glorifys the L-RD is exempt as in tabernacle times and Yeshuas teachings. )
5. Are not striving to remove uncleaness from their lives, in doing their part in this by practicing some form of Kosher eating, and at least abiding by the starting point of Acts 15:19-21( and 21 is uppermost to be included) which I believe include niddah laws. I beleive Yeshua cleans us up spiritually, but as a Messianic believers we are given the instructions how to do our part of cleaning ourselves up physically, and these can be found in Torah.
6.Do not believe the 7 feasts of the L-RD are still to be celebrated in memorial ( we don't have the temple) and replacement holi-days like easter and christmas should be celebrated instead. Or are at least at the understanding level and are dealing with it within their family structure.

7. Believe that the Torah is "evil, done away with, nailed to the cross', nullified, not fully given , word for word by G-d to Moshe.

AMEIN! I agree 100%
I know Jews who are believers, but stay comfortable in their gentile churches and make absolutely NO effort to live as a Jew. So, those guys don't count.

[Tishri1]

The thing about being a Messianic is this common desire for the same things...and that desire seems to be the same in all Messianics, and that desire always seems to be :

1. Shabbat and the Festivals
2. Kosher Diet
3. A deeper understanding of ABBA's teaching and instruction (Torah)

He seems to be gathering us from all over the place and putting this same desire for the same things in all of us at the same time in history....it's like a fulfilling of something....;)
TNK Isaiah 42:4 He shall not grow dim or be bruised Till he has established the true way on earth; And the coastlands shall await his teaching (Torah).
NLT Isaiah 42:4 He will not stop until truth and righteousness prevail throughout the earth. Even distant lands beyond the sea will wait for his instruction (Torah).
YLT Isaiah 42:4 He doth not become weak nor bruised, Till he setteth judgment in the earth, And for his law (Torah) isles wait with hope.
:wave:

[visionary]

The thing about being a Messianic is this common desire for the same things...and that desire seems to be the same in all Messianics, and that desire always seems to be :

1. Shabbat and the Festivals
2. Kosher Diet
3. A deeper understanding of ABBA's teaching and instruction (Torah)

He seems to be gathering us from all over the place and putting this same desire for the same things in all of us at the same time in history....it's like a fulfilling of something....;):wave:Amen, Yes..:thumbsup: God 's hand is upon this movement, to fill the breaches and build the wall of righteouness.
Amos 9:11
In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old::clap:

[yod]

It is understanding the hebraic scriptures called "The Bible" in a hebraic way; and for a gentile it is identifying oneself with Israel and the jewish people even as Caleb and Ruth did.

[DiedwithChrist]

Should we read the Bible in only a Hebraic way? For there is much error in Hebraism-Israel rejects for example Isaiah 53:12. Let us read the Bible by the Holy Spirit instead, rightly dividing the Word, the "sword of the Spirit".

[DiedwithChrist]

Why don't you try to show me how you think I misread it, otherwise how is anyone to know what you are really thinking?

[Sephania]

Closing for staff review and clean-up

When it is re-opened please regard the OP's directive in the answering of this OP. It is not a debate thread and is for Messianics ( Torah scroll icon) only to answer.


All posts not fitting that criteria below will be removed.

Thank you
Zayit


Please before you post read the OP

This is a question posed ONLY to those who have a Messianic Icon
Other posts will be deleted

Please share your opinions and spend as much space as you need to expound
But please NO DEBATE