Basics of Anabaptism

[ZiSunka]

It occured to me that we should start a thread about the things that all anabpatists share in common, or at least the majority of anabaptists, like the peace witness and not being calvinistic.

Are there other things we agree on no matter what sect of anabaptist we are?

[AngCath]

I was going to start a thread asking about the basics but I'll just ask here: what are the basic beliefs of Anabaptists?
I am ignorant on this topic and would like to know more about you my brothers and sisters.

[MrJim]

Your first stop is the sticky at the top. Read through the confessions and come back with your questions and we'll see what we can answer.

[Danfrey]

As far as what all Anabaptists have in common, I think it ends with the peace witness and believers baptism. Anabaptist is a very broad term and includes many different theological stand points.

[MrJim]

Matthew 28:20 "...teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

I heard it described once that the anabaptists attempt to do the "all things" of scripture.

[AngCath]

As far as what all Anabaptists have in common, I think it ends with the peace witness and believers baptism. Anabaptist is a very broad term and includes many different theological stand points.

Friends (Quakers) are Anabaptists right? yet they don't baptize. do they have less in common than the rest of Anabaptists or are they pretty representative of y'all?

sorry about all the questions, I've had very little exposure is all.

[MrJim]

Friends (Quakers) are Anabaptists right? yet they don't baptize. do they have less in common than the rest of Anabaptists or are they pretty representative of y'all?

sorry about all the questions, I've had very little exposure is all.

No
Quakers are an offshoot of the Puritan/Anglican group of believers (they're your cousins;)).

While they have some similar beliefs they are not anabaptist.

And their peace witness is more pacifist rather than non-resistant like the historical anabaptists.

[ZiSunka]

Friends (Quakers) are Anabaptists right? yet they don't baptize. do they have less in common than the rest of Anabaptists or are they pretty representative of y'all?

sorry about all the questions, I've had very little exposure is all.

Nope, Quakers are a whole different animal and are not and never were associated with anabaptism or its offshoots.

Quaker and anabaptist theology and practice are completely different from each other.

[Danfrey]

Friends (Quakers) are Anabaptists right? yet they don't baptize. do they have less in common than the rest of Anabaptists or are they pretty representative of y'all?

sorry about all the questions, I've had very little exposure is all.
Quakers are not Anabaptists. They are here with us because we find common ground on many issues. There is not any one group that is represenative of all Anabaptists. Our groups range from very traditional horse and buggy groups to very progressive groups that would blend in at the mall. There are core beliefs that we hold in common such as taking Jesus' sermon on the mount literally, but there are also many differences.

[MadFingerPainter]

what is peace witnessing?

[vespasia]

In the UK its called concientious objection.
People refused to serve in active war service if the intent was to cuase harm to any.
The government responded by allowing concis' to serve in the red cross and in 'caring' for all.

There is no way to disguise it war is terrible its consequences awful and people simply are hurt by it.

In the Uk the quakers led the way in social reform based on scripture and in peaceful witnessing of their beliefs.

[MadFingerPainter]

thank you for answering my question ves.

[Jehane]

The Quakers would not be active participants in fighting but were always thick on the ground in things like the medical corp, where they felt they were helping readjust the balance of war. Many of them I'd consider incredibly brave; they copped flack for not fighting but did what they could to help the wounded of both sides.

[AngCath]

thanks for your feedback regarding the Friends

[ZiSunka]

In the UK its called concientious objection. People refused to serve in active war service if the intent was to cuase harm to any.
The government responded by allowing concis' to serve in the red cross and in 'caring' for all.

There is no way to disguise it war is terrible its consequences awful and people simply are hurt by it.

In the Uk the quakers led the way in social reform based on scripture and in peaceful witnessing of their beliefs.


It's more than CO, it's actively building peace, resisting all attempts to get us engaged in violence of any kind, not supporting capital punishment, speaking out against war.

In the US, consciencious objection is about being released from military service obligations because of religious beliefs.

[ZiSunka]

Mennonites believe that even service in the medical corps only serves to escalate the fighting on the front lines. The purpose of the medical corps is not to save lives, but to get men (and women) in good enough health to put them back in the battle.

Mennonites do their service at home in other places. One CO man I know was a teacher and the government sent him to a school for severely mentally challenged children, a place where they couldn't hire teachers because no one wanted to work with such disabled children. The whole place was staffed with CO teachers.


Another man, also a teacher, was sent to an island off the coast of Maine where he taught all the children from kindergarten through high school in one room. This was a school that desperately needed a teacher but couldn't find one because they could only pay $500 a year (in the 1960's). If he had gone to the army, he would have been out in 2 years. As a CO, he had to serve 4 years at the school.

Another was sent to clean at a mental hospital.

One other I knew was sent to fight wildfires out west and died during his service.

COs don't get off without having to do anything. They aren't staying home enjoying a normal life while others are off dying. They are taking the jobs that even the men off dying wouldn't take, jobs that benefit the world instead of contributing to its destruction.

But I'm sure it is the same in Aust and the UK!

[ZiSunka]

I'm sure we can all agree on absentence issues:

no drinking
no dancing
no sex outside of marriage

right?

[MrJim]

I'm sure we can all agree on absentence issues:

no drinking
no dancing
no sex outside of marriage

right?

agreed

[vespasia]

The way the phrase CO is used in the two counteries is differant.
The UK government found it was shooting a lot of its own men for objecting to fighting. The Quakers protested peacefully but persistantly.
By the second world war the government worked out that shooting concis' was self defeating and shooting people simply did not change their beliefs. Some had even thanked the shooting parties for sending them to God instead of making them fight.

The UK has abolished capital punishment for ALL reasons.
People are allowed to protest against war. Brain Haw has held a peaceful protest outside the houses of parliment for years.

We live in differant countries with differing social needs and ways of thinking.

Open Brethren adhere to the abstinace of intoxication and sex outside of marriage.
They DO dance although you will not often see people dancing with someone other than their spouse or the person they hope to eventually marry.

[ZiSunka]

Yes, the American government used to shoot COs, too. By the second world war, they stopped doing that, thanks mostly to the outspokenness of the quakers here.

So let's see...

Slavery was abolished through the persistent work of the quakers,

Shooting COs was abolished through the persistent work of the quakers.

I think anabaptists could learn about how to speak out for righteousness without being political from the quakers! :)

[MadFingerPainter]

no dancing? um why?
can you even dance with your spouse at home?

[ZiSunka]

no dancing? um why?
can you even dance with your spouse at home?

Dancing is sexual. We don't display our sexuality.

I don't think anyone cares what spouses do in their own home. I've never heard of anyone getting in trouble for dancing with their spouse at home with the blinds pulled.

[MadFingerPainter]

cool. i get it. and i agree.

[MrJim]

cool. i get it. and i agree.

I'm glad you're cool with it, since you are holding a skillet and all....:P

[Danfrey]

It's more than CO, it's actively building peace, resisting all attempts to get us engaged in violence of any kind, not supporting capital punishment, speaking out against war.

In the US, consciencious objection is about being released from military service obligations because of religious beliefs.

Hold on.

Let me point out, that this is not a universally held Anabaptist position. There are many Anabaptists who do not oppose the government's authority to wage war and enforce capital punishment.

[Danfrey]

I'm sure we can all agree on absentence issues:

no drinking
no dancing
no sex outside of marriage

right?

Drinking - I don't believe drinking is sinful, only drunkeness. Otherwise Jesus would have been guilty of sin for drinking wine.

Dancing - Don't see this one forbidden in the Bible

Fornication - This one we can agree on

[Danfrey]

Yes, the American government used to shoot COs, too. By the second world war, they stopped doing that, thanks mostly to the outspokenness of the quakers here.

So let's see...

Slavery was abolished through the persistent work of the quakers,

Shooting COs was abolished through the persistent work of the quakers.

I think anabaptists could learn about how to speak out for righteousness without being political from the quakers! :)

Those wonderful Quakers and thier social change. It is a shame God didn't think of it first. :sorry:

[ZiSunka]

Hold on.

Let me point out, that this is not a universally held Anabaptist position. There are many Anabaptists who do not oppose the government's authority to wage war and enforce capital punishment.

All right. I stand corrected. All anabaptists except Danfrey...

[ZiSunka]

Those wonderful Quakers and thier social change. It is a shame God didn't think of it first. :sorry:

Having another contrary day Dan?

[MrJim]

What Dan is saying is that gov't has the right to do as it will and he is correct. I don't have to like what the gov't does, but it is empowered.

This goes back to what I said elsewhere about rebelling against a gov't. It's been empowered by God, whether it's the US or China.

[Danfrey]

You should know by now that all my days are contrary. Actually, I was trying make the same point that I make when people bring up World War II. You now the question, Would you have stood by and let the all those Jews get murdered. Is God big enough to change something without my help? Did he call me to petition the government to feed the hungry, or did he call me to feed the hungry? I see more of Christ in Mother Teresa's activism than I do in Ghandi's. Many modern Mennonites have gone the way of Ghandi.

Let me also point out that I know you believe it is ok to work for change through the government. And, I don't believe it is ok to work for change through the government. So, let me save us the multitude of posts by saying.....

Argument 1
Response 2
Rebuttal 3

I figure if we number them we can save ourselves some typing.

[Danfrey]

I want to make a sidenote here. It is important for our non-Anabaptist friends to understand that there are a variety of views throughout the many Anabaptist churches on our relationship to the government.

[ZiSunka]

What Dan is saying is that gov't has the right to do as it will and he is correct. I don't have to like what the gov't does, but it is empowered.

This goes back to what I said elsewhere about rebelling against a gov't. It's been empowered by God, whether it's the US or China.

Again, it's not like Christians have to choose between allowing government to do whatever it wants and staging open violent rebellion. We are allowed by the system that God put in place to have input into those decisions. We don't have to like what government does, but we don't have to throw up our hands and surrender in impotence.

In 16th century Europe that was true, but in 21st century America, we have other choices.

I am totally perplexed by the idea that government should do whatever it wants when WE are the government!

[Danfrey]

I am totally perplexed by the idea that government should do whatever it wants when WE are the government!

I spent 12 years of my life as part of the government. I don't care to be part of it anymore. I have a hard time understanding how someone can think it is ok to be part of the government and refuse to participate in the military. Kind of like picking and choosing which part is ok to be involved in.

[Danfrey]

Just so everyone is clear. Sometimes it may seem that Walkin and I have pretty course conversations. I just want everyone to know that I do respect her opinions. She backs up what she says with much thought and even though I don't always agree, I can respect her approach. She just happens to catch the arrows that I would normally direct at the larger body of Mennonites in our country. My beliefs differ quite abit from them. This isn't to say that they are bad people, just that I believe some of things have gone in a direction that I am not comfortable with.

[ZiSunka]

I spent 12 years of my life as part of the government. I don't care to be part of it anymore. I have a hard time understanding how someone can think it is ok to be part of the government and refuse to participate in the military. Kind of like picking and choosing which part is ok to be involved in.

What do you mean when you say "part of the government"?

Do you think your bad experience influences your feelings about the government?

As far as I can tell, you are also picking and choosing which parts of the government you think are okay, like the military and executing prisoners.

[ZiSunka]

Just so everyone is clear. Sometimes it may seem that Walkin and I have pretty course conversations. I just want everyone to know that I do respect her opinions. She backs up what she says with much thought and even though I don't always agree, I can respect her approach. She just happens to catch the arrows that I would normally direct at the larger body of Mennonites in our country. My beliefs differ quite abit from them. This isn't to say that they are bad people, just that I believe some of things have gone in a direction that I am not comfortable with.

And I also have the upmost respect for Dan and his thinking. As far as I am concerned, any differences we discuss are for the purpose of coming to a resolution of the truth. :)

I also like to challenge what I see as his propensity to selectively adopt the parts of anabaptist beliefs he likes while disguarding the ones he doesn't agree with.

[MrJim]

you two are fun to watch :P

[ZiSunka]

Let me also point out that I know you believe it is ok to work for change through the government. And, I don't believe it is ok to work for change through the government.

So what is an acceptable way to bring about change in government and the things it does?

If it's wrong to speak out, if it's wrong to vote, if it's wrong to try to influence lawmakers, then i guess all that's left is to have a fatalistic attitude when it comes to government and let things go to hell.

I wonder what God will say to us when we get to heaven--"I gave you the right to vote, why didn't you use it??"

[MrJim]

So what is an acceptable way to bring about change in government and the things it does?

If it's wrong to speak out, if it's wrong to vote, if it's wrong to try to influence lawmakers, then i guess all that's left is to have a fatalistic attitude when it comes to government and let things go to hell.

I wonder what God will say to us when we get to heaven--"I gave you the right to vote, why didn't you use it??"

:DI'd say that the times I used it it didn't work...

Wanna list all the lies the elected officials have told us? Even the "blessed" ones like Carter & the Bushes?

[Danfrey]

You often say that God gave us the right to vote. He must really dislike all of those Christians in countries that don't have the right to vote or he would have given them the right as well.

I would consider my attitude toward government as realistic rather than fatalistic.

What eternal benefit has been gained from Christians voting?

[Jehane]

I don't know but here voting is compulsory; you get chased & fined if you are over 18 & you don't. As Govt., is implemented of God & has no power except what He gives it I figure I can vote with a good conscience. Realistically I don't expect anything to actually change being of the opinion that it doesn't matter wh you vote for a politician always gets in. There are very, very few who hold to Christian principles.

[ZiSunka]

You often say that God gave us the right to vote. He must really dislike all of those Christians in countries that don't have the right to vote or he would have given them the right as well.

Your words, not mine. I would say God gives every society the form of government he thinks is best for them at the time. I don't get where you think I said that God loves some Christians but dislikes others. :scratch: That may be your opinion, but you don't get to foist it on me.


I would consider my attitude toward government as realistic rather than fatalistic.

Realistic? You have the opportunity to do right and you refuse to do it and you think that is realistic? It reminds me of my grandfather, when I told him I wanted to major in science in college, he told me, "Be realistic. Girls aren't capable of having careers in science." Except in your case it seems to be more like, "Be realistic. Citizens aren't capable of having a say their government."


What eternal benefit has been gained from Christians voting?

I don't know. How can we know that anything we do or don't do has an eternal benefit. We won't know that until we see eternity. Voting against abortion would certainly seem to have an eternal benefit, or voting against homosexual marriage, or voting for school vouchers. If Christians refuse to have input into their own laws and lawmakers, that leaves the unsaved to do all the thinking and speaking for us, and that means people believe we do not object to some very onjectionable things. As far as the morality of this nation is concerned, the person who doesn't vote, doesn't count.

[MadFingerPainter]

i can't do my job at work without that frypan.
ya know Menno? ~grin~ i wouldn't hurt a flea. might shake it atcha to scare ya into thinkin i'd belt ya with it though. ~hehe~

[MadFingerPainter]

voting against abortion or homosexual marriages may benefit us eternally but i don't honestly believe this will benefit mankind because sooner or later we will get outvoted and it will go into law regardless. before you guys start throwing things at me...
this is just my opinion based on the things i see happening.

[Danfrey]

The benefits of voting to make abortion illegal do nothing to address the spiritual state of the mothers involved, other than driving them further away from those "right wing Christians"

Making homosexual marriage illegal does nothing to stop homosexuality and does not address the spritual condition of those trapped in a sinful lifestyle.

I can have a much bigger impact in this government or any government for that matter by praying for it's leaders. By doing this I am not yolking myself up with non-believers.

[MrJim]

The benefits of voting to make abortion illegal do nothing to address the spiritual state of the mothers involved, other than driving them further away from those "right wing Christians"

Making homosexual marriage illegal does nothing to stop homosexuality and does not address the spritual condition of those trapped in a sinful lifestyle.

I can have a much bigger impact in this government or any government for that matter by praying for it's leaders. By doing this I am not yolking myself up with non-believers.

These are good points.

Praying is not "not doing anything"...

If we did create a society of "Christian Moral Laws" run by Christian Politicians do we really think we'd have something? And is that what Jesus was after?

That's sorta what those Dominion Theology guys want...

[theAmishGirl]

That's one conservative stand I will never agree with. If we as Christians don't vote, then how will we ever see a change in the government and in the people in the direction it "should" be going?? As my mother always said (I can't believe that I'm quoting my mother on something half-way dealing with religion.) "If you don't vote, don't complain." But if I see a problem with how things are going, I'm gonna complain! and after that I'm gonna do something about it! So therefore- I think we should vote- or we'll never see a change in the world.


"Be the change you wish to see in the world." ~Ghandi

[ZiSunka]

voting against abortion or homosexual marriages may benefit us eternally but i don't honestly believe this will benefit mankind because sooner or later we will get outvoted and it will go into law regardless.

Is this a prediction, or just illogical?:scratch:

[ZiSunka]

The benefits of voting to make abortion illegal do nothing to address the spiritual state of the mothers involved, other than driving them further away from those "right wing Christians"

Making homosexual marriage illegal does nothing to stop homosexuality and does not address the spritual condition of those trapped in a sinful lifestyle.

I can have a much bigger impact in this government or any government for that matter by praying for it's leaders. By doing this I am not yolking myself up with non-believers.

But it's not an "either or" choice. You don't have to choose between voting against legalizing abominations OR evangelizing the population that engages in those abominations.

It isn't even and "either or" when it comes to voting or praying. I constantly do BOTH. You are allowed to pray AND have input into your government.

How is voting yoking yourself up to non-believers? Non-beleivers also shop at stores, and I bet you do that. Non-beleivers also eat, and I bet you do that. Non-believers also drive cars, and I bet you do that. Just because you do something non-believers do doesn't make you yoked to them. You know you are making a complete misapplication of that verse.

[ZiSunka]

These are good points.

Praying is not "not doing anything"...

I never said it was. How can you really say I said that?


If we did create a society of "Christian Moral Laws" run by Christian Politicians do we really think we'd have something? And is that what Jesus was after?

That's sorta what those Dominion Theology guys want...

I didn't say the government needed to be run by Christians and you know that. You have to stop putting words in my mouth. :(

But can you imagine Jesus watching abortions and homosexual marriages and just standing back and saying and doing nothing besides praying? I think he would have said something in one of his sermons, anyway. I don't think Jesus was as big of a separatist as you think he was. He went to public places to do his preaching. He talked to crowds about the truth. He stood at the temple instructing people, he had a huge following of disciples, not because he said he people should ignore the happenings in the world, but because he had relevent things to say about the world.

In a sense, voting is like speaking in public about what is right and what is wrong.

If you aren't going to vote, then at least be like Jesus and speak out in public places.

[Danfrey]

How is voting yoking yourself up to non-believers? Non-beleivers also shop at stores, and I bet you do that. Non-beleivers also eat, and I bet you do that. Non-believers also drive cars, and I bet you do that. Just because you do something non-believers do doesn't make you yoked to them. You know you are making a complete misapplication of that verse.

If I vote for the president I am putting the Commander in Chief in power. How is this not yolking up with a non-believer? Congress is the one that is supposed to send the country to war. What happens when the person you voted for votes to send people to war? Do you claim that the person you voted for in the last election makes decisions based on biblical principles and not party lines?

[Danfrey]

In a sense, voting is like speaking in public about what is right and what is wrong.


Actually, voting is a secret activity. That is what the little booths are for.


If you aren't going to vote, then at least be like Jesus and speak out in public places.

I agree totally with making a public statement about injustice. The best statement to make is doing something about the injustice. You didn't see Mother Teresa protesting yet she made a huge statement about the poorest of poor.

[MrJim]

I never said it was. How can you really say I said that?



I didn't say the government needed to be run by Christians and you know that. You have to stop putting words in my mouth. :(



Oh stop it:hug: I'm not putting words into your mouth and I'm not inferring that you are saying them. They are my quotes.

Don't worry, whey you put your foot in your mouth you'll get all the credit:clap: