can we be angels?

[Atha]

ahh... i know this is just a worldly try.. but the angels of us humans, would we be able to get by.. even make sure that everyone survives? Jesus says if you save the world but loose your soul what good is it? well i dont really know how we would loose our souls... believing in Jesus, you know we go to Heaven, right? more fallowing Jesus we go to Heaven, so the angels of us humans, who are Jesus' Angels, we hope.. would be the hopefully closest fallowing allowed.. its just an advancement in the discipleship, which seemed to disapear, at least how i see... so my side of the debate is that yes we can try to be angels... you know God The Father has servants that are Angels, we could be Jesus The Son's servants... even the hope is this holy light that we fulfill Jesus wishes that He be saved from His Death.. so yea we should start the angels, they truly would save anyone they could... and God wouldnt, i dont think hold them down, like if someone was dieing and we walked by and healed them with Jesus Christ's Name, they would be able to live, and God would still have everything in Heaven ready for when they finally do walk on.. its also a way to become as holy as we can be... each person individually woudl be hoped to have the eternal desire to be Holy always and in all things... so i say yea yea.. please give your light on the choice you make...

[tapero]

Dear Atha,

No, I don't believe we become angels, but I appreciate your post. Love, Tapero

[mont974x4]

Nope, We will judge the angels tho.

I do think I understand your idea tho. If we are truly loving others as we should then we may appear to be "angels" to whoever we are helping. In fact, stopping to change an elderly couples tire I have been called a "God send" and an "angel". Is this where you were going in the OP?

[Atha]

its more like can we start a group called angels... cause i think they would have to be good always, and well it would be a good way for people to know about the angels if a buncha kids are trying to teach them...
but about the judging i think thats in HEaven, where we just kinda laugh or something...

[plmarquette]

Some of the angel dialogue is a wrong spin on this passage which is a response to the pharisees asking a question , regarding a story from the book of Tobit about 1 lady who had 7 husbands & they asked Jesus who would be her husband in heaven , his response was they will be " like an angel , spiritual being " who neither marry or are bethroded ...

...Matthew 22:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&verse=30&version=31&context=verse) At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

[Monica02]

We are people and angels are angels. People become saints in Heaven and angels will always be angels.

[Blake4000]

That was a little incoherent. The truth being. Every single human on earth is a FALLEN ANGEL. But by the grace of God and mercy, we may become angels again and go home to heaven. Amen

[mont974x4]

That was a little incoherent. The truth being. Every single human on earth is a FALLEN ANGEL. But by the grace of God and mercy, we may become angels again and go home to heaven. Amen


What scriptures support the idea that people are fallen angels?

[Blake4000]

All human+beings (soul) were thrown out of heaven along with Satan. Satan is the lord of this world, this is why we are told not to love this world and the things in it. John 2:15-17 and Rev:12:7-9
We being the angels that fell from heaven in that war, we fought in Heaven, we are on earth to learn lessons and earn the right to go back home to Heaven. Amen.
Praise be to the Father the most merciful and compassionate, worthy of all glory! Amen!

[mont974x4]

God created humans in Genesis chapters 1 and 2.

What Scriptures give the impression that humans are fallen angels?


BTW, John 2:15-17 covers Christ cleaning out the temple. Rev 12:7-9 talks about Michael fighting the dragon but if you go back to verse 4 it talks about the dragon being cast down and he draws 1/3 of the stars with him.


We can not earn our right to go to Heaven. We can't earn it and we have no right to it. It is God's grace, His gift through Christ our Lord and Savior.

[Blake4000]

HUMANS don't go to heaven, their souls do. Humans are the animals we live in, they will one day, die, and rot in the ground into dust. They do not live on. This is the first death, the second death is soul death on judgment day if you are not deemed worthy.

First, I belong to no religion no organized religion or priest tells me how to understand the bible. GOD alone will do that for me. I have seen the truth,

Rev: 12;7-9
"There was war in heaven: Prince Michael(whom we know on earth as Jesus Christ) and his angels fought against the dragon(Satan)@ and the dragon fought and his angels(US on earth, here for another chance to redeem ourselfs) And prevailed not: neither was their place found any more in heaven(home,morning star) And the Great dragon was cast out(to earth), that old serpent, called the devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels (us people) were cast out with him.

That is the proper reading of revelation. People have to UNDERSTAND the verse to have any hope of enlightenment on scripture.

Jesus (Prince Michael) came to earth and said "I AM THE WAY (you have to be) TO THE FATHER.
Jesus also said, THE LAW of Moses till applies today, not one iota of it shall pass until all the prophecy's in the bible are fulfilled. Amen. Matthew 5:17-20

JESUS WORDS (PEACE BE UPON HIM!)
"Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. 18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

He didn't say "JUST BELIEVE IN ME AND YOUR SAVED. incorrect. Jesus was God's word in the flesh.

For this reason. all sins, including homosexuality and adultry are forbidden and doing them is breaking the law. They are to be slain/killed according to the Law, if you don't like this. Then you are not on God's side, thats just the way it is Im afraid.

I hope you see the truth of what I wrote. its important.

[mont974x4]

1. What Scriptures suport the claim that WE are angels?
2. What Scriptures support the claim of Christ being MIchael?
3. This isn;t a thread about the law but other passages would tend to clarify how we as Gentile believers and as the NT church in general are addressed concerning the law.
4. Jesus did not say we had to be like Him to be saved....we can NOT save ourseleves or earn our way into Heaven....that contradicts the Gospel message.


You are right this body will not go to Heaven, good thing we are more than just flesh and bones.

[Blake4000]

Of course you can save yourselfs, you must be LIKE Jesus. There is no other way. Lead a good life, fulfill the commandments Jesus said, "LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS I HAVE LOVED THEE" and "Treat others as you would have yourself treated" Above all, to keep the rules, LOVE ONE ANOTHER!
Peace to you Mont, Bless :)

[mont974x4]

Rom 4:1 What, then, shall we say Abraham our father, to have found, according to flesh?
Rom 4:2 for if Abraham by works was declared righteous, he hath to boast--but not before God;
Rom 4:3 for what doth the writing say? `And Abraham did believe God, and it was reckoned to him--to righteousness;'
Rom 4:4 and to him who is working, the reward is not reckoned of grace, but of debt;
Rom 4:5 and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned--to righteousness:
Rom 4:6 even as David also doth speak of the happiness of the man to whom God doth reckon righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7 `Happy they whose lawless acts were forgiven, and whose sins were covered;
Rom 4:8 happy the man to whom the Lord may not reckon sin.'

Rom 5:1 Having been declared righteous, then, by faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have the access by the faith into this grace in which we have stood, and we boast on the hope of the glory of God.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye would have known my Father also: from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father.


We can NOT save ourselves. Our salvation is through Christ alone. All our works apart from Him are dead works. When we are His we obey Him because we love Him.


Still, I would like to see verses that say humans are Angels.

[brimac]

It has always bothered me to hear someone say stuff like, "grandma is looking over us from heaven, she's a guardian angel." The reason it bothers me is because there is nothing anywhere in scripture which states that humans will ever become angels. As stated above we will judge angels. Angels and humans are two seperate groups of beings. In fact angels who disobeyed go to a place called tartarus, whereas humans go to hades when they die! They dont even go to the same place!

[hiumble1]

Blake you sound Mormon to me or mormon influenced with some sprinklings of islam and new age....
When you look at the Bible the old testament points to the new testament. The old testament is the new testament concealed and the new testament is old testament revealed.


As to the us being angels.... no we are not and can not be...

[LivingWordUnity]

No. We can be saints, but we can't be angels. And angels can't be humans.

God created humans to always be humans and angels to always be angels.

Humans who go to Heaven (saints) will have a glorified body, but they will not be angels.

When someone says that someone is an angel, it's only an expression. It's doesn't mean that they are literally an angel.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus; :hug:

Men can be termed as angels, yes. And Only man can fall from heaven, and is symbolic of christians of Kingdom of heaven in hearts of men, then turning from their first estate. or renouncing God, and falling from heaven.

Angels do not fall from heaven. lest they are men called angels.

rev 12;7 of Dragon and his angels cast down to earth. is Satan and his angels of evil or men. rev 12;9 tells you the dragon is satan. And Michael defeating dragon, is same defeat as Lamb, Jesus defeating Satan. as rev 12;10-11 so says. Angels of God do not fall from heaven, for Gods will is done there. Only man rebels against God. And the spirit in man which rebels, is the Spirit of Satan. This is 3000 years of Hebrew Judaic tradition of Satan. As Jesus Called Peter Satan for words in rebellion unto Gods will for Jesus. Sin and evil only comes from man, which originated from Aams original sin. Which is " disobedience unto Gods will"

I pray my words do not offend any one. God bless C.F. and all who use it.:wave:

[hiumble1]

sorry spirit, something is wrong with your statement.
There are fallen angels.
god bless

[brimac]

sorry spirit, something is wrong with your statement.
There are fallen angels.
god bless
Yes, and there is actually a special place called Tartarus where angels who sinned are kept in chains waiting for Judgement day!(Jude 6)

[mont974x4]

we will judge angels


and we are already saints, if we are His

[Jerrell]

Angels are sinless beings who serve God. So, when we are resuurected incorruptible, we will become like the angels, but we will not be angels. Angels are created beings, and mankind is also a created being- we are not re-created to be another being. Can we be like Angels? Yes. Will we be angels? No.

[mont974x4]

Angels can most certainly sin as is evident by Lucifers fall and his taking 1/3rd of the angels with him.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Angels can most certainly sin as is evident by Lucifers fall and his taking 1/3rd of the angels with him.
Greetings in the name of Jesus:

dear Mont: You assurance of Lucifer falling as Angel: would be heresy if you actually had read Isaiah 14.

Which I am sure you didn't and are speaking doctrines of men which someone else told you.

First: Lucifer your claimed angel; No where is that written in Gods word. Second it clearly, I repeat Clearly says in Isaiah 14;16. that Lucifer is a man.

I shall assume you didn't Know your words directly contradict the bible and sound doctrine or you wouldn't say it.

So I ask you to remember the Lords prayer: where Gods will is done in heaven, meaning angels dont fall and rebellion in heaven doesn't exist: and lucifer Written in only one place, Isaiah 14;12, is written as a Man. Isaiah 14;16.

Falling angels and Dante's inferno lexicon of heresy; has no foundation or truth in any teaching of prophets or Jesus or disciples; and true origin of this heresy is middle ages Monks and priest; the times of condemnation of Galileo and Copernicus. Including flat earth and earth age of 6000 years. Why the folly of false doctrine of men continues in contradiction of the word. Continues to amaze me. Mont Just read in total, Isaiah 14. and then tell me again what is certain.

But I forgive all; because they follow the leaders of men, and institutions of men; which deceive men for personal gain.

I pray my words do not offend any one, And I pray that God bless C.F. and all who use it.

[Jerrell]

Let us not fuss over trivial matters of the interpretation of Isaiah 14.

[mont974x4]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

dear Mont: You assurance of Lucifer falling as Angel: would be heresy if you actually had read Isaiah 14.

Which I am sure you didn't and are speaking doctrines of men which someone else told you.

First: Lucifer your claimed angel; No where is that written in Gods word. Second it clearly, I repeat Clearly says in Isaiah 14;16. that Lucifer is a man.

I shall assume you didn't Know your words directly contradict the bible and sound doctrine or you wouldn't say it.

So I ask you to remember the Lords prayer: where Gods will is done in heaven, meaning angels dont fall and rebellion in heaven doesn't exist: and lucifer Written in only one place, Isaiah 14;12, is written as a Man. Isaiah 14;16.

Falling angels and Dante's inferno lexicon of heresy; has no foundation or truth in any teaching of prophets or Jesus or disciples; and true origin of this heresy is middle ages Monks and priest; the times of condemnation of Galileo and Copernicus. Including flat earth and earth age of 6000 years. Why the folly of false doctrine of men continues in contradiction of the word. Continues to amaze me. Mont Just read in total, Isaiah 14. and then tell me again what is certain.

But I forgive all; because they follow the leaders of men, and institutions of men; which deceive men for personal gain.

I pray my words do not offend any one, And I pray that God bless C.F. and all who use it.
That's ok, I happen to like heretics...like Luther.

[hiumble1]

I have read Isaiah 14. And I lean not to my own understanding.
But it seems pretty clear, and you may be in error spiritofprophecy....
And amongst Christian brothers we help... and lift... and move towards the glorious shore.... judgement among brothers, that sounds more like the world...

as we speak many are dieing and going to hell........

[Spiritofprophecy]

greetings in the name of Jesus:

I agree, I am in error all the time. But not on Isaiah 14.

Now if your not of spirit you will attack me, not my words. and Claim I am in error. and not speak unto my error but Judge me alone. Cannot you speak unto my fruit or words? And your faith is in Middle ages discernment of Isaiah 14. Same times as flat earth and 6000 year earth age. you believe that also?


Would you like to point out the error of Isaiah 14. which is sealed prophecy not interpreted by Jesus, yet monks of middle ages did what Jesus did not.

And you should quote complete verses.

" trust in the Lord with all thine heart: and lean not unto thine own understanding".

I pray my words do not offend any one. God bless C.F. and all who use it.

[mont974x4]

To point out error, especially as lovingly he did, is not an attack. It is as we should be.

[hiumble1]

greetings in the name of Jesus:

I agree, I am in error all the time. But not on Isaiah 14.

Now if your not of spirit you will attack me, not my words. and Claim I am in error. and not speak unto my error but Judge me alone. Cannot you speak unto my fruit or words? And your faith is in Middle ages discernment of Isaiah 14. Same times as flat earth and 6000 year earth age. you believe that also?


Would you like to point out the error of Isaiah 14. which is sealed prophecy not interpreted by Jesus, yet monks of middle ages did what Jesus did not.

And you should quote complete verses.

" trust in the Lord with all thine heart: and lean not unto thine own understanding".

I pray my words do not offend any one. God bless C.F. and all who use it.

That which you accuse me of you commit....
Not once do you point out where erros might be by explaining the scripture and where it is that we may be in error. No, you attack me, You judge.
That which you accuse others of, You commit without disregard of your words.
Not once did I attack you... but pointed out you MAY be in error, having (myself) read Isaiah 14 and not listening to others.
And telling me how to quote versus? I am not following you.... Do you not understand What it is I say....

[epyon]

That was a little incoherent. The truth being. Every single human on earth is a FALLEN ANGEL. But by the grace of God and mercy, we may become angels again and go home to heaven. Amen

:scratch:Where in the Bible does it say that we are fallen angel?

[mont974x4]

It doesn't. When reading the Bible it is clear that humans and angels are entirely seperate creations.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus: :hug:

Now Insults are when People say personal things about people personally: now I spoke to people speaking not to words but to the individuals merit. which is truth not insult. Now those speaking to me, saying they "Like heretics." Is a form of calling someone that. But I digress

all speaking In this forum I claim as brothers.

Those claiming to have read, isaiah 14; and believe Lucifer is a Angel, did not do that because of what they read. but what they were taught. Isaiah 14;12." How hath thou fallen from heaven O Lucifer" To be sure of truth, I submit that this scripture is in Question form." how hath". now how hath in question is almost always used in scriptures as a form to denote Mystery. Why is this a mystery. Isaiah 14 a jewish book, Know by all jews, believed not that any could fall from heaven, None. for Gods will is done in heaven, Also is written in Lords prayer.

Now second the jews upon reading isaiah 14; termed the King of babylon, and doing things men do.; and then in Isaiah 14;16. specifically calling Lucifer a Man.

Now I submit if Lucifer is an angel, claimed by many; then you openly contradict isaiah 14;16. which says he is a man.

And No where is it written in scriptures that angels fall from heaven.. now in Jude 6. the angels in hell, are Humans and the verses related to this are exact as written about man. as all men judged on Judgement day, as written. And is well known in Jewish verse, as Man poetically called angel.

Now Lucifer written as Man isaiah 14;16, and fallen from heaven. 14;12. is what men know today, what christians do, when they renounce God, and call themselves God, then poetically having Kingdom of heaven in their hearts. Can be termed as Falling from heaven. Which does fulfill all verses and not contradicting any.

Now let me be clear. falling angels and rebellion in heaven is never been or has been a doctrine of Jewish concepts; which Jesus held to these doctrines. The Lucifer as fallen angel is totally middle ages doctrines of men. which also relates to western mens pagan roots.

Sound doctrine is Omnipotent One God. Gods will done in heaven. No falling angels lest its man, or rebellion in heaven. And only one battle in heaven by Jesus, or michael or the lamb or God. which defeats satan One time and one time only, which cause satans fall from heaven, in ability to " accuse man". and satans on earth being the " spirit of disobedience"

God to romans 5. on original sin,; which only existed in man. and Satan the snake is mans disobedience unto God.

Let me sum it Up. Dante's inferno of Middle ages, is totally false, and totally against jewish theology of satan and Gods omnipotence. There is Only One thing God allows to Sin and be disobedience, thats man. now this disobedience in men, is termed by God, as Satan. or spirit of., And why and how Jesus Called Peter Satan.
Satan or evil did not exist until adam. romans 5.

Now if you in spirit believe Dante's inferno doctrines, which does contradict sound established doctrines, you will never be able to discern the hidden truths of God.

I would appreciate all comments directed to my words, and not my persona or worth or heretical nature. As I shall never address people individually unto their merit; but speak only to their fruits ( words ) and unto the word of God, as relating unto men.

I praise all who seek discernment into these things;

I pray no one takes offense by my words.
God bless C.F. and all who use it. :wave:

[Spiritofprophecy]

sorry spirit, something is wrong with your statement.
There are fallen angels.
god bless
Greetings in the name of Jesus;

dear brother in Christ: i would like you to point those out to me. for besides job jude rev 12 isaiah 14. which all are men. and either say so, or related to solid scriptures of men. I know no other place it is written.

And if you suggest that Angels of God fall from heaven, and there is rebellion in heaven. Can you relate this doctrine with Gods Omnipotence, and Gods will done in heaven, and also claim angels fall, and rebellion in heaven. That to me seems totally contradictive; and Only man is of evil and sin. Which adams evil and sin was the origin. romans 5.

Now again on Isaian 14; if interpretation of 14;12 is removed, each verse is about a king and man of earth, and 14;16, actually saying he is a man. Now forgive me for saying itl; but if one says, Lucifer is angels, which nowhere is written; is to totally contradict isaiah 14;16. which does specifically say he is a man. I am confused on why if Isaiah 14;16 says lucifer is a man. why I should then accept Lucifer is fallen angel, which then contradicts Gods will being done in heaven, and not even written as angel?

But I am of belief is genuine. but tell me. did you not read Isaiah 14;16. and it saying He is man. As you said you read Isaiah 14, about the King of babylon.

I also submit; that the Great man of sin. which is termed the abomination which maketh desolate, and called " anti christ:. does exactly the same things, as written in isaiah 14 about Lucifer. who also is called a man. isaiah 14;16.

But as all you may believe what you will, but Gods words, say Lucifer is a man. as does the name denote Great man of day. or " Morning star"

I pray my words do not offend, God bless C.F. and all who use it.

[Spiritofprophecy]

It doesn't. When reading the Bible it is clear that humans and angels are entirely seperate creations.
Greetings in the name of Jesus:

dear Monte:.

I am only saying one thing about angels; which is strong Jewish truth; and Known as poetically true; that Angels can in scripts also depict humans. which is about sin and rejecting God or former estate, which Only men do evil or reject God. Which God only allows sin by man.

you may give verse reference to support your contention: but repeating " its clear" its clearly written". and not give reference verse. its not really of God is it.

I submit Jewish 3000 year old truth; that Only men fall and sin; and rebel. and Gods will is in heaven. and other than man. there is not disobedience unto God. And this is Jewish doctrine and doctrine believed and kept by Jesus. which is supported by scriptures.

I thank you for your interests and input in Honor and respect and desire of discernment of Gods words.

[Jerrell]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

dear Monte:.

I am only saying one thing about angels; which is strong Jewish truth; and Known as poetically true; that Angels can in scripts also depict humans. which is about sin and rejecting God or former estate, which Only men do evil or reject God. Which God only allows sin by man.

you may give verse reference to support your contention: but repeating " its clear" its clearly written". and not give reference verse. its not really of God is it.

I submit Jewish 3000 year old truth; that Only men fall and sin; and rebel. and Gods will is in heaven. and other than man. there is not disobedience unto God. And this is Jewish doctrine and doctrine believed and kept by Jesus. which is supported by scriptures.

I thank you for your interests and input in Honor and respect and desire of discernment of Gods words.

That is not some Jewish Truth. The Jews including Jude, a disciple of Jesus understood that some Angels fell and are now kept in Hell (Jude 1:6). Peter clearly says: "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment" 2 Peter 2:4.


It is clear from scripture that angels can sin or rebel against God. Such as happened long ago with the rebellion of Satan, and with the Nephlim.

[mont974x4]

KJV (with Strongs)
12 How349 art thou fallen5307 from heaven,4480, 8064 O Lucifer,1966 son1121 of the morning!7837how art thou cut down1438 to the ground,776 which didst weaken2522, 5921 the nations!1471

NASB
12 "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!

ESV
12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!

YLT
12 How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations.


There is no mystery. It's an exclamation and a statement of fact.

The word "man" in verse 16 is simply to denote personhood, not necessarily human. Note that the original word in this verse is diferent than that translated man elsewhere, such as Genesis 1:1

Basically, there is no contradiction.



There simply is no proof, no biblical basis for the idea that we are angels.




BTW, as to the hertic remark, you had accused me of heresy, in a rather round about way. I looked up the word a few weeks ago and it is generally a person who speaks out against the established beliefs, usually in reference to the RCC. I was thinking of Luther when I said I liked heretics and really don't mind being lumped in with them.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus: :hug:

I am not questioning what Jude says: but Again I say it is strong...let me repeat strong jewish tradition that angels can be used to describe men usually done poetically in symbolism. Now one can discern: if you read all of Jude you know they are talking about men. and the angels poetically christians, who then reject Jesus their first estate, angels because once of Jesus but rebelled, and are Just as men are in hell, waiting for Judgement day. Which Only men are judged. which Jude compares dominion of men in sodom; jude 8

also this agrees with Isaiah 14;16 the man Lucifer. falls from heaven, and reserved place in hell. Here it actually calls him a man. Men who were Once of Kingdom of heaven in their hearts; who turn from their first estate after the flesh. It is true. this contradict not other sound doctrine; for those who have ears to hear.

And also man can even be called Gods. And let me say that you are right that it says angels; but this is a choice verse to believe what one heart so seeks to believe.

Let me explain Knowing that men can be called angels, you must discern this and make a decision on what you want and think it should or could mean.

Now if it is angels, then God cannot control his angels in heaven and they are rebelling; which also means Gods will is not done in heaven.

Now if you say God is Omnipotent and will is done in heaven and angels do not fall, and poetically men can be termed as Angels. Then does this angel depiction burn true to the word, as to men in hell. And yes it does. Another test of faith; some cannot receive the secret things of God; And " it is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honor of kings is to search out a matter."

Just try to comprehend, that its poetic symbolism and its a man. and see if its not as all things of men in hell are.

For these things are spiritually discern; Line upon line precept upon precept, here a little there a little.

Good to speak to you again My friend. I pray God protect and keep you safe.

God bless C.F. and all who use it. :wave:
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[Spiritofprophecy]

KJV (with Strongs)
12 How349 art thou fallen5307 from heaven,4480, 8064 O Lucifer,1966 son1121 of the morning!7837how art thou cut down1438 to the ground,776 which didst weaken2522, 5921 the nations!1471

NASB
12 "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!

ESV
12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!

YLT
12 How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations.


There is no mystery. It's an exclamation and a statement of fact.

The word "man" in verse 16 is simply to denote personhood, not necessarily human. Note that the original word in this verse is diferent than that translated man elsewhere, such as Genesis 1:1

Basically, there is no contradiction.



There simply is no proof, no biblical basis for the idea that we are angels.




BTW, as to the hertic remark, you had accused me of heresy, in a rather round about way. I looked up the word a few weeks ago and it is generally a person who speaks out against the established beliefs, usually in reference to the RCC. I was thinking of Luther when I said I liked heretics and really don't mind being lumped in with them.
Greetings in the name of Jesus:

Dear monte: your whole basis is ont Isaiah 14;12. which each and every interpretation, begins with " how " Now since you do not discern what " how" represent which is a Mystery. and why Jews treated it so for a 800 years before Christ. remove the one verse. Which you cannot deny is a question? and I say you discern it poorly.

Now after removal of Isaiah 14;12. and reading all of Isaiah 14. Not only is it a man, but the great man of sin, who destroys his own country and his own people.

now if you discern as you claim you also can discern the parable of talents, of what talents are poetically as in Kingdom of heaven. Which on talent God says: " he who has much more shall be given; and he who has little what little he has shall be taken away". what is this talent, which is not money?

I pray my words do not offend any. God bless C.F. and all who use it.

[Spiritofprophecy]

greetings in the name of Jesus::hug:


Now on the use of heresy, its when the word says something exactly without equivocation, and someone claims its not true.. now man is never ever named a man, and not a man. but angel and god, is used also for man.

Now this man lucifer is King of babylon. also verse 20 is great depiction of human, in burial, who destroy his own people. and he is a seed of evil doers. which only men do evil.

Now I ask; that since you hear me. and call my meat contemptible. and refuse me ear to hear. I ask you not to enjoin me in discourse in future. which is my right. now I gave you plausible and historic truth on Isaiah 14. and you claim its a fallen angel which contradicts Gods Omnipotence in heaven, and also contradicts the Lords prayer of, Gods will done in heaven.

You may believe as you so choose but saying Isaiah 14;16 Man is " denote personhood"..wow...I do not think we can have civilized discourse...So again i ask. lest you answer correct on " parable of talents, of what is talents which God takes from he who has little. I respect not your discernment of the word. And seek not to hear what you say about something I believe your discern poorly. And for the record if a chapter says man, and not angel, but you reverse claiming angel of God, thats never done. but angel can be man. yes. as in Jude and in job. Christians who leave their first estate as christians and fall from heaven, as is this man fallen from heaven.

I pray my words do not offend any God bless C.F. and all who use it. :wave: :wave:

[hiumble1]

spirirt... you are too funny...
You ask me to give you proof but then say I can not give you certain scripture because you believe them to be otherwise. You crack me up....
And just be certain, you did attack me earlier, So when you continue to say others (to which I am assuming I am a part of) attacked, would wrong on your side. To which justifying an attack on another would be wrong (even if it be with with words; for it comes from the heart).
I do not agree with you as to understanding if there are fallen angels or not...
Than who do you battle with?....
When Sin entered the world, who initiated Temptation?
When Jesus Cast out Demons from where did they come?...
When The bibles speaks of being cast into hell (which was meant for Satan and the fallen) why did it speak of it in such a way as to indicate God did not want Man to end up there but would Cast Satan and the Fallen there?
I will stop for now.... Have to go to work, and seek and save that which is lost!

[mont974x4]

Taking a verse out in order to get Scripture to say what you want it to is very dangerous, as is redefining words. Just some friendly advice.

BTW, there is a diference between:
"how you have fallen" and how have you fallen. ONe is a question and one is a statement of fact.


Lastly,
"man" from Is 14:16
H376
אישׁ
'îysh
eesh
Contracted for H582 (or perhaps rather from an unused root meaning to be extant); a man as an individual or a male person; often used as an adjunct to a more definite term (and in such cases frequently not expressed in translation.) : - also, another, any (man), a certain, + champion, consent, each, every (one), fellow, [foot-, husband-] man, (good-, great, mighty) man, he, high (degree), him (that is), husband, man [-kind], + none, one, people, person, + steward, what (man) soever, whoso (-ever), worthy. Compare H802.


and "man" from Gen 1:27
H120
אדם
'âdâm
aw-dawm'
From H119; ruddy, that is, a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.): - X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus: :hug:

Dear Humble:

I am sorry that you feel I have slighted you if you do: but I agree I probably did: for I have not in Knowledge even addressed you.

Dear sir after reading past posts I see you did address me in posts, which I am sorry to say I did not know it: for I am guilty of reading to many threads and not reading all posters in threads. I do apologize.

But after hearing you did read Isaiah 14. and still feel that Lucifer is an angel, when this is never written in isa 13 in total. and it describes him as King of babylon and being a man, and not being buried as others and destroying his own land and his own people, and deceiving the nations. Exactly as " great man of sin" so does. This depiction fits many other verses of end day man who is " abomination which maketh desolate". and which correlates in perfect depiction of this same man.

Now the principle of which I am founded; is Old testament jewish precepts of satan. Understanding comes from Knowing what allows Gods discernment.
Isaiah 28; this chapter is a last day of men and speaking to us. and in verse 9. " whom shall he teach Knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrines? them that are weaned from the milk and drawn from the breasts.10 for precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little."

Now one must have Jewish roots of truth to know what drawn from the milk, and weaned from the breast so means. also discerned by spirit> and then one applies precept upon precept.

Now according to sound doctrines of Precepts of truth. I cannot lay the precept of falling angels, for God is Omnipotent. Precept, and Gods will is done in heaven; Precept. Now I can by precept, say Men fall from heaven, Which since Jesus died and christians have Kingdom of heaven in their hearts. They also can in poetical terms be called angels. Also Sin exists not until it is found in man, Original sin. and Precept God Only allows disobedience where God so a allows or intends which is man. its the only place; and sin and evil is always related there unto. Also precept. " the root of al evil is the Love of money."

Now let me say that the concept of Falling angels is no where ever, I repeat ever accepted in old testament doctrines or Jewish precept. Now people can point to Job and Jude as of angels leaving their first estates. but this " Dante's inferno" of angels and power as brothers of God, or fallen angels is never a doctrine.

Now this doctrine is only from Middle ages interpretations of Isaiah 14; and rev 12. and both are wrong interpretations. One cannot lay the precept of falling angels upon precept accepted as Gods will done in heaven. Also it would suggest that angels have free will, which is not a laid precept of God.

Here is a secret from God. that God hides his truths in parable and phrases that Gods truths are hidden, and mans desire for his precepts of mans heart can be revealed in his faith.

To discern these things one must be humble unto Gods words and truths alone, and not lean unto our own understandings, or desires.

Now men can be called angels and Gods. And these are of Christians of Jesus which are like Gods and angels, and depictions of these christians who turn from Jesus. are Called angels who leave their first estate.

This has merit since Christians are the first to actually have God in them in spirit. and poetically this would be accurate unto Gods precepts and could be laid as Line upon line.

Now the wall one must overcome is the Man as angel;. which is a spiritual based truth, which is not against Gods other sound laid doctrines. And one only must see the difference between Children of Kingdom and Jesus, and those before Like " John the baptist" was the greatest born to woman. yet the least of kingdom of God is greater than he. We are, though not righteous of ourselves, made inheritors unto God, as brothers and sisters unto Jesus, who is God.

Now I lay out what is truth according to sound doctrines, which no where do I. or is my words contradicting Gods words. but falling angels is a contradiction on several sound doctrines. and rev 12. is obviously interpreted wrong. because the dragon is satan. verse 9 says. and also that he is defeated by lamb. which we know is Jesus. and sound doctrine is Jesus defeated satan who then is cast to earth. Now unless you claim God defeated satan twice, then this is the same story cloaked in symbolism. which is the true case, which this is about. verse 5. is Key. " where the child
born to rule the earth with a rod of Iron" as jesus born of woman of 12 stars. which is Israel, or twelve tribes which bore Jesus. I only ask you to Understand this, and consider. as with Isaiah 14; and discern 14;16 man as truth.

You may believe or not, you may hear or not: It is not for me to cause or make people believe, but to speak unto the truth. And I did, and you do hear. I do not speak without authority to do so.

I pray my words do not offend any, God bless C.F. and all who use it. :wave:
</IMG>

[mont974x4]

If he was a man, as in a human man, the he would have to be buried as other men. Otherwise God is a liar for His word says that it is appointed to men to die once and then judgment.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

I would respectfully disagree. And Atta mediber everite?

how you have fallen cannot be true. for it in hebrew would be " how did you fall." using hebrew verbs.

But I shall not argue, as you so state, that Gods words are not accurate. I say it says as KJV so states. " how hast thou fallen from heaven"

Now that question is directly spoken unto the question of established Jewish doctrines about Gods omnipotence. As Wow. how can this be. that Lucifer can fall from heaven since Gods will is done there.

Which Jews could not answer and didn't but we christians can Know that men can fall, because Heaven is within man through Jesus;

You can deny this, and probably will. but it does contradict Omnipotence of God, and Lords prayer as Gods will is done in heaven. which is established sound doctrines. which would eliminate laying this line as truth. For you cannot have contradictions in Gods truths. except in mans false doctrines and poor discernments.

lest you can discern little things, like parable of talents, i do not seek your wisdom of discernment on this. If you do not seek to hear, do not address me, or seek discourse lest you do so in respect and love. you may worship as you so please, Just dont include me.

I pray my words do not anger of offend any, God bless Christian Forum, and all who use it.

[mont974x4]

I have never questioned the accuracy of God's Word. I stated where you erred in your translation. I found your comment to be insulting and I will knock the dust from my sandals.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

Let me address the word Heresy:.

when people seek to deny what is written. and Say well it doesn't actually mean what it says, It means something else. On its own that can have truth, but when you then add New doctrine, or doctrine which Clearly contradicts established doctrines, or one or more doctrines, then this taking away of words written, is a form of Heresy. This can be done in many ways.

But Gods words are pure. and without error, only mans interpretations are of error. This truth is based in spiritual truths and faith; which I will not argue its truths or merits according to Gods words as true.

One may stretch Gods words and truths as far as possible, unless you break or contradict other words or doctrines already established. Line upon line, precept upon precept.

Let me add one truth. God is omnipotent and Gods will is done in heaven. Which omits, that rebellion is there, or that angels of God, can rebel and fall, this is not possible, and Only in middle ages was this doctrine so established in heresy unto other doctrines. Saying Gods will is not done in heaven, thats wrong. As is middle ages doctrines of flat earth, and 6000 year earth age.

All must decide.. if Gods will is done in heaven as Written; or that rebellion rules and angels fall and have free will. Man does, but not angels of God.

I am not looking to argue this point. for to me, it is definitive, and there is not debate. Dont waste your and my time. deny this if you must, but suffer me not your words if you so deny.

I pray my words do not anger or offend, for that is not my intent. God bless all C.F. and all who use it.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

dear monte...you continue to hold your line..

Gee Isaiah 14;16..does say man. and Isaiah 14 doesn't say falling angels...so I do not translate thats wrong...

Now for me to say, Gods will is done in heaven. you contradict not me, but God to say, Angels of God fall from heaven, rebellion is done in heaven.

So again I state Not only do I not wish to hear your interpretation, nor do I wish to hear your reason for such interpretation.

And again I say. no where , No where is my interpretation in contradiction unto Gods words.

Saying men once of Jesus who rebel, can be termed fallen angels is an absolute truth. And to me is not debateable.

And to say. Angels of God, rebel, is to contradict sound established doctrines of God, and Jesus in lords prayer.

I seek not to disrespect any. but those who deny my rights to discern and interpret scripts in spirit, without contradiction to sound doctrines. and people tell me I must contradict God. I will not hear this.

Let me say, this interpretation is not a new interpretation but 3000 years of Jewish comprehension of satan, and God.

The falling angels is redacted truth of middle ages pagan concepts, which is at most 900 years old. Which is doctrines of Inquisition founders holding flat earth belief, and Galileo, and Copernicus, as liars.

I shall stand against these middle ages falsehoods..which Falling angels of Dante's inferno so originate. These truths are of Sealed last day verses..rev 12, and isa. 14. which Jesus did not interpret, being sealed, but monks 1100 years latter so interpret? and you believe them. no. its today alone that sealed verses of last times are open for Gods revelations.

Monte one more time I say; I claim we have not civilized discourse. and I do not indulge in any other Kind of discourse.

You believe my words and meat of spirit is contemptible; and I verily say: I forgive thee, but ask you to Go in peace, with your own avowed concepts, which I know, and even once accepted as taught me as a child. I know not how to ask you this different other than please do not address me further, on my spiritual concepts which you object unto. I do not condemn or insult your beliefs or rights. Only that you not enjoin them unto me in the future. We have both heard each other, I do not disrespect your view. And I ask you to respect my wishes.

I pray my words do not offend. God bless C.F. and all who use it.

[Aibrean]

For those who "think" we will be angels. Don't just grab one verse as "proof". You need to read the whole chapter (or more) in context and ideally multiple translations. Knowledge of Greek is a plus.

[Spiritofprophecy]

greetings in the name of Jesus:

dear Aibrean:

If your comments are in reference to my post, I would only add, that the term angel; can be used to describe man poetically, and used about Christians poetically

I pray my words do not offend, God bless C.F.and all who use it.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

dear monte:..

your reference to me in biblical action " Shake the dust from your sandals". is not applicable to this occasion, for I did not refuse to hear you, Nor have I denied the Good news of Christ. Insults you claim and avowed as given, were originated in the other direction.

And yet I shall Say, God and I love thee, and wish you well.

I pray my words do not offend, God bless C.F. and all who use it.

[hiumble1]

Greetings in the name of Jesus: :hug:

Dear Humble:

I am sorry that you feel I have slighted you if you do: but I agree I probably did: for I have not in Knowledge even addressed you.

Dear sir after reading past posts I see you did address me in posts, which I am sorry to say I did not know it: for I am guilty of reading to many threads and not reading all posters in threads. I do apologize.

But after hearing you did read Isaiah 14. and still feel that Lucifer is an angel, when this is never written in isa 13 in total. and it describes him as King of babylon and being a man, and not being buried as others and destroying his own land and his own people, and deceiving the nations. Exactly as " great man of sin" so does. This depiction fits many other verses of end day man who is " abomination which maketh desolate". and which correlates in perfect depiction of this same man.

Now the principle of which I am founded; is Old testament jewish precepts of satan. Understanding comes from Knowing what allows Gods discernment.
Isaiah 28; this chapter is a last day of men and speaking to us. and in verse 9. " whom shall he teach Knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrines? them that are weaned from the milk and drawn from the breasts.10 for precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little."

Now one must have Jewish roots of truth to know what drawn from the milk, and weaned from the breast so means. also discerned by spirit> and then one applies precept upon precept.

Now according to sound doctrines of Precepts of truth. I cannot lay the precept of falling angels, for God is Omnipotent. Precept, and Gods will is done in heaven; Precept. Now I can by precept, say Men fall from heaven, Which since Jesus died and christians have Kingdom of heaven in their hearts. They also can in poetical terms be called angels. Also Sin exists not until it is found in man, Original sin. and Precept God Only allows disobedience where God so a allows or intends which is man. its the only place; and sin and evil is always related there unto. Also precept. " the root of al evil is the Love of money."

Now let me say that the concept of Falling angels is no where ever, I repeat ever accepted in old testament doctrines or Jewish precept. Now people can point to Job and Jude as of angels leaving their first estates. but this " Dante's inferno" of angels and power as brothers of God, or fallen angels is never a doctrine.

Now this doctrine is only from Middle ages interpretations of Isaiah 14; and rev 12. and both are wrong interpretations. One cannot lay the precept of falling angels upon precept accepted as Gods will done in heaven. Also it would suggest that angels have free will, which is not a laid precept of God.

Here is a secret from God. that God hides his truths in parable and phrases that Gods truths are hidden, and mans desire for his precepts of mans heart can be revealed in his faith.

To discern these things one must be humble unto Gods words and truths alone, and not lean unto our own understandings, or desires.

Now men can be called angels and Gods. And these are of Christians of Jesus which are like Gods and angels, and depictions of these christians who turn from Jesus. are Called angels who leave their first estate.

This has merit since Christians are the first to actually have God in them in spirit. and poetically this would be accurate unto Gods precepts and could be laid as Line upon line.

Now the wall one must overcome is the Man as angel;. which is a spiritual based truth, which is not against Gods other sound laid doctrines. And one only must see the difference between Children of Kingdom and Jesus, and those before Like " John the baptist" was the greatest born to woman. yet the least of kingdom of God is greater than he. We are, though not righteous of ourselves, made inheritors unto God, as brothers and sisters unto Jesus, who is God.

Now I lay out what is truth according to sound doctrines, which no where do I. or is my words contradicting Gods words. but falling angels is a contradiction on several sound doctrines. and rev 12. is obviously interpreted wrong. because the dragon is satan. verse 9 says. and also that he is defeated by lamb. which we know is Jesus. and sound doctrine is Jesus defeated satan who then is cast to earth. Now unless you claim God defeated satan twice, then this is the same story cloaked in symbolism. which is the true case, which this is about. verse 5. is Key. " where the child
born to rule the earth with a rod of Iron" as jesus born of woman of 12 stars. which is Israel, or twelve tribes which bore Jesus. I only ask you to Understand this, and consider. as with Isaiah 14; and discern 14;16 man as truth.

You may believe or not, you may hear or not: It is not for me to cause or make people believe, but to speak unto the truth. And I did, and you do hear. I do not speak without authority to do so.

I pray my words do not offend any, God bless C.F. and all who use it. :wave:
</IMG>
Excuse me Spirit....
You didnt say anything.
I mean, You literally did not say a thing.
Questions I asked, went unanswered....

[Spiritofprophecy]

spirirt... you are too funny...
You ask me to give you proof but then say I can not give you certain scripture because you believe them to be otherwise. You crack me up....
And just be certain, you did attack me earlier, So when you continue to say others (to which I am assuming I am a part of) attacked, would wrong on your side. To which justifying an attack on another would be wrong (even if it be with with words; for it comes from the heart).
I do not agree with you as to understanding if there are fallen angels or not...
Than who do you battle with?....
When Sin entered the world, who initiated Temptation?
When Jesus Cast out Demons from where did they come?...
When The bibles speaks of being cast into hell (which was meant for Satan and the fallen) why did it speak of it in such a way as to indicate God did not want Man to end up there but would Cast Satan and the Fallen there?
I will stop for now.... Have to go to work, and seek and save that which is lost!
Greetings in the name of Jesus:

Dear Humble:

Since I did not address you before: I could not attack you personally, except in correlation unto doctrine. but I follow the " parable of the fruit tree" which is to judge ones fruits or words, and not their merit as person. or Judge not the tree or person.

Now I do address peoples words and interpretations and judge them, but this is not attacking them, but speaking to their words as to evil or of God. As all may speak and Judge my words, but yet not Judge my value as to God or merit. I apologize again if you think attack you, and not your words.

now as to your questions which you say i did not address directly. you are very right. I spoke unto the foundations of why those questions have value unto you. That in hopes you might find the truth yourself.

But let me address. spirits and demons and satan. Are all manifestations of the man which they come. definitive scripture is 1 cor. 10;13 " There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man"

that is for Jesus adam, and you and me. all the same common temptation. temptation like over eating, Internet porn, or drugs. and the list is unlimited the desires of flesh. which also must align in precept to " the root of all evil, is the love of money" Now those demons, and spirits and Satan, if evil must love money. My question, how can satan or demons Love money, without being in man.?
they cannot. Man is where all evil is spawned. And God does not allow evil to exist any where else. being Omnipotent.

as far as falling angels, and rebellion in heaven. Cannot be true, by doctrine if Jesus spoke truth, " Lords prayer" that Gods will is done in heaven. Cant have rebellion in heaven if Gods will is done there or falling angels, but man can fall, if Jesus and kingdom of heaven is in them. then they can fall from heaven.

It is a hidden secret of God. That Only man has sin, and rebels against God. And if one applies this principle unto all satan and word, it will coincide with all verses.

Now the verse about falling angels of God, contradicts the Lords prayer. Saying Gods will is done in heaven. now Christians with heaven in their hearts, can poetically fall from heaven, as Job, and Jude are in reference. As is isaiah 14. where Isaiah 14;16 says lucifer is man. As sin entering world..reference romans 5. speaking of adam and garden as original sin.

were and whom do we battle. " we battle not with flesh and blood, but with powers and principalities in spiritual places". Now who battles..? we battles. against what temptations...Common temptation, where do we battle, in powers and principalities, in our minds and spirit.

I hope that did directly answer your questions. and this is to coincide with 3000 years of doctrines of Judaic understanding of Satan and evil. Which is confirmed by Jesus calling peter Satan, for why And how he did it. Peter was Satan. At that time.

I hope that directly answers your questions, and hope your do not feel I am attacking you, but speaking only to words and interpretations I do speak.

I pray I do not offend, God bless C.F. and all who use it.

[hiumble1]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

Dear Humble:

Since I did not address you before: I could not attack you personally, except in correlation unto doctrine. but I follow the " parable of the fruit tree" which is to judge ones fruits or words, and not their merit as person. or Judge not the tree or person.

Now I do address peoples words and interpretations and judge them, but this is not attacking them, but speaking to their words as to evil or of God. As all may speak and Judge my words, but yet not Judge my value as to God or merit. I apologize again if you think attack you, and not your words.

now as to your questions which you say i did not address directly. you are very right. I spoke unto the foundations of why those questions have value unto you. That in hopes you might find the truth yourself.

But let me address. spirits and demons and satan. Are all manifestations of the man which they come. definitive scripture is 1 cor. 10;13 " There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man"

that is for Jesus adam, and you and me. all the same common temptation. temptation like over eating, Internet porn, or drugs. and the list is unlimited the desires of flesh. which also must align in precept to " the root of all evil, is the love of money" Now those demons, and spirits and Satan, if evil must love money. My question, how can satan or demons Love money, without being in man.?

You wrongly make a connection (by creating one that does not exist...) tell me where in the Bible it says that demons and spirits and Satan love Money?.... How about the Demon possessed man in the Cave... Was he wealthy?... did he not have demons?
they cannot. Man is where all evil is spawned. And God does not allow evil to exist any where else. being Omnipotent.

as far as falling angels, and rebellion in heaven. Cannot be true, by doctrine if Jesus spoke truth, " Lords prayer" that Gods will is done in heaven. Cant have rebellion in heaven if Gods will is done there or falling angels, but man can fall, if Jesus and kingdom of heaven is in them. then they can fall from heaven.

Have not the fallen been cast out of heaven?.... you wrongly suggest God's will is not in effect even when things are going wrong... What was meant for evil God uses for Good.... God is patient and is in control 24/7.. he wishes that none perrish.
.It is a hidden secret of God. That Only man has sin, and rebels against God. And if one applies this principle unto all satan and word, it will coincide with all verses. .Again I believe you to be mistaken... have you read Job?


Now the verse about falling angels of God, contradicts the Lords prayer. Saying Gods will is done in heaven. now Christians with heaven in their hearts, can poetically fall from heaven, as Job, and Jude are in reference. As is isaiah 14. where Isaiah 14;16 says lucifer is man. As sin entering world..reference romans 5. speaking of adam and garden as original sin.

were and whom do we battle. " we battle not with flesh and blood, but with powers and principalities in spiritual places". Now who battles..? we battles. against what temptations...Common temptation, where do we battle, in powers and principalities, in our minds and spirit.

I hope that did directly answer your questions. and this is to coincide with 3000 years of doctrines of Judaic understanding of Satan and evil. Which is confirmed by Jesus calling peter Satan, for why And how he did it. Peter was Satan. At that time.

I hope that directly answers your questions, and hope your do not feel I am attacking you, but speaking only to words and interpretations I do speak.

I pray I do not offend, God bless C.F. and all who use it.
Again I will lean only so far in understanding of scripture from my Jewish Brothers... (they still do not believe that the Messiah has returned when all of the Old testament points to him)
The only reason why Jesus refered to Peter as Satan was because the Spirit of Satan was manifest in him.
Jesus Said he had prayed for Peter for Satan had wished to 'Try' Peter... if it does not all point to Satan being Man (or mankind), than your arguments fall and clearly does not. EVERY Where in the Bible that refers to Satan, the evil one, the fallen one, etc.. when you replace it with man it makes no sense.... Satan is the Prince Of the Skies? WHO CAN THAT BE.. certainly you will not suggest that it is us... for we only began to fly recently...
Friend stop for a second and listen to your own words...
What greater for the enemy to take over someone than to run a PR campaign to state he is not threat,etc.... or better yet he does not exist, he can than walk in un empeded and take over without issue.
If we are in a spiritual Warfare as the Bible explains... than they must be true, otherwise throw out the Word!

I believe you are falling prey to the greatest single threat and disception that Satan has ever done. Caused mankind to not believe that he exist, or that he is a cartoon character and can do no harm.
Having gone out into the mission fields I tell you the truth their is a real enemy and it will manifest itself in man because of the truth (not because of money).

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus;

dear hiumble;

1 timothy 6;10 "for the love of money is the root of all evil"

so satan and demons and spirit have evil, they must be rooted in love of money. simple.

I pray my words do not offend. God bless C.F. and all who use it.

[Spiritofprophecy]

greetings in the name of Jesus;

If every time satan temps man, and one examines the temptation it is a fleshly temptation, and also one common unto man.

God says. evil is " disobedience unto God". God also says, that Satan is" spirit of disobedience" now the two terms are united in disobedience.

And since 1 cor 10; 13 says all temptation is common unto men. and 1 tim 6;10, says" the root of all evil is the love of money". then the connection is all evil is related to man.

Now this concept of satan and man being evil and good in man,is a 3000 year old jewish understanding of Satan, and falling angels is of 11-12 th century A.D. dante's inferno concepts. and is doctrines of orthodoxy. And Isaiah 14;12. about " how hath thou fallen from heaven o Lucifer" is a mystery formed question to Jews, of this sealed end time prophesy. Isaiah 14;16. says Lucifer is a man. Jew didn't know how men could fall from heaven, so this was sealed verse. But is open today, as Christians have Jesus and kingdom of God in their hearts; and if they fall from God then they can be termed as " falling from heaven".. But angels of God cannot fall, because in heaven Gods will is done ( lords prayer). Satan fell from heaven who accused man, because Jesus defeated satan on cross. as so the lamb of God so did. which is rev 12.

I pray my words do not offend, God bless C.F. and all who use it.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

satan as prince of the skies...Can you give me verse #? Please

I know of " prince of this world"..As mans greed is prince. who worships the beast and image, Money.

I pray my words do not offend, God bless C.F. and all who use it.

[hiumble1]

did not answer where did Demons come from?

Lucifer was created by God, and was once a perfect and beautiful cherub or angel (Ezekiel 28:14-15) (http://www.fillthevoid.org/Children/TheBattle/Who-is-the-Devil/WhoisthedevilEzek28.html#anchor89107).
14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
He was created to serve and worship God, but he was created with the ability to have freedom of choice.

Lucifer chose to serve himself instead of God. His heart became filled with pride (http://www.fillthevoid.org/Children/TheBattle/Who-is-the-Devil/Whoisthedevilpride.html)because of his beauty, (Ezekiel 28:17) (http://www.fillthevoid.org/Children/TheBattle/Who-is-the-Devil/WhoisthedevilEzek28.html#anchor94601) and he became rebellious (disobedient) against God. He believed he could be like God the most High (Isaiah 14:13-15). (http://www.fillthevoid.org/Children/TheBattle/Who-is-the-Devil/WhoisLuciferIsaiah14.html#anchor135294) God then cast Lucifer out of heaven because of his sin (Isaiah 14:12; (http://www.fillthevoid.org/Children/TheBattle/Who-is-the-Devil/WhoisLuciferIsaiah14.html#anchor139559) Ezekiel 28:15-19). (http://www.fillthevoid.org/Children/TheBattle/Who-is-the-Devil/WhoisthedevilEzek28.html#anchor100582)


1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


------------------------------------------
1 Timothy 6


1Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
2And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.
3If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
6But godliness with contentment is great gain.
7For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
8And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
9But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
12Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
13I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
14That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
17Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
18That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
19Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
20O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 21Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.



Sorry read the whole thing and then read again... Do not see where in the Text it refers to man as being the Fallen angels fallen from heaven (which, Man never fell from heaven, was never there to begin with, was in the Garden of Eden; which to my understanding was on earth.)

[IamRedeemed]

Not "prince of the skies" but "prince of the power of the air".
Which can be found in:

Ephesians 2:2
"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"


Greetings in the name of Jesus:

satan as prince of the skies...Can you give me verse #? Please

I know of " prince of this world"..As mans greed is prince. who worships the beast and image, Money.

I pray my words do not offend, God bless C.F. and all who use it.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Not "prince of the skies" but "prince of the power of the air".
Which can be found in:

Ephesians 2:2
"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"
Greetings in the name of Jesus:

Dear Iamredeemed:

If I remember correctly: your trying to say That Satan is not a spirit which Just tempts man, And with in man as spirit. and is not this the spirit of disobedience, which epp 2;2 says men have with in them?

But doesn't Epp 2;2 Say exactly what I said was Satan. The spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience. Starts off with " wherein in times past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air. the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience.

Now this is a parable saying the same thing that I am saying. Satan works in the children of disobedience, and is called the prince of the air. which is prince of this world. which is Mans vanity represented by money image, which all worship and all sin comes from the love of money. now how does ephesians 2;2 contradict what it actually says. That the spirit which works in men, is " The spirit of disobedience", That is Satan: now sin is and evil is " disobedience unto God" . Now these things are hidden truths of God. And only those who love Gods words and truths, and submit To God and words and Spirit can discern these things. remember 1 cor 10;13. Only what is common unto man, does God allow you to be tempted with. This means temptation is of common earthly desires. this is called satan. any thing else is deception away from this truth. deception by satan. which is our own desire not to believe it.

I praise all those who seek Gods words and truths, and wrestle with the spirit for God.

God and I love all who discern or not, but that all who claim Jesus is Lord is with us. And we shall not deny them.

I pray my words do not offend, God bless C.F. and all who use it.

[Spiritofprophecy]

greeting in the name of Jesus: :hug:

dear humble;

I would like to thank you for your interest and love of Gods words. And express also my love for Gods words and truths, and all who love Jesus.

Now ezek 28; is like Isaiah 14. and also says it is a man. ezek 28;2 Also ezek 28;1 says he is prince of tyre, which is a economic term as babylon. but yes they are both the same, and as in Both chapter, it says they are men, and both chapters have not Fallen angel of God in them. And yet people add to both, and then deny in both what is written.

I suggest people do not follow what doctrines of men say from middle ages; about what these end times, sealed verses do say. ButPeople should heed the word themselves, which tells them ezek 28;2. that this is a man. And No where does it say fallen angel of God. Says Mountain of God, which is earthly.

Now dear humble: I submit these truths of God are hidden truths, which only the spirit of God can reveal unto men. " it is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honor of kings is to search out a matter."pro 25;2

Some men cannot receive in discernment the hidden things of God. But I do not miss quote scriptures nor do I lie. but I do discern scriptures with the spirit of God to lead and discern for me.

All those who accept and all those who deny, if claiming Jesus as Lord; I shall not deny them.

I thank all men who seek Gods hidden truths, and wrestle with the spirit to know God.

I pray my words do not offend, God bless C.F. and all who use it. :wave:

[Aibrean]

If humans were angels we would not be in need of a saviour.

Man is made differently than angels, and woman is made from man.

[Spiritofprophecy]

If humans were angels we would not be in need of a saviour.

Man is made differently than angels, and woman is made from man.
Greetings in the name of Jesus:

Dear Aibrean:

I appreciate your discernment and interest in Gods truth:
But I would like to add, that Scriptures do Call men who were once Christians, As angels in poetic prophecies or parable prophecies. For it is man which with God in his heart being Christian or Jesus in heart, Called Kingdom of heaven within; Can then poetically be called angels, and also if leave their first estate of Christianity can fall from heaven. Which Only man can fall from heaven. not Angels of God. But men of Earth with God within, having names blotted out of book of life.

I praise God for your spirit, and desire for Gods hidden truths.

I pray my words do not offend, God bless Christian in forum and all who use it.

[epyon]

That was a little incoherent. The truth being. Every single human on earth is a FALLEN ANGEL. But by the grace of God and mercy, we may become angels again and go home to heaven. Amen
Where in the bible does say that we are fallen angel ?

[Spiritofprophecy]

Where in the bible does say that we are fallen angel ?
Greetings in the name of Jesus;

There is reference in Jude and in Job. of angels leaving their first estate. which is a poetic way, to speak of fallen Christians having their names blotted out of the book of life.

Gods heavenly angels to not rebel or fall, Gods will is done in heaven.

I pray my words do not offend
God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.

[Yyharssargyhaell]

Man and Angels are two seperate beings. God created Angels first. They were and are His servants. It's in their nature to serve and worship Him without any will or choice in the matter. Lucifer, His highest angel, did seem to have free-will, but, being an angel, probably had the inborn need to worship God. I think this is why he suffers on a level more than anyone in Hell, if he suffers at all.

At any rate, Man was God's great creation in the sense that we are cast in His image. This means that we resemble Him more than just physically, but mentally and emotionally too. We share His ability to think and dream and choose freely. Why would you give that up to be an angel?

Y.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Man and Angels are two seperate beings. God created Angels first. They were and are His servants. It's in their nature to serve and worship Him without any will or choice in the matter. Lucifer, His highest angel, did seem to have free-will, but, being an angel, probably had the inborn need to worship God. I think this is why he suffers on a level more than anyone in Hell, if he suffers at all.

At any rate, Man was God's great creation in the sense that we are cast in His image. This means that we resemble Him more than just physically, but mentally and emotionally too. We share His ability to think and dream and choose freely. Why would you give that up to be an angel?

Y.
Greetings in the name of Jesus:

What you said and posted is very true.

Angels and men are created differently:

But I submit; that after creation, Jesus coming into the world. That man took on holiness of God, and as written in Psalms and scriptures, are brothers and sisters to Christ. and When of Jesus, Have the Kingdom within them. and " written upon their Hearts."

Now it is also written, that some of these brothers and sisters of Jesus Called Gods. Have their names blotted out of the Book of Life, And these once Heavenly beings " Christians" are also called angels which leave their first estates. Which in both Jude and Job: depict what happens to christians who Have Names blotted out of book of Life. This does not contradict any scripts and holds to all sound doctrines of God. Where all sin and rebellion originates in man.

I pray my words do not offend. God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.

I apologized for my delay in response.

[hiumble1]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

What you said and posted is very true.

Angels and men are created differently:

But I submit; that after creation, Jesus coming into the world. That man took on holiness of God, and as written in Psalms and scriptures, are brothers and sisters to Christ. and When of Jesus, Have the Kingdom within them. and " written upon their Hearts."

Now it is also written, that some of these brothers and sisters of Jesus Called Gods. Have their names blotted out of the Book of Life, And these once Heavenly beings " Christians" are also called angels which leave their first estates. Which in both Jude and Job: depict what happens to christians who Have Names blotted out of book of Life. This does not contradict any scripts and holds to all sound doctrines of God. Where all sin and rebellion originates in man.

I pray my words do not offend. God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.

I apologized for my delay in response.

whaaaaaa..... man took on holiness of God....?
I am not following you at all brother.
What did the 'snake' do...
I would suggest it does contradict... and does not hold up to ALL sound doctrine.

[Spiritofprophecy]

whaaaaaa..... man took on holiness of God....?
I am not following you at all brother.
What did the 'snake' do...
I would suggest it does contradict... and does not hold up to ALL sound doctrine.
Greetings in the name of Jesus:

Be not put off; by me saying we are made the holiness of God: which is our blood covering and sin removal by blood of Jesus by faith.

We of ourselves are nothing, but it is the grace of God which makes us whole and blameless before God, as the perfect lamb of God also is; which we are partakers and covered in his blood; That is those whom are so blessed and saved.

What do you think we are saved from?. it is death eternal and separation from God for sin.

Now these individuals who are so blessed and receive the spirit and communion with God. are in two places in scriptures; Called angels which leave their first estate. Who as written have names blotted out of book of life.

Only man rebels against God, and leaves one estate for another. These are not Gods heavenly angels which never rebel or fall from heaven, for in heaven Gods will is done. But men who were Christians having Gods kingdom within. (having Gods spirit) who then poetically fall from heaven as a man(rebel against God).

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.

[hiumble1]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

Be not put off; by me saying we are made the holiness of God: which is our blood covering and sin removal by blood of Jesus by faith.

We of ourselves are nothing, but it is the grace of God which makes us whole and blameless before God, as the perfect lamb of God also is; which we are partakers and covered in his blood; That is those whom are so blessed and saved.

What do you think we are saved from?. it is death eternal and separation from God for sin.

Now these individuals who are so blessed and receive the spirit and communion with God. are in two places in scriptures; Called angels which leave their first estate. Who as written have names blotted out of book of life.

Only man rebels against God, and leaves one estate for another. These are not Gods heavenly angels which never rebel or fall from heaven, for in heaven Gods will is done. But men who were Christians having Gods kingdom within. (having Gods spirit) who then poetically fall from heaven as a man(rebel against God).

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.

Well.... you didnt say that in original statement.
Correction: there are fallen angels angels that rebelled against God
Scripture: Job, Isa, Ez, Zec, Matt 4, Rev 12....
If scripture does not line up then something is wrong...
To Satan is Man is not right... saying there is no spirit of evil (fallen Angels) that wars with Angels from heaven.... Can not TWIST to make it fit your will Our will must fit Gods will.
Eph 2... Satan is prince of the power of the Air....
Ez 28 in park speaks of the a manly prince but also speaks of something that cannot be the prince (I DO not believe the prince of Tyre was in the garden of Eden.) (Do not believe the Prince of Tyre was a cherub)

Please check Brother and Grasp the truth.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Well.... you didnt say that in original statement.
Correction: there are fallen angels angels that rebelled against God
Scripture: Job, Isa, Ez, Zec, Matt 4, Rev 12....
If scripture does not line up then something is wrong...
To Satan is Man is not right... saying there is no spirit of evil (fallen Angels) that wars with Angels from heaven.... Can not TWIST to make it fit your will Our will must fit Gods will.
Eph 2... Satan is prince of the power of the Air....
Ez 28 in park speaks of the a manly prince but also speaks of something that cannot be the prince (I DO not believe the prince of Tyre was in the garden of Eden.) (Do not believe the Prince of Tyre was a cherub)

Please check Brother and Grasp the truth.
Greetings in the name of Jesus:

Yes sometimes I do fail to be clear and complete in my posts. For this I do apologize and ask forgiveness.

One might be pure of sin, from Gods blood covering but still the stumbling mistake prone person they were before seems to remain. Which I am guilty. I shall endeavor to make fewer omissions and more clarity in my posts.

But I seem to seek to be brief and concise; but my verbal desires compared to the reality of my data transfers, seem to have, much to be desired.

I pray no one is offend by my lack of clarity on issues.
God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

ahh... i know this is just a worldly try.. but the angels of us humans, would we be able to get by.. even make sure that everyone survives? Jesus says if you save the world but loose your soul what good is it? well i dont really know how we would loose our souls... believing in Jesus, you know we go to Heaven, right? more fallowing Jesus we go to Heaven, so the angels of us humans, who are Jesus' Angels, we hope.. would be the hopefully closest fallowing allowed.. its just an advancement in the discipleship, which seemed to disapear, at least how i see... so my side of the debate is that yes we can try to be angels... you know God The Father has servants that are Angels, we could be Jesus The Son's servants... even the hope is this holy light that we fulfill Jesus wishes that He be saved from His Death.. so yea we should start the angels, they truly would save anyone they could... and God wouldnt, i dont think hold them down, like if someone was dieing and we walked by and healed them with Jesus Christ's Name, they would be able to live, and God would still have everything in Heaven ready for when they finally do walk on.. its also a way to become as holy as we can be... each person individually woudl be hoped to have the eternal desire to be Holy always and in all things... so i say yea yea.. please give your light on the choice you make...Jesus was talking about material goods. And if the word "angel" was translated into English, it would read "Messenger of God."

[epyon]

That was a little incoherent. The truth being. Every single human on earth is a FALLEN ANGEL. But by the grace of God and mercy, we may become angels again and go home to heaven. Amen
Where in the bible that say we are fallen angel.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Where in the bible that say we are fallen angel. Numbers 21:5. they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the desert? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!"
6. Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died.
Jude 5. Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6. And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

The transliteral is "messenger" or "messenger of God". In regards to any "Election," "The Elect;" that only applies to human beings.