Disappointed in Billy Graham...I think.

[Ginny]

As a Christian, I believe that the only way to receive eternal life is through Jesus Christ. If one does not accept Jesus Christ and his death on the cross for our sins, well, that just goes without saying. :)

Anyhow, the following quote (emphasis mine) surprised me. I understand that no one can truly know the heart of an individual, but as Christians, we believe the Bible to be infallible...if one proclaims to not believe in Jesus, to NOT worship Jesus, to NOT have a personal relationship with Jesus....how is it that they will spend eternal life with God when they refuse to accept Him according to the word of God?

Maybe you see something else in this quote....

Here is the LINK. (http://www.worldviewweekend.com/secure/cwnetwork/article.php?ArticleID=963)

I realize that this is an opinion editorial, but nonetheless, the writer provides scripture.... Now there is a small segment in there about people who have never heard the name of Jesus on a smally remote island somewhere going to Heaven...I agree with that part; afterall, there is scripture provided for that...But this post is based on the other parts of the article.

When asked whether he believes heaven will be closed to good Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus or secular people, though, Graham says: "Those are decisions only the Lord will make. It would be foolish for me to speculate on who will be there and who won't ... I don't want to speculate about all that. I believe the love of God is absolute. He said he gave his son for the whole world, and I think he loves everybody regardless of what label they have." Such an ecumenical spirit may upset some Christian hard-liners, but in Graham's view, only God knows who is going to be saved: "As an evangelist for more than six decades, Mr. Graham has faithfully proclaimed the Bible's Gospel message that Jesus is the only way to Heaven," says Graham spokesman A. Larry Ross. "However, salvation is the work of Almighty God, and only he knows what is in each human heart."

God gives us the Word of God to know on our hearts that if we accept Jesus we will spend eternity with Him. In the provided quote, Billy Graham appears to be stating that Jesus is not the only way to eternal life.(?) Why would God tell us what we need to do....if in reality it is not so? :)

[mlqurgw]

I have had difficulty for many years with Billy Graham on many levels. Christ told His diciples to beware when all men speak well of you.

[RajunCajun86]

some would say that in his old age billy graham has become more "cavalier" or liberal in his theology and in his role in politics

i agree with you...ONE way to THE Father through Jesus Christ
this is the ONLY Biblical view
anything else is universalism and wrong

[arunma]

Now there is a small segment in there about people who have never heard the name of Jesus on a smally remote island somewhere going to Heaven...I agree with that part; afterall, there is scripture provided for that.

I'd like to discuss the island issue, if that's OK. If I might ask, what Scripture is there to suggest that people who do not learn about the Gospel of Christ can be saved by virtue of their ignorance? Not that I mean to start a heated debate...

[£amb]

What's funny is that when the same question in other parts of this forum, you'll get a very similar answer. It's almost like people are uncomfortable to stand up and say, yes Jesus is the only way to God. They avoid confrontation by sugar-coating their answer to appease everyone. But there are times that we have to admit that we truly do not know the other's persons heart. Only God does know our hearts and minds.

:)

[tulc]

Billy Graham is cool. He is also correct in what he said. :)
tulc(not arguing, just figure Billy deserves our respect and support) ;)

[aReformedPatriot]

Arunma, Jesus is the only way to heaven. Yes, God is testified enough in nature so as to give man no excuse before God, but it is not enough revelation on it's own to lead one to salvation.

[Ginny]

Well, tulc, if someone (anyone) calls themselves a Christian and abides by the Bible testifying everything in it to be true...I would highly doubt they would feel there is another way to heaven besides through Jesus Christ.

In all honestly, I feel his rather weak, appeasing, and clouded response may lead someone to believe that Jesus Christ is the NOT the only way to receive eternal life.

I don't support someone because they are a household name. I support those that uphold the Word of God. And the Word of God...it does not declare another way to Heaven besides through Jesus Christ. Is this the Baptist forum?

:)

Edit toadd: After reading my response I wanted to clarify a few things. I have always seen Billy Graham on a high pedestal. I just feel disappointed that his answer was watered down. I would have loved to hear him say "Jesus is the only way to receive eternal life"..instead he appears as if he does not know who will and will not receive eternal life...I would have expected a more bold and definite answer than the one given. He has the resources to say who will inherit eternal life. NOw, I do agree that we do not know everyone's hearts...only they do and only Christ does...but that was not the question Billy was given...The person gave examples...those examples do not include Jesus Christ...;) I want to avoid sounding abrupt at all costs. I just ...expected more. **shrug**

[tulc]

Well, tulc, if someone (anyone) calls themselves a Christian and abides by the Bible testifying everything in it to be true...I would highly doubt they would feel there is another way to heaven besides through Jesus Christ.

In all honestly, I feel his rather weak, appeasing, and clouded response may lead someone to believe that Jesus Christ is the NOT the only way to receive eternal life.

I don't support someone because they are a household name. I support those that uphold the Word of God. And the Word of God...it does not declare another way to Heaven besides through Jesus Christ. Is this the Baptist forum?

I understand. The thing is he said it was up to God, and I honestly don't have a problem with that. I respect Billy because he's walked a very thin line for a very long time. :)
tulc(anyway, thanks for your post!) ;)

[Ginny]

Tulc, I have a question to ask you about your post...where you said he said "it was up to God".

Well, if we already know what God says happens to those that do not accept Jesus....shouldn't we be able to speak confidently in that Word..without shrugging and having a "I-guess-it-is-up-to-Him" belief(?)

I cannot confidently throw up my arms in the air second-guessing what I think salvation means to God when he has already told us in His Word.... :)

Thanks, Tulc.

[aReformedPatriot]

Billy Grahm has gotten a bit universalistic in his old age stepping into the bounds of heresy. He is also openly eccumenical insisting that whatever branch of Christianity one wishes to go into is ok because one is as good as another. Ack.

[tulc]

He is also openly eccumenical insisting that whatever branch of Christianity one wishes to go into is ok because one is as good as another. Ack.

...but...they are. :sorry:
tulc(just a thought) :)

[catch21wide]

I love Billy Graham. To me he has been one of the best preachers of the Gospel in the last century. I believe that it is between a person and God on whether they are going to Heaven. The person makes the decision to go to Heaven and God will welcome him with open arms.Rev. Graham has always preached that Jesus is the only way. It doesn't matter what type of religion or denomination you are, just as long as you proclaim Jesus Christ as your saviour and Lord and walk in His likeness. I just hope and pray God allows Rev. Graham to preach at least one more crusade.

[RichardT]

Billy Graham is an ecumenical False Prophet of the last days
http://www.erwm.com/BillyGraham1.htm

[tulc]

Billy Graham is an ecumenical False Prophet of the last days

...or not. :)
tulc(just because you don't agree with him doesn't make him wrong) ;)

[arunma]

Arunma, Jesus is the only way to heaven. Yes, God is testified enough in nature so as to give man no excuse before God, but it is not enough revelation on it's own to lead one to salvation.

I agree that it is not possible to derive the Gospel from the natural world. I just meant to say that based on the Scriptures, I don't think that a person will be saved on account of the fact that he never heard the Gospel.

But whatever we think of Billy Graham's recent comments, let's remember that this man has done more for the sake of Christ than most of us ever will. He has preached the Gospel tirelessly, and in a spirit of love. For this he deserves our respect as a fellow Christian.

Billy Graham is an ecumenical False Prophet of the last days

Richard, please remember that it is not "cool" to label people as apostates and blasphemers simply because they do not believe as you do. Nor is it the will of God for us to do this. While there is a time for us to point out error (cases in point: Mormonism, homosexuality, etc.), this sort of behavior is not to consume the bulk of our time. If the only thing that others hear from your mouth is condemnation, then where is the good news?

[RichardT]

I agree that it is not possible to derive the Gospel from the natural world. I just meant to say that based on the Scriptures, I don't think that a person will be saved on account of the fact that he never heard the Gospel.

But whatever we think of Billy Graham's recent comments, let's remember that this man has done more for the sake of Christ than most of us ever will. He has preached the Gospel tirelessly, and in a spirit of love. For this he deserves our respect as a fellow Christian.



Richard, please remember that it is not "cool" to label people as apostates and blasphemers simply because they do not believe as you do. Nor is it the will of God for us to do this. While there is a time for us to point out error (cases in point: Mormonism, homosexuality, etc.), this sort of behavior is not to consume the bulk of our time. If the only thing that others hear from your mouth is condemnation, then where is the good news?
Richard, please remember that it is not "cool" to label people as apostates and blasphemers simply because they do not believe as you do. Nor is it the will of God for us to do this. While there is a time for us to point out error (cases in point: Mormonism, homosexuality, etc.), this sort of behavior is not to consume the bulk of our time. If the only thing that others hear from your mouth is condemnation, then where is the good news?

idk, i'm just mad that I had to quit playing my game and stop listening to music...

[Pepperoni]

Billy Graham knows very well that what he said is a bunch of hooey. And if he doesn't, then he might want to take out that Bible and blow the dust off the cover and have a look at what's inside, because the Bible doesn't even remotely say what he's claiming. Clearly he has become more concerned with pleasing men than pleasing God. He's wussing out. In refusing to take a stand, he has rendered himself completely ineffective.

[RaginCajun88]

some would say that in his old age billy graham has become more "cavalier" or liberal in his theology and in his role in politics

i agree with you...ONE way to THE Father through Jesus Christ
this is the ONLY Biblical view
anything else is universalism and wrongyep

[Abbadon]

Christ is the only way, but He's the judge, not us. Again, while I believe it's Christ that's the way, God's in charge.

Yes, God is testified enough in nature so as to give man no excuse before God, but it is not enough revelation on it's own to lead one to salvation.

So, you're in a pit that's 20 feet deep and your legs are broken. I put down 15 feet of rope so that there's rope which you to climb up if you could stand. Do I have every right to say "that's enough rope, it's your fault you can't get out the pit."...?

Suppose they realized God's existance, and realized that they're entirely at God's mercy, and that God, being loving, would try to save us?

[Pepperoni]

He is also openly eccumenical insisting that whatever branch of Christianity one wishes to go into is ok because one is as good as another. Ack.

...but...they are. :sorry:
tulc(just a thought) :)
Says who?

[Abbadon]

Says John 3:16.

[tulc]

Says who?

LOL! Well I just did. :)
tulc(not sure what the problem is) :sorry:

[aReformedPatriot]

Christ is the only way, but He's the judge, not us. Again, while I believe it's Christ that's the way, God's in charge.

So what your saying is that God arbitraily changes soteriology to accomodate man?

So, you're in a pit that's 20 feet deep and your legs are broken. I put down 15 feet of rope so that there's rope which you to climb up if you could stand. Do I have every right to say "that's enough rope, it's your fault you can't get out the pit."...?

Suppose they realized God's existance, and realized that they're entirely at God's mercy, and that God, being loving, would try to save us?

It is a colorful but insuffcient illustration by which to base a doctrinal conclusion on. In having this discussion, I think it is imperative that we highlight the purpose of general revealtion (GR) as opposed to special revelation (SR). Let us begin with GR:

Paul unequivally states that man, though fallen, has clearly percieved God's eternal power and divine nature in creation from the very first day he trod this earth (Romans 1:20; Psalm 19:1-4). So then, via GR man knows that God exists and is without an excuse to say that "I had no idea there was a creator." The evidence is boldly placed infront of his very eyes. While this may be a good starting place in evangelism, it in no way communicates the essentials of the Gospel. Paul also argues that man's very nature will be restless in search of something to fill the void of God (Acts 17:26-28). Modern anthropologists almost unanimously find that humans beings are inherently religious. This too however only creates evidence of a creator and is insufficient for salvation.

If you say that God is unjust to dangle this evidence and this evidence alone before their eyes while God says that man will have no excuse, are you not essentially calling God a liar? Otherwise man would find excuse with God. Likewise if GR is the only thing needed for salvation, then you remove the need for special revelation, that is Jesus Christ through the word of God. GR proves the existence of an orderly God, but fails to show the need for a savior. Special Revelation on the other hand dictates that the cross was absolutely necessary and that one must confess and believe in Christ for their redemption and it is by God's grace through which this occurs. SR dictates that salvation is based on grace alone through faith alone. If GR is a proper vehicle of salvation you create a dichotomy in the Gospel. You create a works based form of salvation based on personal ignorance and this is unacceptable. Or one makes it permissible to engage in idolatry through other religions. This was not proper for the gentiles of old, nor is it proper now.

You also presuppose that for God to be just he must make salvation available to all. He does not. Man is already condemned. Ephesians 2 declares him to be invariably a child of wrath by nature. Thus deserving of condemnation. GR just further exposes that their condemnation is just and that man will be without excuse before God. I am repeating myself on this point, but this is the revealed purpose of GR and cannot be stressed enough. If by God's grace, he wishes to save a man who has never heard the gospel, it will be by some special revelation wherein he will hear the Gospel because that is how God has ordained salvation; that is by faith in Christ.

In conclusion, God never tries to save us. He either does or he does not. He cannot fail. By arguing that salvation is possible through this mode you create several problems that cannot be resolved.

[Kristi1]

Billy Graham is getting older, I know he is wise...

But, as we age we can forget.

After all we all have Opinions, But, God Always has His Final Say in Every Matter we say or do!

[mlqurgw]

Billy Graham hasn't changed. I used to have some quotes around here somwhere in which he says pretty much the same thing except it was many years ago. He has always been soft on the Gospel. More than that he has always preached decisionism salvation which is very akin to easy believeism. I have never thought much of him for these and other reasons.

[Joykins]

The only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ.

Jesus = God.

So, yeah, it's up to God. We don't save ourselves after all.

[DeaconDean]

Billy Graham is a Presbyterian, so it shouldn't seem strange that he would sometimes irratate the Baptists. Check out Montreat College, he founded it, it has an extension campus in Charlotte N.C. Whether or not you agree with what the man says, you really do have to admire his zeal for the Lord.

My two cents worth.

Till all are one.

[arunma]

Billy Graham is a Presbyterian, so it shouldn't seem strange that he would sometimes irratate the Baptists. Check out Montreat College, he founded it, it has an extension campus in Charlotte N.C. Whether or not you agree with what the man says, you really do have to admire his zeal for the Lord.

My two cents worth.

Till all are one.

He's a Presbyterian? I did not know that. Wouldn't this mean that he's a believer in Reformed theology?

[DeaconDean]

He's a Presbyterian? I did not know that. Wouldn't this mean that he's a believer in Reformed theology?

I'm not sure. But I do know that Billy Graham is a member of the Presbyterian Church (USA). You know, the denomination which wanted recently to change the trinity from Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to Mother, Child, and womb. Now whether he supported this or not I do not know, but I will say that I do admire his integrity and zeal.

[arunma]

I'm not sure. But I do know that Billy Graham is a member of the Presbyterian Church (USA). You know, the denomination which wanted recently to change the trinity from Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to Mother, Child, and womb. Now whether he supported this or not I do not know, but I will say that I do admire his integrity and zeal.

Oh, the PCUSA. The guys over at Semper Reformanda aren't too fond of these people, since they are theologically quite liberal.

Regarding Billy Graham, I think we're on the same page as usual. I don't agree with many of his beliefs, but I do applaud the fervor with which he has preached the Gospel.

[mlqurgw]

He's a Presbyterian? I did not know that. Wouldn't this mean that he's a believer in Reformed theology?I won't comment on whether he is Presbyterian or not but I do remember reading somewhere that he rejected Reformed theology many years ago. His whole decisionism preaching is clear enough to show he is not even close to reformed. Billy Graham is whatever works to make Billy Graham look good. His so called zeal has made him quite a bit of money and fame. Again if I recall corectly no one has ever been able to pin him down in his theology because he doesn't really have one.

[trinityisunity]

I am sure we all know John 14:6, "I am the way and the truth and the life. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME."(NIV)

That about sums it up!

So if you are a buddist, hindu or muslim, etc this verse says alot about where you will spend eternity.

Jesus is not one way among many but the only way!!!

[Imblessed]

So what your saying is that God arbitraily changes soteriology to accomodate man?



It is a colorful but insuffcient illustration by which to base a doctrinal conclusion on. In having this discussion, I think it is imperative that we highlight the purpose of general revealtion (GR) as opposed to special revelation (SR). Let us begin with GR:

Paul unequivally states that man, though fallen, has clearly percieved God's eternal power and divine nature in creation from the very first day he trod this earth (Romans 1:20; Psalm 19:1-4). So then, via GR man knows that God exists and is without an excuse to say that "I had no idea there was a creator." The evidence is boldly placed infront of his very eyes. While this may be a good starting place in evangelism, it in no way communicates the essentials of the Gospel. Paul also argues that man's very nature will be restless in search of something to fill the void of God (Acts 17:26-28). Modern anthropologists almost unanimously find that humans beings are inherently religious. This too however only creates evidence of a creator and is insufficient for salvation.

If you say that God is unjust to dangle this evidence and this evidence alone before their eyes while God says that man will have no excuse, are you not essentially calling God a liar? Otherwise man would find excuse with God. Likewise if GR is the only thing needed for salvation, then you remove the need for special revelation, that is Jesus Christ through the word of God. GR proves the existence of an orderly God, but fails to show the need for a savior. Special Revelation on the other hand dictates that the cross was absolutely necessary and that one must confess and believe in Christ for their redemption and it is by God's grace through which this occurs. SR dictates that salvation is based on grace alone through faith alone. If GR is a proper vehicle of salvation you create a dichotomy in the Gospel. You create a works based form of salvation based on personal ignorance and this is unacceptable. Or one makes it permissible to engage in idolatry through other religions. This was not proper for the gentiles of old, nor is it proper now.

You also presuppose that for God to be just he must make salvation available to all. He does not. Man is already condemned. Ephesians 2 declares him to be invariably a child of wrath by nature. Thus deserving of condemnation. GR just further exposes that their condemnation is just and that man will be without excuse before God. I am repeating myself on this point, but this is the revealed purpose of GR and cannot be stressed enough. If by God's grace, he wishes to save a man who has never heard the gospel, it will be by some special revelation wherein he will hear the Gospel because that is how God has ordained salvation; that is by faith in Christ.

In conclusion, God never tries to save us. He either does or he does not. He cannot fail. By arguing that salvation is possible through this mode you create several problems that cannot be resolved.

:preach: preach it brother! :thumbsup:

I really try not to quote a whole page like this, but I wanted to get it on this page just in case someone hasn't read it yet----because it needs to be read!

[Imblessed]

I'm not a huge fan of Billy Graham myself. I'd take him over quite a few other TV evangelists...but I think he's far to 'lukewarm' in his views. As someone pointed out, it's hard to pin down his real beliefs, and I think that is a bit dangerous.

However, he's one of the few big-name evangelists that hasn't fallen into some type of great sin......which says a lot!

I'd tend to agree with the OP about the quote. It can be mis-understood and he really shouldn't be sitting the fence in that way. It's disappointing every time I see a big-name evangelist skirt the issue when asked up front "Is Jesus the ONLY way to heaven?" There is only one answer. "YES"

[Joykins]

I think that by saying Jesus is the only way to God as if this required a particular formula of theological beliefs, is a way of approaching Jesus's statement that presumes that Jesus is in some way more separated from God than he in fact is. Jesus is God (the son) and is talking about access to God (the father). This is in part a deity claim, and it is God saying, you can't get TO me except THROUGH me. Which means we are saved (by which I mean access to a relationship with God) by the agency of Jesus (God). There is not only one way of salvation-- the Bible clearly outlines that a person can be saved; there are many ways--we argue about whether, for example, repentance is required first, some Christians believe baptism is necessary, we wonder whether this or that passage is more vital, sometimes we forget that Jesus's statement to those who asked how to be saved was "Get rid of the distractions, love God and each other, and come, FOLLOW ME."

***

Anyway, saying that Jesus is the only way to God does not eliminate the possibility that there are ways of salvation that we do not understand, because they were not specifically given to us--just that Jesus controls them. The gospel of John says that all judgment is given to the Son, and He will recognize his own whether we recognize them or not.

In this diagram, Jesus is the part of God that provides access to the Father. Note that there are some human paths that go towards God and others that go away from God. There are some that travel paths we understand and others that travel paths we don't understand.

[RajunCajun86]

Anyway, saying that Jesus is the only way to God does not eliminate the possibility that there are ways of salvation that we do not understand, because they were not specifically given to us:eek:

[RichardT]

The only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ.

Jesus = God.

So, yeah, it's up to God. We don't save ourselves after all.

I don't believe in calvinism, though I do believe in once saved always saved, please don't get these two mixed up..

[Joykins]

I don't believe in calvinism, though I do believe in once saved always saved, please don't get these two mixed up..

No danger of that ;)

[mlqurgw]

I think that by saying Jesus is the only way to God as if this required a particular formula of theological beliefs, is a way of approaching Jesus's statement that presumes that Jesus is in some way more separated from God than he in fact is. Jesus is God (the son) and is talking about access to God (the father). This is in part a deity claim, and it is God saying, you can't get TO me except THROUGH me. Which means we are saved (by which I mean access to a relationship with God) by the agency of Jesus (God). There is not only one way of salvation-- the Bible clearly outlines that a person can be saved; there are many ways--we argue about whether, for example, repentance is required first, some Christians believe baptism is necessary, we wonder whether this or that passage is more vital, sometimes we forget that Jesus's statement to those who asked how to be saved was "Get rid of the distractions, love God and each other, and come, FOLLOW ME."

***

Anyway, saying that Jesus is the only way to God does not eliminate the possibility that there are ways of salvation that we do not understand, because they were not specifically given to us--just that Jesus controls them. The gospel of John says that all judgment is given to the Son, and He will recognize his own whether we recognize them or not.

In this diagram, Jesus is the part of God that provides access to the Father. Note that there are some human paths that go towards God and others that go away from God. There are some that travel paths we understand and others that travel paths we don't understand.God has made it very plain in His Word that you do not come to Him in whatever way you want. He first preached the Gospel promise of a redeemer to Adam and Eve right after the fall. Gen. 3:15 and has revealed that it is only through His death that we are saved. Read Rom. 10:9-21

[Joykins]

God has made it very plain in His Word that you do not come to Him in whatever way you want. He first preached the Gospel promise of a redeemer to Adam and Eve right after the fall. Gen. 3:15 and has revealed that it is only through His death that we are saved. Read Rom. 10:9-21

Romans 2:12-16

[Ginny]

are we really debating on a BAPTIST forum how one is saved other than through Jesus Christ? :)

LOL

[mlqurgw]

Romans 2:12-16I am confused. What is your reason in quoting Rom. 2? It supports what I have said.

[Pepperoni]

Says John 3:16.
I'm familiar with John 3:16. Not sure what version you have but mine does NOT say "one religion/faith is just as good as another and as long as you believe in something, it's all good."

[Pepperoni]

are we really debating on a BAPTIST forum how one is saved other than through Jesus Christ? :)

LOL

Ha!! Apparently.

Bizarre, huh?

[Pepperoni]

This was so good it deserves to be said again:

I am sure we all know John 14:6, "I am the way and the truth and the life. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME."(NIV)

That about sums it up!

So if you are a buddist, hindu or muslim, etc this verse says alot about where you will spend eternity.

Jesus is not one way among many but the only way!!!

[RajunCajun86]

God has made it very plain in His Word that you do not come to Him in whatever way you want. He first preached the Gospel promise of a redeemer to Adam and Eve right after the fall. Gen. 3:15 and has revealed that it is only through His death that we are saved. Read Rom. 10:9-21

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED ."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD , WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD ."
19 But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says, "I WILL MAKE YOU JEALOUS BY THAT WHICH IS NOT A NATION, BY A NATION WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WILL I ANGER YOU."
20 And Isaiah is very bold and says, "I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME, I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME."
21 But as for Israel He says, "ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE."
Romans 10:9-21
i know the underlined isn't the topic right now but it deserves to be noted

[catch21wide]

Billy Graham is a Presbyterian, so it shouldn't seem strange that he would sometimes irratate the Baptists. Check out Montreat College, he founded it, it has an extension campus in Charlotte N.C. Whether or not you agree with what the man says, you really do have to admire his zeal for the Lord.

My two cents worth.

Till all are one.

I know for a fact that Billy Graham is an ordained Baptist minister and that he is a member of a Baptist church in North Carolina. I would like to offer everyone of you something that I watched last night. It was a documentary of Billy Graham that was produced by Bill Gaither. The title is Billy Graham: God's Ambassador. He is the first christian minister that was allowed to preach within communist countries. I didn't know that until I watched the documentary. God had/has a purpose for Rev. Graham and one of the purposes was to help bring Jesus Christ to communist countries.

[ZiSunka]

A few months ago I found an older magazine that had an article in which Robert Schuller interviewed Billy Graham.

Graham stated that he thinks hindus and buddhists and muslims are also saved by faith, even though there faith is in a different god(s). He said (and I startled by this so I saved it), "Those people, when they are calling on the name of their [g]od, they are really calling on Jesus Christ whether they know it or not. Christ is the only true God, so anyone who calls upon or worships any [g]od is worshipping Christ. It doesn't matter what name you call him by, whether Buddha or Krishna or Allah, all are the same man, this one Jesus Christ. There is a wideness in God's mercy that allows them to be saved by their faith. It is up to God to decide who is saved."

[ZiSunka]

He is the first christian minister that was allowed to preach within communist countries. I didn't know that until I watched the documentary.

The first AMERICAN minister. My European cousins who lived through communism assured me that they continued to go to house churches despite the ban on the belief in God. Christianity was not dead before glasnost, it was just hidden.

[RajunCajun86]

^ :o (cough cough)
yikes
is there anyway to reference that article online?
(not that i don't believe you, i would like to read the rest of it too)

[ZiSunka]

^ :o (cough cough)
yikes
is there anyway to reference that article online?
(not that i don't believe you, i would like to read the rest of it too)

I don't know. The magazine is from 1998. I don't know if they were putting them online back then.

[Joykins]

are we really debating on a BAPTIST forum how one is saved other than through Jesus Christ? :)

LOL

No.

[Joykins]

I am confused. What is your reason in quoting Rom. 2? It supports what I have said.
God holds people accountable for what they know about.

[mlqurgw]

God holds people accountable for what they know about.I certainly don't want to misunderstand you or put words in yor mouth so could you possibly explain to a dummy like myself what you mean? What do you think christ was saying in John 17:3

Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

[Ginny]

Graham stated that he thinks hindus and buddhists and muslims are also saved by faith, even though there faith is in a different god(s). He said (and I startled by this so I saved it), "Those people, when they are calling on the name of their [g]od, they are really calling on Jesus Christ whether they know it or not. Christ is the only true God, so anyone who calls upon or worships any [g]od is worshipping Christ. It doesn't matter what name you call him by, whether Buddha or Krishna or Allah, all are the same man, this one Jesus Christ. There is a wideness in God's mercy that allows them to be saved by their faith. It is up to God to decide who is saved."

:eek: Oh....my...goodness.

Just...WOW.

That doesn't even make sense!!!! Jesus was sacrificed for us and THAT is the payment for our sins!!! It MUST be recognized to be saved!!! There is not recognition or payment for our sins through buddhists, muslims, etc.

I wish you had a link for that. :)

[ZiSunka]

:eek: Oh....my...goodness.

Just...WOW.

That doesn't even make sense!!!! Jesus was sacrificed for us and THAT is the payment for our sins!!! It MUST be recognized to be saved!!! There is not recognition or payment for our sins through buddhists, muslims, etc.

I wish you had a link for that. :)

I'll try to scan the article and upload it.

It's from a mag called, The Christian Reader, Fall 1998, if that helps any.

[Ginny]

Here is the actual article....in the OP Igave an opinion piece. :)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14204483/site/newsweek/page/6/


One think that I read that I would like to comment on...

When asked whether he believes heaven will be closed to good Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus or secular people, though, Graham says: "Those are decisions only the Lord will make. It would be foolish for me to speculate on who will be there and who won't ... I don't want to speculate about all that. I believe the love of God is absolute. He said he gave his son for the whole world, and I think he loves everybody regardless of what label they have."

To me, atheism could be considered parallel to a religion that does not recognize Jesus Christ, b/c according to my faith and to the Word if you cannot recognize Him...then you have no salvation. So with that said...what does it matter if they are "good" as stated in the article? Don't we all know that being "good" alone does not get us into heaven?

[edb19]

I won't comment on whether he is Presbyterian or not but I do remember reading somewhere that he rejected Reformed theology many years ago. His whole decisionism preaching is clear enough to show he is not even close to reformed. Billy Graham is whatever works to make Billy Graham look good. His so called zeal has made him quite a bit of money and fame. Again if I recall corectly no one has ever been able to pin him down in his theology because he doesn't really have one.

I've read his autobiography. He was raised in the Presbyterian church, however he was ordained SBC. I believe he attended Wheaton College in Illinois, which (at least back in the day when I was in college) is pretty conservative theologically.

I also know that he believes Charles Finney to be one of the greatest evangilists ever and I understand that a picture of Finney is one of the first things you see when walking into his headquarters. Not being a big fan of Finney (aside from his abolitionist views) that distresses me. The world doesn't need "excitements," the world needs Christ and Him crucified.

I attended a Billy Graham Crusade in the old municipal stadium in Cleveland, Ohio when I was in high school. He packed the place (at the time I believe it was the largest football stadium in the country). I remember being very impressed - especially by the numbers walking down the aisles at the end. As I've gained maturity I have to wonder - who follows up with these folks, who makes sure they're getting fed, who guides them as they grow in spiritual maturity. Of the millions who've said the sinner's prayer at one of his crusades - how many are truly regenerate?

I don't want to beat up on Pastor Graham, I believe that he's probably done a lot of good over the years, but I also think he's responsible for some very poor theology. Like many of us, his heart may be in the right place - but sometimes that just isn't enough.

[ZiSunka]

I attended a Billy Graham Crusade in the old municipal stadium in Cleveland, Ohio when I was in high school. He packed the place (at the time I believe it was the largest football stadium in the country). I remember being very impressed - especially by the numbers walking down the aisles at the end. As I've gained maturity I have to wonder - who follows up with these folks, who makes sure they're getting fed, who guides them as they grow in spiritual maturity. Of the millions who've said the sinner's prayer at one of his crusades - how many are truly regenerate?

Hmm, must have been a different Cleveland crusade than the one I went to. The one in 1994, his highest attendance was 8,900 per night, and the stadium held 88,000. Of the people who went down to the field, only 15% were making first time commitments to Christ, the rest indicated that they were already saved (according to the report BGEA issued to the shareholders after the event) and were looking for referrals to local churches or they were interested in finding out more about being involved with BGEA. The small group I counselled (I was a trained counsellor for BGEA in those days) consisted of two young girls about 13 years of age, and their aunt and they indicated that they had gotten saved at camp three weeks before and wanted to come down to the field because they heard there were free Bibles. The aunt asked for an autographed copy of Day-by-Day, a devotional by Billy Graham. When I said we weren't giving out books, just NTs, they left.

A year later, BGEA did a survey of the people who submitted cards indicating that they had gotten saved during the crusade and about 3% of the 3000 first-time confessions of faith were still active in church and still considered themselves active Christians. The other 97% either no longer participated in Christianity or felt they had fullfilled their obligations and didn't have to do anything else (I'm paraphrasing obviously). But 97% didn't continue in the faith within one year of the event.

Were you there the night they had to pass the buckets a second time because not enough money had been collected on the first pass?

[tulc]

actually it kind of sounds like what CS Lewis taught. :sorry:
tulc(in "The Last Battle") :)

[DawnTillery]

I heard Rod Parsley speak, about a month or so ago and he said Accepting Jesus + Nothing.
I didnt understand it at first, kind of confused me, but it meant that Accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior and that was the only way.
Anything else that we were to do on our walk, we would be led to do ..

[mlqurgw]

I've read his autobiography. He was raised in the Presbyterian church, however he was ordained SBC. I believe he attended Wheaton College in Illinois, which (at least back in the day when I was in college) is pretty conservative theologically.

I also know that he believes Charles Finney to be one of the greatest evangilists ever and I understand that a picture of Finney is one of the first things you see when walking into his headquarters. Not being a big fan of Finney (aside from his abolitionist views) that distresses me. The world doesn't need "excitements," the world needs Christ and Him crucified.

I attended a Billy Graham Crusade in the old municipal stadium in Cleveland, Ohio when I was in high school. He packed the place (at the time I believe it was the largest football stadium in the country). I remember being very impressed - especially by the numbers walking down the aisles at the end. As I've gained maturity I have to wonder - who follows up with these folks, who makes sure they're getting fed, who guides them as they grow in spiritual maturity. Of the millions who've said the sinner's prayer at one of his crusades - how many are truly regenerate?

I don't want to beat up on Pastor Graham, I believe that he's probably done a lot of good over the years, but I also think he's responsible for some very poor theology. Like many of us, his heart may be in the right place - but sometimes that just isn't enough.I can understand your reluctance to speak against a man held in such high regard but I do not have that reluctance. I will say that I would hate to be Billy Graham and have to stand before God and give an answer for all the souls he has deceived.

[Joykins]

I certainly don't want to misunderstand you or put words in yor mouth so could you possibly explain to a dummy like myself what you mean? What do you think christ was saying in John 17:3

Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


Eternal life is knowing God, which is dispensed by Jesus.

[edb19]

The one in 1994, his highest attendance was 8,900 per night, and the stadium held 88,000.

You attended a crusade ~22 years after me.

[ZiSunka]

You attended a crusade ~22 years after me.

Ah! that explains the differences! :)

Sorry. :sorry:

You are right, though, in wondering what happens to the people who go down to the field at his crusades. the BGEA has been trying for 40 years to figure out how to keep the people in the faith. I think they might have to start by not expecting that people are really getting saved just by walking onto a ballfield and saying a prayer. Or that their hearts are going to respond to a single message.

In 94, Billy Graham's messages were already wondering around. Even I, who had expected to hear some great preaching, got very bored during his talk, because it seemed to be about everything other than the person of Jesus Christ.

I think it's time for Americans to give up the "crusade" style of evangelism anyway. It's more of a made-for-tv show than it is a place to find Jesus.

[tulc]

I can understand your reluctance to speak against a man held in such high regard but I do not have that reluctance. I will say that I would hate to be Billy Graham and have to stand before God and give an answer for all the souls he has deceived.

Uhmmm...ok...:sorry: I know many who have ben touched and helped by him being used of the Lord over the years. remember though he (Billy) doesn't answer to you or what you believe he should (or shouldn't) do. In the end we are all saved by His mercy and grace. A grace and mercy that seems a little lacking in this thread. (IMHO) :sigh:
tulc(who also has much to answer for) :(

[RajunCajun86]

remember though he (Billy) doesn't answer to you or what you believe he should (or shouldn't) do. yeah he does we are to hold each other accountable as to the gospel that we preach

[tulc]

yeah he does we are to hold each other accountable as to the gospel that we preach

Uh oh. I think we just entered one of the scary areas. :sorry:
tulc(WAY to many landmines in that thought!) :)

[RajunCajun86]

Uh oh. I think we just entered one of the scary areas. :sorry: it wasn't to paul
paul told peter he stood condemned and corrected him

[tulc]

it wasn't to paul
paul told peter he stood condemned and corrected him

As you will. :sigh:
tulc(still thinks Billy has nothing to fear) :)

[AJ]

I must say that Mr. Graham has let me down... I believe that he is letting political correctness get in the way of the Gospel, and well... That's just wrong.

I look at it like this... if a pastor is not willing to stand up for what he believes and not willing to state a fact so clearly communicated in the Word of God, then I'm not sure that I'd want to be at his church.

If there were a local baptist pastor who answered a question without any conviction like that, I think that some would view it differently... But because Mr. Graham is one of the most influential pastors of our century, many look the other way or make excuses for why he isn't taking a stand.

I have really enjoyed listening to Mr. Graham's messages (especially the older ones) but his statement put Christ's sacrifice in the backseat and that is just not right. I believe that we have a responsibility to speak up when we see one of our leaders side-stepping the Word of God...

Now... All of that said... I have been around the media enough in my life to see how they can twist and turn comments and statements to make it appear as someone said something that they didn't. The media is notorious for taking comments made in other portions of conversation and placing them where they see fit, completely out of context. Although this appears to be a fairly complete quote.

Ultimately... We are all imperfect, even Billy... and we all make mistakes and stumble. I know that he has brought many many people to the Lord and that his ministry has touched a lot of people. It's my prayer that Billy Graham get reconnected to the truth in the Word of God and take a stand for our Savior... There is a time and a place for political correctness.... When describing our salvation, isn't one of those times.

In Him,
Adam

[Ginny]

tulc(still thinks Billy has nothing to fear) :)

Of course he does not, he prefers to accept Jesus as His lord and Savior...but for those others that he gave a clouded answer for....he didn't really lay it down.

Ginny (who fears for those lost that read his interview).

[tulc]

Ginny (who fears for those lost that read his interview)

Welcome to the joys of the paranthetical world! ;)
tulc(glad to have you around sis!) ;)

[ZiSunka]

I think in Billy Graham's case, we are all more or less victims of hero worship. We bought into the image of Graham as a great voice for God, a great evangelist and a great Christian because that is the way he has been marketed to us.

Truth is, we don't know the real Billy Graham, we only know the PR that has been presented to us. We don't know if he is as righteous as he claims to be or if his efforts have been as successful as the hype. The problem isn't just with Graham, but with us for putting a man, a famous man, on a pedestal and practically worshipping him when HE should be turning our attention off himself and onto God. We are both guilty of idolatry, us for worshipping him the way he's been worshipped and him for letting the hype get bigger than the humanness of the man.

We all have something to repent of. :(

[vossler]

Well if that's Billy Graham's view is it any wonder that we have modern preachers like Joel Osteen preaching a similar message. :sigh:

[edb19]

it wasn't to paul
paul told peter he stood condemned and corrected him

RC86,

You might be interested in a book my pastor recommended to me (I haven't read it yet:sigh:). Anyhow, the book is Evangelicalism Divided by Iain Murray (I heard him speak once - he was terrific). In the book he looks at the history of modern evangelicalism starting with Schleiermacher. From there he goes to Schleiermacher's impact on many of the evangelical leaders and organizations of today. Pastor David says the book is excellent, but sadly points out the disservice that many modern evangelicals (including Billy Graham) have done to the Christian church. David gave me a link for a book review - again, you might find it of interest.

edie

http://www.challies.com/archives/000846.php

[arunma]

Well if that's Billy Graham's view is it any wonder that we have modern preachers like Joel Osteen preaching a similar message. :sigh:

Here's an exampel of Pastor Osteen sidestepping the issue of universalism:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfwYU2pmWYQ

On a sidenote, I find his insinuation that all Indians practice the same (non-Christian) religion to be just a tad bit offensive.

[Abbadon]

So what your saying is that God arbitraily changes soteriology to accomodate man?

Where did I say that? All I said was that judgement is in God's hands, not ours. Billy didn't say anything outside that either. Not preaching hellfire and brimstone isn't the same as preaching universalism.

In conclusion, God never tries to save us. He either does or he does not. He cannot fail. By arguing that salvation is possible through this mode you create several problems that cannot be resolved.

OK, and what Billy said was basically that there, just worded differently: It's up to God, God isn't offering, he's forcing.

By arguing that salvation is possible through this mode you create several problems that cannot be resolved.

But removing the possibility of God giving us a choice to accept or deline salvation presents these problems:

If we have no choice what we do, why bother worrying about evil? Might as well get angry at gravity for stuff falling.

If we're all condemned, why does God only save some and not others?

Why did Christ die so that ANYONE can be saved by believing in Him if He's only going to have a few people believe in Him? Aren't we back to square one here?

More than that he has always preached decisionism salvation which is very akin to easy believeism.

"Decisionism" as opposed to "God is unfair and sends us to heaven or hell regardless of whether or not we'd accept Christ with or without Him -ism?"

Whether or not you agree with what the man says, you really do have to admire his zeal for the Lord.

Till all are one.

Amen.

I am sure we all know John 14:6, "I am the way and the truth and the life. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME."(NIV)
That about sums it up!
So if you are a buddist, hindu or muslim, etc this verse says alot about where you will spend eternity.
Jesus is not one way among many but the only way!!!

But if God is removing our choice in belief about things as some have suggested, isn't it possible that God will have someone (say a Muslim that doesn't regularly attend Mosque) believe in Christ even if that person isn't consciously aware of it?

I actually see Billy Graham's statement as more Calvinist than Armenian, since it's removing choice from it.

Man: "I wanna be a Muslim!"

God: "You're a Christian."

Man: "But I wanna be a Muslim!"

God: "Too bad, I'm saving you."

Man: "Save that fellow over there, he wants to be a Christian."

God: "Nah, made up my mind."

Or, God could not save the person that chooses Islam over Christ, and save the person that chooses Christ.

As someone pointed out, it's hard to pin down his real beliefs, and I think that is a bit dangerous.

Generally the people who's beliefs are easiest to pin down are legalists who don't think.

However, he's one of the few big-name evangelists that hasn't fallen into some type of great sin......which says a lot!

Yep, gives out his books for free and actually spend his time on TV preaching instead of "televangelising" to sell a book.

It's disappointing every time I see a big-name evangelist skirt the issue when asked up front "Is Jesus the ONLY way to heaven?" There is only one answer. "YES"

Jesus is the only way to heaven, but it's God that knows what people actually believe.

God has made it very plain in His Word that you do not come to Him in whatever way you want.

That wasn't what Joykins was talking about at all. She said that it's possible that there are some ways to God that God established that we may not know of because God didn't reveal them to us.

are we really debating on a BAPTIST forum how one is saved other than through Jesus Christ?

It's not that, we're debating if there are those that come to Christ outside what we know of as Christianity. While they would be Christians because they came to Christ, people sometimes aren't open to the idea that if they aren't Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, Reformed, Non-Denom, or Messianic Jew, it's possible they're still Christian.

I'm familiar with John 3:16. Not sure what version you have but mine does NOT say "one religion/faith is just as good as another and as long as you believe in something, it's all good."

You said: "He [Billy Graham] is also openly eccumenical insisting that whatever branch of Christianity one wishes to go into is ok because one is as good as another. Ack."

Tulc said: "...but...they are."

You asked: "Says who?"

When I brought up John 3:16, it was in referance to that. Don't put words in my mouth, don't try to retroactively change the context that responses were made in.

[Pepperoni]

You said: "He [Billy Graham] is also openly eccumenical insisting that whatever branch of Christianity one wishes to go into is ok because one is as good as another. Ack."

Tulc said: "...but...they are."

You asked: "Says who?"

When I brought up John 3:16, it was in referance to that. Don't put words in my mouth, don't try to retroactively change the context that responses were made in.
I have no idea what you're talking about.

I was pointing out that John 3:16 does not answer the question that was asked.

[mesue]

...

Anyway, saying that Jesus is the only way to God does not eliminate the possibility that there are ways of salvation that we do not understand, because they were not specifically given to us--just that Jesus controls them. ...
Jesus said in John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Jesus makes it pretty clear how one comes to the Father.

[Joykins]

Jesus said in John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Jesus makes it pretty clear how one comes to the Father.

Through him.

To those who understand the specific gospel story, it is through specific faith in him.

We do not know if he has a plan for those who have no understanding (or may have never heard) the specific gospel story.

That is for God to judge.

Certainly many here believe that children under the age of reason or people with severe developmental disabilities are not necessarily condemned because their understanding of the specific gospel story may be limited or nonexistent. That's the kind of thing I'm speculating about.

[Ginny]

Joykins- I agree with you....

But for the sake of the thread getting derailed here (and besides the fact that there needs to be MAJOR clarification)...

Billy Graham was SPECIFICALLY asked about Buddhists, Muslims, and JEWS....we're not talking about those on a remote island or those stuck in a cave that have never heard the name of Jesus. The interviewer was very specific. We are talking about organized religions that do not recognize Jesus Christ..who have heard of Him.

That is what this thread is about...Billy Graham's response to those who do not believe in Jesus Christ and his death on the cross and consciously turn away from Him.

If we take what the Word of God says about people that do so, we already have our answers. We do not have to guess. Can we not be encouraged in the fact that we can confidently take God's word and use it for our knowledge and proclaim truth?

[Pepperoni]

Billy Graham was SPECIFICALLY asked about Buddhists, Muslims, and JEWS....we're not talking about those on a remote island or those stuck in a cave that have never heard the name of Jesus. The interviewer was very specific. We are talking about organized religions that do not recognize Jesus Christ..who have heard of Him.

That is what this thread is about...Billy Graham's response to those who do not believe in Jesus Christ and his death on the cross and consciously turn away from Him.
Good point.

Personally, I still think he wimped out. I don't think he believes what he said. I think he took the easy way out so he could avoid conflict, and avoid offending anyone.

[AJ]

Good point.

Personally, I still think he wimped out. I don't think he believes what he said. I think he took the easy way out so he could avoid conflict, and avoid offending anyone.That's my take on it as well.

[arunma]

Good point.

Personally, I still think he wimped out. I don't think he believes what he said. I think he took the easy way out so he could avoid conflict, and avoid offending anyone.

I agree. In a moment of weakness he must have espoused falsehood so as to "remove the offense of the cross" (see Galatians 5:11). But let's be honest, here. Given the many televangelists who have fallen into sins of greed, lying, and adultery, if this is the worst sin that Billy Graham has ever committed in his long ministry, then he's doing pretty well.

[Joykins]

Many Muslim countries (and China as well) work very hard to make sure that their citizens do not hear the gospel. Unfortunately it's not just under a rock or on a desert island or in a cave. :sigh:

[tulc]

Alright let me try:
you said:
"He is also openly eccumenical insisting that [b]whatever branch of Christianity one wishes to go into is ok because one is as good as another. Ack." (emph. added)
...but...they are.
Says who?
then Abbadon said John 3: 16 says
let's look at it:
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
from looking at that it would appear that once you're saved you are part of the Church, so what does it matter where you spend your Sundays worshiping? :scratch: And I think that was what Abbadon was saying. :)
tulc(still thinks Billy is a man of God) :)

[mlqurgw]

"Decisionism" as opposed to "God is unfair and sends us to heaven or hell regardless of whether or not we'd accept Christ with or without Him -ism?"
If you want to oppose the truth of God be my guest. If you want to debate the Doctrines of Grace start another thread and I will respond. Billy Graham preaches decisionism plain and simple. You may deny it all you want and even try to justify it but it ain't the truth.

[Atlantians]

We were not given the actual question he was asked so to determine whether his statement was wrong is immpossible.
Furthermore he could also have misheard or misunderstood the question.

Withold judgement untill all the facts are in, and never make assumptions.

[tulc]

Billy Graham preaches decisionism plain and simple

Kind of like this guy?
26And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.

27And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
28Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
29Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
30And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
32The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
34And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
(emph. added)
... :)
tulc(or did I misunderstand you?) :sorry:

[Ginny]

We were not given the actual question he was asked so to determine whether his statement was wrong is immpossible Yes we were.

Furthermore he could also have misheard or misunderstood the question.

It was pretty straighforward.

Withold judgement untill all the facts are in, and never make assumptions. It was pretty black and white.

In fact, that writer goes on to say..... Such an ecumenical spirit may upset some Christian hard-liners, but in Graham's view, only God knows who is going to be saved

[mlqurgw]

Kind of like this guy?

... :)
tulc(or did I misunderstand you?) :sorry:I was surprised you didn't use Paul and the Phillipian jailor in Acts 16. Of course neither of them preached salvation by a decision as does Mr. Graham. It is the whole focus of his message and is little more than giving people a get out of hell free card by walking down to a place and saying a prayer. It gives people a false hope and is in reality salvation by works. Because of him far too many people trust their decision rather than Christ. One would be too many.

[SomeHearts]

hmm I see what you mean

[Abbadon]

Alright let me try:
you said:

"He [Billy Graham] is also openly eccumenical insisting that whatever branch of Christianity one wishes to go into is ok because one is as good as another. Ack." (emph. added)

...but...they are.

Says who?

then Abbadon said John 3:16 says
let's look at it:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

from looking at that it would appear that once you're saved you are part of the Church, so what does it matter where you spend your Sundays worshiping? And I think that was what Abbadon was saying.

tulc(still thinks Billy is a man of God)

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to tulc again.

If you want to oppose the truth of God be my guest.

I'm not opposing God at all, I'm opposing a theology, that, as all theologies are, developed by humans, and as such, should be tested to see which holds out.

I was surprised you didn't use Paul and the Phillipian jailor in Acts 16. Of course neither of them preached salvation by a decision as does Mr. Graham. It is the whole focus of his message and is little more than giving people a get out of hell free card by walking down to a place and saying a prayer. It gives people a false hope and is in reality salvation by works. Because of him far too many people trust their decision rather than Christ. One would be too many.

Do you believe God is loving, or that God saves or damns us by random chance, whim, or some thing along those lines?

If it's God forcing us, and not offering us the choice to believe (which, again, I'll bring up John 3:16), why bother?

The decision you're speaking of? The decision is to trust Christ, instead of saying that the perfect Parent loves some of His children more than others. By what merit does God save, faith or works? If it's faith, then it's an active decision, if it's not a decision/faith, then it's by works, or by cruel and loveless fate.

[aReformedPatriot]

Do you believe God is loving, or that God saves or damns us by random chance, whim, or some thing along those lines?

If it's God forcing us, and not offering us the choice to believe (which, again, I'll bring up John 3:16), why bother?

The decision you're speaking of? The decision is to trust Christ, instead of saying that the perfect Parent loves some of His children more than others. By what merit does God save, faith or works? If it's faith, then it's an active decision, if it's not a decision/faith, then it's by works, or by cruel and loveless fate.

I had these same misconceptions at one time and it was largely a misunderstanding of the teaching, which you are aptly demonstrating. Personally, I believe if you cannot actively teach something from the person's viewpoint against whom you are arguing with, you ought not speak against it all. Sometimes it's just better to be silent.

God saves no one who does not want to be saved. God likewise forces no one to embrace him. When was the last time you met a Christian whom God forced to love him, and when was the last time you met an athiest who was forced to be an unbeliever?

John 3:16 only makes sense when you consider God's Sovereignty. What John is writing about is the efficaciousness of Christ's sacrifice. Which means, that if Christ's sacrifice was efficacious for all, then all would be saved for there would be no payment left due for sin. Furthermore in the greater scheme of John's gospel we learn that the Father actually draws each man to his son. And that those whom the Father draws, none will be lost.

Here are those immediate passages that go in conjunction with John 3:16:

Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Now then, we clearly see that salvation totally begins with the Lord. This is what the calvinists call efficacious calling. The Lord moves in man so as to draw him to Christ. The logical corollary that must follow is bound in the question of what happens to those whom the Lord does not call. If they are not specifically drawn by the Father then they never come to the Son and thus they die. Thus Jesus died for those whom he would save only, otherwise his atonement would be for the sins of the whole world. Context, context, context is the most important thing. So then we see a sovereign choice by the Father. This is what we call election.

You are right when you say that we play an active role in the salvation process. We cannot escape the personal responsibility to respond to God's call in faith. However, if God never calls then no such act is necessary for you will never come to the son, remember? What is the nature of man? Is man basically good? What is the nature of God? Is God absolute holiness? God cannot act contrary to his nature can he? Of course not. In the same way, man cannot act contrary to his nature (we're talking about free-will here).

Come to Ephesians 2:

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience--
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

So we further learn that we are by nature not only not inherently good, but are children of Satan in all things. We are the complete antithesis of everything that God is. So if we cannot change on our own, we need an outside factor. The Father begins to work in man's heart in such a way that he DRAWS man to Christ (aka irresistable grace. If the Father draws you to Christ, recall that Christ will raise that man up on the last day). So then God is the initiator and the one who changes man's heart to respond willinglyin faith to Christ. He is not forced. On the reciprocal, those not called to faith are perfectly happy in their rejection of the Lord. Why? Because by nature they are children of wrath. He cannot please God at all, because without faith it is impossible to please God. When a man is saved, then he is truly free. Now he can choose either righteousness or sin, whereas before no matter how good he was he could not please God.

Turn to Romans 9 with John 3:16; 6:37; and 6:44 in mind:

Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

The Father is the one who draws. It is his sovereign choice. Then man responds. Romans 9:21-23 describes why the Lord chooses to call or not to call. Those whom he does not call are vessels of wrath, which highlight the mercies of the Lord to those who are saved:

Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--

Cross-Reference "Prepared" with Eph 1:4-5:

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Does this not then expose that God just does not randomly pick and choose who will be damned based on random chance, but that he is purposeful in his choices? Never forget that the Lord did not need to redeem you. The very fact that he saves just 1 person at all highlights the depths of his love and ought to shut your mouth in and of itself. Indeed, Paul says, "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (Rom 9:20). It is also important that you distinguish between whom God refers to as his children. His children are those who are found among the church; the saved. Therefore God love's his children more than he loves the lost.

When you highlight that our descision to accept Christ in faith is the most important act in salvation, then salvation becomes works based because salvation hinges on YOU and not the Lord. You leave out the first step of the Father drawing. And this in no way diminishes man's responsibility to respond to the Lord. If you also argue the concept based on Romans 8:29 that God looked into the future, saw who would accept him and then elected man to salvation, salvation is still contingent on the work of man's response in the future.

Edit: forgive all errors in grammer and spelling.

[JacobHall86]

Billy Graham is cool. He is also correct in what he said. :)
tulc(not arguing, just figure Billy deserves our respect and support) ;)

I agree that he deserves our respect. However I do not agree in that he is correct in what he said. We have been given authority to proclaim that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven. Anything else puts Christ on a cross for nothing.

[mlqurgw]

I had these same misconceptions at one time and it was largely a misunderstanding of the teaching, which you are aptly demonstrating. Personally, I believe if you cannot actively teach something from the person's viewpoint against whom you are arguing with, you ought not speak against it all. Sometimes it's just better to be silent.

God saves no one who does not want to be saved. God likewise forces no one to embrace him. When was the last time you met a Christian whom God forced to love him, and when was the last time you met an athiest who was forced to be an unbeliever?

John 3:16 only makes sense when you consider God's Sovereignty. What John is writing about is the efficaciousness of Christ's sacrifice. Which means, that if Christ's sacrifice was efficacious for all, then all would be saved for there would be no payment left due for sin. Furthermore in the greater scheme of John's gospel we learn that the Father actually draws each man to his son. And that those whom the Father draws, none will be lost.

Here are those immediate passages that go in conjunction with John 3:16:

Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Now then, we clearly see that salvation totally begins with the Lord. This is what the calvinists call efficacious calling. The Lord moves in man so as to draw him to Christ. The logical corollary that must follow is bound in the question of what happens to those whom the Lord does not call. If they are not specifically drawn by the Father then they never come to the Son and thus they die. Thus Jesus died for those whom he would save only, otherwise his atonement would be for the sins of the whole world. Context, context, context is the most important thing. So then we see a sovereign choice by the Father. This is what we call election.

You are right when you say that we play an active role in the salvation process. We cannot escape the personal responsibility to respond to God's call in faith. However, if God never calls then no such act is necessary for you will never come to the son, remember? What is the nature of man? Is man basically good? What is the nature of God? Is God absolute holiness? God cannot act contrary to his nature can he? Of course not. In the same way, man cannot act contrary to his nature (we're talking about free-will here).

Come to Ephesians 2:

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience--
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

So we further learn that we are by nature not only not inherently good, but are children of Satan in all things. We are the complete antithesis of everything that God is. So if we cannot change on our own, we need an outside factor. The Father begins to work in man's heart in such a way that he DRAWS man to Christ (aka irresistable grace. If the Father draws you to Christ, recall that Christ will raise that man up on the last day). So then God is the initiator and the one who changes man's heart to respond willinglyin faith to Christ. He is not forced. On the reciprocal, those not called to faith are perfectly happy in their rejection of the Lord. Why? Because by nature they are children of wrath. He cannot please God at all, because without faith it is impossible to please God. When a man is saved, then he is truly free. Now he can choose either righteousness or sin, whereas before no matter how good he was he could not please God.

Turn to Romans 9 with John 3:16; 6:37; and 6:44 in mind:

Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

The Father is the one who draws. It is his sovereign choice. Then man responds. Romans 9:21-23 describes why the Lord chooses to call or not to call. Those whom he does not call are vessels of wrath, which highlight the mercies of the Lord to those who are saved:

Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--

Cross-Reference "Prepared" with Eph 1:4-5:

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Does this not then expose that God just does not randomly pick and choose who will be damned based on random chance, but that he is purposeful in his choices? Never forget that the Lord did not need to redeem you. The very fact that he saves just 1 person at all highlights the depths of his love and ought to shut your mouth in and of itself. Indeed, Paul says, "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (Rom 9:20). It is also important that you distinguish between whom God refers to as his children. His children are those who are found among the church; the saved. Therefore God love's his children more than he loves the lost.

When you highlight that our descision to accept Christ in faith is the most important act in salvation, then salvation becomes works based because salvation hinges on YOU and not the Lord. You leave out the first step of the Father drawing. And this in no way diminishes man's responsibility to respond to the Lord. If you also argue the concept based on Romans 8:29 that God looked into the future, saw who would accept him and then elected man to salvation, salvation is still contingent on the work of man's response in the future.

Edit: forgive all errors in grammer and spelling.Great Job! I probably wouldn't have been as kind.

[Atlantians]

Yes we were.


No we were not, we were given a paraphrase of the question he was asked. I want the transcript of the conversation.

[JPPT1974]

I think he is still a very admired man
And he is very much a man of God IMO!

[GordonSlocum]

Just reflecting: Billy Graham has had a huge influence in the lives of countless thousands perhaps millions of people.

How many on here can "Touch That"?

Not that does not prove anything does it? NO

The belief BG holds to on peoples who respond to the light they have is shared by many Believers, true or false.

It is his theology. Does that make him evil, different? Really are you surprised at this?

Here is my belief.

I personally believe that a person, hypothetical or not, living in the most remote place on the earth and speaking a language no one has ever heard of - of whom responds to the natural revelation to know the "Un-known God" [See Acts - Paul addresses this issue] will find Jesus. I go a step further than BG does but I don't condemn him for not going as far as I do.

I don't care where or who or what about a person if they in my understanding seek God - God will reveal Himself to that person some how some way before Death unto Salvation.

I also believe that there is an age of accountability. It is different for all people, but average for most. A mentally retarded person who's mind is stuck, let say at the age level of 5 or 8, or 10 will go to heaven regardless. This person may be 90 but in their minds and actions only a child.

I know this slaps, in the theological 5 Clover Leaf Calvinist face, but so be it. My criticism there deserves notice as well as what we discuss here.

God is Just. Whatever we think, and believe here on this earth does not change God's Justice.

BG loves the Lord and has presented his life a sacrifice holy and acceptable to Him.

None of us I am convinced hold truthfully 100 percent the correct understanding of God's word. That does not mean we give up and stop learning, living, studying, practicing God's word.

God Bless.

[Ginny]

...nor do we ignore what is quite understandable. :)

[mesue]

Gentle Reminder
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:NjIreMwWrh18QM:http://soulemama.typepad.com/photos/knitting_projects/hat.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://soulemama.typepad.com/photos/knitting_projects/hat.jpg&imgrefurl=http://soulemama.typepad.com/photos/knitting_projects/hat.html&h=513&w=406&sz=75&hl=en&start=104&tbnid=NjIreMwWrh18QM:&tbnh=131&tbnw=104&prev=/images%3Fq%3DHat%26start%3D100%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26rls%3DGGLG,GGLG:2006-27,GGLG:en%26sa%3DN)
(mod hat)

Only Baptists may debate in this forum.
I can open the thread up for debate of all denoms, I will be more than happy to do so, after I recieve a PM from the OP requesting this. Otherwise there cannot be any inter-denominatioal debating :sorry:

[tulc]

:sorry: sorry guys :(
tulc(going back to the anabaptist ghetto) :cool:

[Pepperoni]

:sorry: sorry guys :(
tulc(going back to the anabaptist ghetto) :cool:
Well I enjoyed reading your posts. Even if they were wrong. :P

[Ginny]

May the thread continue as it were...

I posted this thread in the Baptist forum b/c I felt we all agreed that the only way to eternal life is Jesus Christ.

[JacobHall86]

After reading alot of the posts, it seems as though some are more devoted to Billy Graham than to the Gospel. His good works does not nullify what he has said. If he truely said that than he is wrong. Plain and Simple.

[arunma]

I also believe that there is an age of accountability. It is different for all people, but average for most. A mentally retarded person who's mind is stuck, let say at the age level of 5 or 8, or 10 will go to heaven regardless. This person may be 90 but in their minds and actions only a child.

I don't mean to jump on you for this, but is there any Scriptural justification for the doctrine of the "age of accountability?" I'm asking because this topic has a bit of history on the Baptist forum. Several of us have come to the conclusion that this doctrine simply doesn't exist in the Bible (or any non-canonical scripture that I'm aware of), and was invented by well-meaning people who couldn't bear to believe that God would condemn infant children to hell. Anyway, I figured that as long as the topic came up, I might as well ask what your opinion is.

I know this slaps, in the theological 5 Clover Leaf Calvinist face, but so be it. My criticism there deserves notice as well as what we discuss here.

Heh, that's TULIP. But we love non-Calvinists anyway. ;)

[ZiSunka]

I think any time the human being gets to be bigger and more important than the One he is preaching about, that human being has become an idol and that is evil.

Billy Graham has even named his "crusades" after himself, and has made his name into a major brand of evangelical preaching. People who couldn't make two correct statements about Jesus Christ can tell you exactly who Billy Graham is and what he does.

Graham has gotten to be a huge figure in American and world pop culture. and that Q factor has gotten to be more important to his organization than the Q factor of Christ himself.

Why don't they name the crusades after the person the message is about, instead of the person the message is being delivered by?

[Erinwilcox]

I also believe that there is an age of accountability. It is different for all people, but average for most. A mentally retarded person who's mind is stuck, let say at the age level of 5 or 8, or 10 will go to heaven regardless. This person may be 90 but in their minds and actions only a child.

I know this slaps, in the theological 5 Clover Leaf Calvinist face, but so be it. My criticism there deserves notice as well as what we discuss here.

God is Just. Whatever we think, and believe here on this earth does not change God's Justice.





#1. Statement A. I won't go into this a whole lot since it is a touchy issue. However, if there is an age of accountability (and I'm not saying one way or the other), then would it be a humane thing to do to every person born be to kill them off before they become accountable? I mean, then everyone could go to heaven. That is where I get stuck. . .

#2.Statement 2. It's the TULIP, man, the TULIP. And, just as a reminder of what it stands for. . .

Total depravity
Unconditional election
Limited atonement
Irresistible grace
Perseverence of the saints

You did make me laugh though. . .I've never heard of the "five leaf clover" doctrine before! ;)

#3. Statement 3--AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!!! :amen: God absolutely is just. Praise Him for sending Christ to die in our stead and to suffer the punishment for our sins that God's justice might be satisfied toward His people!

[HypoTypoSis]

I understand that no one can truly know the heart of an individual,

Can anyone truly know the heart and mind of God?

Revelation 20:15, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Can any but God know the contents of the book of life?

The contents of the book of life assures us the proffered life beyond our physically imminent death is only for the living.

[RajunCajun86]

Can anyone truly know the heart and mind of God?
sure can, i know the heart of God, it is here...
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Matthew 28:19-20
God is passionate for His name to be known in all the ethnic groups and for glory to be given to Him

Revelation 20:15, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Can any but God know the contents of the book of life?
i know my name is in there, and i can tell by the fruits of others if their is too

[Pepperoni]

Can anyone truly know the heart and mind of God?

I see what you're saying. While it's true that only God knows what's in the heart of individuals, and we can only speculate based on their actions, it's also true that someone who makes it known that they have no use for the Bible or believing in Jesus Christ as their Savior--I think it's safe to assume that person will not be seeing Heaven unless they have a drastic change of heart at some point.

Rev. Billy Graham does not seem interested in taking a stand as strong as this.

[RajunCajun86]

i know my name is in there, and i can tell by the fruits of others if their is too
just for clarification...

15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Matthew 7:16
just wanted to reference my previous statement

[Erinwilcox]

i know my name is in there, and i can tell by the fruits of others if their is too

That is a very interesting point. So many people throw out the "JUDGE NOT" clause when speaking of others and their actions and/or salvation; however,

Mat 3:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat003.html#10) And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mat. 7:16 By their fruits you will know them. Do
you gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles?
Mat 7:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat007.html#17) Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.


Mat 7:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat007.html#18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.


Mat 7:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat007.html#19) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.


Luk 3:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk003.html#9) And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.


Luk 6:43 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk006.html#43) For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.


Gal 5:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gal&chapter=5&verse=19&version=kjv)Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,Gal 5:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gal&chapter=5&verse=20&version=kjv)Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gal&chapter=5&verse=21&version=kjv)Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.Gal 5:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gal&chapter=5&verse=22&version=kjv)But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,Gal 5:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gal&chapter=5&verse=23&version=kjv)Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gal&chapter=5&verse=24&version=kjv)And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.Gal 5:25 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gal&chapter=5&verse=25&version=kjv)If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gal&chapter=5&verse=26&version=kjv)Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.




While I don't know if we could say for certain that somebody definitely is not saved, I think that we can have a VERY good idea about the state of their souls by the fruits they display. I do not think it is judging--it think it's called discernment.

[Erinwilcox]

I see what you're saying. While it's true that only God knows what's in the heart of individuals, and we can only speculate based on their actions, it's also true that someone who makes it known that they have no use for the Bible or believing in Jesus Christ as their Savior--I think it's safe to assume that person will not be seeing Heaven unless they have a drastic change of heart at some point.

.


:amen: Nicely stated.

[RajunCajun86]

I do not think it is judging--it think it's called discernment.
well said, we would do well to exercise that discernment

[HypoTypoSis]

Romans 11:33-34, "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?"

[Ginny]

Romans 11:33-34, "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?"

Nor should we ignore the Word of God...which He gave us to learn His ways and His plan of salvation.

God would not give us the key to learning the way to salvation just for us to sit around guessing what it is when it is before our very eyes in the living breathing Word of God.

Can no one stand firm in the Word of God? It was not given to us only for us to be weak in our faith ignorantly wandering around as if we do not know what God does and does not want.

[Erinwilcox]

Nor should we ignore the Word of God...which He gave us to learn His ways and His plan of salvation.

God would not give us the key to learning the way to salvation just for us to sit around guessing what it is when it is before our very eyes in the living breathing Word of God.

Can no one stand firm in the Word of God? It was not given to us only for us to be weak in our faith ignorantly wandering around as if we do not know what God does and does not want.

I agree.

1. Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine!
O what a foretaste of glory divine!
Heir of salvation, purchase of God,
born of his Spirit, washed in his blood.

Refrain:
This is my story, this is my song,
praising my Savior all the day long;
this is my story, this is my song,
praising my Savior all the day long.

2. Perfect submission, perfect delight,
visions of rapture now burst on my sight;
angels descending bring from above
echoes of mercy, whispers of love.

(Refrain)

3. Perfect submission, all is at rest;
I in my Savior am happy and blest,
watching and waiting, looking above,
filled with his goodness, lost in his love.
(Refrain)

[mont974x4]

That is a very interesting point. So many people throw out the "JUDGE NOT" clause when speaking of others and their actions and/or salvation; however,

Mat 3:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat003.html#10) And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mat. 7:16 By their fruits you will know them. Do
you gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles?
Mat 7:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat007.html#17) Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.


Mat 7:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat007.html#18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.


Mat 7:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat007.html#19) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.


Luk 3:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk003.html#9) And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.


Luk 6:43 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk006.html#43) For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.


Gal 5:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gal&chapter=5&verse=19&version=kjv)Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,Gal 5:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gal&chapter=5&verse=20&version=kjv)Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gal&chapter=5&verse=21&version=kjv)Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.Gal 5:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gal&chapter=5&verse=22&version=kjv)But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,Gal 5:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gal&chapter=5&verse=23&version=kjv)Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gal&chapter=5&verse=24&version=kjv)And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.Gal 5:25 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gal&chapter=5&verse=25&version=kjv)If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gal&chapter=5&verse=26&version=kjv)Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.




While I don't know if we could say for certain that somebody definitely is not saved, I think that we can have a VERY good idea about the state of their souls by the fruits they display. I do not think it is judging--it think it's called discernment.

Excellent! Many people misunderstand the idea of not judging others. We are to be points of contention or condemnation but we are to hold people accountable to biblical truths in love and encouragment...sometimes that means taking a hard stand and sometimes that is through a gentle hand....always with love.

And I agree, by looking at the fruit we certainly can see the heart (at least in part).

[edb19]

That is a very interesting point. So many people throw out the "JUDGE NOT" clause when speaking of others and their actions and/or salvation; however . . . . . While I don't know if we could say for certain that somebody definitely is not saved, I think that we can have a VERY good idea about the state of their souls by the fruits they display. I do not think it is judging--it think it's called discernment.

Sometimes this is the most frustrating thing I encounter at CF!:sigh:

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Erinwilcox again.

[JPPT1974]

Excellent! Many people misunderstand the idea of not judging others. We are to be points of contention or condemnation but we are to hold people accountable to biblical truths in love and encouragment...sometimes that means taking a hard stand and sometimes that is through a gentle hand....always with love.

And I agree, by looking at the fruit we certainly can see the heart (at least in part).


Good point my friend as we can
Agree to disagree or just keep our
Mouths shut because some things are
Better left unsaid you know!

[mont974x4]

Good point my friend as we can
Agree to disagree or just keep our
Mouths shut because some things are
Better left unsaid you know!

I have begun to think we need to pick our battles (with prayer and guidance from Him). Simply put some things are not that important. As long as we agree on who Christ is, salvation issues, who God is...other key foundation issues, that is what matters. If we disagree on things like alcohol (matters of personal freedom) then I think we can agree to disagree. While we can and should share our basis for our opinions we should not allow them to become points of contention.

Does that make sense?


Jay (who often has trouble keeping his big yap shut but is learning grace and mercy from Him) ;)

[Erinwilcox]

I have begun to think we need to pick our battles (with prayer and guidance from Him). Simply put some things are not that important. As long as we agree on who Christ is, salvation issues, who God is...other key foundation issues, that is what matters. If we disagree on things like alcohol (matters of personal freedom) then I think we can agree to disagree. While we can and should share our basis for our opinions we should not allow them to become points of contention.

Does that make sense?


Jay (who often has trouble keeping his big yap shut but is learning grace and mercy from Him) ;)
Absolutely. For example, you may be right about things 95% of the time. But, if you are constantly jumping the gun and fighting for something where perhaps you are wrong or it is an issue of liberty or of little importance, then your credibility gets thrown out the window. So, pick your battles wisely--cause people never forget those who consistently make mountains out of molehills.

[mont974x4]

Absolutely. For example, you may be right about things 95% of the time. But, if you are constantly jumping the gun and fighting for something where perhaps you are wrong or it is an issue of liberty or of little importance, then your credibility gets thrown out the window. So, pick your battles wisely--cause people never forget those who consistently make mountains out of molehills.


hmm do you know me? Have you been talking to my lil missus?:D

[Erinwilcox]

hmm do you know me? Have you been talking to my lil missus?:D

^_^
Nah. . .I just know some people like that. I love them dearly and they really are right 95-99% of the time. . .but that 1-5% that they jump the gun on with others, even if I agree with them. . .let's just say that it's those times that I'd rather not be so widely known that I am generally of the same mindset as they. (and no, it's not my parents!:) )