Aw gee, who didn't see this coming?

[MrJim]

Corps to Recall Marines in Individual Ready Reserve to Active Duty

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,209859,00.html

I'll let y'all know if I get the letter calling me back to the Marine Corps...it's be your sign that the end really is near when they call back a tired old guy like me who's been out for over 20 years:doh:

I know the gov't gotta do what its gotta do, but I particularly hate hearing about dead Marines...and now they need more.:sigh:

[Danfrey]

I caught that on my news headlines right before jumping on CF tonight. I think your ready reserve days are far past old timer. :) It is sad though when guys who put in their time are called back to put in more. So much for an all volunteer force. I know that I am complaining about the government which I am not supposed to do, but I hate to hear things like this. It falls in the same category as "Stop Loss" in my book.

[ZiSunka]

They are only recalling those marines who didn't completely fulfill the term of enlistment. Like the guys who signed up for 8 years but only served 6, then went to the Ready Reserves.

[Danfrey]

Let me explain how this works. When you enlist in the military for a 4 year tour. You are actually signing up for 8 years. 4 years active duty and 4 years ready reserve. As a recruiter, it wasn't exactly something we advertised. Also, you don't get any compensation for the ready reserve. It is just a way for Uncle Sam to a have a pool of people to call back in a pinch.

[MrJim]

Yeah, when I signed up (this was '82) they weren't really sure the volunteer thing was going to work. They had a 3 yr active/3 yr inactive reserve contract that I signed up on. Anytime during those other 3 years I could be called--but the reality is that the gov't could call whenever they like I suppose.

[ZiSunka]

Let me explain how this works. When you enlist in the military for a 4 year tour. You are actually signing up for 8 years. 4 years active duty and 4 years ready reserve. As a recruiter, it wasn't exactly something we advertised. Also, you don't get any compensation for the ready reserve. It is just a way for Uncle Sam to a have a pool of people to call back in a pinch.

But you also don't serve unless you are needed. Now they are needed. It's part of the contract, so I don't see what the big deal is.

It's not like 20 years later they are involuntarily recalling men who no longer have any connection with the military.

It shouldn't come as a surprise. After all, if you are signing up to "serve your country" you have to fulfill all the conditions of that enlistment or be a lawbreaker, or worst of all, a person who reaps what they can from the military, but when they are called on to actually go to combat, suddenly doesn't want to go.

[MrJim]

But you also don't serve unless you are needed. Now they are needed. It's part of the contract, so I don't see what the big deal is.

The big deal is that the war isn't going well so they need more bodies

It's not like 20 years later they are involuntarily recalling men who no longer have any connection with the military.

yet

It shouldn't come as a surprise. After all, if you are signing up to "serve your country" you have to fulfill all the conditions of that enlistment or be a lawbreaker, or worst of all, a person who reaps what they can from the military, but when they are called on to actually go to combat, suddenly doesn't want to go.

Yeah, if they don't come to know Christ and understand the nonviolence He teaches, then yeah, it's part of the contract that they signed up for. They fail to realize that when they swear that oath the gov't sorta owns them at that point. Not quite like selling your soul, but it's not like they were forced or anything.

[Danfrey]

There are probably alot of people who have never worn a uniform that are sitting back and saying the same thing. It is easy to say "it is in your contract" when it isn't your husband or son being sent to Iraq. The reality is that there are many who will have already served in Iraq called back to be sent again. I wouldn't have such a problem with this except I have been through the recruiter training and know how this stuff is sold. I would say that most enlistees don't even realize what the ready reserve is.

[ZiSunka]

The big deal is that the war isn't going well so they need more bodies

Danfrey says that's the god-given role of the government, to wage war, and it stands to reason if it isn't going well and they aren't getting enough new enlistments, they are going to follow through with their legal right to recall marines they have set aside for just such a need.


Yeah, if they don't come to know Christ and understand the nonviolence He teaches, then yeah, it's part of the contract that they signed up for. They fail to realize that when they swear that oath the gov't sorta owns them at that point. Not quite like selling your soul, but it's not like they were forced or anything.

The men that come to conviction based on their faith that war is wrong have a legal right to request CO status. And since Dan says the government has an obligation to wage war when it benefits the nation and they have done that, they are going to use the full extent of their legal rights to maintain that war.

As for failing to realize that when they swear an oath that they will be required to complete the terms of the contract--caveat emptor. No Christian should be swearing any oath at all. By choosing to do so, they obligate themselves to fulfill the terms of that oath, whether they were aware of the terms or not. You can't go buy a car and stop making payments because you don't feel called to do that anymore, or because you have a conviction that borrowing money is immoral. When you sign, you live with the terms of the contract you signed.

[KellyLeigh]

Being the age I am, I know a lot of people who are in Iraq fighting now. My dad was in the airforce when I was younger. I don't know if he fulfilled his time or what, but I sure hope they don't call him in. He's 46 so i don't think they would.

[ZiSunka]

Being the age I am, I know a lot of people who are in Iraq fighting now. My dad was in the airforce when I was younger. I don't know if he fulfilled his time or what, but I sure hope they don't call him in. He's 46 so i don't think they would.

They aren't even talking about calling back anyone who has been off active duty for more than 4 years and still has time on their enlistment, so I'm thinking your dad is safe.:)

[MrJim]

Danfrey says that's the god-given role of the government, to wage war, and it stands to reason if it isn't going well and they aren't getting enough new enlistments, they are going to follow through with their legal right to recall marines they have set aside for just such a need.

It is what gov'ts do


The men that come to conviction based on their faith that war is wrong have a legal right to request CO status. And since Dan says the government has an obligation to wage war when it benefits the nation and they have done that, they are going to use the full extent of their legal rights to maintain that war.

It is what gov'ts do

As for failing to realize that when they swear an oath that they will be required to complete the terms of the contract--caveat emptor. No Christian should be swearing any oath at all. By choosing to do so, they obligate themselves to fulfill the terms of that oath, whether they were aware of the terms or not. You can't go buy a car and stop making payments because you don't feel called to do that anymore, or because you have a conviction that borrowing money is immoral. When you sign, you live with the terms of the contract you signed.

Except as you noted the CO status--and even if there wasn't a CO clause then if they come to a true conviction regarding nonviolence then they would simply have to submit to the punishment, which during wartime could result in prison or worse. You live with the terms of the contract or the consequences of breaking the contract.

[ZiSunka]

It is what gov'ts do

It is what gov'ts do

So government is merely behaving like government and there's nothing much remarkable about it.


Except as you noted the CO status--and even if there wasn't a CO clause then if they come to a true conviction regarding nonviolence then they would simply have to submit to the punishment, which during wartime could result in prison or worse. You live with the terms of the contract or the consequences of breaking the contract.

Absolutely. Being punished is better than being called to serve in the military and contributing to the deaths of other people.

[Danfrey]

And since Dan says the government has an obligation to wage war when it benefits the nation and they have done that, they are going to use the full extent of their legal rights to maintain that war.


Actually, I support the Government's right to wage war, not obligation.

Yes, they have a right to call back the ready reserve, but I don't have to be happy about it. :sigh:

[ZiSunka]

Actually, I support the Government's right to wage war, not obligation.

Yes, they have a right to call back the ready reserve, but I don't have to be happy about it. :sigh:

Okay then. :)

I'm curious, though, about why Christians should have any opinion at all on this because Christians should stay completely out of everything that has to do with government.

[MrJim]

Okay then. :)

I'm curious, though, about why Christians should have any opinion at all on this because Christians should stay completely out of everything that has to do with government.

Fallen world, fallen people, misguided people, lost people. Same sorta thing when ya see starvin' kids in 3d world countries and hear about guys beatin' up their wives & girlfriends and seein' dogs run over in the street.

We don't involve ourselves in gov't but involve ourselves in lives regardless...

[Danfrey]

Okay then. :)

I'm curious, though, about why Christians should have any opinion at all on this because Christians should stay completely out of everything that has to do with government.
You must have missed the comment were I mentioned that I shouldn't be complaining about it. You are absolutely right that as a Christian I have not right to complain about it, but as veterans, Menno and I are both going to have strong feelings about things like this. I don't think it is a problem in an enviornment like this to discuss it, but you will not find me petitioning to change it or protesting against it at the white house.

[Danfrey]

You must have missed the comment were I mentioned that I shouldn't be complaining about it. You are absolutely right that as a Christian I have not right to complain about it, but as veterans, Menno and I are both going to have strong feelings about things like this. I don't think it is a problem in an enviornment like this to discuss it, but you will not find me petitioning to change it or protesting against it at the white house.

Hey WalkIn, doen't expect to see the statement in bold very often. ^_^

[catlover]

Yeah, when I signed up (this was '82) they weren't really sure the volunteer thing was going to work. They had a 3 yr active/3 yr inactive reserve contract that I signed up on. Anytime during those other 3 years I could be called--but the reality is that the gov't could call whenever they like I suppose.


You are not in the ready reserve, so i pray they won't call you. it's been an awfully long time for you!

[ZiSunka]

You must have missed the comment were I mentioned that I shouldn't be complaining about it. You are absolutely right that as a Christian I have not right to complain about it, but as veterans, Menno and I are both going to have strong feelings about things like this. I don't think it is a problem in an enviornment like this to discuss it, but you will not find me petitioning to change it or protesting against it at the white house.

Hm...so you compartmentalize yourself into "as a Christian" and "as an ex-military"? I would think that "as a Christian" should overcome your desire to think like a military person.

[MrJim]

You are not in the ready reserve, so i pray they won't call you. it's been an awfully long time for you!

Oh so I'm old eh?:P

[ZiSunka]

Fallen world, fallen people, misguided people, lost people. Same sorta thing when ya see starvin' kids in 3d world countries and hear about guys beatin' up their wives & girlfriends and seein' dogs run over in the street.

We don't involve ourselves in gov't but involve ourselves in lives regardless...

But you guys aren't fallen, lost, starving people. You are children of God who have firmly stated that Christians should have nothing to do with the government. It seems dysintergrated to say that Christians should be disengaged from government affairs, and then complain about the what the government is doing. :cool:

[MrJim]

But you guys aren't fallen, lost, starving people. You are children of God who have firmly stated that Christians should have nothing to do with the government. It seems dysintergrated to say that Christians should be disengaged from government affairs, and then complain about the what the government is doing. :cool:

dysintergrated :scratch:is that one of them fancy psychological words?

Yeah, maybe it is...still workin' at achieving some maturity here:sorry:

[catlover]

Oh so I'm old eh?:P


LOL. Maybe it's a good time to be "old". ^_^

I think the draft will be next. :sigh:

[ZiSunka]

dysintergrated :scratch:is that one of them fancy psychological words?

Yeah, maybe it is...still workin' at achieving some maturity here:sorry:

I appreciate your honesty and your willingness to confess. :)

[Danfrey]

Hm...so you compartmentalize yourself into "as a Christian" and "as an ex-military"? I would think that "as a Christian" should overcome your desire to think like a military person.
Actually, I don't compartmentalize the two. I am a Christian and I am a veteran. If I had it all to do over again, I would not have joined the military, but I won't deny that it has played a part in forming who I am . I believe God has used it at times to provide opportunities that others would not have.

As a Christian, I should overcome the desire to do a lot of things that I struggle with every day. I would be a fool to say that I never deal with temptation. As we get back to the subject that we started on, my concern is for men and families that are affected by this decision. Just as I am concerned about those who are dying daily in this war. I don't see a problem with feeling for them. But, just as the hypothetical situation of "a gun to your family members head" I can be concerned and feel for those affected without violating my views of non-resistance. I don't have to agree with a government decision to submit to it.

[Danfrey]

LOL. Maybe it's a good time to be "old". ^_^

I think the draft will be next. :sigh:
I was sharing the view that we aren't too far off from a draft with my son over dinner. We were having problems making our number of enlistees before the war, I can only imagine what it is like now. Here's praying for a quick end to the war.

[ZiSunka]

my concern is for men and families that are affected by this decision.

And women. Women are in combat, too.

So what are you going to do with your concern. Jesus said it isn't enough to feel concern, you have to put your concern into action ("If you find someone who is cold and hungry, don't tell them, 'go and be filled and warm....") When he saw hungry people, he fed them.

When you see families who have someone going off to war, what are you going to do for them?

[Danfrey]

And women. Women are in combat, too.

So what are you going to do with your concern. Jesus said it isn't enough to feel concern, you have to put your concern into action ("If you find someone who is cold and hungry, don't tell them, 'go and be filled and warm....") When he saw hungry people, he fed them.

When you see families who have someone going off to war, what are you going to do for them?
I will pray for peace and continue to share God's word for those I come in contact with.

[Jehane]

What I won't do is what was done to our Viet., vets when they came home - & once I would have, all in the name of peace. I don't think you get to have easy choices when you are trying to be holy in a fallen world but just in the trying I think a difference is made. If our choices aren't popular choices there's a good chance they are Godly choices - even if as believers we disagree on some issues. I don't begin to understand the hows, let alone the whys, but I believe there are very Godly people in the military who serve God faithfully though there is no way they & I could agree on each others choices. Sometimes the spirit leads in very unexpected ways.

[ZiSunka]

I will pray for peace and continue to share God's word for those I come in contact with.

That's a good beginning.

[ZiSunka]

If our choices aren't popular choices there's a good chance they are Godly choices

Like the choices made by that one Christian group that requires 14 year old girls drop out of school to marry 45 year old men, who then divorce them when they turn 18, those are godly choices because they are unpopular with the rest of society?

[ZiSunka]

I believe there are very Godly people in the military who serve God faithfully though there is no way they & I could agree on each others choices. Sometimes the spirit leads in very unexpected ways.

I think the two are mutually exclusive. You can't love your enemies while killing them or participating in an organization whose principle change-making device is killing. When Jesus said to love our enemies, I think he meant we should start with not killing them.

The Spirit may work in unexpected ways, but he will never work in ways that contradict the teachings of Jesus Christ, so I don't think I can see how a godly person can be led by the Spirit to participate in the military.

[Jehane]

I think the two are mutually exclusive. You can't love your enemies while killing them or participating in an organization whose principle change-making device is killing. When Jesus said to love our enemies, I think he meant we should start with not killing them.
The old testament has some fairly gory contradictions to this.

The Spirit may work in unexpected ways, but he will never work in ways that contradict the teachings of Jesus Christ, so I don't think I can see how a godly person can be led by the Spirit to participate in the military.

Funny that, there are plenty of Chaplains who say differently.

Just so we're clear I will say that personally I'm convicted that killing/violence is always wrong & I find being a Christian & in the army a contradiction but I find I am invariably in the minority on this one.

[Jehane]

Like the choices made by that one Christian group that requires 14 year old girls drop out of school to marry 45 year old men, who then divorce them when they turn 18, those are godly choices because they are unpopular with the rest of society?

I'm not sure which 'Christian' group you're refering to here but this doesn't sound like choice to me nor the exercising of these girls' free will. It sounds remarkably like coercion. Nor is it scriptual so far as I can see from what you've posted.

[Danfrey]

Funny that, there are plenty of Chaplains who say differently.

Just so we're clear I will say that personally I'm convicted that killing/violence is always wrong & I find being a Christian & in the army a contradiction but I find I am invariably in the minority on this one.
You are not the minority on here Jehane. I think most of us would agree that one cannot serve in the military and be a christian. I look at my military service in the same light as my drug use or alcoholism. It was part of my sinful past. They all play a part in my personality, but I am glad they are behind me.

[Jehane]

Thanks Danfrey. I did notice that; one reason i like being on here despite Walkin's curved balls. :hug: for Walkin; life would be duller without your input.