Be not conformed to this world--not clothing

[ZiSunka]

What does it mean to "be not conformed to this world" other than dressing modestly?

Or is conformity expressed only in our outer attire?

[Jehane]

The first thing God got onto me about with this verse was what I was putting in my mind. I'll read anything; if it's printed I'll read it. Absolutely no discretion whatsoever! Jam jar labels, adds on the train, most mags (I was drawing the line there somewhere) books, books & more books. Not good enough in God's eyes. Slowly He has been prying my eyes from the undiscriminated printed page to the sorts of things He prefers me to fill my mind with. I know how C.S. Lewis felt being dragged along kicking & screaming but what goes in to the mind comes out in our actions & neither should reflect worldly values.

[MrJim]

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Renewing of the mind is key here. Would include all aspects of daily living (clothing included) but it has to stem from a mind renewal and safe to say a heart renewal as well.

[Danfrey]

One area that tends to affect the Mennonite people is success. Far to often a good work ethic has become out of balance and you have Christian men trying to justify being workaholics.

Loving our enemies is another way of not being conformed to the world. How do I act with the person who just upset me? Far too often I don't want be around them or harbor a grudge, when what I should be doing is being a peacemaker.

How about TV? Do I enjoy watching things on the television that I would consider sinful if I did them myself? This is an area that I have to check myself on.

Would I be driving around in a new car if I could afford it rather than a car that is paid for? Do I use credit to buy things that I can't afford to pay cash for? Am I willing to go in debt to a bank so that I can buy a house? If I do so, what happens if God calls me to the missionary field?

[ZiSunka]

Far to often a good work ethic has become out of balance and you have Christian men trying to justify being workaholics.

And women. I have been a victim of that kind of thinking. It's probably my biggest issue--achieving the unachievable.

[ZiSunka]

How about TV? Do I enjoy watching things on the television that I would consider sinful if I did them myself? This is an area that I have to check myself on.

Another good one that I have to be more proactive about.

[Jehane]

[quote=Danfrey]

How about TV? Do I enjoy watching things on the television that I would consider sinful if I did them myself? This is an area that I have to check myself on.

I would have got rid of the thing years ago but dh wouldn't hear of it. I don't watch much but I admit everything I'm attracted to ends up having to be scrapped.

[ZiSunka]

So, judging from the volume of discussion in this thread and the one about clothes, it looks like we think that not conforming is largely about how we look as opposed to what we do.

I mean, even the non-clothing things we came up with are very shallow.

Is there more to being a nonconformist than G-rated TV shows and ankle-length dresses?

[Danfrey]

I don't know about the others on here, but many times when discussing the non-conformity issue, I am working on the details of daily life. Yes, we could spend days talking about the deeper spiritual issues of non being conformed to world, but far too often these types of discussions don't get around to how does this play out in my daily life. Of course all of the things we have discussed should come from a heart that desires to be more like christ and the indwelling of the holy spirit. I don't consider any of the things we have brought up as shallow.

As far as the emphasis on outward appearance, I think it boils down to the fact that we discuss the details of the things we don't agree on more than the details of the issues we do agree on. The discussion would die off pretty quick if it were, yep, yep , yep, I agree, yep.

[ZiSunka]

I don't know about the others on here, but many times when discussing the non-conformity issue, I am working on the details of daily life.

So let's do that. There's more to daily life than clothing and TV, isn't there?

And by shallow, I meant it's literal sense, not an indictment against anyone. Shallow means surface, and I think you have to agree that clothing and TV are surface manifestations of con-conformity, and there are much deeper manifestations that should be pursued as well.

[Jehane]

Yes, but I am finding this medium quite difficult to work in. I'm new to technology & trying to squash an arguement into a few words to fit in one of these little boxes & all my reference material (invariably) elsewhere just when I need it most is starting to make me feel quite a dill. Perhaps one reason the outward things get discussed so much is because it is the external evidence of what's been going on spiritually. Why on earth else would I trot from store to store looking for a nice modest shirt when I can buy a plunging neckline, tight & bare below the midriff straight off the rack at a cheaper price?

[MrJim]

Is there more to being a nonconformist than G-rated TV shows and ankle-length dresses?

I hope so, or we are a sorry lot:doh:

:preach:
What I think we need to look at is that we are not so much called to be nonconformists but rather transformists. The contest shouldn't be: How can I be unlike the "world" but rather how do I grow in this transformation by the renewing of the mind "...that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

Therein is the key.

[If Not For Grace]

Use Common Sense---This has nothing to do with on object like TV, Shoes, Electricity etc. but the content like a previous poster said
this verse was what I was putting in my mind.

Sin is popular in this world, if it feels good do it--this is what we are to be "not of" we do not take the easy feel good path.

One thing I would like to submit to all legalistic christians: If we would worry about what we should do(like feed the Hungary, visit those in prison, care for widows and orphans, love one another, etc.--we would not have much time to worry about what we should not.

[Danfrey]

Use Common Sense---This has nothing to do with on object like TV, Shoes, Electricity etc. but the content like a previous poster said


First of all, this comment makes it sound like anyone who concerns themselves with things like television or what they wear is an idiot. Please correct me if I am wrong.


One thing I would like to submit to all legalistic christians: If we would worry about what we should do(like feed the Hungry, visit those in prison, care for widows and orphans, love one another, etc.--we would not have much time to worry about what we should not.

May I ask what your definition of legalistic is? This is a word that I have seen way over used in our circles.

[ZiSunka]

One thing I would like to submit to all legalistic christians: If we would worry about what we should do(like feed the Hungary, visit those in prison, care for widows and orphans, love one another, etc.--we would not have much time to worry about what we should not.

I don't know, there has to be more to it than feeding the hungry and visiting those in prison. Even the unsaved do good deeds.

[Danfrey]

I don't know, I think the people in Hugary should be feeding us. They have great food. Yummm, paprika chicken and dumplings. Now that's good food!
That's not nice Walkin.

[ZiSunka]

Given that we can't put our finger on what non-conformance to the world means, how can we possibly do it and go around teaching disciples to do it?

We could make a laundry list of good deeds, or things we should or shouldn't wear or watch or do, but just following a proscribed set of behaviors doesn't seem to be able to stand the test of time.

[Danfrey]

Back to the subject at hand.

If we are not conformed to the world, what are we conformed to. Christ. We are too be conformed to the kingdom of God. We don't chase after those things that the world chases after, money, power, prestige. Ours it to be a humble life. We are to be spiritually minded and eternally focused. Do I live for myself, or do I live for others? One of the problems with a discussion like this is that it is very difficult and questionable to come on here and talk about all the things we do right. Wouldn't this be pride? Maybe it would be easier to talk about a given situation, how we acted or reacted and how we should have acted or reacted.

[ZiSunka]

Back to the subject at hand.

If we are not conformed to the world, what are we conformed to. Christ. We are too be conformed to the kingdom of God. We don't chase after those things that the world chases after, money, power, prestige. Ours it to be a humble life. We are to be spiritually minded and eternally focused. Do I live for myself, or do I live for others? One of the problems with a discussion like this is that it is very difficult and questionable to come on here and talk about all the things we do right. Wouldn't this be pride? Maybe it would be easier to talk about a given situation, how we acted or reacted and how we should have acted or reacted.

I don't know...if something can't be defined at least in a sketchy way, then practicing it becomes just another exercise in transactional analysis--what happened and how I reacted to it.

There's got to be a meaningful answer to the question. A meaningful definition of non-conformance to the world. It's not just a set of reactions, is it?

[MrJim]

I'm tellin' ya-yer looking at it from the wrong angle.

Nonconformity has a sense of reaction to it--define conformity and then do the opposite.

Transformation...transformation...

Main Entry: 1trans·form
Pronunciation: tran(t)s-'form
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French transformer, from Latin transformare, from trans- + formare to form, from forma form
transitive verb
1 a : to change in composition or structure b : to change the outward form or appearance of c : to change in character or condition : CONVERT (http://www.webster.com/dictionary/convert)
2 : to subject to mathematical transformation (http://www.webster.com/dictionary/transformation)
3 : to cause (a cell) to undergo genetic transformation (http://www.webster.com/dictionary/transformation)
intransitive verb : to become transformed (http://www.webster.com/dictionary/transformed) : CHANGE (http://www.webster.com/dictionary/change)

[Danfrey]

I think that I am thinking about things in a very practical way. Jesus said do this, so I do it. He said don't do that, so I don't do it. This is how I live my life. I don't do it trying to earn salvation or Jesus' love, but I do it because I love him.

It pleased my wife when I called her to let her know if I was going to come home late from work so I called her if I was going to be late. I knew that if I didn't call her she wasn't going to stop loving me, but I called her anyway.

I am rambling here, but often times it seems like Christians overcomplicate life.

[theAmishGirl]

I think our entire lifestyle should reflect this "change" within us. If we are still caught up on things such as beauty, material wealth, and money, we aren;t focusing on the right things: God, love, peace, truth, etc.

[ZiSunka]

I'm tellin' ya-yer looking at it from the wrong angle.

Nonconformity has a sense of reaction to it--define conformity and then do the opposite.

Transformation...transformation...

Main Entry: 1trans·form
Pronunciation: tran(t)s-'form
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French transformer, from Latin transformare, from trans- + formare to form, from forma form
transitive verb
1 a : to change in composition or structure b : to change the outward form or appearance of c : to change in character or condition : CONVERT (http://www.webster.com/dictionary/convert)
2 : to subject to mathematical transformation (http://www.webster.com/dictionary/transformation)
3 : to cause (a cell) to undergo genetic transformation (http://www.webster.com/dictionary/transformation)
intransitive verb : to become transformed (http://www.webster.com/dictionary/transformed) : CHANGE (http://www.webster.com/dictionary/change)

I didn't see reaction in that definition. :confused:

I see, to convert, to form across, to change character or condition. Putting on special clothing and doing good deeds doesn't accomplish anything, and reacting to what the world does by doing exactly the opposite does nothing to change our character or condition. Putting on Amish clothing doesn't convert a person to Amish. Putting on the opposite of whatever the world is doing doesn't transform a person.

There's a deeper transformation, a deeper character change, a deeper life in Christ that no one seems to be able or willing to talk about.

Transformation is not the opposite of conformity, it is a totally separate process. Transformation isn't a reaction to the world, it is a movement toward Christlikeness.

But how is that transformation working itself out in your heart and life? That is the question.

[Jehane]

In my heart? My concience is touchier than it used to be. If I even think about doing stuff I would once have done unthinkingly my concience gets up on its little soap box & reads me the riot act.

[MrJim]

When the novelty of marriage wore of I didn't run away. When the novelty of children wore off I didn't run away. When the novelty of working wore off I didn't run away.

I had a habit of running away from things. I put on false fronts and lived a fantasy life. Things never turned out the way I thought they would so I'd run away from it. I wouldn't commit to anything, but rather just do as much as I thought then drift off to something else. I was fairly involved with what are now called "White Nationalists" but particularly neo-nazis.

After I met Christ the transformation began. After the first few weeks I tried running away-I was going to commit suicide and just go to heaven and be done with it. But in retrospect God's angels were there to stay my hand, and I returned to those ministering to me.

My transformation continues to be an ongoing process. Sorry, no razzle dazzle, but it continues none the less. There is so much to be changed from, and that is part of this working of the Kingdom of God. And just when I think I'm hitting a stride then another shortcoming is shown, so I've learned that it is an ongoing process that is painful at times, and particularly memorable at times.

At any point in this that I thought it wasn't working, I'd have just quit. I have a looong history of it. But everyday I wake up hittin' the floor ready to take on another day. There are times where I feel I could return to my hateful racist ways. I check in on Stormfront forum on occasion for a dose of reality--to remind me what all that hate is about. Darkness makes light brighter.

Certainly there are people that can make these sort of "turnarounds" on their own. I have no answer except to say I give glory to God alone for this work.

[ZiSunka]

In my heart? My concience is touchier than it used to be. If I even think about doing stuff I would once have done unthinkingly my concience gets up on its little soap box & reads me the riot act.

Good! This is more along the lines I was asking about.

[ZiSunka]

When the novelty of marriage wore of I didn't run away. When the novelty of children wore off I didn't run away. When the novelty of working wore off I didn't run away.

I had a habit of running away from things. I put on false fronts and lived a fantasy life. Things never turned out the way I thought they would so I'd run away from it. I wouldn't commit to anything, but rather just do as much as I thought then drift off to something else. I was fairly involved with what are now called "White Nationalists" but particularly neo-nazis.

After I met Christ the transformation began. After the first few weeks I tried running away-I was going to commit suicide and just go to heaven and be done with it. But in retrospect God's angels were there to stay my hand, and I returned to those ministering to me.

My transformation continues to be an ongoing process. Sorry, no razzle dazzle, but it continues none the less. There is so much to be changed from, and that is part of this working of the Kingdom of God. And just when I think I'm hitting a stride then another shortcoming is shown, so I've learned that it is an ongoing process that is painful at times, and particularly memorable at times.

At any point in this that I thought it wasn't working, I'd have just quit. I have a looong history of it. But everyday I wake up hittin' the floor ready to take on another day. There are times where I feel I could return to my hateful racist ways. I check in on Stormfront forum on occasion for a dose of reality--to remind me what all that hate is about. Darkness makes light brighter.

Certainly there are people that can make these sort of "turnarounds" on their own. I have no answer except to say I give glory to God alone for this work.

Excellent! This and Jehane's post are exactly the kinds of things I want to read about!

This is transformation that leads to non-conformity. It's deep and heart-borne.

[Jehane]

But Walkin, this is what I was talkin' about in my earlier post about readin'. I was a very greedy little bookworm & God really got on my case about it. Firstly about what I was reading, then about how I was letting that affect my mind & thus my life. I have been completely redirected & as my mind has been 'renewed' there have been outward changes in my life. My heart's motivation has changed too. eg I started HS because I hated the school system. I continue because God has convicted me that this is the best way to raise god-fearing, God-honouring children who have learnt to walk closely with Him. We don't always get it right & I am still prone to the occassional fit of rebellion when selfishness gets the better of me & I think how much easier my life would be if the kids weren't underfoot 24/7 but then I am reminded of how much God has blessed our obedience - & that I did ask him for this!

As we mature I think we learn to put our hand to the plough & not turn back, wether that is in the matter of dress, or worship or study - or our heart's attitudes. It may be trite but it's still true - I am a work in progress.

[ZiSunka]

But Walkin, this is what I was talkin' about in my earlier post about readin'. I was a very greedy little bookworm & God really got on my case about it. Firstly about what I was reading, then about how I was letting that affect my mind & thus my life. I have been completely redirected & as my mind has been 'renewed' there have been outward changes in my life. My heart's motivation has changed too. eg I started HS because I hated the school system. I continue because God has convicted me that this is the best way to raise god-fearing, God-honouring children who have learnt to walk closely with Him. We don't always get it right & I am still prone to the occassional fit of rebellion when selfishness gets the better of me & I think how much easier my life would be if the kids weren't underfoot 24/7 but then I am reminded of how much God has blessed our obedience - & that I did ask him for this!

As we mature I think we learn to put our hand to the plough & not turn back, wether that is in the matter of dress, or worship or study - or our heart's attitudes. It may be trite but it's still true - I am a work in progress.

Yes. All those things are indicators of your desire to walk in his path, to do what is his revealed will. You aren't being saved because of those things, of course, but growing and maturing in him is a manifestation of your salvation. Being transformed/non-conformed is a journey that takes us from wherever God picked us up to the place where we are like him.

We don't dress plain because we think we have to to prove we are holy, we dress modestly because we become convicted that immodest dressing is not the most godly way to dress and we act on that conviction. We oppose war not because we want to prove to the world that we are holy, but because we know war is satan's playground and we act on that conviction. We oppose abortion not because it is the opposite of what the worldly people think, but because every human life is made in the image of God.

Our outward actions are symbols of our inward convictions. We do the things we do, not because the world hates them, but because God loves them. We don't pick up whatever is opposite of worldly ways, but we act as the Holy Spirit has shown us are holy ways, through the Bible, through the wisdom of the elders and teachers, through the actions of Christ.

When we were talking about what to wear and what to watch, we were getting it all backwards. We were focussing on the surface features of faith in Christ and neglecting the fact that those things come from the transformarion of our minds.

[Danfrey]

When we were talking about what to wear and what to watch, we were getting it all backwards. We were focussing on the surface features of faith in Christ and neglecting the fact that those things come from the transformarion of our minds.

You are making assumptions with this statement. You are assuming you know the intent behind someones actions. Why were we discussing modesty to begin with. Maybe it was because we like to live their lives with a nice code of rules, or maybe it is because there has been a transformation inside that drives them to follow the leading of the holy spirit in the way we dress. It reminds me of the person that looks at the Amish and says they are legalistic without ever speaking to an Amish person. We specifically were discussing what it meant to not be conformed to the world in the way we dressed. There is nothing wrong with discussing the inward change that has driven the outward change, but let's not try claim that it has been neglected. The discussion was on practical application with the idea that those participating in the discussion had sound spiritual reasons for their decisions. I often hear this type of argument used to avoid discussing practical application.

[Jehane]

While theology is important I admit to being much more concerned with how to live as God what's me to in the day to day, hour to hour, minute by minute application. I see no point in doing something just to fit in, or because that's what 'we' do. I need to see how the biblical principal applys to my life & practical ways of applying it - if I've managed to make sense to anyone. I'm getting to the tail end of my day & that always makes my posts a little scattier.

[theAmishGirl]

You are making assumptions with this statement. You are assuming you know the intent behind someones actions. Why were we discussing modesty to begin with. Maybe it was because we like to live their lives with a nice code of rules, or maybe it is because there has been a transformation inside that drives them to follow the leading of the holy spirit in the way we dress. It reminds me of the person that looks at the Amish and says they are legalistic without ever speaking to an Amish person. We specifically were discussing what it meant to not be conformed to the world in the way we dressed. There is nothing wrong with discussing the inward change that has driven the outward change, but let's not try claim that it has been neglected. The discussion was on practical application with the idea that those participating in the discussion had sound spiritual reasons for their decisions. I often hear this type of argument used to avoid discussing practical application.

I agree Dan. I have been convicted abou the way I live due to a transformation on the inside caused by my growth as a christian.

[ZiSunka]

You are making assumptions with this statement. You are assuming you know the intent behind someones actions. Why were we discussing modesty to begin with. Maybe it was because we like to live their lives with a nice code of rules, or maybe it is because there has been a transformation inside that drives them to follow the leading of the holy spirit in the way we dress. It reminds me of the person that looks at the Amish and says they are legalistic without ever speaking to an Amish person. We specifically were discussing what it meant to not be conformed to the world in the way we dressed. There is nothing wrong with discussing the inward change that has driven the outward change, but let's not try claim that it has been neglected. The discussion was on practical application with the idea that those participating in the discussion had sound spiritual reasons for their decisions. I often hear this type of argument used to avoid discussing practical application.

Do you always have to be negative when responding to my posts?

I wish you would just ignore me rather than constantly be negative toward every post I make. I have more than enough dressing down. If you really think I don't make any contribution to this forum, that's fine. I wish you would think about nevermind, you'll just dress me down again. :(

Forget it. I'm outta here. You win.

[MrJim]

While theology is important I admit to being much more concerned with how to live as God what's me to in the day to day, hour to hour, minute by minute application.

This is the essence of Kingdom Christian teaching. It's been said by others that "church" became theology driven when it needs to be relational.

Many fear this will lead to dangerous ground so specific doctrines are adhered to more so than adhering to Christ. They are not always the same thing.

[Jehane]

Many fear this will lead to dangerous ground so specific doctrines are adhered to more so than adhering to Christ. They are not always the same thing.[/quote]

As always, a balance needs to be found. Reading all the posts here I realize (again:sigh: ) how very ignorant I am of theology but I don't find theology helpful when my 11 yr old is having a spac attack or wants to wear the latest unacceptable fashion. What is helpful is the simple injunction - Be ye kind to one another! Or the admonishment in Ephesians to not prokoke our children.

Theology has led certain parts of the church down some very dangerous paths with teachings creeping in than are subtly or blatantly incorrect. Only this past Christmas my girls & I attended a worship service with my mother that had both my girls coming to me quietly afterwards (so as not to offend my mother whose church it was) querying the teaching. Luckily they have been well taught, caught the error for themselves & we were able to quietly discuss it.

[MrJim]

As always, a balance needs to be found. Reading all the posts here I realize (again:sigh: ) how very ignorant I am of theology but I don't find theology helpful when my 11 yr old is having a spac attack or wants to wear the latest unacceptable fashion. What is helpful is the simple injunction - Be ye kind to one another! Or the admonishment in Ephesians to not prokoke our children.

Theology has led certain parts of the church down some very dangerous paths with teachings creeping in than are subtly or blatantly incorrect. Only this past Christmas my girls & I attended a worship service with my mother that had both my girls coming to me quietly afterwards (so as not to offend my mother whose church it was) querying the teaching. Luckily they have been well taught, caught the error for themselves & we were able to quietly discuss it.
"Theology" is somewhat overrated. I've held to so many different "theologies" that I'm somewhat tired of it. And while I've gleaned stuff from all, none in and of themselves drew me any closer to Christ than actually doing something. Creeds and such are fine but are only words in the end. Life in the Spirit is where the faith is supposed to be.

[vespasia]

I think that it has a lot to do with our character before God.

I think it is also about considering the longer term effects of our choices. The world does not like people to do that.

Yes there are many external pressures pushing in us yelling for attention to the point we can often feel overwhelmed....I know working 16 hour days turns me into some kind of crazy cranky wound up not nice to be around maniac.
I therefore chose to not work such silly hours whenever possible and if I have to that the next day I work the bare minimum to keep work ticking over.
It is far too easy to end up doing more and more and kid yourself you HAVE to do it or the whole place will collapse if you do not.

In the UK TV is becoming more banal so I consider if something is worth watching or if there are more pleasurable and relaxing things to go and do with my time instead, like read a book or paint or garden or invite someone over for a meal or...I dislike TV it has become the glowing idol in the corner of the room that dominates and distorts families.
It is meant to be a tool not the reason for living.

Most buy at the nearest large supermarket whilst I buy local produce direct from the farm, fair-trade from abroad and organic from small suppliers with sound ethical businesses.
How I spend the money I have is going to affect the small producer struggling to make ends meet, the third world producer who has to choose should they buy food or medicine or pay that huge debt off a little more.

I bank with an ethical bank that does NOT deal in any shares or profits from arms or third world exploitation.
How I chose to invest what I have has ramifications for others in the world and I am supposed to be a responsible steward for God.

I choose to dress modestly (for an old Goth) because I do not think it would be right to entice another to sin by what I wear. Take it from me I used to.

War is horrific, I have seen the destruction that the troubles caused here. It demeans all who rush into it and harms and destroys lives. I pray for God's peace to be known in areas torn by strife.

All that I choose to do seen by those who know me is influenced by the inner changes within. I know I am not the person I was when I came to Christ, I am not the person I was even last year.

I think I have said this in another part of this forum but what we treasure owns our hearts.

[MadFingerPainter]

Often I see wrongs taking place all around me. I don't join in on the activities but I often feel guilty for not acting to stop it. The reason I don't is because if I do...I would be unemployed. I do my best for the Lord each day to pray about these things and to do what I can to help make things better. We are in a very unloving world anymore but that doesn't mean we have to stop loving. And I refuse to.

[Jehane]

Oh, gosh! You two ladies brought up so many great points! I think many people who are pro-war forget how damaging it is for those who participate. We have many U.S & ANZAC Vietnam vets on the island & they are all rattling round like loose cannons now, damaged & unpredictable though they wouldn't agree. They think they're ok.

And unkindness is rife. My youngest is quite musical so she is involved with the primary school band & choir (activities otherwise unavailable to her) & she has struggled to understand the kids attitudes - if she practises she gets teased for being a 'try-hard' (her mother insists she practises - I'm paying for the lessons!), she gets teased for having a nice voice, for paying attention & following instructions, about the length of her hair, & being a HSer. I queried the niggling going on on one field trip to be told the kids were just having fun. Is it fun when a child has been teased to the point they lash out, or is in tears ?- 2 things I saw as a result of all the niggling going on.:sorry: I get a bit wild on this issue, as invariably someone gets to pick up the pieces & try to put some shattered kid back together. Mine has learnt to disengage & move away but it's been a hairy ride as she is an emotional, violatile child whose first instinct is to lash out - behaviour I consider so unacceptable whatever the cause it was 'control yourself or lose the privelege.' She has chosen to control herself. I can't imagine what sort of adults these kids will be.

[MadFingerPainter]

I get teased as an adult for doing what I'm told. But that is how I was raised. Just because everyone else isn't following the rules doesn't mean I can't. And going to upper management who doesn't follow the rules is of little or no use whatsoever.