The Two Kingdoms: Of God & Of Man

[MrJim]

I would like us to flesh out this teaching. I believe that it is a lost teaching that needs to be thoroughly examined. It has been touched on here and there.

[ZiSunka]

Yes, I strongly believe there are two kingdoms, earthly kingdoms and the heavenly kingdom.We belong to both. We have dual citizenship, so to speak. We are here in this earthly kingdom, but it is not our natural home. We are in this world, but not of it. We can have citizenship in our home country and in heaven at the same time (just try to get a passport from Heaven, or to get the guys at Immigration to accept such a passport). The reality is that as long as we have these mortal bodies, we are dual citizens. I also believe strongly that it is an upsidedown kingdom.

[tulc]

Ever read this?(Little is known about Hans Schnell except that he was a Swiss Brethren Anabaptist who sometimes went by the name Hans Beck. In 1541 his wife, Margarete, was imprisoned for her faith. He left the faith for some 14 years, but had returned by 1575 and was an elder, baptizing, and preaching at night in the fields in the area of Urbach and Gottingen in south Germany. The following document dates to about 1575 but retains immediacy because it still sums up the position of many Christian pacifists, and because among the enemies early Anabaptists refused to fight were aggressive Ottoman Turks—a serious Muslim threat in Europe.) There are two different kingdoms on earth—namely, the kingdom of this world and the peaceful kingdom of Christ. These two kingdoms cannot share or have communion with each other.The people in the kingdom of this world are born of the flesh, are earthly and carnally minded. The people in the kingdom of Christ are reborn of the Holy Spirit, live according to the Spirit, and are spiritually minded. The people in the kingdom of the world are equipped for fighting with carnal weapons—spear, sword, armor, guns, and powder. The people in Christ's kingdom are equipped with spiritual weapons—the armor of God, the shield of faith, and the sword of the Spirit to fight against the devil, the world, and their own flesh, together with all that arises against God and his Word. The people in the kingdom of this world fight for a perishable crown and an earthly kingdom. The people in Christ's kingdom fight for an imperishable crown and an eternal kingdom.Christ made these two kingdoms at variance with each other and separated. There will therefore be no peace between them. In the end, however, Christ will crush and destroy all the other kingdoms with his power and eternal kingdom. But his will remain eternally. … When God made his covenant with Noah after the flood, he commanded vengeance and punishment with the power of the sword to punish the evil and put to death the blood guilty and murderers, saying, &quot;Whoso sheddeth men's blood, by man shall his blood be shed.&quot; This vengeance to punish evil has remained unaltered in the kingdom of this world with its temporal authority and will remain until the Last Day of his coming, when God will annihilate all the power of this world. Christ also testifies to this when he commanded Peter: &quot;Put up your sword.&quot; From these words of Christ we learn that the power of the sword will remain in the kingdom of this world to put to death the blood guilty and murderers according to his Father's order.But in his kingdom peace should be kept, as he says to Peter: Put up thy sword in its sheath and let them proceed. For that reason he healed Malchus' ear at once, and does not want Christians to fight with the sword for their lives.Concerning this power of the sword Paul teaches us, saying: &quot;The powers that be are of God. … For rulers are not a terror to good works but to the evil.&quot; Also: &quot;He beareth not the sword in vain, for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.&quot;The power of the sword in the kingdom of this world is ordained and commanded by God, and whoever resists the ruler, unless he orders what is against God, resists God's order. But if the authorities command something that is against God, I say with Peter and John: &quot;It is better to obey God than men.&quot; Likewise the three men in the fiery furnace and Daniel in the lion's den.Paul's words cited above prove that the vocation of government and the vocation of the Christian are diametrically opposed to each other, like light and darkness.Therefore the government is a good institution in the world, in that it punishes the bad and protects him who does good. For if there were no government, one could not keep order on earth. Each would then do violence to the other.But Christ has given those in his kingdom a very different calling and office. &quot;Recompense to no man evil for evil.&quot; Also: &quot;Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves but rather give place unto wrath. For it is written, 'Vengeance is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord.'&quot; Further: &quot;If thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.&quot;The government is taught to execute vengeance and slay the blood guilty and murderers. In the New Testament Christians are forbidden all revenge and resistance; they are not to resist evil. Peter merely wants permission to ask for revenge. But Christ not only refuses him this, but reprimands him for it, saying: &quot;Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.&quot; A Christian in the peaceful kingdom of Christ has a loving, peaceable, merciful spirit in the manner of Christ's. He forgives the penitent sinner all sin and transgression. He does not resist evil. He kills nobody physically. He does not preserve his possessions with force but rather presents also the other cheek rather than to oppose the one who strikes him with force. He does not war. He does not injure and kill people but prays for those who persecute and rob him. He who is born again through the Spirit has his Father's nature and qualities in him and is minded as Jesus Christ was minded. Christ not only forbade revenge in his kingdom but also, but his death on the cross, left us an example for us to follow in his footsteps, and prayed for his foes on the cross, which believers also do. … God uses the government as his minister, whether it performs well or badly. If they are tyrants, God uses them as his rod of punishment, who will, however, at the proper time be held accountable to their Superior and will have to render an exceedingly strict account, as it is written: &quot;The powerful will suffer powerful pain.&quot;Got this here: <a href="http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/139/56.0.htmltulc(" target="_blank">http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/139/56.0.html

[tulc]

Man something is wigging out on this site tonight!tulc(hopes we don't crash again!)

[MrJim]

Excellent post tulc. That is the Two Kingdoms. Can we have dual citizenship--isn't that attempting to serve two masters?

[ZiSunka]

Excellent tulc!I agree wholeheartedly that the kingdom of God and the citizens of God's kingdom, should have no part in military matters or in providing for the military because the military is all about using death, violence and force.When I said we have dual citizenship, I was not at all implying that we somehow balance our service to God and our service to our country. There are plenty of unsaved people who are willing to serve our country, let the ones who never knew our Lord take our government as their master--we'll serve only God.But in a non-spiritual sense, we are still citizens of this country (whatever nation you live in), and have responsibilities to this nation--to pay our taxes, to respect our president, to obey our laws, to keep the peace with our community, to be kind to our neighbors, to help the poor and elderly, to provide for the education of the nation's children, to abide by the laws of travel to other countries (including obtaining a passport from our home country before we travel abroad), and in this nation, the responsibility to vote.I say responsibility because God ordained this nation to come into being; I doubt anyone would disagree with that. And God ordained that this nation would have public participation in the government. To refuse to participate by voting is to tell God you don't like the system he made for us in this place at this time.In the 1200's and 1300's in Europe, no one had the write to vote. Everyone was subject to their king. To say that we shouldn't vote because the early mennonites didn't vote is like saying we shouldn't use the internet because the early mennonites didn't use the internet--it's non sequitor!I strongly believe God allowed this country to be a republic as a test for us Christians, to give us the opportunity to have direct input into the decisions our leaders make, to see if we would be as faithful to his teachings on a huge scale as we are in our own homes.When we refuse to vote because the early Christians didn't vote or the early anabaptists didn't vote, we fail that test. We allow things like abortion to flourish, gay unions to be accepted and legalized, for no-fault divorce to be the law of the land, for polygamy, incest and pedaphilia to become integrated into our society. We are saying we don't care about evil, as long as it doesn't affect us. We are saying that our separation from the common man is so complete that we don't care about the well-being of anyone who isn't a Christian.I doubt that is a message God would approve of.And that's why so many thousands of Amish registered and voted. And I think they did the right thing. Unless we stand up in the public forum and let people know we object to immorality, they are going to assume we don't care, and then they will really be right when they call us hypocrites.

[Danfrey]

Decided to take a different approach. Disregard this message.

[MrJim]

Standing in the public forum and declaring what laws ought to be? Like Jesus did?

Yeah, I know we live in a different age with a different gov't...but I'm trying to picture Christ in the public political forum...no, not running for office but somehow walking that perfect holy line in these issues.

As "cut and dried" as things often seem to be it would be like Him to do something that would appear to be "upside down" for us.

[Danfrey]

Funny, that in many cases we can't get Church politics under control and many in our numbers would like to participate in world politics.

I think many times we expect the government to pick up the slack that the church is refusing to carry.
- Do something about the hungry
- House the homeless
- Enforce sexual immorality
- If we could get this one right in the church we would be taking a big step in the right direction.

[ZiSunka]

- Do something about the hungry
- House the homeless
- Enforce sexual immorality
- If we could get this one right in the church we would be taking a big step in the right direction.

Churches as institutions don't seem interested in anything but adding numbers to the membership.

It's left up to individuals and parachurch organizations to do those things.

[MrJim]

Churches as institutions don't seem interested in anything but adding numbers to the membership.

It's left up to individuals and parachurch organizations to do those things.

?Maybe it's time to walk away from the institution....?

[ZiSunka]

?Maybe it's time to walk away from the institution....?

I think that's where you and I and Danfrey are right now, aren't we?

[Danfrey]

I am outside the institution at the moment, but it looks like we are headed back into it to a certain point. I am looking in to the Conservative Mennonite Conference churches as a place for my family to attend. I find that with two teenagers it makes alot of sense to have the strucure an institution brings. I never thought I would be looking at leaving house churches, but for now it appears there is a better solution for my family.

I agree that it is a shame that institutional churches have forgotten why we are to give. The first priority is to take care of the widows and orphans. It is not to pay for the local radio spot, or build a gym in the church or buy new uniforms for the church softball league.

[MrJim]

I am outside the institution at the moment, but it looks like we are headed back into it to a certain point. I am looking in to the Conservative Mennonite Conference churches as a place for my family to attend. I find that with two teenagers it makes alot of sense to have the strucure an institution brings. I never thought I would be looking at leaving house churches, but for now it appears there is a better solution for my family.

I agree that it is a shame that institutional churches have forgotten why we are to give. The first priority is to take care of the widows and orphans. It is not to pay for the local radio spot, or build a gym in the church or buy new uniforms for the church softball league.

:sigh:yeah a couple of churches bought ground around here and the first thing built was a softball field...one calls it a "ministry park".

[ZiSunka]

:sigh:yeah a couple of churches bought ground around here and the first thing built was a softball field...one calls it a "ministry park".

One church here just had a ribbon cutting yesterday on their ministry park. I have to say I don't think it's the worst idea in the world in their case. They are an innercity church and there are no safe places for the kids to play in their neighborhood, no parks, no playgrounds, no rec centers within a 4 mile radius, and the parks outside that range are in poor condition and are unsafe for the children. Most of the kids in that neighborhood are left home alone all day while the parents work. I think it's good for the church to take it upon themselves to provide a safe place for the kids, because during the daytime, they really are kind of like orphans.

But I agree that most churches spend most of the money buying fancier light fixtures and carpet and having softer cushions put on the pews and having ice cream socials to which no one outside their church ever comes, and giving bonuses to the ministry staff and so on. I know one church that gave $5000 bonuses to their staff last year because they wanted them to "have the best Christmas ever." Like having a good Christmas has anything to do with having a lot of money.

[MrJim]

One church here just had a ribbon cutting yesterday on their ministry park. I have to say I don't think it's the worst idea in the world in their case. They are an innercity church and there are no safe places for the kids to play in their neighborhood, no parks, no playgrounds, no rec centers within a 4 mile radius, and the parks outside that range are in poor condition and are unsafe for the children. Most of the kids in that neighborhood are left home alone all day while the parents work. I think it's good for the church to take it upon themselves to provide a safe place for the kids, because during the daytime, they really are kind of like orphans.



Now see that is EXACTLY the sort of thing that needs to be done. The two churches I'm speaking of moved out of the city and one out into farm country. A lot of churches in town are moving out for greener pastures--I don't think it's intentional, but it does keep a certain "element" from just walking in the door:cry:

On the plus side, other's take over the building. One now has a hispanic pentecostal service and another is being bought by large charismatic church. Then I found out that the SBC church down the street is moving out into the 'burbs so I wonder who'll be taking theirs?

[Jehane]

Not sure if I've followed all the arguements & am on track here but one thing that happened here recently struck me as completely insane. A charismatic church has started up with the statement they want to reach as many lost as possible. Now don't get me wrong. I think that's a good thing. Unfortunately in the process they are not building up & strengthening or growing into maturity the Christians they have. Consequentially they are neither teaching nor discipling new believers & I think those two things are absolutely essential or we end up with people running round claiming to be Christians who don't have even the first principles right & that is not a good thing. We were going for a little while as it is at a different time to our regular service but can no longer attend in good conciouness.

[Danfrey]

Jehane,

We have the same problem here. In an effort to be seeker friendly, churches lay aside teaching doctrine. I agree that we need to open to seekers and reach out to the hurting, but not at the expense of discipleship. I see the message as "Come as you are", not "Stay as you are". Maybe there are lessons to be learned from the theologically deep churches and the seeker friendly churches. Let us learn from both, keep the good and grow beyond the bad.

[Danfrey]

Walkin,

That is the kind of sports park that I can support. The type I was critisizing is the type that is outside the church with a locked gate. Kind of liek the church that has the sign up in thier parking lot "Church parking only".

[ZiSunka]

Walkin,

That is the kind of sports park that I can support. The type I was critisizing is the type that is outside the church with a locked gate. Kind of liek the church that has the sign up in thier parking lot "Church parking only".

Yikes! I see what you mean then.

There used to be a church in West Milton that had a sign at the entrance to the parking lot that said, "Keep out. Authorized vehicles on official church business only." People would start to pull in for services, see the sign, then turn around and go away.

The signs were meant to keep tractor-trailers from parking in the lot overnight.

Eventually they figured out that that seems kind of unfriendly, like maybe only established members would have the right kind of "authorized" stickers or something.

So they changed the sign to "welcome." They didn't suddenly get visitors, though. After years of being put off by the "keep out" sign, the community had built up a resentment against the church.

I know the kind of "ministry park" you are talking about now. The kind where they call the cops because two little kids are playing ball there on the weekdays. :(

We Christians seem to do a lot of our own bad PR, if you ask me. :sigh:

[MrJim]

Maybe that is some of the 2 kingdoms overlapping. The kingdom of man is all about possessions. If we build our religious institutions & edifices "to God" and then act like the world regarding them, then maybe it's failed.

In my studies and "flirting" with the Roman Catholic Church, the one thing I could not get away from was the wealth and the power. While I had great admiration for some of the Franciscans, there was still St. Peter's and all the $$ while many local parishes suffer for support and ministries looking for $$ to put a tin roof over a little church in Ghana someplace. RCC sure ain't the only guilty ones by a long stretch but it's an easy example. Whenever I see a plaque in a church for some donation given in honor/memory for something (there's even one in our little church for the sofa & chairs in the lobby) I just sorta sigh.

[ZiSunka]

Maybe that is some of the 2 kingdoms overlapping. The kingdom of man is all about possessions. If we build our religious institutions & edifices "to God" and then act like the world regarding them, then maybe it's failed.

In my studies and "flirting" with the Roman Catholic Church, the one thing I could not get away from was the wealth and the power. While I had great admiration for some of the Franciscans, there was still St. Peter's and all the $$ while many local parishes suffer for support and ministries looking for $$ to put a tin roof over a little church in Ghana someplace. RCC sure ain't the only guilty ones by a long stretch but it's an easy example. Whenever I see a plaque in a church for some donation given in honor/memory for something (there's even one in our little church for the sofa & chairs in the lobby) I just sorta sigh.

Someone once told me that they admire the Catholic church because it doesn't do active fundraising, but is supported by the willing gifts of the members worldwide. I couldn't figure out what catholic church they were talking about. The ones around here run constant fundraisers from bingo to cavatelli dinners to fish fries to rummage sales to sales of rosaries and holy medals right in the santuary.

Even some anabaptist churches are guilty of using fundraisers like car washes, book sales (selling ungodly books right next to Bibles, by the way), ice cream socials where they charge non-members for the ice cream, etc.

One church I used to go to had a better idea. They had a box in the hallway and if there was a special need, people could voluntarily put a little money, as much or little as they decided, into the box anonymously whenever they got the chance.

[MrJim]

I never cared for the gimmicks. If there is a need tell me/us what it is and we'll give if able. But don't "sell" me something...

[Jehane]

Two things about the Catholic church I truely admire: Firstly out here their churches are never ever locked. They are always open for people to come in, pray, light a candle. Secondly, no matter how small the parish, or how few turn up for worship there is always someone comes to lead the service & I particularly admire that because our church has only very recently been able to provide that & then only by training its lay people to lead. Secondly we've been on the island nearly 20 years & in that time the charismatics have come & gone, come & gone, come & gone, the Anglicans send someone over once a month - if they're lucky. They're trying to get that congregation to travel to the closest mainland church but as it's mostly oldies if they shut down they won't go anywhere & absolutely no other denomination wants to know about us, yet there are plenty of Christians out here. This in a country where parishes have traditionally been thousands of square miles with only a few farming families scattered over all that distance. Sometimes the Catholic church appears quite schizophrenic given that the other side of the coin is huge amounts of both wealth & power.

[ZiSunka]

Firstly out here their churches are never ever locked.

Must be different in Australia. Around here, they are locked unless they are getting ready to have a service. Around here, only a few churches are unlocked all the time.


Secondly, no matter how small the parish, or how few turn up for worship there is always someone comes to lead the service

Around here, if a church isn't profitable, they cancel services and if that doesn't solve the money problems, they close the church. In the last 10 years, they've closed about 17 churches in this diocese alone. On Pine Ridge reservation in SD, they closed all the churches but a handful and some people have to drive as far as 60 miles to attend a mass.

[Jehane]

Wow! That is so scarey but I think we are heading that way too. Everyone wants to make money & there are rates, electricity, water on any property so if the congregation gets too small they just close them down - though I've never heard of the Catholics doing it.. I know of one country community who had their building shut down because there were barely a handful, all in their 70's & 80's &, without getting into a debate over the idea of hallowed ground, they wanted to celebrate Easter as a congregation in their holy place - the local church. The powers that be wouldn't make an exception so these poor souls each took a chair from home & sat under their building celebrating Easter as best they might. I hate that. The old are too vunerable & I thought that was plain cruel & definitely not Christlike.

[Danfrey]

The two kingdoms we speak of have nothing to do with financial prosperity, though you will find that those that are part of the kingdom of heaven are quicker to give up what they have to someone in need. There are just as many poor people in the world who are not part of the kingdom of heaven as there are rich.

As far as predestination, you will not find a welcome ear for it here. You will find that most Anabaptists hold to the view that everyone has an opportunity to know Christ.

[vespasia]

Very simplistic way of putting this but;

The kingdoms built by man are merely man made constructions, friable falliable and all will fall.
Nothing we put together for ourselves lasts or matters in the sight of God.
He cares about our hearts, who we are in His eyes.
The Kingdom of God is Eternal.

Everything else is transitory ash.

[vespasia]

Brothers in Christ.
You are being unintentionally harsh with one who genuinely does not comprehend. Could you simplfy your teaching so that it can be understood by all.

Jehane,
Would you like to open a thread in which the women can talk one to another?

[mesue]

Closed for staff review
signed,
You friendly neighborhood mod ;)

[mesue]

Thread reopened. :)
Please adhere to the rules.
Go here for a refresher :D
http://www.christianforums.com/faq.php?faq=rules

Colossians 4:6 Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

[MrJim]

:scratch:I read through but don't know what the mod thing is all about...

[mesue]

:scratch:I read through but don't know what the mod thing is all about...
Then, my job is done ;)

[MrJim]

Then, my job is done ;)

okee dokee:)

[ZiSunka]

Then, my job is done ;)

And you did a GREAT job! Thanks!! :clap:

[mesue]

And you did a GREAT job! Thanks!! :clap:
:blush: aww, schucks!
Thanks :D

[MrJim]

...um, ok moving on...


In looking at the two kingdoms it at first seems like we have to opposing forces. It can be looked at that way, since it can be weighed out as good vs. evil I suppose. But there is another way to look at it.

A quote from a book I'm reading: "...a community expresses God's nature is born..." and "...a community that expresses God's life and nature in the city." and "There is a community expressing Jesus Christ in Antioch." <<The Untold Story of the New Testament Church by Frank Viola>>

I guess one direction is the confrontation view--I think this is best expressed by the militant church/political right wing but also by the separatists.

The other direction is the hugging view--that the church can accept all inspite of their sin and beliefs. Regardless of views of sexuality or life or morals it's ok we accept you, sometimes to the point of condoning. Obviously a liberal viewpoint.

I accept neither view as being complete. The kingdom of God is something separate from the world, yet in "expressing God's nature" it cannot hardly be separatist but cannot by it's own nature be condoning sin either.

The path of this Christian journey will encompass aspects of both but will be different from both of those above "Left/Right" views. Just how this works out is where we tend to fall apart. And because the journey is often lonely we tend to side with one or the other simply for fellowship...

[ZiSunka]

I think there is another way...How about just being Jesus's hands, feet and voice in this time and place. There is middle ground between being a big stick or a soft pillow.

People aren't as interested in hearing arguments or sugary words as they are in seeing God's people live and act like God's people.

One of the things Christian converts to Islam say induced them to convert was that Islam is a lifestyle, a total way of life, while Christianity seems to be just going to church on sunday mornings. Maybe if we, God's people, acted and lived like God's peculiar people, they would see we have a distinctive lifestyle and a close relationship with God, too.

[MrJim]

There is middle ground between being a big stick or a soft pillow.

People aren't as interested in hearing arguments or sugary words as they are in seeing God's people live and act like God's people.



big stick vs soft pillow:thumbsup:

where best have you witnessed the middle ground? I think I know what it would look like, but as you said, it seems much of "Chistian" is going to church and doing "churchy" things...probably why I've not been a "member" for so many years...

[Jehane]

Out here it's called community outreach. eg our churh runs a 'breakfast club' at the primary school providing a simple breakfast of juice, toast & fruit for the kids who for one reason or another don't get breakfast at home. I do have some issues with what has become known as the 'social church'. I have seen it abused & I have seen chuches so fixated on fixing social problems they've forgotten who is their motivation for their actions.

[ZiSunka]

big stick vs soft pillow:thumbsup:

where best have you witnessed the middle ground? I think I know what it would look like, but as you said, it seems much of "Chistian" is going to church and doing "churchy" things...probably why I've not been a "member" for so many years...

It's hard to find the middle ground in American Christianity today, and maybe even in global Christianity. We've gotten intrenched in meaningless things and have given up important things like service to other people, leadership in morality and love, giving of ourselves for the benefit of the Mission. Those things don't belong to the left or the right, they belong to God.

I used to go to a lot of food pantries and I saw a lot of practicing the middle ground there. Witnessing by helping, asking people if they wanted prayer for their situation (they almost always were happy to have someone even ask), giving the kind of love we have been commanded to ask.

In another situation, I saw people witnessing to the rich by showing them the happiness of a life unfettered by possessions. Rich people hate the stuff they have, but they cling to it because it's the only thing they have to give meaning to their lives. I've seen people help them understand that owning things doesn't bring security or happiness. I've seen them lead the rich to the Lord by helping them donate the excess to people who need it more.

I've done it by offering to pray for people in line at the grocery store. They had things they couldn't deal with and they just needed someone to come along side them and go to the Lord on their behalf.

There is a lot of middle ground--right in front of you!

[Danfrey]

Out here it's called community outreach. eg our churh runs a 'breakfast club' at the primary school providing a simple breakfast of juice, toast & fruit for the kids who for one reason or another don't get breakfast at home. I do have some issues with what has become known as the 'social church'. I have seen it abused & I have seen chuches so fixated on fixing social problems they've forgotten who is their motivation for their actions.
We seem to have the opposite problem of churches trying to fix social problems in this country. The church isn't doing enough to address social problems. I am not talking about social problems as in voting for "rightous laws", I am speaking of feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and visiting the prisoner. There are those who participate in these types of activities, but they are the minority. It seems we have forgotten Matthew 25. When activities like this happen, they often have strings attached. I will do this x amount of times and if this person doesn't say the sinners prayer I am out of here. If Jesus treated us this way, I would have been out of second chances a long time ago.

My daughter and I have been discussing the idea of a soup kitchen in Delaware. We are moving to Dover because she lives there with her mother part of the time. Opening a soup kitchen there means a lot to us because Dover is the town where we were homeless. It was only for about a month, but it was enough to realize there isn't much available to people who don't have housing. The concept is this, we would rent a building suitable for feeding 50 or so with kitchen facilities. We would maintain the building. Then I would approach the local churches and ask them to commit to one day a month of manning the soup kitchen and providing the food. There are enough churches in the area to cover every day of the month. This would provide a place that someone could get a hot meal every day. Many will say that people will abuse this, but it really doesn't matter to me. I understand Jesus to be saying "feed the hungry" not "feed the hungry if they deserve it"

Anyway, I am off on a tangent here, hopefully I haven't hijacked the thread too much. Jehane, it is encouraging to hear about the breakfast club. It has boosted my motivation level on this idea.

[tulc]

My daughter and I have been discussing the idea of a soup kitchen in Delaware. We are moving to Dover because she lives there with her mother part of the time. Opening a soup kitchen there means a lot to us because Dover is the town where we were homeless. It was only for about a month, but it was enough to realize there isn't much available to people who don't have housing. The concept is this, we would rent a building suitable for feeding 50 or so with kitchen facilities. We would maintain the building. Then I would approach the local churches and ask them to commit to one day a month of manning the soup kitchen and providing the food. There are enough churches in the area to cover every day of the month. This would provide a place that someone could get a hot meal every day. Many will say that people will abuse this, but it really doesn't matter to me. I understand Jesus to be saying "feed the hungry" not "feed the hungry if they deserve it"

Anyway, I am off on a tangent here, hopefully I haven't hijacked the thread too much. Jehane, it is encouraging to hear about the breakfast club. It has boosted my motivation level on this idea.

..quite possibly one of the most Christian posts I've read on CF. :amen:
tulc(let us know if we can help?) :)

[Danfrey]

..quite possibly one of the most Christian posts I've read on CF. :amen:
tulc(let us know if we can help?) :)
Actually, you can all help by keeping us in prayer. As we look for housing, I would love to find a warehouse or something similar with an apartment above it. This would allow us to maximize our rent money for housing and ministry. I interviewed for a job last Thursday that would allow us to have the extra rent money needed for something like this.

[Jehane]

Actually, you can all help by keeping us in prayer. As we look for housing, I would love to find a warehouse or something similar with an apartment above it. This would allow us to maximize our rent money for housing and ministry. I interviewed for a job last Thursday that would allow us to have the extra rent money needed for something like this.

:prayer: I'm madly impressed. This sounds great.

[artrx]

People aren't as interested in hearing arguments or sugary words as they are in seeing God's people live and act like God's people.

Our church has ministries with local food banks, clothing and job placement facilities for those homeless or struggling, Habitat for Humanity, and the chuch building provides a place for local ESOL groups, tutoring and AA groups. However, it tends to be the same group of people all the time.
Our rector offered our chuch facilities as part of a county program last winter to house the homeless for the coldest months (the county facilities were overflowing.) Numerous chuches in the area took the overflow for 1 week each. It required a large number of volunteers and was a whole chuch effort. Afterwards, it was amazing how many people were touched by and educated on the plight of the homeless in our area. It opened many peoples eyes and hearts to the need for thier service. Some people just seem to live with blinders on when it comes to social/economic/cultural struggles, especially if they have had very cushy lives.

[ZiSunka]

I will definitely be praying for this potential ministry for you Danfrey!

[Danfrey]

Our church has ministries with local food banks, clothing and job placement facilities for those homeless or struggling, Habitat for Humanity, and the chuch building provides a place for local ESOL groups, tutoring and AA groups. However, it tends to be the same group of people all the time.
Our rector offered our chuch facilities as part of a county program last winter to house the homeless for the coldest months (the county facilities were overflowing.) Numerous chuches in the area took the overflow for 1 week each. It required a large number of volunteers and was a whole chuch effort. Afterwards, it was amazing how many people were touched by and educated on the plight of the homeless in our area. It opened many peoples eyes and hearts to the need for thier service. Some people just seem to live with blinders on when it comes to social/economic/cultural struggles, especially if they have had very cushy lives.
It is easy to have blinders. I walk with them over my eyes most of the time. I recently watched a movie on Mother Teresa and cryed through most of it. This was a woman after Jesus' heart. Sometimes I spend too much time think about theology and not enough time doing what Jesus taught.

[MadFingerPainter]

Churches as institutions don't seem interested in anything but adding numbers to the membership.

It's left up to individuals and parachurch organizations to do those things.
i agree with the first statement in this quote. they don't seem to be as interested in our spiritual well being as they are in filling the seats. it is getting increasingly difficult to find good services with good sermons to take home and think on until the next Sunday.

[ZiSunka]

i agree with the first statement in this quote. they don't seem to be as interested in our spiritual well being as they are in filling the seats. it is getting increasingly difficult to find good services with good sermons to take home and think on until the next Sunday.

I've started going to saturday services at a local church because there is more meat and potatoes to it than the sunday services. Sunday is all about numbers and taping for the radio program. They have even stopped the service and done some things over because they didn't get it taped properly or the sound was bad or the timing was off! In sunday worship! Once they even cut the preacher off in the middle of his sermon because the technician didn't like the sound levels, he thought the preacher was coming off too tinny!

But saturday is all about worship, Bible reading, a great sermon that stays with me, and strangely seems to be tying in with a mennonite devotional I am doing right now! Even though it's not a mennonite church!

They even showed a great 15 minute video about the harvest and how it related to Jesus's words in Samaria!

The pastor's preaching style is completely different on saturdays. He isn't being recorded, so he isn't as bombastic and he's not trying to be clever. He's just teaching and preaching.

I think I'm in love--with saturday service! ;)

[MadFingerPainter]

where i go to church we don't have saturday service. and right now there are only 12 members attending. the others have left. they've gone off to bigger and better churches i guess. it feels like the main concern now is filling seats. the services are almost kinda depressing now. but this is my home church and i feel bad about wanting to leave too. but i don't feel i'm getting fed anything useful anymore. but i stay because i love these people. they took me in and have been my church family. i'm just kinda waiting to see if they will close. there is only one other church i feel even remotely comfortable in here and it is not the denomination that i am. it's just very awkward. the decent churches are mostly out of town a good distance. with gas and an unreliable vehicle...some of us are subject to what's here or not going at all.

[ZiSunka]

If you all tithed, 12 families could support a church! :)

[MrJim]

If you all tithed, 12 families could support a church! :)

Think of it beyond tithing---12 families is a large group. The Kingdom of God is bigger than just having some building and a hired preacher. There are resources available, particularly through the home churches, that give alternative ways to "do" church that many don't think of. And often meeting places can be gotten for little $. I know of several churches that have other congregations use their facilities on Saturdays or Sunday evenings--the ABC I'm at lets a Spanish group use the building on Sunday evenings since there is no evening service.

[Jehane]

I guess you guys are as lucky as we are & can pick & choose amongst Christian radio or t.v. Due to circumstances beyond our church's control the preaching is occassionaly a little dodgy so we supplement all week by listening to our favourite preachers on the radio. This gives us the meat we crave & leaves us free to fellowship & worship with our church family. I'm afraid it's only going to get worse. We seem to have reached the 'itching ears' stage & too many prachers are just scratching the people's itch. I don't do well when I think I'm being patronised! I'd rather be told I'm wrong & what I should be doing about it (in a loving way or I go to pieces) than just patted on the head & told it's o.k; God understands. I'm sure he does but that doesn't teach me HOW to be holy as He asks!

[ZiSunka]

Think of it beyond tithing---12 families is a large group. The Kingdom of God is bigger than just having some building and a hired preacher. There are resources available, particularly through the home churches, that give alternative ways to "do" church that many don't think of. And often meeting places can be gotten for little $. I know of several churches that have other congregations use their facilities on Saturdays or Sunday evenings--the ABC I'm at lets a Spanish group use the building on Sunday evenings since there is no evening service.

Very true! When I said "church," I meant the spiritual body of believers that meets together for worship and edification, not a building or a paid pastor.

There are many places to meet besides a meeting house set aside for sunday services. In fact, one of my biggest pet peeves is that meeting houses aren't used constantly throughout the week. I get ticked that they are empty and dark on weekdays and weekends and evenings. It would be great if they could throw their doors open wide for a variety of things that could benefit the community and make the church an essential part of the landscape.

Why don't churches share a meeting house? Why do they all have to meet in separate buildings at the same time on the same day of the week? Why can't they contain branches of the library or hold AA meetings or be the place where the have town meetings? Why do we have to have multimillion dollar buildings that gather dust except at 10 AM on sundays??

Furthermore, I know churches that meet at tne YMCA, or at a meeting room in a hospital and I even know one church that meets at the local funeral home every sunday morning.

Building-shmuilding. You all can come and have church in my basement if you want! :D

[artrx]

It is easy to have blinders.... Sometimes I spend too much time think about theology and not enough time doing what Jesus taught.

Soooo true. I can relate. Sometimes it's out of fear of the unknown or anxiety, sometimes it's just laziness. Taking those first steps in faith can be difficult. That's why we need each other, with the grace of God.

[MadFingerPainter]

i'm not talking 12 families. i'm talking 12 people.

[MrJim]

i'm not talking 12 families. i'm talking 12 people.

Ahh, now that sounds like House Church size! Twelve people gathered together with Christ in the midst...now where have I heard that before;)

Seems like those 12 went out and did some mighty things...

[MadFingerPainter]

I'm not sure what 10 elderly people and two middle aged kids can do but...I suppose anything is possible. ~Giggles~

[tulc]

I'm not sure what 10 elderly people and two middle aged kids can do but...I suppose anything is possible. ~Giggles~

Well Abraham was just ONE elderly guy and look what he accomplished!





Any of your older couples looking to have kids? :sorry:
tulc( ;) )

[MadFingerPainter]

tulc hon I don't think you're understanding me...
Me and one other guy are in our 30s or 40s. The rest are old folks like 60 on up. I don't know who you think is gonna have the kids here. I certainly am not. :D

[MrJim]

tulc hon I don't think you're understanding me...
Me and one other guy are in our 30s or 40s. The rest are old folks like 60 on up. I don't know who you think is gonna have the kids here. I certainly am not. :D

^_^tulc understands--we just gets a little onery after his 6th cup of coffee^_^

[tulc]

What makes you say that menno? http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/sprachlos/speechless-smiley-037.gif
tulc( :D )

[MadFingerPainter]

i can certainly understand onery...i get the same way. ~hehe~

tulc: i realize this is totally off topic but what in the world does that saying "annoying white trash" mean under your username?

[tulc]

tulc: i realize this is totally off topic but what in the world does that saying "annoying white trash" mean under your username?

That's sort of what my mom used to call me when I did something to annoy her. :sorry: I realized as I got older:
A) I had a real talant for annoying others
B) I am whitetrash and unashamed!
so I put the two together and viola! "annoying whitetrash!"
tulc(or "détritus blanc ennuyant" as they say in France!)

[MadFingerPainter]

~chuckles~ okie dokie

[MrJim]

~chuckles~ okie dokie

^_^told ya!

I wondered about the "annoying white trash"...glad you asked:thumbsup:

[MadFingerPainter]

i had to. it's in my nature.

[Danfrey]

A quote from a book I'm reading: "...a community expresses God's nature is born..." and "...a community that expresses God's life and nature in the city." and "There is a community expressing Jesus Christ in Antioch." <<The Untold Story of the New Testament Church by Frank Viola>>



I read a book by Frank Viola back in the days when I was still in the military. I think it was "Rethinking the wineskin". It was that book that sparked my interest in house Churches.

[MrJim]

I read a book by Frank Viola back in the days when I was still in the military. I think it was "Rethinking the wineskin". It was that book that sparked my interest in house Churches.

I just ordered it from amazon yesterday. I'm rereading his "Pagan Christianity".