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Joykins

26th August 2006, 02:52 PM

The notice on this forum says that this is the forum for Baptists and "other similar denominations."

My question is, are similar denominations allowed to debate in this forum. Before the split, this was my congregational forum, and my current church's denomination is Christian and Missionary Alliance. My question is if the Christian and Missionary Alliance meant by the parts I have bolded From the sticked thread above (http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=20318900&postcount=2), and if, as a very "similar denomination', I and other C&MA members would be allowed to fully participate in this forum.

** DEFINITION OF FELLOWSHIP POST:

It is not debate.
Someone who doesn't fall under the Baptist/Anabaptist faith may not discuss reasons for or against a subject being discussed on this forum. This includes questions that essentially are rebuttal or argumentative in nature.

It is not apologetics.
Someone who doesn't fall under the Baptist/Anabaptist faith may not engage in theological discussions that defend their particular point of view on scriptural, theological, doctrinal, (except for Baptists, Anabaptists, Christian Alliance, Quakers) or political issues.

It is not answering questions.
Let's say a thread is started that asks the question about what do you think about <insert subject>? Only Baptists/Anabaptists/Quaker/Missionary Alliance can offer an opinion about that. A member with any other faith icon may not answer that question in this forum. This is not to say they don't have an opinion on that topic, but they may not answer that question here. Neither may non-Baptists/Anabaptists offer rebuttal to opinions posted in response to a question or discussion.

It is not teaching
If a thread is started that asks a general question such as what do you think XYZ means? Only a member that is Baptist/Anabaptist/Quaker/Missionary Alliance (thus identifying him/herself as BA member) may give instruction on the topic. While there may be many very good ideas on the subject from other members (those from any other faith group) they may not give instruction in the Baptist/Anabaptist Forum.

I have asked this question in Questions about CF and not received an official answer, although RED that's ME (a former alpha member) posted in the Questions thread that C&MA and Baptist were extremely similar indeed.

I recently saw a thread that said only Baptists were allowed to debate in this forum and would like clarification on the matter. Because I am finding it confusing.

Thanks very much :)

Joy

mesue

26th August 2006, 03:57 PM

...
My question is, are similar denominations allowed to debate in this forum. Before the split, this was my congregational forum, and my current church's denomination is Christian and Missionary Alliance. My question is if the Christian and Missionary Alliance meant by the parts I have bolded From the sticked thread above (http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=20318900&postcount=2), and if, as a very "similar denomination', I and other C&MA members would be allowed to fully participate in this forum.

...

Joy
But they aren't simular. :sorry: They're more closer to Pentecostal than Baptist.
The greatest challenge the C&MA faced occurred during the first two decades of the twentieth century: an association with the revival of Pentecostalism (http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/penta.html)beginning in 1906 (Bedford:149). The C&MA and the Pentecostals believed in a similar doctrine, "baptism of Holy Spirit"(Bedford:156). Therefore, many Pentecostal pastors and missionaries received their training at Simpson's Missionary Training Institute (Burgess:163). Some pioneers of the Pentecostal revivalism were influenced by Simpson and the C&MA (Burgess:163). Among them were Alice Belle Garrigus, founder of the Pentecostal Assembly of New Foundland; D. Wesley Myland, founder of the Gibeah Bible School outside of Indianapolis (Burgess:163); William I. Evans, Dean of Bethel Bible Training School in Newark, NJ; Frank M. Boyd, Dean of the Central Bible Institute in Springfield, MO; and R.E. Sternall, the first pastor of the Pentecostal Assembly in Kitchener, Ontario (Burgess: 164-5). The primary means of training Pentecostal leaders became Simpson's three-year Bible Institute (Burgess:164).

From: http://religiousmovements.lib.virgin...e.html#history (http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/chmissionalliance.html#history)

Joykins

26th August 2006, 04:36 PM

To continue that quote which was describing the Alliance in 1906

A significant point of difference between C&MA and Pentecostal beliefs lies in the Pentecostal belief that speaking in tongues is a sign of the Holy Spirit inside of a person (Bedford:156). The C&MA became severely divided over Pentecostalism (Burgess:166). Numerous members left the C&MA for Pentecostalism, while others took on the use of tongues and opted to remain C&MA members. Simpson supported the "orderly expression of supernatural gifts" such as speaking in tongues (Burgess:166). However, in order to protect the C&MA in the event of further division, Simpson put all property in the name of the C&MA. In the event of separation, all property would revert to C&MA possession (Burgess:166).
The tension between Pentecostalism and the C&MA caused the C&MA to reorganize by 1912, shifting more authority to Council and becoming more ecclesiastical (Bedford:159). By 1930, most local branches functioned as churches, but they still refused to label themselves as such (Bedford:185). Following Simpson's death, the C&MA distanced itself from Pentecostalism, rejecting the premise that speaking in tongues indicates possession by the Holy Spirit and focusing on a deeper Christian life (Burgess:166). However, their momentum for growth was now stunted (Bedford:186).

Current C&MA churches are far more like Baptist than Pentecostal. We would be fish out of water in the Spirit-Filled forum.

Here is our doctrinal statement (http://www.cmalliance.org/whoweare/doctrine.jsp)

1. There is one God,(1) who is infinitely perfect,(2) existing eternally in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.(3) ([1] Deuteronomy 6:4, [2] Matthew 5:48, [3] Matthew 28:19)
http://www.cmalliance.org/images/shim.gif
2. Jesus Christ is the true God and the true man.(4) He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary.(5) He died upon the cross, the Just for the unjust,(6) as a substitutionary sacrifice,(7) and all who believe in Him are justified on the ground of His shed blood.(8) He arose from the dead according to the Scriptures.(9) He is now at the right hand of Majesty on high as our great High Priest.(10) He will come again to establish His kingdom, righteousness and peace.(11) ([4] Philippians 2:6–11, [5] Luke 1:34–38, [6] I Peter 3:18, [7] Hebrews 2:9, [8] Romans 5:9, [9] Acts 2:23–24, [10] Hebrews 8:1, [11] Matthew 26:64)
http://www.cmalliance.org/images/shim.gif
3. The Holy Spirit is a divine person,(12) sent to dwell, guide, teach, empower the believer,(13) and convince the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment.(14) ([12] John 14:15–18, [13] John 16:13, Acts 1:8, [14] John 16:7–11)
http://www.cmalliance.org/images/shim.gif
4. The Old and New Testaments, inerrant as originally given, were verbally inspired by God and are a complete revelation of His will for the salvation of men. They constitute the divine and only rule of Christian faith and practice.(15) ([15] 2 Peter 1:20–21, 2 Timothy 3:15–16)
http://www.cmalliance.org/images/shim.gif
5. Man was originally created in the image and likeness of God:(16) he fell through disobedience, incurring thereby both physical and spiritual death. All men are born with a sinful nature,(17) are separated from the life of God, and can be saved only through the atoning work of the Lord Jesus Christ.(18) The portion of the unrepentant and unbelieving is existence forever in conscious torment;(19) and that of the believer, in everlasting joy and bliss.(20) ([16] Genesis 1:27, [17] Romans 3:23, [18] 1 Corinthians15:20–23, [19] Revelation 21:8, [20] Revelation 21:1–4)
http://www.cmalliance.org/images/shim.gif
6. Salvation has been provided through Jesus Christ for all men; and those who repent and believe in Him are born again of the Holy Spirit, receive the gift of eternal life, and become the children of God.(21) ([21] Titus 3:4–7)
http://www.cmalliance.org/images/shim.gif
7. It is the will of God that each believer should be filled with the Holy Spirit and be sanctified wholly,(22) being separated from sin and the world and fully dedicated to the will of God, thereby receiving power for holy living and effective service.(23) This is both a crisis and a progressive experience wrought in the life of the believer subsequent to conversion.24 ([22] 1 Thessalonians 5:23, [23] Acts 1:8, [24] Romans 6:1–14)
http://www.cmalliance.org/images/shim.gif
8. Provision is made in the redemptive work of the Lord Jesus Christ for the healing of the mortal body.(25) Prayer for the sick and anointing with oil are taught in the Scriptures and are privileges for the Church in this present age.(26) ([25] Matthew 8:16–17, [26] James 5:13–16)
http://www.cmalliance.org/images/shim.gif
9. The Church consists of all those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, are redeemed through His blood, and are born again of the Holy Spirit. Christ is the Head of the Body, the Church, (27) which has been commissioned by Him to go into all the world as a witness, preaching the gospel to all nations.(28) The local church is a body of believers in Christ who are joined together for the worship of God, for edification through the Word of God, for prayer, fellowship, the proclamation of the gospel, and observance of the ordinances of Baptism and the Lord's Supper.(29) ([27] Ephesians 1:22–23, [28] Matthew 28:19–20, [29] Acts 2:41–47)
http://www.cmalliance.org/images/shim.gif
10. There shall be a bodily resurrection of the just and of the unjust; for the former, a resurrection unto life;(30) for the latter, a resurrection unto judgment.(31) ([30] 1 Corinthians 15:20–23, [31] John 5:28–29)
http://www.cmalliance.org/images/shim.gif
11. The second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is imminent(32) and will be personal, visible, and premillennial.(33) This is the believer's blessed hope and is a vital truth which is an incentive to holy living and faithful service.(34) ([32] Hebrews 10:37, [33] Luke 21:27, [34] Titus 2:11–14)
http://www.cmalliance.org/images/shim.gif

Here is our position paper on baptism (http://www.cmalliance.org/whoweare/distinctives/baptism.doc)

I am not also asking for myself, there are a few others of us on CF who are misfits without a home congregatioanl forum.

Joykins

26th August 2006, 04:38 PM

I would also like clarification on whether the "Christian Alliance" or "Missionary Alliance" in the sticky at the top of this forum applies to C&MA, and if it does, whether this sticky still applies.

I know what church I attend and trust me it is not at all like Pentecostal.

I won't argue if you decide that C&MA is not similar enough to debate in here, but that decision should be based ont he denomination as it is now, not what it was like 100 years ago.

mesue

26th August 2006, 04:46 PM

...
Current C&MA churches are far more like Baptist than Pentecostal. We would be fish out of water in the Spirit-Filled forum.
...
There are Non-Denoms that are far more like Baptist than Non-Denominational, and yet they're still Non-Denominational. There are Reformed Churches that are far more like Baptist, yet they're still Reformed.
I'll seek counsel from those that know better. Then we'll have something more to go on.

Joykins

26th August 2006, 05:05 PM

mesue

26th August 2006, 05:35 PM

Thanks for looking into this, mesue :)

It would probably also be useful for CF members to know what are considered "similar denominations" to Baptist that can debate in this forum, even if the decision would turn out that the C&MA is not one of them.

I PM'd a friend of mine who is well versed in the different Denominations. I'll do some research of my own and then prpose the question to the other ET staff members as well as start a thread for the Baptists here.
The problem arises when the different sects disagree. There really is no one true Baptist. All that Baptists really have in common is the word "Baptist" in their church name. So, needless to say, this may take a while. :sorry:

mesue

26th August 2006, 06:05 PM

FWIW Here are the 2 Statements of Faith

The Alliance Doctrinal Statement

1. There is one God,(1) who is infinitely perfect,(2) existing eternally in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.(3) ([1] Deuteronomy 6:4, [2] Matthew 5:48, [3] Matthew 28:19)

2. Jesus Christ is the true God and the true man.(4) He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary.(5) He died upon the cross, the Just for the unjust,(6) as a substitutionary sacrifice,(7) and all who believe in Him are justified on the ground of His shed blood.(8) He arose from the dead according to the Scriptures.(9) He is now at the right hand of Majesty on high as our great High Priest.(10) He will come again to establish His kingdom, righteousness and peace.(11) ([4] Philippians 2:6–11, [5] Luke 1:34–38, [6] I Peter 3:18, [7] Hebrews 2:9, [8] Romans 5:9, [9] Acts 2:23–24, [10] Hebrews 8:1, [11] Matthew 26:64)

3. The Holy Spirit is a divine person,(12) sent to dwell, guide, teach, empower the believer,(13) and convince the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment.(14) ([12] John 14:15–18, [13] John 16:13, Acts 1:8, [14] John 16:7–11)

4. The Old and New Testaments, inerrant as originally given, were verbally inspired by God and are a complete revelation of His will for the salvation of men. They constitute the divine and only rule of Christian faith and practice.(15) ([15] 2 Peter 1:20–21, 2 Timothy 3:15–16)

5. Man was originally created in the image and likeness of God: (16) he fell through disobedience, incurring thereby both physical and spiritual death. All men are born with a sinful nature,(17) are separated from the life of God, and can be saved only through the atoning work of the Lord Jesus Christ.(18) The portion of the unrepentant and unbelieving is existence forever in conscious torment;(19) and that of the believer, in everlasting joy and bliss.(20) ([16] Genesis 1:27, [17] Romans 3:23, [18] 1 Corinthians15:20–23, [19] Revelation 21:8, [20] Revelation 21:1–4)

6. Salvation has been provided through Jesus Christ for all men; and those who repent and believe in Him are born again of the Holy Spirit, receive the gift of eternal life, and become the children of God.(21) ([21] Titus 3:4–7)

7. It is the will of God that each believer should be filled with the Holy Spirit and be sanctified wholly,(22) being separated from sin and the world and fully dedicated to the will of God, thereby receiving power for holy living and effective service.(23) This is both a crisis and a progressive experience wrought in the life of the believer subsequent to conversion.24 ([22] 1 Thessalonians 5:23, [23] Acts 1:8, [24] Romans 6:1–14)

8. Provision is made in the redemptive work of the Lord Jesus Christ for the healing of the mortal body.(25) Prayer for the sick and anointing with oil are taught in the Scriptures and are privileges for the Church in this present age.(26) ([25] Matthew 8:16–17, [26] James 5:13–16)

9. The Church consists of all those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, are redeemed through His blood, and are born again of the Holy Spirit. Christ is the Head of the Body, the Church, (27) which has been commissioned by Him to go into all the world as a witness, preaching the gospel to all nations.(28) The local church is a body of believers in Christ who are joined together for the worship of God, for edification through the Word of God, for prayer, fellowship, the proclamation of the gospel, and observance of the ordinances of Baptism and the Lord's Supper.(29) ([27] Ephesians 1:22–23, [28] Matthew 28:19–20, [29] Acts 2:41–47)

10. There shall be a bodily resurrection of the just and of the unjust; for the former, a resurrection unto life;(30) for the latter, a resurrection unto judgment.(31) ([30] 1 Corinthians 15:20–23, [31] John 5:28–29)

11. The second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is imminent(32) and will be personal, visible, and premillennial.(33) This is the believer's blessed hope and is a vital truth which is an incentive to holy living and faithful service.(34) ([32] Hebrews 10:37, [33] Luke 21:27, [34] Titus 2:11–14)

And My Church

Articles of Faith

A Bible Baptist is one who believes in a supernatural Bible, which tells of a supernatural Christ, Who had a supernatural birth, Who spoke supernatural words, Who performed supernatural miracles, Who lived a supernatural life, Who died a supernatural death, Who rose in supernatural splendor, Who intercedes as a supernatural Priest, and Who will one day return in supernatural glory to establish a supernatural Kingdom on the earth.

I. Of The Scriptures
We believe that the Holy Bible was written by men supernaturally inspired; that it is truth without any admixture of error for its matter; and therefore is, and shall remain to the end of the age, the only complete and final revelation of the will of God to man, the true center of Christian union, and the supreme standard by which all human conduct, creeds, and opinions should be tried.
1. By the holy Bible we mean that collection of sixty-six books, from Genesis to Revelation, which as originally written does not only contain and convey the Word of God, but IS the very Word of God. We believe the holy Bible, as it appears in the English language, is the Authorized 1611 King James Bible. We believe this Bible is the product of God's watchful hand of preservation, is perfect, and needs no correction.
2. By inspiration we mean that the books of the Bible were spoken first by holy men of old, as they were moved by the Holy Spirit according to 2 Peter 1:21, in such a definite way that their writings were supernaturally and verbally inspired and free from error, as no other writings have ever been or will ever be inspired.
Psalms 12:6,7; 19:7-11; 119:89,105,130,160; Proverbs 30:5-6; Isaiah 8:20; Matthew 24:35; Luke 16:31; 24:25-27,44-45; John 5:39,45-47; 12:48; 17:17; Acts 1:16; 28:25; Romans 3:4; 15:4; Ephesians 6:17; 2 Timothy 3:16-17; 1 Peter 1:23; 2 Peter 1:19-21; Revelation 22:19.

II. Of the True God
We believe that there is one, and only one, living and true God, an infinite, intelligent Spirit, the Maker and Supreme Ruler of heaven and earth, inexpressibly glorious in holiness, and worthy of all possible honor, confidence, and love; that in the unity of the Godhead there are three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, equal in every divine perfection and executing distinct but harmonious offices in the great work of redemption.
Genesis 17:1; Exodus 15:11; 20:2-3; Psalms 83:18; 90:2; 147:5; Jeremiah 10:10; Matthew 28:19; Mark 12:30; John 4:24; 10:30; 15:26; 17:5; Acts 5:3-4; Romans 11:33; Ephesians 2:18; 4:6; Philippians 2:5-6; 1 Corinthians 2:10-11; 8:6; 12:4-6; 2 Corinthians 13:14; 1 Timothy 1:17; 1 John 5:7; Revelation 4:11.

III. Of the Holy Spirit
We believe that the Holy Spirit is a divine person, equal with God the Father and God the Son, and of the same nature; that He was active in the creation; that in His relation to the unbelieving world He restrains Satan until God's purpose is fulfilled; that He convicts of sin, of judgment, and of righteousness; that He bears witness to the truth of the Gospel in preaching and testimony; that He is the agent in the New Birth; that He seals, endues, guides, teaches, witnesses, sanctifies, and helps the believer.
Genesis 1:1-3; Matthew 3:11; 28:19; Mark 1:8; Luke 1:35; 3:16; 24:29; John 1:33; 3:5-6; 14:16-17,26; 15:26-27; 16:8-11,13; Acts 5:30-32; 11:16; Romans 8:14,16,26-27; Ephesians 1:13-14; 2 Thessalonians 2:7,13; Hebrews 9:14; 1 Peter 1:2.

IV. Of the Devil, or Satan
We believe that Satan was once holy and enjoyed heavenly honors, but through pride and ambition to be above the Almighty, fell and drew after him a host of angels; that he is now the malignant prince of the power of the air, and the unholy god of this world. We hold him to be man's great tempter, the enemy of God and His Christ, the accuser of the saints, the author of all false religions, the chief power behind the present apostasy; the lord of the Antichrist, and the author of all the powers of darkness ó destined, however, for final defeat at the hand of God's own Son, and for the judgment of eternal justice in Hell, a place prepared for him and his angels.
Isaiah 14:12; Ezekiel 28:14-17; Matthew 4:1-3; 13:25; 25:41; Mark 13:21-33; Luke 22:3-4; John 14:30; 2 Corinthians 11:13-15; Ephesians 2:2; 1 Thessalonians 3:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:8-11; 1 Peter 5:8; 2 Peter 2:4; 1 John 2:22; 3:8; 4:3; 2 John 7; Jude 6; Revelation 2:2; 12:7-10; 13:13-14; 19:11,16,20; 20:1-3,10.

V. Of Creation
We believe in the Genesis account of creation, and that it is to be accepted literally, not allegorically or figuratively; that man was created directly in God's own image and after His own likeness; that man's creation was not a matter of evolution or evolutionary change of species, or development through interminable periods of time from lower to higher forms; that all animal and vegetable life was created directly, and God's established law was that they should bring forth only after their own kind.
Genesis 1:1,24,26-27; 2:21-23; Exodus 20:11; Nehemiah 9:6; Jeremiah 10:12; John 1:3; Acts 4:24; 17:23-26; Romans 1:20; Colossians 1:16-17; Hebrews 11:3; Revelation 10:6.

VI. Of the Fall of Man
We believe that man was created in innocence under the law of his Maker, but by voluntary transgression fell from his sinless and happy state, in consequence of which all mankind are now sinners, not by constraint but of choice, and are therefore under just condemnation without defense or excuse.
Genesis 3:1-6; Ezekiel 18:19-20; Romans 1:18,20,28,32; 3:10-19; 5:12,19; Galatians 3:22; Ephesians 2:1,3.

VII. Of the Virgin Birth
We believe that Jesus Christ was begotten of the Holy Ghost in a miraculous manner, born of Mary, a virgin, as no other man was ever born or can ever be born of a woman, and that He is both the Son of God and God the Son. We adhere to the Deity of Jesus Christ, that He was and is God the Creator manifest in the flesh.
Genesis 3:5; Psalms 2:7; Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:18-25; Mark 1:1; Luke 1:35;
John 1:1, 14; 1 Corinthians 15:47; Galatians 4:4; 1Timothy 3:16; 1 John 5:20.

VIII. Of the Atonement for Sin
We believe that the salvation of sinners is wholly of grace through the mediatorial offices of the Son of God, Who, by appointment of the Father, freely took upon Him our nature, yet without sin honored the divine law by His personal obedience by His death, and by the shedding of His blood made a full and vicarious atonement for our sins; that His atonement consisted not in setting us an example by His death as a martyr, but was the voluntary substitution of Himself in the sinner's place, the just dying for the unjust, The Lord Jesus Christ, bearing our sins in His own body on the tree; that, having risen from the dead, He is now enthroned in heaven and has united in His wonderful Person the most tender sympathies with divine perfection; that He is in every way qualified to be a suitable, compassionate, and all-sufficient Saviour.
Isaiah 53:4-7,11-12; Matthew 18:11; John 3:16; 10:18; Acts 15:11; Romans 3:24-25; 1 Corinthians 15:3,20; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Galatians 1:4; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 2:7-8; 1 Peter 2:24; 3:18; Hebrews 2:14; 7:25; 9:12-15; 12:2; 1 John 2:2; 4:10.

IX. Of Grace in the New Creature in Jesus Christ
We believe that in order to be saved, sinners must be born again; that the new birth results in a new creature in Christ Jesus; that it is instantaneous and not a process; that in the new birth, the one dead in trespasses and in sins is made a partaker of the divine nature and receives eternal life, the free gift of God; that the new birth is brought about in a manner beyond our comprehension, not by culture, not by character, nor by the will of man, but solely by the power of the Holy Spirit in connection with divine truth, so as to secure our voluntary obedience to the Gospel; that its proper evidence appears in the holy fruits of repentance and faith and newness of life.
Luke 5:27; John 1:12-13; 3:3,6-7; Acts 2:41; Romans 6:23; 2 Corinthians 5:17,19; Galatians 5:22; Ephesians 2:1; 5:9; Colossians 2:13; 2 Peter 1:4; 1 John 5:1.

X. Of the Freeness of Salvation
We believe in God's electing grace; that the blessings of salvation are made free to all by the Gospel; that it is the immediate duty of all to accept them by a cordial, penitent, and obedient faith; that nothing prevents the salvation of the greatest sinner on earth but his own inherent depravity and voluntary rejection of the Gospel, which rejection involves him in an aggravated condemnation.
Isaiah 55:1,6-7; Matthew 11:28; John 3:15-16,18, 36; 5:40; 6:37; Romans 8:29-30; 10:13; 1 Corinthian 15:10; Ephesians 2:4; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Timothy 1:15; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:2; Revelation 22:17.

XI. Of Justification
We believe that the great Gospel blessing which Christ secures to such as believers in Him is justification; that justification includes the pardon of sin and the gift of eternal life on principles of righteousness; that it is bestowed not in consideration of any works of righteousness which we have done, but solely through faith in the Redeemer's blood. His righteousness is imputed unto us.
Isaiah 53:11; Habakkuk 2:4; Zechariah 13:1; Acts 13:39; Romans 1:17; 4:1-8; 5:1,9; Galatians 3:11; Titus 3:5-7; Hebrews 10:38.

XII. Of Repentance and Faith
We believe that repentance and faith are solemn obligations and inseparable graces, wrought in our souls by the quickening Spirit of God, thereby being deeply convicted of our guilt, danger, and helplessness, and the way of salvation by Christ, we turn to God with unfeigned condition, confession, and supplication for mercy, at the same time heartily receiving the Lord Jesus Christ and openly confessing Him as our only and all-sufficient Saviour.
Isaiah 55:6-7; Psalms 51:1-4:7; Mark 1:15; Luke 12:8; 13:3; 18:13; Acts 17:30-31;20:21; Romans 2:4;10:9-11,13; 2 Corinthians 7:9-11

XIII. Of the Church
We believe that a Baptist Church is a congregation of baptized believers associated by a covenant of faith and fellowship of the Gospel; said church being understood to be the citadel and propagator of the divine and eternal grace and the pillar and ground of the truth; observing the ordinances of Christ; governed by His laws; exercising the gifts, rights, and privileges given to them by His Word; that its officers of ordination are pastors or elders whose qualifications, claims, and duties are clearly defined in the Scriptures; we believe the true mission of the church is found in the Great Commission: first, to make individual disciples; second, to build up the church; third, to reach and instruct as He has commanded. We do not believe in the reversal of this order. We hold that the local church has the absolute right of self-government, free from the interference of any hierarchy of individuals or organizations; that the one and only superintendent is Christ through the Holy Spirit; that it is scriptural for true churches to cooperate with each other in contending for the faith and for the furtherance of the Gospel; that every church is the sole and only judge of the measure and method of its cooperation; that on all matters of membership, of policy, of government, of discipline, and of benevolence the will of the local church is final.
Matthew 28:19-20; Acts 2:41-42; 6:5-6; 14:23; 15:22-23; 20:17-28; 1 Corinthians 5:11-13; 6:1-3; 11:2; 12:4,8-11; 16:1-2; 2 Corinthians 8:23-24; Ephesians 1:22-23; 4:11; 5:23-24; Colossians 1:18; 1 Timothy 3:1-15; 1 Peter 5:1-4; Jude 3,4

XIV. Of Baptism and the Lord's Supper
We believe that Christian baptism is the immersion in water of a believer, done in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Baptism is performed under the authority of the local church to show solemn and beautiful emblem our faith in the crucified, buried, and risen Saviour. Baptism pictures our death to sin and resurrection to a new life. It is a prerequisite to the privileges of church membership and participation in the Lord's Supper.
The Lord's Supper commemorates the death of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, the bread representing His body that was broken for us, and the fruit of the vine representing His blood that was shed for us. Before partaking of these elements each person should examine himself, “For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.”
Matthew 3:6,16; 28:1,9-20,19; Acts 2:41-42; 8:36-39; 10:47; 16:15,30-33; Romans 6:3-5; 1 Corinthians 11:23-34; Colossians 2:12.

XV. Of Eternal Security

We believe that the new birth is a onetime event even as physical birth is a onetime event. Eternal life is the result of being born into an eternal family. The words “eternal,” “everlasting,” and “forever” are used to describe our redemption, our life with God, and how long the Holy Spirit abides with us. Because our salvation is entirely God's work, and our keeping is entirely God's work, we can have full confidence that nothing “. . .shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
Psalms 121:3; Matthew 13:19-23; John 1:12; 3:7; 8:31-32; 10:27-29; 14:16; Acts 15:11; Romans 4:4-5; 8:28-29, 35,39; Ephesians 2:8-9; Philippians 1:6; Colossians 1:21-23; 2 Timothy 1:12; Hebrews 1:14; 9:12; 1 Peter 1:3-5; 1 John 2:19.

XVI. Of the Righteous and the Wicked
We believe that there is a radical and essential difference between the righteous and the wicked; that such only as through faith are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and are sanctified by the Spirit of our God, are truly righteous in His esteem, while all those who continue in impenitence and unbelief are in His sight wicked and under the curse; that this distinction holds among men both in life and after death, the everlasting felicity of the saved and the everlasting conscious suffering of the lost, in Hell fire.
Proverbs 11:31; 14:32; Malachi 3:18; Matthew 7:13-14; 25:34; Mark 9:43-46; Luke 9:26; 16:19-31; John 8:21; 12:25; Acts 10:34-35; Romans 1:17; 6:16-18,23; 7:6; 1 Corinthians 15:22; Galatians 3:10; 1 Peter 1:18; 1 John 2:7,29; 5:19; Revelation 20:14, 15.

XVII. Of Civil Government
We believe that civil government is of divine appointment, for the interests and good order of human society; that magistrates are to be prayed for, conscientiously honored and obeyed, with the exception only of things opposed to the will of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is the only Lord of the conscience and the coming Prince of the kings of the earth.
Exodus 18:21-22; 2 Samuel 23:3; Psalms 72:11; Daniel 3:17-18; Matthew 10:28; 22:21; 23:10; Acts 4:19-20; 23:5; Romans 13:7; Philippians 2:10-11; Titus 3:1; 1 Peter 2:17.

XVIII. Of the Resurrection and Return of Christ and Related Events
We believe in and accept the sacred Scriptures relating these subjects at their face and full value. Of the resurrection, we believe that Christ rose bodily the third day according to the Scriptures; that He alone is our merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God; “that this same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven” (bodily, personally, and visibly) that the dead in Christ shall rise first; that the living saints shall all be “changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump,” that the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of His father David; that Christ shall reign a thousand years in righteousness until He hath put all enemies under His feet. We believe in a pre-Tribulation Rapture; that following the translation of the saints will be a seven year period of tribulation and wrath on earth. At the end of the seven years, Christ will return visibly and literally with His saints to setup His one thousand year reign on earth.
Isaiah 11:4-5; Psalms 72:8; Matthew 24:27,42; 28:6-7; Mark 16:6,19; Luke 1:32; 24:2,4-6,39,51; John 20:27; Acts 1:9-11; 1 Corinthians 15:4,25,42-44,51-53; Philippians 4:20-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 1 Timothy 2:5; Hebrews 2:17; 5:9-10; 8:1,6; 9:28; 12:2; 1 John 2:1; Revelation 3:21; 20:1-4,6.

XIX. Of Missions
The command to preach the Gospel to the world is clear and unmistakable, and this commission was given to the church, the body of Christ.
Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:15; John 20:21; Acts 1:8; Romans 10:13-15.

XX. Of the Grace of Giving
We believe in scriptural giving.
2 Corinthians 8:7 “Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.”
Scriptural giving means bringing our tithes and offerings to the local church in a systematic and faithful manner according to what God has provided.
Proverbs 3:9; Matthew 28:19-20; 1 Corinthians 15:58; 16:2; 2 Corinthians 8:8,11-12; 9:7,13; Philippians 4:19.
The amount of our scriptural giving is a gauge of our love for God, a measure of our faith in His Word, and a revealer of our commitment to fulfilling the “Great Commission.”
Matthew 6:21 “For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”
Scriptural giving is done cheerfully and glorifies and honors God and provides an avenue for God to bless us now and in the future; lack of scriptural giving results in chastisement and spiritual poverty.
2 Corinthians 9:6, “But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.”
Proverbs 3:9-10; 11:25; Haggai 1:6; Malachi 3:8-10; Matthew 6:31-33; Luke 6:38; Galatians 6:7; Philippians 4:19

rnmomof7

26th August 2006, 07:13 PM

I will have to spend some time looking into this, I know my Presbyterian Church has had Missionary Alliance representatives come to raise funds.

But i think we can agree they are not Calvinists :)

What stands out to me is this phrase

". It is the will of God that each believer should be filled with the Holy Spirit and be sanctified wholly,(22) being separated from sin and the world and fully dedicated to the will of God, thereby receiving power for holy living and effective service.(23) This is both a crisis and a progressive experience wrought in the life of the believer subsequent to conversion.24 ([22] 1 Thessalonians 5:23, [23] Acts 1:8, [24] Romans 6:1–14) "

This is Wesleyan/ holiness language not Baptist or Presbyterian

Let me see what I can find

rnmomof7

26th August 2006, 07:25 PM

I am glad I did this search, The missionary Alliance is an interesting denomination.

As I thought when reading that phrase the history is Wesleyan not Baptist. The doctrine of "complete sanctification " or "wholly Sanctified "is Wesley's "strangely warned heart "

" An oversimplified but highly functional description is given in the preamble to the Constitution of the Missionary Church (p.3):

. . . the Missionary Church will be better understood by the reader who recognizes that a singular commitment of our early leaders was to the position that the Scriptures were to be the primary source of doctrine and life. In addition to this commitment to be a biblical church, we recognize the contribution of John Wesley's emphasis on “the warmed heart”; A.B. Simpson's fourfold emphasis on Jesus Christ as Savior, Sanctifier, Healer and Coming King; the Anabaptist concepts of community and brotherhood; the evangelical emphases of the lost estate of mankind and redemption through Jesus Christ. The Missionary Church, then, is a unique blend of the thought and life of a people who have sought to build their church according to Scriptures and who have appreciated their historical roots.
www.mcusa.org/Merging&Diverging1.rtf

Very interesting foundation for a blended denomination .

So no it is not baptist ( that seems to be about the only denomination not in its history )

"

Joykins

26th August 2006, 09:55 PM

One way it was explained to me was that the Christian and Missionary Alliance was originally an alliance of several kinds of denominational churches that banded together for missionary purposes--thus the name-- and therefore our doctrinal statement is a sort of bottom line of what these denominations had in common, and there are a lot of issues that the C&MA has no position on.

I know another one of us is here, I think it is zoziw, and he posts in the Methodist/Nazarene forum, but he can't debate there.

I just want us to have a home where we can debate. I'd been debating here because I've gone to Baptists churches and a very Baptist-like Anabaptist church in the past, before C&MA, and because I thought the C&MA was the denomination referred to in the stickied post at the top of this forum, but since the split I'm not sure where I belong....

Edited to Add: I don't think the C&MA is the same thing as the Missionary Church.

aReformedPatriot

27th August 2006, 03:08 AM

I'm enjoying the baptist only theme. :) If you want to debate here, become Baptist.

Joykins

27th August 2006, 08:53 AM

I'm enjoying the baptist only theme. :) If you want to debate here, become Baptist.

If that is the case, this forum needs to get that message across consistently:

1. By taking "and similar denominations" out of the title of the form, most importantly.

2. By revising the stickied threads that give guidance to the forum, to make this clear. Right now I believe my denomination to be listed, and my denomination isn't Anabaptist (which now has its own forum), so I don't understand what the impacts of the split are supposed to be on this denomination and other similar ones. :)

3. By attempting to provide "similar denominations" with a new home if you are kicking us out.

RED that's ME

27th August 2006, 01:12 PM

I haven't researched the history of Christian Mission Alliance but my grandparents belong to one and I have visited it many times and haven't seen anything different there than what the Baptist teaches/believes.
I'm sure just like Baptists, CMA groups can hold different beliefs/doctrines within themselves.
CF staff should decide as a whole, where they fit in with input from Christian Missionary Alliance members IMO. :)
As a previous staff member here I knew there wasn't a forum for CMA and I wanted them to have a home to hang their hat up and I did discuss with other Baptist staff members at the time about letting CMA's join us. :)

aReformedPatriot

27th August 2006, 01:13 PM

If that is the case, this forum needs to get that message across consistently:

I agree and thought this was conveyed by the "Baptist" title of the forum. The Sticky and it's contents predated the seperation of B/A which I just assumed were removed. But obviously they were not.

To reiterate the arguments that brought the seperation, I am a proponent of a forum for those who adhere to the title of "Baptist" to have a place wherein they can discuss and debate among themselves all manners of doctrine. If we were to include "similar" denominations that are not baptist, confusion sets in (like now) and the change basically ought to have never occured in the first place because we are brought back to square one.

Joykins

27th August 2006, 03:13 PM

I agree and thought this was conveyed by the "Baptist" title of the forum. The Sticky and it's contents predated the seperation of B/A which I just assumed were removed. But obviously they were not.

Title from the Congregation category page (bold mine):

http://www.christianforums.com/clear.gifBaptists (http://www.christianforums.com/f364-baptists.html) (14 Viewing)
The forum for Baptist and other similar denominations.

To reiterate the arguments that brought the seperation, I am a proponent of a forum for those who adhere to the title of "Baptist" to have a place wherein they can discuss and debate among themselves all manners of doctrine. If we were to include "similar" denominations that are not baptist, confusion sets in (like now) and the change basically ought to have never occured in the first place because we are brought back to square one.

The split occured very quickly without any discussion of its ramifications on the people here who are neither Baptist or Anabaptist (although I could join a Baptist church today in good conscience without any changing of my beliefs, I like the church I currently go to and see no reason to change it).

Given that the split has occured, there is still no other Congregational forum designated for "other similar denominations" including a denomination that was, as RED thats' ME has explained, previously meant to have this forum as its congregational forum.

I am requesting clarification for this. If a mod wants to move this thread to Questions about CF as being more appropriate there, that's fine with me.

Joykins

29th August 2006, 09:20 PM

Where I work, we have this phrase, silence = assent. Is there some way to get an official answer on this?

JacobHall86

29th August 2006, 09:23 PM

I'm enjoying the baptist only theme. :) If you want to debate here, become Baptist.

i Lawled when I read that.

Atlantians

30th August 2006, 12:44 AM

Personally I associate myself as:
Fundementalist, Pentacostal, Baptis, Charismatic, and non-denominational.
In no particular order.

JacobHall86

30th August 2006, 12:46 AM

Personally I associate myself as:
Fundementalist, Pentacostal, Baptis, Charismatic, and non-denominational.
In no particular order.

How do you manage that?

mesue

30th August 2006, 11:00 AM

Where I work, we have this phrase, silence = assent. Is there some way to get an official answer on this?
Not yet,
Good thing this isn't work ;)

mesue

30th August 2006, 11:19 AM

For What It's Worth:
I feel the "same such church" clause was more for the Anabaptist than Baptist as the Anabaptist have different names to them like Quaker, Brethren, Mennonite, etc.
I feel that if the name of your church has the word "Baptist" in it, then you attend a Baptist church and therefore can fellowship here.
The reason being is there are plenty of "Baptist-like" churches out there. Most of them classified under a Non-Denominational Church, but remain Non-Baptist. There are Presbyterian churches that are just like a Baptist church, but they are Presbyterian none the less.
Even though the Baptist Church has a variety of flavors the one thing we all have in common is the word "Baptist" in the name of the church. There's the Southern Baptist Church, The American Baptist Church, The Independent Baptist Churches, all different but all having the word "Baptist" in their name. There's no mistaking that when you walk into that church and join, you will be called a Baptist.
So, the real questions are: Do you attend a Baptist church and call yourself a Baptist? Are you willing to change your icon?
(Disclaimer:
The above post is MMHO and not necessarily the views of CF :D )

Joykins

30th August 2006, 03:59 PM

Mesue, I hope I am still welcome to fellowship here even if I am restricted from debate ;)

JPPT1974

30th August 2006, 08:54 PM

I try not to debate as sometimes it
Can really get me into some hot water
As it has done in the past!

Flynmonkie

30th August 2006, 09:39 PM

So, the real questions are: Do you attend a Baptist church and call yourself a Baptist? Are you willing to change your icon?
(Disclaimer:
The above post is MMHO and not necessarily the views of CF :D )

I attend and am a member of a Baptist church SBC to be exact, however I don't carry a Baptist Icon, because I prefer to be referred to as a Christian. I am a Christian in a Baptist church, nothing more, nothing less. I don't think one should be forced to change their "icon" as long as they have some indicator of a church they belong. In fact, I thought that was already in practice. As long as the mods are aware, then you may carry a Christian icon.

Has this changed again?

Joy, you know my opinion on this, I think it to be very disrespectful the way things changed so abruptly without discussion amongst members, this is one of the many ramifications that were never discussed. I believe you have been around here long before me, so I would not see why you could not continue this. Personally, your posts have been blessings to me and I know others feel the same way. I am very disappointed in this action. How about this motto, instead of changing your “faith” base to Baptist from Christian or leave, why don’t we get those whom are Baptist, that forget what it means to act like Christians and welcome to go? As mentioned before, you’re going to find Baptists from all corners of perspectives. There is no such thing as like-mindedness; I believe this is what Paul in Galatians expresses. The only thing we can hold dear to is our faith in God, in Christ’s atonement and build from there, respectively understanding that our beliefs within this faith base will be different. Not to mention, if I remember correctly, this was the POINT of the boards? Unity in difference?:scratch:

I thought they already created a fundamentalist forum, a reformed forum for these issues that seemed to cause the problem… But I have always felt the Anabaptists should have their own place to discuss; yet I didn’t expect they would be booted out completely. There are many things we do agree on, I sort of thought they brought balance, and actually, I was at one time pretty proud that we, albeit small compared to other forums, we worked it out.

JacobHall86

30th August 2006, 09:56 PM

Meh, Im not that concerned with whether or not the Baptist and Anabaptist are in the same forum or not.

Im proud to be a Baptist, thats why I am one. If I wasnt I wouldnt be one. If someone doesnt want to be a baptist thats fine, but they shouldnt be in the Baptist forum, just as a Baptist shouldnt be in there forum.

mesue

30th August 2006, 10:33 PM

Mesue, I hope I am still welcome to fellowship here even if I am restricted from debate ;)
:hug: Joy :hug:
You are always welcome here.

Erinwilcox

30th August 2006, 10:46 PM

Just to clarify, from Flynmonkie's post, if you are a Baptist, you may post in the Baptist section. I don't think that you need to have a Baptist icon, however (if you do, then I'm in trouble! ;)), I think that a Christian/Protestant/Calvinist icon is fine as long as you establish the fact that you are indeed a Baptist. I don't think an icon change is necessary unless a person wants one. I don't intend to be trading my TULIP anytime soon!

Joykins

30th August 2006, 11:09 PM

Mesue :hug:
Flynmonkie :hug:

.

Im proud to be a Baptist, thats why I am one. If I wasnt I wouldnt be one. If someone doesnt want to be a baptist thats fine, but they shouldnt be in the Baptist forum, just as a Baptist shouldnt be in there forum.

I understand why you are proud to be Baptist. I have great respect for the Baptist way, and identify very closely with the Baptist traditions. I have attended the Graz Baptist Gemeinde and Calvary Baptist in the past, but I don't live in those towns anymore...and if I were to move I might well end up going to a Baptist church again. I expect there are a fair number of people on CF like me, in that. But for right now, my church doesn't have the Baptist name, it is a denomination that is pretty similar but not the same exactly. The same was actually true of Anabaptist as I was raised and came to know Christ and got baptized in a Brethren church, but I haven't gone to that one since I was a teenager. So you see why Baptist/Anabaptist (which contained my current denomination, C&MA) was a very good fit for me.

It's just that the split with Anabaptist has had the previously-unrealized result of leaving me without a forum where I can express myself freely without running a risk of getting in trouble...you guys know how I love to debate. :sorry:

JacobHall86

30th August 2006, 11:12 PM

Do you consider yourself a Baptist or an Anabaptist?

whatever your answer is is where you should go.

Flynmonkie

30th August 2006, 11:16 PM

Im proud to be a Baptist, thats why I am one. If I wasnt I wouldnt be one. If someone doesnt want to be a baptist thats fine, but they shouldnt be in the Baptist forum, just as a Baptist shouldnt be in there forum.

I guess this is what is scary to me, which would one prefer to be proud of first, to be a Christian, or be a Baptist? Now I am not saying all those that have chosen icons of Baptist over Christian mean anything at all, it is the statements and action in this area that follow.

Silly little thing to most, but it speaks volumes to me.

I can understand some basic tenants of the Baptist faith being prominent when trying to discuss and support argument. However, there is no such thing other than total submersion in water it seems...? So, I thought that is why they developed the Reformed, and Fundamental? Not to mention the above situation amongst others that have left some of our fellow post mates “homeless,” I guess new mods, new structure? Who knows?

But I seriously don't like this act that seasoned, well known, longstanding members of this forum, Baptist or not being booted from debate by private vote.. not cool.

Flynmonkie

30th August 2006, 11:20 PM

Do you consider yourself a Baptist or an Anabaptist?

whatever your answer is is where you should go.

No offense but who are you? You have to see how rude this comment comes across? And where do you come from? You have a couple of hundred posts asking someone else that has contributed much to this forum to state their position. She has identified with both, and always has. We have never had a problem with Joy here. The have more difficulty with me than her and I am flat out Baptist (‘tis why I am so outspoken I think)

JacobHall86

30th August 2006, 11:21 PM

I guess this is what is scary to me, which would one prefer to be proud of first, to be a Christian, or be a Baptist? Now I am not saying all those that have chosen icons of Baptist over Christian mean anything at all, it is the statements and action in this area that follow.

Silly little thing to most, but it speaks volumes to me.

I can understand some basic tenants of the Baptist faith being prominent when trying to discuss and support argument. However, there is no such thing other than total submersion in water it seems...? So, I thought that is why they developed the Reformed, and Fundamental? Not to mention the above situation amongst others that have left some of our fellow post mates “homeless,” I guess new mods, new structure? Who knows?

But I seriously don't like this act that seasoned, well known, longstanding members of this forum, Baptist or not being booted from debate by private vote.. not cool.

If they decide to do a private vote thats fine. Its their business. They run the site, not us.

JacobHall86

30th August 2006, 11:24 PM

No offense but who are you? You have to see how rude this comment comes across? And where do you come from? You have a couple of hundred posts asking someone else that has contributed much to this forum to state their position. She has identified with both, and always has. We have never had a problem with Joy here. The have more difficulty with me than her and I am flat out Baptist (‘tis why I am so outspoken I think)

Wow, hostility.

Its not a rude comment. She said she didnt know which forum she belonged in, i just told her straight out the easiest way to do it.

I never said I had a problem with joy, i dont even know who she is.

No offense but who are you?

Flynmonkie

30th August 2006, 11:33 PM

That is exactly my point. There are members here that have taken the time to get to know each other. Become friends. Understand their differences and actually relate. I feel we have taken a step backwards in many respects.

One thing you DO need to know about me, take my posts in a matter of fact "Spock" tone, never hostile, if I am hostile.... you will have no doubt. I say what I mean and mean what I say – sometimes you might need clarification but usually it is pretty to the point.

I started the sentence with – “no offense”. Then I went on to say you have to realize (clue: this means I am trying to give you another perspective to your posted question to a longstanding member.)

For your information, who am I? I am one of the members here that has made friends, bristled feathers and taken the time to listen and converse with others here for quite a while. I feel as if I know, for as much as you can, many of the members in this forum, I don't forget much. I listen. Even in disagreement, I do care.

I would rather this board not turn into the other run of the mill boards around the net that are filled with "fly by night" posters. I would rather be involved with a group of people that wish to contribute to that trust, which was at one point, finally starting to happen around here.

JacobHall86

30th August 2006, 11:36 PM

And according to what has happened they can still do that, they just cant debate.

Flynmonkie

30th August 2006, 11:38 PM

If they decide to do a private vote thats fine. Its their business. They run the site, not us.

Then why ask us to become members of a site that can change at any given moment? How would you feel if you offered support in any way you could to an organization that decided from one day to the next to completely change their mode of operation? In the process of this, longstanding members are hurt for no good reason. This is unacceptable to me. There were no discussions; it was just a done deal.

A site is only as good as it's members.

JacobHall86

30th August 2006, 11:43 PM

I would be angry, unless it was an internet forum, because its just that, an internet forum.

Flynmonkie

30th August 2006, 11:44 PM

I would be angry, unless it was an internet forum, because its just that, an internet forum.

I rest my case.

JacobHall86

30th August 2006, 11:45 PM

I rest my case.

??? I was saying I wouldnt be angry if it was an internet forum, because there is no reason to get angry over an internet forum. If it was something that happened in real life I would be angry. But not angry over something on an internet forum.

Flynmonkie

30th August 2006, 11:58 PM

??? I was saying I wouldnt be angry if it was an internet forum, because there is no reason to get angry over an internet forum. If it was something that happened in real life I would be angry. But not angry over something on an internet forum.

Actually, anger is not the word for it, I believe I have chosen the word disgust and dissapointment.

Words from our sponser Erwin seem to echo in my ears on why he founded this forum. Let me quote him:

...<snip> ChristianForums is an amazing Communtiy - I can hardly believe it's less than three years old. Tell us about it.

Well, it's the largest Christian forum site in the world at the moment. It's ranked as the 4th largest vBulletin forum by Big-Boards, and is in their Top 20th largest forums ever.

I started it as a hobby, but feel that it has become an "online ministry" for myself - a way I can contribute my time and services to Christianity.

> Did your ever dream it would grow so large?

Well, it was always a dream that it would become a place where ALL Christians could gather on the internet....<snip>Anyway, to cut a long story short, I was running a medical search engine site (www.medlinepro.com - which I sold 3-4 years ago) when I got involved with www.searchengineforums.com - I became a moderator there and learned a lot about SEO techniques etc. I then decided to start my own community.

I started with ezboard, and moved from there to UBB, and then to vBulletin, and the rest is history. :)

> Are they an important part of the internet? Of people's lives?

Absolutely, for some more than others. There are a lot of disconnected and lonely people out there. Online communities offer a chance for people to connect with people with whom they will probably never meet otherwise, from all over the world.... <snip>
There is more to life than money and material wealth. The value of a man is not in what he has or what he has achieved - it is in how many lives he has changed for the better. So go out there, and make a difference in someone's life. We are not here long - so make it count. :)... <snip>
http://www.theadminzone.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-3122.html

If this is the case, silly me, I believed it.:doh: Why set up a place for lonely people to get to know one another only to reject them, or give that impression without second thought or consideration of their feelings?

JacobHall86

31st August 2006, 12:04 AM

Because at the end of the day this is a website that has to be payed for. And the people who run it make the decisions. Noone is sayin the Baptist forum is closed to nonbaptists, jsut that they cant debate.

And you can keep talkin about feelings and emotions all you want, I dont care about them.

Flynmonkie

31st August 2006, 12:11 AM

And you can keep talkin about feelings and emotions all you want, I dont care about them.

I rest my case again.

So we shall treat this site in the same manner in which it treats us. Just another mindless internet site that bears the name "christian" in it's title.

Dmckay

31st August 2006, 12:22 AM

There are Non-Denoms that are far more like Baptist than Non-Denominational, and yet they're still Non-Denominational. There are Reformed Churches that are far more like Baptist, yet they're still Reformed.
I'll seek counsel from those that know better. Then we'll have something more to go on.

While your statement is absolutely true, within those churches that still call themselves Baptist there is wide swing in what the churches believe and practice. I was told at one time by the President of a Baptist Seminary which was supposed to be Independent Baptist, but had mostly GARB Professors that I would never be called to a GARB or Independent Baptist Pastorate as long as I held an Ordination certificate from a Conservative Baptist Church.

Since that time, CBs have become so liberal that one of their Seminaries even dropped Baptist from their Title because they were afraid that it would offend too many people. The son of a couple who are close friends are deeply upset over their son announcing that he no longer believes in the existence of G-d because of a required course he had to take from this seminary to fulfill the requirements for his Masters as a Spiritual Guide.

I'm afraid that Baptist has come to mean very little any more, when at one time, Baptists and Biblical fundamentalism were synonymous. I know that this doesn't clear up the original question, but it IS pretty hard to pin down just what is meant by Baptist anymore.

Joykins

31st August 2006, 09:26 AM

Erwin has made a decision. (http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=26348543&postcount=18)

Joykins

1st September 2006, 10:36 PM

Or maybe not...

JPPT1974

1st September 2006, 11:25 PM

We have to abide with Erwin
And that whatever he says
Goes and rules even if we
Don't or may not agree with it!
Rules are rules and not meant to
Be broken my friends!

Joykins

1st September 2006, 11:26 PM

It would probably help if I knew what the eventual rule was going to be ;)

mesue

2nd September 2006, 01:01 AM

JacobHall86

2nd September 2006, 01:24 AM

kitkatsnarepadpen

2nd September 2006, 10:44 AM

I have a question about this, Why do people want to be part of the Baptist Forum even though they arent Baptist? It doesnt make sense to me, if you arent Baptist what is the appeal of the Baptist Forum?
It's because "Baptist" is the closest thing to what they are. They aren't comfortable in an Anabaptist forum....... because thats not what they are. Where do you expect them to go if Baptist is the only thing they can relate to?

You know what it really is though? It's the Baptist of this forum that don't want to confront any issues that may question their beliefs. I remember a couple years ago you could go into the these forums and ask questions and have discusion.........

........ not anymore. This site has become way to full of cowards and elitist. It's a shame really.

christian73

2nd September 2006, 10:51 AM

It's because "Baptist" is the closest thing to what they are. They aren't comfortable in an Anabaptist forum....... because thats not what they are. Where do you expect them to go if Baptist is the only thing they can relate to?

You know what it really is though? It's the Baptist of this forum that don't want to confront any issues that may question their beliefs. I remember a couple years ago you could go into the these forums and ask questions and have discusion.........

........ not anymore. This site has become way to full of cowards and elitist. It's a shame really.
To question one's belief is a form of debate. This is not a debate forum. You certainly have the right to question someone's beliefs, but there is a proper debate forum for that.

JacobHall86

2nd September 2006, 11:09 AM

It's because "Baptist" is the closest thing to what they are. They aren't comfortable in an Anabaptist forum....... because thats not what they are. Where do you expect them to go if Baptist is the only thing they can relate to?

You know what it really is though? It's the Baptist of this forum that don't want to confront any issues that may question their beliefs. I remember a couple years ago you could go into the these forums and ask questions and have discusion.........

........ not anymore. This site has become way to full of cowards and elitist. It's a shame really.

If you are calling me an elitist and a coward you had better step back.

I dont care if someone who isnt a baptist debates in this forum. I just dont want some kid coming here willy nilly making crap up tryin to debate us and wasting time because they dont take the Bible seriously.

Ill confrony any issue, I just dont have a desire to debate a liberal who takes the Bible seriously on issues they want to, and think its not important in others.

Erinwilcox

2nd September 2006, 11:18 AM

You know what it really is though? It's the Baptist of this forum that don't want to confront any issues that may question their beliefs. I remember a couple years ago you could go into the these forums and ask questions and have discusion.........

........ not anymore. This site has become way to full of cowards and elitist. It's a shame really.

Non-baptists can and do still ask questions here. However, the point of the rule is so that people who want to come in here and "teach the Baptists a lesson or two" by debating issues that go against Baptist doctrine CANNOT do so--it disrupts that harmony of the fellowship here. People who truly have questions that they would like answered are WELCOMED here.

kitkatsnarepadpen

2nd September 2006, 11:44 AM

Non-baptists can and do still ask questions here. However, the point of the rule is so that people who want to come in here and "teach the Baptists a lesson or two" by debating issues that go against Baptist doctrine CANNOT do so--it disrupts that harmony of the fellowship here. People who truly have questions that they would like answered are WELCOMED here.
Thank you for the mature response to my rather immature post. If someone has the same befiefs as a Baptist yet their church does not have "Baptist" in their name, they are not allowed to post here? It just seems that people are being "kicked" out of here more on their personal beliefs then that of their denominations.

Dmckay

2nd September 2006, 11:49 AM

This isn't a decision to be made lightly. I know you grew up in a Baptist Church but you currently do not attend a Baptist Church. The Episcopal Church is like the Catholic Church with the exception of the issue of divorce. So, is it considered Catholic because it's just like a Catholic church with minor differences? Lutheran is almost like the Episcopalian Church with minor differences. Is it considered Episcopalian with minor differences? Should Episcopalians debate in OBOB? Should they debate in Theologia Crucis - Lutherans? No, because they're not either. The Christian and Missionary Alliance is not Baptist. It may be Baptist like, but it isn't Baptist.

The problem that arises is one of "What's good for the goose is good for the gander." How do we stop debate from non Baptists when their defense would be 1) "I'm Baptist-like" and 2) "You let someone else do it."

The one thing Baptists have in common is the name "Baptist". There's a haughtiness that transcends the Baptist sect. The very word Baptist connotes, among other things, "Bible Thumper" and "Fanatic" and some sort of pre-conceived "Higher Standard". People listen to me when I start talking about the things of God and His word and seem very welcoming at what I have to say. Then they ultimately ask "What church do you go to?" I'll say "First Bible Baptist" the facial expression droops as they say "Oh." It is the word Baptist that disappoints, may I say offends, people. This is the very reason some Baptist churches change their name. They delete the word Baptist from their name in hopes that more people will walk through their door. There are those that say these churches are no longer Baptist but have become Non-Denominational because they dropped the word "Baptist" from their name.

(disclaimer: this is my opinion and does not represent the opinion of CF :D )

Feeding off of what you had to say, excellent post, by the way, there are many people who are attending Baptist churches who may well not realize that they are. This is precisely for the reason that you state in your last paragraph. Since the early 80s there has been a growing movement to drop Baptist from the name of churches in order to make them more "seeker friendly." Many go by "___________" Church of have decided to call themselves Bible churches, or community churches for the reasons that you have stated. They foolishly, refuse to believe that it is actually the "church" part of the name that keeps most people away.

There is one such church in Metro Denver that actually has a dual Baptist affiliation of both Conservative Baptist and General Conference Baptist (these are the old Swedish Baptists).

Given that there exists such a wide divergence of beliefs and practices which are readily seen in browsing through the Churches–Baptist section of the Yellow Pages of any large Metropolitan area (e.g. reformed baptist, free-will baptist, 7th day baptist, et. al.) perhaps it would make more sense to determine whether or not someone is a Baptist by determining their adherence to the historic Baptistic Distinctives:

BAPTIST DISTINCTIVES
BIBLE as complete, inerrant, Word of God, the SOLE authority in all matters of faith and practice, II Tim. 3:16,17.
AUTONOMY of the local church in it’s interdependence in associated fellowship with other churches of like policy and doctrine, Acts 13:1–3; 15:19–27.
PRIESTHOOD of the believer including the right of interpretation, and the competency of the individual believer in direct approach to God, I Pet. 2:5,9; Rev. 1:6.
TOTALLY REGENERATE baptized church membership of born–again believers, Matt. 16:16–18; Acts 2:37–47
IMMERSION of believers in the symbolic ordinance of believer’s baptism and the memorial of the Lord’s Table as the only two (2) ordinances observed in obedience to the command of Christ, Matt. 26:26–29; Rom. 6:3–5; I Cor. 11:23–30.
SEPARATION:
1. of the believer from worldliness and liberalism, those things which constitute spiritual adultery, corrupting the believer’s affection and devotion to Christ. II Cor. 6:17; 7:1
2. absolutely of the Church and state control, Daniel 1:8–17; 3:8–28; Matt. 22:15–21.
THE SOVEREIGN PRE–EMINENCE of Jesus Christ as our Divine Lord and master, the Head of His Body, the Church, Eph. 1:20–23; Phil. 2:9–11; Col. 1:15–19.

World–Wide program of MISSIONARY FERVOR AND EVANGELISM in obedience to the final command of our Lord Jesus Christ, Matt. 28:18–20; Acts 1:8–9.
Many, perhaps most, would hold to this next position out of a misplaced emphasis on a misunderstood understanding of unity. The unity prayed for by Christ and enjoined by Paul in Phil. 2:1-4 is for a unity with and under the control of God’s Spirit. The apathetic commitment of Christians today coupled with the inclusion of large numbers of unsaved “believers” makes this a dangerous and foolish policy.
Solemn obligation of MAJORITY RULE (Democratic Rule), guaranteeing equal rights to all and special privileges to none. Seeking to maintain spiritual unity of all believers for which our Lord so earnestly prayed, John 17; Phil. 2:1–4.

The anagram may be a bit corny and forced, but the distinctives have been widely used for quite some time as a test of whether or not different groups fell under the heading of Baptist. Personally, I feel that if someone is ashamed or embarrassed to call themselves Baptist, they aren't. I have a non-denominational cross on my IDent box for two reasons, first, I was ordained and licensed to preach by a Conservative Baptist Church–and they don't call themselves a denomination, but rather a movement. (Semantics, I know, but what can you do?) Secondly, the Conservative Baptist Movement has become so liberal that they are slowly dying out, and I really don't want to be identified with they have come to represent.

I still consider myself a Baptist and adhere to the Biblical Baptist distinctives. If someone were to visit my profile page they would see that I list my "World-view" as Biblicist. My primary loyalty and devotion is to my Lord Jesus Christ and His Word, my secondary loyalty is to my Church—as long as they adhere to the Truth of G-d's Word. I have preached in and taught in churches from several denominations based not on their name, but rather on their devotion to the Lord and His Truth. As I said earlier, not every church that goes by the title Baptist is actually Baptistic.

kitkatsnarepadpen

2nd September 2006, 11:56 AM

If you are calling me an elitist and a coward you had better step back.

I dont care if someone who isnt a baptist debates in this forum. I just dont want some kid coming here willy nilly making crap up tryin to debate us and wasting time because they dont take the Bible seriously.

Ill confrony any issue, I just dont have a desire to debate a liberal who takes the Bible seriously on issues they want to, and think its not important in others.

Step back? Haha. Don't issue silly threats over the internet..... it makes you look rediculous. Don't think for a moment I was speaking only about you.

There is no such thing as a Liberal Baptist?

and trust me, everybody picks and chooses parts of the bible they want to take seriously. Even you my friend.

JacobHall86

2nd September 2006, 12:09 PM

It was by no means a threat. I simply wont be called an elitist by someone who knows nothing about me.

kitkatsnarepadpen

2nd September 2006, 12:13 PM

It was by no means a threat. I simply wont be called an elitist by someone who knows nothing about me.
Who called you an elitist? I certainly did not.

JacobHall86

2nd September 2006, 12:17 PM

Who called you an elitist? I certainly did not.

You said this place had become full of elitist and cowards, after directly quoting me.

However I do agree, it is full of that. I wish people would stop going to the Mods for everything. Its crazy. Its the Safe for the Whole family mentality that is destroying Christianity because it has turned mainstream christians into people who are so worried about offending someone they wont preach the gospel.

kitkatsnarepadpen

2nd September 2006, 12:22 PM

However I do agree, it is full of that. I wish people would stop going to the Mods for everything. Its crazy. Its the Safe for the Whole family mentality that is destroying Christianity because it has turned mainstream christians into people who are so worried about offending someone they wont preach the gospel.
This is true

mesue

2nd September 2006, 12:26 PM

Step back? Haha. Don't issue silly threats over the internet..... it makes you look rediculous. Don't think for a moment I was speaking only about you.

There is no such thing as a Liberal Baptist?

and trust me, everybody picks and chooses parts of the bible they want to take seriously. Even you my friend.
:scratch: Really?

kitkatsnarepadpen Climb On! http://www3.christianforums.com/images/userinfo/Male.gif http://www3.christianforums.com/images/flags/United%20States.gif http://www3.christianforums.com/images/userinfo/4years.gif http://www3.christianforums.com/images/userinfo/US-Libertarian.gif http://www3.christianforums.com/images/mood/Hmmm.gif
http://www3.christianforums.com/images/b.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/friends.php?u=2177) http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/bless.gif http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/comment.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/guestbook.php?do=viewuser&u=2177) http://www3.christianforums.com/images/userinfo/gift.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/payments.php?gift=true&userid=2177) http://www3.christianforums.com/images/statusicon/user_online.gif 12:20 PM http://www3.christianforums.com/images/misc/im_aim.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=26404282#) http://www3.christianforums.com/images/misc/im_msn.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=26404282#)
What is this?
http://www3.christianforums.com/images/userinfo/US-Libertarian.gif
One would have to assume that you are Baptist for you to debate in this forum so ferverently.

kitkatsnarepadpen

2nd September 2006, 12:28 PM

:scratch: Really?

What is this?
http://www3.christianforums.com/images/userinfo/US-Libertarian.gif
One would have to assume that you are Baptist for you to debate in this forum so ferverently.

indeed

mesue

2nd September 2006, 12:31 PM

indeed
You're a rare breed.

kitkatsnarepadpen

2nd September 2006, 12:34 PM

You're a rare breed.

What? A moderate Baptist?

Joykins

2nd September 2006, 12:48 PM

For the sake of argument I would regard anyone as Baptist who attends a church affiliated with any Baptist movement or conference.

Same as I'm C&MA by attending and being involved in one of their churches.

VT_Boy

2nd September 2006, 12:54 PM

Did you just get an faith icon change? :scratch: I don't remember seeing you post in here before even though you've been a member a long time.

Didn't you just ask for a different congregational forum in the Site Supporter's forum? :scratch:

EDIT:
You did
Why do you want another one, when you're a Baptist member?
http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=25586902&postcount=1 (http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=25586902&postcount=1) Forum idea

I would like to make a suggestion for a new congregational forum.

I noticed that there is no forum for the postmodern/emergent church movement. This is probably one of the fastest growing christian movement in the states. at least with young adults.

Has this been considered? Thanks.

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=25592071&postcount=3
Well, there are a few others in the congregational that aren't really denominations (imo... Liberal).

But... I just think that it would be a great chance for discussion and would be a very busy forum. http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=25979118&postcount=7 (http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=25979118&postcount=7)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodern_Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodern_Christianity)

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_church)

kitkatsnarepadpen

2nd September 2006, 01:02 PM

JacobHall86

2nd September 2006, 01:18 PM

I personally believe the postmodern thing is a joke. Changing church for nonbelievers? Yea, thats not what its about.

kitkatsnarepadpen

2nd September 2006, 01:24 PM

Thats not what this thread is about, but if you want to discuss it, I am sure you will be welcome to in WWMC.

kitkatsnarepadpen

2nd September 2006, 01:25 PM

or we can setup a formal debate.

mesue

2nd September 2006, 01:38 PM

What? A moderate Baptist?
No, a Liberal Baptist.
I can't relate to Baptist. If it weren't for their stance on missions....... I would have nothing to do with them.

You've just admitted that you are not truly Baptist. Maybe you attended a Baptist church with your parents when you first joined, but, as you have said, you are not Baptist now. Many Non-Baptist churches have the same stance on missions that the Baptists do (probably because it's Biblical) yet remain non-Baptist.

kitkatsnarepadpen

2nd September 2006, 01:50 PM

No, a Liberal Baptist.

You've just admitted that you are not truly Baptist. Maybe you attended a Baptist church with your parents when you first joined, but, as you have said, you are not Baptist now. Many Non-Baptist churches have the same stance on missions that the Baptists do (probably because it's Biblical) yet remain non-Baptist.

So, not being a conservaive makes me a liberal?

I still have a membership at a Baptist church. So, technically, I am.

JacobHall86

2nd September 2006, 01:55 PM

So, not being a conservaive makes me a liberal?

I still have a membership at a Baptist church. So, technically, I am.

I still have a membership with the Boy Scouts. Im not a Boy Scout though.

kitkatsnarepadpen

2nd September 2006, 02:00 PM

I still have a membership with the Boy Scouts. Im not a Boy Scout though.

But do you really still have a membership then?

Erinwilcox

2nd September 2006, 02:05 PM

JacobHall86

2nd September 2006, 02:06 PM

But do you really still have a membership then?

I still have a membership. Still on record. And occasionally I still get stuff from them in the mail.

kitkatsnarepadpen

2nd September 2006, 02:12 PM

My grandparents are Reformed Baptist (so I remind them often) but hold membership in an OPC church since there is no RB church up there. I love their church and their pastors and the people in it. . .it's a good church. They have the membership, but does that necessarily make them Presbyterian?

So, you are admitting that the persecution that is happening on this forum is based on someone's personal beliefs and not on their denominations?

What gives you guys the right to pick and chose who is a Baptist. If someone wants to claim themselves as a Baptist then let it be so.

How is that not elitism?

JacobHall86

2nd September 2006, 02:15 PM

So, you are admitting that the persecution that is happening on this forum is based on someone's personal beliefs and not on their denominations?

What gives you guys the right to pick and chose who is a Baptist. If someone wants to claim themselves as a Baptist then let it be so.

How is that not elitism?

I would agree with you IF the person was not being dishonest. However they are, they are claiming to be something they are not.

Flynmonkie

2nd September 2006, 02:16 PM

So, you are admitting that the persecution that is happening on this forum is based on someone's personal beliefs and not on their denominations?

What gives you guys the right to pick and chose who is a Baptist. If someone wants to claim themselves as a Baptist then let it be so.

How is that not elitism?

Kit, I, amongst others have seen this coming for weeks before it happened. I believe you are dead on. Just thought I would give my .02 cents.

mesue

2nd September 2006, 02:29 PM

So, not being a conservaive makes me a liberal?

I still have a membership at a Baptist church. So, technically, I am.
Umm ... No, you're Liberal icon makes you Liberal.
Is this Baptist membership through your parents, technically?

kitkatsnarepadpen

2nd September 2006, 02:29 PM

I would agree with you IF the person was not being dishonest. However they are, they are claiming to be something they are not.
I assume you are speaking of me?

Flynmonkie

2nd September 2006, 02:30 PM

I would agree with you IF the person was not being dishonest. However they are, they are claiming to be something they are not.

Did I understand your post correctly that Joy is dishonest?:eek:

JacobHall86

2nd September 2006, 02:31 PM

I assume you are speaking of me?

No, I apologize if it appeared that way. I was referring to the hypothetical situation you had put forth. I am not calling you dishonest, as you are technically a Member of a Baptist Church, you dont seem to be a Baptist.

mesue

2nd September 2006, 02:32 PM

So, you are admitting that the persecution that is happening on this forum is based on someone's personal beliefs and not on their denominations?

What gives you guys the right to pick and chose who is a Baptist. If someone wants to claim themselves as a Baptist then let it be so.

How is that not elitism?
:scratch: What gives people the right to pick and choose on any other forum?
I grew up Catholic. A priest told me that "Once a Catholic always a Catholic," Should I claim to be Catholic? By this reasoning, I should be allowed to debate in OBOB.

kitkatsnarepadpen

2nd September 2006, 02:32 PM

Umm ... No, you're Liberal icon makes you Liberal.
Is this Baptist membership through your parents, technically?

Haha, it's a Libertarian icon. Please pay attention to details before you make assumptions.

and no, it's under my own accord.

Flynmonkie

2nd September 2006, 02:35 PM

:scratch: What gives people the right to pick and choose on any other forum?
I grew up Catholic. A priest told me that "Once a Catholic always a Catholic," Should I claim to be Catholic? By this reasoning, I should be allowed to debate in OBOB.

Sue, to my understanding, we should stay to which we were called. Just because we outgrow, or vary in opinion on those teachings non-essential to salvation, does this mean we move away from our "church" of membership? Or do we continue to grow and associate with those Christians?

JacobHall86

2nd September 2006, 02:38 PM

Erinwilcox

2nd September 2006, 02:39 PM

and no, it's under my own accord.
Do you mind if I ask where this "debate" is going? Your icon says you are Baptist, so why aren't you just posting in the Baptist section rather than arguing about whether or not you are Baptist? Would anyone have questioned it if you had just started posting in the other threads? At this point, I'm just wondering where this whole thing is leading and if there is any good in continuing it further.

kitkatsnarepadpen

2nd September 2006, 02:43 PM

Flynmonkie

2nd September 2006, 02:46 PM

Here is one perspective that I would lean towards. Whether or not you are a Baptist, whether or not you adhere to baptist Principles and Doctrine, This forum is set up for those that are Baptist and adhere to Baptist Principles. If someone does not adhere to those, than they will cause strife and confusion and disunity. They can fellowship here till the cows come home, but they cannot debate issues because that will cause disharmony.

Ok, I think DMckay has explained, amongst others that there is no "basic" Baptist principals other than the fact that we are supposed to all be Christians.. And we believe in total submersion rather than sprinkling -- even that varies amongst the autonomous Baptist churches. So I think by all means you should figure out what those principals are for cleansing this forum and then set up a forum for the rest of us.

mesue

2nd September 2006, 02:48 PM

Haha, it's a Libertarian icon. Please pay attention to details before you make assumptions.

and no, it's under my own accord.
Might I suggest you do the same?
From http://www.theihs.org/category.php/142.html
The libertarian, or "classical liberal," perspective is that individual well-being, prosperity, and social harmony are fostered by "as much liberty as possible" and "as little government as necessary."
...
According to Funk and Wagnall's Dictionary

lib-er-tar-i-an, n. 1. a person who advocates liberty, esp. with regard to thought or conduct.... advocating liberty or conforming to principles of liberty.
According to American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000. (http://www.bartleby.com/61/97/L0149700.html)

NOUN: 1. One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state.
The Challenge of Democracy (6th edition), by Kenneth Janda, Jeffrey Berry, and Jerry Goldman
Liberals favor government action to promote equality, whereas conservatives favor government action to promote order. Libertarians favor freedom and oppose government action to promote either equality or order.

JacobHall86

2nd September 2006, 02:49 PM

Ok, I think DMckay has explained, amongst others that there is no "basic" Baptist principals other than the fact that we are supposed to all be Christians.. And we believe in total submersion rather than sprinkling -- even that varies amongst the autonomous Baptist churches. So I think by all means you should figure out what those principals are for cleansing this forum and then set up a forum for the rest of us.

Baptist are usually seen as very conservative, while adhering to atleast one doctrine of Calvinism, if not more. They take the Bible as the inspired innerrant infallable Word of God.

Also, reference the London Baptist Confession that Spurgeon headed up.

mesue

2nd September 2006, 02:49 PM

but you are a member of a Baptist Church...... correct?
Technically

kitkatsnarepadpen

2nd September 2006, 02:52 PM

Do you mind if I ask where this "debate" is going? Your icon says you are Baptist, so why aren't you just posting in the Baptist section rather than arguing about whether or not you are Baptist? Would anyone have questioned it if you had just started posting in the other threads? At this point, I'm just wondering where this whole thing is leading and if there is any good in continuing it further.

I don't see this as a debate. It's me defending myself against assumption that are being made. My issue is that thereare people that identify themselves as Baptist but you guys have labeled them "Liberals" and therefore they are not welcomed here. I personally can't relate to most Baptist and I do not post in this forum, mostly because the discussion would end up like the current one with labels being thrown around.

I still have gotten no answers to some of the questions I have asked. I find it strange that there are people that would rather come after me then confront the question I have posed.

mesue

2nd September 2006, 02:54 PM

...
I find it strange that there are people that would rather come after me then confront the question I have posed.
Which is ...?

Flynmonkie

2nd September 2006, 02:55 PM

Might I suggest you do the same?
From http://www.theihs.org/category.php/142.html

It is my understanding that Libertarian is a Political Stance and is not always combined with Christian values. Menno was at one point Libertarian (I thought) and he is Anabaptist! Certainly not Liberal!;)

kitkatsnarepadpen

2nd September 2006, 02:56 PM

Might I suggest you do the same?
From http://www.theihs.org/category.php/142.html
Thank you for posting something that states Libertarians are different then Liberals.

Erinwilcox

2nd September 2006, 02:56 PM

I don't see this as a debate. It's me defending myself against assumption that are being made. My issue is that thereare people that identify themselves as Baptist but you guys have labeled them "Liberals" and therefore they are not welcomed here. I personally can't relate to most Baptist and I do not post in this forum, mostly because the discussion would end up like the current one with labels being thrown around.

I still have gotten no answers to some of the questions I have asked. I find it strange that there are people that would rather come after me then confront the question I have posed.

Ummm. . .perhaps you could remind me of the place where it was said that somebody with a Baptist icon couldn't post here because they were liberal...I don't have the time or the energy to go back through all the stuff myself. If somebody has a Baptist icon and is a Baptist, then they can post in the Baptist area. Or, if a person IS a Baptist, but doesn't have the icon (like me), and attend a Baptist church then they can post here. The icon is more what a person believes than what church they attend.

JacobHall86

2nd September 2006, 02:57 PM

Libertarians are differant. I personally dont believe that it would ever work in society, But i am def in agreement with how Pro-Capitalist the Liberterian party is.

JacobHall86

2nd September 2006, 03:00 PM

1689 London Baptist Convention:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1689_Baptist_Confession_of_Faith

kitkatsnarepadpen

2nd September 2006, 03:00 PM

Which is ...?
Why are people who claim to have the same beliefs not allowed to debate because they have been labeled Liberals?

JacobHall86

2nd September 2006, 03:02 PM

Why are people who claim to have the same beliefs not allowed to debate because they have been labeled Liberals?

I dont think anyone has actually said that. If they are not Baptist and Liberal than they arent allowed to debate. However if they are Baptist and Liberal (CBF perhaps?) than they can.

mesue

2nd September 2006, 03:04 PM

Why are people who claim to have the same beliefs not allowed to debate because they have been labeled Liberals?
Liberal Baptists may debate here, just as Conservative Baptists can. You just have to be Baptist to debate here.

mesue

2nd September 2006, 03:05 PM

is see friends from elsewhere :wave:

kitkatsnarepadpen

2nd September 2006, 03:05 PM

Ummm. . .perhaps you could remind me of the place where it was said that somebody with a Baptist icon couldn't post here because they were liberal...I don't have the time or the energy to go back through all the stuff myself. If somebody has a Baptist icon and is a Baptist, then they can post in the Baptist area. Or, if a person IS a Baptist, but doesn't have the icon (like me), and attend a Baptist church then they can post here. The icon is more what a person believes than what church they attend.
I'm not saying that they aren't being allowed, but they aren't being very welcomed. I am just relaying some of the sentiments of others.

There are people that want to have fellowship with you guys. I just ask that you welcome them.

I'm done with this discussion. God bless.

kitkatsnarepadpen

2nd September 2006, 03:07 PM

Actually I did say they aren't being allowed. That was a mis speak. my last post should clean that up.

JacobHall86

2nd September 2006, 03:08 PM

Oh, than its because of the users, not the admin.

Erinwilcox

2nd September 2006, 03:08 PM

I'm not saying that they aren't being allowed, but they aren't being very welcomed. I am just relaying some of the sentiments of others.

There are people that want to have fellowship with you guys. I just ask that you welcome them.

I'm done with this discussion. God bless.
Hmmm. ..

Why are people who claim to have the same beliefs not allowed to debate because they have been labeled Liberals?

kitkatsnarepadpen

2nd September 2006, 03:10 PM

Hmmm. ..
haha, like I said above.

kitkatsnarepadpen

2nd September 2006, 03:15 PM

Oh, than its because of the users, not the admin.

Yes

JacobHall86

2nd September 2006, 03:17 PM

Yes

Then there isnt really much you can do about it.

kitkatsnarepadpen

2nd September 2006, 03:20 PM

Then there isnt really much you can do about it.
I understand that. Maybe they don't realize they are in the wrong. Now they should know.

Joykins

2nd September 2006, 03:30 PM

Yikes :eek: this is getting a bit off topic.

My understanding is that the basic idea of the Congregational Forum is that Baptists can safely discuss and debate *each other* here about Baptist doctrine rather than having to deal with, say, Catholics coming in and debating a Catholic viewpoint every time they post something. People of any other denomination are of course welcome to post on fellowship threads and ask questions, but not to debate.

So, there are topics that come up for debate in this thread which aren't doctrinal topics at all for Baptists (Death penalty anyone?) or doctrinal or ecclesiological topics on which Baptists themselves disagree with each other (women's ordination, etc.). Because my church is similar to Baptist, and my personal beliefs are probably even more similar to historic Baptist beliefs than my church's is, I am interested in the topics at hand and interested in engaging in such discussions without having to ask myself "is this debating" at every turn. It is not my interest to try to post anything here to try to challenge basic Baptist beliefs, or to be rude, or anything like that. I don't think you'll find me putting forth a viewpoint here in areas of doctrinal discussion that a group of Baptists hasn't shared at one point or another.

I do think, and this is an administrative matter, that when this forum was created a few weeks ago, not much--strike, that, make that NO thought was given to the "similar denominations" that were technically neither Baptist or Anabaptist that were supposed to be full members in here before. Whoever DID make the decision to split the forum should have taken responsibility to make sure that everyone had someplace to go. This is something that can still be done.

kitkatsnarepadpen

2nd September 2006, 03:35 PM

Yikes :eek: this is getting a bit off topic.

Um... sorry Joy...... That was my fault.:sorry:

JacobHall86

2nd September 2006, 10:50 PM

Death penalty anyone?

Whoever came up with those ideas is a genious.......... :cool:

JPPT1974

5th September 2006, 02:14 PM

Whoever came up with those ideas is a genious.......... :cool:

Yeah I couldn't agree with you
Anymore Jacob!:thumbsup: