Jesus is God???

[deornie]

I know the are probably several threads on that topic, discussing if Jesus is God or Son of God.

I am starting this thread to hear opinions of ppl from different denominations. Any links will be appreciated.

Recently after reserching I have concluded that I do not believe that Jesus was God but rather a son of God. So now i am trying to figure out what branches of Christianity have the same opinion.

Can anyone please tell me where in the Bible Jesus says "I am God"?

Hope someone will be interested in that topic. Thank you:hug: :hug: :hug:

[G-Skillet]

Well, during the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus claimed equality with God by building on the commandments of the Old Testament and even going beyond that. Who besides God has the authority to do this?

[christinepro]

I believe that Elohim is Yahweh, Yeshua and Ruach Hakodesh.

[christinepro]

Elohim is plural and El is single.

[deornie]

Well, during the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus claimed equality with God by building on the commandments of the Old Testament and even going beyond that. Who besides God has the authority to do this?

he could have done it as his father commanded him to say?

[stivvy]

I know the are probably several threads on that topic, discussing if Jesus is God or Son of God.

I am starting this thread to hear opinions of ppl from different denominations. Any links will be appreciated.

Recently after reserching I have concluded that I do not believe that Jesus was God but rather a son of God. So now i am trying to figure out what branches of Christianity have the same opinion.

Can anyone please tell me where in the Bible Jesus says "I am God"?...
Exodus 3:14 - God says "I AM who I AM" - John 8:58 - Jesus says "Before Abraham was, I AM" in reference to Himself.

Deut. 4:2; 12:32 - the Lord God commands that we not add or take away from His word - Rev. 22:18-19 - Jesus so commands us not to add or take away from His word.
Deut. 32:39; 1 Sam. 2:6 - the Lord kills and makes alive again and raises up - John 5:21 - the Son raises and gives life.
Deut. 32:39 - neither is there any that can deliver out of God's hand - John 10:28 - nor shall any pluck out of Jesus' hand.
Deut. 32:43 - rejoice, ye heavens, with Him, and let all the angels of God worship Him - Heb. 1:6 - the "Him" is Jesus the Son.
2 Sam. 22:3 - God is the horn of salvation - Luke 1:68-69 - Jesus is the horn of salvation.
Psalm 19:7 - the law of the Lord is perfect - Gal. 6:2 - fulfill the law of Christ.
Psalm 24:10 - the Lord is the King of glory - 1 Cor. 2:8 - Jesus is the Lord of glory.
Psalm 45:7 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. God calls someone else God. This someone else is His eternally begotten Son - Heb. 1:9 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. cf. Heb. 1:8, 10.
Psalm 62:12 - the Lord God renders to each according to his work - Matt. 16:27; Rev. 22:12 - Jesus so renders to each according to his work.
Psalm 71:5 - the Lord God is our hope - 1 Tim. 1:1 - the Lord Jesus Christ who is our hope.
Psalm 89:27 – I will make him the first-born, the highest (“elyon” which refers to God) of the kings of the earth - John 18:36-27 – Jesus is this first-born king.
Psalm 97:9 - the Lord God is above all - John 3:31 - Jesus is above all.
Psalms 110:1 - the Lord (Yahweh) said to my Lord - Jesus = Yhwh - Acts 2:34-36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ.
Psalm 148:1-2 - the angels worship the Lord God - Heb. 1:6 - the angels worship Jesus. Only God is worshiped.
Prov. 3:12 - who the Lord loves He corrects - Rev. 3:19 - who Jesus loves He corrects.
Isaiah 7:14 - a virgin will bear a Son named Emmanuel which means "God is with us" - Matt. 1:23 - this Son is Jesus Christ, God in the flesh.
Isaiah 9:6 - the child to be born shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 25:8 - God swallows up death in victory - 2 Tim. 1:10 - Jesus abolishes death and brings life and immortality.
Isaiah 40:8 - the Word of God shall stand forever - Matt. 24:35 - the Words of Jesus shall not pass away.
Isaiah 42:8 - God gives His glory to no other - John 17:5; Heb. 1:3 - yet Jesus has the same glory as the Father.
Isaiah 43:14 - the Lord God is redeemer - Titus 2:14 - Jesus is the redeemer.
Isaiah 44:6 - the Lord God is the first and the last - Rev. 1:17; 2:8; 22:13 - Jesus is the first and the last.
Isaiah 45:19 - I, the Lord God, did not speak in secret - John 18:20 - Jesus said "I have said nothing secretly."
Isaiah 45:23 - to God, every knee shall bow and every tongue swear. Phil. 2:10-11 - at Jesus' name every knee should bow and tongue confess.
Isaiah 48:17 - God is the Holy One - Acts 3:14 - Jesus is the Holy One.
Isaiah 60:19 - God is everlasting light - Revelation 21:23 - Jesus the Lamb is eternal light.
Jer. 17:10 - the Lord searches the hearts and repays us according to our deeds - Rev. 2:23 - Jesus searches the hearts and repays us according to our deeds.
Ezek. 1:26-28; Daniel 7:9 - God's glorious appearance - Rev. 1:13-16 - Jesus' glorious appearance.
Ezek. 34:11-31 - God the Father is the shepherd of the flock - John 10:7-29 - Jesus is the shepherd of the flock.
Ezek. 34:16 - God seeks to save that which was lost - Luke 19:10 - Jesus seeks to save that which was lost.
Ezek. 34:17 - God judges between cattle, rams and goats - Matt. 25:32 - Jesus judges and separates the goats from the sheep.
Ezek. 43:2 - God's voice was like a noise of many waters - Rev. 1:15 - Jesus' voice was like the sound of many waters. Dan. 2:47 - the Lord is the God of gods and the Lord of Lords - Rev. 17:14 - Jesus the Lamb is the Lord of Lords.
John 1:1 - John writes, "the Word was God." This is clear evidence of Jesus Christ's divinity. (Note: in the Jehovah's bible, the passage was changed to "Word was a god." This is not only an embarrassing attempt to deny the obvious divinity of Christ, but it also violates the first commandment and Isaiah 43:10 because it acknowledges that there is more than one God).

John 1:2-3 - He (the Word) was in the beginning with God and all things were made through Him (the Word who was God).
John 1:14 - the Word (who is God) became flesh (Jesus) and dwelled among us, full of grace and truth.
John 1:18 - the Greek word for "only-begotten" is "monogenes" which means unique, only member of a kind. It does not mean created.
John 1:51 - the angels of God - Matt. 13:41 - Son of Man's angels; 2 Thess. 1:7 - Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His angels.
John 3:5 - Jesus says without baptism one cannot enter into the Kingdom of God - Col. 1:13 - Paul says this is Jesus' Kingdom.
John 6:68-69 - Peter confesses that Jesus is the Son of God who has the words of eternal life.
Acts 2:36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ - Acts 4:24 - Sovereign Lord who made heaven and earth. This means Jesus is God.
Acts 3:15 - Peter said the men of Israel "killed the Author of Life." This can only be God - Acts 14:15 - who made all things.
Acts 20:28 - to care for the Church of God which He obtained with His own blood. This means God shed His blood. When? When He died on the cross. This means Jesus is God.
Rom. 1:1 - Paul is an apostle of the Gospel of God - Rom. 15:19 - Paul preached the Gospel of Christ.
Rom. 7:22 - Paul says he delights in the law of God - Gal. 6:2 - Paul says fulfill the law of Christ.
Rom. 8:9 - Paul refers to both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ.
Rom. 9:5 - Jesus Christ is God over all, blessed forever.
Rom. 11:36 - God for from Him through Him and to Him are all things - Heb. 2:10 - Jesus for whom and by whom are all things.
1 Cor. 15:9 - Paul says he persecuted the Church of God - Matt. 16:18; Rom. 16:16 - it is the Church of Jesus Christ.
1 Cor. 15:28 - God may be all in all - Colossians 3:11 - Christ is all and in all.
Gal. 1:5 - God the Father to whom be the glory forever - 2 Peter 3:18 - to Jesus Christ be the glory both now and forever.
Phil. 2:6-7 - Jesus was in the form of God, but instead of asserting His equality with God, emptied Himself for us.
Col. 1:15 - Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the "firstborn" of all creation. The Greek word for "first-born" is "prototokos" which means eternal preexistence (it never means created).
Col. 1:26 - God's saints - 1 Thess. 3:13 - at the coming of Jesus Christ with all His saints.
Col. 2:9 - in Jesus Christ the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. He is the whole and entire fullness of the indivisible God in the flesh.
Titus 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of God - Rom. 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of Jesus Christ.
Titus 1:3-4 - God our Savior = Christ our Savior = Jesus Christ is God.
Titus 2:11 - the grace of God that has appeared to save all men - Acts 15:11 - through the grace of Jesus we have salvation.
Titus 2:13 - we await our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Titus 3:4 - 3:6 - great God and Savior Jesus Christ = God our Savior = Jesus Christ our Savior = Jesus is God.
Heb. 1:6 - when God brings His first-born into the world, let all the angels of God worship Him. Only God is worshiped.
Heb. 1:8 - God calls the Son "God." But of the Son He says, "Thy Throne Oh God is forever and ever."
Heb. 1:9 - God calls the Son "God." "Therefore, God, Thy God has anointed Thee."
Heb. 1:10 - God calls the Son "Lord." "And thou, Lord, didst found the earth in the beginning and the heavens are your work."
Heb. 13:12 - Paul says Jesus sanctifies the people with His blood - 1 Thess. 5:23 - the God of peace sanctifies the people.
2 Peter 1:1 - to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.
1 John 5:20 - "that we may know Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."
Jude 4 - Jude calls Jesus Christ our only Master and Lord. Our only Master and Lord is God Himself.
Rev. 2:8 - the angel of the church in Smyrna wrote, "The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life." See Isa. 44:6. Rev. 22:6 - the Lord God sends angels - Rev. 22:16 - Jesus sends angels.

I think you can find one of these to be enough to let your faith take over.

[deornie]

But there is none where Jesus would say I am GOD?

[stivvy]

But there is none where Jesus would say I am GOD?

:doh: The very first line He states it!:doh:

[MikeMcK]

But there is none where Jesus would say I am GOD?

I don't think I understand.

If we know that "I AM" refers to God and Jesus identifies Himself as "I AM", then how much clearer does He have to be? Do you really think that the Jews didn't know what He was saying? That's why they wanted Him killed, because they believed that He blasphemed God by claiming to be God.

[deornie]

NO if it was really so he would have said it out loud directly "I am God" and many times to deciples and ppl and not in such indirect way.but Bible never mentions it derectly in the New Testament , I AM can refer to I AM the son of GOD.

And the jews could think that claim of being son of God is eqally blasphemous. ;)

[MikeMcK]

NO if it was really so he would have said it out loud directly "I am God" and many times to deciples and ppl and not in such indirect way.

How is identifying Himself as God being indirect?

Let me ask you this: why do you believe that the Jews believed that He was claiming to be God?

Why do you believe that Jesus accepted worship, when He knew that worship is reserved exclusively for God?

What do you believe that Jesus meant when He declared: "Before Abraham was, I am"? What did He mean when He said, "Your father, Abraham, rejoiced to see My day"? How could Abraham have rejoiced to see Jesus' day if Jesus did not exist yet?

but Bible never mentions it derectly in the New Testament , I AM can refer to I AM the son of GOD.

No. I AM is God's name. Jesus called Himself the son of God often enough that we know that He would have had no problem calling Himself the son of God.

If I say that I am Mike, then it's understood that I claiming to be Mike. "I am Mike" doesn't mean, "I am Mike's son."

Likewise, if I say "I am Mike", then it's understood that I have claimed to be Mike. There is no need for me to say I am Mike, I am me, I am Jim's son, I am the manager of the Georgetown Marina, I am the guitar player for the Faded Lovers, in order for me to show that I am claiming to be Mike. It is understood that I am claiming to be Mike, simply by virtue of the fact that I have identified myself as Mike.

The question now is not whether or not I'm claiming to be Mike, it is whether or not my claim is true.

And the jews could think that claim of being son of God is eqally blasphemous. ;)

But that isn't what they said.

[laptoppop]

Remember, in those days there were lots of "gods" that folks worshipped. By claiming the one unique Name of the Hebrew God, Jesus clearly did not just say He was God, but He was clearly saying that He was the particular God of Abraham, Moses, Isaac, etc. -- He was claiming that He was the One True God, not just one more god.

[redMountian]

:amen:

[ramesses]

Jesus IS God.

To think otherwise is Heresy.






On such questions as these, it is usually good to look at the universal standard statement of Faith (ie, the Nicene Creed).

I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages.

Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten not created, of one essence with the Father through Whom all things were made.

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.

He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried.

And He rose on the third day, according to the Scriptures.

He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

And He will come again with glory to judge the living and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.

In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the age to come. Amen.

*********************************





Basically, Jesus is a member of the Holy Trinity, to be worshipped and Glorified with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
I find it increadibly misleading that a term such as "Father" should have been given to one part of the trinity, it makes people humanise God to the point that certain people even start imagining Jesus as the literal Son of God and Holy Spirit being some sort of Wonderworker who gives tongues.



One God.
Unum Deum.



Jesus is God Incarnate. In that sense, he is the "son of God" as he has taken on flesh and bones and became human, nevertheless, Jesus is still 100% divine as he is God.

Jesus is NOT a prophet.
Jesus is NOT a demi-God (ie, part God, part man).
Jesus is NOT an inspired Man.


Jesus IS God.
Jesus IS the Messiah.
Jesus IS God Incarnate.

[ramesses]

Remember, in those days there were lots of "gods" that folks worshipped. By claiming the one unique Name of the Hebrew God, Jesus clearly did not just say He was God, but He was clearly saying that He was the particular God of Abraham, Moses, Isaac, etc. -- He was claiming that He was the One True God, not just one more god.


Amen!:amen:


Either Jesus was God, or he was the greatest blasphemer of all time.

[GustheMule]

Exodus 3:14 - God says "I AM who I AM" - John 8:58 - Jesus says "Before Abraham was, I AM" in reference to Himself.

Deut. 4:2; 12:32 - the Lord God commands that we not add or take away from His word - Rev. 22:18-19 - Jesus so commands us not to add or take away from His word.
Deut. 32:39; 1 Sam. 2:6 - the Lord kills and makes alive again and raises up - John 5:21 - the Son raises and gives life.
Deut. 32:39 - neither is there any that can deliver out of God's hand - John 10:28 - nor shall any pluck out of Jesus' hand.
Deut. 32:43 - rejoice, ye heavens, with Him, and let all the angels of God worship Him - Heb. 1:6 - the "Him" is Jesus the Son.
2 Sam. 22:3 - God is the horn of salvation - Luke 1:68-69 - Jesus is the horn of salvation.
Psalm 19:7 - the law of the Lord is perfect - Gal. 6:2 - fulfill the law of Christ.
Psalm 24:10 - the Lord is the King of glory - 1 Cor. 2:8 - Jesus is the Lord of glory.
Psalm 45:7 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. God calls someone else God. This someone else is His eternally begotten Son - Heb. 1:9 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. cf. Heb. 1:8, 10.
Psalm 62:12 - the Lord God renders to each according to his work - Matt. 16:27; Rev. 22:12 - Jesus so renders to each according to his work.
Psalm 71:5 - the Lord God is our hope - 1 Tim. 1:1 - the Lord Jesus Christ who is our hope.
Psalm 89:27 – I will make him the first-born, the highest (“elyon” which refers to God) of the kings of the earth - John 18:36-27 – Jesus is this first-born king.
Psalm 97:9 - the Lord God is above all - John 3:31 - Jesus is above all.
Psalms 110:1 - the Lord (Yahweh) said to my Lord - Jesus = Yhwh - Acts 2:34-36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ.
Psalm 148:1-2 - the angels worship the Lord God - Heb. 1:6 - the angels worship Jesus. Only God is worshiped.
Prov. 3:12 - who the Lord loves He corrects - Rev. 3:19 - who Jesus loves He corrects.
Isaiah 7:14 - a virgin will bear a Son named Emmanuel which means "God is with us" - Matt. 1:23 - this Son is Jesus Christ, God in the flesh.
Isaiah 9:6 - the child to be born shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 25:8 - God swallows up death in victory - 2 Tim. 1:10 - Jesus abolishes death and brings life and immortality.
Isaiah 40:8 - the Word of God shall stand forever - Matt. 24:35 - the Words of Jesus shall not pass away.
Isaiah 42:8 - God gives His glory to no other - John 17:5; Heb. 1:3 - yet Jesus has the same glory as the Father.
Isaiah 43:14 - the Lord God is redeemer - Titus 2:14 - Jesus is the redeemer.
Isaiah 44:6 - the Lord God is the first and the last - Rev. 1:17; 2:8; 22:13 - Jesus is the first and the last.
Isaiah 45:19 - I, the Lord God, did not speak in secret - John 18:20 - Jesus said "I have said nothing secretly."
Isaiah 45:23 - to God, every knee shall bow and every tongue swear. Phil. 2:10-11 - at Jesus' name every knee should bow and tongue confess.
Isaiah 48:17 - God is the Holy One - Acts 3:14 - Jesus is the Holy One.
Isaiah 60:19 - God is everlasting light - Revelation 21:23 - Jesus the Lamb is eternal light.
Jer. 17:10 - the Lord searches the hearts and repays us according to our deeds - Rev. 2:23 - Jesus searches the hearts and repays us according to our deeds.
Ezek. 1:26-28; Daniel 7:9 - God's glorious appearance - Rev. 1:13-16 - Jesus' glorious appearance.
Ezek. 34:11-31 - God the Father is the shepherd of the flock - John 10:7-29 - Jesus is the shepherd of the flock.
Ezek. 34:16 - God seeks to save that which was lost - Luke 19:10 - Jesus seeks to save that which was lost.
Ezek. 34:17 - God judges between cattle, rams and goats - Matt. 25:32 - Jesus judges and separates the goats from the sheep.
Ezek. 43:2 - God's voice was like a noise of many waters - Rev. 1:15 - Jesus' voice was like the sound of many waters. Dan. 2:47 - the Lord is the God of gods and the Lord of Lords - Rev. 17:14 - Jesus the Lamb is the Lord of Lords.
John 1:1 - John writes, "the Word was God." This is clear evidence of Jesus Christ's divinity. (Note: in the Jehovah's bible, the passage was changed to "Word was a god." This is not only an embarrassing attempt to deny the obvious divinity of Christ, but it also violates the first commandment and Isaiah 43:10 because it acknowledges that there is more than one God).

John 1:2-3 - He (the Word) was in the beginning with God and all things were made through Him (the Word who was God).
John 1:14 - the Word (who is God) became flesh (Jesus) and dwelled among us, full of grace and truth.
John 1:18 - the Greek word for "only-begotten" is "monogenes" which means unique, only member of a kind. It does not mean created.
John 1:51 - the angels of God - Matt. 13:41 - Son of Man's angels; 2 Thess. 1:7 - Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His angels.
John 3:5 - Jesus says without baptism one cannot enter into the Kingdom of God - Col. 1:13 - Paul says this is Jesus' Kingdom.
John 6:68-69 - Peter confesses that Jesus is the Son of God who has the words of eternal life.
Acts 2:36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ - Acts 4:24 - Sovereign Lord who made heaven and earth. This means Jesus is God.
Acts 3:15 - Peter said the men of Israel "killed the Author of Life." This can only be God - Acts 14:15 - who made all things.
Acts 20:28 - to care for the Church of God which He obtained with His own blood. This means God shed His blood. When? When He died on the cross. This means Jesus is God.
Rom. 1:1 - Paul is an apostle of the Gospel of God - Rom. 15:19 - Paul preached the Gospel of Christ.
Rom. 7:22 - Paul says he delights in the law of God - Gal. 6:2 - Paul says fulfill the law of Christ.
Rom. 8:9 - Paul refers to both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ.
Rom. 9:5 - Jesus Christ is God over all, blessed forever.
Rom. 11:36 - God for from Him through Him and to Him are all things - Heb. 2:10 - Jesus for whom and by whom are all things.
1 Cor. 15:9 - Paul says he persecuted the Church of God - Matt. 16:18; Rom. 16:16 - it is the Church of Jesus Christ.
1 Cor. 15:28 - God may be all in all - Colossians 3:11 - Christ is all and in all.
Gal. 1:5 - God the Father to whom be the glory forever - 2 Peter 3:18 - to Jesus Christ be the glory both now and forever.
Phil. 2:6-7 - Jesus was in the form of God, but instead of asserting His equality with God, emptied Himself for us.
Col. 1:15 - Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the "firstborn" of all creation. The Greek word for "first-born" is "prototokos" which means eternal preexistence (it never means created).
Col. 1:26 - God's saints - 1 Thess. 3:13 - at the coming of Jesus Christ with all His saints.
Col. 2:9 - in Jesus Christ the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. He is the whole and entire fullness of the indivisible God in the flesh.
Titus 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of God - Rom. 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of Jesus Christ.
Titus 1:3-4 - God our Savior = Christ our Savior = Jesus Christ is God.
Titus 2:11 - the grace of God that has appeared to save all men - Acts 15:11 - through the grace of Jesus we have salvation.
Titus 2:13 - we await our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Titus 3:4 - 3:6 - great God and Savior Jesus Christ = God our Savior = Jesus Christ our Savior = Jesus is God.
Heb. 1:6 - when God brings His first-born into the world, let all the angels of God worship Him. Only God is worshiped.
Heb. 1:8 - God calls the Son "God." But of the Son He says, "Thy Throne Oh God is forever and ever."
Heb. 1:9 - God calls the Son "God." "Therefore, God, Thy God has anointed Thee."
Heb. 1:10 - God calls the Son "Lord." "And thou, Lord, didst found the earth in the beginning and the heavens are your work."
Heb. 13:12 - Paul says Jesus sanctifies the people with His blood - 1 Thess. 5:23 - the God of peace sanctifies the people.
2 Peter 1:1 - to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.
1 John 5:20 - "that we may know Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."
Jude 4 - Jude calls Jesus Christ our only Master and Lord. Our only Master and Lord is God Himself.
Rev. 2:8 - the angel of the church in Smyrna wrote, "The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life." See Isa. 44:6. Rev. 22:6 - the Lord God sends angels - Rev. 22:16 - Jesus sends angels.

I think you can find one of these to be enough to let your faith take over.
Honestly, I don't see how you can look at these verses and calim that the New Testament doesn't clearly claim the deity of Christ. I guess you want it off of Jesus lips. Well, read john. It's everywhere. There are Seven "I AM" statements. After Jesus makes some of these, the Pharisees get really mad. The Jewish name for God is YHWH, Yahweh, which means I AM. When Jesus said I AM the ressurrection and the life it was clear to everyone. Furhtermore, at another time he says, I and my father are one. The message of the NT is that Jesus is God Incarnate. If you want to reject this message, fine. But you might as well throw out the whole NT as this post makes clear. All of the apostles taught the deity of Christ. They also taught worship of Christ. In a monotheistic system you can only worship one God. If Jesus isn't God then worshiping him is blasphemy.

And how can you trust Christ to save you if he isn't God. How can we look upon God and do anything but tremble if Christ has not revealed his smiling face. trusting the person of Christ for salvation means relying upon the fact that He has sovereign power, which no one can trump.

[CrazyforYeshua]

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translatedus into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood,even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whethertheybe thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in allthings he might have the preeminence.

According to Colossians, Yeshua is God, because it says He created the world. God wrote scripture, so I think we need to just read it and accept what He says.

[deornie]

I guess you want it off of Jesus lips.

Exactly!:thumbsup:


How many times he calls God Father and himself son of god? All the time! And several times in the book of John he refers to himself as 'I AM', what is more clear? Why he did not say I AM GOD, pray to ME,etc? He teaches ppl to pray to FATHER in his name! NOT to JESUS but to FATHER!

AND he prays himself!! Just do not tell me he prays TO HIMSELF!;)

[GustheMule]

Exactly!:thumbsup:


How many times he calls God Father and himself son of god? All the time! And several times in the book of John he refers to himself as 'I AM', what is more clear? Why he did not say I AM GOD, pray to ME,etc? He teaches ppl to pray to FATHER in his name! NOT to JESUS but to FATHER!

AND he prays himself!! Just do not tell me he prays TO HIMSELF!;)
Jesus of course was a human, and as a human was relient upon God the father. He lived a sinless life and performed miracles in the sam eways christains are to do so. He was baptized and tempted and hungered and wept. He was a human and humans pray to God the Father.

Here is something Jesus said though while cryptic should help you:

30 "I and the Father are one."

31 The Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from the Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken),
36 say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do them, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.

[deornie]

30 "I and the Father are one."
He could mean that in spirit! my father my mother my brother and I are one in spirit, the people of my country are one! that you can explain many ways... but hey read on:


33 The Jews answered him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

THE JEWS said that! what did JESUS say???


34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken),
36 say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

that ye may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.

My father is in me and I am in my father: leave alone genetic code, we are in each other spiritually, my father teaching me and bringing me up is in me and i am in my father for he learnt from me too!;)

Simply read WHAT Jesus said!

He said I AM SON OF GOD not I AM GOD and to think otherwise is a blasphemy!:amen: ;)

[stivvy]

...He said I AM SON OF GOD not I AM GOD and to think otherwise is a blasphemy!:amen: ;)

:doh: Whatever! Almost comical.

[GustheMule]

He could mean that in spirit! my father my mother my brother and I are one in spirit, the people of my country are one! that you can explain many ways... but hey read on:


THE JEWS said that! what did JESUS say???





My father is in me and I am in my father: leave alone genetic code, we are in each other spiritually, my father teaching me and bringing me up is in me and i am in my father for he learnt from me too!;)

Simply read WHAT Jesus said!

He said I AM SON OF GOD not I AM GOD and to think otherwise is a blasphemy!:amen: ;)
Look, while on earth Christ was not omnipotent. He was subject to human limitations (Philippians 2). However, he does say "I and my Father are one." so actually, i think you have the right idea here. They are one in spirit. (God is Spirit by the way) Jesus will was the will of the father. The father's will was the will of Jesus they were always in perfect harmony. Now if I said this, it would be crazy. Indeed, if anyone--from Moses, to Elijah, to Paul, said it, it would be crazy. For a man to claim oneness of mind and purpose and Spirit was quite the claim. How could you be at one with God and not in some way be divine? Here's an example from the same book, Jesus said "Destroy this temple and I will raise it up in three days." (He was speaking of His body.) In Judahism God's presence was in the temple. He inhabited the temple. Jesus was saying now its in me. I am full of the presence of God, here is where you are to worhip now. When Jesus was claiming to be the new temple he was effectively saying, "Worship at my feet." To a monotheistic culture that could contemplate nothing but worshiping at the feet of God, the claim was obvious. God is revealed in me --"the word became flesh and dwelt among us." You do, however, have to try and understand, Jesus' setting for all of his words to make sense. For him to say I AM God, for instance, would have been redundant. The claim of John is that if we look at Jesus, we wil see the true identity, the true character of the great I AM.

[deornie]

:doh: Whatever! Almost comical.

It is isnt it?:D
Jesus IS God.

To think otherwise is Heresy.

just paying back with what i got....;)

[deornie]

Look, while on earth Christ was not omnipotent. He was subject to human limitations (Philippians 2). However, he does say "I and my Father are one." so actually, i think you have the right idea here. They are one in spirit. (God is Spirit by the way) Jesus will was the will of the father. The father's will was the will of Jesus they were always in perfect harmony. Now if I said this, it would be crazy. Indeed, if anyone--from Moses, to Elijah, to Paul, said it, it would be crazy. For a man to claim oneness of mind and purpose and Spirit was quite the claim. How could you be at one with God and not in some way be divine? Here's an example from the same book, Jesus said "Destroy this temple and I will raise it up in three days." (He was speaking of His body.) In Judahism God's presence was in the temple. He inhabited the temple. Jesus was saying now its in me. I am full of the presence of God, here is where you are to worhip now. When Jesus was claiming to be the new temple he was effectively saying, "Worship at my feet." To a monotheistic culture that could contemplate nothing but worshiping at the feet of God, the claim was obvious. God is revealed in me --"the word became flesh and dwelt among us." You do, however, have to try and understand, Jesus' setting for all of his words to make sense. For him to say I AM God, for instance, would have been redundant. The claim of John is that if we look at Jesus, we wil see the true identity, the true character of the great I AM.

The truth is much more simple... there where books written to support both opinions...and YET there is no agreement between christians on that question... WHY? because one can take verses and explain their 'hidden' meaning...but Bible was written by men not by God... with their opinions, translations, etc. But only the words of Jesus stay the same... and no, not once he said I am God! Simple!

[wmc1982]

Jesus IS God

[GustheMule]

The truth is much more simple... there where books written to support both opinions...and YET there is no agreement between christians on that question... WHY? because one can take verses and explain their 'hidden' meaning...but Bible was written by men not by God... with their opinions, translations, etc. But only the words of Jesus stay the same... and no, not once he said I am God! Simple!

There's noting simple about it. Although I might characterize your unwillingness to study John or Revelation or even the synoptics in depth that way. How do you expalin Jesus' conflict with the temple? My view here is not some kind of novelty. it is the standard expalnation --indeed John's explanation for Jesus' conflict with the temple. And here in John we see it on Jesus' lips "Destroy this temple and I will rebuild it in thee days." Also, you will be very hardpressed to find any mainstream or evangelical church anywhere that doesn't recognize the glory of God in the face of Christ. You will ahve to go to places like the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses for that.

[deornie]

There's noting simple about it. Although I might characterize your unwillingness to study John or Revelation or even the synoptics in depth that way. How do you expalin Jesus' conflict with the temple? My view here is not some kind of novelty. it is the standard expalnation --indeed John's explanation for Jesus' conflict with the temple. And here in John we see it on Jesus' lips "Destroy this temple and I will rebuild it in thee days." Also, you will be very hardpressed to find any mainstream or evangelical church anywhere that doesn't recognize the glory of God in the face of Christ. You will ahve to go to places like the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses for that.

I HAVE studied John... But before we go into details explain to me please why OTHER deciples apart from John do not mention that? What LUKE MARK and MATTHEW never heard Jesus say that? Or Maybe Jesus never said that to THEM? Or maybe John misunderstood smth? Or maybe we misunderstood John?

The new Testament is the story about Jesus from the mouths of his eyewitnesses his deciples and friends... so why only JOHN mentions the same thing 7 times and the others not a single time?

;)

[deornie]

*bump*

[GustheMule]

*bump*
You're right. The deity of Christ is only hinted at in the synoptics. I honestly believe that they felt he was God because of the majestic way these monotheists spoke of him, but if all we had were the synoptics I'd say you're right. (BTW, John is probbaly the only gospel written by one of the 12.) What I would argue is that the NT books are all early (first century) and fairly harmonious accounts of Jesus Christ. And I could make a good arguement that they share the same theological perspective--an off the charts high Christology. I can't really understand your viewpoint. Either the book is true its not. And it states oftentimes that Jesus is God. The same people who saw him, worshipped him.

I think that this is an important doctrine an essential for any kind of decent Christian theology. I'm not saying He won't save you as long as you believe he is God's instrument of salvation and in the power of his atonement and his infinite superiority to ourselves. But I do think you are missing out on so much beauty by rejecting this doctrine. Here's what N.T. Wright said. I hope you find time to read it.

And the wonder of Christmas morning is that today we are summoned to look at the baby in the manger and recognise whose stamp, whose imprint, he bears. On Christmas morning we find ourselves gazing at God inside out. This baby is what you get when the stamp of divine nature leaves its exact imprint in the soft metal of a human being. Jesus is the coin that tells you whose country you are living in. Jesus is the seal that tells us whose authority the document carries. Jesus is the alphabet, Alpha and Omega, beginning and ending, Chi and Rho, the Christ, Sigma for Soter, Saviour, Tau for the cross – the letters that speak of his identity, his vocation, his victory. When the living God wants to become human, this is how he spells his name, spells it in the character, the exact imprint, of his own nature, writes it in flesh and blood, soft, vulnerable human tissue, stamps it into the innermost being of the foetus in Mary’s womb, the light of the world who blinked and cried as his eyes opened to this world’s light, the source of life who eagerly drank his own mother’s milk. This is God inside out; O come, let us adore him.
This truth is so dazzling, so nourishing, that we ourselves blink at its brightness even as we come to feed on its richness. There are three ways in which it comes home to us today with particular force.

First, as the chapter (Hebrews 1) itself emphasizes, this helpless, vulnerable, God-inside-out baby is superior even to the angels. The writer may be is responding to some in the early church who supposed that Jesus was some kind of angel, a messenger from God rather than God himself in human form. From that point of view, his human, flesh-and-blood character would be a kind of necessary accident, or even a necessary evil, rather than being part of the glory and the essence of who he was. Humans were made in God’s image against the day when God himself would come into his world in the most appropriate way, the most complete, fulfilling way, expressing his own very nature, impressing his own very nature in and as a human being. And until we grasp this – and this is of course the point of it all – we haven’t begun to grasp who God really is. The newspapers have run yet another survey on whether people believe in God, and for good measure life after death, the devil, and a few other bits and pieces, the flotsam and jetsam of the religious imagination of a bygone age. But the answers tell us little or nothing of much use, because most people, when they hear the question about God, imagine a being totally unlike the one whose exact stamp, whose precise impression, is there for us to see in the flesh and blood, the character in every sense, of Jesus of Nazareth, the baby in the manger, the young prophet dying on the cross. When people think of God they often think of him more like an exalted, detached spiritual being, a great angel, in fact, without much to do with our world of space, time and matter. I’m glad they don’t believe in that God; because nor do I. I believe in the God whose exact imprint is on display gurgling in the manger, arguing in the Temple, bleeding on the cross. I believe in the God made known in Jesus, who is so much greater than angels precisely because it is human beings who are made in God’s image, and this human being alone who bears the exact imprint of his nature. Until we come face to face with God as a baby, God as utterly vulnerable, God establishing his kingdom by living as an asylum-seeker with a price on his head, God growing up with sneers about his parentage, God announcing his kingdom and people saying he was mad, God confronting the authorities and dying a cruel death – until we come to terms with this God, until we realise that this God is far greater than all the super-spiritual beings in the cosmos, we haven’t even got on the map with Christian faith. This is God inside out: O come, let us adore him.

[major_minor]

This is one of the MOST argued subjects I know of. Seems silly we argue something God made so plain. Yet, because of our humanity, and our finite thinking, its like we have to "justify" it in our minds to make it right.

Keeping perspective, Jesus said<"If you have seen me, you have seen the Father." But even more impoortant, in Matt7 he stated:
21"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. "
We will answer to Jesus...1=3 or 3=1, they are still one in the same.

So its sorta like the Trinity debate...it has no bering on heaven and hell. It does however do the work of the enemy by dividing believers. Do we really want the enemy to succeed in dividing the Body"?

[GustheMule]

*bump*
John looking at Jesus: 17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades. (Revelation 1:17-18)

[Captivated]

As so often I find something pertinent in the writings of C S Lewis:

"One of the creeds says that Christ is the Son of God 'begotten, not created': and it adds 'begotten by his Father before all worlds'....'Before all worlds' Christ is begotten, not created....We don't use the words begetting or begotten much in modern English, but everyone still knows what they mean. To beget is to become the father of; to create is to make. And the difference is this. When you beget, you beget something of the same kind as yourself. A man begets human babies, a beaver begets little beavers and a bird begets eggs which turn into little birds. But when you make, you make something of a different kind from yourself. A bird makes a nest, a beaver builds a dam, a man makes a wireless set - or he may make something more like himself than a wireless set; say, a statue. If he is a clever enough carver he may make a statue which is very like a man indeed. But, of course, it is not a real man; it only looks like one. It cannot breathe or think. It is not alive.

Now that is the first thing to get clear. What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man. What God creates is not God just as what man makes is not man..."

C S Lewis, "Mere Christianity"

[deornie]

Thank you guys for your opinions!

[MikeMcK]

bump

[christian73]

Exactly!:thumbsup:


How many times he calls God Father and himself son of god? All the time! And several times in the book of John he refers to himself as 'I AM', what is more clear? Why he did not say I AM GOD, pray to ME,etc? He teaches ppl to pray to FATHER in his name! NOT to JESUS but to FATHER!

AND he prays himself!! Just do not tell me he prays TO HIMSELF!;)

Jesus also said, "Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father."

[Simon_Templar]

I know the are probably several threads on that topic, discussing if Jesus is God or Son of God.

I am starting this thread to hear opinions of ppl from different denominations. Any links will be appreciated.

Recently after reserching I have concluded that I do not believe that Jesus was God but rather a son of God. So now i am trying to figure out what branches of Christianity have the same opinion.

Can anyone please tell me where in the Bible Jesus says "I am God"?

Hope someone will be interested in that topic. Thank you:hug: :hug: :hug:
The short answer to the question of which branches of christianity believe Jesus was not God but was the son of God is... None.

If you do not believe Jesus was God, you are not a christian.

Don't take that as 'name calling' or an attack because I don't mean it that way, Its simply a statement of fact... like saying "if you don't believe Muhammed was a prophet, you are not a muslim".

Where does Jesus say "I am God" he actually says it in a couple of places. However, you have already started the argument in such a way as to make answering you impossible. The reason being you have framed the argument in terms of the english language and modern culture, and not in terms of the language of Jesus and his culture.

In hebrew the name of God is YHWH, usually written in English as Yahweh. Yahweh is a form of the Hebrew verb "To Be" which means literally "He who is", thus when God used it of himself he said "I AM".
This, of course, was well known to the Jews, and this name of God was so sacred that it was not even pronounced by the Jews.. rather they referred to God as "HaShem" which means simply "the name". The sacredness of this name was protected even by the translators of the bible in the christian world who rendered Yahweh as "LORD" so that God's name would not be taken in vain by people reading the scripture etc.

So.. There are four instances which come to mind on which Jesus declared himself to be God. #1 when he came to the disciples, walking on the water in the midst of the storm, they call out to him to identify himself and he proclaims to them "I AM" Identifying himself as Yahweh.
Also, when the pharisees asked Jesus who he was he tells them in John 8:24
"I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”"

In this instance, (as in the walking on the water, and you will see in the final isntance as well) the translators added "he" after the words "I AM" however the "he" is not there in the original language. What Jesus actually says is "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins".
Here he tells the pharisees that unless they believe that he is Yahweh, they will die in their sins.


The next instance is just a little further down in the same chapter of John.. specificly in verse 58. Jesus claimed that Abraham was glad to see Jesus' day and the pharisees asked "how has abraham seen you?" (since he's been dead for centuries) and Jesus replies ...

"Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” "

Here again he claimed to be Yahweh.

Finally, on the day of his crucifixion, when the temple guards came to arrest Jesus in the garden, he asked them "who are you looking for" and they said "Jesus of Nazareth". Jesus replied "I am he"... except here again the "HE" is added by english translators. What he actually says in the original language is " I AM"

You will note that the sheer power of this divine name knocks all the soldiers to the ground... twice. Here at his arrest, Jesus again claimed to be Yahweh, and the power of his claim literally floored those to whom he was talking.

So, pretty much off the top of my head, I can name to you four instances in which Jesus unequivocally claimed to be Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of Moses.
Thats not even counting the other facts such as "Son of Man" is a divine title which comes from a vision the prophet Daniel, in which Daniel sees "the Son of Man (ie Jesus) in heaven seated on the throne of God, being glorified by the Father.
Or the time the Apostle Thomas called Jesus "My God" and Jesus said "you have beleived because you have seen, blessed are those who believe without seeing" which clearly is approving of what Thomas believed (which was that Jesus was God).

I could come up with more if I were to actually think about in depth, and start doing research... but the point is that Jesus clearly claimed to be God, his disciples acknoledged him as God and for this, he commended their faith. There simply is no lack of evidence.

More importantly for you, the issue is that Jesus himself said, Unless you believe that he is the self existent God, yahweh, you will die in your sins. There is no other issue as important or central for you. If you don't believe that Jesus is who he has claimed to be, it does not matter if you live well, if you follow his teachings etc etc... He is the bread of life, and if you do not believe in him, you will die in your sins.

[SecretOfFatima]

The Uniqueness of Mary as the Mother of God

Gen. 3:15 - we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says "I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed." This refers to Jesus (the "emnity") and Mary (the "woman"). The phrase "her seed" (spermatos) is not seen elsewhere in Scripture.

Gen 3:15 / Rev. 12:1 - the Scriptures begin and end with the woman battling satan. This points to the power of the woman with the seed and teaches us that Jesus and Mary are the new Adam and the new Eve.

John 2:4, 19:26 - Jesus calls Mary "woman" as she is called in Gen. 3:15. Just as Eve was the mother of the old creation, Mary is the mother of the new creation. This woman's seed will crush the serpent's skull.

Isaiah 7:14; Matt. 1:23 - a virgin (the Greek word used is "parthenos") will bear a Son named Emmanuel, which means "God is with us." John 1:14 - God in flesh dwelt among us. Mary is the Virgin Mother of God.

Matt. 2:11 - Luke emphasizes Jesus is with Mary His Mother, and the magi fall down before both of them, worshiping Jesus.

Luke 1:35 - the child will be called holy, the Son of God. Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God (the "Theotokos").

Luke 1:28 - "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you." These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel (who is a messenger of God). Thus, when Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the words of God.

Luke 1:28 - also, the phrase "full of grace" is translated from the Greek word "kecharitomene." This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just "highly favored." She has been perfected in grace by God. "Full of grace" is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

Luke 1:38 - Mary's fiat is "let it be done to me according to thy word." Mary is the perfect model of faith in God, and is worthy of our veneration.

Luke 1:42 - "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus." The phrase "blessed are you among women" really means "you are most blessed of all women." A circumlocution is used because there is no superlative in the Greek language. Note also that Elizabeth praises Mary first, and then Jesus. This is hyperdulia (but not latria which is worship owed to God alone). We too can go through Mary to praise Jesus. Finally, Catholics repeat these divinely inspired words of Elizabeth in the Rosary.

Luke 1:43 - Elizabeth's use of "Mother of my Lord" (in Hebrew, Elizabeth used "Adonai" which means Lord God) is the equivalent of "Holy Mary, Mother of God" which Catholics pray in the Rosary. The formula is simple: Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus' Mother, so Mary is the mother of God (Mary is not just the Mother of Jesus' human nature - mothers are mothers of persons, not natures).

Luke 1:44 - Mary's voice causes John the Baptist to leap for joy in Elizabeth's womb. Luke is teaching us that Mary is our powerful intercessor.

Luke 1:46 - Mary claims that her soul magnifies the Lord. This is a bold statement from a young Jewish girl from Nazareth. Her statement is a strong testimony to her uniqueness. Mary, as our Mother and intercessor, also magnifies our prayers.

Luke 1:48 - Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the "Hail Mary" prayer. What Protestant churches have existed in all generations (none), and how many of them call Mary blessed with special prayers and devotions?

Gal. 4:4 - God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. Mary is the woman with the redeemer. By calling Mary co-redemptrix, we are simply calling Mary "the woman with the redeemer." This is because "co" is from the Latin word "cum" which means "with." Therefore, "co-redemptrix" means "woman with the redeemer." Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.

Eph. 1:1; Phil. 1:1; Col. 1:2 - the word "saints" (in Hebrew "qaddiysh") means "holy" ones. So Mary is called Holy, the greatest Saint of all.

Luke 2:35 - Simeon prophesies that a sword would also pierce Mary's soul. Mary thus plays a very important role in our redemption. While Jesus' suffering was all that we needed for redemption, God desired Mary to participate on a subordinate level in her Son's suffering, just as he allows us to participate through our own sufferings.

Luke 2:19,51 - Mary kept in mind all these things as she pondered them in her heart. Catholics remember this by devoting themselves to Mary's Immaculate Heart and all the treasures and wisdom and knowledge contained therein.



Mary - the Immaculate Ark of the New Covenant

Exodus 25:11-21 - the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God's Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh.

2 Sam. 6:7 - the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb.

1 Chron. 13:9-10 - this is another account of Uzzah and the Ark. For God to dwell within Mary the Ark, Mary had to be conceived without sin. For Protestants to argue otherwise would be to say that God would let the finger of Satan touch His Son made flesh. This is incomprehensible.

1 Chron. 15 and 16 - these verses show the awesome reverence the Jews had for the Ark - veneration, vestments, songs, harps, lyres, cymbals, trumpets.

Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 - Luke's conspicuous comparison's between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant. In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant.

Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.

Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.

Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.

Rev 11:19 - at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries (see 2 Macc. 2:7), and now it is finally seen in heaven. The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this. However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the "woman" clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written.

Rev 12:1 - the "woman" that John is describing is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Just as the moon reflects the light of the sun, so Mary, with the moon under her feet, reflects the glory of the Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ.

Rev. 12:17 - this verse tells us that Mary's offspring are those who keep God's commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. This demonstrates, as Catholics have always believed, that Mary is the Mother of all Christians.

Rev. 12:2 - Some Protestants argue that, because the woman had birth pangs, she was a woman with sin. However, Revelation is apocalyptic literature unique to the 1st century. It contains varied symbolism and multiple meanings of the woman (Mary, the Church and Israel). The birth pangs describe both the birth of the Church and Mary's offspring being formed in Christ. Mary had no birth pangs in delivering her only Son Jesus.

Isaiah 66:7 - for example, we see Isaiah prophesying that before she (Mary) was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son (Jesus). This is a Marian prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

Gal 4:19 - Paul also describes his pain as birth pangs in forming the disciples in Christ. Birth pangs describe formation in Christ.

Rom. 8:22 - also, Paul says the whole creation has been groaning in travail before the coming of Christ. We are all undergoing birth pangs because we are being reborn into Jesus Christ.

Jer. 13:21 - Jeremiah describes the birth pangs of Israel, like a woman in travail. Birth pangs are usually used metaphorically in the Scriptures.

Hos. 13:12-13 - Ephraim is also described as travailing in childbirth for his sins. Again, birth pangs are used metaphorically.

Micah 4:9-10 - Micah also describes Jerusalem as being seized by birth pangs like a woman in travail.

Rev. 12:13-16 - in these verses, we see that the devil still seeks to destroy the woman even after the Savior is born. This proves Mary is a danger to satan, even after the birth of Christ. This is because God has given her the power to intercede for us, and we should invoke her assistance in our spiritual lives.



Mary is our Mother and Queen of the New Davidic Kingdom

John 19:26 - Jesus makes Mary the Mother of us all as He dies on the Cross by saying "behold your mother." Jesus did not say "John, behold your mother" because he gave Mary to all of us, his beloved disciples. All the words that Jesus spoke on Cross had a divine purpose. Jesus was not just telling John to take care of his mother.

Rev. 12:17 - this verse proves the meaning of John 19:26. The "woman's" (Mary's) offspring are those who follow Jesus. She is our Mother and we are her offspring in Jesus Christ. The master plan of God's covenant love for us is family. But we cannot be a complete family with the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Christ without the Motherhood of Mary.

John 2:3 - this is a very signifcant verse in Scripture. As our mother, Mary tells all of us to do whatever Jesus tells us. Further, Mary's intercession at the marriage feast in Cana triggers Jesus' ministry and a foreshadowing of the Eucharistic celebration of the Lamb. This celebration unites all believers into one famiy through the marriage of divinity and humanity.

John 2:7 - Jesus allows His mother to intercede for the people on His behalf, and responds to His mother's request by ordering the servants to fill the jars with water.

Psalm 45:9 - the psalmist teaches that the Queen stands at the right hand of God. The role of the Queen is important in God's kingdom. Mary the Queen of heaven is at the right hand of the Son of God.

1 Kings 2:17, 20 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the King does not refuse his mother. Jesus is the new Davidic King, and He does not refuse the requests of his mother Mary, the Queen.

1 Kings 2:18 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the Queen intercedes on behalf of the King's followers. She is the Queen Mother (or "Gebirah"). Mary is our eternal Gebirah.

1 Kings 2:19 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom the King bows down to his mother and she sits at his right hand. We, as children of the New Covenant, should imitate our King and pay the same homage to Mary our Mother. By honoring Mary, we honor our King, Jesus Christ.

1 Kings 15:13 - the Queen Mother is a powerful position in Israel's royal monarchy. Here the Queen is removed from office. But now, the Davidic kingdom is perfected by Jesus, and our Mother Mary is forever at His right hand.

2 Chron. 22:10 - here Queen Mother Athalia destroys the royal family of Judah after she sees her son, King Ahaziah, dead. The Queen mother plays a significant role in the kingdom.

Neh. 2:6 - the Queen Mother sits beside the King. She is the primary intercessor before the King.



Mary is Ever Virgin

Exodus 13:2,12 - Jesus is sometimes referred to as the "first-born" son of Mary. But "first-born" is a common Jewish expression meaning the first child to open the womb. It has nothing to do the mother having future children.

Exodus 34:20 - under the Mosaic law, the "first-born" son had to be sanctified. "First-born" status does not require a "second" born.

Ezek. 44:2 - Ezekiel prophesies that no man shall pass through the gate by which the Lord entered the world. This is a prophecy of Mary's perpetual virginity. Mary remained a virgin before, during and after the birth of Jesus.

Mark 6:3 - Jesus was always referred to as "the" son of Mary, not "a" son of Mary. Also "brothers" could have theoretically been Joseph's children from a former marriage that was dissolved by death. However, it is most likely, perhaps most certainly, that Joseph was a virgin, just as were Jesus and Mary. As such, they embodied the true Holy Family, fully consecrated to God.

Luke 1:31,34 - the angel tells Mary that you "will" conceive (using the future tense). Mary responds by saying, "How shall this be?" Mary's response demonstrates that she had taken a vow of lifelong virginity by having no intention to have relations with a man. If Mary did not take such a vow of lifelong virginity, her question would make no sense at all (for we can assume she knew how a child is conceived). She was a consecrated Temple virgin as was an acceptable custom of the times.

Luke 2:41-51 - in searching for Jesus and finding Him in the temple, there is never any mention of other siblings.

John 7:3-4; Mark 3:21 - we see that younger "brothers" were advising Jesus. But this would have been extremely disrespectful for devout Jews if these were Jesus' biological brothers.

John 19:26-27 - it would have been unthinkable for Jesus to commit the care of his mother to a friend if he had brothers.

John 19:25 - the following verses prove that James and Joseph are Jesus' cousins and not his brothers: Mary the wife of Clopas is the sister of the Virgin Mary.

Matt. 27:61, 28:1 - Matthew even refers to Mary the wife of Clopas as "the other Mary."

Matt. 27:56; Mark 15:47 - Mary the wife of Clopas is the mother of James and Joseph.

Mark 6:3 - James and Joseph are called the "brothers" of Jesus. So James and Joseph are Jesus' cousins.

Matt. 10:3 - James is also called the son of "Alpheus." This does not disprove that James is the son of Clopas. The name Alpheus may be Aramaic for Clopas, or James took a Greek name like Saul (Paul), or Mary remarried a man named Alpheus.



:amen:


See next post for more

[SecretOfFatima]

Jesus' "Brothers" (adelphoi)) = Cousins or Kinsmen

Luke 1:36 - Elizabeth is Mary's kinswoman. Some Bibles translate kinswoman as "cousin," but this is an improper translation because in Hebrew and Aramaic, there is no word for "cousin."

Luke 22:32 - Jesus tells Peter to strengthen his "brethren." In this case, we clearly see Jesus using "brethren" to refer to the other apostles, not his biological brothers.

Acts 1:12-15 - the gathering of Jesus' "brothers" amounts to about 120. That is a lot of "brothers." Brother means kinsmen in Hebrew.

Acts 7:26; 11:1; 13:15,38; 15:3,23,32; 28:17,21 - these are some of many other examples where "brethren" does not mean blood relations.

Rom. 9:3 - Paul uses "brethren" and "kinsmen" interchangeably. "Brothers" of Jesus does not prove Mary had other children.

Gen. 11:26-28 - Lot is Abraham's nephew ("anepsios") / Gen. 13:8; 14:14,16 - Lot is still called Abraham's brother (adelphos") . This proves that, although a Greek word for cousin is "anepsios," Scripture also uses "adelphos" to describe a cousin.

Gen. 29:15 - Laban calls Jacob is "brother" even though Jacob is his nephew. Again, this proves that brother means kinsmen or cousin.

Deut. 23:7; 1 Chron. 15:5-18; Jer. 34:9; Neh. 5:7 -"brethren" means kinsmen. Hebrew and Aramaic have no word for "cousin."

2 Sam. 1:26; 1 Kings 9:13, 20:32 - here we see that "brethren" can even be one who is unrelated (no bloodline), such as a friend.

2 Kings 10:13-14 - King Ahaziah's 42 "brethren" were really his kinsmen.

1 Chron. 23:21-22 - Eleazar's daughters married their "brethren" who were really their cousins.

Neh. 4:14; 5:1,5,8,10,14 - these are more examples of "brothers" meaning "cousins" or "kinsmen."

Tobit 5:11 - Tobit asks Azarias to identify himself and his people, but still calls him "brother."

Amos 1: 9 - brotherhood can also mean an ally (where there is no bloodline).


Mary's Assumption into Heaven

Gen. 5:24, Heb. 11:5 - Enoch was bodily assumed into heaven without dying. Would God do any less for Mary the Ark of the New Covenant?

2 Kings 2:11-12; 1 Mac 2:58 - Elijah was assumed into heaven in fiery chariot. Jesus would not do any less for His Blessed Mother.

Psalm 132:8 - Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the Ark (Mary) of thy might. Both Jesus and Mary were taken up to their eternal resting place in heaven.

2 Cor. 12:2 - Paul speaks of a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven. Mary was also brought up into heaven by God.

Matt. 27:52-53 - when Jesus died and rose, the bodies of the saints were raised. Nothing in Scripture precludes Mary's assumption into heaven.

1 Thess. 4:17 - we shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Rev. 12:1 - we see Mary, the "woman," clothed with the sun. While in Rev. 6:9 we only see the souls of the martyrs in heaven, in Rev. 12:1 we see Mary, both body and soul.

2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul instructs us to hold fast to oral (not just written) tradition. Apostolic tradition says Mary was assumed into heaven. While claiming the bones of the saints was a common practice during these times (and would have been especially important to obtain Mary's bones as she was the Mother of God), Mary's bones were never claimed. This is because they were not available. Mary was taken up body and soul into heaven.



Mary's Coronation in Heaven

2 Tim 4:8 - Paul says that there is laid up for him the crown of righteousness. The saints are crowned in heaven, and Mary is the greatest saint of all.

James 1:12 - those who endure will receive the crown of life which God has promised. Mary has received the crown of life by bringing eternal life to the world.

1 Peter 5:4 - when the chief Shepherd is manifested we will receive the unfading crown of glory.

Rev. 2:10 - Jesus will give the faithful unto death the crown of life. Jesus gave Mary His Mother the crown of life.

Rev. 12:1 - Mary, the "woman," is crowned with twelve stars. She is Queen of heaven and earth and the Mother of the Church.

Wis. 5:16 - we will receive a glorious crown and a beautiful diadem from the hand of the Lord. Mary is with Jesus forever crowned in His glory.



Misunderstanding about Matthew 1:25 (Joseph knew her "not until")

Matt. 1:25 - this verse says Joseph knew her "not until ("heos", in Greek)" she bore a son. Some Protestants argue that this proves Joseph had relations with Mary after she bore a son. This is an erroneous reading of the text because "not until" does not mean "did not...until after." "Heos" references the past, never the future. Instead, "not until" she bore a son means "not up to the point that" she bore a son. This confirms that Mary was a virgin when she bore Jesus. Here are other texts that prove "not until" means "not up to the point that":

Matt. 28:29 - I am with you "until the end of the world." This does not mean Jesus is not with us after the end of the world.

Luke 1:80 - John was in the desert "up to the point of his manifestation to Israel." Not John "was in the desert until after" his manifestation.

Luke 2:37 - Anna was a widow "up to the point that" she was eighty-four years old. She was not a widow after eighty-four years old.

Luke 20:43 - Jesus says, "take your seat at my hand until I have made your enemies your footstool." Jesus is not going to require the apostles to sit at His left hand after their enemies are their footstool.

1 Tim. 4:13 - "up to the point that I come," attend to teaching and preaching. It does not mean do nothing "until after" I come.

Gen. 8:7 - the raven flew back and forth "up to the point that" [until] the waters dried from the earth. The raven did not start flying after the waters dried.

Gen. 28:15 - the Lord won't leave Jacob "up to the point that" he does His promise. This does not mean the Lord will leave Jacob afterward.

Deut. 34:6 - but "up to the point of today" no one knows Moses' burial place. This does not mean that "they did not know place until today."

2 Sam. 6:23 - Saul's daughter Micah was childless "up to the point" [until] her death. She was not with child after her death.

1 Macc. 5:54 - not one was slain "up to the point that" they returned in peace. They were not slain after they returned in peace.



Misunderstanding about Romans 3:23 ("All have sinned")

Rom. 3:23 - Some Protestants use this verse "all have sinned" in an attempt to prove that Mary was also with sin. But "all have sinned " only means that all are subject to original sin. Mary was spared from original sin by God, not herself. The popular analogy is God let us fall in the mud puddle, and cleaned us up afterward through baptism. In Mary's case, God did not let her enter the mud puddle.

Rom. 3:23 - "all have sinned" also refers only to those able to commit sin. This is not everyone. For example, infants, the retarded, and the senile cannot sin.

Rom. 3:23 - finally, "all have sinned," but Jesus must be an exception to this rule. This means that Mary can be an exception as well. Note that the Greek word for all is "pantes."

1 Cor. 15:22 - in Adam all ("pantes") have died, and in Christ all ("pantes") shall live. This proves that "all" does not mean "every single one." This is because not all have died (such as Enoch and Elijah who were taken up to heaven), and not all will go to heaven (because Jesus said so).

Rom. 5:12 - Paul says that death spread to all ("pantes") men. Again, this proves that "all" does not mean "every single one" because death did not spread to all men (as we have seen with Enoch and Elijah).

Rom. 5:19 - here Paul says "many (not all) were made sinners." Paul uses "polloi," not "pantes." Is Paul contradicting what he said in Rom. 3:23? Of course not. Paul means that all are subject to original sin, but not all reject God.

Rom. 3:10-11 - Protestants also use this verse to prove that all human beings are sinful and thus Mary must be sinful. But see Psalm 14 which is the basis of the verse.

Psalm 14 - this psalm does not teach that all humans are sinful. It only teaches that, among the wicked, all are sinful. The righteous continue to seek God.

Psalm 53:1-3 - "there is none that does good" expressly refers to those who have fallen away. Those who remain faithful do good, and Jesus calls such faithful people "good."

Luke 18:19 - Jesus says, "No one is good but God alone." But then in Matt. 12:35, Jesus also says "The good man out of his good treasure..." So Jesus says no one is good but God, and then calls another person good.

Rom. 9:11 - God distinguished between Jacob and Esau in the womb, before they sinned. Mary was also distinguished from the rest of humanity in the womb by being spared by God from original sin.

Luke 1:47 - Mary calls God her Savior. Some Protestants use this to denigrate Mary. Why? Of course God is Mary's Savior! She was freed from original sin in the womb (unlike us who are freed from sin outside of the womb), but needed a Savior as much as the rest of humanity.

Luke 1:48 - Mary calls herself lowly. But any creature is lowly compared to God. For example, in Matt. 11:29, even Jesus says He is lowly in heart. Lowliness is a sign of humility, which is the greatest virtue of holiness, because it allows us to empty ourselves and receive the grace of God to change our sinful lives.


Misunderstandings about Jesus "rebuking" Mary

Matt. 12:48; Mark 3:33; Luke 8:21 - when Jesus asks, "Who are my mother, and sisters and brothers?," some Protestants argue that Jesus is rebuking Mary in order to denigrate her. To the contrary, when Jesus' comments are read in light of Luke 8:5-15 and the parable of the sower which Jesus taught right before His question, Jesus is actually implying that Mary has already received the word as the sower of good ground and is bearing fruit. Jesus is teaching that others must, like Mary, also receive the word and obey it.

Matt. 12:48; Mark 3:33; Luke 8:21 - Jesus' question about "who are my mother, and sisters and brothers" was also made in reference to Psalm 69:8-9. Jesus the Prophet was answering the psalmist's prophecy that those closest to Him would betray Him at His passion. Jesus is emphasizing the spiritual family's importance over the biological family, and the importance of being faithful to Him. While many were unfaithful to Jesus, Mary remained faithful to Him, even to the point of standing at the foot of the Cross.

Matt. 12:48; Mark 3:33; Luke 8:21 - finally, to argue that Jesus rebuked Mary is to argue that Jesus violated the Torah, here, the 4th commandment. This argument is blasphemous because it essentially says that God committed sin by dishonoring His Mother.

Luke 11:28 - when Jesus says, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it," some Protestants also call this a rebuke of Mary. Again, to the contrary, Jesus is exalting Mary by emphasizing her obedience to God's word as being more critical than her biological role of mother. This affirms Luke 1:48.

Luke 11:28 - also, the Greek word for "rather" is "menounge." Menounge really means "Yes, but in addition," or "Further." Thus, Jesus is saying, yes my mother is blessed indeed, but further blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it. Jesus is encouraging others to follow Mary's example in order to build up His kingdom.

Luke 11:27-28 - finally, Jesus is the one being complimented, not Mary. Therefore, Jesus is refocusing the attention from Him to others who obey the word of God. If He is refocusing the attention away from Him to others, His comment cannot be a rebuke of Mary His mother.

John 2:4 - this is another example that Protestants use to diminish Mary's significance. Jesus' question to Mary, "what have you to do with me?" does no such thing. To the contrary, Jesus' question illustrates the importance of Mary's role in the kingdom. Jesus' question is in reality an invitation to His mother to intercede on behalf of all believers and begin His ministry, and His Mother understands this. Mary thus immediately intercedes, Jesus obeys her, and performs the miracle which commenced His ministry of redemption.

Luke 8:28 - the demons tell Jesus the same thing, "what have you to do with us." The demons are not rebuking Jesus, for God would not allow it. Instead, the demons are acknowledging the power of Jesus by their question to Him.

John 2:4; 19:26 - when Jesus uses the title "woman" (gnyai), it is a title of dignity and respect. It is the equivalent of Lady or Madam. Jesus honored His Mother as God requires us to do.



:amen:

If that is not enough i can post another couple of posts with the views of the Early Church Fathers (tradition) on the same points i just made

[sawitch]

BUMP!
I'm with you on this one Deornie. I can't see why Jesus didn't come out and say clearly that he was God, unless it's because he isn't!
Why would he leave us trying to interpret vague references 2000 years later?

[MikeMcK]

BUMP!
I'm with you on this one Deornie. I can't see why Jesus didn't come out and say clearly that he was God, unless it's because he isn't!

Actually, Jesus told us many times that He is God.

All of the Bible testifies to the fact that Jesus is God.

[simplyg123]

Its true Jesus is God.

Your flesh could not stand next to God, this is why our bodies will be glorified before we meet him, \

This is why God begot a son of flesh

so he could present hisself and teach you his will

If an elephant begets a son, what is it??...its an elephant.

So if God begets a son , what is it???...A human??
...NO! its GOD!!

why do we complicate the obvious??

[plmarquette]

implied ...the doctrine of the trinity : god the father , god the son , and god the holy spirit ...

the council of trent described just that ... that jesus was both man and god ...[ also refuted the gnostic gospels of arius ]

before abraham , i was [ part of the god head ] ; the angel of the lord is a type / shadow of Jesus ..

run a search on ye are gods ... sons of god ... the learned , anointed , and gifted who are to instruct those in darkness , free those in bondange isaIAH 61.1-3

[spirit1st]

We are spirits,God is a spirit,God came into mary as a spirit,and was placed in her to grow.There is only one GOD,HE is JESUS CHRIST,GOD and the HOLY GHOST.They are three in one ,just like us!


1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

We see in our lives,We are 3 parts ,but we do not count our selfs 2 people ,and we never see our spirit or our soul[mind] we just see the results of having these other two parts!

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
there are many scriptures i could put up!
But,without the SPIRIT OF TRUTH,revealing these things and us willing to accept HIS teachings?We will not know the Truth.still?We are to know,Jesus Christ as the Son,Because we have our life thiough HIM

He was in the old testament!
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1Co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.


Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Of course GOD also gives each a part of HIm,when we are Born again ,So we could wonder how can GOD give a part of HIm ,to each of us?
Our little minds cannot fully understand such things.It takes the Spirit of Truth[Gods Spiritto open our eyes]

[Seeker of the Truth]

The reason why Jesus call Himself the "Son of God" is because God implanted Mary with Christ. So God is the Father of Christ, while Christ is the Son of God.

Get it?

[MikeMcK]

The reason why Jesus call Himself the "Son of God" is because God implanted Mary with Christ. So God is the Father of Christ, while Christ is the Son of God.

Get it?

That isn't why Jesus referred to Himself as the Son of God.

It was an allusion to a Hebrew legal tradition in which the oldest (in this case, only) son had authority to carry out legal and business affairs on behalf of the father. The son's word and authority was essentially the same as the father's.

He was identifying His words and His authority with that of the Father.

[spirit1st]

VERY CLEAR HERE!1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

You see?It took me a long time to see this!
But,it does show ?The LOVE of GOD,That He really gave a part of HIMSELF for us!
And the scripture is clear,but we have our lives though JESUS CHRIST.
God gave HIm a name above all others,Even HIS!
This should open our eyes to the TRUTH!
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign forever and ever.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

ONLY ONE THRONE!
proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
THIS IS THE CREATOR!
He made Everything,iT IS VERY CLEAR!iF WE ARE WILLING TO ACEPT SCRIPTURE!ALL SCRIPTURE IS TRUE,aLL FITS TOGETHER PERFECTLY,BUT?iT IS OUR UNDERSTANDING THAT LACKS.NOT BEING ABLE TO SEE ?HOW THESE THINGS FIT TOGETHER?THEN,WE HAVE CONFUSEN IN OUR MINDS!

Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

YOUR SAYING,HE LIED?YOUR SAYING IT WAS ROBBERY!
HE SAID IT WAS NOT,BECAUSE HE IS GOD!
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

[calidog]

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

As you have seen, Jesus did'nt say He was God. He did better than that; He demonstrated it.

[Mathetes the kerux]

NO if it was really so he would have said it out loud directly "I am God" and many times to deciples and ppl and not in such indirect way.but Bible never mentions it derectly in the New Testament , I AM can refer to I AM the son of GOD.

And the jews could think that claim of being son of God is eqally blasphemous. ;)
Actually He did . . .notice the response of the Jews who understood exactly what He meant . . . "we want to stone you because you being a man make yourself out to be God" (John 10:29-33). Notice He didn't correct them. As a "son of God" and Rabbi, would not the righteous thing to do be to correct their misunderstanding? But He does not. Same with Thomas "My Lord and my God." Again no correction. He also recieves worship . . . something that NO good Jewish Rabbi or "son of God" would do.

Not to mention the explicit details in the rest of the New Testament . . . Phil 2 (being in very nature God) . . . Titus 2:13 where Jesus is called the "Great God and Savior" . . . Hebrews 1 and 2 . . . Acts 20:28 God purchased with His own blood the Church.

Ego Eimi (I AM) is a divine title (as seen in Exodus 3 . . . the very name of God) as is kurios (Lord) . . . both terms that a God-fearing Jew would never use in ascription to himself.

Jesus never explicitly said He was a man either . . . so is Jesus not human?

[Dave01]

From the Dead Sea Scrolls,.


14 (DSS) therefore {YHWH} {m..adonay} will give himself to be {a sign: Behold} the virgin shall conceive and bring forth a son and his name shall be called Immanuel.


From the lips of GOD HIMSELF.

Most translations refuse to bring out this particular aspect in this section, but it is there in the DSS. The OP may want to change her doctrine to fit scripture instead of trying to make scripture fit her doctrine.

[Tigg]

...

[kenblaster5000]

He could mean that in spirit! my father my mother my brother and I are one in spirit, the people of my country are one! that you can explain many ways... but hey read on:


THE JEWS said that! what did JESUS say???





My father is in me and I am in my father: leave alone genetic code, we are in each other spiritually, my father teaching me and bringing me up is in me and i am in my father for he learnt from me too!;)

Simply read WHAT Jesus said!

He said I AM SON OF GOD not I AM GOD and to think otherwise is a blasphemy!:amen: ;)
Jesus is God, so stone me!

You are a doubting Thomas, I have been there too. Stick your hands in his side.

John 20:27 Then He said to Thomas, Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbeleiving, but beleiving.

28 And Thomas answered and said to Him "My Lord and my God!"

God bless you sister. I just had the same problem with this question, so I know where you are coming from. Jesus is God, remember the doubting Thomas, not to be condescending, but read this for yourself. Don't you think the resurrected Christ would have rebuked Thomas. No, because everyone beleived there, like we do here that Jesus is God, but Thomas. I pray that the Holy Spirit will open this to you.

[fireman1173005]

Southern Baptist Here, the following is an excerpt from the Southern Baptist Faith and Message
II. God
There is one and only one living and true God. He is an intelligent, spiritual, and personal Being, the Creator, Redeemer, Preserver, and Ruler of the universe. God is infinite in holiness and all other perfections. God is all powerful and all knowing; and His perfect knowledge extends to all things, past, present, and future, including the future decisions of His free creatures. To Him we owe the highest love, reverence, and obedience. The eternal triune God reveals Himself to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence, or being.
A. God the Father
God as Father reigns with providential care over His universe, His creatures, and the flow of the stream of human history according to the purposes of His grace. He is all powerful, all knowing, all loving, and all wise. God is Father in truth to those who become children of God through faith in Jesus Christ. He is fatherly in His attitude toward all men.
Genesis 1:1; 2:7; Exodus 3:14; 6:2-3; 15:11ff.; 20:1ff.; Leviticus 22:2; Deuteronomy 6:4; 32:6; 1 Chronicles 29:10; Psalm 19:1-3; Isaiah 43:3,15; 64:8; Jeremiah 10:10; 17:13; Matthew 6:9ff.; 7:11; 23:9; 28:19; Mark 1:9-11; John 4:24; 5:26; 14:6-13; 17:1-8; Acts 1:7; Romans 8:14-15; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 4:6; Colossians 1:15; 1 Timothy 1:17; Hebrews 11:6; 12:9; 1 Peter 1:17; 1 John 5:7.
B. God the Son
Christ is the eternal Son of God. In His incarnation as Jesus Christ He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. Jesus perfectly revealed and did the will of God, taking upon Himself human nature with its demands and necessities and identifying Himself completely with mankind yet without sin. He honored the divine law by His personal obedience, and in His substitutionary death on the cross He made provision for the redemption of men from sin. He was raised from the dead with a glorified body and appeared to His disciples as the person who was with them before His crucifixion. He ascended into heaven and is now exalted at the right hand of God where He is the One Mediator, fully God, fully man, in whose Person is effected the reconciliation between God and man. He will return in power and glory to judge the world and to consummate His redemptive mission. He now dwells in all believers as the living and ever present Lord.
Genesis 18:1ff.; Psalms 2:7ff.; 110:1ff.; Isaiah 7:14; 53; Matthew 1:18-23; 3:17; 8:29; 11:27; 14:33; 16:16,27; 17:5; 27; 28:1-6,19; Mark 1:1; 3:11; Luke 1:35; 4:41; 22:70; 24:46; John 1:1-18,29; 10:30,38; 11:25-27; 12:44-50; 14:7-11; 16:15-16,28; 17:1-5, 21-22; 20:1-20,28; Acts 1:9; 2:22-24; 7:55-56; 9:4-5,20; Romans 1:3-4; 3:23-26; 5:6-21; 8:1-3,34; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 2:2; 8:6; 15:1-8,24-28; 2 Corinthians 5:19-21; 8:9; Galatians 4:4-5; Ephesians 1:20; 3:11; 4:7-10; Philippians 2:5-11; Colossians 1:13-22; 2:9; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 1 Timothy 2:5-6; 3:16; Titus 2:13-14; Hebrews 1:1-3; 4:14-15; 7:14-28; 9:12-15,24-28; 12:2; 13:8; 1 Peter 2:21-25; 3:22; 1 John 1:7-9; 3:2; 4:14-15; 5:9; 2 John 7-9; Revelation 1:13-16; 5:9-14; 12:10-11; 13:8; 19:16.
C. God the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, fully divine. He inspired holy men of old to write the Scriptures. Through illumination He enables men to understand truth. He exalts Christ. He convicts men of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. He calls men to the Saviour, and effects regeneration. At the moment of regeneration He baptizes every believer into the Body of Christ. He cultivates Christian character, comforts believers, and bestows the spiritual gifts by which they serve God through His church. He seals the believer unto the day of final redemption. His presence in the Christian is the guarantee that God will bring the believer into the fullness of the stature of Christ. He enlightens and empowers the believer and the church in worship, evangelism, and service.
Genesis 1:2; Judges 14:6; Job 26:13; Psalms 51:11; 139:7ff.; Isaiah 61:1-3; Joel 2:28-32; Matthew 1:18; 3:16; 4:1; 12:28-32; 28:19; Mark 1:10,12; Luke 1:35; 4:1,18-19; 11:13; 12:12; 24:49; John 4:24; 14:16-17,26; 15:26; 16:7-14; Acts 1:8; 2:1-4,38; 4:31; 5:3; 6:3; 7:55; 8:17,39; 10:44; 13:2; 15:28; 16:6; 19:1-6; Romans 8:9-11,14-16,26-27; 1 Corinthians 2:10-14; 3:16; 12:3-11,13; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30; 5:18; 1 Thessalonians 5:19; 1 Timothy 3:16; 4:1; 2 Timothy 1:14; 3:16; Hebrews 9:8,14; 2 Peter 1:21; 1 John 4:13; 5:6-7; Revelation 1:10; 22:17.

[Nice Dream]

Maybe i missed it but i'm surprised no one mentioned
26 Now a week later his disciples were again inside and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, although the doors were locked, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you." 27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here and see my hands, and bring your hand and put it into my side, and do not be unbelieving, but believe." 28 Thomas answered and said to him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."
From John 20.

Jesus directly agrees that He is God.

I just wonder, considering your disagreement with the scriptures already posted, whether you have already set yourself on course to take up a false religion like Jehova's Witnesses. I hope God shows you the truth.

[Nice Dream]

I think it would be beneficial for you to study Jewish history to see what points Jesus was making by miracles he performed and things he said, like 'your sins are forgiven' for example. God alone can forgive sin.

[spirit1st]

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.



1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.


Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

oh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

[Blake4000]

Again we have an incorrect totally taken out of context interpretation of scripture.

-JESUS WAS NOT GOD!.-

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)"


FROM THIS VERSE ALONE - we can see that Jesus knew God was above Him, God was his Father.

If Jesus doesn't consider himself as "good", then how can any sane person put him on the same level as GOD Almighty?

Jesus PRAYED to God, he would have no need to pray to himself.


Going to do a diffrent post to explain proofs.

[Mathetes the kerux]

Again we have an incorrect totally taken out of context interpretation of scripture.

-JESUS WAS NOT GOD!.-

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)"


FROM THIS VERSE ALONE - we can see that Jesus knew God was above Him, God was his Father.

If Jesus doesn't consider himself as "good", then how can any sane person put him on the same level as GOD Almighty?

Jesus PRAYED to God, he would have no need to pray to himself.


Going to do a diffrent post to explain proofs.

Was there supposed to be a quote in that or was that all you?

[spirit1st]

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

our natural thinking,does not give us full truth!
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
JESUS CHRIST IS INDEED GOD COME INTO THE FLESH!

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

[Blake4000]

Let me explain, verses that are taken out of context and verses that actually reinforce the fact that Jesus was not God. Jesus several times referred to God as a different entity.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven” (Matthew 7:21)
“And the Father himself, which hath sent me, bore witness of Me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape” (John 5:37)
“And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.” (Mark 10:18)
“And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges.” (John 8:50)
“ Jesus answered them and said, “my doctrine are not Mine, but His who sent Me” (John 7:16)
“he who does not love me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent me” (John 14:24)
“For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak” (John 12:49)
“Jesus said to them, ‘My food is to do the will of Him who sent me, and to accomplish His work” (John 4:34)
“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent me” (John 6:38)
“saying, ‘Father, if it is your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not My will, but Yours, be done” (Luke 22:42)
“I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me” (John 5:30)
“I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him” (John 13:16)
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I” (John 14:28)
“Jesus said to them, ‘If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me” (John 8:42)
“To sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father” (Matthew 20:23)
“So Jesus answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me” (John 7:16)

There we have scriptural evidence that is NOT and cannot POSSIBLY be taken out of context, PROOF that Jesus is not God. So stop following this delusion that is spouted by the "organized" church.

[Blake4000]

"spirit1st", that verse does not mean what YOU think it means. Christ called himself LORD, Lord is merely a title, such as we have "sir" today, or "madam" he was not implying here that he was God. Again you take verses totally out of context to fit with your beliefs/views.

[Mathetes the kerux]

Let me explain, verses that are taken out of context and verses that actually reinforce the fact that Jesus was not God. Jesus several times referred to God as a different entity.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven” (Matthew 7:21)
“And the Father himself, which hath sent me, bore witness of Me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape” (John 5:37)
“And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.” (Mark 10:18)
“And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges.” (John 8:50)
“ Jesus answered them and said, “my doctrine are not Mine, but His who sent Me” (John 7:16)
“he who does not love me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent me” (John 14:24)
“For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak” (John 12:49)
“Jesus said to them, ‘My food is to do the will of Him who sent me, and to accomplish His work” (John 4:34)
“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent me” (John 6:38)
“saying, ‘Father, if it is your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not My will, but Yours, be done” (Luke 22:42)
“I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me” (John 5:30)
“I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him” (John 13:16)
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I” (John 14:28)
“Jesus said to them, ‘If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me” (John 8:42)
“To sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father” (Matthew 20:23)
“So Jesus answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me” (John 7:16)

There we have scriptural evidence that is NOT and cannot POSSIBLY be taken out of context, PROOF that Jesus is not God. So stop following this delusion that is spouted by the "organized" church.
Your icon says "Nazarene" . . . I would suggest that you speak to your pastor about your church's position.

The verses that you post really do nothing but affirm the portion of the doctrine of Trinity that states that the three are distinct persons . . . that is all.

As many verses that you post that distinguish the members of the God-head there are just as many that provide clear scriptural support that Jesus is indeed divine . . . God made flesh.

The verses you propose only cause a problem to those that want to say that Jesus is actually also the Father . . . and that there are NO distinctions in the God-head.

Pax

[spirit1st]

Listen I know you mean well! But your wrong!
God gave a part of HIM self for man kind!
JESUS CHRIST IS GOD IN THE FLESH .
I know you cannot see it?
Others can.I being one!
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Deu 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God
He does not share HIS place with any!

[Blake4000]

God has no human son. The Human Being that was Jesus Christ was Prince Micheal, GOD'S SON. Whom is an angel. Jesus was God's word in the flesh, But not God himself, nowhere. Jesus was full of LOVE for everyone, which is what God is made of. This is my understanding after reading the scripture, I belong to no Church, I have no Pastor, and I live in the Uk, where Atheism is very common.

[spirit1st]

I fully understand your thinking,As once I really thought ,I would see two beings,I was wrong.
Now I fully understand there is but one being.
Just as we are three parts ,made In GODS image.HE too has three part .
I could not see this for over a year or two after being BORN OF GOD!

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Also?When we read the scriptures we must think?which part is these scriptures too?my spirit my soul [mind] or my flesh


as we see some like this We cannot sin
and we must ask to be forgiven of sins
Both type scriptures are true !
one to toward our spirit the other toward our flesh or outward mind!

[Mathetes the kerux]

God has no human son. The Human Being that was Jesus Christ was Prince Micheal, GOD'S SON. Whom is an angel. Jesus was God's word in the flesh, But not God himself, nowhere. Jesus was full of LOVE for everyone, which is what God is made of. This is my understanding after reading the scripture, I belong to no Church, I have no Pastor, and I live in the Uk, where Atheism is very common.
Yet your faith icon says your belong to the Nazarene Denom.

If Jesus were an angel then explain . . .

Hebrews 1:5-14
For to which of the angels did He ever say,
"YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"?
And again,
" I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME"?
6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
"AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."
7 And of the angels He says,
"WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE."
8 But of the Son He says,
"YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 "YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS."
10 And,
"YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END."
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said,
"SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET"?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?

And what of angel worship . . . prohibited strictly . . . and all angels when a person began to worship them rebuked them and corrected them . . . yet when Jesus is worshipped He accepts it . . .

sorry dude . . . your thoughts are the same as the Jehovahs Witnesses . . . and Arius of Alexandria in the fourth Cent. who was denounced as a heretic.

Be warned . . . according to Christian Forums' rules . . . you are not even a Christian and shouldn't be posting in the "Christian's Only" area. I don't care if you do . . . but be prepared when a MOD confronts you.

[spirit1st]

THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS NO ANGEL.HE is GOD come into the flesh .
HE is alpha and omega .The begining and the end!
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs