Where do you get your head covering?

[gtsecc]

Also, should women Priests cover their head or not?


4 Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head--it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6 For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil. 7 For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 (For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. 9 Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.) 10 That is why a woman ought to have a veil on her head, because of the angels. 11 (Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man nor man of woman; 12 for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God.)

[karen freeinchristman]

1 Corinthians 11:13
Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?

St. Paul tells us to judge for ourselves.
Head coverings are irrelevant in this day.

[gtsecc]

1 Corinthians 11:13
Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?

St. Paul tells us to judge for ourselves.
Head coverings are irrelevant in this day.
Wait a min - are you appealing to tradition or scripture? :D

[karen freeinchristman]

Wait a min - are you appealing to tradition or scripture? :D

I am using reason in this instance.

[Fairbairn]

These verses are about being respectful and making your intentions clear. If you are going to be seen as a decent woman, then you should look like one - and, in the context of Paul's writings to the church in Corinth, that was proper order of the day. In our day and age, we would say something like to wear a wedding ring and take your husband's name if you are married, so that it does not look like you are on the pull, for example.

Whenever we read scripture, we should ask ourselves what does it say, what does it mean in the context it was written in, and what does it mean in our lives today. Letters to the various churches are highly contextual, whereas other parts of scripture should be taken at face value.

The wonderful thing about scripture is that it does speak to us today in the context of our lives. Scripture is not locked in time; our lives are very different from the lives of those who lived in the Eastern Med 2000 years ago. There are situations where we want to think about what scripture has to tell us about new challenges we face - for example, how should we deal with the information age, with medical technology, with electricity etc.

[SirTimothy]

Whenever we read scripture, we should ask ourselves what does it say, what does it mean in the context it was written in, and what does it mean in our lives today. Letters to the various churches are highly contextual, whereas other parts of scripture should be taken at face value.

I think I want that for my new signature...

[karen freeinchristman]

I think I want that for my new signature...
Yeah, I think those are good words, too!

[pmcleanj]

Where do you get your head covering?

http://www.tilleyendurables.com -- The world's best hat.

But I use it more for walking in the sun, than for praying or prophesying. I like Liz Claiborne straw hats for church in the summer; and those I buy at the Hudson's Bay Company. In the winter we were toques, of course, and take them off when we go indoors because they look so silly.

I never did take my husband's last name, since my original last name is such a good one. But I think seeing the two of us hanging around together over the last eighteen years and chasing after the same two children for ten-to-fourteen of those years, is going to get the idea that we're hooked up.

[Aymn27]

http://www.tilleyendurables.com -- The world's best hat.

But I use it more for walking in the sun, than for praying or prophesying. I like Liz Claiborne straw hats for church in the summer; and those I buy at the Hudson's Bay Company. In the winter we were toques, of course, and take them off when we go indoors because they look so silly.

I never did take my husband's last name, since my original last name is such a good one. But I think seeing the two of us hanging around together over the last eighteen years and chasing after the same two children for ten-to-fourteen of those years, is going to get the idea that we're hooked up.
^_^ :thumbsup:

My wife has never "officially" taken my last name either - but that is because we lost our marriage certificate on our honeymoon in Cozumel and we've been too lazy and cheap to go buy another one for $35 - as we don't see it as an important issue (btw she likes her last name as well so she uses the "-" method with mine - she was a writer for a local magazine and thought it sounded sophisticated) - the drawback of course, is that there may be a dozen or so female immigrants that have a Scottish-Irish surname!!! (anyone know of a hispanic lady that has the last name Guthrey-Andrews?)

[karen freeinchristman]

Also, should women Priests cover their head or not?


4 Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head--it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6 For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil. 7 For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 (For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. 9 Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.) 10 That is why a woman ought to have a veil on her head, because of the angels. 11 (Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man nor man of woman; 12 for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God.)

So gtsecc, what is your view?

[gtsecc]

So gtsecc, what is your view?
Oh heck, I dunno.
It sure seems weird.
But, I have some close friends and they swear by it, or rather pray by it.
In other words the scarf isn't magic, but it does seem to help people focus on prayer. I do not know what the Orthodox word on the matter is, but I will find out.

[No Swansong]

Oh heck, I dunno.
It sure seems weird.
But, I have some close friends and they swear by it, or rather pray by it.
In other words the scarf isn't magic, but it does seem to help people focus on prayer. I do not know what the Orthodox word on the matter is, but I will find out.

Some do some don't. I believe wearing a head covering is the norm in Eastern European countries.

[Torah613]

As jtbdad said, some do some don't. Its the norm among recent immigrants, among the elderly, and among the old calandrists (in this I include ROCOR, the various TOCs, the various GOCs etc.) but not among american converts or even 2nd-on generation immigrants (unless they are in an old calander church).

The Matushka at the Orthodox church I used to attend wore one occassionally, but most everyone else did not--including the immigrants.

But the headcovering for women was part of the popular culture of eastern europe right up until the bolshevik revolution (and still part of greek culture). Thus wearing it is more of a cultural thing than a religious thing.

An interesting note on the subject, a trained eye can determine an Orthodox lady's national identity by how she ties her scarf.

Joe Zollars

[longhair75]

good evening friends,

as a roman catholic growing up in the fifties, i remember my mother and sisters wearing chapel veils when ever we went to mass.

[AngCath]

Oh heck, I dunno.
It sure seems weird.
But, I have some close friends and they swear by it, or rather pray by it.
In other words the scarf isn't magic, but it does seem to help people focus on prayer. I do not know what the Orthodox word on the matter is, but I will find out.

My brother and wife both report that in Belarus and in Russia, the Orthodox Churches require head coverings for women without exception.

[HandmaidenOfGod]

The Orthodox view you ask?

Depends on the parish.

I was raised in a Ukrainian parish where no one covered their head, except for the annual Easter Bonnet. (After all, we do have a taste for fashion! :P )

In the OCA parish I currently attend, the priest's wife refuses to cover her head and has short hair, and the deacon's wife always covers her head and has long hair. About 30% of the women in the parish cover their head, but it's not mandated or anything. The priest's attitude is "do as the spirit leads you." (In this case.)

I've visited Greek Orthodox Monastaries where it was required for all women to cover their heads just to walk on the grounds!

So I guess you could say that the official Orthodox opinion on headcoverings is that we don't have an official Orthodox opinion on headcoverings. That's Orthodoxy for you! :)

Now I must say that I'm surprised our Anglican friends in Britain aren't screaming for headcoverings: after all, are the Brits famous for their hats? ;)

[Torah613]

LOL HoG!

How very true. Like I said, the ROCOR and ROAC parishes I got started in had signs posted about women covering their heads. All the OCA parishes had very few headcoverings in sight. In fact at one, a TAWer told me I could recognize her because only she would be wearing a scarf.

AngCath: That is Eastern Europe where it is part of hte culture. Just like Tsourikakia Smyrnis on Pascha for the Greeks and Koolich on Pascha for the Russians. Orthodoxy is a faith that believes in total inculturation. In the future, I imagine that in the states the headcovering will dissappear among most Orthodox (except the Old Calandrists and the recent immigrants) as it is just not part of our culture. I am as sure of this as I am sure that somewhere in the south someone brings pecan pie and carolinian style BBQ to the Break-Fast meal.

A note on the culturally oriented tying of headscarves in the east. Greeks pull their hair into one bunch, or braid it, and tie the ends of hte scarf in the back of the head under the hair. Russians, Ukranians, and most other slavs tie the ends of the scarf under the chin (except the babas who seem to copy the greek style). Romanians generally let the scarves hang free like the mexicans do. Ethiopian headscarves are actually an entire outer garment of white worn over the clothing and pulled up over the head *of both genders* at least in the old country. Not sure how copts do it.

Joe Zollars

[Fairbairn]

Now I must say that I'm surprised our Anglican friends in Britain aren't screaming for headcoverings: after all, are the Brits famous for their hats? I'd say the only time that hats are worn in church is at weddings, and even then, this is very much a class/prosperity and very secular.
Racing is the other place, and I guess there is a lot of praying going on there.
In both these situations, the number of women who wear hats also attracts a certain % of men wearing hats too.

[karen freeinchristman]

Racing is the other place, and I guess there is a lot of praying going on there.

^_^

[erin74]

Oh heck, I dunno.
It sure seems weird.
But, I have some close friends and they swear by it, or rather pray by it.
In other words the scarf isn't magic, but it does seem to help people focus on prayer. I do not know what the Orthodox word on the matter is, but I will find out.
But is this passage saying women should wear it to focus more on prayer. Wouldn't that be a bit of a crutch in a sense... I thought the reason given for headcovering was one of headship?

[erin74]

I just realised that it's a different forum than this that we were discussing this recently.

I heard a talk on this very recently. The conclusion the speaker came to was that it was about being female. That the reason head covering was probably a sign of submission was that it showed she was female. So her conclusion was that head covering was not essential for women, but that we should consider our femininity when we meet together. That we should not be dressed in a way that looks more masculine than feminine. There was just way too much in that sermon to re-iterate it in such a short post,b ut that was essentially the conclusion.

[karen freeinchristman]

And what is it with men nowadays, wearing earrings and pink shirts??? :sorry: ;)

[Fairbairn]

And what is it with men nowadays, wearing earrings and pink shirts??? :sorry: ;)
and frilly sleeves :)

[SirTimothy]

And what is it with men nowadays, wearing earrings and pink shirts???

Wasn't it Pamela who said that pink used to be a very masculine colour?

[karen freeinchristman]

Wasn't it Pamela who said that pink used to be a very masculine colour?
I wouldn't be surprised - when you look at what people seemed to wear in the 18th-19th centuries, wigs and frills everywhere, both men and women! Rouge, powder... :o

[Torah613]

Pink was a masculine colour because it is derived from red, and is a colour of agression. Blue, which naturally promotes calmness and tranquility, was a feminine colour until the retail industry got all their symbology wrong in the search for the almighty dollar.

Joe Zollars

[karen freeinchristman]

Pink was a masculine colour because it is derived from red, and is a colour of agression. Blue, which naturally promotes calmness and tranquility, was a feminine colour until the retail industry got all their symbology wrong in the search for the almighty dollar.

Joe Zollars
That is amazing!

[Torah613]

interesting tidbits fo cultural history. Red was also a colour assosciated with Aries and Blue a colour assosciated with Venus, back in the day.

Joe Zollars

[gtsecc]

Blue is associated with Mary.
In the Sky the light comes through the Blue.

[Torah613]

that is true, but I'm talking prechristian times--when the notions of gender-identifying colours were set that remained in place until the early 20th century.

An interesting note, it wasn't until shorly before the renaisance that Mary became assosciated with blue. She was traditionally depicted in both blue and red until that time.

Joe Zollars

[gtsecc]

that is true, but I'm talking prechristian times--when the notions of gender-identifying colours were set that remained in place until the early 20th century.

An interesting note, it wasn't until shorly before the renaisance that Mary became assosciated with blue. She was traditionally depicted in both blue and red until that time.

Joe Zollars
But,I don't think that is any different.
The blue is associated with the divine, and the red with humanity.

[Torah613]

there are multiple interpretations as to that colour arrangement. frequently, even in canonical Icons, the colours are reveresed (such as in the Icon of the Theotokos of Walsingham).

Joe Zollars

[She]

Where do you get your head covering?

Millets

[gtsecc]

Luzar Vestments:
http://www.luzarvestments.co.uk/litwearnew_files/Birettas.jpg (http://www.luzarvestments.co.uk/litwearnew_pages/B001.jpg)