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EyezOFire
17th August 2006, 04:52 PM
Your thoughts ? ---

Disowning Conservative Politics Is Costly for Pastor
http://cdn.news.aol.com/aolnews_providers/24_article_logo
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN, The New York Times
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MAPLEWOOD, Minn. (July 30) -- Like most pastors who lead thriving evangelical megachurches, the Rev. Gregory A. Boyd was asked frequently to give his blessing -- and the church's -- to conservative political candidates and causes.

The requests came from church members and visitors alike: Would he please announce a rally against gay marriage during services? Would he introduce a politician from the pulpit? Could members set up a table in the lobby promoting their anti-abortion work? Would the church distribute “voters’ guides” that all but endorsed Republican candidates? And with the country at war, please couldn’t the church hang an American flag in the sanctuary?
After refusing each time, Mr. Boyd finally became fed up, he said. Before the last presidential election, he preached six sermons called “The Cross and the Sword” in which he said the church should steer clear of politics, give up moralizing on sexual issues, stop claiming the United States as a “Christian nation” and stop glorifying American military campaigns.
“When the church wins the culture wars, it inevitably loses,” Mr. Boyd preached. “When it conquers the world, it becomes the world. When you put your trust in the sword, you lose the cross.”
Mr. Boyd says he is no liberal. He is opposed to abortion and thinks homosexuality is not God’s ideal. The response from his congregation at Woodland Hills Church here in suburban St. Paul -- packed mostly with politically and theologically conservative, middle-class evangelicals -- was passionate. Some members walked out of a sermon and never returned. By the time the dust had settled, Woodland Hills, which Mr. Boyd founded in 1992, had lost about 1,000 of its 5,000 members.
But there were also congregants who thanked Mr. Boyd, telling him they were moved to tears to hear him voice concerns they had been too afraid to share.
“Most of my friends are believers,” said Shannon Staiger, a psychotherapist and church member, “and they think if you’re a believer, you’ll vote for Bush. And it’s scary to go against that.”
Sermons like Mr. Boyd’s are hardly typical in today’s evangelical churches. But the upheaval at Woodland Hills is an example of the internal debates now going on in some evangelical colleges, magazines and churches. A common concern is that the Christian message is being compromised by the tendency to tie evangelical Christianity to the Republican Party and American nationalism, especially through the war in Iraq.
At least six books on this theme have been published recently, some by Christian publishing houses. Randall Balmer, a religion professor at Barnard College and an evangelical, has written “Thy Kingdom Come: How the Religious Right Distorts the Faith and Threatens America -- an Evangelical’s Lament.”

And Mr. Boyd has a new book out, “The Myth of a Christian Nation: How the Quest for Political Power Is Destroying the Church,” which is based on his sermons.
“There is a lot of discontent brewing,” said Brian D. McLaren, the founding pastor at Cedar Ridge Community Church in Gaithersburg, Md., and a leader in the evangelical movement known as the “emerging church,” which is at the forefront of challenging the more politicized evangelical establishment.
“More and more people are saying this has gone too far -- the dominance of the evangelical identity by the religious right,” Mr. McLaren said. “You cannot say the word ‘Jesus’ in 2006 without having an awful lot of baggage going along with it. You can’t say the word ‘Christian,’ and you certainly can’t say the word ‘evangelical’ without it now raising connotations and a certain cringe factor in people.
“Because people think, ‘Oh no, what is going to come next is homosexual bashing, or pro-war rhetoric, or complaining about ‘activist judges.’ ”
Mr. Boyd said he had cleared his sermons with the church’s board, but his words left some in his congregation stunned. Some said that he was disrespecting President Bush and the military, that he was soft on abortion or telling them not to vote.
“When we joined years ago, Greg was a conservative speaker,” said William Berggren, a lawyer who joined the church with his wife six years ago. “But we totally disagreed with him on this. You can’t be a Christian and ignore actions that you feel are wrong. A case in point is the abortion issue. If the church were awake when abortion was passed in the 70’s, it wouldn’t have happened. But the church was asleep.”
Mr. Boyd, 49, who preaches in blue jeans and rumpled plaid shirts, leads a church that occupies a squat block-long building that was once a home improvement chain store.
The church grew from 40 members in 12 years, based in no small part on Mr. Boyd’s draw as an electrifying preacher who stuck closely to Scripture. He has degrees from Yale Divinity School and Princeton Theological Seminary, and he taught theology at Bethel College in St. Paul, where he created a controversy a few years ago by questioning whether God fully knew the future. Some pastors in his own denomination, the Baptist General Conference, mounted an effort to evict Mr. Boyd from the denomination and his teaching post, but he won that battle.

He is known among evangelicals for a bestselling book, “Letters From a Skeptic,” based on correspondence with his father, a leftist union organizer and a lifelong agnostic -- an exchange that eventually persuaded his father to embrace Christianity.
Mr. Boyd said he never intended his sermons to be taken as merely a critique of the Republican Party or the religious right. He refuses to share his party affiliation, or whether he has one, for that reason. He said there were Christians on both the left and the right who had turned politics and patriotism into “idolatry.”
He said he first became alarmed while visiting another megachurch’s worship service on a Fourth of July years ago. The service finished with the chorus singing “God Bless America” and a video of fighter jets flying over a hill silhouetted with crosses.
“I thought to myself, ‘What just happened? Fighter jets mixed up with the cross?’ ” he said in an interview.
Patriotic displays are still a mainstay in some evangelical churches. Across town from Mr. Boyd’s church, the sanctuary of North Heights Lutheran Church was draped in bunting on the Sunday before the Fourth of July this year for a “freedom celebration.” Military veterans and flag twirlers paraded into the sanctuary, an enormous American flag rose slowly behind the stage, and a Marine major who had served in Afghanistan preached that the military was spending “your hard-earned money” on good causes.
In his six sermons, Mr. Boyd laid out a broad argument that the role of Christians was not to seek “power over” others -- by controlling governments, passing legislation or fighting wars Christians should instead seek to have “power under” others — “winning people’s hearts” by sacrificing for those in need, as Jesus did, Mr. Boyd said.

“America wasn’t founded as a theocracy,” he said. “America was founded by people trying to escape theocracies. Never in history have we had a Christian theocracy where it wasn’t bloody and barbaric. That’s why our Constitution wisely put in a separation of church and state.

“I am sorry to tell you,” he continued, “that America is not the light of the world and the hope of the world. The light of the world and the hope of the world is Jesus Christ.”

Mr. Boyd lambasted the “hypocrisy and pettiness” of Christians who focus on “sexual issues” like homosexuality, abortion or Janet Jackson’s breast-revealing performance at the Super Bowl halftime show. He said Christians these days were constantly outraged about sex and perceived violations of their rights to display their faith in public.

“Those are the two buttons to push if you want to get Christians to act,” he said. “And those are the two buttons Jesus never pushed.”

Some Woodland Hills members said they applauded the sermons because they had resolved their conflicted feelings. David Churchill, a truck driver for U.P.S. and a Teamster for 26 years, said he had been “raised in a religious-right home” but was torn between the Republican (http://javascript<b></b>:;) expectations of faith and family and the Democratic expectations of his union.

When Mr. Boyd preached his sermons, “it was liberating to me,” Mr. Churchill said.

Mr. Boyd gave his sermons while his church was in the midst of a $7 million fund-raising campaign. But only $4 million came in, and 7 of the more than 50 staff members were laid off, he said.

Mary Van Sickle, the family pastor at Woodland Hills, said she lost 20 volunteers who had been the backbone of the church’s Sunday school.

“They said, ‘You’re not doing what the church is supposed to be doing, which is supporting the Republican way,’ ” she said. “It was some of my best volunteers.”

The Rev. Paul Eddy, a theology professor at Bethel College and the teaching pastor at Woodland Hills, said: “Greg is an anomaly in the megachurch world. He didn’t give a whit about church leadership, never read a book about church growth. His biggest fear is that people will think that all church is is a weekend carnival, with people liking the worship, the music, his speaking, and that’s it.”

In the end, those who left tended to be white, middle-class suburbanites, church staff members said. In their place, the church has added more members who live in the surrounding community — African-Americans, Hispanics and Hmong immigrants from Laos.

This suits Mr. Boyd. His vision for his church is an ethnically and economically diverse congregation that exemplifies Jesus’ teachings by its members’ actions. He, his wife and three other families from the church moved from the suburbs three years ago to a predominantly black neighborhood in St. Paul.

Mr. Boyd now says of the upheaval: “I don’t regret any aspect of it at all. It was a defining moment for us. We let go of something we were never called to be. We just didn’t know the price we were going to pay for doing it.”

His congregation of about 4,000 is still digesting his message. Mr. Boyd arranged a forum on a recent Wednesday night to allow members to sound off on his new book. The reception was warm, but many of the 56 questions submitted in writing were pointed: Isn’t abortion an evil that Christians should prevent? Are you saying Christians should not join the military? How can Christians possibly have “power under” Osama bin Laden? Didn’t the church play an enormously positive role in the civil rights movement?

One woman asked: “So why NOT us? If we contain the wisdom and grace and love and creativity of Jesus, why shouldn’t we be the ones involved in politics and setting laws?”

Mr. Boyd responded: “I don’t think there’s a particular angle we have on society that others lack. All good, decent people want good and order and justice. Just don’t slap the label ‘Christian’ on it.”

JTM3
17th August 2006, 04:56 PM
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Most of the founding fathers were Chrsitians, we are Christian land based on Christian principles.....and we've deteriarated as a result of having lost this heritage to the leftists scum in our country.


Case closed.

Tenebrae
17th August 2006, 04:57 PM
I believe that power corrupts and absolute power ocrrupts absolutley..... and I dont think its something christians are immune from

I read this novel. recently called Kingdom lost (http://www.kingdomlost.com) and it was a rather damming indictment on what a world would be like when men of God rule

if there were examples in history where christians had been involved in politics and it hadnt all gone pearshaped, my answer might be different. However history shows that humans regardless of religous beliefs are rather slow learners

I think we are called to conquer society through subversion, be so radically different that peop;le look to the church instead of the secular government. I think christians have more likelyhood of making change that way, than through politics

Edited to add: Jesus steered clear of the politicans in his day, yet he radically transformed the direction of human history. Mother teresa, another example, jackie pullinger... People who didnt do politics just got down to following God as best they could, not only did they impact on christians, but mother T especially had huge impact on the secular world

EyezOFire
17th August 2006, 05:13 PM
Is America a "Christian Nation?"

didaskalos
17th August 2006, 05:29 PM
Your thoughts ?
I worked for the Pat Robertson for prez campaign in 88 and was a voting member at the SC Republican convention....
With that said... steer clear of the 2008 campaign. A man will run who professes to be of God... but he is doing the devil's work. Do not support him. He will win regardless of what you do, but do not be one who supports him and believes his lies.
His administration will be disastrous for the country and the world. Many other things will happen during his time in office.. stay out of this one.

Strong in Him
17th August 2006, 05:33 PM
No. The prophets didn't, they advised the kings of God's ways and commands. It was the nations' relationship with God and failure to observe the law, that determined what happened to them - ie Israel was destroyed, and years later the people of Judah were either killed or taken into exile by the Babylonians. God anointed kings in the OT, and when those kings obeyed him, the nation prospered.

The state needs the church as well. It seems that almost anything good that is introduced, gets abused by some people - the benefits system, the internet, credit cards, alcohol etc. In this country some people abuse the NHS, and the immigration system. All this abuse is a sin problem - some people seem to have no conscience about defrauding others. And sin is something the church should be preaching against.

JTM3
17th August 2006, 05:39 PM
I worked for the Pat Robertson for prez campaign in 88 and was a voting member at the SC Republican convention....
With that said... steer clear of the 2008 campaign. A man will run who professes to be of God... but he is doing the devil's work. Do not support him. He will win regardless of what you do, but do not be one who supports him and believes his lies.
His administration will be disastrous for the country and the world. Many other things will happen during his time in office.. stay out of this one.


Is that prophecy for the 2008 campaign? Are you talking about hillary clinton? :D I'm assuming you're talking about this upcoming election?

Please, tell us more! (Better yet, start a new thread.)

Alpine
17th August 2006, 06:23 PM
I worked for the Pat Robertson for prez campaign in 88 and was a voting member at the SC Republican convention....
With that said... steer clear of the 2008 campaign. A man will run who professes to be of God... but he is doing the devil's work. Do not support him. He will win regardless of what you do, but do not be one who supports him and believes his lies.
His administration will be disastrous for the country and the world. Many other things will happen during his time in office.. stay out of this one.

What's this all about?

EyezOFire
17th August 2006, 06:24 PM
See above....

djbcrawford
17th August 2006, 06:51 PM
I think the above post sums up the problem with politics and Christianity pretty well and wholeheartedly agree with what was said, but surely we need men of good character, unwilling to take bribes and willing to speak up for what's right in positions of power. Especially in a capitalist society which is basically based on greed. Christianity does not exist to make America or any other country great. It does not exist to push a political party. It exists to promote right over wrong. It's priority should be promoting what is good regardless of where the good comes from.

I think the problem with politics is political parties. It's not about debating each issue as right or wrong any more, but as points of view - republican and democrate, left and right, liberal and conservative. One of the above posts described leftists as scum. Idea's should be considered on their merit, not dismissed because of what political side they come from.

I think democracy would work a lot better if everyone was an independent candidate with no affiliation except their conscience.

CrazyforYeshua
17th August 2006, 06:55 PM
We had a motto during the last election, and that was "Vote your Bible".
Churches are not allowed, by IRS rules, to endorse any candidate of either party. Churches have been ruined because the Pastor took it upon himself to do just that. So, my Pastor will not endorse or speak against any particular person, but his message was right on-you have to pray and vote for the one whom you think will follow God. In any office.
As far as stay out of politics, no, I think we need to be informed, we need to exercise our right to have a say in who sits in every office.

cherokeehippie
17th August 2006, 07:09 PM
I worked for the Pat Robertson for prez campaign in 88 and was a voting member at the SC Republican convention....
With that said... steer clear of the 2008 campaign. A man will run who professes to be of God... but he is doing the devil's work. Do not support him. He will win regardless of what you do, but do not be one who supports him and believes his lies.
His administration will be disastrous for the country and the world. Many other things will happen during his time in office.. stay out of this one.


Yeah, I very much believe this!! I personally believe the illuminati runs things(including so called right wing republicans and certain well known tv ministers).

Like it or not, the world is still under satan's control(remember when satan told Jesus that the nations were given over to him__when Jesus was being tested in the wilderness??
It won't be until the LORD returns, when the whole earth and Nations will be under His Control. Until then, we are only strangers in a world that is under satan's control. the more I study the whole UFO phenoman, and the history of our country's secret doings---along with operation Paperclip,etc, the more I believe this.

JimfromOhio
17th August 2006, 07:41 PM
Politics and ideology have come in the form of the separation in our minds of "sacred vs. secular".

"My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence" (John 18:36)

In this explanation Jesus makes it clear that there is a definite separation between His kingdom and the kingdoms of this world. The fact that Jesus had not allowed His disciples to defend Him was evidence enough of this fact. Christ's kingdom is heavenly and seeks the reconciliation of the sinner to God, but civil and world governments are of this earth and seek for power and supremacy.

The separation of church and state is also taught in 2 Corinthians 5:20 where the Christian is referred to as an ambassador - "Now then we are ambassadors for Christ." An ambassador is one who represents one country to another. He does not become involved in the government of the other country but seeks the welfare of his own. Likewise, the Christian does not become involved in the affairs of earthly governments but represents the heavenly kingdom to them. He is in this world but is not of this world (John 17:16). His work is spiritual, not political. His responsibility is to help the people of this world to give their allegiance to the heavenly kingdom of Christ.

Our form of government offers people the ability to exercise their faith freely and without interference from the government. To be fair to all faiths, our government is set up to not establish a state religion. This includes promoting one religion over another. Faith is something that individuals must accept or reject. People either take the leap and believe or they do not. It is not something that can be forced.

We just need to look at the whole picture. God never commanded the governments to "spread the Gospels". God commanded to Christians to spread the Gospels. The Gospel is for "spiritual society" while the Governments are for "human society".

Alpine
17th August 2006, 11:24 PM
Yeah, I very much believe this!! I personally believe the illuminati runs things(including so called right wing republicans and certain well known tv ministers).

Like it or not, the world is still under satan's control(remember when satan told Jesus that the nations were given over to him__when Jesus was being tested in the wilderness??
It won't be until the LORD returns, when the whole earth and Nations will be under His Control. Until then, we are only strangers in a world that is under satan's control. the more I study the whole UFO phenoman, and the history of our country's secret doings---along with operation Paperclip,etc, the more I believe this.

My experience with conspiracy theories is that at the root is a fear of something bigger. The truth is there is not an illuminati running the world. If they are they are doing a shoddy job!

You should study operation scissors! Paperclip was only the beginning!

Tenebrae
17th August 2006, 11:46 PM
My experience with conspiracy theories is that at the root is a fear of something bigger. The truth is there is not an illuminati running the world. If they are they are doing a shoddy job!

You should study operation scissors! Paperclip was only the beginning!well said:thumbsup:

Questioning Christian
17th August 2006, 11:55 PM
I believe that power corrupts and absolute power ocrrupts absolutley..... and I dont think its something christians are immune from

I read this novel. recently called Kingdom lost (http://www.kingdomlost.com) and it was a rather damming indictment on what a world would be like when men of God rule

if there were examples in history where christians had been involved in politics and it hadnt all gone pearshaped, my answer might be different.


Oooooooooooooh!!! You said "dam" and "pear-shaped"!!! I'm telling!!! :holy:

Tenebrae
18th August 2006, 12:01 AM
Oooooooooooooh!!! You said "dam" and "pear-shaped"!!! I'm telling!!! :holy:^_^

didaskalos
18th August 2006, 01:52 AM
Democracy, like communism and every other form of human government will fail and fall.

Tenebrae
18th August 2006, 02:49 AM
Democracy, like communism and every other form of human government will fail and fall.what do you think about the idea of theocracy?

SharonL
19th August 2006, 10:15 PM
The Bible says that in end times (I'm paraphasing here) that our leaders will look as foolish as children - well as it is going now - that is an insult to children.

I know you will ask the verse - so I'm going to look - anyone know what I'm talking about.

Tenebrae
19th August 2006, 10:55 PM
The Bible says that in end times (I'm paraphasing here) that our leaders will look as foolish as children - well as it is going now - that is an insult to children.

I know you will ask the verse - so I'm going to look - anyone know what I'm talking about.Thanks Sharon:hug:

djbcrawford
20th August 2006, 06:46 PM
Democracy, like communism and every other form of human government will fail and fall.

Yeah, every good idea will be corrupted by people looking for power for themselves.

djbcrawford
20th August 2006, 06:47 PM
what do you think about the idea of theocracy?

I think the best form of government is benevolent dictator... ;)

Tenebrae
20th August 2006, 07:07 PM
I think the best form of government is benevolent dictator... ;)well theocracys dont have the best history either

Some christians think its the best idea since sliced bread, others see it for what it is

:Dso a serious answer please

LoverOfGod
20th August 2006, 07:14 PM
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Most of the founding fathers were Chrsitians, we are Christian land based on Christian principles.....and we've deteriarated as a result of having lost this heritage to the leftists scum in our country.


Case closed.

Here is the problem with that logic. Just because a person is a Christian, does not mean that that person is a good person. There are all kinds of Christians from very good to very bad. If you are going to choose a person just because he is a Christian, you need to find out what is in his soul.

cherokeehippie
20th August 2006, 10:08 PM
It's a propaganda myth that our 'founding fathers' were christians. I would say that most of them were 'christian' in name only--nominal--out of tradition, status, etc. Benjamin franklin was in the occult. Thomas Paine was a rabid atheist who died on his death bed cursing and rejecting the gospel that was presented to him. His nurse said that she never wanted to experienced what she did at his bedside ever again. It's sort of the same logic as the myth about george washington chopping down the cherry tree. Propaganda myths to make mere man national heroes.

habeas
21st August 2006, 12:39 AM
Its my understanding that George Washington was a Christian, although there has been a whitewash over this fact by secular humanists, who want to promote the idea that he was a mere Deist.

The same cannot be said about Jefferson, I understand. I thought I remembered Benjamin Franklin engaging in an experiment in which he unsuccessfully attempted to not "sin," for an entire day. I think he was using the judeo christian concept of "sin." That, of course, does not make him a Christian, and from what I've read, he was not.

habeas
21st August 2006, 01:15 AM
I believe that Alexander Hamilton was a Christian.


He said, "I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.” [July 12, 1804 at his death]




Plus, he was involved with the Christian Constitutional Society in which he believed would have the objective of supporting the Christian religion and supporting the United States.

He also said, "I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."

He also said of the Constitution:

"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]