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Breaking Babylon

24th August 2006, 01:22 PM

Adammi

24th August 2006, 01:28 PM

1 John 2:1
Read the book of 1 John. John continually calls his readers his children. What would his readers call him?

Shubunkin

24th August 2006, 01:29 PM

As I am just an inquirer at this point, this is something I need to know as well. Thank you for asking this one. It would have come up sooner or later with me.

Shubunkin

24th August 2006, 01:32 PM

1 John 2:1
Read the book of 1 John. John continually calls his readers his children. What would his readers call him?

Good point, and I always called my earthly father, "my father" when referring to him. Called him "Daddy" to his face, of course.

Breaking Babylon

24th August 2006, 01:33 PM

I can understand that, but, what's the verse I provided pertaining to, then?

Adammi

24th August 2006, 01:36 PM

I can understand that, but, what's the verse I provided pertaining to, then?
I'm not sure, however, the Church gave us the Bible, can the Bible be in opposition the Church?

nutroll

24th August 2006, 01:45 PM

Hey guys. Me again. :wave:

I'd really like some help concerning this:

Matthew 23:9. And call none your father upon earth; for one is your father.

Can you help me understand this? I'm asking humbly, and only because I hope to learn from it. I'm sure some of you know that trying to break off from Protestantism isn't the easiest task, so... a little clarification would be highly appreciated.

Also, it's always been under my impression that no one will ever see Jesus again until He returns as told by the Parable of Wheat and Tares. Yet there's a Saint story, can't remember his name right off, which claims that he carried Jesus on his back unaware and washed His feet. Supposedly this holy site still exists in Egypt.

Thanks so much, guys. I come seeking truth, not for accusations or vain questioning. These are things I really need to understand.

The point of Matthew 23 is shown just a few verses later. Those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted. Jesus tells his disciples and the people that they should not call the pharisees "rabbi" "teacher" or "father." His contention is that the pharisees have exalted themselves above all others. They are not to be exalted. We acknowledge that we have a Father in heaven who is above all of our earthly fathers, whether they are our biological fathers, or our spiritual fathers. Our priests are called to humble themselves and to be the servant of all, and as such, they are exalted by our Father in heaven. It is not because they call themselves father or because of any earthly accomplishment that we call them father.

Breaking Babylon

24th August 2006, 01:49 PM

That makes perfect sense. Thanks a lot. :)

If anyone could tackle this Saint issue now, or shine some light on my possible misinterpretation, I'd be much obliged.

eoe

24th August 2006, 01:58 PM

Blake - If you would like to read a homily by St. John Chrysostom about Mat23 click HERE (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.LXIX.html) - it says just about the same thing that Nutroll mentioned about halfway down.

can the Bible be in opposition the Church?
No. Therefore, if it ever appears to be that way, then it is the interpretation that needs correction. Just as in this case, when you have a proiper understanding of what is really being said - the two norm and confirm each other. Tradition will confirm scripture and scripture will confirm Tradition.

That makes perfect sense. Thanks a lot. :)

If anyone could tackle this Saint issue now, or shine some light on my possible misinterpretation, I'd be much obliged.

Can you be more specific? Maybe consider starting a new thread at this point since it is a different subject?

Breaking Babylon

24th August 2006, 02:06 PM

Thanks for the link, John. :)

I'd rather discuss all the questions in one place, so I edited the title of the thread. Thanks in advance for your answers.

This is what I was referring to:

Also, it's always been under my impression that no one will ever see Jesus again until He returns as told by the Parable of Wheat and Tares. Yet there's a Saint story, can't remember his name right off, which claims that he carried Jesus on his back unaware and washed His feet. Supposedly this holy site still exists in Egypt.

icxn

24th August 2006, 02:08 PM

That makes perfect sense. Thanks a lot. :)

If anyone could tackle this Saint issue now, or shine some light on my possible misinterpretation, I'd be much obliged.
So what do you make of this passage?
Jn. 14:21 He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him."

gzt

24th August 2006, 02:09 PM

St. Paul saw Christ after the Ascension. St. John did as well in order to write the Apocalypse.

Breaking Babylon

24th August 2006, 02:12 PM

It's not my intention to come off as offensive if I have done so. As I said, I've only come by to find some answers. I've had a pretty legalistic RM outlook on things for some time now, and it's kind of hard to shake off the rough edges.

But your answers are really providing some insight and food for thought. Thank you all very much.

gzt

24th August 2006, 02:14 PM

Don't worry, you're doing fine.

eoe

24th August 2006, 02:14 PM

The story you are talking about is St. Christopher I think.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/31/Chris.png

The Eastern Catholic/Orthodox (Eastern and Oriental) Christopher

In contrast to the dramatic and miracle-laden stories popular among those Latin-rite Catholics who venerate St. Christopher, the story accepted among the Eastern Catholic/Orthodox is somewhat more prosaic (albeit still with fantastic elements).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/Saint_christopher_cynocephalus2.jpeg/180px-Saint_christopher_cynocephalus2.jpeg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Saint_christopher_cynocephalus2.jpeg) http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Saint_christopher_cynocephalus2.jpeg)
Saint Christopher is sometimes represented with the head of a dog

During the reign of the Emperor Decius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decius), a man named Reprebus (or Reprobus) was captured in combat against tribes to the west of Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt) and was assigned to the numerus Marmaritarum or "Unit of the Marmaritae", which suggests an otherwise-unidentified "Marmaritae" Berber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber) tribe of Cyrenaica. He was of enormous size and terrifying demeanor, being a cannibal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibal) with cynocephaly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynocephaly) (the head of a dog instead of a man), like all the Marmaritae. Traditional Orthodox iconography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icon) depicts him as literally dog-headed. Regardless, Reprebus accepted baptism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism) and began to preach the faith.
Eventually, the governor of Antioch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antioch) (or in some versions, the Emperor himself) decreed that Reprebus was to be executed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_%28legal%29) for his faith. He miraculously survived many attempts at execution, eventually permitting himself to be martyred (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyred) after converting multitudes. His body was then taken back to Alexandria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandria) by Peter of Attalia.

From goarch.com

------------------------------

Christopher the Martyr of Lycea
http://goarch.org/images/eImages/skete/christopher2.jpg

May 9
Apolytikion in the Fourth Tone
Thy Martyr, O Lord, in his courageous contest for Thee received the prize of the crowns of incorruption and life from Thee, our immortal God. For since he possessed Thy strength, he cast down the tyrants and wholly destroyed the demons' strengthless presumption. O Christ God, by his prayers, save our souls, since Thou art merciful.
Kontakion in the Fourth Tone
Thou who wast terrifying both in strength and in countenance, for thy Creator's sake thou didst surrender thyself willingly to them that sought thee; for thou didst persuade both them and the women that sought to arouse in thee the fire of lust, and they followed thee in the path of martyrdom. And in torments thou didst prove to be courageous. Wherefore, we have gained thee as our great protector, O great Christopher.
Reading:
Saint Christopher was at first named Reprobus. Seeing the Christians persecuted, he rebuked the tyrants for their cruelty. Soldiers were sent to bring him to appear before the ruler; but he converted them to Christ, and with them was baptized, receiving the name Christopher. After he appeared before the ruler, he was imprisoned and two harlots were sent to seduce him, but he converted them also, and encouraged them in their martyrdom. He was subjected to torments and finally beheaded in the days of Decius. Many marvellous and mythical things are said about him out of ignorance and superstition, one of which is that it is impossible for one to die suddenly from some unexpected cause on the day on which one looks at the Saint's icon. This is the origin of that proverb that is quoted in various quarters: "If on Christopher thou shouldst gaze, thou shalt safely wend life's ways." The etymology of his name, which means "Christ-bearer," has undoubtedly moved iconographers to depict him carrying the infant Jesus on his shoulders; it is completely erro-neous, however, to depict him, as some uninformed iconographers do, having the head of a dog, because of a statement in his life that he was dog-faced, by which is meant only that his countenance was exceedingly frightful to look upon.

Jacob4707

24th August 2006, 02:15 PM

1 John 2:1
Read the book of 1 John. John continually calls his readers his children. What would his readers call him?

He also addresses some of his readers as "Fathers" - 1 John 2:13-14

eoe

24th August 2006, 02:19 PM

I can attest that BlakeMichael is indeed a sincere inquirer. Maybe we can cut him a little slack. I know we have had a rash of debate posts but this is not one of them.

eoe

24th August 2006, 02:21 PM

He also addresses some of his readers as "Fathers" - 1 John 2:13-14
Excellent find Kat. That also leads right into death to the world as well.

(1 John 2:14) I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

(1 John 2:15) Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

(1 John 2:16) For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

(1 John 2:17) And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Breaking Babylon

24th August 2006, 02:23 PM

Thanks a lot, John. I'm sure that you guys have had your share of baited questions, but I assure you that these aren't.

Edit: Excellent verses, at that! This is getting good. EO is seeming more and more right.

icxn

24th August 2006, 02:26 PM

There's also this:

1 Cor. 4:15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Adammi

24th August 2006, 02:30 PM

Blake, something my Pentecostal grandfather has told me very often is that we have to weigh the scriptures. It may appear that the Bible contradicts itself, but we have to put it all together as one to find out what the real message is.
When we put what Jesus said about calling men father together with what Sts. Paul and John later said, we can much better understand what God meant.
Also, even though my grandfather didn't mean it like this, I think that his same philosophy of "weighing the scriptures" can be used when the Church and the Bible seemingly contradict.

eoe

24th August 2006, 02:46 PM

EO is seeming more and more right.
Mr. Punster......^_^

Another outstanding find ICXN

InnerPhyre

24th August 2006, 06:17 PM

There's also this:

I was going to quote this one, but you beat me to it. Twas the epistle reading at liturgy last Sunday :)

choirfiend

24th August 2006, 06:48 PM

That it was. I remember it striking me since I've seen all this hooey about calling priests Father lately.

rusmeister

24th August 2006, 10:56 PM

Ooh! Ooh! Mr. Kotter!
I have another great link!
http://www.protomartyr.org/father.html

St Christopher is also a patron saint for drivers (I have the icon card), I believe because part of his story had to do with traveling (converting Roman soldiers on the move). Has anyone seen a prayer for drivers in English? This icon card has a short one and an "extended version".
(oops! sorry for the hijack)

Orthosdoxa

26th August 2006, 12:11 AM

Prawnik

26th August 2006, 04:23 AM

There's also this:

The same question of calling a priest "Father" also bothered me during my conversion process.

It become much easier to understand the answer if one considers that the priest is an icon of Christ.

Breaking Babylon

26th August 2006, 03:41 PM

Hi friend, :wave:

Your questions seem quite sincere to me, and I'm glad you're getting great answers. I don't have much time to contribute as I expect to hear a hungry little boy howling for Mommy at any time, but just wanted to say welcome to TAW. I'm a convert from a Baptist background, and I can tell you there are answers to ALL these questions, and more. :)

LK

Thank you very much. It's very encouraging. :)

The same question of calling a priest "Father" also bothered me during my conversion process.

It become much easier to understand the answer if one considers that the priest is an icon of Christ.

It's also good to know I'm not the only one who's had these thoughts. I'd like to ask you guys, is it normal to be a little nervous?

Even though it seems right, it's also a little intimidating. It'd be an entirely new lifestyle for me.

MariaRegina

26th August 2006, 04:36 PM

Yes, it is exciting and a little intimidating.

It reminds me of Narnia when the children ask if the Lion (Aslan) is dangerous.

Prawnik

27th August 2006, 02:02 AM

Even though it seems right, it's also a little intimidating. It'd be an entirely new lifestyle for me.

This is correct. Orthodoxy is not something understood so much as lived. This is why a semi-literate peasant can be a much better Christian than a degreed theologian, even if the villager doesn't have the vocabulary to explain what he believes or why.

As someone who understands much better than he does, I am one to talk.