Should (the ELCA) be Lutheran?

[DaRev]

Under the advice of moderator Jim47, I am starting this thread in the main forum.

Well, unless we do change our theological stances or confessions then I would have to say that we are Lutheran...

Could you give me an example of where ELCA is more of a Philipist in their thinking? I know Melancthon was a synergist but I don't see that in ELCA's stances on anything... In regards to Ecumenism, I would have to say that ELCA is following the Book of Concord in that regard:

1] Also they teach that one holy Church is to continue forever. The Church is the congregation of saints, in which the Gospel is rightly taught and the Sacraments are rightly administered.

If the Gospel is rightly taught and the Sacraments rightly administered by, say, Methodists then why should we not recognize them as such by being in full communion?


My issue with the above statement is the notion that the ELCA's ecumenical efforts are in line with the Book of Concord. The BoC does not in any way support full fellowship with those who openly deny the true physical presence of Christ's body and blood in the Sacrament. Those who do (called Sacramentarians) are vehemently condemned in the BoC. This would include today's Presbyterians, UCC, RCA, Methodists, and a number of other Reformed and Arminian traditions.

The Formula of Concord even states that those who have changed the meaning of Christ's words (from "this IS ["is" meaning 'is"] My body" to "this symbolizes ["is" meaning "as a symbolic object"] My body") do not even have the Lord's Supper, but merely bread and wine as a memorial. Their changing of the meaning of Christ's words have changed the Verba to the point that it is no longer Christ's words that they recite, but merely the words of Man. The word of Man has no authority over the elements of the Sacrament.

To be in full communion with Sacramentarians is entirely contradictory to the BoC.

This is one subject that Luther was adamant about. His meeting with Zwingli made this abundantly evident.


DaRev

[Tetzel]

I didn't like the ecumenism of the ELCA when I was a member. The least bothersome agreement to me was the one with the ECUSA, which would have been OK if the ECUSA had been more theologically unified (Anglo-Catholics, who deny Sola Fide, should never be in communion with a Lutheran body IMO). So basically they are making a mistake there.

That being said, I'd much rather be in the ELCA than in any Church that is not Lutheran. The ELCA knows what law and gospel are, they know what the sacraments are, they know the relationship between God and humanity. They're OK in my book.

[stumpjumper]

To be in full communion with Sacramentarians is entirely contradictory to the BoC.

This is one subject that Luther was adamant about. His meeting with Zwingli made this abundantly evident.


Perhaps you should read what I wrote a little better... Methodists are not Sacramentarians in that they deny the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. Since, ELCA is not in communion with Zwinglians like Presbyterians your post is a strawman.

Methodists are simply not Zwinglians, fyi.

Here is the statement that was drawn up by the UMC before the agreement of full communion between ELCA and UMC:
http://www.gbod.org/worship/thisholymystery/default.html

PART TWO: CHRIST IS HERE — EXPERIENCING THE MYSTERY

The Presence of ChristPrinciple:
Jesus Christ, who "is the reflection of God's glory and the exact imprint of God's very being" (Hebrews 1:3), is truly present in Holy Communion. Through Jesus Christ and in the power of the Holy Spirit, God meets us at the Table. God, who has given the sacraments to the church, acts in and through Holy Communion. Christ is present through the community gathered in Jesus' name (Matthew 18:20), through the Word proclaimed and enacted, and through the elements of bread and wine shared (1 Corinthians 11:23-26). The divine presence is a living reality and can be experienced by participants; it is not a remembrance of the Last Supper and the Crucifixion only.
Are there theological differences between ELCA and UMC? Between Augsburg and the Articles of Religion? Yes.

But, that does not mean that Christians should not seek unity through ecumenical efforts... If that makes us un-Lutheran in the eyes of some then fine.

I'd rather be un-Lutheran and seek unity with other Christians then take a triumphalistic approach to matters such as these...

1 Corinthians 13:12-13

[SPALATIN]

Perhaps you should read what I wrote a little better... Methodists are not Sacramentarians in that they deny the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. Since, ELCA is not in communion with Zwinglians like Presbyterians your post is a strawman.

Methodists are simply not Zwinglians, fyi.

Here is the statement that was drawn up by the UMC before the agreement of full communion between ELCA and UMC:
http://www.gbod.org/worship/thisholymystery/default.html

Are there theological differences between ELCA and UMC? Between Augsburg and the Articles of Religion? Yes.

But, that does not mean that Christians should not seek unity through ecumenical efforts... If that makes us un-Lutheran in the eyes of some then fine.

I'd rather be un-Lutheran and seek unity with other Christians then take a triumphalistic approach to matters such as these...

1 Corinthians 13:12-13

The Methodists do believe in the Real Spiritual presence but they do not believe in the physical presence hence therefore should not be in communion with any Lutheran Church.

The point that was made my Luther is that if there is only one matter of disagreement between the two church bodies there should not be communion between the two. At Marburg, Zwingli and Luther were in agreement about everything but the Real Physical presence and Luther told him that they were then not in a communion/fellowship relationship. "Hoc est corpus meum"

A true ecumenical effort would be if the Lutherans were to teach the rest of you why we are right and enable you to see the difference and then say "I should be a Lutheran" Then we could have unity.

I am glad I am in Missouri as this alone would give me coniptions if I were in the ELCA.

[Protoevangel]

The point that was made my Luther is that if there is only one matter of disagreement between the two church bodies there should not be communion between the two. At Marburg, Zwingli and Luther were in agreement about everything but the Real Physical presence and Luther told him that they were then not in a communion/fellowship relationship. "Hoc est corpus meum"
Two of Luther's quotes from the Marburg Colloquy particularly stand out:

"Yours is a different spirit from ours."
...and...
"You do not belong to the communion of the Christian Church. We cannot acknowledge you as brethren."

Also, in an earlier literary debate, in 1527 and 1528, Luther accused Zwingli of teaching heresy and the devil's doctrine.

[stumpjumper]

Edited...

Forget it as this discussion will just go nowhere anyway...

[Jim47]

Mod post

I fully encourage this discussion, but lets keep it respectful of each other and remember to follow forums rules, especially about flaming and baiting.

I really don't enjoy handing out alerts and warnings so please be careful how you choose your words.

Thanks

[SPALATIN]

Edited...

Forget it as this discussion will just go nowhere anyway...

Why? Because what we say is harsh? we do not say it to be mean but to tell the world that they need to repent of their sin(s) and return to the true faith. You don't like it because it dares to even exclude you to a certain extent and you don't like to be disincluded. We would like that all Lutherans were on the same page but for us that would mean that the ELCA repents of it's sins and vows to go there no more. There are synods like the Wisconsin and the Old Norwegian Synod (ELS) which say the same thing to Missouri so you're not the only ones here. Unity is not compromise for the sake of unity it is a true confession all the way around.

Missouri has problems among them are the Daystar/Jesus First organizations who want a more liberal Missouri. That would mean that we would compromise our standard of believing in an inerrant scripture. We do not see scripture with the same understanding because low and behold the ELCA uses the Higher Critical methods which has it's roots in the Enlightenment. It seeks to see scripture as just another book among books.

I am sorry that we can not see eye to eye, but frankly if you insist on having it your way then there is no reason to have the conversation either because I can't agree with liberalism of any form.

[C.F.W. Walther]

This explains the "religiosity" behind the ELCA phenomenom. I couldn't explain it any better.

http://wordalone.org/nr/great-seduction.htm

"Now, it is no wonder that religion is not very popular today. We live in a time where the self and its experience trumps all other authority. In fact, authority is routinely conceived to limit freedom and constrain the self. The unfettered self is free; the limited self is bound, and we value freedom over everything.
It is part of our experience to interpret texts in various ways. Subscription to the “otherness” of confessional documents is replaced in our day by a celebration of multivalency in our interpretation of those documents. We unfettered selves are the ones that interpret documents, and our interpretation is, after all, our interpretation, our experience in the reading of the text.
Thus it is that confessional and scriptural texts are read in new ways. There is a celebration in the novelty of our readings because they are our readings. Passages that once seemed to proscribe certain actions are now interpreted as being in consonance with those actions, for example, the homosexual matter within the ELCA."


"But because of the hermeneutical problem, there is no longer authority in Scripture and the confessions. Therefore, in order to be Lutheran we must find some other authority outside Scripture, an authority that can determine normative understandings of Scripture and confessions."

"John Calvin was correct, the human mind is a factory of idols. We avert our eyes from the Creator to the creation, and hope somehow that the creation can function to determine our thinking on the Creator. It is a seductive thought for anyone sincerely wanting to save the Lutheran theological tradition. The problem is, like in any seduction, that move ultimately leads us away from that which is really important. While a seduction may be momentarily pleasant, it definitely takes us down the wrong road."

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This also could be the results of the "liberal" tendencies in the ELCA to allow altenate lifestyles in the clergy. THis was a comment after a 69 Million dollar lawsuit settlement against ministers with homosexual tendencies in the ELCA. Like closing the door after the horse escapes.
The ELCA says, "People who seek to become ordained ministers in the ELCA go through an extended process of study and evaluation, [spokesman John] Brooks said. To the church's knowledge, no other pastor who completed this process has ever been accused of the conduct for which Thomas was convicted in Texas. … 'Still, in a continuing effort to guard against such tragedies, the ELCA will review its guidelines and procedures for candidacy for the ordained ministry,' Brooks said.".............Really?!

[stumpjumper]

Why? Because what we say is harsh? we do not say it to be mean but to tell the world that they need to repent of their sin(s) and return to the true faith. You don't like it because it dares to even exclude you to a certain extent and you don't like to be disincluded.

I'm in a slightly better mood right now so I'll give the thread another chance... I'm not a big fan of being put on the spot so :sorry:

After spending the past two hours in the ER with my 5 year old, I should be in a worse mood but I'm having a cold beer so ;) Son's okay but has a big egg on his head from hitting the tile floor...

Anyway, in regards to the UMC, it is not clear to me that they deny the real presence. They certainly aren't Zwinglians and from what I've read they go beyond Calvin's spiritual presence.

They believe in a physical presence but leave it undefined as a Holy Mystery and that's a lot better than transubstantiation from what I can tell. If we are going to hold to our theological stances and confessions, then why not accept a true representation of Luther's views if and where they exist in non-Lutheran bodies?

It all depends on how one looks at what it is to be Lutheran... For me, it means to put my faith in God and what God has done for me... It means to look past the confessions, and the written Gospel to what Christ has done for us on the Cross... It means to see that Christ has done this for all Christians that look to Him in faith, hope, and love and if those Christians exist in a Methodist Church and the Eucharist that brings unity can be experienced there then I will consider them full unseperated brothers and sisters in Christ...

ELCA has made mistakes but I don't think this is one of them...

[Melethiel]

After spending the past two hours in the ER with my 5 year old, I should be in a worse mood but I'm having a cold beer so ;) Son's okay but has a big egg on his head from hitting the tile floor...

Pshaw, you don't go to the ER for a head bump...

[stumpjumper]

Pshaw, you don't go to the ER for a head bump...
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That's what I told my wife but he fell 4 feet off of the countertop onto the tile floor and the egg was about the size of a baseball (no lie)...

It looked pretty bad...

[Jim47]

That's what I told my wife but he fell 4 feet off of the countertop onto the tile floor and the egg was about the size of a baseball (no lie)...

It looked pretty bad...


Praise God he didn't have a concussion. :crossrc:

Please return to the OP discussion.

[SPALATIN]

I'm in a slightly better mood right now so I'll give the thread another chance... I'm not a big fan of being put on the spot so :sorry:

After spending the past two hours in the ER with my 5 year old, I should be in a worse mood but I'm having a cold beer so ;) Son's okay but has a big egg on his head from hitting the tile floor...

Anyway, in regards to the UMC, it is not clear to me that they deny the real presence. They certainly aren't Zwinglians and from what I've read they go beyond Calvin's spiritual presence.

They believe in a physical presence but leave it undefined as a Holy Mystery and that's a lot better than transubstantiation from what I can tell. If we are going to hold to our theological stances and confessions, then why not accept a true representation of Luther's views if and where they exist in non-Lutheran bodies?

It all depends on how one looks at what it is to be Lutheran... For me, it means to put my faith in God and what God has done for me... It means to look past the confessions, and the written Gospel to what Christ has done for us on the Cross... It means to see that Christ has done this for all Christians that look to Him in faith, hope, and love and if those Christians exist in a Methodist Church and the Eucharist that brings unity can be experienced there then I will consider them full unseperated brothers and sisters in Christ...

ELCA has made mistakes but I don't think this is one of them...

SJ,

I certainly hope that your son's bump on the head is better today. Please be mindful that I am not trying to start a fight with anyone in the ELCA here. When you described the contemplation that you do in your faith is no different than anyone really. The only difference I would see is that I stay in the paradigm of the scripture and confessions whereas it would seem that you like to think outside the box. Christ gives us his gifts through the means he has provided (Baptism and the Sacrament of the Altar) and those rest inside the paradigm not outside.

As I am learning Greek at the Fort Wayne Seminary, I have been impressed by what the scriptures really say in John 3. Jesus in speaking with Nicodemus tells him that one needs to be born from above and not as the American Evangelical spout (Born Again). There are so many half-baked english translations and most of them come from the reformed church (NIV being one of them). I prefer the ESV or the NASB and even the NKJV to the NIV.

The ELCA has an open communion agreement with too many of these reformed groups that Luther would not have given the time of day because of the differences.

The main one that we have mentioned though was the key difference that kept us apart until the Prussian union of the 19th century. I have a pamplet put out by Rose Publishing that gives the differences between the denominations. The Methodists do not recognize a "physical" presence according to this publication. Zwingli couldn't seem to put the physical together with the spiritual when it came to the Body and Blood but he is reformed and the Methodists are from John Wesley who came from the Anglican church.

Sometime after I have taken Church history at the sem we can have a more thorough discussion on these topics.

Since I have digressed enough I will stop here.

[stumpjumper]

I can respect that Spalatin :) I understand, at least, where you are coming from. Don't have time for a longer reply right now...

[LutherNut]

Anyway, in regards to the UMC, it is not clear to me that they deny the real presence. They certainly aren't Zwinglians and from what I've read they go beyond Calvin's spiritual presence.

I seem to remember a thread some time ago about this very issue. It quoted several documents from the United Methodist Church that clearly stated that they hold to a spiritual presence. I would believe their own documentation before anything or anyone else.

They believe in a physical presence but leave it undefined as a Holy Mystery and that's a lot better than transubstantiation from what I can tell. If we are going to hold to our theological stances and confessions, then why not accept a true representation of Luther's views if and where they exist in non-Lutheran bodies?

Doesn't exist in the UMC... or any other Methodist body.

It all depends on how one looks at what it is to be Lutheran... For me, it means to put my faith in God and what God has done for me... It means to look past the confessions, and the written Gospel to what Christ has done for us on the Cross...

Lutherans looking past the Gospel??? :eek:

Unbelievable!!! :doh:


ELCA has made mistakes but I don't think this is one of them...

Actually, it's part of the same mistake.

[RayJGentry]

well, i suppose. it's time for me to do some chiming in. i am actually a part of the part of the ELCA that i think is still Lutheran. i'm a member (or will be, as soon as i mail in my membership thingy) of the word alone network. i agree with them that the ELCA's desire to be "in full communion" with other denominations has gone too far. the desire to create unity on paper has surpassed the real test of Christian unity, which i think is just how well we can accomplish something that needs to be accomplished and share our relationship with each other, through Christ. the whole ideal they've created about by entereing full communion with the reformed church, methodist church and episcopal church has added little to nothing to our actual relationships in Christ, with each other. it gives us no necessary opportunity that we didn't already have.

the one thing it has done has dilluted the meaning of what it means to be ELCA and subsequently, being Lutheran. i think aside from the ELCA's own theological issues that can make us not lutheran, the full communion agreements we've entered in to with other denominations is far worse. it's been my problem with the ELCA since i was a senior in HS and the CCM with the episcopal church was going through the synods. what's the point of being lutheran, specifiacally ELCA, if we just want to do things that make us more like other denominations.

now, for clarity, i really have nothing against the denominations we're in full communion with or their members. i may disagree with their theology, but it's no different than the differences i have with WELS and LCMS. but if a person wants the things that we gain by being in full communion with these churches, it makes more sense to be a part of those denominations, rather than chisel away at what it means to be ELCA.

ok, that's what i've got for now. if anyone's wondering, i'm still working on the bonhoeffer CoD stuff, i just haven't gotten it up. i got much busier than i anticipated this week. God bless.

[DaRev]

Perhaps you should read what I wrote a little better... Methodists are not Sacramentarians in that they deny the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. Since, ELCA is not in communion with Zwinglians like Presbyterians your post is a strawman.

Has the ELCA broken its full altar/pulpit fellowship with the Presbyterian Church-USA? I was not aware of that.

Methodists are simply not Zwinglians, fyi.

They are Reformed.


But, that does not mean that Christians should not seek unity through ecumenical efforts... If that makes us un-Lutheran in the eyes of some then fine.

I'd rather be un-Lutheran and seek unity with other Christians then take a triumphalistic approach to matters such as these...


Altar/pulpit fellowship with Reformed churches IS un-Lutheran. This goes all the way back to Luther himself. It is also the very reason that many Lutherans from Germany (including the founders of the LCMS) emmigrated to the US, to avoid the Prussian Union.

The ELCA's present day ecumenical movement is a modern day "Prussian Union."

[stumpjumper]

Has the ELCA broken its full altar/pulpit fellowship with the Presbyterian Church-USA? I was not aware of that.

I did not mention PC-USA which is why I called your statement a strawman. It is taking what I wrote in the ELCA sub-forum out of context...

I can see that this is an issue but if you want to discuss this then you need to stick to one topic (ie full communion with the UMC) at a time and not lump everything together.

They are Reformed.

In about the same manner that Lutherans are Roman Catholic. UMC uses the quadrilateral approach to doctrine so looking at where they came from is not the same thing as looking at where they are now.

Did you take the time to read their current statement that I have provided?

If you choose not to read what they currently state, then why even discuss this issue?

Altar/pulpit fellowship with Reformed churches IS un-Lutheran. This goes all the way back to Luther himself. It is also the very reason that many Lutherans from Germany (including the founders of the LCMS) emmigrated to the US, to avoid the Prussian Union.

The ELCA's present day ecumenical movement is a modern day "Prussian Union."

If you believe that the Lutheran Confessions are truest exposition of scripture and Tradition, then why not try to find that truth in other denominations? Especially ones which are willing to review their historical stances...

Also, since most of the conservative members here do not even consider other Lutherans Lutheran, why do you post on a discussion forum that has the goal of "uniting all Christians as one body"?