Amnesty Day III - everyone has zero warnings! :)

[Erwin]

I've deleted the previous custom warning system and user note system and will now use the inbuilt forum software infraction system.

So everyone starts from scratch with zero warnings.

This is mainly because the old system is directly incompatible with the new system.

The new system is fairly simple - there are 2 layers, similar to before:

1. Infraction - this is a red card. This is similar to the old "official warning". Only these are appealable since only these count towards a suspension or ban.

2. Warning - this is a yellow card. This is similar to the old "unofficial warning/alert". This is merely a reminder and is not counted towards a suspension or ban, and are not appealable.

Hopefully this system will simplify matters - at the very least it should not be buggy.

More information should follow.

[daveleau]

Thanks, Erwin. Are any other major changes built in the upgrade, Erwin?

In Him,
Dave

[MariaRegina]

Thanks Erwin.


In the future, can a warning be removed if the mod made a mistake?

[edb19]

Sounds like soccer;) That makes it easy to understand.

Thanks for all the hard work Erwin - it is appreciated.

edie

[Truly Blessed]

I wish I would have know ahead of time ;) .

[CaDan]

Thanks Erwin.


In the future, can a warning be removed if the mod made a mistake?

Yup. Infractions, too.

[Henaynei]

one wonders - what are the rewards under the CF system for those of us who work hard to never GET warnings/infractions??

we all know that there are habitual violators who *greatly* benefit from these now [at least] annual amnesties.....

whilst the rest of the membership who *never* had a warning just have to continue to struggle to endure the slings and offenses of the habitual offenders who yearly get a clean slate on which to restart their willful accumulation of infractions and "near misses" and who, by virtue of their misbehavior reap grace and benefits....

while those who are faithful to confine themselves within the rules are essentially taken for granted and ignored.....

[MariaRegina]

one wonders - what are the rewards under the CF system for those of us who work hard to never GET warnings/infractions??

we all know that there are habitual violators who *greatly* benefit from these now [at least] annual amnesties.....

whilst the rest of the membership who *never* had a warning just have to continue to struggle to endure the slings and offenses of the habitual offenders who yearly get a clean slate on which to restart their willful accumulation of infractions and "near misses" and who, by virtue of their misbehavior reap grace and benefits....

while those who are faithful to confine themselves within the rules are essentially taken for granted and ignored.....

Ah! But we will get heavenly treasures and earthly peace of mind.

See the Beatitudes:

"For great is your reward in heaven."

[seebs]

Do warnings count towards infractions? For instance, does a history of warnings influence your chances of geting an infraction for something borderline?

[alaurie]

one wonders - what are the rewards under the CF system for those of us who work hard to never GET warnings/infractions??

we all know that there are habitual violators who *greatly* benefit from these now [at least] annual amnesties.....

whilst the rest of the membership who *never* had a warning just have to continue to struggle to endure the slings and offenses of the habitual offenders who yearly get a clean slate on which to restart their willful accumulation of infractions and "near misses" and who, by virtue of their misbehavior reap grace and benefits....

while those who are faithful to confine themselves within the rules are essentially taken for granted and ignored.....


Yep ...it's a weird sort of grace.

Reminds me of my small-town Southern Baptist upbringing. You could live like hell during the week then walk the aisle to publically 'rededicate' your life on the occasional Sunday morning. Only with these blanket amnesties there isn't even a need for any sort of repentance ....private/public, sincere, or for show.

[tall73]

This is mainly because the old system is directly incompatible with the new system.



This was not mainly a policy decision, but a forced software reality.

And we can react in a grudging way or be glad that there is grace.

This amnesty day was rather close to the past one. But since this new system is built in that should not be a problem in the future. Erwin had to hand code many of the CF features, and the discipline system used to be one of them. The built in system should be less buggy, just because it is default, and should transfer to the next version.

[alaurie]

This was not mainly a policy decision, but a forced software reality.




Thanks :) Didn't catch that initially.

[Henaynei]

I totally understand that *this* specific amnesty was "forced by the software" - I am also aware that this is "Amnesty #3" (well, actually it is #4, but who is counting :o )

The issue I bring up is not specific to this "amnesty" but to the principle in general, the way it is handled and the flagrant inequity and lack of gratitude it shows toward those on this board who are diligent in their obedience of the rules vs the free, painless/effortless and easy grace shown on a nearly scheduled basis to those who make rule violation their practice dejur....

[tall73]

Thanks :) Didn't catch that initially.


No problem :)

[tall73]

I totally understand that *this* specific amnesty was "forced by the software" - I am also aware that this is "Amnesty #3" (well, actually it is #4, but who is counting :o )

The issue I bring up is not specific to this "amnesty" but to the principle in general, the way it is handled and the flagrant inequity and lack of gratitude it shows toward those on this board who are diligent in their obedience of the rules vs the free, painless/effortless and easy grace shown on a nearly scheduled basis to those who make rule violation their practice dejur....


I cannot say for sure, but I think they were all essentially software issues. Maybe someone on staff longer can say with more authority. Everytime that the VBulletin software changed it was necessary for security etc. to upgrade. Since Erwin had to code everything that could throw off moving the records to the new system.

In other words, it is great in principle to keep these records, but sometimes the records are very hard to transfer over. It is a technical issue.

But more to the point, do you really need a reward for doing what is right?

I never had an official contact or warning before anyway (though I did get a staff edit request when I deserved one!)

But I didn't think that entitled me to anything. I should be doing what I agreed to in the rules agreement.
We are servants of God, bound by our own oath, by conscience sake and by love for Christ to follow the rules--especially those dealing with simple courtesy. Why should we expect a reward for what was our duty?

Now if it s a valid concern that some have abused the system. But with this new software being built in I think that will change in the future. For now, just like in the real world, we have to follow Paul's admonition:

Rom 12:17 Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all.
Rom 12:18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.

[Henaynei]

I cannot say for sure, but I think they were all essentially software issues. I was on staff for 2 years, part of that in Administration - trust me - I *can* say for sure, they were *not* software issues ;) - none but this one....

as for abusers of the system - you bet - discussion of who and what the circumstances were would not be appropriate - but there are definitely those let back on CF in the past for whom staff had/have bent themselves nearly in triple trying to get them to comply with CF rules and yet those offenders forced the staff to eventually ban/suspend them, more than once - and when all the "infractions" are deleted, so are the bans....

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[CaDan]

I was on staff for 2 years, part of that in Administration - trust me - I *can* say for sure, they were *not* software issues ;) - none but this one....

as for abusers of the system - you bet - discussion of who and what the circumstances were would not be appropriate - but there are definitely those let back on CF in the past for whom staff had/have bent themselves nearly in triple trying to get them to comply with CF rules and yet those offenders forced the staff to eventually ban/suspend them, more than once - and when all the "infractions" are deleted, so are the bans....

b'Shalom
Henaynei

IIRC, in the amnesty just prior to the most recent one, bans were not reversed.

[tall73]

I was on staff for 2 years, part of that in Administration - trust me - I *can* say for sure, they were *not* software issues ;) - none but this one....




Erwin can clarify if he likes. There may have been more than one motivation, but it is no accident that the amnesty days correlate with software upgrades/database changes:


Upgrade finishes on Feb. 11, amnesty announced on Feb 14.
http://www.christianforums.com/t2564164-upgrades-almost-done-site-90-finished.html

Rebuild of database, then amnesty shortly thereafter.
http://www.christianforums.com/t1931536

[tall73]

IIRC, in the amnesty just prior to the most recent one, bans were not reversed.

Only forum specific if I recall. That seems to be indicated in the old thread. Those for trolling etc. were not.

[Henaynei]

Erwin can clarify if he likes. There may have been more than one motivation, but it is no accident that the amnesty days correlate with software upgrades:


Upgrade finishes on Feb. 11, amnesty announced on Feb 14.
http://www.christianforums.com/t2564164-upgrades-almost-done-site-90-finished.html it certainly made a convenient time - but if you REALLY search the Staff Room archives you will find that the discussion of whether or not to grant that amnesty had nothing to do with any necessity related the software upgrade.... or any previous amnesty -- but, whatever ...

however, the point of my small post is being sidetracked ;)

the violators can depend on rewards whilst those who obey the rules can depend on someone accusing them of a lack of spirituality if they point out that some blessing for obedience would be both kind and generous - at least once in a while.... :sigh:

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[tall73]

it certainly made a convenient time - but if you REALLY search the Staff Room archives you will find that the discussion of whether or not to grant that amnesty had nothing to do with any necessity related the software upgrade.... or any previous amnesty -- but, whatever ...

however, the point of my small post is being sidetracked ;)

the violators can depend on rewards whilst those who obey the rules can depend on someone accusing them of a lack of spirituality if they point out that some blessing for obedience would be both kind and generous - at least once in a while.... :sigh:

b'Shalom
Henaynei

As I said, Erwin can clarify if he wishes.


To me the forums are the rewards. So also is the knowledge that we are keeping our oath.

If you have a concern that we are allowing abuse by this, I can see that. However, this amnesty is due to software issues, according to Erwin. So the problem of possible abuse, though regrettable, seems unavoidable.

Since the amnesty indicates that only points, contacts, warnings, etc. are erased, and does not indicate that it is a a freeing of the banned, then this does reduce the risk of abuse as much as possible given the situation.

During the first amnesty day (when you were on staff I think), there were some unbanned, according to the announcement:
http://www.christianforums.com/t113101-christian-forums-amnesty-day.html

Later amnesty days do not appear to have included this:
http://www.christianforums.com/t3176134-question-about-latest-amnesty.html

So perhaps the implications for the board are a bit different in this case than in the first one.

[alaurie]

the violators can depend on rewards whilst those who obey the rules can depend on someone accusing them of a lack of spirituality if they point out that some blessing for obedience would be both kind and generous - at least once in a while.... :sigh:

b'Shalom
Henaynei


Please know you have blessings in the blessings you bring just by being you to those who admire your true and steadfast character and are 'blessed' to call you friend. :hug:

[CaDan]

Do the old usernotes still exist?

[Erwin]

Do warnings count towards infractions? For instance, does a history of warnings influence your chances of geting an infraction for something borderline?
If a man gets constant warnings for breaching a rule, yes, it will get that person an infraction. Warnings will only count for the SAME rule, but not for another rule - for example, if someone is warned for spamming, they shouldn't get infracted for flaming - 2 different issues.

[Erwin]

Do the old usernotes still exist?
All erased.

We will not have usernotes - the tracking of warnings/infractions should be sufficient.

[Latreia]

All erased.

We will not have usernotes - the tracking of warnings/infractions should be sufficient.




At long last, Christianity.

http://www3.christianforums.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Quantos]

I wish I would have know ahead of time ;) .

LOL :D


( I was thinking the same thing :D )

[MariaRegina]

LOL :D


( I was thinking the same thing :D )

Oh my.

Glad that Erwin didn't post an Amnesty notice ahead of time.

Sounds like an episode from The Cat in the Hat.

[Quantos]

Oh my.

Glad that Erwin didn't post an Amnesty notice ahead of time.

Sounds like an episode from The Cat in the Hat.

Well let's just put it this way.

I've got a few teeth marks in my tongue :D

[Swart]

one wonders - what are the rewards under the CF system for those of us who work hard to never GET warnings/infractions??

Gold stars? ;)

[Rochir]

Would it be possible to make undue deletions of trheads and posts appealable, please?

[chaoschristian]

All erased.

We will not have usernotes - the tracking of warnings/infractions should be sufficient.

What about users who had notes alerting Mods to not take action on that user's account for a particular reason?

I can think of at least one example of a user with a sig who had a user note alerting Mods not to contact or warn the user about the sig henceforth.

How will we serve these kinds of users? What will prevent repeated staff action under these circumstances?

[nyj]

one wonders - what are the rewards under the CF system for those of us who work hard to never GET warnings/infractions??

we all know that there are habitual violators who *greatly* benefit from these now [at least] annual amnesties.....

whilst the rest of the membership who *never* had a warning just have to continue to struggle to endure the slings and offenses of the habitual offenders who yearly get a clean slate on which to restart their willful accumulation of infractions and "near misses" and who, by virtue of their misbehavior reap grace and benefits....

while those who are faithful to confine themselves within the rules are essentially taken for granted and ignored.....

It's a good question. I believe the answer is, for those who struggle and endure the slings and offenses of the habitual offender, their reward will not come from us at CF, but from God Himself. I believe that reward is much more important and significant than anything we can bestow upon you here.

[Henaynei]

It's a good question. I believe the answer is, for those who struggle and endure the slings and offenses of the habitual offender, their reward will not come from us at CF, but from God Himself. I believe that reward is much more important and significant than anything we can bestow upon you here.and by the same scriptural foundation we can leave the correction and punishment of the rebellious to G-d as well - oh, oops!! that puts all the mods out of work!

I thought mods might actually enjoy doing something pleasant for and to the members rather than have nearly their entire activity involved in cleaning up and heading off attacks, violations and discussions on who, what, how, how much and when to or not to hand out notices, warnings and infractions......


silly me, for it seems that all the responses from the mods in this thread have been decidedly negative or dismissive of the idea.....

Oh, well, wash another one.... sorry to have bothered.

Any way - Erwin, I am enjoying the new and improved abilities of this upgrade. :)

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[Erwin]

Some members don't want usernotes so I remove them, now others want usernotes.

I can easily code up my own version. Is that what members and the Conciliators want?

[chaoschristian]

Some members don't want usernotes so I remove them, now others want usernotes.

I can easily code up my own version. Is that what members and the Conciliators want?


Hey Erwin. I don't presume to speak for the Ombudsman and Conciliators as a whole.

I'm just pointing out that the decision had unintended consequences that impacted decisions that came out of appeals and wondering how, if the decision stands as is, we can serve to the best of our ability.

Perhaps there is a solution that does not involve user notes? This is an opportunity for community discernment me thinks.

[Quantos]

Some members don't want usernotes so I remove them, now others want usernotes.

I can easily code up my own version. Is that what members and the Conciliators want?

I think you should stop listing to the members, and listen to what the Lord is directing you to do.

Spend some quiet time with Him & see where He is leading you.

EDIT:
Us Members can't even decide on simple Biblical issues :D

[CaDan]

Some members don't want usernotes so I remove them, now others want usernotes.

I can easily code up my own version. Is that what members and the Conciliators want?

Let it sit for a while.

Measure twice, cut once.

[Swart]

Some members don't want usernotes so I remove them, now others want usernotes.

I can easily code up my own version. Is that what members and the Conciliators want?

I'm a senior moderator on another forum and the issue of user notes is a tricky one. They can be very useful, but I worry about 'secret' notes. I'm sure I would like to see the notes that moderators have written about me. In that forum I plan to suggest a process by which user notes can be made available to the user upon request. Kind of like a FOI request.

Let it sit for a while.

Measure twice, cut once.

Don't forget to stir. :P

[Letalis]

Before I joined staff, I was against the usernotes for fear of abuse. Now that I have joined staff I can see that I was mistaken. Often these usernotes benefited the member, and I had yet to see one that was used for gossip or any of the other complaint. This is just speaking of the very few that I did see...

Perhaps if usernotes were implemented again but members would be able to request to see their own?

[CaDan]

Before I joined staff, I was against the usernotes for fear of abuse. Now that I have joined staff I can see that I was mistaken. Often these usernotes benefited the member, and I had yet to see one that was used for gossip or any of the other complaint. This is just speaking of the very few that I did see...

Perhaps if usernotes were implemented again but members would be able to request to see their own?

Staff is going to keep records no matter what--even if it is just in their memories.

It seems to me to make sense that the records should be kept in some sort of orderly way. To keep the records orderly, I would suggest that each of the notes be stamped with the Staff member who created it and the date it was created. No anonymous notes--if someone makes a note, they have to be responsible for it.

[Letalis]

Staff is going to keep records no matter what--even if it is just in their memories.
Well, the thing about this is often the usernotes were for staff as a whole.

As an example, if someone's signature was iffy (though deemed to be acceptable), and different staff teams were receiving reports about it, a mod might create a usernote saying that the signature was allowed.
It seems to me to make sense that the records should be kept in some sort of orderly way. To keep the records orderly, I would suggest that each of the notes be stamped with the Staff member who created it and the date it was created. No anonymous notes--if someone makes a note, they have to be responsible for it.
Sounds very reasonable...

[Breaking Babylon]

Staff is going to keep records no matter what--even if it is just in their memories.

It seems to me to make sense that the records should be kept in some sort of orderly way. To keep the records orderly, I would suggest that each of the notes be stamped with the Staff member who created it and the date it was created. No anonymous notes--if someone makes a note, they have to be responsible for it.

Sounds very reasonable...

I agree with this.

[Henaynei]

as a former staff member I'd like to also suggest the following:
that the note contain the link to the staff discussion/post that is deemed the definitive decision and that post/discussion contain the text and/or context of the sig or avatar or whatever is at issue - so that a staff member needing to verify that what they see is the same as what was permitted or disallowed by said decision...

notes that would only say "so and so decided that this is ok," but without reference to the documentation would be nearly worthless and will not clear up much confusion as sigs and avatars and such are easily changed, thus what is is not necessarily what was... and therefore may or may not be germane or allowed

[Erwin]

The usernotes removed already did have the author of each note. In any case, I won't be adding it back unless staff and/or members feel it is required.