Be not conformed to this world - Clothing discussion

[Danfrey]

I noticed that the beard thread started turning into a clothing thread, so I decided to start one. My intention is to discuss the biblical concepts regarding clothing. Predicting the response from some, let me say that yes I realize you cannot look at the way someone is dressed and tell that they are saved. But, can you look at the way someone is dressed and tell that they are not saved? The purpose of this thread is to discuss application with others. I will start with a couple of quotes.

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

8 I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; 9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.

1 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear. 3 Do not let your adornment be merely outward—arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel— 4 rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God.

I take these verses literally. Jewelry is not allowed in my family. We don't braid hair, and expensive clothing is out of the question. Were I struggle is getting into what looks stylish. I have drifted into the habit of trying to look attractive, rather than just wearing cloths to cover myself. There was a time in our walk when this was not the case, but as with many other issues, sometimes we have to re-evalute where we are at. I am opposed to a church uniform, but I didn't have as many struggles with "worldliness" when I wore the same style of clothing every day. It was one less issue for me to concern myself with.

[Jehane]

Good idea, Danfrey. (love the piccie by the way)
Braided hair? Hm. Have you ever had hair caught in boat stays, rowlocks etc? It's dangerous besides being painful. The safest thing to do is to plait the hair in a single plait down the back. Some people would call this a braid but for us a braid is the really fancy plaiting that incorporates beads, ribbons, jewellry etc so we somtimes braid, sometimes two but mostly a single plait. My older, sporty girl's hair isn't long enough for this & she puts it up in a pony tail. We try to practise the Quaker principle of never doing for a child what they are capable of doing for themselves so younger dd often just manages to pull her hair back & tie it, often not to neatly but she tries.

Expensive clothing is out of the question. After modesty we look for comfort & durability; one, that is the best use of our resources & 2, it will help prevent health issues later.

We don't interpret the stuff on jewellery as forbidding it but as an injunction to not let the wearing of it detract from the real issues so my oldest girl wears none at all; it has to be taken of at sporting events anyway & she got tired of me having to repierce her ears!!(: My youngest has pierced ears but usually only wears small sleepers. I do like ear-rings but try not to have them large & gaudy.

Meanwhile Romans 12:2 has been the verse God has held up to me for a while now so all & any of the above is subject to change.

[ZiSunka]

I think there is middle ground between what the Amish wear and what prostitutes wear. It is possible to get clothing that covers but still doesn't require a cape and bonnet.

I personally hate it when a woman is required by her church to dress in plain clothes (Amish-wear), but her husband wears dockers and polo shirts. Where'd the idea come from that only women have to dress modestly?

[Danfrey]

I think there is middle ground between what the Amish wear and what prostitutes wear. It is possible to get clothing that covers but still doesn't require a cape and bonnet.

I personally hate it when a woman is required by her church to dress in plain clothes (Amish-wear), but her husband wears dockers and polo shirts. Where'd the idea come from that only women have to dress modestly?
Hold on to your seat Walkin....I totally agree with your statement. At the camp were I work, it is common to see cape dress wearing ladies with tight t-shirt wearing men. Does it take a brain surgeon to realize there is nothing modest about a tight tshirt. I feel like men need to carry more of the non-conformity weight than they have in the past. I don't agree with a church requiring any type of attire, but addressing immodesty if it creeps up is appropriate.

[Danfrey]

Good idea, Danfrey. (love the piccie by the way)
Braided hair? Hm. Have you ever had hair caught in boat stays, rowlocks etc? It's dangerous besides being painful. The safest thing to do is to plait the hair in a single plait down the back. Some people would call this a braid but for us a braid is the really fancy plaiting that incorporates beads, ribbons, jewellry etc so we somtimes braid, sometimes two but mostly a single plait. My older, sporty girl's hair isn't long enough for this & she puts it up in a pony tail. We try to practise the Quaker principle of never doing for a child what they are capable of doing for themselves so younger dd often just manages to pull her hair back & tie it, often not to neatly but she tries.

Expensive clothing is out of the question. After modesty we look for comfort & durability; one, that is the best use of our resources & 2, it will help prevent health issues later.

We don't interpret the stuff on jewellery as forbidding it but as an injunction to not let the wearing of it detract from the real issues so my oldest girl wears none at all; it has to be taken of at sporting events anyway & she got tired of me having to repierce her ears!!(: My youngest has pierced ears but usually only wears small sleepers. I do like ear-rings but try not to have them large & gaudy.

Meanwhile Romans 12:2 has been the verse God has held up to me for a while now so all & any of the above is subject to change.
Thanks, for the piccie comment. This is a more accurate representation of my family today. I agree that is difficult for ladies who are active to have their hair hanging loose or in a pony tail. One solution that works for us is a bun with a hair net over it. This is a common way for ladies to wear it that have the cap style cover. Interestingly, we would refer to a braid with stuff incorporated as plaiting. We have been flexible in the past on the braiding issue as it is a common practice amongst conservative Mennonites to braid your girl's hair until they are baptised at which time they would start wearing the cover. The scripture that mentions the braiding of hair leaves me uncomfortable enough with the practice to encourage my daughter to choose an alternative. This is one of those things that I would never try to push on someone else though. It is just interesting to discuss them. I especially find it interesting when it is cross cultural.

[Danfrey]

I forgot to mention the biggest dress issue that I have. "Man Jewelry" aka the necktie. I see no purpose that these have other than to decorate. If I wore shirts that did not button up to the neck I could see the need to have something covering my exposed chest, but my shirts do that for me.

[vespasia]

*From an open brethren pov*

I am more concerned about the source of my clothing before I am about the modesty as the poor worker is dependant on my choices for his daily wage and working conditions.
I cannot bring myself to purchase from anything other than those who meet the minimum fairtrade and alos ethical standards (something shared with UK quakers)

For work I either wear full length trousers or full length skirts depending on what I need to do that day and I never wear less than 3/4 blouses and long t-shirts.

I only wear a full headscarf if there is something important to be discussed with God. Wearing a headscarf were I live marks you as muslim and I dislike the teeny triangle that is used by the exclusive brethren as for me it is neither one thing or the other.

My husband has a beard for religious reasons and yes he ismore laid back over clothing than I am liable to be.

[Danfrey]

*From an open brethren pov*

I am more concerned about the source of my clothing before I am about the modesty as the poor worker is dependant on my choices for his daily wage and working conditions.
I cannot bring myself to purchase from anything other than those who meet the minimum fairtrade and alos ethical standards (something shared with UK quakers)

For work I either wear full length trousers or full length skirts depending on what I need to do that day and I never wear less than 3/4 blouses and long t-shirts.

I only wear a full headscarf if there is something important to be discussed with God. Wearing a headscarf were I live marks you as muslim and I dislike the teeny triangle that is used by the exclusive brethren as for me it is neither one thing or the other.

My husband has a beard for religious reasons and yes he ismore laid back over clothing than I am liable to be.
Intersting thoughts on the source of clothing. I am not familiar with the fairtrade and alos ethical standards, but I plan to make myself familiar with them.

Thanks for the input.

[Jehane]

I have tried the bun but two of us have really fine hair & it would take a brighter spark than I am to keep it fom all falling down. I did get it to work on DD's hair when she was younger by braiding it first! However she complained it hurt so I guess for it to work it had to be pulled too tight. I try not to be too pedantic. For the house I am a bit more relaxed. For special occassions I like to twist the hair from a centre part (Amish style) into a single braid & so long as we are all neat, clean & modest don't fuss. I too just love the discussion - especially cross-cultural (the curious icon is there for a reason!!!) & must say it has been a relief to find discussion in this forum stays on an even basis. I've been on one or two recently where everyone got terribly fraught & the opportunity for understanding was lost.

[ZiSunka]

I have to think that St Paul was getting at something else when he said Christian women shouldn't plait their hair.

Christianity isn't a religion of externals. Clothing, hair, perfume, beads, those are all externals. Jesus told the Pharasees that they wash the outside of the bowl but the inside is flithy, and he called them whitewashed tombs--bright and clean on the outside, but full of death inside.

I do absolutely believe that Christians should be different, we should be that "peculiar people" the bible talks about. But it isn't the clothing or the hair that should make us different, it is our love for one another and for the people of the world that should make us different, and our willingness to live righteous lives despite what everyone else is doing. That righteousness is neither affected or displayed by a certain clothing or hairstyle, or by a smelly body (I know Christians who believe anti-persperant is ungodly because it contains perfume).

Once we let go of the external shows of religiosity, we have time and room for the real demonstrations of faith--taking care of the poor, helping people understand the good news, being fair, friendly and helpful to our neighbors.

If I dress in demin or sack cloth, it's what's in my heart toward others that counts. As for the hair, doing up elaborate hairdoes takes a lot of vanity, something we know we are to avoid. It doesn't matter if your hair is braided or simply combed straight or whatever, as long as it isn't the source of your identity or an obsession about your looks.

[Danfrey]

I am all for the idea that the outward should not be a focus, but if we don't discuss these ideas and teach our children the concepts behind our decisions we end up with Christian girls thinking there is nothing wrong with halter tops and mini-skirts. It is dangerous to mandate dress, but it is also dangerous to teach that how we dress doesn't matter. There has been such a reaction to mandated dress in the Mennonite churches that the subject of dress has become almost taboo in the progressive churches.

[ZiSunka]

I am all for the idea that the outward should not be a focus, but if we don't discuss these ideas and teach our children the concepts behind our decisions we end up with Christian girls thinking there is nothing wrong with halter tops and mini-skirts. It is dangerous to mandate dress, but it is also dangerous to teach that how we dress doesn't matter. There has been such a reaction to mandated dress in the Mennonite churches that the subject of dress has become almost taboo in the progressive churches.

I agree that these things must be discussed, and I agree that how we dress does matter, a lot.

Joe and I were talking the other day and I asked him, if a woman walks by dressed in skimpy clothing, maybe even topless on the beach, would he have lustful thoughts? It didn't take him long to say that he wouldn't want to, but he probably would. When I asked him whose fault it would be that he had those thoughts, he said it would be somewhat his for not looking away fast enough, but it would be mostly hers, because she would be getting the reaction she was looking for.

When I asked him how he would felt if I dressed sexy in public, when he was done trying to be diplomatic, he said that he wouldn't like it at all, because it would seem to him that I was trying to attract other men and it would make it seem like I didn't want to be his girlfriend anymore.

When a woman dresses sexy, it isn't completely the man's fault when he has lustful thoughts. Young women especially have been told that they can dress anyway they want and if a man has sinful thoughts because of it, that's his problem. We need to start teaching Christian women that that's not true.

There are a wide variety of issues, personal issues like how to dress, that the church is failing to address these days. Too many feel good sermons, too much blending in with the world.

[Danfrey]

I agree that these things must be discussed, and I agree that how we dress does matter, a lot.

Joe and I were talking the other day and I asked him, if a woman walks by dressed in skimpy clothing, maybe even topless on the beach, would he have lustful thoughts? It didn't take him long to say that he wouldn't want to, but he probably would. When I asked him whose fault it would be that he had those thoughts, he said it would be somewhat his for not looking away fast enough, but it would be mostly hers, because she would be getting the reaction she was looking for.

When I asked him how he would felt if I dressed sexy in public, when he was done trying to be diplomatic, he said that he wouldn't like it at all, because it would seem to him that I was trying to attract other men and it would make it seem like I didn't want to be his girlfriend anymore.

When a woman dresses sexy, it isn't completely the man's fault when he has lustful thoughts. Young women especially have been told that they can dress anyway they want and if a man has sinful thoughts because of it, that's his problem. We need to start teaching Christian women that that's not true.

There are a wide variety of issues, personal issues like how to dress, that the church is failing to address these days. Too many feel good sermons, too much blending in with the world.
Well said. I am always a little leary of how you will take my posts, as I know our opinions differ quite abit on some issues. This is a difficult media because you can't read non-verbals when you are having a discussion.

[catlover]

Danfrey, what do you believe about a woman's hair being cut?

[Danfrey]

Danfrey, what do you believe about a woman's hair being cut?
I believe the Bible teaches that a woman should not shave her head. Beyond that, my personal preference would be for a woman to have long hair. I don't believe the Bible forbids a woman from cutting her hair though. Let me throw another curve. I shaved my wife's head when she started Chemo. Many would consider this sinful, but I think God understood why.

[Jehane]

Backtracking: All our modesty decisions i have discussed with the girls & we have worked towards things we are all comfortable with. Some of these have changed as the Lord has worked in our lives; some are tighter, others more relaxed. My oldest dd initiated much of our discussions on tempting males by how women dress & has actively sought to be very careful in this regard & I admire her for it as she isn't yet 17. Also we are seeing a careful stepping away by some members of the Christian church as the world grows more lewed & immoral in order that there might be a cleare distinction between the world & those who belong to Christ. Some days the irony kills me; I am a big believer in individual freedoms & free choice yet find myself aligning more & more with extremely conservative churches as we seek to be in the world but not of it.

[vespasia]

Fair-trade means the worker at the bottom of the supply chain get paid a fair price for their work and that no children are exploited at less than subsistence 'wages'. I have strong views about 'sweated' and indebted/indentured' labour being no better than slavery with a different mask.
Ethical means the impact of trade on the wider community is also taken into account.

As for hair until I was appointed to work for the church my hair was very long but the hours I work mean it is now an awful lot shorter for practical reasons. I could not serve the church tripping over my own hair and whilst I did try pinning it back into an extra strong bun-net it kept fighting for freedom.

Sure I could conform to the absolute open brethren ideal of hat sensible shoes skirt and so on but I came from way outside of His body and for that reason I am judged by my attitude to Christ and to others before my clothing. The brethren cope better with my tendency to wear long black gowns and cloaks than other Christian groups.

Some open brethren churches in the UK have tried to enforce dress codes on both men and woman, sadly this happened when they became more legalistic in outlook instead of outward in evangelism and such churches are decreasing in members as no younger people join or stay. My church took the courageous choice of not enforcing 20 years ago and has grown with some of the younger girls choosing to dress modestly with their hair covered as they are allowed to choose to do so.

No woman who loves Christ should deliberately dress to tempt a man, that is not a compassionate thing to do to them. We should protect our brother from their weaknesses where possible so that temptation does not get chance to led to outright sin.

[catlover]

I believe the Bible teaches that a woman should not shave her head. Beyond that, my personal preference would be for a woman to have long hair. I don't believe the Bible forbids a woman from cutting her hair though. Let me throw another curve. I shaved my wife's head when she started Chemo. Many would consider this sinful, but I think God understood why.


I am more than certain God understood. How is your wife doing now?

[ZiSunka]

His wife passed away. :(

[catlover]

His wife passed away. :(


Oh dear, Danfrey, please accept my deepest sympathies.

[MrJim]

Regarding dress: I wear shorts in the summer. Although I think I have exceptional calves, I don't think anyone is lusting after me. It is so hot, and I don't have a/c in most of my house in only in one of the cars.

I don't know how the plain folks wear britches through the summer. They do wear trousers that aren't denim, so I suppose they breathe better.

FYI: According to my USMC Drill Instructors--men wear trousers, women wear pants.

[ZiSunka]

I don't know how the plain folks wear britches through the summer. They do wear trousers that aren't denim, so I suppose they breathe better.

The older Amish wear very loose-fitting pants so the air can circulate a little, and they wear a airy fabric in the summer. But the younger Amish men are wearing their pants very tight these days, just as the women are wearing their skirts quite short. And the young men look like they are really suffering when I see them walking along the road or working in their yards! I've even seen a few with their pant legs rolled up to their knees.

[Jehane]

The heat is an issue where we are too & it gets very humid in summer. Our clothing issues in that regard are, what to swim in? Now dd is getting older the cossies (swimmers? bathers? swimsuits? What DO you call them?) are no longer suitable (you can get really modest ones for littlies out here because of the sun cancer issues). Older sister wears boardies & a rashie, which covers her from knee to elbow, but is a bit harder to swim in. Younger one will have to follow suit or find something else suitable.

[vespasia]

I cheated and bought 'surf wear' it covers just about everything but would be too hot to wear over 80F

I think you can buy modest bathing suits online if its a serious issue.

Some tankinins have longer legs and skirt front fastenings that can be paired with a 3/4 sleved surf t-shirt.

[Jehane]

I have been unclear. A rashie is a surf shirt & boardies are the long loose shorts board riders usually wear. I will try your tip for younger dd, who is NOT athletic - older one does multiple water activities & her clothes reflect her choices.

[ZiSunka]

I have a couple swim dresses that I wear over my bathing suit, even in the water.

The dress is knee length, loose-fitting, with loose sleeves, made of very light cotton jersey in blue tie-dye. Even when it is wet, it doesn't show a thing! Yet it still looks like beachwear.

The Christian church I used to go to used to have an annual swim party and I wore my swim dress in the water and people kept looking at me like I was weird, but I figured that was their problem, not mine. One poor girl who weighed well over 300 pounds wore a tank suit and it was awful. If she had a swim dress, she could have been modest and still had fun. Even the skinny young girls would have looked great and still had fun.

I think it's up to the church to set standards for dress at church events, at the very least, but also to teach people why it is necessary to maintain modesty.

But it all goes back to that issue of Christians failing to be a distinct people.

[Jehane]

Yes, I think you are right. We are called to be a peculiar people (not meaning odd, but distinct) & because the bible tells us man looks on outward appearances I do think it is sensible to acknowledge than our visual impact needs to say something, however restrained. I think you would be hard put to tell us from the people around us except in one thing: we never, ever wear revealing clothing & in the land of the cropped head all us girls have longish hair, even my sports girl, though hers is a bit shorter of necessity.!

[tulc]

I suspect it would be very interesting if you all visited my home. :sorry:
tulc(punks, freaks, hippies and straights as far as the eye can see!) :eek:

[Danfrey]

About the only time we have to concern ourselves with swimwear is if we are camping somewhere with water and nobody else is around. Other than that, I frown on mixed bathing for the family. There is a pool at the retreat center where we live, but the enviornment is not one that I want to be in or place my teenage son in. When we do go swimming as a family it is in whatever we happen to be wearing that day. I do wear shorts around the house before bed, but I don't wear them in public.

[MrJim]

Dan,
We oughta load up an go to tulc's place. I know he'll have the coffee ready and I'm always ready for an interesting experience :)...

[tulc]

We oughta load up an go to tulc's place. I know he'll have the coffee ready and I'm always ready for an interesting experience

Call ahead, and I'll show you around and introduce you to my family! ;)
tulc(I think once you got over the initial shock, you'd be amazed at how people who look so different seem to all love God and each other so much!) ;)

[Jehane]

I suspect it would be very interesting if you all visited my home. :sorry:
tulc(punks, freaks, hippies and straights as far as the eye can see!) :eek:

You haven't seen my place! This is a very SMALL community. :D

[Jehane]

About the only time we have to concern ourselves with swimwear is if we are camping somewhere with water and nobody else is around. Other than that, I frown on mixed bathing for the family. There is a pool at the retreat center where we live, but the enviornment is not one that I want to be in or place my teenage son in. When we do go swimming as a family it is in whatever we happen to be wearing that day. I do wear shorts around the house before bed, but I don't wear them in public.

We have complete waterfront & very few immediate neighbours so it is only when we visit off island with, say my mum who lives near some of the best tourist beaches in Oz, that it really becomes an issue. She's getting on & recently lost my dad & has NO grasp at all on our modesty issues. The boys always struggled but I just tell the girls. 'don't look,' & they don't; a little hard sometimes but sometimes it's the best we can do. Some places you don't even have to be at the beach to have people trotting round as if they were.

[Danfrey]

We have complete waterfront & very few immediate neighbours so it is only when we visit off island with, say my mum who lives near some of the best tourist beaches in Oz, that it really becomes an issue. She's getting on & recently lost my dad & has NO grasp at all on our modesty issues. The boys always struggled but I just tell the girls. 'don't look,' & they don't; a little hard sometimes but sometimes it's the best we can do. Some places you don't even have to be at the beach to have people trotting round as if they were.
I understand completely. I imagine living in a warm climate with beach all around makes modesty a difficult issue. We have to drive for at least a half hour to get to the beach. Needless to say, we don't spend much time there. It kind of stinks though, because my kids love to play in the water.

[Jehane]

I understand completely. I imagine living in a warm climate with beach all around makes modesty a difficult issue. We have to drive for at least a half hour to get to the beach. Needless to say, we don't spend much time there. It kind of stinks though, because my kids love to play in the water.

Funny; I say waterfront & everyone imagines we have beach. Unfortunately no! What we have is mud & mangroves & mozzies - which is actually way more interesting but nowhere near as romantic. :)

[MrJim]

mozzies :) what in the world???

[tulc]

mozzies :) what in the world???

Mosquitos?
tulc(that would be my guess) :)

[Jehane]

Clever Tulc! :thumbsup:

[MadFingerPainter]

i hope it's ok that i poke into this thread. ~smiles~
i realize i'm a different denomination but i feel as christians we should dress more conservatively and be a little more simple in our appearance. i look around at what the secular world is wearing and it's the way i dressed before i got saved. some of it is horrific to say the least. i don't have a lot of dresses. i think at the moment i have one that fits. i try to wear just basic blue jeans and a simple blouse to church. i don't wear much for jewelry any day at all and i don't do much as far as hair and make up. i just try to keep it clean and simple and as natural as possible. i do think you can see a difference between christians and non-christians clothing styles though.

[Jehane]

Hey, madfinger. We have to stop meeting like this. Nice to see your post.

[MadFingerPainter]

hi janie ~grin~ i hope no one minds that i'm coming to hang out with you all. ~smiles sweetly~

[Jehane]

hi janie ~grin~ i hope no one minds that i'm coming to hang out with you all. ~smiles sweetly~
Prob., not; there's a few of us came in for a poke around, liked what we saw & pretty much invited ourselves to the party. Technically I shouldn't be in here but nowhere else felt like 'home' - & I tried a few that should have fitted. They were kind & let me stay & play. :D

[MadFingerPainter]

~smiles~

[ZiSunka]

It's an open party, until fist fights break out, then we'll have to call the cops to get rid of all you tresspassers! ;) :D

[MadFingerPainter]

~keeps my fists to myself~

~hehe~

[MrJim]

~keeps my fists to myself~

~hehe~

You are most welcome to be here. You'll find that we are quite different in many ways with Baptists, but you may find some of those differences to be enlightening...

[ZiSunka]

You are most welcome to be here. You'll find that we are quite different in many ways with Baptists, but you may find some of those differences to be enlightening...

I'm a little afraid of the way she's weilding that frying pan, though! ;) :D

[vespasia]

I always find sending in the older folks (anyone over 85 plus heaven help me if I forget and call anyone UNDER 85 older!) Prayer and praise fellowship stops 95% of fisticuffs stone dead.

It is so hard to fight when they hit the floor with their knees praising and praying to God and the older ladies go round asking if everyone is all right and feeding them lethal homemade cakes and breads and so on.
Some of those cakes even pacify the Yoof group and they only have secret ingrediant choclate in!:D

[Jehane]

I don't fight. It's bad for the health.

[ZiSunka]

Let's post images of what we think is modest apparel for women, that way we can discuss what modesty looks like.

[Danfrey]

Let's post images of what we think is modest apparel for women, that way we can discuss what modesty looks like.
For me, that would be pretty tough. There are so many styles that I would consider modest. For instance, I would approve of anything in the list below for my daughter.

Jumper (dress with vest like bodice for our yank impaired)with blouse underneath

Jeans with a loose fitting shirt long enough to cover below backside

Most shirt waisted dresses not too tight

skirt below the knees with blouse

We shy away from knits as they cling too much. No T-shirts for the guys. Mostly button up shirts because pullover shirts are normally made from knit materials.

[Jehane]

I'll just look & maybe comment. I don't think I know how to do that.

[Danfrey]

http://www.modestapparelusa.com/images/jumper_greentencel.JPG
from http://www.modestapparelusa.com/

[ZiSunka]

How can woman be modest without being frumpy?

[Danfrey]

How can woman be modest without being frumpy?

I guess a broomstick skirt and blouse would qualify as unfrumpy?

The only catch I would have for my daughter is that she wear a vest if the blouse is thin or knit.

As I look at the picture of my daughter in the upper right hand corner. I wouldn't consider the way she is dressed frumpy. If it is, she doesn't mind it too much.

[MrJim]

How can woman be modest without being frumpy?

^_^Define frumpy--sounds like someone comparing themselves to the world's fashion...:P

[MadFingerPainter]

~reads page 5 and roars laughing~

Menno i have absolutely no problems with you all and your beliefs. i'm curious by nature so, i'm here. ~giggles~

[MadFingerPainter]

frumpy:
1. A girl or woman regarded as dull, plain, or unfashionable.
2. A person regarded as colorless and primly sedate.

[MadFingerPainter]

for me...since i don't wear dresses often...or head coverings...;)
this is my idea of modest. this is me back in april of 05.

[Jehane]

for me...since i don't wear dresses often...or head coverings...;)
this is my idea of modest. this is me back in april of 05.

You sure this is you? It looks a bit like me, sort of. :D Only I think I look frumpier. Oh I'm trying the snoody think like Danfrey suggested; it's keeping all the little bits of hair out of my eyes, which is a good thing as my eyes are growing dim & I have to do a lot of close-up work.

[MadFingerPainter]

that's me. needless to say since i don't dress like a harlot i don't have the men falling all over themselves wanting to date me. they're all busy looking at the teenage girls with their tops that are too tight and above the naval and their hip hugger jeans. ~shrug~ i don't care to look like that. that isn't the message i want to convey to men. i'd rather have them think me a prude. ~grin~

[Danfrey]

There is nothing prudish about dressing like a lady. Your picture does appear modest. The first thing I notice in contrast to what I see most days is the shirt is loose fitting. I really get tired of trying to look away and speak to females at the same time. I will be glad when baggy clothes come back into style.

[MrJim]

I really get tired of trying to look away and speak to females at the same time. I will be glad when baggy clothes come back into style.

I've been there-at church! I'd like to think that at some point I reach a spiritual maturity when I can see past the external, but goodness the way these parents (couple are elders!) let their daughters dress.

There was one I wanted to compliment for her work at the sound board (a blind person would know when she wasn't there-everyone else that tries to do the sound needs more practice) but I just couldn't bear to go to her since she spraypaints her clothes on.:sigh: She's off to college this fall--we'll see if it changes for the better...

[theAmishGirl]

"dull PLAIN unfashionable"

Yay- I'm frumpy!

[ZiSunka]

^_^Define frumpy--sounds like someone comparing themselves to the world's fashion...:P

There you go labelling without getting the whole picture again! :sigh:

I think the denim jumper is frumpy and certainly baggy jeans and xl tshirts are frumpy. There has to be modest clothing that doesn't look like it's sized for a larger woman. We petite women can't wear sack dresses like that.

I don't see men arguing that they should look that frumpy. Why aren't the men discussing what men should be wearing to look modest? Like pants two sizes too big so their butts don't show and shirts two sizes too big so their chests don't show. That would be modest in the same way oversize jumpers and oversized tshirts are modest on women.

Seriuously, let's have the men talk about modesty for men, not just dictate to the women.

[ZiSunka]

I will be glad when baggy clothes come back into style.

For men, too? Cuz I think in you avatar, you are wearing your clothes a little too tight. The shape of your body is totally visible.

[ZiSunka]

"dull PLAIN unfashionable"

Yay- I'm frumpy!

I have yet to see a frumpy plain woman. Their dresses aren't shapeless sacks, they nip in at the waist, they define the bust, the have capes that accentuate the booty. They are much tighter than a sack dress. They don't deny a woman's body, they cover it without erasing its feminity.

Compare an amish woman's dress with the denim sack Dan posted:

http://www.amish-heartland.com/articles/-Amish%20Culture/Voice%20of%20Women.txt.gif

Those women are modest AND feminine. The sack dress is just an attempt to keep a woman's features completely disguised so she looks more like a man.

[Danfrey]

For men, too? Cuz I think in you avatar, you are wearing your clothes a little too tight. The shape of your body is totally visible.
I agree. This is a journey, not a destination. I am in conversation with a tailor in India at the moment to arrange for some short kurtas that will address that very problem. They fall mid-thigh which should cover better than most of what I have been wearing. The biggest problem I have with modesty at the moment is too much weight gain.

[tulc]

The biggest problem I have with modesty at the moment is too much weight gain.

and those things (the kurtas) run pretty small! Plus it seems a little impractical for winter? :scratch:
tulc(weight gain? I'm just delighting myself in fatness, fatness!!) :sorry:

[vespasia]

I wear mainstream clothing.

The only differance being if its a skirt its pretty long, if its trousers they are cut for a woman not a man and the top had BETTER have a 3/4 sleeve and not plunge at the front.

Oh yes and black...;) still dress goth but its modest goth not 'lolita' goth.

[Danfrey]

I wear mainstream clothing.

The only differance being if its a skirt its pretty long, if its trousers they are cut for a woman not a man and the top had BETTER have a 3/4 sleeve and not plunge at the front.

Oh yes and black...;) still dress goth but its modest goth not 'lolita' goth.

My daughter and I joke all the time about her wearing a black handkerchief cover with skulls on it. Mennonite Goth. It is only talk and not action though. But it made me think of it when you said you are dress goth.

[theAmishGirl]

I have yet to see a frumpy plain woman. Their dresses aren't shapeless sacks, they nip in at the waist, they define the bust, the have capes that accentuate the booty. They are much tighter than a sack dress. They don't deny a woman's body, they cover it without erasing its feminity.

Compare an amish woman's dress with the denim sack Dan posted:

http://www.amish-heartland.com/articles/-Amish%20Culture/Voice%20of%20Women.txt.gif

Those women are modest AND feminine. The sack dress is just an attempt to keep a woman's features completely disguised so she looks more like a man.



I agree completely. This is what I wear to church on Sunday. I'm a little more relaxed during the week because I don't live in a community.

[MrJim]

I agree. This is a journey, not a destination. I am in conversation with a tailor in India at the moment to arrange for some short kurtas that will address that very problem.

:scratch:Really?

http://www.fashionsera.com/kurta-pajamas.html

Sounds like a fashion thing to me Dan ;)

[ZiSunka]

http://image.coldwatercreek.com/IMAGESFLB/R091112_175EB.JPG

Modest or immodest?

[ZiSunka]

http://image.coldwatercreek.com/IMAGESFLB/R27260_999EB.JPG

Modest or immodest?

[ZiSunka]

http://image.coldwatercreek.com/IMAGESFLB/H19517_040EB.JPG

Modest or immodest?

[ZiSunka]

http://image.coldwatercreek.com/IMAGESFLB/R46235_994SB.JPG

Modest or immodest?

[ZiSunka]

http://image.coldwatercreek.com/IMAGESFLB/H40952_072SB.JPG

Modest or immodest?

[ZiSunka]

http://image.coldwatercreek.com/IMAGESFLB/R48474_998SB.JPG

Modest or immodest?

My point is, a woman can be fully covered without wearing a sack.

[theAmishGirl]

Personally I like the one in post number 78

[Jehane]

Personally I think a tailored look in long dresses & skirts (so long as it's not tight) is extremely attractive & feminine. It defines a little without exposing but it is not a look I ever wear being one of these people who must have comfortable clothing before any consideration of fashion or appropriatness - so its loose & baggy all the way.

[MadFingerPainter]

http://www.modestapparelusa.com/images/jumper_greentencel.JPG
from http://www.modestapparelusa.com/
I like this outfit. Although I get strange looks from folks in McDonalds on Sundays if I walk in dressed like this. ~Giggle~

[ZiSunka]

Over the years of looking at Christian clothing (I started noticing how Christians dress long before I came to Christ), I have observed that "modesty" means "anything that was in style 20 years ago," just like the denim jumper in the example.

Those of you that remember the Christian singing groups of the 1970s, you remember that they dressed in pleated skirts and letter-type sweaters, just like girls wore in the 1950s In the 80s, it was the shift dress, very 1960s. In the 90s, it was the floral skirt and blazer, very late 70s. Now it seems to be the denim jumper, which was the height of style in the late 80s. I'd watch people going into church and think, "Do they think it's holier to wear outdated clothing than to wear stuff that looks like it was made this decade?" Even when I was 12, I was already wondering these things.

[MadFingerPainter]

unless you're wearing a robe that's 3 sizes too big you can't hide form. however i don't think it's necessary for people to be able to make out every single curve of your figure either. i'd prefer to leave that to the imagination. none of their business if my t-shirt covers a nice rear. you know what i'm saying? i've had people tell me on occasion that they had no idea i had such a nice figure til they saw me in something a touch more revealing and i was very uncomfortable with it. i went home immediately and got rid of the offending article of clothing.

[Danfrey]

I like most of the outfits that were listed by Walkin. I would not allow my daughter to wear the dress that appears to be a tailored knit, but the rest are plenty modest. We avoid cloths that cling. I think most would agree they don't want to see a man in public in tight sweat pants, so why would they want to see a woman in form fitted knits. My daughter likes her denim jumpers. She doesn't like cloths that cling to her and many ladies cloths are just not rugged enough for her tomboy ways. As a family, we are more concerned with comfort than we are fashion.

Although Menno thinks I am headed for the runway. ;)

[MadFingerPainter]

http://image.coldwatercreek.com/IMAGESFLB/R27260_999EB.JPG

Modest or immodest?
ooooooooooh that is pretty!!

[MadFingerPainter]

http://image.coldwatercreek.com/IMAGESFLB/H19517_040EB.JPG

Modest or immodest?
and that one! :D

[MadFingerPainter]

great...now all WalkIn has managed to do is make me wish i could go shopping. ~pouts~

[Danfrey]

For us, it is not a matter of the jumper being out of fashion, it is a matter of function. A jumper is easier to wear for my daughter because skirts fall down on the hips and tend to get in the way when playing. She doesn't have this problem with jumpers. The denim is just what she likes. I would buy her other materials, but she likes plaid and denim. When Candice was alive her favorites were very full skirts (several of which I sewed for her) and two tone cape dresses with the bodice a different color than the cape and skirt. The great thing about the way she dressed is that even after she had her mastectomy she could wear the same cloths without worrying about people noticing.

[MadFingerPainter]

you mean the red dress Danfrey? i would much rather see a young lady in that than some of things i see them wear at church.

[ZiSunka]

great...now all WalkIn has managed to do is make me wish i could go shopping. ~pouts~

I'll sell you a nice sewing machine from my garage sale!

[Danfrey]

you mean the red dress Danfrey? i would much rather see a young lady in that than some of things i see them wear at church.
I agree that there are things much worse, but knits just cling too much for my comfort level. How would it look if I were wearing a pair of pants that hug my curves the way that dress hugs the curves of a lady. I would imagine it would gross most people out. For some reason people think it is ok for material to cling to a woman but not a man.

[ZiSunka]

I agree that there are things much worse, but knits just cling too much for my comfort level. How would it look if I were wearing a pair of pants that hug my curves the way that dress hugs the curves of a lady. I would imagine it would gross most people out. For some reason people think it is ok for material to cling to a woman but not a man.

If that dress were cotton print instead of jersey, would it be okay with you?

I see plain people all the time where the wife is wearing a cape dress and the husband has the tightest pants on and a tshirt that outlines his entire chest.

I'd like to see some examples of modest dressing for men. :)

[Danfrey]

If that dress were cotton print instead of jersey, would it be okay with you?

I see plain people all the time where the wife is wearing a cape dress and the husband has the tightest pants on and a tshirt that outlines his entire chest.

I'd like to see some examples of modest dressing for men. :)
If the dress were made from a cotton instead of knit, it would be fine. I agree that many conservative people have laid it on thier wives to carry the weight of non-conformity. For many years my son and I wore black dickies work pants, solid colored button up shirts (loose fitting) and suspenders. We started wearing jeans after we joined the Holdeman church and it has kind of stuck. Shane does a better job of consistency than dad does. I still feel the pull of fashion at times. This sounds funny coming from a man, but I was really into hair, cloths, etc when I was a young man. Vanity has a way of creeping up on me if I am not careful.

We do not wear T-shirts in public as we consider them underwear. Also, we wear a t-shirt under our shirts all the time so that thinner button up shirts are not see through. The jeans have kind of stuck, but I am leaning toward black baggy jeans over the blue jeans I currently have. With my weight bouncing around so much, they are loose one week and tight a few weeks later. No desire to show off my backside.

[ZiSunka]

Any examples of what you think is modest for men?

[Danfrey]

http://www.bookstores.umn.edu/images/system/product/9072.jpg

One example

[MrJim]

We do not wear T-shirts in public as we consider them underwear.

It's funny to hear that. When I was in the Marine Corps they had a rule that you couldn't wear t-shirts in public for the very same reason.

[Danfrey]

http://greatergoodsonline.com/shop/images/5clkurtacary.jpg

I really like this one.

[Danfrey]

One thing I haven't mentioned about men and modesty. In our family nobody wears shorts in public. You will not find my teenage son running around in shorts. Most people think this is weird, but we don't mind being a little weird. We consider modesty an issue for men as well as women.

[MrJim]

http://greatergoodsonline.com/shop/images/5clkurtacary.jpg

I really like this one.

That does look pretty cool. I'm a "tuck in the shirt" sorta guy though...and I'm too sloppy for white. Bet it comes in grey & brown...

[Danfrey]

That does look pretty cool. I'm a "tuck in the shirt" sorta guy though...and I'm too sloppy for white. Bet it comes in grey & brown...
I am a tuck in type guy as well, but my daughter and I have been discussing the modesty advantage of having a shirt untucked. This first came up when she went to horse camp and they would not allow her to ride in jumpers. We purchased some long shirts for her to wear untucked that would hang thigh length. The same would apply for men. With jeans fitting the way they do, having a shirt hang mid thigh would cover anything that would be immodest. I think the middle eastern people could teach us a few things about modest. That is why I looked to india for this type of shirt. Might as well go to the source.

[Jehane]

Hm, shorts? Wether it's skirts or pants I like to keep my legs covered. All the kids do wear shorts but not the skimpy things that barely cover the butt. All shorts are very loose & long to the knees. We were considering cullottes for the girls at one time but no-one sells these anymore & I can't even buy a pattern to make my own. I don't draft so that's out. Also, while we all wear T-shirts they are of the large & loose variety & long over the backside. My mother gets quite upset with me but I am NOT having my daughters parading round as jail bait!!

[MadFingerPainter]

I'll sell you a nice sewing machine from my garage sale!
um...i can't sew. i've tried in the past and all i manage to do is sew knots and destroy the sewing machine.

[MadFingerPainter]

i don't wear shorts except in the house or the front porch at best. i prefer to have my legs covered.

[MrJim]

I am a tuck in type guy as well, but my daughter and I have been discussing the modesty advantage of having a shirt untucked. This first came up when she went to horse camp and they would not allow her to ride in jumpers. We purchased some long shirts for her to wear untucked that would hang thigh length. The same would apply for men. With jeans fitting the way they do, having a shirt hang mid thigh would cover anything that would be immodest. I think the middle eastern people could teach us a few things about modest. That is why I looked to india for this type of shirt. Might as well go to the source.

Good points. Then I wonder...

http://www.mysticclothing.com/inventory_items/chn10.htm

[MadFingerPainter]

~giggles~ i'm trying to imagine all the men in town here in those. lot less temptation to look there. although it would be replaced by stifling fits of laughter.

[tulc]

Try here:
http://www.desertstore.com/products-For-Sale/SA-thobe-11.html
it covers everything, and if you add sun glasses you can pretend you're Neo! :)
tulc( ;) )

[MadFingerPainter]

Neo?

[MrJim]

Try here:
http://www.desertstore.com/products-For-Sale/SA-thobe-11.html
it covers everything, and if you add sun glasses you can pretend you're Neo! :)
tulc( ;) )

:cool:I am the one...wait a minute-isn't that a cassock?

[ZiSunka]

CHN10 - Tai Chi, Kung Fu Men's Chinese Leisure Suit

I love it. I wouldn't want Joe to wear it, but I love it.

[Jehane]

Good grief!!! My very blokey blokes would throw a pink fit if I asked them to wear any of that.

[tulc]

Neo?

From the Matrix movies:
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:_DqZ1AgLscffIM:http://www.tk421.net/gallery/pictures/neo.jpg this is Neo, Keanu Reeves played him.
tulc(who actually didn't care for those movies at all) :sick:

[tulc]

Danfrey have you checked out Duluth trading company? They have these shirts called the longtails. Check here:
http://www.duluthtrading.com/store/mens/mens_shirts/shirtssweatshirts.aspx?navlocation=dept_left
they are made long for people who work and they aren't...revealing if you get my drift?
tulc(owns a couple and finds they stay well tucked!) ;)

[ZiSunka]

From the Matrix movies:
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:_DqZ1AgLscffIM:http://www.tk421.net/gallery/pictures/neo.jpg this is Neo, Keanu Reeves played him.
tulc(who actually didn't care for those movies at all) :sick:

Yes, but Keanu Reeves is a total babe!

[ZiSunka]

Danfrey have you checked out Duluth trading company? They have these shirts called the longtails. Check here:
http://www.duluthtrading.com/store/mens/mens_shirts/shirtssweatshirts.aspx?navlocation=dept_left
they are made long for people who work and they aren't...revealing if you get my drift?
tulc(owns a couple and finds they stay well tucked!) ;)

Wow! Joe would look great in those. I'm going to order some. He's got that middle-age-middle-spread thing going on and that would be a lot better than squeezing his farmer belly into a t shirt.

[MrJim]

CHN10 - Tai Chi, Kung Fu Men's Chinese Leisure Suit

I love it. I wouldn't want Joe to wear it, but I love it.

Yeah, I sorta like the chinese style over the indian/islamic look...

[MrJim]

Danfrey have you checked out Duluth trading company? They have these shirts called the longtails. Check here:
http://www.duluthtrading.com/store/mens/mens_shirts/shirtssweatshirts.aspx?navlocation=dept_left
they are made long for people who work and they aren't...revealing if you get my drift?
tulc(owns a couple and finds they stay well tucked!) ;)

Great site tulc--this is better than trying to find something at walmart!:thumbsup:

[MadFingerPainter]

~lol~

[theAmishGirl]

From the matrix series

[MadFingerPainter]

since when do Amish girls know about movies? ~wink~

[theAmishGirl]

haha! wow- i think I missed a few posts in there for some reason

[MadFingerPainter]

is she really amish or am i missing something? ~blinks~

[theAmishGirl]

No I'm Conservative Mennonite. But I wasn't raised in a community so I have a vast worldly knowledge. I'm much more watchful now however.

[MadFingerPainter]

ah ok. i meant no offense. i simply didn't understand. ~hugs~

[theAmishGirl]

no it's fine- if you have any questions feel free to ask... i'm quite used to it!

[MadFingerPainter]

i don't actually know all the differences in mennonites. so when you talk about communities & what kind of mennonites you are i am so clueless. i only understand mennonite...holderman (sp?) and amish. beyond that i have no idea. i ask the holderman lady at work questions all the time. she just smiles and answers me. ~hehe~

[theAmishGirl]

ok- the holdermans believe that they are the one true church. Basically- no one outside of their church will go to heaven. At least that is my understanding of it.

"Christ established one true, visible Church, and through her He has preserved His faith and doctrine through the ages. " (http://www.bibleviews.com/holdeman.html)

The Amish were a split off of the Mennonite church. They do not practice evangelism, feeling that they are not well enough equipped to tell others about Christ. They believe that in order to be a witness one must possess the abilities that the original disiples (sp) possessed: signs, wonders, and miracles. They also believe that at the end of ones life, God will weigh their life against others and that will determine their salvation.
They also practice a very strong version of shunning, which is one of the main reasons for the original split.

As far as Mennonites go, there are some churches who use the name but aren't really any different in practice from an average Baptist church. However, there are those who still practice the plain dress and the more conservative lifestlye. Some drive cars and use electricity and a small group known as the Old Order do not use electricity and are horse and buggy style like the Amish. They and some of the slightly more liberal churches live in communities that work together. Mostly farm groups... they work collectively to support each other and there is a very strong sense of family within the group. For example the Amish barnraisings... that's how everything works.

I attend an Old Order church, but I don't live in the community and therefore I do drive a car, etc. They are wonderful people though and have been great about working with our situation. In fact, most of the people in this particular community weren't raised "plain" including one of the ministers, but have all instead moved into the community from society. Another difference from the Amish, the Amish are very family tied (for instance Yoder is a common Amish name...) and there isn't much influx from who they call the Englisch (because they are all of German background). On the other hand, most Mennonites are from different backgrounds. There is even a couple of black girls and several families from Belize in the community where I attend. It's a much more open group.

[Jehane]

Yes, I was surprised at how liberal some so called Mennonite churches have become when I googled as the church out here (yes, we have one but like everthing else out here it is just a tad peculiar) is quite conservative -though they are of the car driving, electricity using variety.

[theAmishGirl]

Yes, I was surprised at how liberal some so called Mennonite churches have become when I googled as the church out here (yes, we have one but like everthing else out here it is just a tad peculiar) is quite conservative -though they are of the car driving, electricity using variety.
yeah that is the type I would prefer but the only group near me is Old Order, I love them to death though! They are awesome! But yes very conservative! I like it. There is such a respect among the community that doesn't happen in other churches.

[Jehane]

You are lucky to have found a church that suits you & will meet your needs. I have several friends who are Mennonite (semi) & the church community is spread across all 7 states so they don't even get together regularly. Recently the States sent out a pastor to lead the church & he & his family (of 9 children) seem to spend a good part of their time travelling round the country visiting their scattered parishioners.

[theAmishGirl]

Wow! That is a long way to travel all the time!

[Danfrey]

ok- the holdermans believe that they are the one true church. Basically- no one outside of their church will go to heaven. At least that is my understanding of it.

"Christ established one true, visible Church, and through her He has preserved His faith and doctrine through the ages. " (http://www.bibleviews.com/holdeman.html)


Let me correct this common misconception. I was baptised Holdeman and am currently excommunicated from the Holdeman church. I don't have any need to defend them, but thier view of the kingdom of God is often misrepresented. It is true that they believe the are the "One true church" They believe that the Mennonite church strayed from the truth and the direct line of the church continued through him and his converts.

Do the Holdeman people believe they are the only ones saved? No. They believe the kingdom of God contains all of those who have been born again. The church is a group of believers within that kingdom that are the visible church in modern times. All of this is to say that the Holdeman people do not think they are the only ones going to heaven.

By the way, one of the key reasons I left the church is the "One true church teaching" They would believe that now that I have left the "One true church" that I am unsaved. This is a teaching that not all Holdeman support 100%, but is a big part of who they are. It plays a very important part in church discipline. It prevents people from leaving for the Mennonite church down the road.

Let me end by saying that the Holdeman people where wonderful to myfamily in a very difficult time. They went out of their way to help strangers who had very little to offer the church other than the burden of caring for a terminally ill woman and her annoying husband who questions everything. When Candice died, they paid for the funeral expenses without question. I can't say enough about how great these people were to us. My wife died a member of the Holdeman church and is buried in a Holdeman cemetary. If it were not for this one teaching, I would be with the Holdeman church to this day.

[ZiSunka]

ok- the holdermans believe that they are the one true church. Basically- no one outside of their church will go to heaven. At least that is my understanding of it.

So very many groups think the same thing. many of them are represented at CF.

[ZiSunka]

Do the Holdeman people believe they are the only ones saved? No. They believe the kingdom of God contains all of those who have been born again. The church is a group of believers within that kingdom that are the visible church in modern times. All of this is to say that the Holdeman people do not think they are the only ones going to heaven.

By the way, one of the key reasons I left the church is the "One true church teaching" They would believe that now that I have left the "One true church" that I am unsaved.

This is confusing. Can you clarify how they can believe that all born-again believers are saved, but anyone who leaves their church is unsaved? That seems contradictory.

[Danfrey]

This is confusing. Can you clarify how they can believe that all born-again believers are saved, but anyone who leaves their church is unsaved? That seems contradictory.

Before someone comes to the understanding that the Holdeman Church is the "One true church" it is not going to be held against them. Once they come to the understanding and join the church, they throw away their salvation by becoming prideful and leaving.

I think it important for people to understand this because there is a big difference between what they believe and the view they are accused of having that they are the only ones saved. This is why you will find them fellowshipping to a certain extent with other believers outside their faith.

Outside of this belief, I have found very few believers I respect more. I doubt many of them understand how much I do respect them. Leaving was one of the hardest decisions I have ever had to make.

[ZiSunka]

Before someone comes to the understanding that the Holdeman Church is the "One true church" it is not going to be held against them. Once they come to the understanding and join the church, they throw away their salvation by becoming prideful and leaving.

Much like catholicism.

[MrJim]

Much like catholicism.

but better dressed (love those plain suits:thumbsup:)

[ACADEMIC]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0310256593/104-3312500-8301522?v=glance&n=283155

[MadFingerPainter]

Interesting.
One thing I know for sure...I must be pretty special cuz this particular Holdeman woman has told me she loves me and given me hugs. I don't know too many that do that.

[Danfrey]

Interesting.
One thing I know for sure...I must be pretty special cuz this particular Holdeman woman has told me she loves me and given me hugs. I don't know too many that do that.
I have found the Holdeman people to be very open, compassionate and loving. Most people hear One True Church and they don't take the time to get to them.

[MadFingerPainter]

That's just it Danfrey...I think I'm pretty accepting of just about everyone or I at least try. I try to love everyone anyway without discriminating. Some folks make it very difficult to love them so you have to do it from afar and through prayer. ~Grin~

[ZiSunka]

Some folks make it very difficult to love them so you have to do it from afar

I'm not sure that is love??

It's more like intolerance, but with a holy smile, isn't it?

[MadFingerPainter]

no...not really.
example...i work with a lady who totally hates me. she mistreats me a lot. but i can only get just so close before the door to her heart slams shut. so i stand outside that door and pray for her. i'm nice to her regardless of how she is treating me. why? because i love her. even if she doesn't love me. if i didn't love her i would have given up a long time ago on even making any effort. sometimes there is progress and sometimes not. but it would be wrong for me to mistreat her in return.
how is praying for someone and being kind to them because it's what God wants and wanting to love them, not loving them? ~blinks~

[ZiSunka]

how is praying for someone and being kind to them because it's what God wants and wanting to love them, not loving them? ~blinks~

Well, because it's not what you said the first time. You only said you "love them from afar" which is a phrase with no real meaning. Now that you've explained what you meant by that, it makes more sense.

[MadFingerPainter]

Ok. ~Smiles~

[Jehane]

If anyone is interested there is a modesty discussion going on on the women's discussion forum. I bailed out & never posted as I was getting hot under the collar but there's quite a different perspective going on there.

[handmaiden97]

Walk in His steps, I love the dress (#76) where did you find it? What website does it come from??

[Danfrey]

If anyone is interested there is a modesty discussion going on on the women's discussion forum. I bailed out & never posted as I was getting hot under the collar but there's quite a different perspective going on there.
These type of discussions just make me shake my head. I can understand why you didn't jump in. The idea that if a man is tempted by a half dressed woman it is his own fault blows my mind. There is this hormone called testosterone that God created for a man to desire his wife. Like many things when it is abused it creates problems. By abused, I mean when a man is subject to things he should only see in his wife. Of course, as a man I have a responsibility to guard my eyes, but I always thought I would be guarding them from non-believers not from other professing Christians. Anyway, it is good to know what kind of trashy ideas my daughter will be subject to even from other "Christians". I think I will continue to encourage frumpy :)
One of the ideas that really sticks out here is the concept of "what I want", "what I think is ok". Since when is Christianity about serving ourselves? What happened to taking up our crosses and following Christ? I don't think he was talking about a little gold one to be worn around the neck.

[Jehane]

That anyone could not see they were leading a fellow believer into temptation when we are specifically told we are responsible for each other blows my mind. Even my 17 yr old has the picture that guys minds are wired differently & dresses accordingly - out of respect for those differences & the word of God. Modesty may be more than clothing but it certainly includes clothing. :)

[Danfrey]

That anyone could not see they were leading a fellow believer into temptation when we are specifically told we are responsible for each other blows my mind. Even my 17 yr old has the picture that guys minds are wired differently & dresses accordingly - out of respect for those differences & the word of God. Modesty may be more than clothing but it certainly includes clothing. :)
We live in a very selfish society that has been told for too long that it has the right to do what it wants regardless of the impact on others. It is just sad that there isn't a clear distinction between the believer and the non-believer on issues like this.

[Jehane]

Sadder even is the fact that no-one will be told that what they 'think', is wrong by scriptural standards. Everyone is thinking by what is right in their own eyes & not according to what scripture says is right. This does not necessarily make one legalistic, though it happens, but at least it gives a solid starting place.

[Danfrey]

Sadder even is the fact that no-one will be told that what they 'think', is wrong by scriptural standards. Everyone is thinking by what is right in their own eyes & not according to what scripture says is right. This does not necessarily make one legalistic, though it happens, but at least it gives a solid starting place.
I think many have the idea that any command or requirement weither Biblical or not is legalism. It is a word that has been used to discredit and belittle. As the Church, we need to find a way to hold to the Biblical teachings without losing focus of why we hold to them. We will always run the risk of becoming legalistic about one thing or another, but that is where the renewing of ones heart by the Holy Spirit comes in. He has a way of pulling us back into check when we stray.

[MadFingerPainter]

i've noticed that most of the men here will look at the half dressed made up ones before they will even blink an eye at me. but i refuse to run around half dressed with fake fingernails and a bucket makeup on and enough jewelry to be mistaken for a christmas tree.

[Jehane]

Good for you Madfinger! I find the whole fashion thing just so silly & I much prefer it when someone has developed their own style - hopefully also modest!

[MadFingerPainter]

i don't care if i look plain or frumpy. the bible says we're not suppose to worry over outward appearance anyway. and to be honest...there's not a lot point to all that fuss. it's a waste of time and all it does is make men look at you like you're the special of the day. it's creepy.

[MadFingerPainter]

although...i encountered a pervert one day in my home while playing gospel music and wearing a t-shirt that said "got Jesus?" and my bible sitting in front of him.

[MrJim]

although...i encountered a pervert one day in my home while playing gospel music and wearing a t-shirt that said "got Jesus?" and my bible sitting in front of him.

OK now that's just weird:eek:

[MrJim]

I told mrs. menno that I wanted to get a plain suit and she said no. She said we are not plain mennonite so I wasn't to get one.

So I have to find something that is plain yet not "plain"...guess a grey cord jacket will have to do?

[MadFingerPainter]

mmm hmm...he was there to spray for bugs and i was in the house and i don't know...something went wrong in his head and next thing i know...i'm worrying about being attacked by this guy. you would think with a room filled with christian messages this guy would've gotten it.

[MadFingerPainter]

when you say plain suit...do you have an image of your idea of a plain suit so i can see what you mean Menno?

[Danfrey]

Menno, as long as you don't wear a tie you have a good start. I actually prefer a white shirt, black pants and a black vest. It isn't a plain suit, but it much cheaper. Those things cost a couple hundred bucks if you buy them off the shelf at Good's.

[Jehane]

One thing that hasn't really come out in this discussion yet is how modesty (plain might be a better word in context) & simplicity tie together. I don't like ostentaciousness, gaudiness, clutter in any aspect of my life - including clothing; which is not to say things can't be pretty. I like pretty but I am all for simplicity - less is better. It is the difference between an overstuffed jar of all sorts of flowers & Japanese flower arranging. (No prizes for guessing which I prefer.) I fail to see why I should have a dress costing $1,000's when my neighbour is homeless, or hungry, or naked. If I keep my needs simple then I have more to give.

[Danfrey]

Sister,

That was very well put. I think this is covered when we are not to be adorned with Gold, or Pearls or costly apparel. Once clothing becomes more than a way of covering ourselves we have a problem. Some of the most beautiful women I have ever seen wore very simple clothing. This is off the subject, but relevant. My daughter and I have discussed the use of makeup. Thankfully we have a friend who has never worn makeup in her life. She has beautiful skin. She is a wonderful Godly example for my daughter. This stands in contrast to my daughter's mother who wears makeup, revealing clothing, etc. My daughter is honoring God and her Papa in her decisions about clothing.

[Jehane]

Yes, it is very hard for our girls in this modern age. I don't wear make-up (allergic so I never have) & neither girl is interested. However we have other issues that have arisen from the locker room which have made my older daughter uncomfortable because she is all on her own with hairy legs. Vanity, vanity. All is vanity. Younger dd will be the one. She is a performer at heart & likes the glitz!

[MrJim]

when you say plain suit...do you have an image of your idea of a plain suit so i can see what you mean Menno?

If you are familiar with the style of a nehru jacket that is what it would remind you of. I've no pics and couldn't even google an image.

Generally only in black, blue, or gray and no tie. Coat/Trousers same color.

[MrJim]

Menno, as long as you don't wear a tie you have a good start. I actually prefer a white shirt, black pants and a black vest. It isn't a plain suit, but it much cheaper. Those things cost a couple hundred bucks if you buy them off the shelf at Good's.

Not a bad idea. Did you just hunt around at Kmart or somewhere until you found what you were looking for or did you go to a specialty store?

[tulc]

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:pfk4_D7flus2MM:http://www.oacountry.com/Amish-Country-images/img048.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.oacountry.com/Amish-Country-images/img048.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.oacountry.com/Amish-Dress.htm&h=159&w=200&sz=27&hl=en&start=3&tbnid=pfk4_D7flus2MM:&tbnh=83&tbnw=104&prev=/images%3Fq%3Damish%2Bsuit%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official)
something like this?
tulc(wonders if the Amish drink coffee?) :scratch:

[MadFingerPainter]

what's wrong with a plain suit? ~blinks~

[DevonShire]

I told mrs. menno that I wanted to get a plain suit and she said no. She said we are not plain mennonite so I wasn't to get one.

So I have to find something that is plain yet not "plain"...guess a grey cord jacket will have to do?

No offense bud, but why did you have to ask your wife if you could get clothing that pleases you? I think a man should discuss things with his wife but he shouldn't have to ask permission to buy a shirt, a jacket and pair of pants. :confused:

You are the head of the household, not one of the children. I don't think it was ever God's will for a man to have to beg his wife to be allowed to buy clothing that pleases him.

That said, plain clothing isn't more holy or righteous than regular clothing. What you wear on the outside doesn't make you a different person on the inside. It's the other way around.

[DevonShire]

something like this?
tulc(wonders if the Amish drink coffee?) :scratch:

No, but they drink a cup of Postum every now and then. I grew up near Goshen Indiana. Knew a lot of Amish people.

[MrJim]

No offense bud, but why did you have to ask your wife if you could get clothing that pleases you? I think a man should discuss things with his wife but he shouldn't have to ask permission to buy a shirt, a jacket and pair of pants. :confused:

You are the head of the household, not one of the children. I don't think it was ever God's will for a man to have to beg his wife to be allowed to buy clothing that pleases him.

:cool: Yeah, I know I could just do what I wanted, but there is a mutual submission principle in marriage that I respect my wife's judgement. If she says that I shouldn't do something (which isn't often) then I've learned that she is usually right and I'll save heartache down the road.

That said, plain clothing isn't more holy or righteous than regular clothing. What you wear on the outside doesn't make you a different person on the inside. It's the other way around.

No kidding--ever see amish guys smoking their home-grown tobacco? Not a pretty sight^_^

[MadFingerPainter]

No kidding--ever see amish guys smoking their home-grown tobacco? Not a pretty sight^_^
you're kidding right?

[MrJim]

you're kidding right?

Oh no I'm not. The amish in the Lancaster county grow lots of tobacco. When you drive through you'll see the barns where they hang it up to dry. They grow lots of it. So some smoke it--you know, supporting their cash crop I guess. Hand rolled too-probably better than the store bought---well, relatively speaking I guess.

[MadFingerPainter]

~jaw drops~ according to some...smoking is a sin. now why would an amish person smoke? ~blinks~

[DevonShire]

:cool: Yeah, I know I could just do what I wanted, but there is a mutual submission principle in marriage that I respect my wife's judgement. If she says that I shouldn't do something (which isn't often) then I've learned that she is usually right and I'll save heartache down the road.

Oh I agree wholeheartedly with mutual submission. But there is a difference between making decisions together and picking out clothing. I respect my wife's judgment and defer to her about half the time, but I am allowed to pick out my own clothing. Do you have to ask her for her opinion when you want to buy a sweater? Does she have to ask yours before she buys one?

Mutual submission is a must in a Christian marriage, but I would just hate it if my wife had to ask my permission to exercise her taste in clothes and she would just hate it if I had to ask her for permission to do something on such a small, meaningless level. Husbands and wives have to learn how to allow each other to express themselves within the bounds of decency and good taste.

[DevonShire]

~jaw drops~ according to some...smoking is a sin. now why would an amish person smoke? ~blinks~

Because they want to?

[MadFingerPainter]

maybe it's just me but you seem sarcastic DevonShire. am i wrong?

[MrJim]

Oh I agree wholeheartedly with mutual submission. But there is a difference between making decisions together and picking out clothing. I respect my wife's judgment and defer to her about half the time, but I am allowed to pick out my own clothing. Do you have to ask her for her opinion when you want to buy a sweater? Does she have to ask yours before she buys one?

Mutual submission is a must in a Christian marriage, but I would just hate it if my wife had to ask my permission to exercise her taste in clothes and she would just hate it if I had to ask her for permission to do something on such a small, meaningless level. Husbands and wives have to learn how to allow each other to express themselves within the bounds of decency and good taste.

^_^ That's just it--I have no taste! Or in the words of a former employer:

"All your taste is in your mouth":D

I hate buying clothes. I own 3 pair of jeans, 7 pair of shorts, 2 pair of dress pants, 2 short sleeve dress shirts (matching the pants), 3 long sleeve dress shirts, a 2d hand sport coat from the goodwill for $4, and a hundred tshirts. Much of these clothes are work related too. Most everything is at least 5 years old. I detest shopping for clothes--maybe that's why the plain clothes idea is so appealing. No choice, just put on what ya had on last week for church and that's it.

No taste, no imagination, no clue that I wasn't supposed to wear a black belt with brown shoes:doh:.

[DevonShire]

maybe it's just me but you seem sarcastic DevonShire. am i wrong?

No. Not at all. I think most people do the things they do because they want to, and not because of some Biblical precedent.

I guess I should have put a ^_^ in there, but I am new to posting on a board and didn't think of it.

[DevonShire]

^_^ That's just it--I have no taste! Or in the words of a former employer:

"All your taste is in your mouth":D

I hate buying clothes. I own 3 pair of jeans, 7 pair of shorts, 2 pair of dress pants, 2 short sleeve dress shirts (matching the pants), 3 long sleeve dress shirts, a 2d hand sport coat from the goodwill for $4, and a hundred tshirts. Much of these clothes are work related too. Most everything is at least 5 years old. I detest shopping for clothes--maybe that's why the plain clothes idea is so appealing. No choice, just put on what ya had on last week for church and that's it.

No taste, no imagination, no clue that I wasn't supposed to wear a black belt with brown shoes:doh:.

So you weren't asking permission as much as looking for fashion advice. But you could still buy the suit if you wanted to.

[MrJim]

So you weren't asking permission as much as looking for fashion advice. But you could still buy the suit if you wanted to.

Yeah, I could go down to Burkholder's and get one. And no, I wasn't really looking for fashion advice. Maybe I was just looking for an easy way out.

My wife says that in this area the plain suit links you with the plain community and I'm not a plain person.

Maybe if we were living in another area of the country where people have never heard of them she probably wouldn't mind.

[tulc]

Maybe if we were living in another area of the country where people have never heard of them she probably wouldn't mind.

...well the plain folk around here wear this:
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:SUuX9WAH_-ZCXM:http://www.partypro.com/mm_PARTYPRO_/Images/407.JPG and I think Menno would be quite...fetching(?) in something like this! ;)
tulc(you should see what the "fancy" dressers wear!) :sorry:

[Danfrey]

Yes, it is very hard for our girls in this modern age. I don't wear make-up (allergic so I never have) & neither girl is interested. However we have other issues that have arisen from the locker room which have made my older daughter uncomfortable because she is all on her own with hairy legs. Vanity, vanity. All is vanity. Younger dd will be the one. She is a performer at heart & likes the glitz!

I find it interesting that you mention the hairy legs. My wife and I struggled with the idea of weither it was ok for a woman to shave her legs. Interestingly the Holdeman church encourages it as a "all things decent and in order" issue. Personally, I think it is just something they prefer. I lean toward the idea that it is vanity. Much like a man shaving his beard. Granted, I trim my beard, which could be considered vanity as well.

[MrJim]

...well the plain folk around here wear this:
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:SUuX9WAH_-ZCXM:http://www.partypro.com/mm_PARTYPRO_/Images/407.JPG and I think Menno would be quite...fetching(?) in something like this! ;)
tulc(you should see what the "fancy" dressers wear!) :sorry:

Are you a fancy dresser tulc? And don't step on my blue suede shoes^_^

[MrJim]

I find it interesting that you mention the hairy legs. My wife and I struggled with the idea of weither it was ok for a woman to shave her legs. Interestingly the Holdeman church encourages it as a "all things decent and in order" issue. Personally, I think it is just something they prefer. I lean toward the idea that it is vanity. Much like a man shaving his beard. Granted, I trim my beard, which could be considered vanity as well.

Not an issue I would ever get involved with...though it does remind me of a funny story. I was offering mrs. menno to try out a mach3 razor that I had gotten free in the mail. I was already using it and was impressed how well it worked. She won't touch it for fear she would cut herself really bad with a triple razor^_^. I suggested she might want to return to a safety razor with one blade instead of the double blade she currently uses. Can't talk her into to it, but it's fun to pick on her about it.

<<menno nervously wonders how devonshire is going to analyze that last sentence>>

[Danfrey]

I find the discussion about picking clothes interesting. Candice and I were very involved in the others choice of clothing. I helped sew many of her early cape dresses. Then she got better at sewing them so I left her alone. Her favorite skirt ever was an eight panel, ankle length, black cotton skirt that I altered a pattern to come up with. The pattern came from a poodle skirt pattern.

We found patterns in the oddest places. Her skirt from a poodle skirt and my favorite vest and plain coat came from a civil war pattern. How's that for irony. I am looking forward to getting close to my daughter so that we can sew together. Momma Candice made sure that I gave Kiara her sewing machine.

[MadFingerPainter]

tulc has been into the coffee again? ~grin~

Danfrey: i think that's great! i can't sew. i've tried. i set an old fashioned sewing machine to smoking one day and decided i'd had enough at pretending to be domestic. ~lol~

[Danfrey]

Here is a little more background on my sewing that you might get a chuckle over. I bought my first machine when I was 18. I was playing Frank-n-furter in the local Rocky Horror Picture Show and needed it to sew my costumes. Who would have thought I would be sewing plain cloths one day.

[MadFingerPainter]

~giggles~ Rocky Horror??

[Danfrey]

I don't know about the Amish and coffee, but I do know that if a conservative Mennonite offers you a cup, run the other way. I have had some of the worst cups of coffee after a Sunday dinner. Unless of course they bought a bag of starbucks at the scratch and dent grocer.

[Danfrey]

Those who have been forgiven much, Love much.

[MadFingerPainter]

now that i know who Frankie is...~beats table with fist and laughs hard~ Danfrey somehow i have trouble imagining this. ~grin~

[Danfrey]

It was a lifetime ago. I have always been a bit of a nonconformist. Dressing different from the world, crowd, whatever you want to label it comes pretty easy to me. Now I have a much better motivation that back in the teen days though.

[MadFingerPainter]

i think a lot of us were rebels as teens. i wish i had known Christ long before now. i didn't have that luxury. so i've been everywhere i could go that i wasn't supposed to be.

[DevonShire]

I find it interesting that you mention the hairy legs. My wife and I struggled with the idea of weither it was ok for a woman to shave her legs. Interestingly the Holdeman church encourages it as a "all things decent and in order" issue.

How interesting that they would regulate something that is so extra-Biblical and personal.

What other things of a personal nature did they regulate?

Were there similar regulations for men, or just women?

[Danfrey]

I was in a bit of a different situation. I grew up knowing who Jesus was and attending church regularly on my own. Unfortunately, I had a problem with needing a significant other in my life to be happy. This led me down some very sinful roads. Add to that a strong attraction to alcohol and it was a pretty miserable life. The worst part of it all is that I knew better. I was knocking at the door of hell twice before I finally submitted to God's will for my life.

As I look back, it seems like a different person. I still struggle, but it so much easier with Jesus active in my life.

[MadFingerPainter]

i understand Danfrey. i feel the same way. and i went through all that too.

[Danfrey]

It was not a written standard, just something one of the ministers told me when I brought up the question. Men were required to wear the beard and there were several unspoken regulations about what to wear at church. It was being a member in this church that helped me to understand that there is as much danger as help in extra-biblical standards. They are truely a double edged sword. Let me add to this that there were many people who followed them out of their love of God, so I don't want to come across as knocking them. They were wonderful to us.

[DevonShire]

It was not a written standard, just something one of the ministers told me when I brought up the question. Men were required to wear the beard and there were several unspoken regulations about what to wear at church. It was being a member in this church that helped me to understand that there is as much danger as help in extra-biblical standards. They are truely a double edged sword. Let me add to this that there were many people who followed them out of their love of God, so I don't want to come across as knocking them. They were wonderful to us.

Thanks for the well thought out answer. It gave me a meaningful, nonjudgmental and informative picture of the group and their beliefs.

[MrJim]

I find the discussion about picking clothes interesting. Candice and I were very involved in the others choice of clothing. I helped sew many of her early cape dresses. Then she got better at sewing them so I left her alone. Her favorite skirt ever was an eight panel, ankle length, black cotton skirt that I altered a pattern to come up with. The pattern came from a poodle skirt pattern.

We found patterns in the oddest places. Her skirt from a poodle skirt and my favorite vest and plain coat came from a civil war pattern. How's that for irony. I am looking forward to getting close to my daughter so that we can sew together. Momma Candice made sure that I gave Kiara her sewing machine.

:thumbsup:You are a guy of many talents. I've got 2 sewing machines in the house my wife inherited and I can't get her to sew the holes up in the pockets of my work shorts. Maybe I could just send them to you...

[MadFingerPainter]

~laughs~ can i send my mending too?

[MrJim]

~laughs~ can i send my mending too?

^_^ We can hire him out to take care of mending AND makin' us some new clothes. Maybe we'll even get a discount.

[Danfrey]

Ok, but I am sending them all back with purple sequins.

[tulc]

If you added a pair of glasses and a cup of coffee I look a lot like this guy:
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:ZU512ozIfdfiiM:http://www.regressionx.com/wow/Images/orc-warlock.gif
tulc("looks like meats back on the menu boys!")

[Danfrey]

Cute dress. :)

[MadFingerPainter]

i like purple sequins.

[Danfrey]

I wonder how they would look on a cape dress? All joking aside, I actually saw a cape dress made of purple tafata.

--so much for going to bed--

[MadFingerPainter]

i think i'm gonna hafta google now...hehe

[tulc]

Cute dress.

That old thing? I just wear it when I don't care WHAT I look like! :)
tulc(plus I'm more of a sword guy not a spear guy) ;)

[Jehane]

Congratulations guys! That was one of the funniest reads I've had in ages. Danfrey, the mind just boggles!:D

[Danfrey]

Just when you thought you had me figured out.

[MadFingerPainter]

~giggles~

[Aeonian]

This is a topic I've been thinking about the past several years. I appreciated reading your and others' comments about it. I guess my question is if Paul and Peter meant "do not braid your hair, wear costly clothes or jewels," or "do not give much attention to outward beauty--build up your inner beauty with good deeds, a gentle and quiet spirit, etc." Definitely they meant to say "focus on inward beauty"; the question I still have is if they were giving a directive that was a specific ordinance like headcovering--for all the churches, for all time. E.g., it was not forbidden for a man to wear fine clothes and a gold ring and enter a church meeting (James 2); otherwise James would have no reason to condemn favoritism based on outward appearance.

1 Peter 3 can be taken as not being a prohibition but rather an encouragement to focus on the inner man. I actually think that is his point. He says literally, "putting on of clothes." Someone pointed out he's certainly not forbidding putting on clothes. I guess my point is Peter's statement is not so clearly a specific prohibition, and is difficult to use by itself as a basis for this kind of prohibition.

But Paul's statement in 1 Tim 2:9 looks right now to me to basically be some kind of prohibition. I am wondering if it means women should never braid their hair, or if they should not arrange their hair in an ostentatious way. E.g., Jesus said that when we fast, we should wash our face and annoint our head--does this mean we should put oil on our heads whenever we fast, or that we should clean and groom ourselves in a normal way so that our fasting goes undetected by people around us? Is this a similar area that gives room for cultural expressions of decency and modesty?

If God does mean it to be a specific prohibition, I suppose it is easy enough to keep. I just don't want to tell people something is what God means if it is not what he meant. I want to be sure of what I believe on this point.

Thanks for any input you can give. Sometimes these subjects can get volatile :) I saw how calmly and openly people were sharing their convictions and opinions, and it gave me cou