integrative and alternative medicine

[hungrytiger]

What is thought of integrative and alternative medicine? Things like Traditional Chinese Medicine, Healing Touch, Mind Body Medicine, Energy Medicine, Ayurvedic Medicine.

I believe in the supernatural and that there really are good and bad spirits. I'm sorry if I'm sounding superstitious silly here or something. But I don't know what's going on with these sorts of things. Many of them seemed based in nonChristian religions. And if there's something going on beyond what can just be explained by the physical, it seems that the spiritual is involved. To me that implys the devil and demons.

I was asked to help with a website for an intergrative medicine charity. Maybe at first I was thinking things like, oh, herbs and stuff instead of man-made drugs, I don't know. Anyway, I agreed. Because of complications, I haven't started yet. I'm beginning to have second thoughts though. They seem upfront and I truly believe they want to help treat people and it's not charlatanry, but I am kind'a worried now about some of the alternative methods. Maybe I'm just being silly? I don't know what to do. I don't have a church home right now and I'm rather confused. Please forgive me.

[Shubunkin]

Some herbal and alternate medications operate on very sound scientific principles. It seems to me that saying the Chinese (for example) could never find anything in truth is absurd. However, if there is a religious connotation that accompanies such remedies, I'd be a little wary. I've used some herbal remedies and some of them were Chinese (for example) and got extremely good results. Nothing religious about it, but provided relief to a very hard problem. It was something the doctor couldn't come up with.

[MariaRegina]

Yes, you do have to be careful.

There are good people who are sincere Christians like the people from Trinity College in Indiana, but then there are gnostics and wiccans who believe in weird things and also practice alternative medicine.

You cannot label all natural practitioners as quacks. Just as you cannot trust every M.D. you see. Some are ethical and some not. I cannot go into the pharmacy and take most over-the-counter (OTC) and prescription drugs since I am chemically sensitive.

I must depend on alternative and preventative medicine whenever I come down with the flu or a cold. I have almost died several times because of my multiple drug allergies.

I have found that certain herbs - natural foods are beneficial.

For example, my M.D. told me to take capsicum (cayenne peppers), garlic, onions and lots of Vitamin C whenever I have a cold. This prevents me from coming down with pneumonia.

She also told me to take colloidal silver because I cannot use any antibiotics.

The natural remedies don't have the negative side effects of artificial drugs.

Hope this helps.

[irishseventysix]

Yes, by all means be careful. Resist any method that requires you to empty your mind (consider it a house swept and in order, ready for demonic influences to camp there) or to contact or communicate with spirits.

However, at work, we had an acupuncturist come in, and I experienced it, myself. It was fine, but just to be sure, I prayed the Jesus Prayer consistently throughout the experience. I should be praying it unceasingly, but alas...

[hungrytiger]

Do any of the ones I mentioned at first -- Traditional Chinese Medicine, Healing Touch, Mind Body Medicine, Energy Medicine, Ayurvedic Medicine -- sound like ones to avoid?

I believe that some of the alternative methods really are okay and all, but I fear that some are not. I'm just really ignorant about this stuff and don't know how to tell the difference. I know much of it is becoming more mainstream, but I also know that that doesn't necessarily mean that it's okay.

[MariaRegina]

It hard to tell but Reiki is one to avoid for sure.

However, I have met some Reiki practitioners who are Christians. But I really have to wonder about what they teach.

[Michael the Iconographer]

God made medicine and doctors for a reason, and gave them the skills and knowledge they have for a reason.

[Prawnik]

For what it's worth, any church or Orthodox bookseller in Russia or Ukraine will have books on natural and herbal/traditional medicine.

Typical titles are "God's Pharmacy".

[Greg the byzantine]

example, my M.D. told me to take capsicum (cayenne peppers), garlic, onions and lots of Vitamin C whenever I have a cold. This prevents me from coming down with pneumonia.

Aria, back when I was in Science Research class we had a natural remedies assignment. Basically we had to culture bacteria on Petri Dishes (Serratia Marcescens a gram negative bacteria because it has a natural pink pigment so it is easier to see). We then had to research certain home remedies and pick two to test on the bacteria to see if they had antibacterial properties. My Partner and I picked Garlic and onion because garlic has alacin onion doesn't but they both have sulfur compounds (Sulfur is found in many antibiotics). So we crushed garlic and we crushed onion to extract the juice and then soaked circles cut from sterilized coffee filter and placed it on the petrii dishes. We also made a control using antibiotic disks (Pennecillin, Streptomycin, and 1 other who's name I can't remebmer). When the experiment was over we found that garlic had an antibacterial ring (a clear circle forms around th disk where bacteria are killed) comparable to that of the antibiotics. That was a pretty fun experiment.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Aria, back when I was in Science Research class we had a natural remedies assignment. Basically we had to culture bacteria on Petri Dishes (Serratia Marcescens a gram negative bacteria because it has a natural pink pigment so it is easier to see). We then had to research certain home remedies and pick two to test on the bacteria to see if they had antibacterial properties. My Partner and I picked Garlic and onion because garlic has alacin onion doesn't but they both have sulfur compounds (Sulfur is found in many antibiotics). So we crushed garlic and we crushed onion to extract the juice and then soaked circles cut from sterilized coffee filter and placed it on the petrii dishes. We also made a control using antibiotic disks (Pennecillin, Streptomycin, and 1 other who's name I can't remebmer). When the experiment was over we found that garlic had an antibacterial ring (a clear circle forms around th disk where bacteria are killed) comparable to that of the antibiotics. That was a pretty fun experiment.


You make a good point in that the drugs we take quite often are found in nature, but when you buy the prescription what you are getting is a purified and stronger version of what you could otherwise find in nature. Notice there are no saints who are glorified who are alternative medicine practicers, but there are plenty of saints who were phsyicians.

[Greg the byzantine]

You make a good point in that the drugs we take quite often are found in nature, but when you buy the prescription what you are getting is a purified and stronger version of what you could otherwise find in nature. Notice there are no saints who are glorified who are alternative medicine practicers, but there are plenty of saints who were phsyicians.
Go Saints Cosmas and Daminen, and St. Panteleimon
;)

Oh Yes, and I agree Aspirin is from the bark of the willow tree, Quinine (Used to treat Malaria) is from the Cinchona Tree, Penecillin is a common mold etc. etc. etc.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Go Saints Cosmas and Daminen, and St. Panteleimon
;)

Don't forget St. Luke.

[Greg the byzantine]

Don't forget St. Luke.

Hey I am just mentioning my favorites of course there are many others

[Emmanuel-A]

Saint Basil treats the question of medecine in his Great Asceticon, question n°55.

I have it in French, but I was unable to find it anywhere in English on the net to provide a link.

Anyone knows of a place where to find the Great Asceticon on-line in english ?

[Prawnik]

While I have little faith in "alternative medicine", all medicine at the time of St. Panteleimon, Luke, etc. would today be classified as "alternative".

Of course, at the time, there was no real standard medicine to be an alternative to. It's not like you needed a license to practice medicine in those days.

[Michael the Iconographer]

While I have little faith in "alternative medicine", all medicine at the time of St. Panteleimon, Luke, etc. would today be classified as "alternative".

Of course, at the time, there was no real standard medicine to be an alternative to.

But today there is a standard for medicine. I trust DO's because they have had medical school training, but I am not sure I trust chiropractors. And I certainly don't trust any other such healers.

[Prawnik]

But today there is a standard for medicine. I trust DO's because they have had medical school training, but I am not sure I trust chiropractors. And I certainly don't trust any other such healers.

My point is that saying that Sts. Luke or Cosmas practices "medicine" and not "alternative medicine" does not have much meaning. At the time, there was no such distinction. However, from what we know of ancient times, what was practiced was much closer to today's "alternative medicine" than anything found in a mainstream American or European clinic.

You can take that for what its worth. I don't go to chiropractors, herbalists, or whatever, either.

[Michael the Iconographer]

My point is that saying that Sts. Luke or Cosmas practices "medicine" and not "alternative medicine" does not have much meaning. At the time, there was no such distinction. However, from what we know of ancient times, what was practiced was much closer to today's "alternative medicine" than anything found in a mainstream American or European clinic.

You can take that for what its worth. I don't go to chiropractors, herbalists, or whatever, either.

I understand that what thye were practicing at the time was closer to alternative medicine, but the study of medicine has advanced greatly over the years to the point where physicians have a much better understanding of the body and pharmacology. So would you rather go to someone who has studied medicine for 11 years just to get their medical license, or someone who is unlicensed and thus you really aren't sure what they know or don't know?

[hungrytiger]

Thanks for the responses.

We talked some to the priest today. From our describition it to him, he seemed to say that this will probably be okay (he knows about the instructor that the doctor in charge got her degree from) but to keep my eyes open and perhaps ask them to explain better what they are including and how it's being used.

[MariaRegina]

Aria, back when I was in Science Research class we had a natural remedies assignment. Basically we had to culture bacteria on Petri Dishes (Serratia Marcescens a gram negative bacteria because it has a natural pink pigment so it is easier to see). We then had to research certain home remedies and pick two to test on the bacteria to see if they had antibacterial properties. My Partner and I picked Garlic and onion because garlic has alacin onion doesn't but they both have sulfur compounds (Sulfur is found in many antibiotics). So we crushed garlic and we crushed onion to extract the juice and then soaked circles cut from sterilized coffee filter and placed it on the petrii dishes. We also made a control using antibiotic disks (Pennecillin, Streptomycin, and 1 other who's name I can't remebmer). When the experiment was over we found that garlic had an antibacterial ring (a clear circle forms around th disk where bacteria are killed) comparable to that of the antibiotics. That was a pretty fun experiment.



shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Is Outrage! Great Russian Secret is now exposed.

That should put some US drug manufacturers and pharmacists out of business immediately.

Or the FDA will immediately put a ban on all garlic and onion imports and farmers so that people will have no natural alternative.

[Greg the byzantine]

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Is Outrage! Great Russian Secret is now exposed.

That should put some US drug manufacturers and pharmacists out of business immediately.

Or the FDA will immediately put a ban on all garlic and onion imports and farmers so that people will have no natural alternative.

:D I wont tell lif you don't ;)

[OnTheWay]

I don't see a problem with so called "eastern" medicine if it works on scientific prinicipals. However, the vast majority of it requires spiritual disciplines and practices that are not compatible with Christianity.

[MariaRegina]

Fingernail, face and tongue analysis was a part of all medicine - East and West until about 1950.
Now this analysis has been all but abandoned by western medicine, except by those who are trained in Chinese Medicine.

One of my elderly physicians (an old school MD) still uses it.

Stick out your tongue.

Oh, it's white.

You must be having a cold with mucus, right?

Now let me see your fingernails.

Hmmmm. You have white spots. I think you are a little low on Zinc. And that might be why you have a cold. So take some Zinc logenzes.

Actual monologue with him.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Fingernail, face and tongue analysis was a part of all medicine - East and West until about 1950.
Now this analysis has been all but abandoned by western medicine, except by those who are trained in Chinese Medicine.

One of my elderly physicians (an old school MD) still uses it.



Actual monologue with him.

I don't have a problem with DO's in how they tend to take into account how your muscles and other things effect your health. My own personal physician for years was a DO and she took very good care of me. But what I do have an issue with are people who have no medical training messing with your health.

[MariaRegina]

It is really too bad that the medical and drug industry control the health distribution in our country.

To be a medical doctor you must subscribe to distributing drugs for a living. If you don't want to prescribe drugs, then you are considered a quack.

Drugs are licensed and regulated precisely because they have dangerous side effects.

Not only that, all licensed medical doctors must be schooled in surgery and spend long hours as an intern with no breaks. Mistakes happen when interns are sleep deprived as they are.

So, I am against this medical-drug industry in the USA. Other countries like the European nations are more reasonable.
Frankly, I wouldn't mind living abroad.

I would rather take natural alternatives than deal with drugs that leave you in a stupor.

Remember when we die, we pray for a death where we will be lucid so that we can be prepared to meet Christ.

Lynette Hoppe, an Orthodox Missionary, is very close to death and they reduced her drugs to help her be more lucid.

[Michael the Iconographer]

It is really too bad that the medical and drug industry control the health distribution in our country.

To be a medical doctor you must subscribe to distributing drugs for a living. If you don't want to prescribe drugs, then you are considered a quack.

Drugs are licensed and regulated precisely because they have dangerous side effects.

Not only that, all licensed medical doctors must be schooled in surgery and spend long hours as an intern with no breaks. Mistakes happen when interns are sleep deprived as they are.

So, I am against this medical-drug industry in the USA. Other countries like the European nations are more reasonable.
Frankly, I wouldn't mind living abroad.

I would rather take natural alternatives than deal with drugs that leave you in a stupor.

Remember when we die, we pray for a death where we will be lucid so that we can be prepared to meet Christ.

Lynette Hoppe, an Orthodox Missionary, is very close to death and they reduced her drugs to help her be more lucid.

So you would rather have your health put in the hands of someone who doesn't understand medicine than in someone trained under the current system? The current system is not perfect, and yes the drug companies have a bit too much influence over what drugs doctors can administer. However, I must give medical doctors the credit they deserve. My asthma doctor took very aggressive care over the chronic asthma that I had when in high school, and that care didn't just include medication. It is due to the hard work which he pushed me to do that my lungs are so much stronger now and the asthma is that much less of a burden then it was when I was younger. When I was younger the asthma was chronic and very painful to me, and for the past 10 years it has been in complete control.

[MariaRegina]

You had a doctor that was preventative then.

Most doctors just treat the symptom and are too busy to give you preventative care.

I have had a lot of poor doctors who watched their watches and wanted you out of their office in 15 minutes ... nevermind the 1 hour wait to see them.

[Prawnik]

I understand that what thye were practicing at the time was closer to alternative medicine, but the study of medicine has advanced greatly over the years to the point where physicians have a much better understanding of the body and pharmacology. So would you rather go to someone who has studied medicine for 11 years just to get their medical license, or someone who is unlicensed and thus you really aren't sure what they know or don't know?

Read what I wrote. You keep addressing an argument that I am not trying to make.

I don't go to any practictioner of alternative medicine. I have very little faith in such medicine. Most is pseudo-science at best.

However, the argument that the church has made saints of ancient doctors and not of practitioners of alternative medicine, therefore, alternative medicine is bad is a non-starter.

[Akathist]

Do any of the ones I mentioned at first -- Traditional Chinese Medicine, Healing Touch, Mind Body Medicine, Energy Medicine, Ayurvedic Medicine -- sound like ones to avoid?

Some of these that you list such as "Energy Medicine" is based on theology of other faiths not Christian. Balancing chackras (spelling?) and so forth is not at all the same thing as using natural substances in place of drugs or knowing that deep muscle massage can be helpful for some ailments.

I go to a chiropractor when I can afford to. If I get sick with a cold or flu and I have a visit to the Chiropractor it goes away very very quickly. That is "alternative medicine" but it is not based on New Age Religion or Far Eastern Religions, etc. Taking Ionized or colloid Silver (spelling?) is based on science not superstition. So is any other natural substitute, so they would be acceptable.

When in doubt as always, ask your Priest.

[MariaRegina]

I had a priest who didn't even want me to take herbs because the local psychic store sold bonafide herbs (the kind you buy in a health food store).

Needless to say, I quickly changed confessors because I cannot take any artificial antibiotics manufactured by the drug cartel.

I depend solely on God and His natural remedies: herbals.

So I use capsicum (cayenne peppers) whenever I have a lot of mucus.

I use cranberries and buchu whenever I have a kidney infection.

And there is a whole bunch of other herbs that are much cheaper than drugs and they don't leave you in a stupor.

I remember taking Cipro once and the doctor didn't tell me to avoid driving or operating machinery. I had two automobile accidents where I drove the car into my rock wall because I wasn't thinking straight.

If a person is sick and is given drugs and told to go back to work, that is insane. If you are sick, you need to take a break and get rest.

The real problem is:
Drugs cover up your illness and allow you to work until you drop dead. Seriously.

I had walking pneumonia and the doctor prescribed Cipro for it and told me I had acute bronchitis. Basically, he didn't want me to freak out. So then I come down with double pneumonia with a 105 degree fever. Then they find out that the Cipro won't work because the bacteria has become resistant to it. Next they bring in Zythromax, which does save me. Upshot is, now I am allergic to Cipro and Zythromax.

The last time I had pneumonia, the doctor told me to stay home because of the MRSA in the hospital which is drug resistant. He told me that I would be safer at home taking garlic, colloidal silver, onion soup, capsicum, salads with bell pepper salads, Vitamin C and cranberry & Buchu. My priest agrees with me. :)

[Michael the Iconographer]

You had a doctor that was preventative then.

Most doctors just treat the symptom and are too busy to give you preventative care.

I have had a lot of poor doctors who watched their watches and wanted you out of their office in 15 minutes ... nevermind the 1 hour wait to see them.

The same argument is often used by evangelicals and other protestants for why they don't belong to the church: so and so had a bad exp with this doctor and thus they went off and formed their own way of doing things.

[OnTheWay]

My point is that saying that Sts. Luke or Cosmas practices "medicine" and not "alternative medicine" does not have much meaning. At the time, there was no such distinction. However, from what we know of ancient times, what was practiced was much closer to today's "alternative medicine" than anything found in a mainstream American or European clinic.

You can take that for what its worth. I don't go to chiropractors, herbalists, or whatever, either.

Actually, that's not really accurate. Roman medicine was highly advanced, with complicated surgical tools and proceedures that couldn't have been matched until the last century. Up to and including sterilizing medicial tools. In fact Roman hospitals looked much like modern hospitals.
Doctors like Galen were the first to understand that one had to treat the problem, not just sympthoms. As such I would much rather have had anicent Roman medicine than an 18th century doctor with leeches.
The difference really being that we understand drugs a lot better.

[Prawnik]

Actually, that's not really accurate. Roman medicine was highly advanced, with complicated surgical tools and proceedures that couldn't have been matched until the last century. Up to and including sterilizing medicial tools. In fact Roman hospitals looked much like modern hospitals.
Doctors like Galen were the first to understand that one had to treat the problem, not just sympthoms. As such I would much rather have had anicent Roman medicine than an 18th century doctor with leeches.
The difference really being that we understand drugs a lot better.

As surgeons, the best Roman doctors were not bad, and their thinking was generally rational rather than magical. However, ancient understanding of disease and physiology was weak at best (imbalance in the four humors as the cause of disease, for one instance), and much of ancient internal medicine relied on spells, potions, and magical thinking to effect cures.

That's why I likened Roman practice to some varieties of today's "alternative medicine". This is especially true of ancient popular medicine, as the average unwell chump had no hope of obtaining the services of a Galen but had to rely on other doctors, most not so well-trained. If wikipedia is to be believed, they used bloodletting in ancient Greece and Rome as well.