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Child of JC

17th August 2006, 06:02 PM

Is there anyone here who once did not have high views of the catholic religion, but has since learnt about it and changed?

My best friend is catholic. We get along great, but we never talk religion. Jesus is our focus. I have a solid stand on issues, and although I would not debate, I have not considered the other side of them either. So here I am, wondering if anyone can enlighten me, and looking to Jesus to soften my heart.

Why is there such pride in the religion? Meaning, why is the religion embraced almost as much as Christ is? Here is an example; my brother-in-law recently started going back to church (catholic). He is changed, it's fantastic! An older sister in the Lord, gave him a book on caticism as a present and signed "welcome home Tony" inside of it. I'm thinking why would you give a new believer anything but the bible? I know this sister loves Christ so I know it was not her intent to take the focus off of Him, but why the need to secure the caticism?

My friend has been coming to church with me. She love it at my church, her kids do too, but she is full of guilt that she is not at a catholic church. I'm like "why are you full of guilt? Does Jesus care where you worship Him?" Why the hold?

My friend's daughter got baptized a month ago. She was baptized as a baby, but decided to be re-baptized at 13. Some members of the church (catholic) are freaked right out. I think would Jesus care that she was re-baptized? No. But they are freaked because it shows that she is not practicing the religion.

My dad was taught as a child that only catholics go to heaven.

What am I missing? Why is there such a focus on the religion?

I'm really not looking for a heated debate, I wont participate. I'm just trying to figure out how unity is possible within the whole body of christ. Let's answer in love.

In Christ,
Bev.

Kepha

17th August 2006, 06:24 PM

My friend has been coming to church with me. She love it at my church, her kids do too, but she is full of guilt that she is not at a catholic church. I'm like "why are you full of guilt? Does Jesus care where you worship Him?" Why the hold?
Does your friend also go to Mass at a Catholic Church during the same Sundays?

My friend's daughter got baptized a month ago. She was baptized as a baby, but decided to be re-baptized at 13. Some members of the church (catholic) are freaked right out.
Acually, if a valid Baptism is performed, the Catholic Church doesn't allow rebaptism. Baptism to us regenerates the soul. It is the Holy Spirit at work. To repbaptize is to say the Holy Spirit didn't do a good enough job in the first place. So the Church has reason to worry. Also, it seems your friend should get back to the faith and study more about her Catholic faith if she believes rebaptism is ok.

Child of JC

17th August 2006, 07:11 PM

Does your friend also go to Mass at a Catholic Church during the same Sundays?

Acually, if a valid Baptism is performed, the Catholic Church doesn't allow rebaptism. Baptism to us regenerates the soul. It is the Holy Spirit at work. To repbaptize is to say the Holy Spirit didn't do a good enough job in the first place. So the Church has reason to worry. Also, it seems your friend should get back to the faith and study more about her Catholic faith if she believes rebaptism is ok.

No she does not go to mass. She attends the morning service, and then we go to praise and worship in the evening. Do you think Jesus would instruct her to attend mass instead of any other chuch? If so, why?

Her daughter was not rebaptized at the catholic church. One thing I realized through all the baptism stuff, is that;
catholic chruch: baptism, then confession
our church: dedication, then baptism
I'm not suggesting that baby baptism and dedication are identical, or confession and adult baptism are either, but there are some similarities. And so you can see how there are different names, but some of the same intentions could have existed in the beginning of the church traditions.

I can assure you that her statment towards God was not "the Holy Spirit didn't do a good enough job in the first place". The church assums this is in peoples hearts, and acts acordingly. When she stands before Him, this will not be against her. She was baptized because of the way that she interprets scripture. She is reading scripture. Seeking God, and trying to obey His commands to the best of her ability. I dont think the church has a reason to worry, she is practicing relationship with Christ.

Why do you refer to practising caticism as "the faith"?

Kepha

17th August 2006, 07:30 PM

No she does not go to mass. She attends the morning service, and then we go to praise and worship in the evening. Do you think Jesus would instruct her to attend mass instead of any other chuch? If so, why?
Well the thing is Child of JC, is that she is Catholic so she should at least believe that the Catholic Church is the same church instituted by Christ and maintained through Apostilic Succession. Also, she is leaving the Holy Eucharist aside for another church.

Her daughter was not rebaptized at the catholic church.
Yeah same thing though. By her doing that she is still doubting what the Catholic Church teaches on Baptism. That is only once. It doesnt even have to be in the Catholic Church as long as it's performed validly.

I can assure you that her statment towards God was not "the Holy Spirit didn't do a good enough job in the first place". The church assumes this is in peoples hearts, and acts acordingly.Well, she was baptized an infant wasnt she? You dont have to be a believer to have the Salvic Graces of the Cross conferred through the waters of Baptism upon an individual before they are held accountable.

I dont think the church has a reason to worry, she is practicing relationship with Christ.
The Church has a reason to worry because it is a member who is starting to wander off into another belief system. Heresy to be blunt.

Why do you refer to practising caticism as "the faith"?
Sorry, I do not understand your question.

Child of JC

17th August 2006, 08:13 PM

Also, it seems your friend should get back to the faith and study more about her Catholic faith if she believes rebaptism is ok.

Do you think because she is not attending mass she has slipped from her faith? Is that faith in God or catholic faith?

Here's what I think; It's all about our relationship with God. I pray because I want to have conversation with Him. I read the Word because it nurishes me. I have authority to use His name because I am His Bride. All my beliefs come from the world but when I began knowing my new friend He began teaching me that some of it was not right, so I adopted His ways and left mine behind. There are some things in my heart, that He has not addressed yet, but if I stood before His throne today would He be displeased with those things? No. Do we punish our kids for things that we did not teach them? (I'm off topic a bit)

Surly I have faith in my Saviour. I know He is pleased with me. Should not the catholic faith be in place with the sole purpose to lead the people to that relationship with Chirst and help people grow in the relationship? Would God be more pleased with me if I found Him through the catholic faith or the catholic church (I'm not sure what the difference is)? And if God is not going to be more pleased, then why does it matter at all?

Mskedi

17th August 2006, 08:45 PM

One of the reasons I couldn't become Catholic when I was considering it is because they don't recognize my baptism and I do not believe in rebaptism, so they're certainly not the only ones with that particular hangup. :)

And as far as the catecism gift... it's not something instead of the Bible. It contains explanations of the faith in a much shorter form. There's nothing wrong with it. If anything, it makes things easier when you're considering converting because all the beliefs are laid out for you right there and you can address any questions or problems immediately instead of finding out years down the line that your congregation is full of bigots (er... personal bitterness there) and use the Bible to back that up.

Out of curiosity... why was the daughter rebaptized instead of confirmed?

Monica02

17th August 2006, 08:52 PM

Do you think because she is not attending mass she has slipped from her faith? Is that faith in God or catholic faith?

Here's what I think; It's all about our relationship with God. I pray because I want to have conversation with Him. I read the Word because it nurishes me. I have authority to use His name because I am His Bride. All my beliefs come from the world but when I began knowing my new friend He began teaching me that some of it was not right, so I adopted His ways and left mine behind. There are some things in my heart, that He has not addressed yet, but if I stood before His throne today would He be displeased with those things? No. Do we punish our kids for things that we did not teach them? (I'm off topic a bit)

Surly I have faith in my Saviour. I know He is pleased with me. Should not the catholic faith be in place with the sole purpose to lead the people to that relationship with Chirst and help people grow in the relationship? Would God be more pleased with me if I found Him through the catholic faith or the catholic church (I'm not sure what the difference is)? And if God is not going to be more pleased, then why does it matter at all?

Your friend is sinning by not going to Holy Mass. She needs the Eucharist to sustain her and she is missing this every week. The Catholic Church (BTY - this should be capitalized - I do not know if you simply do not know this or if you want to insult Catholics) has all seven sacraments to lead people to a deeper relatiohnship with Christ.

Kepha

18th August 2006, 09:22 AM

Do you think because she is not attending mass she has slipped from her faith? Is that faith in God or catholic faith?
Her Catholic faith is from God so she is in disobediance to His Will by not attending Mass.

Here's what I think; It's all about our relationship with God. I pray because I want to have conversation with Him. I read the Word because it nurishes me. I have authority to use His name because I am His Bride. All my beliefs come from the world but when I began knowing my new friend He began teaching me that some of it was not right, so I adopted His ways and left mine behind. There are some things in my heart, that He has not addressed yet, but if I stood before His throne today would He be displeased with those things? No. Do we punish our kids for things that we did not teach them? (I'm off topic a bit)

Surly I have faith in my Saviour. I know He is pleased with me. Should not the catholic faith be in place with the sole purpose to lead the people to that relationship with Chirst and help people grow in the relationship? Would God be more pleased with me if I found Him through the catholic faith or the catholic church (I'm not sure what the difference is)? And if God is not going to be more pleased, then why does it matter at all?

Basically, she is Catholic, and really we are talking about your friend and her guilt. I'm just saying that she being a Catholic is doing absolutely the wrong thing by leaving the Church God has established for 2000 years.

And about the Baptism thing, if performed improperly, it was never a Baptism in the first place so the Church doesn't "Rebaptize" but will Correct the first attempted one if She needs to.

stivvy

18th August 2006, 11:23 AM

[quote=Child of JC]Do you think because she is not attending mass she has slipped from her faith? Is that faith in God or catholic faith? ....quote]

I think this is it right there. Explore this statement...

It isn't a loss of faith, it is a loss of the gifts! There are so many sacriments given to us by Jesus through the sacriments and through the traditions of the church. Be assured, the Catholic faith is ALL ABOUT CHRIST! His birth, life and resurrection from the dead.

When one is outside the faith, we know they are not growing in Christ through all that the mother church has formulated through the Holy Spirit through the ages.

I urge you to try exploring the Catholic Faith from this perspective. Attend the services, study the sacriments, and then then traditions. Know that the bible is one of many tools we use. It was givent ot he world through catholic church but it was never intended to stop there. Faith in God and the Trinity is a living thing and you must observe that after Christ Assended that new miricles conintued and new event happened and even after the last book of the bible, after the last word writen, miricles still happen and do to this day. It is all about God. Our passion is with Him and we celebrate it through the Catholic church and it's great traditions.

Child of JC

18th August 2006, 02:09 PM

Your friend is sinning by not going to Holy Mass. She needs the Eucharist to sustain her and she is missing this every week. The Catholic Church (BTY - this should be capitalized - I do not know if you simply do not know this or if you want to insult Catholics) has all seven sacraments to lead people to a deeper relatiohnship with Christ. Do I need the Eucharist to sustain me every week? Or do just Catholics need it? What are the seven sacraments? Do all christians follow this path to a deeper relationship?

Child of JC

18th August 2006, 02:16 PM

Out of curiosity... why was the daughter rebaptized instead of confirmed?I'm not sure. I do know that she is not attending mass, and that she does not want to leave the church she is in.

Child of JC

18th August 2006, 02:23 PM

Her Catholic faith is from God so she is in disobediance to His Will by not attending Mass.

So the belief is that God gives us faith in a denomination, and we are destined to serve Him there? I think Faith comes from God to believe in Him, and we choose a denomination that suits our, style, so to speak. Some like tradtion, some dont, some like this type of worship or that. All is good I think as long as it is a bible believing, Christ glorifying place.

Monica02

18th August 2006, 02:51 PM

Do I need the Eucharist to sustain me every week? Or do just Catholics need it? What are the seven sacraments? Do all christians follow this path to a deeper relationship?

You may not partake of the Eucharist until you become Catholic but yes indeed it will help sustain your faith.
The sacraments are the Eucharist, Holy Orders, Marriage, Reconcilliation, Confirmation, Baptism and the Last Rites. Most other Christian faiths do not have all seven of the sacraments.

major_minor

18th August 2006, 07:26 PM

Get 10 doctors in the same room, you'll invarioubly get 6-8 different opinions.

Get 10 athiests in a room, you get several varying opinions.

Get 10 libelarls in a room, you get chaos.

Get 10 kids in a room, you get a mess.

Get 10 christians in a room, you get a debate.

Get 12 apostles, and you get miracles, signs, and wonders.

If we forego the minor stuff...which I fail to do at times as well, and focus on the major ..JESUS CHRIST, ..the rest will follow.

Catholic infant baptism vs Adult baptism?
Rosary vs. free unrehearsed prayer?
Trinity vs Unitaririan?
Tongues or silent prayer?
Suit or jeans?
Priest or Pastor?
Communion once a week, or once a quarter?
Wine or grape juice?
Transubstantition or In Loving Memory?
uh oh..
Is my church older and more righteous or We ar One Body, One Mind, and of One accord(not honda)?
NONE of the above are heaven/hell issues, yet we fight like cats and dogsall in order to say.."I am right, you are wrong? Why is it we try to judge, and send one another to hell in some sort of sick and twissted Russian Roulette or "Spin the Bible" and see who wins?

DO you accept Jesus? Do you live under Grace to live by the laws? Have you repented and been baptised? These are what matter...let God so judge the rest!

JMHO
MM

Kepha

18th August 2006, 09:19 PM

So the belief is that God gives us faith in a denomination, and we are destined to serve Him there?
The Catholic Church is not a denomination. Denominations came out of Her. God gave us her as a way of recieving Important Sacraments such as the Holy Eucharist, Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Orders, Reconciliation (confessing serious sins to His ministers), and Annointing of the sick. The Truths teached by the Apostles were handed and passed down to thier successors. It is the Pope in unity with these Successors, who make sure these truths are kept.

I think Faith comes from God to believe in Him, and we choose a denomination that suits our, style, so to speak. Some like tradtion, some dont, some like this type of worship or that. All is good I think as long as it is a bible believing, Christ glorifying place.
This is no doubt sad but true because of the many denominations of Bible alone believers with their own interpretations all believing they are being led by the Spirit of Truth. It seems unfortunate your friend is loosing Her faith in the Church. It seems to me she never had a good grasp of her faith to begin with, or she wouldn't be so easily led astray by the appeal of another church. Does she even know what the Holy Eucharist is?

Kepha

18th August 2006, 09:21 PM

Child of JC

18th August 2006, 09:27 PM

Does she even know what the Holy Eucharist is?I know I dont. Do tell.:)

Child of JC

18th August 2006, 10:05 PM

If Christ's Apostles taught you personally, that you need to confess to a priest, that you need to be Baptised, that you need the Holy Eucharist for spiritual nourishment, do you really believe this is something not worthy of defending? Even if they stated the importance of it? I find this hard to believe.Alot of people (myself included) would not agree that the apostles would teach this. Confess to eachother (James 5:16) yes, but the bible does not say that it must be done with a priest. Baptism, a sign of repentance (Mat 3:13-15), a sign of conversion (Mat 28:16-20) "repent and be baptized" (Acts 2:38). Is the Holy Eucharist the bread? We are commanded to partake in the Lord's supper in remembrance. Jesus is the bread of life, the Lord's supper has nothing to do with what we physically put in our mouths but what is in our hearts. (:scratch: If this is not the Lord's supper, :blush: ...:help: )And so there would be no difference to God between that delicous little wafer and a ritz cracker.

These "debates", should be done with a right heart. Should we attempt to sort out all the religious junk that has divided man for centuries? No I dont think so, but we can learn from eachother, and in that process build relationship and that brings unity. I thinks it's ok to discuss these things, as long as we love eachother in the process. This is possible, after all there really is only one side, there is no division in Christ's body. (Dont wanna sound super saintly, I do have the ability to act in anger, but I'm learning;) )

major_minor

18th August 2006, 10:36 PM

major_minor

18th August 2006, 11:25 PM

[The Catholic Church is not a denomination. Denominations came out of Her. God gave us her as a way of recieving Important Sacraments such as the Holy Eucharist, Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Orders, Reconciliation (confessing serious sins to His ministers), and Annointing of the sick. The Truths teached by the Apostles were handed and passed down to thier successors. It is the Pope in unity with these Successors, who make sure these truths are kept. Really? My Bible says differently...of course, I know my Bible came from God, written by men. You claim yours came from men, in the name of God?!?! My church came from its Head, its leader, and the One who died for her...Jesus Christ. The Roman Catholic Church came from Ceasar, who used the following from the Christians in Rome to Control them thru goverment. The RCC was completly and TOTALLY dictated by the Roman goverment for centuries. Which of course why most people got out to get away from then..not now...govermental-controlled religion.
Lets review the list:
1)THe Eucharist came from Jesus..perhaps you may have heard of a place called the Upper Room?
2) Baptism, Maybe John the Baptist or Jesus rings a bell here?
3)Confirmation-recieving the Holy Spirit..nope, again, Jesus.
4)Holy Order(ie-begetting the position of priest, bishop, deacon) No..I remember this in acts....so again, not from the Roman Catholic church.
5)Reconsiliation-confessing of sins to a minister(BTW, the word minister is a DIRECT quote from newadvent & catholic.com..FYI) I confess my sins to Jesus..The Great High Priest. If I sin against a Bro or Sis, I confess my sin to both them & Jesus. ..So again, this did NOT come from the RCC.
6) Annointing the Sick- Holy Oil being used was NOT from the RCC, again found in the Bible.

UUMM...So God is a liar? God forbid! Jesus told me, along with 12 guys who were with Him for 3 years, that If I confess and believeon Jesus Christ, repent of my sin, be baptised in Jesus' name, and live according to knowlege in God's Grace..I am in effect a minister of the gospel. God will chaten His own. There was no Pope until the induction of the Orthodox Roman Church. (Not to be confused with todays Orthodoxy)Furthermore, Jesus promised me, and many, that once done, the Holy Spirit would come and dwell within you. Through prayer, fasting, and supplication, we would be renewd daily, dying to the flesh, and nourished in our Spirit, being more like the Father.

This is no doubt sad but true because of the many denominations of Bible alone believers with their own interpretations all believing they are being led by the Spirit of Truth. It seems unfortunate your friend is loosing Her faith in the Church. It seems to me she never had a good grasp of her faith to begin with, or she wouldn't be so easily led astray by the appeal of another church. Does she even know what the Holy Eucharist is?
See, and I post this openly to the Mods of this forum...like this or not, it IS truth>

THere is a reality the Roman Catholics alone must come to. I told you in the beginning Kepha, I was RCC for MANY years...so you will have to do MUCH MORE that quote me the cute little sayings from CCC and the Q&A defense book published by the Cardinal & Bishops. You also must come to the reality...There is a tremendous and substantial difference between the catholic church, and that of Rome. They are not one in the same. Rome would have you believe they are, but they are not. You also may need to study Roman History back during the Rule of Rome and the Roman Empire. The Church was used and forced converts..it was 99.9% political, and 1 % Business. There was not Spirit in her. Today I am happy to say, that has changed,. SHe still is run more or less as a busiess, but MANY within the walls of her churches are striving to follow after God, but some are misled due to tradtions and false teachings. Remember the Nicene creed?( I took this from newadvent.com. I intentionally left the hyperlinks in, to dorect you to direct Catholic teachings in regards to the Creed. Also note, it says this is a Christian Creed, adopted by the RCC and protestants. You may ALSO want to read the changes made to the Creed by Rome )

We believe (I believe) in one God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm), the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm), the only begotten Son of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14142b.htm), and born of the Father before all ages. (God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm)) light of light, true God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) of true God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm). Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12083c.htm), suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01767a.htm), sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12792a.htm) and the life of the world to come. Amen."

I disagree with nothing in there. Notice what it does not say? (Mods..please forgive me, but this must be done..and, if not mistaken, is not blasphemy)

We believe (I believe) in one God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm), the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm), the only begotten Son of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14142b.htm), and born of the Father before all ages,and the Pope (vicar)as Jesus' representation on earth,. (God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm)) light of light, true God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) of true God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm). Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12083c.htm), suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the the church in Rome(who shall be hallowed and exalted). And ascended into heaven (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01767a.htm), sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son, and the Pope; that is the Roman Church, is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, Roman catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12792a.htm) and the life of the world to come. Amen."

Now, that was meant to prove a point..the church in Rome, of Rome, thru Rome is not the umbilical cord of Jesus Christ> Christ is the Head of the Church. The Holy Spirit is Christ's Vicar on Earth. That is reality.

If you wish, I will continue this debate...but dont come to me with something out of the CCC oor s document, written of men, by men, for men, and say that becase a person employed or serving in the Roman church says its so, that that makes it gospel truth.

My Bible says ALL people who accept Jesus as Lord and Savior...and so on...not thse of any particular denom or religion.

I do applogize if I seem harsh..I am simply being blunt. You dare to question her faith, all because she lleft the RCC? Pharisee and hypocrit? Do you not know with what weight you judge, you shall also be judged? I stand here and hide not behind a religion, or teaching and tradiotion of man, but stand firmlyon the Word of God, given by God for His people.

Kepha

20th August 2006, 11:43 AM

Really? My Bible says differently...of course, I know my Bible came from God, written by men.Says who? Oh that's right, your Bible written by men.

You claim yours came from men, in the name of God?!?! My church came from its Head, its leader, and the One who died for her...Jesus Christ.
Your church. You mean the many conflicting so called faithful believers of the Bible only? Well God Bless your church. :bow: Oh that's right though, you only believe in the important doctrines, the others are not, unless of course you believe in them. :doh:

The Roman Catholic Church came from Ceasar, who used the following from the Christians in Rome to Control them thru goverment.
lol, your reading too much jack chick my man.

1)THe Eucharist came from Jesus..perhaps you may have heard of a place called the Upper Room?
Really, i'm sure learning something here. Of course it came from Christ.
2) Baptism, Maybe John the Baptist or Jesus rings a bell here? It sure does. However His was not the same as the Baptism Christ gave us. It was there to get us ready for the real thing.
As for the rest, obviously God instituted the Sacraments. It seems your just saying this to sound like you actually know something. Just to puff up your post with words that do not conflict with Catholicism. However, the point you miss is these Sacraments, have been down played and even out right rejected by sola scripturists like yourselves. The true meaning is lost in your own fallible interpretating. Such a shame.

UUMM...So God is a liar? God forbid! Jesus told me, along with 12 guys who were with Him for 3 years, that If I confess and believeon Jesus Christ, repent of my sin, be baptised in Jesus' name, and live according to knowlege in God's Grace.
Liar? God didnt say anything. The Bible doesnt speak to you, you interprete. So it isnt God who is decieving but you. Your picking out verses and instituting them as fact. You pick and choose. The Bible fits perfectly with the Dogmatic teaching of Catholicism. And about you being a Catholic.......forgive me for saying this but you did not know your 'stuff' when you were or you wouldnt be spouting out the same anti Catholic garbage we see over and over. The beautiful thing happening to the Church of today is that though we may loose uneducated Catholics, we gain educated Catholics amongst the ex protestants converts. God's Graces working over the sin of protestantism 500 years ago.

“Where sin abounds, grace does much more abound.”

major_minor

20th August 2006, 01:49 PM

Kepha

20th August 2006, 11:31 PM

major_minor

20th August 2006, 11:43 PM

Thats fine. Our debate is over however I still have a question to answer from the original thead maker. The Church will be here till the end of the World. I have God's promise, you got zippo.Lets go back to Erwins original debate rules. I'll ask questions, you answer, and then cross examine. Then I will do the same. OK?

Go:

1) What does the RCC have that no tother church has or can posess to obtain heaven?

2) What does the RCC have that I as a non RCC can not get because I am not a church member to get to heaven?

3) What has the RCC done to block a nonRCC from communicating to Jesus Christ?

4) What does the RCC have that a KJV Bible does not, as it relates to salvation?

5) You say the RCC is the oldest, you say it is THE ONE. What proof do YOU personally have to support your claim? (in your possesion) And also, what, if any, do you know of the founding, and history of the Roman Church?

Your turn>>

leothelioness

11th September 2006, 02:33 AM

I have God's promise, you got zippo.

Wow, you sure are a nice chap. :help:

So are you saying that you are the only one that has God's promise?

willard3

11th September 2006, 12:32 PM

http://img3.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/th.80a0ce18b1.jpg (http://img3.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?80a0ce18b1.jpg)

Major_minor, I just fail to see how your original post intended to present a reasonable debate. Really, all I saw apart from standard Protestant anti-Catholic arguments was a bunch of flamebaiting. The whole Nicene Creed thing was just mean-spirited and nasty. If a debate is, as you say, "questions, answers, and cross-examining", then you failed spectacularly with your original post, since it was incredibly holier-than-thou, which is not conducive to a good debate.

Granted, Kepha did not respond very civilly (sp?) either. A couple points he made were good, but overall it was a poor post. Though I'm not blaming you entirely, you did have some part in provoking his response (see my above bit about flamebaiting).

If you haven't been here before, I suggest you check out http://www.ourcatholicfaith.org/reasons.html. Ignore the whole "and you should be too" deal, because I'm not trying to convert you. I'm linking you there so you can understand better.

*Pretend mod hat on*
Please don't flamebait in the future.
*Pretend mod hat off*

stone

12th September 2006, 11:22 AM

questioning catholic tradition is a sure fast way to get warnings around here. Debateing with them is a bit challengeing, that is to stay within the rules, for me it is anyrate.

It's better and maintains a less hostile environment on a thread to just ask questions, collect your data, and compare it to scripture.

A good question would be like, "why is the ten commandments pinned to the wall at my catholic church not the same as the ten commandments given to Moses from g-d?"

I would ask the questions to catholics in their own forum and then again in the theology forum and compare the answers to others. You'll find that there are others that are not catholics that have the same beliefs as them and at the same time you'll find good arguments that proove otherwise.

Today i can compare debateing with those of rcc and their beliefs as that of debateing evolution with an atheist.

peace

MissKittyFantastico

13th September 2006, 03:28 AM

Child of JC :wave:- I am going to do my best to answer your questions…
I am not going to debate about what is right and what is wrong. I am going to tell you about my experience in a similar situation.

I was a part of an AOG church which I loved and still love. My best friend is a Catholic, a solid one at that, we would have endless discussions about faith and churches and who was right and who was wrong.
I had no appreciation for the Catholic Church. To be completely honest I thought it was as boring as all hell and that it was the LAST denomination I would ever want to be a part of.
We used to debate into the small hours of the night… Still talk about it now.
I joined her youth group, which happened to be Catholic, it was the best thing I ever did. I learnt a lot about the Catholic Church. I didn’t agree with many things, but I liked the people so I stayed.
Slowly over time, my thoughts and opinions started to change. I started going to Mass weekly as well as my church, and it was fantastic.
My best friend used to come to church with me. She really liked it, but felt that she was missing out on something. I never understood what that could have been, at least not until about 6 months ago.
In May this year I made the decision to become a Catholic. Much to a lot of people’s disgust. I was ridiculed and told I was stupid. I have many reasons for converting, which I am happy to share with you if you would like. The main thing was the Eucharist, communion, last supper, whatever you want to call it. That is what is missing from a protestant service. At Mass we receive Jesus… that is the most amazing thing EVER. Trust me.

Is your friend a practicing Catholic? Does she normally go to Mass??? If she is feeling a lot of guilt about not going, maybe offer to go to Mass with her. Experience Jesus in a different way, with your friend. This will not only show your friend that you love her and respect her beliefs, but show her that you support her. If she does want to return to the Church, please don’t make her feel like she is doing something wrong. This is not the case, God may have placed this on her heart, and you cannot know what is right for someone else. Pray for her, pray for yourself. Ask God to help you see the Catholic Church as He does. Don’t listen to bigoted peoples opinions about Catholics. If you want to know about Catholics ask a Catholic. Just like if you want to know about Aussie’s you ask an Aussie, not an American.

I think the best thing you can do as a friend is to support her in any way she needs. Even if you don’t agree with it.

Child of JC, if you have any questions about what I have posted, I would be more than happy to answer them… You can also PM me if you would like!!! ;)

My prayers are with you… :crossrc:

plmarquette

22nd December 2006, 01:48 PM

.... let us pray .... let us kneel ... let us slow down and consider :

the word koiniea ... rendered lord's supper or eucharist is rendered far more in the gospel as community , commune , communicate , brethren , or fellowship than communion ...

in the gospel , the 12 pointed out that others were preaching , teaching , and healing in his name ...

Jesus said let them alone , for those who are not against us , are for us ( if they did not believe , if the Holy Spirit did not anoint them , how could they do what they did , as Peter discovered in acts 9 & 10 about the gentiles )

90% of these arguements are symantics ... we argue about names , applications , organizations ... but in practice , we basically do the same things ...

doesn't it say that daily , the 12 studied the word of God .... not read ... but studied , related , discussed ...

catholics break bread and protestants teach the word both are missing part of the origianal celebration of the word of god -- john 1.14 ... Jesus

if they are in church , a christian church , that goes out and does the corporal works of mercy , and shares their faith ... they are doing far more than 75% of their christian brethren ...

.... they haven't been sucked in by scientology , christian science , islam , buddahism , taosism , bahi , etc. ... false religions

Dust and Ashes

23rd December 2006, 09:01 AM

THe Eucharist does not give you spiritual nourishment...God's Word does, Jesus said so Himself.

There is a lot of irony in this statement and the way it is written.

The Eucharist does not give you spiritual nourishment...

What do Catholics and Orthodox consider the Eucharist to be? The very Body and Blood of Christ. Since we are not Nestorians, we believe that Christ's Body and Blood are, in truth, Him. The Eucharist was given to us as a spiritual medicine "for the healing of body and soul" as is said in the Divine Liturgy.

God's Word does, Jesus said so Himself.

I'm assuming, since you capitalized Word that you are referring to the Son, the second Person of the Trinity. That being so, the Eucharist is the Word of God since it is His Body and Blood.

Now, in regards to the OP:

"To whom much is given, much is required."

If your friend was instructed in and baptized into the Catholic faith then she is responsible for the truth that has been given her. If she departs from the Catholic faith, she will be held accountable for leaving truth for error. That is probably a grave oversimplification and based on Orthodox teaching rather than RC teaching but I think it still basically applies.

I spent 12 years as an earnestly seeking Protestant before I stumbled across the Orthodox Church here on CF. I had gone from OSAS Baptist to Pentecostal in my search for a true, deep spirituality. Apostolic Christianity has a much deeper spirituality than anything I ever experienced before and this is by orders of magnitude. If I could not be Orthodox, I would most certainly be Roman Catholic.

I have developed a very deep respect for the RCC since becoming Orthodox and have come to learn that much of what I'd "known" about the RCC as Protestant was simply erroneous and based on the prejudice of others who passed on those beliefs without bothering to really investigate them.

That said, there are many significant differences between the EOC and the RCC so please don't make assumptions on what I'm saying about anything. I don't know a lot about RC teachings so I'll just let it be at that. Peace.

Forgive me.

Child of JC

23rd December 2006, 12:19 PM

I thought this tread was long gone!!

My brother in law has just started to go back to church (Catholic) in the recent months. He wanted to debate with me, but I said that I would not. He said that we are very different, and I asked him if we could just meet at the heart of God. That is where we have found our meeting point! It's a good point......

plmarquette

26th December 2006, 02:06 PM

Sacrament ( ordinance , command , event decreed by God remember or do , as Jesus said about the Lord's supper )

Catholic Sacraments ( source of God's grace ) :baptism -water ; baptism - spirit (confirmation ) ; matrimony (marriage ); holy orders ( eph 4.11) ; extreme unction ( James 5.15 ); Pennance ( 1 John 1.9) ; Communion ( Lord's supper Jn 6.50-56 ).

Paul states that Communion (koinea - commune , community , communicate , communion , lord's supper , brethren ) is a daily effort ( like lord's prayer & manna in the desert ) ... forgive , intercede , pray , speak , refresh , renew ...

DivineFiliation

28th December 2006, 06:55 PM

I confess to Jesus Christ..the Great High Priest. I can assure ou He is greater than ANY priest within the RCC or any church for that matter.

I was baptised in the name of Jesus Christ..AFTER I repented of my sins.

THe Eucharist does not give you spiritual nourishment...God's Word does, Jesus said so Himself.

Now..WHAT praytell in the MINOR questions I stated earlier has ANYTHING to do with the above...I would like to know please?
Regarding the comment of the eucharist not giving us spiritual nurishment...

Jesus said, "Take and eat. This is my body. It will be given up for you and for many so your sins may be forgiven." Without partaking of communion, my sins will not be forgiven. And by saying AMEN, it means I believe in what Jesus said.

DivineFiliation

28th December 2006, 07:05 PM

I have a few personal comments to add to this thread:

My brother is a non-practicing Catholic who was rebaptized in a Baptist church. He got baptised because he believed that he needed to in order to be SAVED. His one act of having that baptism states that he did not believe he could be SAVED in the Catholic church.

What I would like to point out/ask is where non-Catholic Christians think they originated from? Obviously there was some kind of community of people that called themselves something before Martin Luther nailed his list to the door... it's called the Catholic church and that is your history as well as our history. Martin Luther had some great points, don't get me wrong. But, I know if I was in your position I would wonder how my "community" came about and why they keep splitting and splitting and splintering.

My sister-in-law talks a lot like you. And I love her for loving Jesus so much and loving her presonal relationship with God. However, she doesn't understand that by inviting me to go to her church, I don't consider it my only church event for the day... I have to still go to mass, which is where they serve my Lord's body and I have to eat it because he says so.

And she doesn't understand why I cannot seem to pray and/or concentrate on praying when there's a rock band up there playing Christian rock songs that I don't know.

And she also doesn't understand why I don't feel the need to be SAVED in her sense of the word.

And I cannot explain these things very clearly. It's in my blood. It's in my history. Trust me, I tried to leave it... more than once. And here I am, still Catholic and still believing all the things Catholics are supposed to and praying really really really hard on those things I don't understand.

thereselittleflower

9th January 2007, 02:25 AM

Is there anyone here who once did not have high views of the catholic religion, but has since learnt about it and changed?

Hi . . I am late to this thread, but yes, I am one such person . .there are others here at CF too, however, we usually do not frequent this forum. :)

My best friend is catholic. We get along great, but we never talk religion. Jesus is our focus. I have a solid stand on issues, and although I would not debate, I have not considered the other side of them either. So here I am, wondering if anyone can enlighten me, and looking to Jesus to soften my heart.

If you get back to this thread, just let me know what it is you would like to know . . I can tell you there are numerous misunderstandigs regarding Catholicism, most of which I held to and had to overcome.

Why is there such pride in the religion? Meaning, why is the religion embraced almost as much as Christ is? Here is an example; my brother-in-law recently started going back to church (catholic). He is changed, it's fantastic! An older sister in the Lord, gave him a book on caticism as a present and signed "welcome home Tony" inside of it. I'm thinking why would you give a new believer anything but the bible? I know this sister loves Christ so I know it was not her intent to take the focus off of Him, but why the need to secure the caticism?

OK . . look at what you said . . He is chnged, it's fantastic!

That alone is reason enough. :)

The bible must be interpreted. The Catechism provides a unified, logical and meaningful way to interpret it that is consistant with the beliefs, practices and teaching of the Early Church.

As you have seen, having this tool at his disposal has helped your brother-in-law to become a changed man.

My friend has been coming to church with me. She love it at my church, her kids do too, but she is full of guilt that she is not at a catholic church. I'm like "why are you full of guilt? Does Jesus care where you worship Him?" Why the hold?

Because, and here is where many get offended, but you have asked an honest answer and I want to give you an honest answer . . .Your church does not have the Eucharist, the Real Presence. Your church does not have all the teachings of the Catholic faith that she knows she is to hold to. She needs to be in a Catholic Church in order to participate fully in the life of the Church. Your church may be absolutely wonderful, don't get me wrong. . . I was part of the most wonderful non-denominational church ever, just before I started on my totally unexpected journey into Catholicism. So I understand how she could be attracted to you church and why you would be confused.

My friend's daughter got baptized a month ago. She was baptized as a baby, but decided to be re-baptized at 13. Some members of the church (catholic) are freaked right out. I think would Jesus care that she was re-baptized? No. But they are freaked because it shows that she is not practicing the religion.

Actually, there is a problem with getting re-baptized. . . There is only ONE Baptism for the remission of sins . . . When one gets rebatized, they are in effect saying that the ONE Baptism, the Baptism they originally received, a gift and grace from God, is no better than garbage to be tossed on the dung heap. When one gets rebaptized, that is what they are saying about their first baptism.

The Catholic Church teaches that Baptism leaves an indellible mark on the soul, that it is the sacrament of the new birth. This is extremely important to the Catholic Church and so it is no wonder that some of the Catholics were 'freaked out'. It is a grave issue to declare your first baptism was no good by the act of getting rebaptized.

I was originally baptized in the Orthodox Church as in done in the Catholic Church. I was rebaptized at the age of 17, probably for the same reasons your friend's daughter was, on Easter Morning in the Pacific Ocean in Hawaii. I deeply regret it now. I did not understand what the issue was until several years ago, but when i did it, I felt something wasn't quite right. All my protestant friends assured me that I had done the right thing.

My dad was taught as a child that only catholics go to heaven.

He was taught wrong, I am sorry. The Catholic Church cannot say who will be in heaven . . .only God is the final judge. Many Catholics probably won't be in heaven as many Protestants probably won't be in heaven, and many that we all think won't be, may be. :)

What am I missing? Why is there such a focus on the religion?

What you are mistaking as a focus on religion (as if religion is a bad thing) is actually a strong focus on the Christian faith, the way it was transmitted down to us from the Apostles. It is simply the result of misunderstandings of what Catholicism is, that makes it seem that we are focusing on something other than Jesus and the Christian faith. :)

I'm really not looking for a heated debate, I wont participate. I'm just trying to figure out how unity is possible within the whole body of christ. Let's answer in love.

In Christ,
Bev.

Bev, if I may recommend something . . ask for this to be moved into the OBOB forum, or start a new thread there . . . then you will have open access to the Catholic membership here who can answer your questions and help you understand what we believe and why so you can better understand your friend and her Catholic background.

:)

.

Child of JC

9th January 2007, 02:44 PM

THank you for your soft love filled answers! God Bless you Indeed!!!

Renton405

9th January 2007, 06:43 PM

This is closed. A debate is one based on evidence, proof, and substance.

You have again failed to do so, and have resulted to attacked me. I am not offended, I am greatful, "for this shall they hate you, just as they hated Me."

I am unsure of your age, tho it matters not. I do know you do not know your RCC history, just a generational believer. I do grant the RCC has been around for a long time...so was the Roman empire. You too shall fall.

The RCC hasn't fallen for 2000 plus years. I has stayed strong and hasnt changed its view on anything..Over 1 BILLION strong cemented Catholics. One thing that I am sure over, is that the Catholic Church will NEVER fall, because Jesus said to Peter whom the foundation of the church was to be built on that the "gates of hell will not provail against it"

But have been many protestant denominations that have fallen and false prophesized.

The seventh day adventists believe Jesus would come in the year 1800 around. Look what happened..this here shows the fruits of protestantism..

The Catholic church has been against abortion since the begining. Protestants were too, but now they made a 360 and decided its ok. Does God really make mistakes like that? "Oh, it dosen't work for us now, so lets change it"..thats something the Catholic Church never does. It always remains cement and firm in its doctrine, not flaky and wishy washy..

Jesus warned about false prophets

There is one catholic church..

there are 30,000 protestant denominations

As Jesus said "How can a nation stand if its divided against itself"..

The apostle Peter said we cannot interperate scripture on our own, and that it leads to our destruction. One verse could mean something for another person..This is the main reason why there r so many denominations in protestantism today..

Child of JC

9th January 2007, 10:06 PM

We can argue over religion, but none of if will glorify God. "The way we do it, is better than the way you do it"??? I'm not at all confused as I was when I started this thread.
One God, One Heart, Let's Go to IT! Meet ya there.....

Ravenonthecross

18th January 2007, 06:42 PM

Really? My Bible says differently...of course, I know my Bible came from God, written by men. You claim yours came from men, in the name of God?!?! My church came from its Head, its leader, and the One who died for her...Jesus Christ. The Roman Catholic Church came from Ceasar, who used the following from the Christians in Rome to Control them thru goverment. The RCC was completly and TOTALLY dictated by the Roman goverment for centuries. Which of course why most people got out to get away from then..not now...govermental-controlled religion.
Lets review the list:
1)THe Eucharist came from Jesus..perhaps you may have heard of a place called the Upper Room?
2) Baptism, Maybe John the Baptist or Jesus rings a bell here?
3)Confirmation-recieving the Holy Spirit..nope, again, Jesus.
4)Holy Order(ie-begetting the position of priest, bishop, deacon) No..I remember this in acts....so again, not from the Roman Catholic church.
5)Reconsiliation-confessing of sins to a minister(BTW, the word minister is a DIRECT quote from newadvent & catholic.com..FYI) I confess my sins to Jesus..The Great High Priest. If I sin against a Bro or Sis, I confess my sin to both them & Jesus. ..So again, this did NOT come from the RCC.
6) Annointing the Sick- Holy Oil being used was NOT from the RCC, again found in the Bible.

UUMM...So God is a liar? God forbid! Jesus told me, along with 12 guys who were with Him for 3 years, that If I confess and believeon Jesus Christ, repent of my sin, be baptised in Jesus' name, and live according to knowlege in God's Grace..I am in effect a minister of the gospel. God will chaten His own. There was no Pope until the induction of the Orthodox Roman Church. (Not to be confused with todays Orthodoxy)Furthermore, Jesus promised me, and many, that once done, the Holy Spirit would come and dwell within you. Through prayer, fasting, and supplication, we would be renewd daily, dying to the flesh, and nourished in our Spirit, being more like the Father.

See, and I post this openly to the Mods of this forum...like this or not, it IS truth>

THere is a reality the Roman Catholics alone must come to. I told you in the beginning Kepha, I was RCC for MANY years...so you will have to do MUCH MORE that quote me the cute little sayings from CCC and the Q&A defense book published by the Cardinal & Bishops. You also must come to the reality...There is a tremendous and substantial difference between the catholic church, and that of Rome. They are not one in the same. Rome would have you believe they are, but they are not. You also may need to study Roman History back during the Rule of Rome and the Roman Empire. The Church was used and forced converts..it was 99.9% political, and 1 % Business. There was not Spirit in her. Today I am happy to say, that has changed,. SHe still is run more or less as a busiess, but MANY within the walls of her churches are striving to follow after God, but some are misled due to tradtions and false teachings. Remember the Nicene creed?( I took this from newadvent.com. I intentionally left the hyperlinks in, to dorect you to direct Catholic teachings in regards to the Creed. Also note, it says this is a Christian Creed, adopted by the RCC and protestants. You may ALSO want to read the changes made to the Creed by Rome )

I disagree with nothing in there. Notice what it does not say? (Mods..please forgive me, but this must be done..and, if not mistaken, is not blasphemy)

We believe (I believe) in one God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm), the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm), the only begotten Son of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14142b.htm), and born of the Father before all ages,and the Pope (vicar)as Jesus' representation on earth,. (God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm)) light of light, true God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) of true God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm). Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12083c.htm), suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the the church in Rome(who shall be hallowed and exalted). And ascended into heaven (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01767a.htm), sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son, and the Pope; that is the Roman Church, is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, Roman catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12792a.htm) and the life of the world to come. Amen."

Now, that was meant to prove a point..the church in Rome, of Rome, thru Rome is not the umbilical cord of Jesus Christ> Christ is the Head of the Church. The Holy Spirit is Christ's Vicar on Earth. That is reality.

If you wish, I will continue this debate...but do not come to me with something out of the CCC or s document, written of men, by men, for men, and say that because a person employed or serving in the Roman church says its so, that that makes it gospel truth.

My Bible says ALL people who accept Jesus as Lord and Savior...and so on...not those of any particular denomination or religion.

I do apologize if I seem harsh..I am simply being blunt. You dare to question her faith, all because she left the RCC? Pharisee and hypocrite? Do you not know with what weight you judge, you shall also be judged? I stand here and hide not behind a religion, or teaching and tradition of man, but stand firmly on the Word of God, given by God for His people.

Wow, what a thread. I humbly suggest that you actually look into Catholicism and realize that it is Bible-based which is the Sacred Tradition (not the commandments of men) and was not a controlled by the Imperial Roman Government, it was and always has been separate. I shall endeavor to provide you with a small example of proof. In 313 Anno Domini, The Toleration of the Christianity, that is the Catholic Church, as at the time all belong in one unified Catholic Church, was enacted by Emperor Constantine. By no means was this a final ceasing of the persecution of Christ's Holy Catholic Church. For example in 361Ad. Emperor Julian tried to reverse the spread of Christ's Holy Catholic Church by promoting Paganism, and launching brutal persecutions, which ended with his death in 363Ad. This is but one amongst a list of many historical recordings in the annals of history that could be used to refute your grave misunderstanding of the Holy Catholic Church and the truth that the Lord God has revealed through her via his most blessed Holy Ghost. God has preserved his church from Satan and those who would rather have the gates of hell prevail against Christ's Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. However---As, Christ said that The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against the Church, he meant it, and his bride----the Holy Catholic Church remains strong and vigilant today. It has in the Catechism her interpretation of the Bible and in her Sacred Tradition the dogma and doctrines central to the faith of Christ's followers so that they may not be lead into error. The Holy Spirit protected his Holy Catholic Church from promoting any erroneous or heretical doctrine or dogma. Each and every time a Heresy popped up from members claiming to be apart of Christ's Church, they either separate themselves, their heresies die out, or they are excommunicated so as they do not lead Christ's followers within his Church in Error or Heresy by disguising themselves as supposedly being in alignment with Christ and the Doctrines of his Church, when in reality they are NOT. Take Care Brother, and I'll pray that the Lord guides you back to his Holy Catholic Church. I too, once doubted the validity and Truth of Christ's Holy Catholic Church, but through God's guidance I was laid to the safe haven of his Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. I will pray that The Lord God in Heaven may show the way back to his Church as well, and that you may recognize that he is calling you, when he does.

The Lord God bless you and Keep! ;) And yes!, I will pray for you!:prayer:

May God bless you very abundantly

O Lord have mercy on me a sinner!
Forgive me.

-with Agape,
Ravenonthecross

Spiritofprophecy

7th August 2007, 07:05 PM

PoliticalGuru

9th August 2007, 01:33 AM

greetings in the name of Jesus: :hug:

Either some catholics didn't get the papal message of other faiths being a means to salvation; which I interpret that is a purgatory of earth to finding catholicism the only way to" faith" and to be " sustained".

Catholics claim to have a " fig leaf" of unity and brotherhood, but in actions and in proselytizing are wolves in sheeps clothing: for any one reading this thread cannot believe that these faithful Catholics; which I accept as of Jesus and salvation; Must believe they are proselytizing and also demeaning the salvation and faith of those not Catholic.

Now either the edict of the Pope which says other faiths are a means of reaching salvation is a deception on accepting them as Saved christians; or is rejected as not true by these who say such divisive things in reference to others faith; And then Call heretics and Falsehoods any which take exception to doctrines or concepts different from Catholicism.

I would love to have communion with Catholics: but without doubt, it is Only Catholics which will not accept any other concept but their own. and That truth, does eliminate civilized honorable discourse as equals with any Catholic with non Catholics.

And Now that middle ages catholic doctrines of Latin only bibles; and all Catholics are personally relating to God, which is his word, previously denied Catholics. Are falling away from the Catholic Church, in mass.

I do not say this is Good: but it is Just, by what Catholics are saying and doing. Which Gods will is being done. and Catholics are being seen as " brainwashed religious cults" not able to discern outside their man made doctrines based in superior God doctrines. Which I also believe most of Catholic doctrine. which is why God allowed such power in Catholicism. its mostly true doctrines. which Men in power have corrupted. and seek to retain authority in its Institution; not realizing all power is Gods..Which God can totally take from Catholicism.

I pray No one takes offense by my words. And God bless catholics of Christ. as all of faith in Jesus. God bless C.F. and all who use it. :wave:
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This is not true. There were Catholic Versions of the scriptures in vernacular languages during the middle ages. The problems were that these were before the printing press where they could be produced quickly and cheaply to the faithful, and only unauthorized translations were forbidden for Catholics to read. Would you read a botched version of the KJV? I'd challenge that the Latin Bibles would have a better translation than most English bibles you see today.

The assertion that all the Catholics 'now personally relating' are leaving in large numbers in unfounded as well. I think you should read up on some of the lives of the saints like St. Patrick and Catherine of Siena, these people got it and understood a personal relationship with Christ. This isn't some new phenomena. Every year in the U.S. between 60,000 to 100,000 people come into the Catholic Church from Protestant Churches, like myself. The Church right now is getting up to 1 million converts per year in Africa alone, and is seeing significant growth in Asia as well. Even with all the missionary activity in Latin America by Protestants, the Church is still growing larger and faster than all Protestant denominations put together.

Spiritofprophecy

9th August 2007, 09:06 PM

This is not true. There were Catholic Versions of the scriptures in vernacular languages during the middle ages. The problems were that these were before the printing press where they could be produced quickly and cheaply to the faithful, and only unauthorized translations were forbidden for Catholics to read. Would you read a botched version of the KJV? I'd challenge that the Latin Bibles would have a better translation than most English bibles you see today.

The assertion that all the Catholics 'now personally relating' are leaving in large numbers in unfounded as well. I think you should read up on some of the lives of the saints like St. Patrick and Catherine of Siena, these people got it and understood a personal relationship with Christ. This isn't some new phenomena. Every year in the U.S. between 60,000 to 100,000 people come into the Catholic Church from Protestant Churches, like myself. The Church right now is getting up to 1 million converts per year in Africa alone, and is seeing significant growth in Asia as well. Even with all the missionary activity in Latin America by Protestants, the Church is still growing larger and faster than all Protestant denominations put together.
greetings in the name of Jesus:

I would first like to commend you on your manner and respect upon the issue. Which shows a inner spirit of love.

Your first point about middle ages laymen open to Gods words, Not limited to word though priests: is contradicting one of the main topics and causes for the Reformation which I am sure you heard of. Which is pretty established truths. Even though denied still by some. But botched KJV, I would agree in this principle. But to claim as truth of Gods words botched. is against Gods promise for word. To preserve. Now the latin is better concept seems, incoherent: lest, you speaking english, are saying Learning latin to discern God is better than God revelations in english translation. Would then conclude all should learn latin. And KJV does defeat all other translations in printing, and Use. Which should prove something even to you as to God preserving his word. In respect.

second to find truths of Groups; it is largely accepted that Groups will embellish their own virtues; in other words, usually non partisans are less partisan and bias on subjects than. Protestants about protestants and Catholics about Catholics. example Catholics still claim Pope is perfect in theological matters. and Catholicism is the only way to salvation. And without being Insulting, this is clearly against scriptures.

Now the reports in america, Are Stating 6-7% increase in wealth in catholic homes as in all america per year, but that a 20 % reduction in revenues unto the american Catholic Church, according to the congressional budget office, for deductions in taxes. since 2002, might be 2001. I guess Catholics could give out side, not using deduction in taxes, but that doesn't sound credible. these two facts, would denote close to 50% reduction in revenues in America. And south america, will work itself out. And protestants are listed world wides as about 40% larger in membership than catholics. U.N. statistics reported "the nation" mag. this week.

but third is Popes perfection, and salvation only of popes. www.onenewsnow.com/2007/07/methodist_pastor_christians_sh.php (http://www.onenewsnow.com/2007/07/methodist_pastor_christians_sh.php)
where quotes of Popes " fig leaf" of accepting Non catholics, which says they are a means to find salvation. yet holding to Catholicism as the only way one can be saved. This is unscriptural and insulting, and deceptive using " fig leaf" as symbol for same insulting doctrines. This is no change, except more deception.

forth. Child abuse. www.bishop-accountability.org (http://www.bishop-accountability.org)
you may find 50 Names of officially accused and complaints of child abuse. that were moved and transferred by the Church leadership after first accusation. And this is a partial list, which of those Accused 60% of these accused were officially transferred by Catholic leaders.
This is documented and is accepted by all except some Catholics. And if googled there is no evidence of any Protestant or any organization protecting or transferring or facilitating any pedophilia or molestation of children. after public disclosure.

Now there are many cases of abuse in protestant and non Catholic circles, but they are branded and imprisoned and removed from service. And evidence based on accusations, is clearly against Catholics in this as to hiding and facilitating these things,

So says Frank Keating, U.S. Former Gov. and Catholic deacon leader, appointed by Catholic church to investigate Priest. who's conclusions were rejected and " termed Hypocritical and lies" when he claimed a cover up. and Catholic leadership incapable for self correction.

I can understand Catholics claiming abuse and lies by Non Catholics, for its true: for Catholics are falsely abused and insulted; But not, I repeat Not by their own layman and followers, who still claim Catholicism. Just Google Frank Keating and Catholics, and these two internet sights.

the methodist sight . I am not methodist. is where the Popes quotes of non Catholics is found.

I believe in the salvation of Catholics, and you. but I am only saying: I believe this middle ages originated Leadership. and tenants of Pope of middle ages, needs reform. And Catholic leaders have failed their flock in priests involved in Child abuse. As this months 600 million dollar pay offs in California, so confirms. No other denominations have paid for silence to victims. I pray and believe these things of Catholicism can and will be resolved with Gods help.

I pray my words do not offend, And God bless C.F. and all who use it.