Does Jesus have to first ask you to be Saved? [Archive]

aReformedPatriot

31st August 2006, 06:17 PM

Hello all,

I grew up Babtist and then in adulthood became nondenomiational. I went to my parents church a few weeks ago and the preacher said, that a person can not just call out to Jesus to be saved, but they first have to be convicted by the spirit. I was wondering if this is true where is it in the bible? So those people in my home church who pray the prayer ie.. I am a sinner, please forgive me, I believe in you and confess you as my savior" if what this pastor said, then they do not receive Christ... because the spirit has to invite them? Under conviction is what I think he said.

Any thoughts or help where this is in the bible?

Thank you Faith

This is correct. Man, in his fallen state (Eph 2), can do neither good nor seek after God. For without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb 11:6). Recall what Paul writes, "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God" (Rom 3:10-11). So since in our evil nature we can do no good prior to Christ nor do we seek him ourselves, who or what then brings us to that place? It must be some external influence upon us. Now turn to John 6:44 for your answer:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

The text makes it plain that not just anyone can come to faith in the Lord. The Father must draw. This illuminates the sovereignty of God: By implication and by the mere fact that many will perish in hell, the Lord deliberately chooses to call some, and not others. It is explicit in John's Gospel that the man who is called will be raised up on the last day. Why does God call some and not others? He states this in Romans 9:22-23:

"What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory"

Therefore:

"So then it depends not on human will or exertion,but on God, who has mercy" (Rom 9:16).

One of the biggest misunderstandings of the Gospel is that if you say a prayer you can be saved. But rather your heart must be made alive by the Father to recieve Christ first.

faithseeker4ever

31st August 2006, 06:25 PM

aReformedPatriot

31st August 2006, 06:39 PM

Both of you make sense.. though Mr. Envoy it scares me to think that God chooses who to call.. why would he let those who are going to hell be born? Is this the predestined thing people talk about. And do you know what universal antoinment means? Thank you

And how does one know what a persons log on name is. I find this site sometimes too visually busy lol.

Yes, this is the predestined thing people talk about. This theme of predestination/election is present throughout all of Scripture: The Call of Abram; Jacob over Esau; Israel so on and so forth. Romans 9, therefore, is the scariest chapter in all of scripture, in my opinion. You see, when God chooses not to call some to faith in Christ, he is simply allowing them to live according to the nature they have chosen. They are free to walk in their sin and their condemnation is just. Yet God, out of supreme mercy and love, has decided to work his plan of salvation for some. He is neither unjust nor unfair in this matter for it would be equally fair and just for him to have let all die in their sin.

And yes, I know what universal atonement is. It is heresy. If Christ's sacrifice were efficacious for all because he died for all, then there would be no payment due for sins left. As such, all would be covered by the blood of the lamb and all would be saved. This is the implication of this viewpoint. The Bible makes it explicitly clear that the path to hell is wide and many will go that route. We must conclude therefore, that the texts which say that Christ died for the world, he was referring to those whom the Father would draw only.

I reccomend you read Ephesians 1-14 and Romans 9 with John 6:37, 44 in mind.

mont974x4

31st August 2006, 06:46 PM

faithseeker4ever

31st August 2006, 06:57 PM

aReformedPatriot

31st August 2006, 06:59 PM

Altho it may seem unfair that God would allow some to go to hell it shows He is just. If universal atonement were true it would cheapen everything He did, and does, for His children.

One of the biggest issues many have with the docrine of predestination or election is that many consider it opposong free will. While my finite mind can not fully understand it both the following statements are true:
God is sovereign
Man has free will

Check out Romans chapter 6-8.

The idea of freewill needs to be understood in context:

- God cannot act contrary to his nature
- Humans cannot act contrary to their nature

Human nature is fallen > without faith it is impossible to please God > none seek after God > therefore man just chooses one sin over the other (though man may be good on a man to man level) prior to Christ.

Man is not really free as he is in bondage. But God let's him freely operate in that.

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--

When the Father draws a man to Christ, he so moves in man's heart that man freely comes to him in faith. If he does not, a lost man is just as happy in rejecting God for that is his nature.

A saved man now has the ability to either choose righteousness or choose sin. Now he has faith and though wrong, he is being sanctified and perfected and repentance must (and will) occur.

Pepperoni

31st August 2006, 06:59 PM

. . . it scares me to think that God chooses who to call..
I believe that God chooses us rather than us choosing him . . .

Ephesians 1:4-6 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

and

II Thessalonians 2:13-14 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

aReformedPatriot

31st August 2006, 07:04 PM

If God choses who he will have come to heaven.. How do I know I am one of them? I asked Jesus to come into my heart when I was 13 and I try to live for Him, and He through me. But what if I am not one of the choosen ones and am just lying to myself that I was saved? I felt different.. I am scared of God.. I believe in him (although I realize that does not man alot because the devil believes in him to).. So how do I really know?

Thank you for your patience.. I am really trying hard to understand as much as I can.

Faith

A good question indeed. John writes in his epistles that we can know that we are saved. The very fact that you have placed faith in Christ is a pretty good indication. Repentance of sin is fruit of that. Ultimately if one was never saved in the first place he will leave the flock of God:

1 Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Take cheer and do not fret. Evaluate yourself and view the change in your life. If sin brings sorrow to your heart, be ecouraged that Christ is your advocate. As the author of Hebrews writes, "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Heb 11:1).

faithseeker4ever

31st August 2006, 07:05 PM

so he does not choose all of us? Then why do we witness and try to bring others to Christ if they may or may not be the choosen ones.. Whew this is a new thought to me.

faithseeker4ever

31st August 2006, 07:11 PM

aReformedPatriot

31st August 2006, 07:13 PM

so he does not choose all of us? Then why do we witness and try to bring others to Christ if they may or may not be the choosen ones.. Whew this is a new thought to me.

The simple answer is that he commands us to do so. ;) The more complex answer is that we are the insturments through which the Gospel which saves man is to be proclaimed. Whether it be through written word or from our lips, we are to rejoice in and spread that message. The word is the vehicle through which God has revealed himself and is the harbinger of faith. We are to offer the Gospel freely to all and pray for the salvation of all. God in his omnipotence and sovereignty has chosen what is best. Not only that, but we do not know who will be saved and who will be lost just that God uses us for his purposes.

Pepperoni

31st August 2006, 07:13 PM

so he does not choose all of us? Then why do we witness and try to bring others to Christ if they may or may not be the choosen ones.. Whew this is a new thought to me.
I'm not sure what you mean by "all of us." All of us Christians? All of us in the world? Of course He doesn't choose all of us (in the world) or else there would be no hell because no one would be going there--everyone would be saved . . . I do believe anyone who is a true Christian has been chosen by Him.

Unfortunately we have no idea who He has called and who He has not. I think we can only know that about ourselves.

P.S. I like The Lord's Envoy's post (above this one) better. ;)

Pepperoni

31st August 2006, 07:16 PM

Growing up baptist you always live with guilt and fear.
:)

aReformedPatriot

31st August 2006, 07:20 PM

A terrible thing happened to me and I turned away from God for a long time. I taught my children to belive in him, but do not count on him to always help. Then of course I came around and ask God to forgive me.. and I forgave Him. Growing up baptist you always live with guilt and fear. I was hoping for some joy and peace with God. I will fret now .. it is my nature as God knows :)) And I do not have great faith.. of a musterseed yes.. and I did read that is all I need, but I would like total undeniable and ultimate faith and trust in our Lord

Faith

Either you were not saved in the past or you were and just became extremely rebellious and have come back like the prodigal son. Only you and God know. There are days, quite often, where I've actually freted. This too is sin and shows the lack of confidence I have in my salvation. But something crazy keeps happening: repentance and sorrow is constantly produced in my heart over my sin and it brings me joy to know that I cannot be righteous on my own, but rather my righteousness come from Christ himself. Faith grows as a result of discipleship. So be mindful about moving forward and not backward in your faith. Rest your heart, but never become complacent. Run the race as Paul writes.

faithseeker4ever

31st August 2006, 07:26 PM

aReformedPatriot

31st August 2006, 07:34 PM

brings me joy to know that I cannot be righteous on my own, but rather my righteousness come from Christ himself.

This brings me joy too.. Ok I have a lot to read so thank you for your help. Talk to you soon again I hope. God bless you.

Faith

:) Your welcome. A good book to pick up is this one here if your ever interested: Knowing God (http://www.amazon.com/Knowing-God-J-I-Packer/dp/083081650X/sr=8-1/qid=1157067153/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-7776361-0524744?ie=UTF8&s=books)

Razorbuck

1st September 2006, 09:53 AM

Lord's Envoy, can I be saved? Can I escape the torments of hell? And if so, how?

Seeker of the Truth

1st September 2006, 11:24 AM

mlqurgw

1st September 2006, 11:46 AM

Lord's Envoy, can I be saved? Can I escape the torments of hell? And if so, how?I hope you don't mind if I answer. :) Can you be saved? Yes, if you trust Christ alone for all your salvation you not only can be saved you are. Faith is the evidence of salvation wrought in the heart. Read 1Thess. 1:4-10. Paul gives the evidence of their election of God in those verses. All of the elect were saved in the purpose of God before the foundation of the world. 2Tim. 1:9 and were actually saved by the death and ressurection of Christ in time. Gal. 4:4,5 and come to knowledge of that salvation by faith in Christ. Rom. 5:5, Eph. 2:1,4-10. Paul even says he is bound to thank God for the election of the Thessalonian believers in 2Thess. 2:13 I say this in all honesty and love, man is willing to give up everything in order to get to Heaven except the one thing that is vital, his will.

mlqurgw

1st September 2006, 11:58 AM

the idea of predistination is ridiculous, why would God send people to hell?

this idea creates problems, everywhere... why seek out people to share the gospe of Christ? then there's no point in praying... then if God predestined everything, he created sin...

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

think about thatGod sends people to Hell because it is the just reward of their sin. The idea of predestination is the second most prominant doctrine taught in the Scriptures.
We share the gospel because we love people and desire that they be saved but that has nothing to do with whether God does. We do not know who the elect are and therefore preach to all. God is the one who makes the gospel to affect the heart. It is clear from both the Scriptures and experience that He doesn't do that for all.
The idea that God created sin is a subject of debate but has no bearing on the clearly stated truths of Scripture concerning the issue of predestination. Actually it is a red herring argument meant to deflect attention away from that which is clearly stated in the Bible.

Do you honestly think we haven't thought about John 3:16? The Scriptural view of God's predestination fits perfectly with John 3:16.

Erinwilcox

1st September 2006, 12:24 PM

Razorbuck

1st September 2006, 12:50 PM

I hope you don't mind if I answer. :) Can you be saved? Yes, if you trust Christ alone for all your salvation you not only can be saved you are. Faith is the evidence of salvation wrought in the heart. Read 1Thess. 1:4-10. Paul gives the evidence of their election of God in those verses. All of the elect were saved in the purpose of God before the foundation of the world. 2Tim. 1:9 and were actually saved by the death and ressurection of Christ in time. Gal. 4:4,5 and come to knowledge of that salvation by faith in Christ. Rom. 5:5, Eph. 2:1,4-10. Paul even says he is bound to thank God for the election of the Thessalonian believers in 2Thess. 2:13 I say this in all honesty and love, man is willing to give up everything in order to get to Heaven except the one thing that is vital, his will.

I thank you for your sincere reply.

Your last statement says it all. Man must surrender his will to receive the promised gift of life in Christ. I would expand that to say ANY man, woman or child who trusts Christ receives the gift.

No exceptions, to the eternal praise of His glory.

Razorbuck

1st September 2006, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by spsucj http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=26378509#post26378509)
the idea of predistination is ridiculous, why would God send people to hell?

Whatever happened to the basic concept of God's inherent JUSTICE?

If God just forgave the entire human race of their sins and that was it, would that be just? Definitely not. Sin deserves punishmen, not mercy. A just God would send everyone to hell. But, God is MERCIFUL as well as JUST.

Besides, if God created everything, doesn't He have RIGHT to do with it as he wills? (Read Romans 8 and 9)

I may be wrong, but I believe spsucj is referring to predestination to hell rather than universalism.

I AM predestined...to become conformed to the image of Christ.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did
predestinate to be conformed to the
image of his Son, that he might be the
firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:29

mlqurgw

1st September 2006, 01:05 PM

I may be wrong, but I believe spsucj is referring to predestination to hell rather than universalism.

I AM predestined...to become conformed to the image of Christ.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did
predestinate to be conformed to the
image of his Son, that he might be the
firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:29
According to Eph. 1:5 believers are also predestined to be adopted. That has a very soteriological inference especially considering it in the context of of verse 4 and the rest of the chapter.

Razorbuck

1st September 2006, 01:20 PM

According to Eph. 1:5 believers are also predestined to be adopted. That has a very soteriological inference especially considering it in the context of of verse 4 and the rest of the chapter.

I agree completely, and would go even farther and state that it is not just an "inference", but is stated in unequivocal terms!

It does not teach, however, that our LORD predestines folks to hell, but believers to the adoption.

mlqurgw

1st September 2006, 01:30 PM

I agree completely, and would go even farther and state that it is not just an "inference", but is stated in unequivocal terms!

It does not teach, however, that our LORD predestines folks to hell, but believers to the adoption.
I do understand yet other passages seem to make it at least a thought provoking concept, Rom. 9:21-24 for example.

Razorbuck

1st September 2006, 01:49 PM

I do understand yet other passages seem to make it at least a thought provoking concept, Rom. 9:21-24 for example.

Excellent reference, but I don't believe it teaches predestination to hell either. If so, in what sense has our Father "endured with much longsuffering" the vessels HE fitted to destruction? Hell is unrepentant man's destination to be sure, but not because our LORD created men for that specific purpose. It was created not for man, but "for the devil and his angels." (Matthew 25:41)

mlqurgw

1st September 2006, 02:14 PM

Excellent reference, but I don't believe it teaches predestination to hell either. If so, in what sense has our Father "endured with much longsuffering" the vessels HE fitted to destruction? Hell is unrepentant man's destination to be sure, but not because our LORD created men for that specific purpose. It was created not for man, but "for the devil and his angels." (Matthew 25:41)
First, let me make it clear that my belief is that God simply gives those who are vessels of wrath their own way. At the same time I must bow to the Scriptures that seem to teach that He did predestinate some to Hell based on His own purpose of grace and wisdom such as Prov. 16:4, Rom. 11:36, 1Cor. 8:6, Rev. 4:11. God does what He pleases, Psa. 115;3, Isa. 46:9-11

Razorbuck

1st September 2006, 02:36 PM

First, let me make it clear that my belief is that God simply gives those who are vessels of wrath their own way. At the same time I must bow to the Scriptures that seem to teach that He did predestinate some to Hell based on His own purpose of grace and wisdom such as Prov. 16:4, Rom. 11:36, 1Cor. 8:6, Rev. 4:11. God does what He pleases, Psa. 115;3, Isa. 46:9-11

I seek no contention brother, and appreciate the tone of your discourse.

Like you, I have studied the passages you cite and while I see a sovereign LORD at work in them, I do not find the teaching that God predestines anyone to damnation. Yet we can disagree and still honor one another as brothers though, eh?

And give GOD the glory...

unworthy but His,

Razorbuck

mlqurgw

1st September 2006, 02:48 PM

I seek no contention brother, and appreciate the tone of your discourse.

Like you, I have studied the passages you cite and while I see a sovereign LORD at work in them, I do not find the teaching that God predestines anyone to damnation. Yet we can disagree and still honor one another as brothers though, eh?

And give GOD the glory...

unworthy but His,

Razorbuck
We both do and ought to stand for what we honestly believe the Word of God teaches and I have no problem with that. I am left wondering where we disagree if we do.

aReformedPatriot

1st September 2006, 05:44 PM

How I greatly enjoy the new multi-quote function. Greetings Razorbuck & spsucj. I will address your concens below:

Lord's Envoy, can I be saved? Can I escape the torments of hell? And if so, how?

Yes, but not on your own. The Father must first draw you to his Son, Jesus Christ, through the hearing of the gospel (John 6:44). When this happens, a change takes place in your heart so that you are inclined toward God, because he is drawing you, and it is now possible to place your faith in him. The definition of faith is as stated above in Heb 11:1 and is further evidenced by the belief in your heart and the confessing of him with your mouth (Rom 10:9-10). For it is by your fruits and your words that we recognize someone who is saved. Your salvation begins with God and is dependent on his call.

Can you explain the logical conclusion of John 6:44 concerning those he does not call?

the idea of predistination is ridiculous, why would God send people to hell?

this idea creates problems, everywhere... why seek out people to share the gospe of Christ? then there's no point in praying... then if God predestined everything, he created sin...

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

think about that

I have and John 3:16 makes no sense without reformed theology. What you are saying, though you may or may not realize it, is that Christ made atonement for the sins of all people and that theorhetically all could be saved. But the facts we know from scripture are contrary to this. Not all will be saved.

You see, the atonement was limited to those whom God predestined in the past to be saved. They are not actually saved until the respond to the son in faith though. This is evidenced by Christ who says, "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep" (Jn 10:11, cf. v. 15). This is seen further by turning to Romans 8:32 which reads, "He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?" Paul makes it clear that the connection between not sparing his son "for us all" and giving them "all things" in the very next verse when he limits these things to the elect: "Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies" (v. 33). Furthermore, Paul further reveals it in Eph 5:25 when he says, "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her." Here it is explicit that Christ was given to "her" only, that is the church, and the church is those who are saved. Thus in this brief cross-section of the revelation of scripture, Christ did not make atonement for the whole world, but rather a very small portion of it, namely those whom the Father predestined in the past to recieve it. Recall John 6:44 that no one comes to the Son lest the Father draw him and those whom he calls he will raise up on the last day.

"How then can the gospel be freely offered to all because it seems like it is not a genuine offer?" Well that is a very good question to have my friend. Firstly, we do not know who was predestined only that the Lord has ordained that people first hear the gospel. They are predestined to be saved, not saved from the past remember? So the same God who works all things to the good of those he calls, works out their coming to him. Secondly, if atonement was made for all then those who enter hell are forced to make a "second payment" for sin which we both know is nonsense because Christ payed for the punishment of sin on the cross. But rather ALL who come to Christ in faith are saved because that is who Christ died for.

In conclusion God's not calling some to salvation is an excercise in his perfect judgment and justice. Those God has predestined to be saved don't come kicking and screaming because they are forced. They freely come because God has drawn them. On the reciprocal, those whom God did not call never can say that the Gospel was never there. They are children of wrath, followers of Satan who never seek after God. Their damnation is on their heads because they have wilfully sinned against a perfect God. So then we see that they are left to live according to their fallen nature.

I thank you for your sincere reply.

Your last statement says it all. Man must surrender his will to receive the promised gift of life in Christ. I would expand that to say ANY man, woman or child who trusts Christ receives the gift.

No exceptions, to the eternal praise of His glory.

How very calvinist of you! We agree. :)

Again, I repeat myself. This process does not begin in man but in God the Father who has elected certain individuals to be drawn to his son. Man has a responsibility to respond that must not be diminished. But those whom God calls will respond and any who trusts recieves the gift as you say.

I may be wrong, but I believe spsucj is referring to predestination to hell rather than universalism.

I AM predestined...to become conformed to the image of Christ.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did
predestinate to be conformed to the
image of his Son, that he might be the
firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:29

Again we agree. ;)

However, the idea here is not that God looked into the future and saw who would accept him and then predestined him on the basis of man's decision in the future. For that makes salvation dependent on one's work, a dangerous place to be. But rather God's foreknowledge of you is not a foreknowledge of the mere fact that you will choose him, but rather is a "knowing" of the most intimate sort. 1 Cor 8:3 and Gal 4:9 provide clearer examples of this. The knowledge of mere facts is not at the forefront here but a knowledge of persons in connection to those who have a saving relationship to him. So yea, God is working his will out in your life. How does it feel you pawn, you? :P

Excellent reference, but I don't believe it teaches predestination to hell either. If so, in what sense has our Father "endured with much longsuffering" the vessels HE fitted to destruction? Hell is unrepentant man's destination to be sure, but not because our LORD created men for that specific purpose. It was created not for man, but "for the devil and his angels." (Matthew 25:41)

You are right when you say hell was not originally intended for us. But unfortunately, through the fall, all of Adam's posterity are headed that way without divine intervention. Hence our agreed need for Christ. But that does not negate the fact that people are going there because God has sovereignly passed over some for salvation while bearing in mind that justice is deserved for sin against God in the first place. His act of election highlights his mercy as is the intention of these verses.

holdon

1st September 2006, 06:39 PM

Alternate view on preaching the Gospel. Part I.

If the foregoing be, in any measure, the language of the reader — if it be, at all, the expression of his difficulty, we would, in the first place, call his attention to two words which occur in our precious test (John 3:16), namely, "world" and "whosoever." It seems utterly impossible for anyone to refuse the application of these two words. For what, let us ask, is the meaning of the term "world"? What does it embrace? or, rather, what does it not embrace? When our Lord declares that "God so loved the world," on what ground can the reader exclude himself from the range, scope, and application of this divine love? On no other ground whatever, unless he can show that he alone belongs not to the world, but to some other sphere of being. If it were declared that "the world" is hopelessly condemned, could anyone making a part of that world avoid the application of the sentence! Could he exclude himself from it? Impossible. How then can he — why should he — exclude himself, when it is a question of God's free love, and of salvation by Christ Jesus?

But, further, we would ask, What is the meaning, what is the force of the familiar word, "whosoever"? Assuredly it means "anybody", and if anybody, why not the reader? It is infinitely better, infinitely surer, and more satisfactory to find the word "whosoever" in the gospel than to find my own name there, inasmuch as there may be a thousand persons in the world of the same name; but "whosoever" applies to me as distinctly as though I were the only sinner on the face of the earth.

Thus, then, the very words of the gospel message — the very terms used to set forth the glad tidings, are such as leave no possible ground for a difficulty as to their application. If we listen to our Lord in the days of His flesh, we hear such words as these: "God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him might not perish, but have everlasting life." Again, if we listen to Him after His resurrection, we hear these words, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature" (Mark 16). And lastly, if we listen to the voice of the Holy Ghost sent from a risen, ascended, and glorified Lord, we hear such words as these: "The same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him. For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Rom. 10: 12-13).

In all the above-cited passages we have two terms used, one general, the other particular, and both together so presenting the message of salvation as to leave no room whatever for anyone to refuse its application. If "all the world" is the scope, and "every creature" is the object of the precious gospel of Christ, then, on what ground can anyone exclude himself? Where is there authority for any sinner out of hell to say that the glad tidings of salvation are not for him? There is none. Salvation is as free as the air we breathe — free as the dewdrops that refresh the earth — free as the sunbeams that shine upon our pathway; and if any attempt to limit its application, they are neither in harmony with the mind of Christ, nor in sympathy with the heart of God.

But it may be that some of our readers would, at this stage of the subject, feel disposed to ask us, "How do you dispose of the question of election?" We reply, "Very simply, by leaving it where God has placed it, namely, as a landmark in the inheritance of the spiritual Israel, and not as a stumbling-block in the pathway of the anxious inquirer." This we believe to be the true way of dealing with the deeply important doctrine of election. The more we ponder the subject, the more thoroughly are we convinced that it is a mistake on the part of the evangelist or preacher of the gospel to qualify his message, hamper his subject, or perplex his hearers, by the doctrine of election or predestination. He has to do with lost sinners in the discharge of his blessed ministry. He meets men where they are, on the broad ground of our common ruin, our common guilt, our common condemnation. He meets them with a message of full, free, present, personal, and eternal salvation — a message which comes fresh, fervent, and glowing from the very bosom of God. His ministry is, as the Holy Ghost declares in 2 Cor. 5, "a ministry of reconciliation," the glorious characteristics of which are these, "God in Christ" . . . "reconciling the world unto Himself' . . . "not imputing their trespasses"; and the marvellous foundation of which is, that God has made Jesus who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Does this trench, in the smallest degree, upon the blessed and clearly established truth of election? By no means. It leaves it, in all its integrity and in its full value, as a grand fundamental truth of Holy Scripture exactly where God has placed it; not as a preliminary question to be settled ere the sinner comes to Jesus, but as a most precious consolation and encouragement to him when he has come. This makes all the difference. If the sinner be called upon to settle beforehand the question of his election, how is he to set about it? Whither is he to turn for a solution? Where shall he find a divine warrant for believing that he is one of the elect? Can he find a single line of Scripture on which to base his faith as to his election? He cannot. He can find scores of passages declaring him to be lost, guilty and undone — scores of passages to assure him of his total inability to do aught in the matter of his own salvation — hundreds of passages unfolding the free love of God, the value and efficacy of the atonement of Christ, and assuring him of a hearty welcome to come Just as he is, and make God's blessed salvation his own. But if it be needed for him to settle the prior question of his predestination and election, then is his case hopeless, and he must, in so far as he is in earnest, be plunged in black despair.

And is it not thus with thousands at this moment through the misapplication of the doctrine of election? We fully believe it is, and hence our anxiety to help our readers by setting the matter in what we judge to be the true light before their minds. We believe it to be of the utmost importance for the anxious inquirer to know that the standpoint from which he is called to view the cross of Christ is not the standpoint of election, but of conscious ruin. The grace of God meets him as a lost, dead, guilty sinner; not as an elect one. This is an unspeakable mercy, inasmuch as he knows he is the former, but cannot know that he is the latter until the gospel has come to him in power. "Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God." How did he know it? "Because our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance" (1 Thess. 1: 4-5). Paul preached to the Thessalonians as lost sinners; and when the gospel had laid hold of them as lost, he could write to them as elect.

This puts election in its right place. If the reader will turn for a moment to Acts 17, he will there see how Paul discharged his business as an evangelist amongst the Thessalonians: "Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews. And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three Sabbath days reasoned with them out of the Scriptures, opening and alleging that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus whom I preach unto you is Christ." So, also, in that passage at the opening of 1 Cor. 15: "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day, according to the Scriptures" (ver. 1-4).

From this passage, and many others which might be quoted, we learn that the apostle preached not merely a doctrine, but a person. He did not preach election. He taught it to saints, but never preached it to sinners. This should be the evangelist's model at all times. We never once find the apostles preaching election. They preached Christ — they unfolded the goodness of God — His loving-kindness — His tender mercy — His pardoning love — His gracious readiness to receive all who come in their true character and condition as lost sinners. Such was their mode of preaching, or, rather, such was the mode of the Holy Ghost in them; and such, too, was the mode of the blessed Master Himself. "Come unto Me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." "If any man thirst, let him come unto Me and drink." "Him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out" (Matt. 11; John 6-7).

holdon

1st September 2006, 06:41 PM

Part II

Here are no stumbling-blocks in the way of anxious inquirers — no preliminary questions to be settled — no conditions to be fulfilled — no theological difficulties to be solved. No, the sinner is met on his own ground — met as he is — met just now. There is rest for the weary, drink for the thirsty, life for the dead, pardon for the guilty, salvation for the lost. Do these free invitations touch the doctrine of election? Assuredly not. And what is more, the doctrine of election does not touch them. In other words, a full and free gospel leaves perfectly untouched the grand and all-important truth of election; and the truth of election, in its proper place, leaves the gospel of the grace of God on its own broad and blessed base, and in all its divine length, breadth, and fullness. The gospel meets us as lost, and saves us; and then, when we know ourselves as saved, the precious doctrine of election comes in to establish us in the fact that we can never be lost. It never was the purpose of God that poor anxious souls should be harassed with theological questions or points of doctrine. No; blessed forever be His name, it is His gracious desire that the healing balm of His pardoning love, and the cleansing efficacy of the atoning blood of Jesus, should be applied to the spiritual wounds of every sin-sick soul. And as to the doctrines of predestination and election, He has unfolded them in His Word to comfort His saints, not to perplex poor sinners. They shine like precious gems on the page of inspiration, but they were never intended to lie as stumbling-blocks in the way of earnest seekers after life and peace. They are deposited in the hand of the teacher to be unfolded in the bosom of the family of God; but they are not intended for the evangelist, whose blessed mission is to the highways and hedges of a lost world. They are designed to feed and comfort the children, not to scare and stumble the sinner. We would say, and that with real earnestness, to all evangelists, Do not hamper your preaching with theological questions of any sort or description. Preach Christ. Unfold the deep and everlasting love of a Saviour-God. Seek to bring the guilty, conscience-smitten sinner into the very presence of a pardoning God. Thunder, if you please, if so led, at the conscience — thunder loud at sin — thunder forth the dread realities of the great white throne, the lake of fire, and everlasting torment; but see that you aim at bringing the guilt-stricken conscience to rest in the atoning virtues of the blood of Christ. Then you can hand over the fruits of your ministry to the divinely qualified, to be instructed in the deeper mysteries of the faith of Christ. You may rest assured that the faithful discharge of your duty as an evangelist will never lead you to trespass on the domain of sound theology.
And to the anxious inquirer we would say with equal earnestness, Let nothing stand in your way in coming this moment to Jesus. Let theology speak as it may, you are to listen to the voice of Jesus, who says, "Come unto Me." Be assured there is no hindrance, no difficulty, no hitch, no question, no condition. You are a lost sinner, and Jesus is a full Saviour. Put your trust in Him, and you are saved forever. Believe in Him, and you will know your place amongst the "elect of God" who are "predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son." Bring your sins to Jesus and He will pardon them, cancel them by His blood, and clothe you in a spotless robe of divine righteousness. May God's Spirit lead you now to cast yourself simply and entirely upon that precious, all-sufficient Saviour!
We will now notice, very briefly, three distinct evils resulting from a wrong application of the doctrine of election, namely:
1. The discouragement of really earnest souls, who ought to be helped on in every possible way. If such persons are repulsed by the question of election, the result must be disastrous in the extreme. If they are told that the glad tidings of salvation are only for the elect — that Christ died only for such, and hence only such can be saved — that unless they are elect they have no right to apply to themselves the benefits of the death of Christ: if, in short, they are turned from Jesus to theology — from the heart of a loving, pardoning God to the cold and withering dogmas of systematic divinity, it is impossible to say where they may end; they may take refuge either in superstition on the one hand, or in infidelity on the other. They may end in high church, broad church, or no church at all. What they really want is Christ, the living, loving, precious, all-sufficient Christ of God. He is the true food for anxious souls.
2. But, in the second place, careless souls are rendered more careless still by a false application of the doctrine of election. Such persons, when pressed as to their state and prospects, will fold their arms and say, "You know I cannot believe unless God give me the power. If I am one of the elect, I must be saved; if not, I cannot. I can do nothing, but must wait God's time." All this false and flimsy reasoning should be exposed and demolished. It will not stand for a moment in the light of the judgement-seat of Christ. Each one will learn there that election furnished no excuse whatever, inasmuch as it never was set up by God as a barrier to the sinner's salvation. The word is "Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." The very same form of speech and style of language which removes the stumbling-block from the feet of the anxious inquirer snatches the plea from the lips of the careless rejecter. No one is shut out. All are invited. There is neither barrier on the one hand, nor a plea on the other. All are made welcome; and all are responsible. Hence, if any one presumes to excuse himself for refusing God's salvation, which is as clear as a sunbeam, by urging God's decrees, which are entirely hidden, he will find himself fatally mistaken.
3. And now, in the third and last place, we have frequently seen with real sorrow of heart the earnest, loving, large-hearted evangelist damped and crippled by a false application of the truth of election. This should be most carefully avoided. We hold that it is not the business of the evangelist to preach election. If he is rightly instructed, he will hold it; but if he is rightly directed, he will not preach it.
In a word, then, the precious doctrine of election is not to be a stumbling-block to the anxious — a plea for the careless — a damper to the fervent evangelist. May God's Spirit give us to feel the adjusting power of truth!

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[URL]http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/mackintosh/Bk5/GLADTDGS.html (http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/mackintosh/Bk5/GLADTDGS.html)

JPPT1974

1st September 2006, 11:30 PM

Holdon that is very smart of
You to put this on here
Thanks a lot!:thumbsup:

faithseeker4ever

2nd September 2006, 08:42 AM

christian73

2nd September 2006, 12:56 PM

Hello all:

Though I have read all the scriptures you have sited and I must say.. the predestined thing has some merit.. but then on the other side so does the thought that God saves whosoever believes... so where does that leave my original question?

If God doesnt draw a man or woman to Himself (in other words, if the Holy Spirit doesn't convict a person), how can they believe in Jesus. Do you see what I'm saying? You have to be convicted of your sins before you can call on Him.
I have printed all the posts and it has started a bible study where I work (which means the bible will be open and discussed at a school :). Thank you again to all who posted who cared enough to help me with my question. I like this site and will come here often for the wisdom of others and to help me find the answers or at least the questions that are out there.

That's awesome! Very cool.:clap:

GordonSlocum

2nd September 2006, 01:23 PM

Romans 10 for me is the clearest passage to answer your question.

14. How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15. How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"
16. However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
17. So faith {comes} from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

BBAS 64

2nd September 2006, 10:13 PM

Erinwilcox

2nd September 2006, 11:28 PM

Though I have read all the scriptures you have sited and I must say.. the predestined thing has some merit.. but then on the other side so does the thought that God saves whosoever believes...
Faith

God DOES save whosoever believes.

If someone calls upon the name of the Lord and is saved, then he was predestined to believe.

JacobHall86

3rd September 2006, 12:01 AM

The problem with this line of questions is that it puts God into a Linear timeframe. Which he is not.

God does nto see thigns beginning to end, he sees them as a whole.

Thats why he knows who will and will not choose him. He doenst interfere, but knows. There destiny is chosen by themselves, but God knows what they will choose before the choose it. Thats predestination. Its not predetermination as some want to think it is.

And how can carnal man in his sinful state grasp a concept so great as salvation without help from the one who made all and knows all?

DeaconDean

3rd September 2006, 01:10 AM

Hello all,

I grew up Babtist and then in adulthood became nondenomiational. I went to my parents church a few weeks ago and the preacher said, that a person can not just call out to Jesus to be saved, but they first have to be convicted by the spirit. I was wondering if this is true where is it in the bible? So those people in my home church who pray the prayer ie.. I am a sinner, please forgive me, I believe in you and confess you as my savior" if what this pastor said, then they do not receive Christ... because the spirit has to invite them? Under conviction is what I think he said.

Any thoughts or help where this is in the bible?

Thank you Faith

Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herein are not typical of Baptists in general, nor are they the opinions of CF. The opinions expressed herein are mine and mine alone. I bear the full weight of them.

Jesus said:

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." -John 14:26

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. " -John 16: 7-15

It is the Holy Spirit that draws man to God. It is the Holy Spirit that convicts mankind of their sins. It is the Holy Spirit that regenerates mankind. And it is the Holy Spirit that teaches us all things, and gives us faith and gifts. Now that Jesus has gone back to heaven and is standing on the right hand of God, the Comforter, or Holy Spirit is the One working on earth.

You asked for scriptural proof, there it is in red and white. Now it is up to you as to whether or not you believe it.

God Bless,

Till all are one.

Seeker of the Truth

3rd September 2006, 12:51 PM

no where in the scriptures does it say that God only choose a select few to reside with Him in Heaven, no where... the thought of predestination is taken from a few verses and is twisted to sound like God already choose who he wants in Heaven, which in fact, He didn't... He may already know, but He didn't go out and pick people out. God speaks to everyone and it is their decision to put their faith in Christ.

JacobHall86

3rd September 2006, 12:51 PM

HypoTypoSis

3rd September 2006, 06:49 PM

a person can not just call out to Jesus to be saved, but they first have to be convicted by the spirit.

Hello FaithSeeker4Ever,

John 6:44, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

One must have a willing attitude, a submissive will, in order for God to draw them. Without a submissive will one's will is separate, apart and above that of God's and no one can be drawn to God; dragged maybe, but then that would be against the concept of free will.

John 14:6, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

God will draw a submissively willed individual to His Son, Jesus Christ, so they may come into the presence of The Father.

John 17:21, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:"

As the Father is in Jesus so is Jesus in the Father and we are in both, Jesus and The Father.

John 17:23, "I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one;"

All of us, The Father, The Son, and those that believe in Him shall all be together in One.

John 17:24, "Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world."

We are to be with Jesus where He is and behold the Glory of God which is Jesus, Himself.

John 17:22, "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:"

The glory that God gave Jesus and that is, Jesus, Himself, He has, in turn, given to us; indeed, just as Jesus is the glory of God we have become the glory of Jesus.

1 John 4:8, "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love."

To truly love is to be of God for God is love.

John 17:26, "And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them."

The love of God is in us as Jesus is in us.

And where will this be?

Revelation 21:2, "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

Revelation 21:22, "And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it."

The Father is in Jesus, Jesus is in us and we are in The Father and Jesus.

In this future scenario, where are we?

HypoTypoSis

Seeker of the Truth

4th September 2006, 12:08 AM

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Romans 10:13

For some reason (probably God) this verse really stood out to me during church today... thought i'd post it

Atlantians

4th September 2006, 01:27 AM

HypoTypoSis

4th September 2006, 01:50 AM

I believe he called all to salvation in His word and by the act of His sacrifice.

ahh...uh uh..nope..

Matthew 25:34, "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"

John 17:24, "Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world."

Ephesians 1:4, "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"

Hebrews 4:2-3, "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world."

Romans 8:29, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Romans 8:30, "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

aReformedPatriot

4th September 2006, 07:21 AM

Hello all:

Thank you to everyone for the discussions. I never thought one question would open up a whole new world to me. Though I have read all the scriptures you have sited and I must say.. the predestined thing has some merit.. but then on the other side so does the thought that God saves whosoever believes... so where does that leave my original question? To me it is unanswerable. I know when God wrote our bible not all things were to be answered. I can see why there are different beliefs as well. All I can hope for is that God reveals to my heart where He stands. So with that one simple question it has made me more interested in what are the other big diversial issues the bible presents. I am guessing.. the end of times and how that is to happen is debated..

It is not unanswerable for it is the Gospel. Read this quote by AW Pink (http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Sovereignty/sov_01.htm) and then read the quoted post below:

"How different is the God of the Bible from the God of modern Christendom! The conception of Deity which prevails most widely today, even among those who profess to give heed to the Scriptures, is a miserable caricature, a blasphemous travesty of the Truth. The God of the twentieth century is a helpless, effeminate being who commands the respect of no really thoughtful man. The God of the popular mind is the creation of a maudlin sentimentality. The God of many a present-day pulpit is an object of pity rather than of awe-inspiring reverence. To say that God the Father has purposed the salvation of all mankind, that God the Son died with the express intention of saving the whole human race, and that God the Holy Spirit is now seeking to win the world to Christ; when, as a matter of common observation, it is apparent that the great majority of our fellow-men are dying in sin, and passing into a hopeless eternity: is to say that God the Father is disappointed, that God the Son is dissatisfied, and that God the Holy Spirit is defeated. We have stated the issue baldly, but there is no escaping the conclusion. To argue that God is "trying His best" to save all mankind, but that the majority of men will not let Him save them, is to insist that the will of the Creator is impotent, and that the will of the creature is omnipotent. To throw the blame, as many do, upon the Devil, does not remove the difficulty, for if Satan is defeating the purpose of God, then, Satan is Almighty and God is no longer the Supreme Being."

AW Pink The Sovereignty of God

no where in the scriptures does it say that God only choose a select few to reside with Him in Heaven, no where... the thought of predestination is taken from a few verses and is twisted to sound like God already choose who he wants in Heaven, which in fact, He didn't... He may already know, but He didn't go out and pick people out. God speaks to everyone and it is their decision to put their faith in Christ.

Now see this post? It's empty rhetoric. If people would actually deal with Romans 9, John 6:44, the ideas of limited atonment (etc) which was expressly made mention to this kind sir right here, then we might have some meat to deal with. Doubtful, but perhaps. For I used to believe the same as him and it was without understanding. Pink, I believe, is describing posts like this.

HypoTypoSis

4th September 2006, 08:38 AM

the predestined thing has some merit.. but then on the other side so does the thought that God saves whosoever believes

It's not two sides or views, just one. God knew before He created creation which of us would exercise their free will to choose to accept unquestioning and uncritically on faith His Son's saving grace and He has prepared accordingly.

holdon

4th September 2006, 10:19 AM

"How different is the God of the Bible from the God of modern Christendom! The conception of Deity which prevails most widely today, even among those who profess to give heed to the Scriptures, is a miserable caricature, a blasphemous travesty of the Truth. The God of the twentieth century is a helpless, effeminate being who commands the respect of no really thoughtful man. The God of the popular mind is the creation of a maudlin sentimentality. The God of many a present-day pulpit is an object of pity rather than of awe-inspiring reverence. To say that God the Father has purposed the salvation of all mankind, 1 Tim 2:4 our Saviour God, who desires that all men should be saved and come to the knowledge (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Willem%20Laptop/My%20Documents/Mijn%20stuff/darby/other%20version/bdbl/BDB/n_1ti.html#2:4) of the truth.
that God the Son died with the express intention of saving the whole human race 2 Cor 5:14,15 For the love of the Christ constrains us, having judged this: that one died for all, then all have died (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Willem%20Laptop/My%20Documents/Mijn%20stuff/darby/other%20version/bdbl/BDB/n_2co.html#5:14); "and he died for all"
1 Tim 2:6 Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Willem%20Laptop/My%20Documents/Mijn%20stuff/darby/other%20version/bdbl/BDB/n_1ti.html#2:6) all, and that God the Holy Spirit is now seeking to win the world to Christ Jn 16:8 the Comforter ...... And having come, he will bring demonstration (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Willem%20Laptop/My%20Documents/Mijn%20stuff/darby/other%20version/bdbl/BDB/n_joh.html#16:8) to the world, of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment
; when, as a matter of common observation, it is apparent that the great majority of our fellow-men are dying in sin, and passing into a hopeless eternity: is to say that God the Father is disappointed, that God the Son is dissatisfied, and that God the Holy Spirit is defeated. We have stated the issue baldly, but there is no escaping the conclusion. To argue that God is "trying His best" to save all mankind, but that the majority of men will not let Him save them, is to insist that the will of the Creator is impotent, and that the will of the creature is omnipotent. Example:
Mt 23:37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those that are sent unto her, how often would I (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Willem%20Laptop/My%20Documents/Mijn%20stuff/darby/other%20version/bdbl/BDB/n_mt.html#23:37) have gathered thy children as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Now see this post? It's empty rhetoric. If people would actually deal with Romans 9, John 6:44, the ideas of limited atonment (etc) which was expressly made mention to this kind sir right here, then we might have some meat to deal with. Doubtful, but perhaps. For I used to believe the same as him and it was without understanding. Pink, I believe, is describing posts like this.

Re. Jn 6:44
6:44 No one can come to me except the Father who has sent me draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day.
This was used by Jesus as proof contrary to the Jews claiming they were of the Father and nevertheless rejected Jesus. Jesus says therefore: If you don't come to me you're not even listening (drawn by) the Father. See v. 45.
And compare this with: Jn 12:32 and I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me.
As He said: I and the Father are one. There is noone that the Father and the Son doesn't draw...

The Scripture is against Pink.

aReformedPatriot

4th September 2006, 11:18 AM

It's not two sides or views, just one. God knew before He created creation which of us would exercise their free will to choose to accept unquestioning and uncritically on faith His Son's saving grace and He has prepared accordingly.

This is false theology too. You know why? Because the necessary outcome of what you're saying here is that God looks into the future to see who will accept him, and then as a response to this future act, God in eternity past predestined man to be saved ("planned accordingly" as you put it). Thus, Salvation is entirely contingent upon your action; it begins with you. The Lord is presented as a secondary element, who is reacationary rather than the catalyst. You probably base this on a misunderstanding of Romans 8:29 which you cite above. Ignored is the fact that no one seeks after God to begin with. That man is dead in his sin and you expect him to be able to freely come to Christ in this state?

Using the verses you cite below, sovereign predestination which is antithetical to what you speak of here is presented: Mt 25:34 reaveals that at the end of the age all who are saved, those on his right hand, shall recieve the blessing preplanned in time past: namely salvation. John 17:24 identifies those who are at the right hand of God: "All that you have given me." This means the Father specifically gives some to Christ the others recieve not the blessing because their fate had already been decided. Eph 1:4 is more explicit: It reveals whom chose who and Paul identifies God with regard to this role. There is no looking into the future and planning accordingly here. The focus is entirely in the past, before time. He chose us to be in Christ, perfectly in conjunction with John 17:24, 6:44, etc. In Heb 4:2-3 we read that the Gospel is freely presented to all, but to those not called it was of no use. God chose them to remain in their sin according to their human nature otherwise they would have come to the son (cite every verse you mention in support of this: again, it all begins with God). The next verse you do not provide a citation for, however, it is obvious within that verse that the work of salvation was already determined before anything was ever created! It all began with God. It also demonstrates man's responsibility to respond in faith to the work of God, which he will because God draws him (Jn 6:44). Sovereign election is clear in this verse. Skip Romans 8:29 for a moment and goto v. 30. It is the completion of salvation: Those who were predestined for salvation in the past, were also effectually called (unlike those of no faith found in Hebrews earlier), those called were also declared righteous (justified), those who were justified are also glorified. Salvation is assured for such a man.

Now then, v. 29, is the pinnacle verse upon which your entire argument rests for a foundation. At an Arminian school I went to (Central Bible College), Prof Crabtree explained it like this: "When I take my 4 year old son to McDonald's, I know what he is going to get. A cheeseburger happymeal with nothing but cheese. I did not force him to get that, but I knew that's what he would choose because I just know what my son likes." So according to this verse you argue that God looks (foreknows) into the future, sees what we will do and plans (elects) accordingly. Not only does this interpretation conflict with all other verses presented, but it's a misunderstanding of what it means when it says that God foreknows. It is not a mere knowledge of facts, but when used in this context, it is a relational term between indivduals.

In Scripture, whenever it is said that God foreknows someone, it is always in the context of a personal relationship with him, namely a saving relationship. 1 Cor 8:3, "But if anyone loves God, he is known by God." Gal 4:9, "But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God." Again just 3 chapters later in Romans 11:2, "God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew." It is always a foreknowledge of persons with regard to salvific relationship. It reveals the already/not yet tension as well (perhaps another topic for another day). Thus it is proper to understand Pauls words in 8:29 to mean that these whom God predestined he foreknew them in a saving relationship to himself. And if you want to get real technical we could always expose the fact that there is really no free-will your interpretation of this text as well. Let's quote Grudem on this one because I've been up for over 24 hours now and Im feeling a tad lazy:

"if God can look into the future and see that person A will come to faith in Christ, and that person B will not come to faith in Christ,then those facts are already fixed, they are already determined." Systematic Theology pg. 679. (he goes on but I am really tired now)

Reprobation (a necessary consequence):

The following teach Reprobation (opposite of election):

Jud 1:4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

1Pe 2:8 and "A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense." They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;

See also Romans 9:22 and its context.

Election is a Cause for rejoicing:

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Reprobation is a cause for weeping, especially by God (Eze 33:11).

Bed time... :sleep:

(frgive all grammar mistakes and what not)

holdon

4th September 2006, 01:09 PM

Thus, Salvation is entirely contingent upon your action That's correct: saved by grace through faith. it begins with you. That's not correct. The Lord is presented as a secondary element, who is reacationary rather than the catalyst. You probably base this on a misunderstanding of Romans 8:29 which you cite above. Ignored is the fact that no one seeks after God to begin with. That man is dead in his sin and you expect him to be able to freely come to Christ in this state? Scripture invites everyone to come freely. Yes, man is dead in sins. But he can nevertheless hear:
Jn 5:25
Verily, verily, I say unto you, that an hour (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Willem%20Laptop/My%20Documents/Mijn%20stuff/darby/other%20version/bdbl/BDB/n_joh.html#5:25) is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that have heard shall live.
Jn 3:8
The wind blows where it will, and thou hearest its voice (speaking of the Spirit)
Eph. 5:14
Wherefore he says, Wake up, thou that sleepest, and arise up from among the dead, and the Christ shall shine upon thee (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Willem%20Laptop/My%20Documents/Mijn%20stuff/darby/other%20version/bdbl/BDB/n_eph.html#5:14). (note that this in the same epistle where he says we were dead in sins)
Using the verses you cite below, sovereign predestination which is antithetical to what you speak of here is presented: Mt 25:34 reaveals that at the end of the age all who are saved, those on his right hand, shall recieve the blessing preplanned in time past: namely salvation. John 17:24 identifies those who are at the right hand of God: "All that you have given me." This means the Father specifically gives some to Christ the others recieve not the blessing because their fate had already been decided. Jn 17:12 speaks of one who was given by the Father and lost! "those thou hast given me I have guarded, and not one of them has perished, but the son of perdition (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Willem%20Laptop/My%20Documents/Mijn%20stuff/darby/other%20version/bdbl/BDB/n_joh.html#17:12) Eph 1:4 is more explicit: It reveals whom chose who and Paul identifies God with regard to this role. There is no looking into the future and planning accordingly here. The focus is entirely in the past, before time. He chose us to be in Christ That's correct , perfectly in conjunction with John 17:24, 6:44, etc. In Heb 4:2-3 we read that the Gospel is freely presented to all, but to those not called it was of no use. Hebr. 4:2-3 doesn't say anything about calling or not being called. God chose them to remain in their sin according to their human nature otherwise they would have come to the son This is completely and utterly false. (cite every verse you mention in support of this: again, it all begins with God). The next verse you do not provide a citation for, however, it is obvious within that verse that the work of salvation was already determined before anything was ever created! It all began with God. It also demonstrates man's responsibility to respond in faith to the work of God, which he will because God draws him (Jn 6:44). Not all who are drawn are saved. Jn 12:32 says Christ draws all men, yet not all are saved. Sovereign election is clear in this verse. Skip Romans 8:29 for a moment and goto v. 30. It is the completion of salvation: Those who were predestined for salvation in the past, were also effectually called (unlike those of no faith found in Hebrews earlier), those called were also declared righteous (justified), those who were justified are also glorified. Salvation is assured for such a man. Hebr 4 makes it abundantly clear that salvation hinges on faith:
"but the word of the report did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard.
4:3 For we enter into the rest who have believed". "Predestination for salvation" is not a Scriptural term. We, the believers, are predestined to be conform to the image of His Son. Rom 8:29. It presupposes salvation, but is a lot more."if God can look into the future and see that person A will come to faith in Christ, and that person B will not come to faith in Christ,then those facts are already fixed, they are already determined." Systematic Theology pg. 679. (he goes on but I am really tired now) But not necessarily by God....

Reprobation (a necessary consequence):

The following teach Reprobation (opposite of election):

Jud 1:4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. The sentence (condemnation) was long ago written up for such. It does not say anything about that these men were reprobates by God's destiny.

1Pe 2:8 and "A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense." They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do
They were destined to stumble, because of unbelief. It's a logical consequence of unbelief. They were not destined to unbelief. The verse doesn't say that at all.
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; That's why He told us to become like children. Or do you think that that is not possible?
Reprobation is a cause for weeping, especially by God (Eze 33:11). There is no predestined reprobation in the entire bible. It's a false theology. And Eze 33:11 says this:
33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

HypoTypoSis

4th September 2006, 02:05 PM

I'm not sure how you figure I'm quoting all those verses I haven't :scratch: unless you're mixing posters up or just too tired but I heard this tired old argument's humanly flauntings and philosophical flaws in class decades before you were ever born...so...
(frgive all grammar mistakes and what not)
...having obliged your request I've ignored all the grammar, mistakes and what not, forgiven you and, itmt, as I was saying...
It's not two sides or views, just one. God knew before He created creation which of us would exercise their free will to choose to accept unquestioningly and uncritically on faith His Son's saving grace and He has prepared accordingly.
Anything less makes mankind out to be mindless will-less automotons in an ant hill and God a sadistic little kid holding a magnifying glass over the ants. That might be the god of some but it sure ain't my God! Violation of the concept of free will even in the least is never an option.

All the writers within the last two thousand years since Jesus, the disciples and the Apostle Paul must never be taken on face value and always with more than just a grain of salt.

They, just as we, were no better and no worse than we and were no more and no less knowledgeable or inspired than we and, like us, were all simply trying to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.

None of them left behind inviolable works anywhere near being tantamountly equal to those who were inspired by God and wrote the original autographs and they, in all likelihood, would be the first to say so directing you, instead, first and always to the word of God.

All that they left behind is nothing more than the remaining products of them working out their own salvation and, giving them the benefit of the doubt, they would never want anyone to base their salvation on anything they said.

We are given good minds and free wills and we must always exercise them accordingly that we may be approved unto God, workmen that needeth not to be ashamed.

Philippians 2:12, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

Question: If someone spent their entire life in every church and denomination they could what kind of belief would they die with? :confused:

wmc1982

4th September 2006, 02:07 PM

no, He chose us already before Earth or Humans even existed. Salvation is irresistable

HypoTypoSis

4th September 2006, 02:39 PM

no, He chose us already before Earth or Humans even existed. Salvation is irresistable
Right on! Knowing what we of our own accord would do He predestined us to His glory; the same glory He gave His Son, Jesus, and the same glory Jesus has bestowed upon us.

mlqurgw

4th September 2006, 09:33 PM

I'm not sure how you figure I'm quoting all those verses I haven't :scratch: unless you're mixing posters up or just too tired but I heard this tired old argument's humanly flauntings and philosophical flaws in class decades before you were ever born...so...

...having obliged your request I've ignored all the grammar, mistakes and what not, forgiven you and, itmt, as I was saying...

Anything less makes mankind out to be mindless will-less automotons in an ant hill and God a sadistic little kid holding a magnifying glass over the ants. That might be the god of some but it sure ain't my God! Violation of the concept of free will even in the least is never an option.

All the writers within the last two thousand years since Jesus, the disciples and the Apostle Paul must never be taken on face value and always with more than just a grain of salt.

They, just as we, were no better and no worse than we and were no more and no less knowledgeable or inspired than we and, like us, were all simply trying to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.

None of them left behind inviolable works anywhere near being tantamountly equal to those who were inspired by God and wrote the original autographs and they, in all likelihood, would be the first to say so directing you, instead, first and always to the word of God.

All that they left behind is nothing more than the remaining products of them working out their own salvation and, giving them the benefit of the doubt, they would never want anyone to base their salvation on anything they said.

We are given good minds and free wills and we must always exercise them accordingly that we may be approved unto God, workmen that needeth not to be ashamed.

Philippians 2:12, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

Question: If someone spent their entire life in every church and denomination they could what kind of belief would they die with? :confused:I will answer you last one first; a confused one. Christ said that His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him. When a believer hears the truth of God they know it as the truth and bow to it.

As I said in an earlier post , I think, man is willing to give up everything in order toget to Heaven except the one thing that is vital, his will. He will hang onto it as long as he can and will not let it go until God makes him willing to.

The idea that God must work according to the will of man, which is the conclusion of wht you have said, is to make man god and God man. Has not the Lord the right to do what He will with His own. Christ asked that question in explaining a parable a that was His whole point. Man's insitence on retaining his free will is only because he yet refuses to bow to God as God. He must have some small part in saving himself.

God violates mans will all the time so that isn't a valid argument. Man has actually chosen the weakest part of his nature and made an idol of it.

The greatest monument to the free will of man is the cross of Christ.

HypoTypoSis

5th September 2006, 12:43 AM

1...I think, man is willing to give up everything in order toget to Heaven except the one thing that is vital, his will.

Much of mankind denies even the existence of heaven just as they deny the existence of God preferring instead to follow the evil of their perverted evil hearts making their ownselves god.

2...He will hang onto it as long as he can and will not let it go until God makes him willing to.

God forces no one against their will to come to Him for salvation. They must first have a submissive will before the Father will draw them to His Son.

For God to "make" someone willing is to negate the concept of free will in which case all would be mindless will-less automotons that would all in the end be saved thereby negating the entire sacrificial purpose of Calvary.

3...The idea that God must work according to the will of man, which is the conclusion of wht you have said, is to make man god and God man.

I have never anywhere, on this board and its forums and threads or anywhere else on this earth ever claimed such. As you said in your opening, the 'confused one', and on this you are most definitely mistaken in this respect. Please, in the future, re-adjust your thinking and responses in this regard, I regard such inferences as highly personally offensive innuendoes.

4...Has not the Lord the right to do what He will with His own.

Only those that in Christ are His; those He will guide, lead and protect.

The others, the unsaved, are led by their father, the father of lies, and by their own wills and desires and they will follow in their own pernicious ways.

5...God violates mans will all the time
Does statement #5, as with #2, not persist in following a line of reasoning that allows God to violate His own purposes of design by ignoring the concept of free will?

JacobHall86

5th September 2006, 12:47 AM

God Predestined us to have this debate.

Calvinism FTW!!!!!

HypoTypoSis

5th September 2006, 02:35 AM

God Predestined us to have this debate.

Calvinism FTW!!!!!

First off, this is not a debate.

Second, God knew it would take place but He had no hand in making it happen.

Finally, Calvin was just another mistaken, error ridden sinful soul who would chastise you for elevating him so if he could; verifying, also, that long before him, Paul, in I Cor. 1:10-15 already chastised you for such an attitude.

Jesus, first, last, always and only! That is what Calvin would instruct you in if he could and what Paul, also, instructed you.

mlqurgw

5th September 2006, 11:03 AM

Does statement #5, as with #2, not persist in following a line of reasoning that allows God to violate His own purposes of design by ignoring the concept of free will?No it doesn't. It doesn't ignore the concept of free will it simply recognizes that the concept is a figment of man's imagination.

HypoTypoSis

5th September 2006, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by HypoTypoSis http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=26472422#post26472422)
Does statement #5, as with #2, not persist in following a line of reasoning that allows God to violate His own purposes of design by ignoring the concept of free will?

No it doesn't. It doesn't ignore the concept of free will it simply recognizes that the concept is a figment of man's imagination.

If free will is a nonexistent figment then free choice also is nonexistant in which case we have no choice to choose to accept or reject the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

BBAS 64

5th September 2006, 01:37 PM

If free will is a nonexistent figment then free choice also is nonexistant in which case we have no choice to choose to accept or reject the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

Good Day, HypoTyposis

Free choice does not exist, in so much as you will always choice that which your will precives to be the "best", you will always choice that and do so freely.

The will is not free, because it is directed effected by things that are external, of which we have no control.

Peace to u,

Bill

mlqurgw

5th September 2006, 02:11 PM

If free will is a nonexistent figment then free choice also is nonexistant in which case we have no choice to choose to accept or reject the saving grace of Jesus Christ.
I think you have got it. Athough given the tone I think you reject it.

JPPT1974

5th September 2006, 02:20 PM

Just do it with the right heart
And with the right attitude!
Accepting Christ like you really mean it!

Razorbuck

5th September 2006, 04:28 PM

How I greatly enjoy the new multi-quote function. Greetings Razorbuck & spsucj. I will address your concens below:

What multi-quote function? Sounds handy.

Yes, but not on your own. The Father must first draw you to his Son, Jesus Christ, through the hearing of the gospel (John 6:44). When this happens, a change takes place in your heart so that you are inclined toward God, because he is drawing you, and it is now possible to place your faith in him. The definition of faith is as stated above in Heb 11:1 and is further evidenced by the belief in your heart and the confessing of him with your mouth (Rom 10:9-10). For it is by your fruits and your words that we recognize someone who is saved. Your salvation begins with God and is dependent on his call.

Can you explain the logical conclusion of John 6:44 concerning those he does not call?

Sure. Death, hell, eternal separation from God. That doesn't negate the fact that our LORD said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

John 6:44 is an oft quoted Calvinist 'proof text', funny they don't pay as much attention to John 6:64-65:

But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

How very calvinist of you! We agree. :)

No need to get nasty...;) And we most certainly do not agree, unless you can agree with this statement:

There is not one living human being that can not be saved. What say you?

Again we agree. ;)

However, the idea here is not that God looked into the future and saw who would accept him and then predestined him on the basis of man's decision in the future. For that makes salvation dependent on one's work, a dangerous place to be.

Our LORD seems to disagree with you in the aforementioned passage. (John 6:64-65)
For the life of me, I'll never understand how calvinists can equate a desperate cry for mercy from a doomed, guilty sinner as a "work". If you pull me from the water after hearing my call for help, did you save me from drowning or did I save myself? How is this salvation by works? Completely fallacious argument.

But rather God's foreknowledge of you is not a foreknowledge of the mere fact that you will choose him, but rather is a "knowing" of the most intimate sort. 1 Cor 8:3 and Gal 4:9 provide clearer examples of this. The knowledge of mere facts is not at the forefront here but a knowledge of persons in connection to those who have a saving relationship to him. So yea, God is working his will out in your life. How does it feel you pawn, you? :P

Feels great! I would most willingly be a pawn for my LORD and Saviour, but that's not what He calls me. He calls me brother, friend, beloved son and joint-heir. Pawn is your word, not His.

You are right when you say hell was not originally intended for us. But unfortunately, through the fall, all of Adam's posterity are headed that way without divine intervention.

Whoa, hoss. You said that God did indeed decree from before creation that some would suffer the flames of hell for His eternal purpose. Did He forget that part when He said it was prepared for the devil and his angels?

Hence our agreed need for Christ. But that does not negate the fact that people are going there because God has sovereignly passed over some for salvation while bearing in mind that justice is deserved for sin against God in the first place. His act of election highlights his mercy as is the intention of these verses.

Yes sir, it DOES negate that "fact". Man is indeed headed for hell, but our LORD did NOT create it for that purpose! It is not His desire (nor will, to be scriptural) that any should perish, and there is simply no getting around that.

By the way, you went back to Romans 9 in your reply to another poster but failed to answer in what sense God "endured with much longsuffering" the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. Care to expound?

Oh, yeah--thanks for your thoughtful reply. This sort of discussion sometimes get emotional, and I've always admired you and mlqurgw's tone in these types of posts.

HypoTypoSis

5th September 2006, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by HypoTypoSis http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=26480443#post26480443)
If free will is a nonexistent figment then free choice also is nonexistant in which case we have no choice to choose to accept or reject the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

I think you have got it. Athough given the tone I think you reject it.

You're right.

If we don't have the free will to choose to submit a will that of its own accord desires the things of the flesh then we have no control and if no control then neither is there free choice or free will and if no submission then the Father cannot draw us to the Son and, in turn, the Son cannot be the doorway for us to enter in the presence of the Father which results in no possible salvation.

BBAS 64

5th September 2006, 05:10 PM

You're right.

If we don't have the free will to choose to submit a will that of its own accord desires the things of the flesh then we have no control and if no control then neither is there free choice or free will and if no submission then the Father cannot draw us to the Son and, in turn, the Son cannot be the doorway for us to enter in the presence of the Father which results in no possible salvation.

Good Day, HypoTyposis

This is the second time you have posted this...

What scriptural basis do you have where submission is a requirment that God is has before he has the abilty to draw?

An "if /then "statement would be help full or "cause and effect" would be ok I guess.

Peace to u,

Bill

HypoTypoSis

5th September 2006, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by HypoTypoSis http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=26486778#post26486778)
If we don't have the free will to choose to submit a will that of its own accord desires the things of the flesh then we have no control and if no control then neither is there free choice or free will and if no submission then the Father cannot draw us to the Son and, in turn, the Son cannot be the doorway for us to enter in the presence of the Father which results in no possible salvation.

Good Day, HypoTyposis

This is the second time you have posted this...

What scriptural basis do you have where submission is a requirment that God is has before he has the abilty to draw?

An "if /then "statement would be help full or "cause and effect" would be ok I guess.

Peace to u,

Bill

A submissive will is a requirement all throughout before and after salvation. Before salvation to be saved, after salvation for continued growth in becoming Christ-like.

A prideful individual is one with a head strong and unsubmitted will and is one that no one, not even God, can touch without, of course, violating the sanctity of the concept of free will and free choice; in which case, coming to Jesus is no longer a matter of exercising a free will but is, instead, a sham rooted in coercion wherein a man is forced to do something he is not so predisposed to do and this, we know, is not the case; therefore, free will is an absolute necessity in allowing all who may to submit their pride and their wills to that of God and come repenting, asking forgiveness and seeking the gift of salvation that Jesus Christ, as a result of Calvary, offers.

James 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God.

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

-----------------

1 Peter 2:13-15, "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:"

1 Peter 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

1 Peter 2:19-25, "For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls."

BBAS 64

5th September 2006, 07:54 PM

A submissive will is a requirement all throughout before and after salvation. Before salvation to be saved, after salvation for continued growth in becoming Christ-like.

A prideful individual is one with a head strong and unsubmitted will and is one that no one, not even God, can touch without, of course, violating the sanctity of the concept of free will and free choice; in which case, coming to Jesus is no longer a matter of exercising a free will but is, instead, a sham rooted in coercion wherein a man is forced to do something he is not so predisposed to do and this, we know, is not the case; therefore, free will is an absolute necessity in allowing all who may to submit their pride and their wills to that of God and come repenting, asking forgiveness and seeking the gift of salvation that Jesus Christ, as a result of Calvary, offers.

James 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God.

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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1 Peter 2:13-15, "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:"

1 Peter 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

1 Peter 2:19-25, "For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls."

Good Day,

Thanks for that, but it fails to answer my question.

Good Day, HypoTyposis

This is the second time you have posted this...

What scriptural basis do you have where submission is a requirment that God is has before he has the abilty to draw?

An "if /then "statement would be help full or "cause and effect" would be ok I guess.

Peace to u,

Bill

You posted:

John 6:44, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

One must have a willing attitude, a submissive will, in order for God to draw them. Without a submissive will one's will is separate, apart and above that of God's and no one can be drawn to God; dragged maybe, but then that would be against the concept of free will.

Where is all that bolded stuff in JN 6???

You have added to the text ideas that the text of JN 6 does not have and changed the meaning of the words that Jesus taught. Not a smart thing....

You up hold this concept of free-will but have yet to prove in, commiting a serious error called a fallacy. It is concept you claim, would you define it.

You have a will Scripture teaches that, being free is an other question...

Peace to u,

Bill

HypoTypoSis

5th September 2006, 11:31 PM

John 6:44, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

One must have a willing attitude, a submissive will, in order for God to draw them. Without a submissive will one's will is separate, apart and above that of God's and no one can be drawn to God; dragged maybe, but then that would be against the concept of free will.

Matthew 16:24, "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

Mark 8:34, "And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

Luke 9:23, "And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me."

To deny oneself before Christ is to submit their will to the will of God.

will = is willing (indicative), or desireth = Greek 'thelo'; everything hinges on 'the will'.

(If any man) will:

Will:
Strong: will = to will, have in mind, intend, to be resolved or determined, to purpose, to desire, to wish

Will:
EWB: means to wish or desire, and is the emotional element which leads to the consequent action. It is therefore stronger than boulomai, because the natural impulse is stronger than the reasoned resolve

deny:
Strong: deny = to affirm that one has no acquaintance or connection with someone; to forget one's self, lose sight of one's self and one's own interests

In order for one "to come to" Christ and for him "to deny himself" requires a free and independent acting will.

christian73

5th September 2006, 11:58 PM

Matthew 16:24, "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

Mark 8:34, "And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

Luke 9:23, "And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me."

To deny oneself before Christ is to submit their will to the will of God.

will = is willing (indicative), or desireth = Greek 'thelo'; everything hinges on 'the will'.

(If any man) will:

Will:
Strong: will = to will, have in mind, intend, to be resolved or determined, to purpose, to desire, to wish

Will:
EWB: means to wish or desire, and is the emotional element which leads to the consequent action. It is therefore stronger than boulomai, because the natural impulse is stronger than the reasoned resolve

deny:
Strong: deny = to affirm that one has no acquaintance or connection with someone; to forget one's self, lose sight of one's self and one's own interests

In order for one "to come to" Christ and for him "to deny himself" requires a free and independent acting will.

True. However, if God hardens your heart, you can't be submissive to God. Look at what happened to Pharoh when Moses tried to free God's people.

HypoTypoSis

6th September 2006, 12:59 AM

True. However, if God hardens your heart, you can't be submissive to God. Look at what happened to Pharoh when Moses tried to free God's people.
Exactly! :thumbsup:

mlqurgw

6th September 2006, 01:05 AM

Hypotyposis; do you not realize that what you posit as the sanctity of your free will robs God of His?

HypoTypoSis

6th September 2006, 01:18 AM

Hypotyposis; do you not realize that what you posit as the sanctity of your free will robs God of His?

Not at all. With Adam and Eve all the way up to the present God has allowed mankind the freedom (read: free will) to choose to do it His way or not. Mankind has the ability to choose to either be a part of the natural order of things for as long as it lasts or they can choose to step above that and become a part of the endless heavenly spirit realm with God. Jesus, too, had a choice and He chose to do it the Father's way and for that God bestowed upon Him His glory and because we have chosen, also, to do it God's way Jesus has chosen to bestow that glory upon us.

mlqurgw

6th September 2006, 01:45 AM

Not at all. With Adam and Eve all the way up to the present God has allowed mankind the freedom (read: free will) to choose to do it His way or not. Mankind has the ability to choose to either be a part of the natural order of things for as long as it lasts or they can choose to step above that and become a part of the endless heavenly spirit realm with God. Jesus, too, had a choice and He chose to do it the Father's way and for that God bestowed upon Him His glory and because we have chosen, also, to do it God's way Jesus has chosen to bestow that glory upon us.In reality what you have done is make God the puppet of men. You have repeatedly stated that God can't make men willing unless he is submissive. That is neither Biblical or logical. The Scripture clearly teach that no man is willing to come to Christ in his natural state, the verses have alreadxy been given but I can give them again and mre if you need them. Show me one place in the Scriptures that God says he wants what He can't have or tries to do anything He can't do. God has the power, wisdom and authority to make men willing by giving a new will that sees the need of Christ and comes to Him in faith. We do not deny that we choose Christ only that we do so apart from God first doing something in us and for us that we are unable to do for ourselves. He is the one who purposed to save a people. He is the one who actually redeemed a people and He is the one who makes both His purpose and redemption effectual in the heart. Salvation is of the Lord. You have stated that it is all dependent on man's will but that logically leads to the conclusion that man is his own savior. That simply will not aline with Scripture. You rob God of His free will by binding it by a concept of man's free will. To say that God cannot violate man's free will is to say that God is subject to the will of men and His will makes no real difference. More than that you make His love to be a useless and powerlees thing that is so frustrated I would have to pity God.