Catholicism

[Chris†opher Paul]

What do you all think of Catholicism?

Are we the Church that Jesus founded, as we claim, or are we a corrupted, Pagan-influenced mutation of Christianity?

:)

No fights wanted, just a general impression of the Messianic view of Catholics.

Thanks

[dignitized]

soul: I can tell you, from experience, that most "messianic’s" are very anti-catholic in their leanings. Funny though, that every time a Messianic comes into our sanctuary with the tabernacle front and center they always comment that they have never felt the presence of the Lord to strong before. Go figure . . . .

BTW - we dedicated our prayer chapel in Israel this past week and it was from all accounts wonderful. The highlight being, when the Jewish man who helped to build it, who remained a staunch secular Jew even after 30 years of giving tours to various messianic and other Christian groups of the Holy Land, knelt before the tabernacle and accepted Jesus Christ as Messiah.

[Chris†opher Paul]

Wow, that rocks! :)

I am never ceased to be amazed by the presence I feel in a Catholic Church. Even when I wasnt one, I felt something intense.

[Brain Damage]

Originally posted by Pray4Isrel
Wow!  Praise the Lord!  I can't wait to get back to Israel... the time is now - the harvest is ripe.

It is time for us all to focus on one person:  Jesus the Messiah.

Makes Catholic, Protestant and Messianic differences fade into the background.  We all love Jesus, do we not?

God Bless :) 

 

The truth at last .  :clap:

[Chris†opher Paul]

Jesus says the true disciple is the one that does what He says to do...so that depends. :)

[Chris†opher Paul]

Jesus didnt come to bring peace, but rather, the sword.

:)

(Division for the sake of unity is not true division, nor is it contradictory)

[webboffin]

I don't really want to touch on the subject is Catholicism good or bad. I am not at liberty to cast a judgement. But Mother Theresa was a good person and helped many of the world's worst impoverished. So it is hard to judge a book by it's cover.

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Pray4Isrel
Jesus is the Prince of Peace.

It must be terribly overwhelming to work full-time at dismantling any trappings of unity that can be found amongst Believers.

Whatever happened to the gift of encouragement to lift our brothers and sisters up?  Instead we point at the speck in their eyes...  so sad.

Jesus is the way... the rest is just details.

What unity is there unless we all believe the same thing, as commanded by the Bible?

How can we all think the same thing, having one mind, as the Bible commands, unless we examine our differences and resolve them?

[Chris†opher Paul]

Perhaps you can teach me how to speak in this loving way?

Its in my heart, but I come across swinging a sword...

[Chris†opher Paul]

I did?

Cool, rock on, heh.

[Blindfaith]

P4I, I just love you sister!!  You are such an awesome testimony of grace in action ~ you're an incredible example for me. :hug:

{carry on}

[Brain Damage]

It seems that the apostle Paul was having similar problems with the churches of his day :

1 Corinthians 1
12What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas[1] "; still another, "I follow Christ."
13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into[2] the name of Paul? 14I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius,

Paul manages to resolve issues by keeping the gospel pure :

1 Corinthians 2

1When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.[1] 2For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

[Live4Jesus]

Long as you only look to God and Jesus Christ for your salvation and spritual needs it probably doesn't really matter where you go to church.

Probably there are different degrees of certain beliefs in any denom.

I would just be careful to not get to wrapped up in extracurricular teachings or strange beliefs of spiritual things is all, in any church.

Stick to the Bible. Worship in the valleys and on the mountain tops.

:)

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by Brain Damage
It seems that the apostle Paul was having similar problems with the churches of his day :

1 Corinthians 1
12What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas[1] "; still another, "I follow Christ."
13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into[2] the name of Paul? 14I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius,

Paul manages to resolve issues by keeping the gospel pure :

1 Corinthians 2

1When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.[1] 2For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

:clap:

[Brain Damage]

Originally posted by Live4Jesus
Long as you only look to God and Jesus Christ for your salvation and spritual needs it probably doesn't really matter where you go to church.

Probably there are different degrees of certain beliefs in any denom.

I would just be careful to not get to wrapped up in extracurricular teachings or strange beliefs of spiritual things is all, in any church.

Stick to the Bible. Worship in the valleys and on the mountain tops.

:)

 

I never thought I would hear you speaking like this .  :clap:

Check your blessings .

[Annabel Lee]

Originally posted by s0uljah
What unity is there unless we all believe the same thing, as commanded by the Bible?

How can we all think the same thing, having one mind, as the Bible commands, unless we examine our differences and resolve them?

Souljah..Christians are never going to have one mind. That's what makes us human...Viva le Difference!

It's fine to examine our differences. Trouble starts when we start developing the, "I'm right, you're wrong" mentality.
If we do that, we are no better than the people who bear false witness against the Catholic Church.

We do not want to be like them.

"By Their Fruits You Shall Know Them"

[dignitized]

what is amazing is when you can disagree with some one - even fight with them about some issues - but be able to put down those disagreements and come together and praise God when the time comes :)

[dignitized]

I have an idea for a new thread . . . . :D

[sweetart]

i'm a catholic by blood, and i have certian views of it. (edited post for inappropriate comments towards catholicism)

[seebs]

Disgusting, huh. Wow, that's a pretty loving thing to say.

[sweetart]

hey just because i'm a cathloic doesn't mean i have to like it or believe it. Let me clairify myself, it's just some of the things the pope and the catholic church teach are very offending (edited post for inappropriate comments towards catholicism). That's all.

[nyj]

Originally posted by sweetart
hey just because i'm a cathloic doesn't mean i have to like it or believe it. Let me clairify myself, it's just some of the things the pope and the catholic church teach are very offending and disgusting. That's all.

If you find the teachings of the Catholic Church disgusting, you're not Catholic.

[seebs]

Originally posted by sweetart
hey just because i'm a cathloic doesn't mean i have to like it or believe it. Let me clairify myself, it's just some of the things the pope and the catholic church teach are very offending and disgusting. That's all.

Hmm. I don't think this is the right forum for me, but it seems to me that:
1. If you don't believe it, you're not Catholic, any more than someone who doesn't believe in any form of God is a Christian.
2. After a dozen or so rounds of this, you will have to be understanding if I doubt that it is things actually taught by the Church that are all that offensive and disgusting; normally, when I hear people saying things like that, it turns out to be a result of believing things other people said *about* the Catholic Church, not real Catholic beliefs.

[Brain Damage]

Well I think if we look at her user name , her age and her star sign...a story begins to emerge .

[edward]

Originally posted by sweetart
hey just because i'm a cathloic doesn't mean i have to like it or believe it. Let me clairify myself, it's just some of the things the pope and the catholic church teach are very offending (edited post for inappropriate comments towards catholicism). That's all.

Didn't they say similar things about Jesus?

[Brain Damage]

Er...gee! I just noticed her blessings , how unfortunate . :)

[SonWorshipper]

Opps! Not in this forum, just added 111 :)

[kern]

It seems like Orthodox Jews would have an easy time accepting Sacred Tradition because they have their own "oral torah", they also have the sages who can interpret the scriptures the same way the Catholics believe the church can. But I don't know if messianic Jews accept the "oral torah" or the sages.

-Chris

[Blindfaith]

However one may want to post, please post with kindness.

kern, this isn't directed towards you (I thought I'd mention this since your post is above this one :))

Thanks.

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by Brain Damage
Well I think if we look at her user name , her age and her star sign...a story begins to emerge .

Whats a star sign?

14 year olds don't have opinions at your house Brain?

Jesus was only twelve when he entertained rabbis at the temple for 2 days....

[dignitized]

live4: Jesus was also GOD! hello?? It is a rare teenager who is informed and clearheaded enough to give a proper evaluation of ANYTHING! How does the saying go?

"When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much he had learned in seven years."
-- Mark Twain

[Talmid HaYarok]

Originally posted by kern
It seems like Orthodox Jews would have an easy time accepting Sacred Tradition because they have their own "oral torah", they also have the sages who can interpret the scriptures the same way the Catholics believe the church can. But I don't know if messianic Jews accept the "oral torah" or the sages.

-Chris

Rabbinic Jews have the "Oral Torah", Messianic Jews follow Rabbi Yeshua instead of following the teachings of Rabbi Akiba.

I personally think Messianic Jews and Catholics have a lot more in common with their rites and rituals. However, Jews and Romans (and their respective Christian churches) had a direct antagonism towards each other. This has lead to terminology that has worked hard to exclude any use of the same words even. Because of the Roman attitudes towards Jews that the Catholic church propagated through the middle ages this has lead a lot of Jews to continually viewing the Catholic church with hostility.

Though in Israel at least Pope John Paul II has done a lot to improve relations between the two groups. Not primarily through the various decrees and statements he has made about them, but the love and compassion he showed as a young priest to holocaust survivors and how such a person friendly to Jews in the Catholic church could become Pope in the first place.

May the Peace of our Lord be with you.

[Ruhama]

@Kern -

Yes, the Orthodox have the Oral Tradition but its mentality and methodology are at such odds with traditional Christian thought that the only thing in common really would be the fondness for ritual, I think.

Even then, many Jews perfom ritual because of duty and in order to gain God's favor, not out of celebration as Catholics more usually do.

I think many orthodox are receptive, though - if they will actually hear you in the first place - because they do hold the scriptures in very high esteem and they have been told to ignore the passages that point to Jesus.

[SonWorshipper]

Yeshua taught against the teachings of man, in the past and I believe also in the future. So any religion that goes against this , goes against the teachings of the first century church in jerusalem which is what my beliefs in Messianic Judaism are.

[Magisterium]

31st January 2003 at 02:24 PM Chris†opher Paul said this in Post #9 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=618565#post618565)

Jesus didnt come to bring peace, but rather, the sword.

:)

(Division for the sake of unity is not true division, nor is it contradictory)



Hmm, Interesting exchange of views here.. I agree with you Christopher. However, I would have worded it differently. I do wonder now though, how messianic judiasm differs from christian protestantism besides the acceptance of the new testament. Both have a really heartfelt love of Christ but reject the authority of the church he founded and the precepts of the Covenant. I also would like to know if messianic judiasm follows the same de-centralized hierichical model of government like traditional post-Jerusalem Judiasm. If not, then who is the authority who determines what is acceptable teaching and what is heretical?

[seebs]

Today at 02:43 PM A_B_liever said this in Post #46 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=649276#post649276)

Both have a really heartfelt love of Christ but reject the authority of the church he founded and the precepts of the Covenant.

To be picky, most of us protestants accept the authority of the church Jesus founded - it's called "Christianity", and we get our basic belief structure from it. We just don't accept that the church headquartered in Rome is the entirety of the church Jesus established.

[Magisterium]

Well seebs,
I understand your convictions. (I'm an ex-prot. myself) However, your understanding of "christianity" is a loosly knit idea of Love of Jesus and God. It separates Love of God and Christ from ones beliefs and actions in everyday life concerning morality and values. Jesus taught no such relativism in these matters. To the contrary, he taught (as I'm sure you've seen me post before) that the "Church" is indeed the final say. The church cannot include the many contradicting beliefs of sin and morality represented in protestantism. Jesus explained this in his discourse about a house divided being unable to stand. The splintering of the Protestant "house" is the direct result of the rejection of authority. At any rate, this forum is not about Catholics and protestants, I'm here to ask and learn about messianic judaism. If you have someinsight, please share... thanks...

[seebs]

Today at 03:28 PM A_B_liever said this in Post #48 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=649386#post649386)
I understand your convictions. (I'm an ex-prot. myself) However, your understanding of "christianity" is a loosly knit idea of Love of Jesus and God. It separates Love of God and Christ from ones beliefs and actions in everyday life concerning morality and values.

No, it doesn't. I believe no such thing.

Jesus taught no such relativism in these matters.

At the same time, Jesus spent an awful lot of time talking about loving God and your neighbor, and very little time talking about all the hundreds of additional laws, except when explaining why He felt comfortable ignoring them - for instance, working on the Sabbath.

To the contrary, he taught (as I'm sure you've seen me post before) that the "Church" is indeed the final say. The church cannot include the many contradicting beliefs of sin and morality represented in protestantism.

Nor, I would think, can it include the contradicting beliefs about morality that you see between, say, "Catholic Church in 1997" and "Catholic Church in 379". Unless, of course, most of the stuff we argue about isn't really that important.

[JesusServant]

It gets so old hearing people tell us (non Catholics of any sort) that we do not accept the church that Christ started.  The Church that Christ left us is people.  It is not a building.  It is not an organization.  It is not a debate or parsing Greek and Hebrew words. 

Guess what the Church is?  It is YOU, it is me and it is everyone that God's Spirit dwells in and is a part of God's family!  Your body is to be God's temple on earth now and He no longer lives in a building like in the old covenant where He was only visited by priests in the Holiest of Holies (center of the temple).  Now we have complete communion and fellowship in Spirit with our God and it is awesome!

Some people sound as if God died and left behind a great organization/legacy and we need to join it or suffer His wrath and it frustrates me.  He is alive and well and He lives in people today.  People still receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but the fruits are the most important part of it all.

[Magisterium]

Yesterday at 10:01 PM seebs said this in Post #49 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=649439#post649439)

No, it doesn't. I believe no such thing.



At the same time, Jesus spent an awful lot of time talking about loving God and your neighbor, and very little time talking about all the hundreds of additional laws, except when explaining why He felt comfortable ignoring them - for instance, working on the Sabbath.



Nor, I would think, can it include the contradicting beliefs about morality that you see between, say, "Catholic Church in 1997" and "Catholic Church in 379". Unless, of course, most of the stuff we argue about isn't really that important.



Again, I'd love to engage you in debate over the truth and authority of the church, and how NO DOGMA of the church whether in 397 or 1397, or 2397, can be changed, EVER. But again this is not the place for that discussion. This forum is not about Catholics and protestants, I'm here to ask and learn about messianic judaism's position toward Catholicism and the differences. thank you...

[Talmid HaYarok]

Might be best to start this thread over again.

A good chance to clarify your questions and ask some more specific ones anyways. Thats my opinion, I probably won't read this thread anymore because he hasn't really had much of anything to do with Messianic Judaism.

[Magisterium]

Today at 04:01 AM JesusServant said this in Post #50 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=650013#post650013)

It gets so old hearing people tell us (non Catholics of any sort) that we do not accept the church that Christ started.  The Church that Christ left us is people.  It is not a building.  It is not an organization.  It is not a debate or parsing Greek and Hebrew words. 

Guess what the Church is?  It is YOU, it is me and it is everyone that God's Spirit dwells in and is a part of God's family!  Your body is to be God's temple on earth now and He no longer lives in a building like in the old covenant where He was only visited by priests in the Holiest of Holies (center of the temple).  Now we have complete communion and fellowship in Spirit with our God and it is awesome!

Some people sound as if God died and left behind a great organization/legacy and we need to join it or suffer His wrath and it frustrates me.  He is alive and well and He lives in people today.  People still receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but the fruits are the most important part of it all.



Well, I wasn't gonna do this, but I can't resist. I at least have to say this.. Christ does indeed dwell in each of us, but the church is indeed a visible organization with real authority. In fact, Jesus himself differentiates between the general body of believers and the church in matters of authority. Perhaps most vividly and clearly in Mt:18:15-18

15 ¶ But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.
16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand.
17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.

Notice that in this case, you are to gather one or two more, and IF HE WILL NOT HEAR THEM, TELL THE CHURCH. Further, Jesus instructs that if he will not hear the CHURCH, he is to be dismissed. By your estimation, Jesus was being redundant by first saying to gather 2 or 3 (for they are indeed the church as well as "the church").
What's really such a shame, is that I don't debate because I feel the need to prove my correctness to you. Simple history indicates that the church is true. It's really for your own good. But now I guess I see the meaning of Jesus' discourse about a physician coming for the sick and not for the well. You are obviously well and not in need of the church's guidance... Good for you! I'll add you to my intentions when I say my next rosary ...:pray:
God bless..

[seebs]

I see it the other way; I see the "two or three" followed by "the church" as indicating that a larger body of believers has *greater* authority. Thus, "all the Catholics put together" have a great deal of authority, but "all the Catholics and also the Methodists" have more, and "all the Catholics, Methodists, and Baptists" more still.

[Magisterium]

Today at 05:26 AM seebs said this in Post #54 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=650181#post650181)

I see it the other way; I see the "two or three" followed by "the church" as indicating that a larger body of believers has *greater* authority. Thus, "all the Catholics put together" have a great deal of authority, but "all the Catholics and also the Methodists" have more, and "all the Catholics, Methodists, and Baptists" more still.




Well how can I argue with that? Especially since all these groups all have conflicting beliefs as to just what sin is in the first place.. I didn;t even quote Mt:16:17-19

17 And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.
18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Here you cannot argue the "democratic" view of Jesus' words. He is clearly speaking to only Peter who happens to be the first pope. In fact, in the books of Acts, his authority is shown again and again. The church is so visible in the Epistles and Acts, that you almost have to ignore these books to believe that the church was EVER a democracy...

I also want to apologize to the people who started this thread for saying the word protestant and starting this fiasco. I promise not to argue any further on this topic here...

[seebs]

I think I'll apologize, too, for bringing this off-topic. AB, I may not be convinced, but I think you argue your case well. Thanks for a polite discussion, and perhaps we should pursue this in another forum?

[Magisterium]

Talmid,
You seem to be knowledgeable. Perhaps you can answer my earlier question...
I do wonder now though, how messianic judiasm differs from christian protestantism besides the acceptance of the new testament. I also would like to know if messianic judiasm follows the same de-centralized hierarchical model of government like traditional post-Jerusalem Judiasm. If not, then who is the authority who determines what is acceptable teaching and what is heretical?

[JesusServant]

Yesterday at 11:22 PM A_B_liever said this in Post #53 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=650172#post650172)

Well, I wasn't gonna do this, but I can't resist. I at least have to say this.. Christ does indeed dwell in each of us, but the church is indeed a visible organization with real authority. In fact, Jesus himself differentiates between the general body of believers and the church in matters of authority. Perhaps most vividly and clearly in Mt:18:15-18

15 ¶ But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.
16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand.
17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.

Notice that in this case, you are to gather one or two more, and IF HE WILL NOT HEAR THEM, TELL THE CHURCH. Further, Jesus instructs that if he will not hear the CHURCH, he is to be dismissed. By your estimation, Jesus was being redundant by first saying to gather 2 or 3 (for they are indeed the church as well as "the church").
What's really such a shame, is that I don't debate because I feel the need to prove my correctness to you. Simple history indicates that the church is true. It's really for your own good. But now I guess I see the meaning of Jesus' discourse about a physician coming for the sick and not for the well. You are obviously well and not in need of the church's guidance... Good for you! I'll add you to my intentions when I say my next rosary ...:pray:
God bless..



Do not pray for me in pity or contempt.  That is a terrible thing to do in my opinion. 

Anyways, there is the church and then there's the Church.  I'm not going to go back and forth yet again.  I've given a side and that's good enough for the readers.  I'll just leave you with this...

(1 Corinthians 6:1) Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

(1 Corinthians 6:2) Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

(1 Corinthians 6:3) Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

(1 Corinthians 6:4) If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

Hmmm.  Set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.  Seems as if I've never heard of this practice in the Catholic church.  I thought matters were decided by elected officals at the high end of the hierarchy?

[Magisterium]

Yesterday at 01:01 PM JesusServant said this in Post #58 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=650542#post650542)

Do not pray for me in pity or contempt.  That is a terrible thing to do in my opinion. 

Anyways, there is the church and then there's the Church.  I'm not going to go back and forth yet again.  I've given a side and that's good enough for the readers.  I'll just leave you with this...

(1 Corinthians 6:1) Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

(1 Corinthians 6:2) Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

(1 Corinthians 6:3) Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

(1 Corinthians 6:4) If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

Hmmm.  Set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.  Seems as if I've never heard of this practice in the Catholic church.  I thought matters were decided by elected officals at the high end of the hierarchy?



Well, I guess since the people who could answer my question about Messianic Judiasm are IGNORING ME :rolleyes: , I'll go ahead and engage you on your terms.... :(

First of all, let me repost the verses you posted but in context.

1 ¶ Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to be judged before the unjust: and not before the saints?
2 Know you not that the saints shall judge this world? And if the world shall be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know you not that we shall judge angels? How much more things of this world?
4 If therefore you have judgments of things pertaining to this world, set them to judge who are the most despised in the church.
5 I speak to your shame. Is it so that there is not among you any one wise man that is able to judge between his brethren?
6 But brother goeth to law with brother: and that before unbelievers.
7 Already indeed there is plainly a fault among you, that you have law suits one with another. Why do you not rather take wrong? Why do you not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
8 But you do wrong and defraud: and that to your brethren.

Now, First of all, let's understand what we're reading. The Apostle Paul (a bishop) is writing a letter to the clergy (church officials) of the church he founded in Corinth. As I stated earlier to seebs, the epistles and Acts really demonstrate the hierarchy and functions of the church.
Moving on, as we see here, Paul is reprimanding the Corinthian clergy members for bringing internal disputes to civil "authorities". (verse 6) If you read verse 2 carefully, you see that he is reminding them of their saintly calling. By indicating that they will judge the world (as saints), he scolds them for not judging the small matters among themselves. (expanded upon in verse 3). Now that we have the correct context, we can better understand verse 4 which your argument hangs on. By choosing as judge "he who is most despised" they are guaranteed impartiality. The "judge" is universally disliked and unlikely to be partial. He then continues and emplores them to avoid seeking vengeance in these matters in the first place. (verse 7) Hopefully now, these verses are clearer to you.
Additionally, you stated that you thought these matters were handled by "elected officals at the high end of the hierarchy". This is untrue. Non-Doctrinal disputes between clergy (which are virtually nonexistent) are not judged by the pope (or any other elected position)

As for the prayer thing, I do indeed pray for you and all who reject the church with pity and hope. Contempt is the last thing I would ever express.
My pity is because I recall Jesus words in Luke 10:16
"16 He that heareth you heareth me: and he that despiseth you despiseth me: and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me."

My hope is because I remember Jesus words in John 13:20.
"20 Amen, amen, I say to you, he that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me: and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me."

Jesus in Luke 10:16 makes it clear, that the popular notion today that you can be a good "christian" without following the church, is not true. You can't hear Jesus without hearing those whom he sent. Likewise, you can't truly love jesus and despise those whom he sent. So yes, it remains my prayer that you and all who oppose the authority and teachings of the church will experience a softening of heart and explore with humility the church's precepts and come to full communion with Christ... :pray:



:priest:

[JesusServant]

Today at 01:38 AM A_B_liever said this in Post #59 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=652534#post652534)

Well, I guess since the people who could answer my question about Messianic Judiasm are IGNORING ME :rolleyes: , I'll go ahead and engage you on your terms.... :(

First of all, let me repost the verses you posted but in context.

1 ¶ Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to be judged before the unjust: and not before the saints?
2 Know you not that the saints shall judge this world? And if the world shall be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know you not that we shall judge angels? How much more things of this world?
4 If therefore you have judgments of things pertaining to this world, set them to judge who are the most despised in the church.
5 I speak to your shame. Is it so that there is not among you any one wise man that is able to judge between his brethren?
6 But brother goeth to law with brother: and that before unbelievers.
7 Already indeed there is plainly a fault among you, that you have law suits one with another. Why do you not rather take wrong? Why do you not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
8 But you do wrong and defraud: and that to your brethren.

Now, First of all, let's understand what we're reading. The Apostle Paul (a bishop) is writing a letter to the clergy (church officials) of the church he founded in Corinth. As I stated earlier to seebs, the epistles and Acts really demonstrate the hierarchy and functions of the church.
Moving on, as we see here, Paul is reprimanding the Corinthian clergy members for bringing internal disputes to civil "authorities". (verse 6) If you read verse 2 carefully, you see that he is reminding them of their saintly calling. By indicating that they will judge the world (as saints), he scolds them for not judging the small matters among themselves. (expanded upon in verse 3). Now that we have the correct context, we can better understand verse 4 which your argument hangs on. By choosing as judge "he who is most despised" they are guaranteed impartiality. The "judge" is universally disliked and unlikely to be partial. He then continues and emplores them to avoid seeking vengeance in these matters in the first place. (verse 7) Hopefully now, these verses are clearer to you.
Additionally, you stated that you thought these matters were handled by "elected officals at the high end of the hierarchy". This is untrue. Non-Doctrinal disputes between clergy (which are virtually nonexistent) are not judged by the pope (or any other elected position)

As for the prayer thing, I do indeed pray for you and all who reject the church with pity and hope. Contempt is the last thing I would ever express.
My pity is because I recall Jesus words in Luke 10:16
"16 He that heareth you heareth me: and he that despiseth you despiseth me: and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me."

My hope is because I remember Jesus words in John 13:20.
"20 Amen, amen, I say to you, he that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me: and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me."

Jesus in Luke 10:16 makes it clear, that the popular notion today that you can be a good "christian" without following the church, is not true. You can't hear Jesus without hearing those whom he sent. Likewise, you can't truly love jesus and despise those whom he sent. So yes, it remains my prayer that you and all who oppose the authority and teachings of the church will experience a softening of heart and explore with humility the church's precepts and come to full communion with Christ... :pray:



:priest:



Thank you for correcting me.  I am always wrong on every point I have ever made or will make.  I am sorry I wasted your time.

Now as P4I said, lets get back to the original topic.

[Blindfaith]

[mod hat on]


If this discussion cannot be conducted in a civilized, mature and loving way, it will be closed for a specific, if not permanent, amount of time and a possible official warning given.

Temper the comments, and remember Who it is you're really serving. 

Thank you.

[mod hat off]

[Magisterium]

Yesterday at 09:16 PM Pray4Isrel said this in Post #62 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=653467#post653467)

You are not actually taking it upon yourself to judge whether anyone here is "opposing the authority and teachings of the church", are you?

I'll kindly ask you to refrain from your above comments.  This is an "unofficial" reminder.

Catholic vs. Protestant discussions have a seperate forum. 




Actually, I (again) apologize for engaging in a scriptural exchange over protestantism. However, if you go back a page or two, I have asked twice some specific questions about messianic Judiasm. I was hoping that you or talmid would be able to answer my questions, However, the only response I got was from the protestant guy attacking me. At any rate, It is not my intention to offend anyone here (or anywhere for that matter). I sincerely regret offending anyone who might have been reading my explanation of new Testament scripture. At any rate, I'll pose my original question yet again and hopefully someone with some insight into messianic Judiasm will be able to answer my humble question. thank you...

I do wonder now though, how messianic judiasm differs from christian protestantism besides the acceptance of the new testament. I also would like to know if messianic judiasm follows the same de-centralized hierarchical model of government like traditional post-Jerusalem Judiasm. If not, then who is the authority who determines what is acceptable teaching and what is heretical?

[dignitized]

Funny how people overlook what I said early on in this thread . . . . :sigh: I guess some people would rather just argue rather than discuss.

[chelcb]

I would like to know the Messianic answer to A_B_liever's question also?

[Talmid HaYarok]

Sorry A_B, I had given up no this thread and stopped paying attention to it.

No, Messianic Jews do not have a central authority. Throughout the centuries of persecution primarily by Gentile Christians and Orthodox Jews most congregations do not have a long history, but rather get scattered and new ones formed by members in other places. The Torch of faith has been passed on, but the buildings, congregations, and organizations have never had a chance to remain the same.

After the Bible (the WHOLE bible) the #1 deciding factor in Messianic Judaism I would have to say is tradition. Most importantly the traditions of early Messianic Jews. Jewish tradition is also taken into account though and what is consider appropriate in a Messianic setting is often kept and deemed unchangable.

For the most part what is "heretical" Vs. "Orthodox" is pretty well grounded and there is not much need for those types of discussions as most of the important ones were held about 1900 years ago. You will however find a ton of theological disagreements from congregation to congregation. Of course thats just normal Jewish fair anyways. Its an old saying that "Where you find two Jews, you'll find three opinions!". I think it is even more true of Messianic Jews than the Orthodox Jews that saying originally referred to. The truth is that so long as we hold true the core Orthodox beliefs and live our faith in the Messiah I don't think the other minor differences matter.

I hope that answers your question.

Peace.

[JesusServant]