Opinions Wanted - Senior Pastor Responsibility

[TexasSky]

My Pastor of 13 years seems to be in trouble, and its kind of got me stunned.

This is a man that meets, without question, all the biblical qualifications to be a deacon, pastor, elder or even a bishop. He is happily married. His children, grown now, are all fine Christians who have a loving relationship with him. He's never been accused of immorality. He is a good preacher. Graduated from college and then from Seminary with 4.0's. Taught bible at a Baptist owned University for a few years. Lives by example. Does visitation, prays over everything, teaching from God's word. Does mission work through the church.

I've never heard an unkind or critical word about him - - until - - I got a letter a few days ago telling me the "personnel committee" was calling a church meeting to vote on whether he should remain the church's pastor or not. A few days later we got another letter saying that the meeting had been "post poned."

I called my Deacons, and said, "I don't want to hear anything that would qualify as a breach of confidentiality, but is there some moral or ethical issue that I need to be aware of?" My deacons said, "We have no idea. We weren't told any more than you were."

Excuse me? ? ? ? My DEACONS were not told that some committee in the church was trying to FIRE my Pastor??

So, I called the head of this personnel committee. I was told that the personnel committee had determined my Pastor had not done anything unethical or immoral. I said, "Then why are you trying to fire him?" They said, "He's a great teacher. A wonderful minister." I said, "Then why are you trying to fire him?" The answer: "He just isn't a good leader."

I said, "He shows up every time the church has a function, no matter what day or the week or when. He participates with a smile on his face. He preaches and teaches the Gospel of Christ. He has a good marriage. He does visitation door to door, and in the hospital. When we host the homeless, he and his family stay with them. When we didn't meet our missions-goal, he sold his personal belongings and gave the money to the missions. He prays. He studies his bible. So.. what kind of leadership issues do you have with him?"

He should have told the church the Minister of Music was having an affair. "Excuse me? He found out about the affair, confronted the Minister of Music, told him if it was true, he could not longer serve the church in the capacity of Associate Minister of Music, and counseled him according to God's word, then arranged marriage counseling. The Music Minister rendered his resignation, the Pastor went with him to talk to the deacons. How is this wrong."

"He covered up the sin."

Excuse me?

"He hid the sin."

"You know this for a fact?"

"Well, no, but obviously, if *** resigned in May, and this affair began in January.....,"

"So you think the Pastor knew about the affair since January?"

"No, but he SHOULD have."

"Why should he have?"

"He was doing counseling with the couple."

"Soooooo, you are mad that he didn't breach the confidentiality of the pastoral relationship?"

"No, you shouldn't put it like that."

"How should I put it?"

"He should have been doing evaluations on all the people. He hasn't."

"Aren't you the personnel committee? Weren't these people all called by the Deacon Search committee, reviewed by your committe, and presented to the whole church? How did it suddenly become my Pastor's problem?"

"You don't understand, any good business....."

"This is GOD's business."

"Yes, but I'm sure God called me to this committee....,"

"What did the deacons say?"

"We have terrible deacons, they don't do anything."

"You aren't a deacon are you? I know Cindy isn't. Women aren't. So a committee, made up of unordained people, decided, on their own, to fire my preacher?"

"Well, the leadership committee...."

"Oh, yes, that's the same leadership committee that told me that saving souls wasn't the business of the church, that it was more important that people feel comfortable in worship."

"You're making this difficult."

"Well, yes. Yes I am. Out of the blue, I find out you're trying to fire my pastor, and you can't even give me a solid reason WHY you want to fire my pastor. You bad mouth my deacons. And you tell me that you were lead to this committee, while you are using the committe to try to fire a man who dedicated his entire life to God's work. Do you have any idea why I love my Pastor and his family? Let me tell you; when I was going through a terrible crisis in my life, he happened to call the house - by accident if you don't consider the obvious fact God's hand was on the phone. I burst into tears when he told me who he was and apologized for calling. He immediately prayed with me, and asked me if he could send people to my home. A few hours later, friends of his showed up with fresh baked cookies, hugs, and prayers. The next morning, his daughter showed up to take my daughter out. A few days later, someone else showed up, saying he sent them. I needed, more than anything in the world, to know God was with me, and God used THAT family to show me he was."

"Well, that's good, but he doesn't even have a performance evaluation form."

"How many hours do you and your committee people spend on your knees in prayer about this stuff? Ever hold a meeting where that is ALL you did? Or do you do the standard, walk in, have a prayer, get down to business."

"Well, we have work to do."

"My pastor and his family pray about everything."

"We confronted him, and he didn't even answer us."

"Did he refuse to answer? Or did he say he wanted to talk to the Lord?"

"Well.... I.. these were just yes or no questions."

"Did it occur to you, that in MANY churchs, the Senior Pastor would be the final authority on how to handle his office staff, and that you would be there to ASSIST him? Not to tear him down?"

"Well, in a small church, but we're not..."

"We're not large. I was from a large church. Believe me, most senior pastors would not put up with this."

"Well, hopefully this will all come to a vote soon."

"NOT until you talk to my deacons. YOU don't have a right to call a church conference. My deacons do."

"But the deacons here are worthless."

"To a man that wants the Pastor to run the church like Enron they might be. My chuch isn't Enron."

People - - I am stunned.
I am angry.

My Pastor and his wife are just.... sick.

What would you do?

[HumbleMan]

I would first look at the churches by-laws to make sure the "leadership(?)" board has that authority. They obviously don't biblically. Then I would demand that the entire board meeting be public and make sure as many members of that congregation show up that can.

I may be wrong, but this sounds like a power struggle. Does the board have another pastor already in mind?

It sounds like your pastor is a very Godly man.

[JacobHall86]

The deacons and others need to back down. The Pastor knew what he was doing. He knew that calling out the Music Minister was not going to fix the problem.

[aReformedPatriot]

Someone once told me that if you don't get fired from at least one church in your ministry your not doing your job. - lol, cynical I know.

[mont974x4]

That is heart breaking but has sadly become rather routine. It does sound like a power struggle and I would search the by-laws to prep for any meeting. You need to know....
Who has the authority to call these meetings? How are they to be called? Who has the authority to hire and fire staff? What is the process? What role do the deacons play? The committee? The membership?

I pray this issue is handled biblically and that your pastor and his family rest in His peace.

[JacobHall86]

The deacons need to re-examine their roles. In case they are wondering, they have 0 power in the church.

[MbiaJc]

My Pastor of 13 years seems to be in trouble, and its kind of got me stunned.

This is a man that meets, without question, all the biblical qualifications to be a deacon, pastor, elder or even a bishop. He is happily married. His children, grown now, are all fine Christians who have a loving relationship with him. He's never been accused of immorality. He is a good preacher. Graduated from college and then from Seminary with 4.0's. Taught bible at a Baptist owned University for a few years. Lives by example. Does visitation, prays over everything, teaching from God's word. Does mission work through the church.

I've never heard an unkind or critical word about him - - until - - I got a letter a few days ago telling me the "personnel committee" was calling a church meeting to vote on whether he should remain the church's pastor or not. A few days later we got another letter saying that the meeting had been "post poned."

I called my Deacons, and said, "I don't want to hear anything that would qualify as a breach of confidentiality, but is there some moral or ethical issue that I need to be aware of?" My deacons said, "We have no idea. We weren't told any more than you were."

Excuse me? ? ? ? My DEACONS were not told that some committee in the church was trying to FIRE my Pastor??

So, I called the head of this personnel committee. I was told that the personnel committee had determined my Pastor had not done anything unethical or immoral. I said, "Then why are you trying to fire him?" They said, "He's a great teacher. A wonderful minister." I said, "Then why are you trying to fire him?" The answer: "He just isn't a good leader."

I said, "He shows up every time the church has a function, no matter what day or the week or when. He participates with a smile on his face. He preaches and teaches the Gospel of Christ. He has a good marriage. He does visitation door to door, and in the hospital. When we host the homeless, he and his family stay with them. When we didn't meet our missions-goal, he sold his personal belongings and gave the money to the missions. He prays. He studies his bible. So.. what kind of leadership issues do you have with him?"

He should have told the church the Minister of Music was having an affair. "Excuse me? He found out about the affair, confronted the Minister of Music, told him if it was true, he could not longer serve the church in the capacity of Associate Minister of Music, and counseled him according to God's word, then arranged marriage counseling. The Music Minister rendered his resignation, the Pastor went with him to talk to the deacons. How is this wrong."

"He covered up the sin."

Excuse me?

"He hid the sin."

"You know this for a fact?"

"Well, no, but obviously, if *** resigned in May, and this affair began in January.....,"

"So you think the Pastor knew about the affair since January?"

"No, but he SHOULD have."

"Why should he have?"

"He was doing counseling with the couple."

"Soooooo, you are mad that he didn't breach the confidentiality of the pastoral relationship?"

"No, you shouldn't put it like that."

"How should I put it?"

"He should have been doing evaluations on all the people. He hasn't."

"Aren't you the personnel committee? Weren't these people all called by the Deacon Search committee, reviewed by your committe, and presented to the whole church? How did it suddenly become my Pastor's problem?"

"You don't understand, any good business....."

"This is GOD's business."

"Yes, but I'm sure God called me to this committee....,"

"What did the deacons say?"

"We have terrible deacons, they don't do anything."

"You aren't a deacon are you? I know Cindy isn't. Women aren't. So a committee, made up of unordained people, decided, on their own, to fire my preacher?"

"Well, the leadership committee...."

"Oh, yes, that's the same leadership committee that told me that saving souls wasn't the business of the church, that it was more important that people feel comfortable in worship."

"You're making this difficult."

"Well, yes. Yes I am. Out of the blue, I find out you're trying to fire my pastor, and you can't even give me a solid reason WHY you want to fire my pastor. You bad mouth my deacons. And you tell me that you were lead to this committee, while you are using the committe to try to fire a man who dedicated his entire life to God's work. Do you have any idea why I love my Pastor and his family? Let me tell you; when I was going through a terrible crisis in my life, he happened to call the house - by accident if you don't consider the obvious fact God's hand was on the phone. I burst into tears when he told me who he was and apologized for calling. He immediately prayed with me, and asked me if he could send people to my home. A few hours later, friends of his showed up with fresh baked cookies, hugs, and prayers. The next morning, his daughter showed up to take my daughter out. A few days later, someone else showed up, saying he sent them. I needed, more than anything in the world, to know God was with me, and God used THAT family to show me he was."

"Well, that's good, but he doesn't even have a performance evaluation form."

"How many hours do you and your committee people spend on your knees in prayer about this stuff? Ever hold a meeting where that is ALL you did? Or do you do the standard, walk in, have a prayer, get down to business."

"Well, we have work to do."

"My pastor and his family pray about everything."

"We confronted him, and he didn't even answer us."

"Did he refuse to answer? Or did he say he wanted to talk to the Lord?"

"Well.... I.. these were just yes or no questions."

"Did it occur to you, that in MANY churchs, the Senior Pastor would be the final authority on how to handle his office staff, and that you would be there to ASSIST him? Not to tear him down?"

"Well, in a small church, but we're not..."

"We're not large. I was from a large church. Believe me, most senior pastors would not put up with this."

"Well, hopefully this will all come to a vote soon."

"NOT until you talk to my deacons. YOU don't have a right to call a church conference. My deacons do."

"But the deacons here are worthless."

"To a man that wants the Pastor to run the church like Enron they might be. My chuch isn't Enron."

People - - I am stunned.
I am angry.

My Pastor and his wife are just.... sick.

What would you do?


Sounds to me like the Deacons and Pastor should have a meeting with the Personnel Committee, and fire them.
They have more authority in the Church than a Personnel Committee that not ordained.

[Jason19]

In my church, which is southern baptist, once a year the pastor/pastor's positions go under review, normally its just procedure, but everytime it happens when people hear about it, they think someone is trying to fire them... if things show up in the report about them that would require fireing... then sure, but normally there is nothing, and its the congregation gossip , and certain individuals who come up with reasons why they should be or are being considered for removal.

Be careful of those who are gossips, this could just be a review of his service, and everyone is making it out bigger then it is... yes in a review a pastor could get fired... but its rare. it sounds to me like what happens every year in my church... and the pastor/pastor's have yet to be fired lol.

if it is something that a certian "commitee" is trying to do for real, I doubt they will actually be able to go through with it, as far as I know the deacons would have the greatest authority over them, and reguardless of what they would decide... they couldn't get it accomplished.


Hope all goes well reguardless of what this situation really is.

[mont974x4]

Question, did the minister of music repent? Was any other church discipline needed and conducted?

[TexasSky]

Unfortunately, this is not just gossip. The Pastor and the head of the committee both confirmed that this committee wants the Pastor fired. The head of the committee, by the way, has been a member of the church a total of 2 years. *BLEAH*

As to the Minister of Music. I don't know, but the impression I have gotten from people close to the situation is that his attitude is not at all what people would hope it would be under the circumstances. I really cannot say. I try to stay out of gossip so I really don't know.

It is a power struggle. I've been aware of that in the church for a few years. About 2 years ago we built a new sanctuary, and around that same time a church of like faith and order in town dissolved. Many of those members joined our church and there has been a significant rise in this kind of nonsense since that time.

[Project 86]

When a church is being ran more like a buisness then a 1st century biblical church you got problems.

[GordonSlocum]

Committees are to only perform their designated duties not rule the Church. If the committee's original responsibility was to consider a new pastor so be it, but if the committee is acting on its own they are out of line. It seems to me that what you have said tells me the committee acted on its own.

Unity at all cost is bad, but unity around godliness and sound doctrine is good.

[mont974x4]

When a church is being ran more like a buisness then a 1st century biblical church you got problems.


Agreed but it appears to be a necessary evil in todays society to act in accordance with the laws of the land as they pertain to non-profits, membership, and discipline.

[mlqurgw]

Agreed but it appears to be a necessary evil in todays society to act in accordance with the laws of the land as they pertain to non-profits, membership, and discipline.What is needed is pastors with a backbone. Far too many think the pastor should never offend anyone. When you have the tares mixed in with the sheep, and it will always be so and should be, those who have no understanding in the Scriptures will try to run things. Of course I don't believe the church is a democracy and that commitees are useless methods of giving people something to do to feel as though they are a part of the church.

[TexasSky]

Please pray for the Pastor and for the church.
I made a few calls today, to people who have, in the past - supported the Pastor. The people were openly hostile.

When I asked why they were hostile, they made statements to me that I found rather unbelievable, and so I asked them, "When did he say this to you?" And what I heard was, "Well, he didn't say it to ME, but I heard, from a very reliable source that.....," followed quickly by denials that they would ever spread gossip.

All of it is absolute pettiness. One report that he "flat out lied," was tracked down to, "He said that he was just hanging on 10 years for retirement, but he denied that when he was asked!" Well, once, jokingly, he ~was~ asked "how are you," and he jokingly replied, "Just hanging in for 10 years, then I can retire." I heard the joke. And yes, when someone asked him, flat out, if he told people he was just hanging in until retirement, he denied that. However, the first was an off the cuff joke, and the second was, "Isn't it true you admitted that....," and so denying the second was not a lie.

I feel absolutely sick about all of this. I want to scream at people to read their bibles about stone-throwing.

And - surprise, surprise - the ones who are the most angry were ALL close friends with the Minister of Music who had to leave.

[HypoTypoSis]

My Pastor of 13 years seems to be in trouble, and its kind of got me stunned.

This is a man that meets, without question, all the biblical qualifications to be a deacon, pastor, elder or even a bishop. He is happily married. His children, grown now, are all fine Christians who have a loving relationship with him. He's never been accused of immorality. He is a good preacher. Graduated from college and then from Seminary with 4.0's. Taught bible at a Baptist owned University for a few years. Lives by example. Does visitation, prays over everything, teaching from God's word. Does mission work through the church.

I've never heard an unkind or critical word about him - - until - - I got a letter a few days ago telling me the "personnel committee" was calling a church meeting to vote on whether he should remain the church's pastor or not. A few days later we got another letter saying that the meeting had been "post poned."

I called my Deacons, and said, "I don't want to hear anything that would qualify as a breach of confidentiality, but is there some moral or ethical issue that I need to be aware of?" My deacons said, "We have no idea. We weren't told any more than you were."

Excuse me? ? ? ? My DEACONS were not told that some committee in the church was trying to FIRE my Pastor??

So, I called the head of this personnel committee. I was told that the personnel committee had determined my Pastor had not done anything unethical or immoral. I said, "Then why are you trying to fire him?" They said, "He's a great teacher. A wonderful minister." I said, "Then why are you trying to fire him?" The answer: "He just isn't a good leader."

I said, "He shows up every time the church has a function, no matter what day or the week or when. He participates with a smile on his face. He preaches and teaches the Gospel of Christ. He has a good marriage. He does visitation door to door, and in the hospital. When we host the homeless, he and his family stay with them. When we didn't meet our missions-goal, he sold his personal belongings and gave the money to the missions. He prays. He studies his bible. So.. what kind of leadership issues do you have with him?"

He should have told the church the Minister of Music was having an affair. "Excuse me? He found out about the affair, confronted the Minister of Music, told him if it was true, he could not longer serve the church in the capacity of Associate Minister of Music, and counseled him according to God's word, then arranged marriage counseling. The Music Minister rendered his resignation, the Pastor went with him to talk to the deacons. How is this wrong."

"He covered up the sin."

Excuse me?

"He hid the sin."

"You know this for a fact?"

"Well, no, but obviously, if *** resigned in May, and this affair began in January.....,"

"So you think the Pastor knew about the affair since January?"

"No, but he SHOULD have."

"Why should he have?"

"He was doing counseling with the couple."

"Soooooo, you are mad that he didn't breach the confidentiality of the pastoral relationship?"

"No, you shouldn't put it like that."

"How should I put it?"

"He should have been doing evaluations on all the people. He hasn't."

"Aren't you the personnel committee? Weren't these people all called by the Deacon Search committee, reviewed by your committe, and presented to the whole church? How did it suddenly become my Pastor's problem?"

"You don't understand, any good business....."

"This is GOD's business."

"Yes, but I'm sure God called me to this committee....,"

"What did the deacons say?"

"We have terrible deacons, they don't do anything."

"You aren't a deacon are you? I know Cindy isn't. Women aren't. So a committee, made up of unordained people, decided, on their own, to fire my preacher?"

"Well, the leadership committee...."

"Oh, yes, that's the same leadership committee that told me that saving souls wasn't the business of the church, that it was more important that people feel comfortable in worship."

"You're making this difficult."

"Well, yes. Yes I am. Out of the blue, I find out you're trying to fire my pastor, and you can't even give me a solid reason WHY you want to fire my pastor. You bad mouth my deacons. And you tell me that you were lead to this committee, while you are using the committe to try to fire a man who dedicated his entire life to God's work. Do you have any idea why I love my Pastor and his family? Let me tell you; when I was going through a terrible crisis in my life, he happened to call the house - by accident if you don't consider the obvious fact God's hand was on the phone. I burst into tears when he told me who he was and apologized for calling. He immediately prayed with me, and asked me if he could send people to my home. A few hours later, friends of his showed up with fresh baked cookies, hugs, and prayers. The next morning, his daughter showed up to take my daughter out. A few days later, someone else showed up, saying he sent them. I needed, more than anything in the world, to know God was with me, and God used THAT family to show me he was."

"Well, that's good, but he doesn't even have a performance evaluation form."

"How many hours do you and your committee people spend on your knees in prayer about this stuff? Ever hold a meeting where that is ALL you did? Or do you do the standard, walk in, have a prayer, get down to business."

"Well, we have work to do."

"My pastor and his family pray about everything."

"We confronted him, and he didn't even answer us."

"Did he refuse to answer? Or did he say he wanted to talk to the Lord?"

"Well.... I.. these were just yes or no questions."

"Did it occur to you, that in MANY churchs, the Senior Pastor would be the final authority on how to handle his office staff, and that you would be there to ASSIST him? Not to tear him down?"

"Well, in a small church, but we're not..."

"We're not large. I was from a large church. Believe me, most senior pastors would not put up with this."

"Well, hopefully this will all come to a vote soon."

"NOT until you talk to my deacons. YOU don't have a right to call a church conference. My deacons do."

"But the deacons here are worthless."

"To a man that wants the Pastor to run the church like Enron they might be. My chuch isn't Enron."

People - - I am stunned.
I am angry.

My Pastor and his wife are just.... sick.

What would you do?

What can you say? That is the role of the Baptist rule! Your mind is as quick as your tongue; your forebears must claim deep New York as their early home! Best to your pastor, he sounds like a good man of God who was doing right in His eyes.

[JacobHall86]

Hey, I am studying to be a Youth Pastor, if your pastor does leave pass on this message, I would work for him everyday for hte rest of my life based on his actions here. He is right, and he alteast has my support.

[JPPT1974]

I will support him 100% too
And that he has my prayer and
My supporting of him
Praying that all goes well for him
Good luck!