Did Jesus come as God or as a human being? [Archive]

edpobre

27th February 2002, 09:35 PM

Originally posted by AngelAmidala
I think there will be a lot of #3 votes. :) Me included.

It's the write-in vote!!

Friends,

Jesus said: "Enter the narrow gate for WIDE is the gate and BROAD is the way that leads to DESTRUCTION, and there are MANY who GO IN by it. Because NARROW is the gate and DIFFICULT is the way that leads to LIFE and there are FEW who FIND it" (Matthew 7:21-22).

Indeed, MANY may vote for option 3 but does this lead to LIFE? Does the Bible teach that Jesus CAME as FULLY (100%) HUMAN BEING and FULLY (100%) God?

Here is what the apostle John wrote in 1 John 4:1-3 (TEV):

"(1) My dear friends, do not believe all who claim to have the Spirit, but TEST them to find out if the spirit they have is the Spirit of God.

(2) This is how you will be able to know whether it is God's Spirit: anyone who acknowledges that Jesus Christ CAME as a HUMAN BEING has the Spirit who comes from God.

(3) But anyone who DENIES this about Jesus, does NOT have the Spirit of God. The spirit that he has is the spirit of the ENEMY of Christ: you heard that it would come, and now it is in the world already."

Does option 3 come from someone who has the Spirit of God or does it come from someone who has the spirit of the AntiChrist?

Ed

Wearynot

27th February 2002, 10:01 PM

John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

1 John 4:2
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;

1 John 4:3
and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

1 John 2:22
Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.

1 John 2:23
Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

ZoneChaos

27th February 2002, 11:50 PM

Does option 3 come from someone who has the Spirit of God or does it come from someone who has the spirit of the AntiChrist?

Spirit of God.

Limiting Jesus to just one of the other frist 2 options is the Spirit of the Anti-Christ.

PrinceJeff

27th February 2002, 11:57 PM

Zone isn't this spam? Ed lost the debate long ages ago and he still posts the same INC drivel?

OldBadfish

28th February 2002, 01:22 AM

# Count me in for a #3 vote also!

Although Jesus was here in the flesh, he had the mentality of divinity.

ZoneChaos

28th February 2002, 04:46 AM

Originally posted by PrinceJeff
Zone isn't this spam? Ed lost the debate long ages ago and he still posts the same INC drivel?

As much as I would like to call it spam.. it is more just inconsiderate on Ed;s part.. :)

It only shows up in this forum.. and follows the rules (most of the time).. maybe he will get bored when he realizes that no one cares anymore about what he says... /shrug.

But until then.. keep defending against the offenders.. ;)

edpobre

28th February 2002, 08:09 AM

Originally posted by Badfish
# Count me in for a #3 vote also!

Although Jesus was here in the flesh, he had the mentality of divinity.

Hello Badfish,

Option 3 says Jesus CAME as 100% MAN and 100% God. The Bible says Jesus CAME in the flesh or as a human being (1 John 4:2-3).

I have no idea where you got your information that Jesus had the mentality of divinity. Does the Bible say this or does this come from a psychiatrist who had the chance to interview Jesus when he was alive?

Ed

edpobre

28th February 2002, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by ZoneChaos

As much as I would like to call it spam.. it is more just inconsiderate on Ed;s part.. :)

It only shows up in this forum.. and follows the rules (most of the time).. maybe he will get bored when he realizes that no one cares anymore about what he says... /shrug.

But until then.. keep defending against the offenders.. ;)

Hi ZoneChaos,

Thank you for being considerate. That's what I like in KT now CF. They are a bunch of fair and considerate guys much like the people at Christiansareus. You should try posting there too.

Ed

Phoenix

28th February 2002, 09:12 AM

Vote for number 3 as well. :D

John 8:32

28th February 2002, 09:27 AM

I'll vote for #3 also

In Gods Grace

PrinceJeff

28th February 2002, 10:26 AM

It's just that Ed you post essentially the same topic on different threads. That's all.

Optimus_P

28th February 2002, 10:57 AM

its not fair to only have 2 poor choices.

popular vote demands a 3rd option. So lets help them out here and give them that 3rd option.

I vote #3. 100% man 100% God. Just as it is written.

Btw ed dont you think that just after comming back from the ban you would have thought of a diffearnt subject to talk on? This one is kinda beating the dead horse dont ya think?

ZoneChaos

28th February 2002, 07:24 PM

Originally posted by edpobre

Hi ZoneChaos,

Thank you for being considerate. That's what I like in KT now CF. They are a bunch of fair and considerate guys much like the people at Christiansareus. You should try posting there too.

Ed

no prob, ed.. jus' keepin' it real...

VOW

28th February 2002, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by Wildfire
Well Jesus told the disciples many times that he was not of this world; and then days after he died, he appeared several times; talking with them in the streets of Jerusalem in a form that they did not recognize, and also on the shore when Peter & Thomas were fishing. And we are told that Jesus showed them many other things, that could not even be contained in a book, if they were written.

Are you saying that after the Resurrection, He was no longer human?

One of the things that Jesus did specifically after the Resurrection was to eat with the Disciples. He also showed His pierced body to Thomas. (Luke 24: 40-43)

Peace be with you,
~VOW

LouisBooth

28th February 2002, 10:24 PM

both according to the bible.

VeraciousMaven

1st March 2002, 01:28 AM

John 10:30:
"I and the Father are one."

Take that in account with Jesus obviously being a man too, and our option 3 is valid! :D

Irwin Hawkins

1st March 2002, 05:08 PM

Gotta be #3!

With the love of Jesus Christ.

Squall

1st March 2002, 07:00 PM

Jesus came into the world as both God and human being.

Kristen

2nd March 2002, 12:44 AM

There you go Squall!!!

edpobre

2nd March 2002, 11:40 PM

Originally posted by Optimus_P
its not fair to only have 2 poor choices.

popular vote demands a 3rd option. So lets help them out here and give them that 3rd option.

I vote #3. 100% man 100% God. Just as it is written.

Btw ed dont you think that just after comming back from the ban you would have thought of a diffearnt subject to talk on? This one is kinda beating the dead horse dont ya think?

The topic doesn't have anything to do with my having been temporarily banned. The ChristianForum is growing and more people are encountering these topics for the first time. If anyone considers this topic as a dead horse, I suggest that they go elsewhere since there are other topics to reply to.

BTW Optimus-P, you say these are "2 POOR choices." Don't you realize that one of them is BIBLICAL while the other AND the no. 3 option are NOT?

Ed

edpobre

2nd March 2002, 11:49 PM

Originally posted by LouisBooth
both according to the bible.

LouisBooth,

Which Bible?

My Today's English Version (TEV) says: "...anyone who acknowledges that Jesus Christ CAME as a HUMAN BEING has the spirit who comes from God. But anyone who DENIES this about Jesus does NOT have the spirit of God. The spirit that he has is from the Enemy of God..." (1 John 4:2-3).

Ed

Wearynot

3rd March 2002, 01:25 PM

Ed says:

My Today's English Version (TEV) says: "...anyone who acknowledges that Jesus Christ CAME as a HUMAN BEING has the spirit who comes from God. But anyone who DENIES this about Jesus does NOT have the spirit of God. The spirit that he has is from the Enemy of God..." (1 John 4:2-3).

NASB
1 John 4:2
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3. and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

KJV
1 John 4:2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Darby
1 John 4:2
Hereby ye know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses Jesus Christ come in flesh is of God; 3. and every spirit which does not confess Jesus Christ come in flesh is not of God: and this is that [power] of the antichrist, [of] which ye have heard that it comes, and now it is already in the world.

Young's Literal
1 John 4:2
in this know ye the Spirit of God; every spirit that doth confess Jesus Christ in the flesh having come, of God it is, 3. and every spirit that doth not confess Jesus Christ in the flesh having come, of God it is not; and this is that of the antichrist, which ye heard that it doth come, and now in the world it is already.

RSV
1 John 4
2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3. but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

I can't even find a TEV. Gimme a link, please.

PrinceJeff

3rd March 2002, 01:55 PM

Don't trust anything from Ed, a noted heretic.

Wearynot

3rd March 2002, 02:26 PM

Ed and I have been debating for over a year. I always get the impression he dislikes me for some reason.

I wouldn't call Ed a heretic, (although he is one) rather, I would say that he is blinded by the cult to which he belongs and I pray for his eyes to be opened to the truth. Or, the Truth, as it were.

Wearynot

3rd March 2002, 04:08 PM

"John 10:33
The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

He said it. I believe it.

edpobre

3rd March 2002, 11:47 PM

Originally posted by Wearynot
"John 10:33
The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

He said it. I believe it.

Wearynot,

Firstly, I would like you to know that I don't dislike you nor anybody else for any reason.

Secondly, the phrase "Jesus CAME in the flesh" is the SAME as the phrase "Jesus CAME as a human being." In Gen. 6:3, God said that MAN is flesh. Thus, both phrases mean that "Jesus CAME as a MAN" which conforms with what the Bible teaches about Jesus.

Now, regarding John 10:33, please note that "blasphemy" is a charge leveled at a MAN who claims the attributes of a DEITY or a MAN who maks himself God or equal to God.

The Pharisees rightly believed the Jesus was a MAN. But because the Pharisees desperately wanted to get rid of him, they charged him with the crime of "blasphemy" which, at that time, carried the death penalty.

Thus, in John 5:18, they sought to kill him because he said God was his Father. The Pharisees WRONGLY thoughti that he was making himself equal to God by saying that God is his Father.

Again, in John 10:33, the Pharisees WRONGLY accused Jesus of "blasphemy" by making himself God because he said he is the son of God (John 10:36).

Ed

ZoneChaos

3rd March 2002, 11:57 PM

Or, they were right in thinking He was saying He God.

Wearynot

4th March 2002, 11:24 AM

Now, regarding John 10:33, please note that "blasphemy" is a charge leveled at a MAN who claims the attributes of a DEITY or a MAN who maks himself God or equal to God.

Well there ya go! Now that wasn't so hard was it? Jes' kiddin' ya, Ed. Seriously, that is exactly what was happening, they were levelling charges of blasphemy at a man who was claiming to be God. And it follows, since we know that Jesus does not lie, that Jesus was, in fact, God.

This really isn't that difficult, Ed.

jrmorganjr

4th March 2002, 02:02 PM

Ed,

What worldview are you backing into, by stating that Jesus isn't divine? Some offshoot of the gnosticism against which John was making the remarks you quoted?

If he is not divine, how would he have the power to save us from our sins? If we were to concede you your point, where would you go with it?

I just want to see what kind of fruit you're trying to grow, friend. :wave:

edpobre

8th March 2002, 08:35 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wearynot

Well there ya go! Now that wasn't so hard was it? Jes' kiddin' ya, Ed. Seriously, that is exactly what was happening, they were levelling charges of blasphemy at a man who was claiming to be God. And it follows, since we know that Jesus does not lie, that Jesus was, in fact, God.

This really isn't that difficult, Ed.

Wearynot,

Do you really THINK (like the Pharisees) that Jesus was CLAIMING to be God by saying, "I am the SON of God?"

Tsk!Tsk! Tsk!

Ed

[QUOTE]

Wearynot

8th March 2002, 09:56 AM

Do not do me the discourtesy of inferring I am a Pharisee. I have never, in my year or so of debating you, resorted to ad hom. Let us not start now.

Now, to answer your question. "Do you really THINK (rudeness edited out) that Jesus was CLAIMING to be God by saying, "I am the SON of God?"

I dunno, lessee..."John 10:33
The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

Ed's version: [i]John 10:33
The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be the son ofGod."

Choices, choices...do I believe John, the apostle who was beloved of Jesus, and WAS THERE? Or do I believe ed, who trying to read Scripture with that caul over his eyes?

Whaddya think, ed?

drmmjr

8th March 2002, 01:16 PM

You need to read on down a couple of more verses:

John 10:36 - Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Jesus never said he was God.

Wearynot

8th March 2002, 04:19 PM

No, you need to read on down to where Jesus says: John 10:37
"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;

John 10:38
but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

You know something? It just occurred to me that we can parry Scripture with one another all day long, but until one of us (read that YOU ;)) seeks the truth, we will continue to do just that.

drmmjr

8th March 2002, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by Wearynot
No, you need to read on down to where Jesus says: John 10:37
"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;

John 10:38
but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

And if you read a couple of chapters further, you will get an understanding of the how Jesus was in God, and God in Jesus.
John 17:21 - That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 - And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 - I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Jesus asks that they might be one just like Jesus is one with God. If the the disciples (or us for that matter) were one with God, were they God?

Originally posted by Wearynot
You know something? It just occurred to me that we can parry Scripture with one another all day long, but until one of us (read that YOU ;)) seeks the truth, we will continue to do just that.

And I could say the same of you. But isn't that where we are now? You say you have the truth, I say I have the truth. A Jew says he has the truth. None can or will sway the other. All have studied the scriptures. Unfortunately some have studied with a biased opinion that is not clearly shown in scripture, but implied from interpretation of translations.

LouisBooth

8th March 2002, 10:05 PM

"And if you read a couple of chapters further, you will get an understanding of the how Jesus was in God, and God in Jesus.
"

yeah..because they have the same will..;) Jesus is God.

"If the the disciples (or us for that matter) were one with God, were they God? "

This has to do with message and unity, NOT essience. The church is unified with God in action as Jesus was unifed with God the father in action. Look at the context. dr..I went in with an open mind and I was clearly shown Jesus was God. So did the guy that wrote case for christ ;) Good read I might add.

edpobre

4th April 2002, 06:28 AM

Originally posted by Wearynot
Do not do me the discourtesy of inferring I am a Pharisee. I have never, in my year or so of debating you, resorted to ad hom. Let us not start now.

Isn't it true that, like the Pharisees, you too think that Jesus was claiming to be God? What's wrong about my statement my friend? If you don't like to be countted among the Pharisees, all you have to do is open your eyes and STOP thinking like them.

Now, to answer your question. "Do you really THINK (rudeness edited out) that Jesus was CLAIMING to be God by saying, "I am the SON of God?"

I dunno, lessee..."John 10:33
The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

Open your eyes my friend and SEE that the JEWS were accusing Jesus of making himself out to be God. How did the Jews come into this ERRONEOUS conclusion? Jesus himself answered in John 10:36 - by him saying that he is the son of God. The Jews thought, like most professing Christians think today, that being son of God is EQUAL to being God.

Ed's version: [i]John 10:33
The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be the son ofGod."

Choices, choices...do I believe John, the apostle who was beloved of Jesus, and WAS THERE? Or do I believe ed, who trying to read Scripture with that caul over his eyes?

Whaddya think, ed?

First, you THOUGHT it was John who was accusing Jesus of blasphemy by making himself out to be God. If you remove the scale over your eyes, you would have seen that it was the Jews who were accusing Jesus of blasphemy.

Second, You are falsely misrepresenting me because I do not have my own version of John 10:33. If you relate John 10:33 to John 10:36, you would come to the reasonable conclusion that the Jews THOUGHT Jesus was making hinself out to be God when he said he is the son of God.

I THINK my friend that even highly intelligent people like you can be misled into believing a lie if they fail to use their head.

Ed

edpobre

4th April 2002, 06:39 AM

Originally posted by jrmorganjr
Ed,

What worldview are you backing into, by stating that Jesus isn't divine? Some offshoot of the gnosticism against which John was making the remarks you quoted?

If he is not divine, how would he have the power to save us from our sins? If we were to concede you your point, where would you go with it?

I just want to see what kind of fruit you're trying to grow, friend. :wave:

jrmorganjr,

Is Jesus your Lord and savior? Do you believe Jesus? If you answered yes to both questions, we shouldn't have any disagreement as to his state of being. It was Jesus himself who said that he is a MAN (John 8:40). It was also Jesus who said that the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).

Anyone who believes Jesus shall have everlasting life (John 3:16) but anyone who does NOT believe Jesus is CONDEMNED already (John 3:18).

The choice is yours my friend. What I'm growing is the fruit of life. Believe Jesus and LIVE! Reject what Jesus says and DIE!

Ed

Optimus_P

4th April 2002, 09:52 AM

Spend no more time here. Ed has been argueing this ONE point for months, and has gotten no where, even after a banning he comes back to the same argument.

Thinker

4th April 2002, 04:38 PM

A lot of `preaching to the choir' on this thread.

`Son of God' in biblical times was a honorific, not a literal claim - among Jews. As an example, the term `Son of God' was applied to the Jewish magician Honi the Circle Drawer a century prior to the time of Jesus. When a person claimed to be the Son of God, the others around them (if Jews) would automatically interpret that as meaning that here was somebody who considered himself especially favored of God, not his literal son.

The people living around the Jews - the Greeks, the Romans, ect - worshipped a vast pantheon of Gods. In their belief system, these Gods frequently did assume mortal form and beget offspring. The most famous example would be Hercules.

It seems as though an honorific in one culture (Jewish) became a literal claim in another (Pagan). And the Gospels, along with most of the rest of the NT, were aimed at a (once) Pagan audience.

LouisBooth

4th April 2002, 10:18 PM

"When a person claimed to be the Son of God, the others around them (if Jews) would automatically interpret that as meaning that here was somebody who considered himself especially favored of God, not his literal son"

Wow, one of the first people to get it I've seen that's not a christian. Its not especially favored, but equal to God in authority. See pslams 2. Congrats ;)

Nick_Loves_Abba

4th April 2002, 10:34 PM

Ok my turn.

Let us look back into both the OT, and the NT. First, the OT.

Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Not the NT.

Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Hmm, Ed. What do you got to say to THAT! :D

Thinker

5th April 2002, 02:15 AM

About the Jews regarding the term `Son of God' as a honorific and not a literal claim - in my experience, the vast bulk of christians fail to grasp that point either.

Point is, by Jewish standards, Jesus was not guilty of blasphemy by stating such. Which calls to doubt a whole slew of passages in the gospels, and the conclusions christians draw from them. Especially if the Jews belief really is the literal truth - Jesus being somebody who saw himself as being close to God without being divine in his own right.

LouisBooth

5th April 2002, 08:42 PM

"Point is, by Jewish standards, Jesus was not guilty of blasphemy by stating such. "

yes he was, they said it of him when he stated I am the Son of God. Read your NT ;) By Jewish standards anyone claiming that he is equal to God is commiting blasphamy accoring to commandment number 1. If you look at that hebrew word there is means beside me, below me, around me. Basically it states you should have NO other gods at all. Thus none equal to God. This is what the title Son of God claims. Thus the title is a claim of Christ saying he was divine.

Thinker

6th April 2002, 04:29 AM

No, he was not claiming to be the literal `Son of God', and his (Jewish) audience knew it. From their perspective, he was merely saying he was greatly favored of God. Claiming to be God would, in their eyes, have been an act of insanity.

Now in the surrounding (Non-Jewish) cultures, a literal claim to be a `Son of God', would have been acceptable, if outlandish - such was a technique employed by the followers of the more powerfull wizards, such as Apollonius of Tyana.

The Gospels were written, or rewritten by people who had a Non-Jewish perspective on the matter, and little real understanding of the Jewish faith. Mark (often thought to be a pagan convert to christianity) in particular is notorious for his screwups, and both Luke and Matthew are essentially expanded and rewritten versions of his work. John probably underwent at least two rewrites to reflect the theological changes made by that particular group.

I said it before - a Jewish honorific was transmuted to a literal claim by early christians.

edpobre

7th April 2002, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by Nick_Loves_Abba
Ok my turn.

Let us look back into both the OT, and the NT. First, the OT.

Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Not the NT.

Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Hmm, Ed. What do you got to say to THAT! :D

Nick,

Isaiah 40:3 is a prophecy concerning the mission of John the Baptist. He was to prepare the groundwok for the ministry of Jesus who is our "highway" to God. Jesus is the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE. No one goes to the FATHER (God) except THROUGH him (John 14:6).

Ed

Lizzi4Christ

7th April 2002, 04:37 PM

We just went over this in Sunday school this morning. My youth pastor told us this. Jesus is both man and both God. He has 2 natures: human nature and divine nature. Colassians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (KJV). Jesus was God. But he was also human. He was born of a woman. He didn't just appear. He grew in wisdom. Luke 2:40 "And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom" (NIV) Wisdom is being able to apply the knowledge one has. God knows everything, but Jesus had to learn how to apply what He knew. He also grew physically. He had all the basic human needs. He had hunger, thirst, He was tempted, He faced sorrow, He felt fatigue and He was going to die. He was both God and human.

Debbie

7th April 2002, 07:37 PM

1 Timothy 3: 16" And without controversy great is the mystery of Godliness: GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, justified in the spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, recieved up into Glory."

edpobre

7th April 2002, 10:59 PM

Originally posted by Debbie
1 Timothy 3: 16" And without controversy great is the mystery of Godliness: GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, justified in the spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, recieved up into Glory."

Here's the Today's English Version of 1 Tim. 3:16: "No one can deny how great is the secret of our religion: He appeared in human form, was shown to be right by the spirit, and was seen by angels. He was preached among the nations, was believed in throughout the world, and was taken up in heaven."

Which of these versions DOES NOT contradict 1 Cor. 8:6 whose author is also apostle Paul. Moreover, which version upholds the TRUTH that Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3)?

Ed

TheUnknown

7th April 2002, 11:29 PM

So how many ppl believe that Jesus is God in the flesh? :confused:

edpobre

9th April 2002, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by TheUnknown
So how many ppl believe that Jesus is God in the flesh? :confused:

Dear Confused,

Jesus can NEVER be "God in the flesh." God says "MAN is flesh" (Gen. 6:3). Jesus says "GOD is SPIRIT" (John 4:24). Jesus says a SPIRIT does NOT have flesh and bones like he has (Luke 24:39). Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).

Therefore, GOD will NEVER be in the FLESH.

Unfortunately, a lot of people believe that Jesus is "God in the flesh," a belief which goes AGAINST what the Bible teaches and more specifically, AGAINST what Jesus teaches. Anyone who does NOT stay in the teaching of Christ does NOT have God (2 John 9 TEV). And anyone who does NOT believe Jesus is CONDEMNED already (John 3:18).

I hope this helps clear up your confusion.

Ed

PrinceJeff

9th April 2002, 10:07 PM

Ed your posts have just proved how much Satan has a hold on your soul. Keep reading your corrupt TEV and we will see if you get to heaven some day.

LouisBooth

10th April 2002, 12:51 AM

"Jesus can NEVER be "God in the flesh." "

You're wrong ed, John chapter 1 clearly shows he is. Along with that Phil 2:5-8 shows Jesus was God and came down to dwell among us. Then in Col 2:8 it says all the fulliness of the diety dwelt in Christ (ie he was God).

"Jesus says "GOD is SPIRIT" (John 4:24"

This verse is in context refering to worship, not exsistance. I suggest you read context before ripping a meaning out of the verse ed. IE taking it out of context.

edpobre

11th April 2002, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Jesus can NEVER be "God in the flesh." "

You're wrong ed, John chapter 1 clearly shows he is. Along with that Phil 2:5-8 shows Jesus was God and came down to dwell among us. Then in Col 2:8 it says all the fulliness of the diety dwelt in Christ (ie he was God).

Apostle John wrote: "No one has seen God at any time" (John 1:18; 1 John 4:12). Yet you say that John chapter 1 says Jesus is God! How could apostle John have wrote in John chapter 1 that Jesus is God when in the same chapter and in his first letter, he says that "NO ONE (that must include him) has SEEN God at ANY time?"

How can Jesus be "God in the flesh" when Jesus himself SAID that "God is SPIRIT" and does NOT have FLESH and bones like he has? If Jesus were "God in the flesh," are you suggesting that Jesus was telling a LIE when he SAID that "God is SPIRIT?"

"Jesus says "GOD is SPIRIT" (John 4:24"

This verse is in context refering to worship, not exsistance. I suggest you read context before ripping a meaning out of the verse ed. IE taking it out of context.

Of course this verse is referring to worship Louis. But this does NOT alter then TRUTH that God the Father is SPIRIT and that's the reason why TRUE worshippers MUST worship the Father in spirit and in truth (John 4:23).

Verse 23 tells us that the FATHER is seeking TRUE worshippers to worship him in spirit and in truth. Verse 24 tells us that God is SPIRIT and those who worship Him MUST worship in spirit and in truth. Verse 24 seems to be telling us the reason why the FATHER seeks true worshippers to worship Him in spirit and in truth is because God is SPIRIT.

Ed

TheUnknown

11th April 2002, 09:42 PM

Ed your posts have just proved how much Satan has a hold on your soul.

How do you know he doesn't have a hold on you, and every other bible thumping christian on this forum. :rolleyes:

You all presume too much.

LouisBooth

11th April 2002, 10:15 PM

"How could apostle John have wrote in John chapter 1 that Jesus is God when in the same chapter and in his first letter, he says that "NO ONE (that must include him) has SEEN God at ANY time?" "

Ed, I have proven you wrong many many times even on this subejct. Did you want me to do it again? John clearly says Christ is God in chapter 1. To not believe that is just being unscholarly and not reading the words in black and white but in your own little world of illogical reasoning.

"Of course this verse is referring to worship Louis. "

So you agree with me when I say you rip the verse out of context and twist it to mean what you want it to mean?

To take your words out of context, as you do to God, let me use your words to answer my pervious question..."TRUE "

LouisBooth

11th April 2002, 10:16 PM

unknown, you presume too by presuming someone is presumming..dont' point fingers at others, you have three pointing back at you. :)

Apologist

11th April 2002, 10:36 PM

Unbelieveable how people can twist scripture to fit their preconceived theologically heretical beliefs. Ed, why don't you call a good seminary and discuss the original Greek with a scholar so that he can show you how terrible that TEV version you are wasting your time with is. Rightly did Blaise Pascal say: "Truth is so obscure in these times and falsehood so established, that unless we love the truth, we cannot know it."

JohnR7

11th April 2002, 10:42 PM

Jesus had the exact same body we have, and He had to bring it into submission, just as we do.

The only difference between Jesus and what we can be, when we are born again is that He had Divine Blood Flowing through His vains. We have divine blood in our soul.

Having the Mind of Christ, the Divine Nature of God, and the Jesus attitude, is all a work of the Holy Spirit in us. Jesus came to show us the way and to set an example that we are to follow.

When it comes to ministry, the Bride is given a double portion, and so she will do greater works than He did.

TheUnknown

11th April 2002, 10:43 PM

you only have 3 fingers? :D :D :D

edpobre

13th April 2002, 09:59 PM

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"How could apostle John have wrote in John chapter 1 that Jesus is God when in the same chapter and in his first letter, he says that "NO ONE (that must include him) has SEEN God at ANY time?" "

Ed, I have proven you wrong many many times even on this subejct. Did you want me to do it again? John clearly says Christ is God in chapter 1. To not believe that is just being unscholarly and not reading the words in black and white but in your own little world of illogical reasoning.

John 1:1 DOES NOT clearly identify Jesus as God. Is it illogical for apostle John to have written that "NO ONE (including him) has ever SEEN God at ANY TIME." No, because apostle John NEVER believed that Jesus is God.

If apostle John BELIEVED that Jesus is God, he would have written thus in John 1:1: "In the beginning was Jesus and Jesus was with God and Jesus was God." And in John 1:14, apostle John could have written: "And the God Jesus BECAME the MAN Jesus."

Still, it would NOT be illogical or unscholarly to think that the God Jesus NO LONGER exists because it has BECOME the MAN Jesus. The Bible does NOT say, "the word BECAME flesh and spirit or MAN and GOD."

"Of course this verse is referring to worship Louis. "

So you agree with me when I say you rip the verse out of context and twist it to mean what you want it to mean?

Is this how you interpret the above sentence Louis? This only shows your propensity to TWIST anything to prove your point.

To take your words out of context, as you do to God, let me use your words to answer my pervious question..."TRUE "

This was my ansswer in full Louis:

"Of course this verse is referring to worship Louis. But this does NOT alter then TRUTH that God the Father is SPIRIT and that's the reason why TRUE worshippers MUST worship the Father in spirit and in truth (John 4:23).

Verse 23 tells us that the FATHER is seeking TRUE worshippers to worship him in spirit and in truth. Verse 24 tells us that God is SPIRIT and those who worship Him MUST worship in spirit and in truth. Verse 24 seems to be telling us the reason why the FATHER seeks true worshippers to worship Him in spirit and in truth is because God is SPIRIT."

As you can see Louis, whatever the context is, the TRUTH remains that "God is SPIRIT" and that's the reason why the Father SEEKS true worshippers to worship Him in SPIRIT and in TRUTH.

Ed

PrinceJeff

13th April 2002, 10:11 PM

"Let us make man in OUR image". If only the father is God and nobody ascended to Heaven yet, then who is he talking to Ed?

edpobre

13th April 2002, 10:28 PM

Originally posted by Apologist
Unbelieveable how people can twist scripture to fit their preconceived theologically heretical beliefs.

How right you are my friend! FYI,heresy is teaching or believing something that is AGAINST the TRUTH. The Bible is the TRUTH (John 17:17) and Jesus is the TRUTH (John 14:6). Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).

Hence, the TRUTH is, Jesus is MAN not God, and therefore, the TRINITY and DEITY of Jesus are HERETICAL beliefs!

Now, look at some verses that people TWIST to fit their preconceived theologically heretical belief of the TRINITY and DEITY of Jesus:

John 1:1: The Bible says "the WORD was God". Trinitarians TWIST this verse to make it say, "Jesus was God."

John 1:18: The Bible says "NO ONE has ever SEEN God at ANY time." Trinitarians TWIST this verse to make it say, "NO ONE has ever SEEN God at ANY time referring to the pre-incarnate nature of Jesus."

1 John 4:2: The Bible says "Jesus has COME in the flesh." Triniarians TWIST this verse to make it say, "Jesus CAME as God AND man."

And many more verses that would make apostle Paul look like he wrote one thing to one group and wrote the opposite of the same thing to other groups.

Ed, why don't you call a good seminary and discuss the original Greek with a scholar so that he can show you how terrible that TEV version you are wasting your time with is. Rightly did Blaise Pascal say: "Truth is so obscure in these times and falsehood so established, that unless we love the truth, we cannot know it."

Please show me why you think the TEV is a terrible version. The KJV and NKJV talk of a "Godhead" referring to God, but the Old Testament of the sme version NEVER talks of a "Godhead." It was NOT "Godhead" that created the world and man. And look at how rotten the NIV translation of John 1:18 is. It makes Jesus "God, the one and only" who sits at the Father's side. If Jesus is God, the one and only, WHAT is the Father then?

Yes, truth is so obscure and falsehood so established for the last 1600 years, that unless we TRULY seek the TRUTH, we cannot know it.

Ed

edpobre

13th April 2002, 10:44 PM

Originally posted by PrinceJeff
"Let us make man in OUR image". If only the father is God and nobody ascended to Heaven yet, then who is he talking to Ed?

Most professing Christians PRESUME that it was Jesus and the Holy Spirit whom God (the Father) was talking to when he said "Let us make man in our image."

However, there is NOTHING in the Bible to indicate that the SAME God (the Father) who SPOKE was helped in the creation by the son and the Holy Spirit (Gen. 1:1-26). Thus, the Father ALONE created the world.

Was God (the Father) talking to Jesus or to himself?

The ONLY recorded account of someone other than God who was in heaven at that time is Gen. 3:24 where God placed CHERUBIMS or winged creatures at the east of Eden after the fall of Adam.

Thus, it is Biblical to PRSUME that God was talking to CHERUBIMS when he said, "Let us make man in or image."

Ed

PrinceJeff

13th April 2002, 10:47 PM

But Angels are created beings they cannot create.

PrinceJeff

13th April 2002, 10:56 PM

From the TEV itself.....

2 Peter 1:1 says "From Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ— To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have been given a faith as precious as ours

Titus 2:13 says "as we wait for the blessed Day we hope for, when the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ will appear."

Hebrews 1:8 says "About the Son, however, God said: "Your kingdom, O God, will last forever and ever! You rule over your people with justice."

Isaiah 43:11 says "I alone am the Lord, the only one who can save you."

Luke 1:46-47 shows Mary saying "My heart praises the Lord;
my soul is glad because of God my Savior."

But Jesus is Savior right? Yet the INC says he is not God. How can Jesus be our Savior while not being God?

I used TEV verses too by the way. ;)

Karen123

14th April 2002, 12:35 AM

Hi edpobre. :wave:

How odd for me to come here. I was just on another site discussing the Trinity and this is the first thread I read and one of the first posts! :D Quite coincidental since I haven’t written on here in days!

Anyhow you mentioned,
Hence, the TRUTH is, Jesus is MAN not God, and therefore, the TRINITY and DEITY of Jesus are HERETICAL beliefs!

Although a man, Jesus has made it quite clear he IS God. John 10:30: “I and my father are one”. Therefore, even if you say the Father is the only God (as you mentioned) would mean Jesus would be referring to himself as well, because they are one as He states.

Jesus is both man and 100% God at the same time. It boggles your mind huh? I can see how you might get caught on that though. I’ve heard someone else mention think that too. Due to this verse:

John 14:28 Jesus says “Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.”

Your probably thinking… SEE he IS saying the Father is greater! BUT wait, in addition to John 10:30 where Jesus says “I and the Father are one”…read this…

"Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be EQUAL with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross"(Philippians 2:5-8).

If He were not God, how could He "not consider it robbery to be equal with God"?
This verse clearly reflects that Jesus is equal with God.
In addition, Jesus is claiming to be God here as well, because one can not BE EQUAL with God unless one IS God.

So now your probably confused because John 14:28 is saying the Father is Greater than I (first quote mentioned above) but then there’s these other verses that say Jesus IS God (John 10:30) and so hence is of coarse is equal with God, as mentioned in Philippians 2:5-8.

It appears these two verses don’t go together, but we know they DO if the Bible is true in it’s entirety, right? And I believe it is.

Here’s, how they tie together,

Since Christ’s life is supposed to be an example for us, he humbled himself to be less than that of the father to be an example of how we should act toward God. Therefore, He really does have the same power as the Father, but he has reliquished it by allowing the Father to be his guide. Therefore the Trinity is true. If you look back on Philippians 2:5-8, you can see how Jesus humbling himself for the sake of man is reflected in these verses as well.

So the Trinity has merit. Because Jesus is still God. Jesus is just God himself showing people how to act toward him.

----------------------------------------------------------
As an extra, here is a summary of what the Trinity is (for anyone who doesn’t know):

1) The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all different but are all one entity at the same time.
2) All three: Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal. None is considered a higher entity

edpobre

14th April 2002, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by Karen123
Hi edpobre. :wave:

How odd for me to come here. I was just on another site discussing the Trinity and this is the first thread I read and one of the first posts! :D Quite coincidental since I haven’t written on here in days!

Anyhow you mentioned,Hence, the TRUTH is, Jesus is MAN not God, and therefore, the TRINITY and DEITY of Jesus are HERETICAL beliefs!

Although a man, Jesus has made it quite clear he IS God. John 10:30: “I and my father are one”. Therefore, even if you say the Father is the only God (as you mentioned) would mean Jesus would be referring to himself as well, because they are one as He states.

If it is TRUE that the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3), then there is NO WAY that John 10:30 would make Jesus God.

First, the verse does NOT specifically state that Jesus and the FATHER are ONE "God". The word "God" is an ADDITION to the verse that God does NOT allow anyone to do. Trinitarians want Jesus and the Father to be one God. Thus, they ADD God AFTER the sentence to TWIST the verse to FIT their FALSE Trinity belief.

Second, the FACT that John 17:3 is TRUE (thus making the FATHER the ONLY TRUE God), should warn the Bible student NOT to think that the phrase "I and the Father are ONE" makes Jesus ALSO God IN ADDITION to the Father.

Jesus is both man and 100% God at the same time. It boggles your mind huh? I can see how you might get caught on that though. I’ve heard someone else mention think that too. Due to this verse:

John 14:28 Jesus says “Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.”

Your probably thinking… SEE he IS saying the Father is greater! BUT wait, in addition to John 10:30 where Jesus says “I and the Father are one”…read this…

"Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be EQUAL with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross"(Philippians 2:5-8).

If He were not God, how could He "not consider it robbery to be equal with God"?
This verse clearly reflects that Jesus is equal with God.
In addition, Jesus is claiming to be God here as well, because one can not BE EQUAL with God unless one IS God.

So now your probably confused because John 14:28 is saying the Father is Greater than I (first quote mentioned above) but then there’s these other verses that say Jesus IS God (John 10:30) and so hence is of coarse is equal with God, as mentioned in Philippians 2:5-8.

It appears these two verses don’t go together, but we know they DO if the Bible is true in it’s entirety, right? And I believe it is.

If the Bible is TRUE in it's entirety, then, YOUR interpretation of what John 10:30 and Phil 2:5-8 mean is FALSE. Consider:

1)Jesus says "my FATHER is GREATER than I" (John 14:28). "Greater than" is definitely NOT "equal to". Right?

2)Jesus says "I and the Father are ONE" (John 10:30). Jesus ALSO says that "the FATHER is the ONLY true God" (John 17:3). You say the Bible is TRUE in its entirety. Your interpretation of John 10:30 that makes Jesus ALSO God would make Jesus a LIAR because he has already said that "the FATHER is the ONLY true God."

3) Apostle Paul is NOT authorized to CONTRADICT what Jesus TAUGHT about himself abd about God. ONLY Jesus is AUTHORIZED to declared WHO the FATHER is (Luke 10:22) and WHO God is (John 1:18). Thus, apostle Paul TAUGHT that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5) and the FATHER is the ONLY ONE God (1 Cor. 8:6).

Here’s, how they tie together,

Since Christ’s life is supposed to be an example for us, he humbled himself to be less than that of the father to be an example of how we should act toward God. Therefore, He really does have the same power as the Father, but he has reliquished it by allowing the Father to be his guide. Therefore the Trinity is true. If you look back on Philippians 2:5-8, you can see how Jesus humbling himself for the sake of man is reflected in these verses as well.

So the Trinity has merit. Because Jesus is still God. Jesus is just God himself showing people how to act toward him.

Your belief is founded on shaky grounds my friend. God says, "trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean NOT on your own understanding" (Prov. 3:5). Your OWN interpretation of John 10:30 CONTRADICTS what the Lord Jesus teaches (John 17:3). Your OWN interpretation of Phil. 2:5-8 CONTRADICTS what the Lord Jesus teaches (John 14:28). Hence, the Trinity does NOT have any merit at all because Jesus is a MAN - not God.

----------------------------------------------------------
As an extra, here is a summary of what the Trinity is (for anyone who doesn’t know):

1) The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all different but are all one entity at the same time.
2) All three: Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal. None is considered a higher entity

God is the FATHER while Jesus is the SON. The SON proceeded forth and came FROM God the FATHER who SENT the SON (John 8:42). The FATHER is GREATER than the SONA (John 14:28).

The Holy Spirit is SENT both by the Father and the Son. The one SENT is definitley LESS than the one who SENDS. It's as simple as that!

Ed

Karen123

14th April 2002, 04:35 PM

Dear edpobre,

Since you seemed quite convinced the Father is above Jesus. How do you interprent John 10:30?

John 10:30: Jesus says “I and my father are one”.

Lizzi4Christ

14th April 2002, 05:02 PM

Hebrews 1

1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father"? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"?
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."
7 In speaking of the angels he says, "He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire."
8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God , has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy."
10 He also says, "In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end."
13 To which of the angels did God ever say, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"?
14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

God is speaking. And He calls Jesus God. Why would He do that unless there is a Trinity? Jesus is God.

Jahreal85

14th April 2002, 06:24 PM

Honestly, even if you give a poll and most of the people choose what they think or believe, all or our opinions don't matter. It's what the Word of God says that is the one real deciding factor. Therefore, taking a poll is really irrelevant to the Word. The Word makes the poll void.

Basically, we all should be drawing our conclusions based on the Word alone, and what it actually says about Jesus, not on what we think. We should take God at His Word concerning what He said about Jesus because He cannot lie. Regardless of what our finite minds might tell us about what Jesus was, the Word of God is final authourity.

Yes, I believe that Jesus is all God and all man.

Apologist

14th April 2002, 07:15 PM

Ed,

You my friend are deceived and are teaching heresy.
I pray God will open your eyes.

God Bless

PrinceJeff

14th April 2002, 11:46 PM

Hey Ed I see you failed to respond to my post. Hahahahaha. :D

edpobre

15th April 2002, 05:29 AM

Originally posted by Karen123
Dear edpobre,

Since you seemed quite convinced the Father is above Jesus. How do you interprent John 10:30?

John 10:30: Jesus says “I and my father are one”.

First, I'm convinced that what Jesus says is a COMMAND of God, what to say and what to speak (John 2:49-50);

Second, I'm convinced that what Jesus says about himself is true. He says he is a MAN (John 8:40 and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). And I'm convinced this is true;

Third, I'm convinced that Jesus was SENT by God, and being HUMBLE and OBEDIENT, Jesus is of the SAME mind and spirit as the one who SENT him.

Thus, John 10:30 is Jesus'affirmation that he and the one who SENT him are of ONE mind, spirit and judgment. His judgment is like the judgment of God and his caring of the sheep is like God's caring of the sheep.

I'm sure you have head people say, "I'm ome with you on this." Haven't you?

Ed

edpobre

15th April 2002, 05:35 AM

Originally posted by PrinceJeff
But Angels are created beings they cannot create.

Who says God created with somebody's help? God alone created the world and that ONE CREATOR who created EVERYTHING is the FATHER (Is. 63:16; Is. 64:8; Mal. 2:10; 1 Cor. 8:6).

Ed

edpobre

15th April 2002, 06:18 AM

Originally posted by PrinceJeff
From the TEV itself.....

2 Peter 1:1 says "From Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ— To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have been given a faith as precious as ours

1 Peter 1:1 NKJV says "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ..."

Acts 2:14 NKJV tells us that apostle Peter, standing with the eleven says, "Men of Judea and...Acts 2:22, Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a MAN attested by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs which God DID THROUGH him..."

John 8:40 NKJV says, "But now you seek to kill me, a MAN..."

John 17:1 NKJV says, "Father.... John 17:3, "And this is eternal life, that they may know YOU the ONLY true God..."

Considering ALL these verses my friend, do you believe that the faithful apostle Peter would still THINK and write that Jesus is God?

Titus 2:13 says "as we wait for the blessed Day we hope for, when the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ will appear."

Titus 2:13 Mofatt's says "awaiting the blessed hope of the apperance of the glory OFthe great God and OFour savior Christ Jesus..."

Eph. 4:5 NKJV says, "ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE batism,"

Eph. 4:6 NKJV says, "ONE God and Father of all who is ABOVE all..."

All these verses had ONLY ONE author, apostle Paul. Which of the above version of Titus 2:13 AGREES with the OTHER writings of apostle Paul?

Hebrews 1:8 says "About the Son, however, God said: "Your kingdom, O God, will last forever and ever! You rule over your people with justice."

Heb. 1:8 Mofatt's says, "he says of the son, 'God is thy throne for ever and ever, thy royal sceptre is the sceptre of equity."

Heb. 1:9 NKJV says, "You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore, God, YOUR God, has anointed YOU with the oil of gladness MORE than your COMPANIONS."

Which version of Heb. 1:8 makes it look like there are more than TWO Gods and which version doesn't?

Isaiah 43:11 says "I alone am the Lord, the only one who can save you."

Luke 1:46-47 shows Mary saying "My heart praises the Lord;
my soul is glad because of God my Savior."

But Jesus is Savior right? Yet the INC says he is not God. How can Jesus be our Savior while not being God?

[colr=blue]During the time of Mary, there was ONLY one Bible, the Old Testament and Mary was referring to God our savior written in Isaiah 43:11. She ws NOT referring to Jesus.

God MADE Jesus "Prince and SAVIOR to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins" (Acts 5:31).

I used TEV verses too by the way. ;)

And I ALSO use OTHER versions my friend. Did I say ALL of TEV is accurate translation? Am I saying that about Mofatt's, NKJV and other Bibles for that matter?

Ed

edpobre

15th April 2002, 06:33 AM

Originally posted by Jahreal85
Honestly, even if you give a poll and most of the people choose what they think or believe, all or our opinions don't matter. It's what the Word of God says that is the one real deciding factor. Therefore, taking a poll is really irrelevant to the Word. The Word makes the poll void.

Basically, we all should be drawing our conclusions based on the Word alone, and what it actually says about Jesus, not on what we think. We should take God at His Word concerning what He said about Jesus because He cannot lie. Regardless of what our finite minds might tell us about what Jesus was, the Word of God is final authourity.

How right you are! If ONLY we are true to our words and truly take the WORD of God (Bible) as the final authority, we would ALL be taking of the same thing.

Yes, I believe that Jesus is all God and all man.

Are you a hypocrite or are you just plain ignorant? Aren't you aware that the WORD of God says Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:1,3)?

How come YOU (with finite mind) are saying that Jesus is all God and all man?

Ed

edpobre

15th April 2002, 06:53 AM

Originally posted by Lizzi4Christ
Hebrews 1

8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God , has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy."

God is speaking. And He calls Jesus God. Why would He do that unless there is a Trinity? Jesus is God.

What do you notice about the two verses you quoted? Verse 8 says that God is calling His son God. Are you sure this translation is accurate? Couldn't the translator have been wrong?

Take a look at verse 9. First, it makes it look like there are TWO Gods initially. One God is the Father who called His SON God. And the OTHER God is the SON who was ccalled God by the Father (verse 8). Does this agree with the rest of the Bible which says that there is ONLY ONE God?

Second, the SON who was called God (verse 8) HAS a God (YOUR God). How can the SON be the second person of the Trinity and equal to God when the first person is the second person's God?

Third, further down the verse, we see that the OTHER God (the one called God in verse 8) is anointed ABOVE his COMPANIONS. Are the OTHER God's COMPANIONS Gods or men? If Gods, how many are they? If men, why would a God have men for his companions?

Don't you think it this makes the Trinity an absurdity?

Ed

Karen123

15th April 2002, 12:40 PM

Lizzi4christ wrote:
Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
....

God is speaking. And He calls Jesus God. Why would He do that unless there is a Trinity? Jesus is God.

edpobre wrote:
What do you notice about the two verses you quoted? Verse 8 says that God is calling His son God...

I think he's starting to get it you guys!! :clap:

Messenger

15th April 2002, 01:23 PM

I voted Jesus came as man but I think this isn't doing Jesus justice. Jesus was the One and Only Unique Son of God. He was a man but also the Son of God. Jesus came to do God's well. His life was for God. I believe Jesus was one with God as a man and wife gets married and becomes one flesh. It isn't important to me to figure out how they existed just that they do exist. God Jesus and the Holy Spirit are 3 but are all important and 1 without the other would leave us nothing. Jesus lived so that we could know how to live and died so that we could live. The Holy Spirit guides us and helps us to love Jesus and God. God is everyting without God nothing is possible with God all things are possible. Do I believe in Trinity...No. Do I believe in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit....YES! I am not more or less only different. I will live eternally through Jesus. Love and God Bless.

Phoenix

15th April 2002, 01:56 PM

Who is speaking is Isaiah 48:16 ? and where is the speaker being sent by the Lord God and His Spirit ? Translations take from the Blue Letter Bible linked through this website.

"Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord God and His Spirit Have sent Me." NKJV Copyright 1982 Thomas Nelson

"Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret , From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit." NASB copyright 1995 Lockman Foundation

Draw near to me, hear this: from the beginning I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there." And now the Lord GOD has sent me and his Spirit. RSV copyright info

Come ye near to me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there [am] I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Come ye near unto me, hear this, Not from the beginning in secret spake I, From the time of its being, there [am] I, And now the Lord Jehovah hath sent me, and His Spirit.

Come near unto me, hear ye this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I; and now the Lord Jehovah hath sent me, and his Spirit.

Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; from the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord Jehovah hath sent me, and his Spirit.

Come you near to me, hear you this; from the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD has sent me, and his Spirit.

Shane Roach

15th April 2002, 02:01 PM

This question itself shows a misunderstanding of the concept. God created us in His image, so in that aspect, God is man and has been forever. The difference is He comes in Christ in the flesh in this world.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

John 10:30-31 "I and my Father are one." Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, "I said, Ye are gods"? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, "Thou blasphemest"; becauseI said, "I am the Son of God?" If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works; that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in Him.

It is not really a difficult thing. Being man is not incompatible with being god, but not all men are God. We as Christians point to Jesus, who points to God. We are in Jesus, which is how we come to God, but God the Father is in Jesus, and Jesus in the Father, and they are one in the Spirit, and one God.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit....

In other words, the two are different things. And also the body, which in Christ's case is the Word of God made flesh.

This is how it is that he is the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

That's my understanding. I hope perhaps it helps.