Food Ethics

[karen freeinchristman]

It's becoming increasingly clear to me that my family's diet needs to change. My kids are eating more and more unhealthy snacks (my fault, I know), and my husband has had the news that his meds dosage for diabetes needs to increase (and that one day, he will have to begin insulin injections). I've bought one of those new "Low G.I. Diet" books. I'm not too excited about getting started. :sigh:

One only needs to look around at the shop shelves to see what items are the big sellers - Sweets, Crisps (or potato chips), Ice Cream and Alcohol all have their own aisles, whereas some healthier foods do not reach that same status due to less demand.

Here (http://www.filosofie.science.ru.nl/cv/food%20ethics.pdf) is an interesting read about the history of food ethics. As Christians, shouldn't we be more concerned with what (and how much) we put into our mouths? :confused:

[Inside Edge]

I certainly think so. My wife and I are more and more scrutinizing about what we eat as time passes. If you're having trouble getting started, the real key is one small step at a time. I know it's cliche, but take if from someone who couldn't change anything about his diet 3 or 4 years ago even if you paid me to do it. I'd say I've cleaned up about 50% of my diet in a few short years and it started with the tiniest of changes.

But for us, "food ethics" is also about how that food reached our mouths, not just what's in it or how healthy it is. We've made big changes (again, through small steps) when it comes to organics and fair trade goods.

[Wigglesworth]

Karen,

Please check out the book Infectious Diabetes available here (http://www.knowthecause.com/store/). It really is all about what we eat.

:thumbsup:

[Torah613]

I don't know if it would work in your situation, but as a hypoglycemic my blood sugar has become a lot more manageable since I went Vegan. The ethical benefits of a Vegan diet is, that its one small step towards solving world hunger and a pretty significant step towards saving the environment. These are in addition to preventing unnecessary animal suffering. For more information on these read "Diet For a New America" or check out www.peta.org (http://www.peta.org)

The key to going vegan, as with any other diet, is one small step at a time. Give up beef this week, and next week give up chicken, and next week give up eggs etc.

Joe Zollars

[karen freeinchristman]

Thank you all for the support and advice. I'll look into that book, Wigglesworth. :)

Not sure we can go Vegan, Joe, but we hardly ever eat beef. I often eat vegetarian, but the hubby has to have meat (so he says). I doubt we could cope without cheese and eggs. :yum: :sorry:

I totally agree, Inside Edge, that food ethics has much to do with sourcing. :thumbsup:

[gtsecc]

Eating is ritualistic and communal in it essence. Even if you are not Christian, you and your culture know this and embrace it. Christians know why – God put us in dominion over the world to bless it as his creation. Original sin was an act of eating which broke our communion with God. Eating from the tree of knowledge of good an evil. The Eucharist is eating from the other tree in the Garden of Eden, the Tree of Life. Christ giving himself for us on the wooden cross is that Tree of Life:
The undoing of Lev 11:17 id John 6:53

Lev 17: 10 "If any man of the house of Israel or of the strangers that sojourn among them eats any blood, I will set my face against that person who eats blood, and will cut him off from among his people. 11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it for you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement, by reason of the life.

Jesus turns this on its head:


John 6: 53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.

The Church has also taught that we should not stuff ourselves when eating, and always leave a meal slightly less than full. I will have to look for the exact quotes and teachings.

[gtsecc]

The Eucharist is not symbolic of eating and dinning with your family. Eating and dining with your family is symbolic of the Eucharist. So, as a type of "communion," eating should not be done with gluttony.

[Colabomb]

Gluttony is a sin.

I don't believe that vegetarianism is more holy than eating meat, but I believe Healthy eating is holier than unhealthy eating.

And this isn't a holier than thou thought either. I am overweight and don't eat as I should.

[gtsecc]

QUOTES ON FASTING


"If there is a needy or a poor among them; they fast two or three days and send him the food which they would have prepared for themselves" (Aristides writing in defense of the Christians to Emperor Adrianos, 128 A.D.).

It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause any man to stumble (Romans 14:21)

Fasting then, and lying on the bare ground, and keeping virginity, and a self-denying life, these things bring their advantage to the persons themselves who do them; but those that pass from ourselves to our neighbors are almsgiving, teaching, charity. Hear then Paul in this matter also saying, Though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, I am nothing profiled (St. John Chrysostom)

But in all things we commend ourselves as ministers of God: in much patience, in tribulations, in needs, in distresses, in stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in sleeplessness, in fastings; by purity, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Spirit, by sincere love, by the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armor of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, by honor and dishonor, by evil report and good report; as deceivers, and yet true; as unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and behold we live; as chastened, and yet not killed; as sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet posessing all things. (2 Corinthians 6:4 10)

"The body which is burdened with meat is afflicted with diseases. A moderate way of living makes the body healthier and stronger and cuts off the root of evil. The stream of meat meals darkens the light of the spirit. One can hardly have virtue if one enjoys meat meals and feasts." (St Basil the Great)

"The debauchery in meat meals is an infamous injustice." (St. Gregory of Nazianzen)

Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, 'Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away. (Acts 13:1 3)

"We do not fast because we think there is anything in itself unclean about the act of eating and drinking. Food and drink are, on the contrary, Gods gift, from which we are to partake with enjoyment and gratitude. We fast, not because we despise the divine gift, but so as to make ourselves aware that it is indeed a gift so as to purify our eating and drinking, and to make them, no longer a concession to greed, but a sacrament and means of communion with the Giver. Understood in this way, ascetic fasting is directed not against the body but against the flesh. Its aim is not destructively to weaken the body, but creatively to render the body more spiritual." (Bishop Kallistos Ware)

Moreover, when you fast, do not be like the hypocrites, with a sad countenance. For they disfigure their faces that they may appear to men to be fasting. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward."

But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, so that you do not appear to men to be fasting, but to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. (Matthew 6: 16 18)

"Do you fast? Give me proof of it by your works. If you see a poor man, take pity on him. If you see a friend being honored, do not envy him. Do not let only your mouth fast, but also the eye, and the ear, and let the feet, and the hands, and all the members of our bodies. Let the hands fast, by being free of avarice. Let t feet fast, by ceasing to run after sin. Let the eyes fast, by disciplining them not to glare at what is sinful...Let the ear fast...by not listening to evil talk or gossip...Let the mouth fast from foul words and unjust criticism. For what good is it if we abstain from meat and fish, but bite and devour our brothers?" (St. John the Chrysostom)

The disciples of John and of the Pharisees were fasting. Then they came and said to Him, Why do the disciples of John and of the Pharisees fast, but Your disciples do not fast? And Jesus said to them, Can the friends of the bridegroom fast while the bridegroom is with them? As long as they have the bridegroom with them they cannot fast. But the days will come when the bridegroom will be taken away from them, and then they will fast in those days. (Mark 2:18 20)

The benefits of fasting or abstinence are enormous. This does not have anything to do with the reasons many today use the discipline of fasting. For in our day we see individuals fasting as a political tool or other type of protest, a way of losing extra pounds, or even as a desire to die. Christian fasting is blessed by God Himself for it is the message of the believer to God that he de-sires the eternal blessings that are to come rather than the finite blessings of this life. Its benefits include increased spiritual strength, true obedience to God and total patience with one's fellow man. It assists the believer to take control of his lower appetites that involve the physical senses. The believer becomes mentally alert and sensitive to what is happening all around him. Moreover his understanding of life is also expanded. (Bishop Isaiah of Denver)

"...The teaching of these words is this. Bless those who curse you, and pray for your enemies: fast for those who persecute you...Do not let your fasts be with the hypocrites. They fast on Monday and Thursday; but you will fast on Wednesday and Friday." (The Didache, C. 90 - 150 A.D.)

"On the day of the fast, eat only bread and water and, working out the cost of the food you would have consumed, give a corresponding sum to a widow, an orphan, a needy person...Observe these things with your children and all your household; thus you will be happy." (Shepherd of Hermas, C. 140 - 150 A.D.)

"Likewise, in regard to days of fast, many do not think they should be present at the sacrificial prayers, because their fast would be broken if they were to receive the Body of the Lord...Will not your fast be more solemn if, in addition, you have stood at God's altar?" (Tertullian, The Demurrer Against the Heretics, Prayer, C. 200 - 206 A.D.)

"Those who do not believe in the afterlife indulge in food and drink." (St. Ambrose of Milan, +397 A.D., Ep. 63, 17)

"If you wish to be perfect, it is better to fatten the soul than the body." (St. Jerome, +420 A.D., Ep. 54, 105)

"The abstinence of him who fasts becomes the nourishment of the poor." (St. Leo I, Sermon 13, 1, Ante 461 A.D.)

"Yet even now, says the Lord, return to me with all your heart, with fasting, with weeping, and with mourning." (Joel 2, 12)

"The sisters of fasting are five: 1) prayer, 2) charity, 3) humility, 4) abstinence, 5) love. Fasting without prayer is simply a medical diet, a healthy diet, a change of eating habits. Fasting without charity is selfishness and co-worker with.... greed. Fasting without humility is food for the monster of vanity. Fasting without abstinence is simply mockery. Fasting without love can become cannibalism!" (The Orthodox Messenger, Mar/April 1998, Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia)

[RedneckAnglican]

Celebration of Disipline by Richard Foster has an eintire section on fasting...it's a very good read...it's something I'm giving a lot of thought about myself...

[gtsecc]

These are thanks to eoe over at TAW:

I shall speak first about control of the stomach, the opposite to gluttony, and about how to fast and what and how much to eat. I shall say nothing on my own account, but only what I have received from the Holy Fathers. They have not given us only a single rule for fasting or a single standard and measure for eating, because not everyone has the same strength; age, illness or delicacy of body create differences. But they have given us all a single goal: to avoid over-eating and the filling of our bellies... A clear rule for self-control handed down by the Fathers is this: stop eating while still hungry and do not continue until you are satisfied. St. John Cassian

[gtsecc]

The Three Degrees of Eating
According to St. Gregory the Sinaite there are three degrees in eating: temperance, sufficiency, and satiety. Temperance is when someone wants to eat some more food but abstains, rising from the table still somewhat hungry. Sufficiency is when someone eats what is needed and sufficient for normal nourishment. Satiety is when someone eats more than enough and is more than satisfied. Now if you cannot keep the first two degrees and you proceed to the third, then, at least, do not become a glutton, remembering the words of the Lord: "Woe to you that are full now, for you shall hunger" (Lk 6:25). Remember also that rich man who ate in this present life sumptuously every day, but who was deprived of the desired bosom of Abraham in the next life, simply because of this sumptuous eating. Remember how he longed to refresh his tongue with a drop of water.


St. Basil not only did not forgive the young people who ate to satiety but also those who ate until satisfied; he preferred that all eat temperately. He said, "Nothing subdues and controls the body as does the practice of temperance. It is this temperance that serves as a control to those youthful passions and desires."'


St. Gregory the Theologian has also noted in his poetry: "No satiety has brought forth prudent behavior; for it is in the nature of fire to consume matter. And a filled stomach expels refined thoughts; it is the tendency of opposites to oppose each other."


Job, too, assuming that one could fall into sin through eating, offered sacrifice to God for his sons who were feasting among themselves. "And when the days of the feast had run their course, Job would send and sanctify them, and he would rise early in the morning and offer burnt offerings according to the number of them all; for Job said: 'It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts'" (Jb 1:5-8). In interpreting this passage Olympiodoros wrote: "We learn from this that we ought to avoid such feasts which can bring on sinfulness. We must also purify ourselves after they have been concluded, even if these are conducted for the sake of concord and brotherly love as in the case of the sons of Job."
Surely then, if the sons of Job were not at a feast but in prayer or some other spiritual activity, the devil would not have dared to destroy the house and them, as Origen interpreted the passage: "The devil was looking for an opportunity to destroy them. Had he found them reading, he would not have touched the house, having no reason to put them to death. Had he found them in prayer, he would not have had any power to do anything against them. But when he found an opportune time, he was powerful. What was the opportune time? It was the time of feasting and drinking." Do you see then, dear reader, how many evils are brought forth by luxurious foods and feasting in general? A Handbook of Spiritual Counsel, by St. Nicodemos (Chapter 6)

[karen freeinchristman]

Good finds, Glen, thanks! :)

[SumTinWong]

:confused:As Christians, shouldn't we be more concerned with what (and how much) we put into our mouths?
Yes and Amen. I have changed my outlook on food and do not let it control me anymore. I have lost 85 pounds since December based on diet and excercise and I feel like I am 28 not 38. I stopped poisoning myself with fast foods and high fructose corn syrup which is horrible for you and your body.

Telling you now folks, we are going to have a generation of overweight dead young people if we keep feeding them this garbage, no matter how easy it is to serve, or good it tastes.

Don't get me started on moderation either because it takes 3 months for your body to get rid of most fast food meals today.

[cenimo]

Peruse some of the threads concrning this over in the SDA forums.

No one can touch them when it comes to healthy lifestyles.

Thye've got the best health stats of any group, lowest disease rates and longest lifespans.

[Torah613]

Is vegetarianism a healthier lifestyle than the average american dietary habits? yes

Is it necessarily a holier lifestyle? sometimes, but not always.

with that disclaimer, I will say that, at least in the US, the conditions in which animals are raised for slaughter (yes contrary to popular belief it actually was an animal prior to being put in celophane wrapping) are so deplorable, I don't understand how anyone with a heart could not be a vegetarian. Of course, not everyone has had the great privelange of seeing these conditions first hand. Personally, I don't see Lacto-ova vegetarianism as being a better lifestyle because it doesn't address the issues of egglaying hens (Whose conditions are possibly the most deplorable) or of milk (as we like to say in the V community, every glass of milk has a little veal in it). Veal calves are raised in a box, usually smaller than the standard bathtub where they are not allowed to move, laydown, excercise, or (literally) see daylight. They are killed at 14 weeks of age.

In addition to the animal suffering issues, one must also deal with the environmental issues. Beef farming is responsible for well over 50% of tropical rainforest destruction (just by giving up beef for one year, one person saves on average one acre of tropical rainforest) and factory farming of animals in general is responsible for some 70% of soil erosion and water pollution. Add to this the waste products from the meat and animal byproducts, and you have an enourmous green advantage of joining the vegetarian/vegan community.

Joe Zollars

[Torah613]

a couple of links on the topic are as follows:

The Meatrix (http://www.themeatrix.com/) a fun flash cartoon that shows, in animated and played down form the conditions of factory farming.

Compassion Over Killing (http://www.cok.net/) is a non-profit advocacy organization based in DC that deals with animal rights issues.

Farm (http://www.farmsanctuary.org/) Sanctuary is a wonderful organization that takes in dillapidated animals and literally rescues them from under the knife. They do a lot of wonderful work and demonstations about animal rights.

Joe Zollars

[SirTimothy]

Can't think of the last time I had unhealthy fast food... we do eat souvlaki once every two-three weeks, but Cypriot souvlaki is mostly salads with some meat.

I could never go fully vegetarian. I love meat too much. :) Of course, in Cyprus we don't have meat factories like in the USA. :)

[karen freeinchristman]

Is vegetarianism a healthier lifestyle than the average american dietary habits? yes

Is it necessarily a holier lifestyle? sometimes, but not always.

with that disclaimer, I will say that, at least in the US, the conditions in which animals are raised for slaughter (yes contrary to popular belief it actually was an animal prior to being put in celophane wrapping) are so deplorable, I don't understand how anyone with a heart could not be a vegetarian. Of course, not everyone has had the great privelange of seeing these conditions first hand. Personally, I don't see Lacto-ova vegetarianism as being a better lifestyle because it doesn't address the issues of egglaying hens (Whose conditions are possibly the most deplorable) or of milk (as we like to say in the V community, every glass of milk has a little veal in it). Veal calves are raised in a box, usually smaller than the standard bathtub where they are not allowed to move, laydown, excercise, or (literally) see daylight. They are killed at 14 weeks of age.

In addition to the animal suffering issues, one must also deal with the environmental issues. Beef farming is responsible for well over 50% of tropical rainforest destruction (just by giving up beef for one year, one person saves on average one acre of tropical rainforest) and factory farming of animals in general is responsible for some 70% of soil erosion and water pollution. Add to this the waste products from the meat and animal byproducts, and you have an enourmous green advantage of joining the vegetarian/vegan community.

Joe Zollars

I buy eggs that are from free-range hens, exclusively. Also, I am pretty sure that the milk here in the UK is from cows that have had calves that are allowed to be normal calves (apart from being taken from their mother early), and not veal-calves. I'm not totally sure though. I think I will look into it if I have time. I think the way veal calves are treated is deplorable. Same with the geese that are force-fed for that pate stuff.

Most of my co-workers have had to visit the slaughterhouses to obtain dead bits of horses for research (luckily I haven't had to). They still eat meat though, even after seeing all of that.

[SirTimothy]

Just to note that it's paté, not pate. And it's glorious with just a tiny bit on french bread with cream cheese... unfortunately I'm not allowed to eat either as they both contain milk. :(

Timothy

[Keturah]

Is vegetarianism a healthier lifestyle than the average american dietary habits? yes

Is it necessarily a holier lifestyle? sometimes, but not always.

with that disclaimer, I will say that, at least in the US, the conditions in which animals are raised for slaughter (yes contrary to popular belief it actually was an animal prior to being put in celophane wrapping) are so deplorable, I don't understand how anyone with a heart could not be a vegetarian. Of course, not everyone has had the great privelange of seeing these conditions first hand. Personally, I don't see Lacto-ova vegetarianism as being a better lifestyle because it doesn't address the issues of egglaying hens (Whose conditions are possibly the most deplorable) or of milk (as we like to say in the V community, every glass of milk has a little veal in it). Veal calves are raised in a box, usually smaller than the standard bathtub where they are not allowed to move, laydown, excercise, or (literally) see daylight. They are killed at 14 weeks of age.

In addition to the animal suffering issues, one must also deal with the environmental issues. Beef farming is responsible for well over 50% of tropical rainforest destruction (just by giving up beef for one year, one person saves on average one acre of tropical rainforest) and factory farming of animals in general is responsible for some 70% of soil erosion and water pollution. Add to this the waste products from the meat and animal byproducts, and you have an enourmous green advantage of joining the vegetarian/vegan community.

Joe Zollars

:thumbsup:


Also, I am pretty sure that the milk here in the UK is from cows that have had calves that are allowed to be normal calves (apart from being taken from their mother early), and not veal-calves.

Male calves are of little use to a dairy farmer whatever country they're in. Some get shot when they are born, some end up as veal.

[Torah613]

I buy eggs that are from free-range hens, exclusively. Also, I am pretty sure that the milk here in the UK is from cows that have had calves that are allowed to be normal calves (apart from being taken from their mother early), and not veal-calves. I'm not totally sure though. I think I will look into it if I have time. I think the way veal calves are treated is deplorable. Same with the geese that are force-fed for that pate stuff.

Most of my co-workers have had to visit the slaughterhouses to obtain dead bits of horses for research (luckily I haven't had to). They still eat meat though, even after seeing all of that.

This brings up a point about veganism that most don't understand, were generally not against the consumption of animal byproducts or meat, at least if they don't come from animals who are suffering for the production. Thus Kosher meats (Kosher laws require killing animals in a fashion that doesn't release adrenaline) and free range meats, eggs, milks etc. are acceptable.

Joe Zollars

[longhair75]

i once spent a little over a year working in a slaughter house running the tongue saw. it is amazing what a man will do to keep his children fed during a recession....

[Wigglesworth]

As someone with experience eating what I've killed, and having grown up around dairy farms, I can assure you that the milk produced in my area is not coming from factory farms that have rows of veal calves in boxes.

In my area, it is typical for farmers to feed all calves that are born on their farms until they take them to auction. Heifers, female cattle that have not yet had calves, are valuable for their future milk production. Bull calves, the males, are sold at auction for butchering, or raised as steers, males who have lost a significant portion of their maleness, for butchering after growing.

This is not to diminish respect for the dietary choices others have made. However, lets speak the truth. Universal statements about calves in boxes and the destruction of the earth being caused by factory farms is not an accurate description of our entire food supply. It is not true that every glass of milk contains a little veal. Some of us are close enough to the source to know better.

[Colabomb]

This brings up a point about veganism that most don't understand, were generally not against the consumption of animal byproducts or meat, at least if they don't come from animals who are suffering for the production. Thus Kosher meats (Kosher laws require killing animals in a fashion that doesn't release adrenaline) and free range meats, eggs, milks etc. are acceptable.

Joe Zollars
That may be your veganism, but is it the typical?

[No Swansong]

This brings up a point about veganism that most don't understand, were generally not against the consumption of animal byproducts or meat, at least if they don't come from animals who are suffering for the production. Thus Kosher meats (Kosher laws require killing animals in a fashion that doesn't release adrenaline) and free range meats, eggs, milks etc. are acceptable.

Joe Zollars


This isn't accurate according to every Vegan I know (4) To these individuals, Veganism is defined by the fact that they eat no animal or animal by-products period. They have assured me that this is the generally accepted definition.

[Inside Edge]

yes contrary to popular belief it actually was an animal prior to being put in celophane wrapping) are so deplorable, I don't understand how anyone with a heart could not be a vegetarian.

There are a lot of issues brought up in this post. I honestly think that, conditions aside, there would be a whole lot more vegetarians if people saw even the most tame of animal butcherings, let alone the horrible conditions in some parts of the agri-business. As Joe pointed out, we're used to our cuts of meat already wrapped and ready to go, and as such, with each passing generation, we're more and more desensitized to eating a once-alive animal. My wife and I are dreading (a little) the day our 1.5yr old daughter "clues in" to what she is eating. Those Baby Einstein videos of the farm don't include the process of how the animal ends up on our table... ;)

That said, I'd go veggie in a heartbeat if it were that easy. There's a lot to adjust for if you just throw meat out of your diet, and like everything else in life, we need to pick our battles.

As such, we make every effort to eat meat, dairy, or eggs from organic, free range and/or wild animals. Same goes for other foods - if it's available in organic and fair trade, we buy it. If not, we pester the grocer for it and pay for it.

Those efforts alone often come at a high cost, and we're not even "hardcore" about it. For example, if my (pregant) wife wants steak and there's no organic option around(especially in a restaurant), we don't settle for the veggie fajitas and call it a night.

Like everything else, I believe the important thing is to start making the changes as small and as best you can. We've found that, over a few years, the little changes have added up, and gotten a lot easier to incorporate.

[karen freeinchristman]

Inside Edge, you are wise not to refuse your pregnant wife any food that she craves! :)


Comfort-eating and boredom-eating are big issues for me as a Christian. "I shouldn't need comfort, I have Jesus!"
"I shouldn't ever be bored, there's so much mission to do!" :sigh:

(I'm going to get up off my you-know-what now and do some exercises! :) )

[Torah613]

Cola and JTHdad:

Veganism itself is defined by not eating animal by products. Perhaps I should have been more clear, almost all the vegans I know (several hundred) have no problem with other people eating free range and ethically treated animal products. We all have a problem with others eating the factory farmed stuff. Truth be told, in america most people go vegan for the specific purposes of trying to deal an economic blow to the factory-farming industry. At the same time we tend to frequent farmer's markets more so that we can support the local farmers (not to mention the veggies just taste darn better).

Wigglesworth:

Is that milk bought from say a small local outfit or the farmers market? or is it bought from Hiland or some other like national chain?

I admire you for being able to live in an area where you see the more sanitary ideal of agribusiness. Unfortunately I've not only lived around but actually worked on said factory farms (mostly tyson chicken houses and egg-laying houses, but also a factory dairy farm). Its certainly not a pretty sight.

Inside Eagle:

Not everyone can go vegetarian, let alone vegan. If you can, there are whole books that have been written about the health benefits of being vegan (as an example, my blood sugar levels are actually under control). But not everyone can do it.

The important thing is to realize that the money we spend is the biggest bargaining chip we have and to use it to force a change towards more ethical choices.

Joe Zollars

[No Swansong]

Cola and JTHdad:

Veganism itself is defined by not eating animal by products. Perhaps I should have been more clear, almost all the vegans I know (several hundred) have no problem with other people eating free range and ethically treated animal products. We all have a problem with others eating the factory farmed stuff. Truth be told, in america most people go vegan for the specific purposes of trying to deal an economic blow to the factory-farming industry. At the same time we tend to frequent farmer's markets more so that we can support the local farmers (not to mention the veggies just taste darn better).

Wigglesworth:

Is that milk bought from say a small local outfit or the farmers market? or is it bought from Hiland or some other like national chain?

I admire you for being able to live in an area where you see the more sanitary ideal of agribusiness. Unfortunately I've not only lived around but actually worked on said factory farms (mostly tyson chicken houses and egg-laying houses, but also a factory dairy farm). Its certainly not a pretty sight.

Inside Eagle:

Not everyone can go vegetarian, let alone vegan. If you can, there are whole books that have been written about the health benefits of being vegan (as an example, my blood sugar levels are actually under control). But not everyone can do it.

The important thing is to realize that the money we spend is the biggest bargaining chip we have and to use it to force a change towards more ethical choices.

Joe Zollars


Thanks for the clarification Joe.
As for us, we simply cannot afford to eat free-range, organic etc.

[Finella]

Thanks for the clarification Joe.
As for us, we simply cannot afford to eat free-range, organic etc.

Go veggie, then. Beans and tofu are cheap. :D

I kid, because I am just as guilty as you. I love meat, and yet we cannot afford the free-range organic stuff all the time. I've found, though, some alternative places to shop that are not that expensive and have better (although not perfect) options. For instance, one major supermarket we often frequent has very decently-priced organic produce and off-brand organic dry products -- the latter usually being much less expensive than the conventional name-brand stuff I like. We also shop at Trader Joe's a lot. I figure it's better than eating conventional food full-time.

I also love farmer's markets and find that this is the best option for local, well-produced and raised food. When I can we shop there.

But I keep meaning to join a food co-op in town which stocks organic, local, and sensitively sourced foods. Right now we don't have the spare $ for the membership, nor the time to work off the membership $, but I still think it would be good to do.

[SumTinWong]

Go veggie, then. Beans and tofu are cheap.
And tofu tastes nasty. I am primarily a person that eats things with two legs or less, and my foods have to be organic or fresh, but tofu is just nasty. I cannot stomach most of the fakin bacon types of foods that try and convince you they are something they are not. Boca makes a really good lasagna, and the chix patties are harmless, but they don't come close to the tasty goodness of real foods.

I also love farmer's markets and find that this is the best option for local, well-produced and raised food. When I can we shop there.
This is good advice. You can usually get twice as much food for half the price at farmers markets and they are ALWAYS fresh.

[Keturah]

And tofu tastes nasty. I am primarily a person that eats things with two legs or less, and my foods have to be organic or fresh, but tofu is just nasty. I cannot stomach most of the fakin bacon types of foods that try and convince you they are something they are not. Boca makes a really good lasagna, and the chix patties are harmless, but they don't come close to the tasty goodness of real foods.


Imo tofu tastes however you want it to taste. When I cook some tofu I usually marinate it in a chilli stir fry sauce and then stir fry it with veggies and noodles. Tastes yummy. :yum:

I occasionally eat some Quorn fake "chicken" but that's the only fake meat I eat. Even when I ate meat I only liked chicken, so I've never tried any of the fake sausages/burgers/whatever you can get...I figure if I didn't like the real thing before I'm hardly going to like the fake stuff now ;)

[Inside Edge]

As for us, we simply cannot afford to eat free-range, organic etc
This is very true in most parts. In my neck of the woods, it's not too bad, so our costs only increase about 25%.

If we were to drop meat, we'd probably feel like we were eating for free - meat is ridiculously expensive around here...

[Torah613]

Disclaimer: I'm primarily raw, and only eat cooked foods a couple times a week and that seldom involves tofu.

Tofu has no taste of its own. If eaten in its natural taste it will literally taste like nothingness. However with the proper seasonings and preperation it can be absolutely delicious. I have a recipee for a chocolate "cream" pie made from tofu. The key with Tofu in preperations is moisture. Cut the block of tofu in halph, lay both halves ona paper towl and put another layer of towles on top of the tofu. On top of the above assembled place a plate and on top of that a large can. Let sit for 15-20 minutes and the excess moisture will have drained off.

Seitan, however, is a whole other story. I personally don't know if it can be cooked wrong.

The fake meats to me seem pretty ridiculous and disgusting. If I wanted to eat cardboard, I could do so for much cheaper.

Joe Zollars

[Finella]

I agree, Joe -- making good tofu is all about the preparation. There's some brands that have a more "meaty" texture than others, and if you press it first before seasoning it, it helps a lot. For my husband, though, he just hates the texture no matter how you prepare it. Too "squidgy."

We did try seitan once, and I have to admit that I wasn't too keen. It just tasted like eating a sponge. I mean, it can soak up marinades well, but it doesn't feel like it does anything with it. It's just a sponge full of whatever spices you put in there.

[Gerdie]

I don't think that laying off the meat completely is the healthiest choice. Not eating meat acutally puts you ate risk for a B-12 defiency, and while you can take a supplement, the body really prefers to get all nutrients from food sources and uses them more effeciently. Also in the USA supplements are not regulated by the FDA, so if you are going to take them you need to do so with caution.

[SumTinWong]

I mispoke. Yes it is true that Tofu has no taste but what is nasty to me is the texture. I am a texture person and just ... eww... is all I can say.

[Torah613]

Uncle Bud, I can agree. The texture does leave something to be desired. Personally I generally cook ethnic, and in most cultures around the world you can find dishes that do not require tofu or other soy products.

If you are going to make soy products a regular staple in your diet, beware as they can lead to shall we say gassiness and other sideeffects.

Joe Zollars

[SumTinWong]

Tell me about it ;) I am trying to drink just soy milk, and while it does not taste like milk (the chocolate does) I like it quite a bit, the no fat for sure

[Torah613]

as I said, the vegan diet, or even cutting out animal byproducts in little ways, has enourmous health benefits.

To me it is very meaningful that this is how adam and eve lived in the Garden. Sure we were given dominion over animals after the fall, but why do so when there is so much nutritional benefit to be found in non-animal sources. Personally I believe that meat and animal byproducts in general are slowly poisening the human population. Sure we never will notice it en masse, and sure its not likely to lead directly to death. However, it should be noted that diabetes, heart disease, altheimers (sp?), hypertension, and numerous other ailments have been directly linked to the overconsumption of animal byproducts. All this not to mention obesity.

As a final note, Avian Flu is directly linked to the factory farming of poultry. As is Mad Cow Disease. Sure adds another layer to the ethical reasons of veganism, at least in my mind.

Joe Zollars

[karen freeinchristman]

as I said, the vegan diet, or even cutting out animal byproducts in little ways, has enourmous health benefits.

To me it is very meaningful that this is how adam and eve lived in the Garden. Sure we were given dominion over animals after the fall, but why do so when there is so much nutritional benefit to be found in non-animal sources. Personally I believe that meat and animal byproducts in general are slowly poisening the human population. Sure we never will notice it en masse, and sure its not likely to lead directly to death. However, it should be noted that diabetes, heart disease, altheimers (sp?), hypertension, and numerous other ailments have been directly linked to the overconsumption of animal byproducts. All this not to mention obesity.

As a final note, Avian Flu is directly linked to the factory farming of poultry. As is Mad Cow Disease. Sure adds another layer to the ethical reasons of veganism, at least in my mind.

Joe ZollarsCertainly you must be right that we (the western world) are experiencing the fallout of having such methods of meat production. But I think that meat in moderation should be fine (if it were produced in ethical ways). I think that processed foods and especially over-indulgence in sugary foods, fatty foods, and foods with additives are the worst culprits for health problems. I am guilty of giving too much of this stuff to my kids and I am finding it really hard to get them to accept alternatives. These types of foods are addictive and set us up for cravings. I think it's morally wrong that food companies are allowed to make this stuff. I know it's my fault for giving it to them, though.

[pmcleanj]

... I am guilty of giving too much of this stuff to my kids and I am finding it really hard to get them to accept alternatives ...

I tried with no avail to "sneak" onto my children's plates healthier versions of foods they liked already -- homemade white bread with increasing proportion of brown flour, reduced-sugar lowfat yoghurt, and so on.

Then one day I said "fooey on them, *I* want whole-grain bread". So I bought what was good for *me* -- and they discovered they loved it. The white loaf went mouldy, and I haven't bought white bread since.

Then they had nutrition lectures at Ballet School, and we went shopping specifically for what the dietician had said was good for dancers. Rachel bought plain youghurt and fresh fruit and tried mixing them herself. The first time she wrinkled her nose and said "it tastes different .... but ... that's probably because it has no sugar in it." So she tried it again with a different fruit and using the blender to mix them, and hasn't looked back since.

Radical changes have worked better than gradual changes for our family. But we've never gone the sugary-cereal route; and fast-food tends to mean Edo sukiyaki rather than McDonalds hamburgers, so we probably don't have as much to combat as other families do.

It's a good idea to do the right thing for yourself regardless of your family's preferences. Role-modelling is the most powerful way of taking care of our children, and the spin-off benefits are great.

(as an aside, after falling off the wagon last winter, I am now free and clear of caffeine again: two weeks clean!)

[No Swansong]

as I said, the vegan diet, or even cutting out animal byproducts in little ways, has enourmous health benefits.

To me it is very meaningful that this is how adam and eve lived in the Garden. Sure we were given dominion over animals after the fall, but why do so when there is so much nutritional benefit to be found in non-animal sources. Personally I believe that meat and animal byproducts in general are slowly poisening the human population. Sure we never will notice it en masse, and sure its not likely to lead directly to death. However, it should be noted that diabetes, heart disease, altheimers (sp?), hypertension, and numerous other ailments have been directly linked to the overconsumption of animal byproducts. All this not to mention obesity.

As a final note, Avian Flu is directly linked to the factory farming of poultry. As is Mad Cow Disease. Sure adds another layer to the ethical reasons of veganism, at least in my mind.

Joe Zollars


Joe this really has nothing to do with the subject but didn't you post once that you did not believe Adam and Eve to be literal persons?

[Torah613]

I do have reservations about interpreting the garden of eden literally. However my point stands as the first chapter of the bible tells us the healthiest diet to follow. Whether or not the characters played are real or fictional doesn't really change the underlying merit of the story.

Joe Zollars

[karen freeinchristman]

I bought DH some organic dried apricots as a snack, and gave them to him this evening while he was waiting for dinner to cook. We found it so interesting that organic dried apricots are brown (the inorganic ones retaining their orange colour thru the addition of preservatives). These apricots were delicious. Why don't people like eating brown dried apricots? They accept brown dates and brown prunes. Why is it that we accept all of these additives in our foods? I think it is a denial kind of thing.

Anyway, we are going to attempt a radical change.




Except for coffee. I'm not giving up coffee. I buy fairly traded coffee. That's OK. :)

[Finella]

The talk of forgoing meat reminds me of a coworker I once knew who lost over a hundred pounds by going "vegan." I say "vegan" because she really didn't know what she was doing. She went to Whole Foods to buy her stuff, but just stopped eating meat. She shed the weight, but very quickly and got ill. Her doctor strongly advised her to get back on some meat again and to make sure she was getting enough nutrition. I'm not sure what she was lacking nutritionally exactly, but I do know she was disappointed that she had to get back on the meat again. She was looking forward to losing more weight.

A little misplaced motivation, I guess.

I'm with Karen, I'm an omnivore, that's how I was created, and I will continue to eat meat -- but as ethically and as intelligently as I can.

[SumTinWong]

I love Vegans" that wear leather Birkenstock sandals and drive Eddie Bauer SUVs ;)

[SirTimothy]

(as an aside, after falling off the wagon last winter, I am now free and clear of caffeine again: two weeks clean!)

An engineer that doesn't drink coffee? O_o

[No Swansong]

I do have reservations about interpreting the garden of eden literally. However my point stands as the first chapter of the bible tells us the healthiest diet to follow. Whether or not the characters played are real or fictional doesn't really change the underlying merit of the story.

Joe Zollars

Actually I thought that the point of the story was that man sinned and as a result blood was shed foreshadowing the shedding of Christ's blood. It is really novel to me that it is a story about proper diet. Oh well don't really mean to sidetrack the thread.

[karen freeinchristman]

Actually I thought that the point of the story was that man sinned and as a result blood was shed foreshadowing the shedding of Christ's blood. It is really novel to me that it is a story about proper diet. Oh well don't really mean to sidetrack the thread. If I may step in here, :sorry: I do think it is interesting that we are given the permission to eat animals AFTER the fall. I wonder about that. However, I must say that I struggle with looking at Genesis literally, and that affects my thinking about whether the order of giving permission really occurred like that, and whether it should have any impact on our decisions whether to eat meat or be vegetarian. Just musing...

[Torah613]

Actually I thought that the point of the story was that man sinned and as a result blood was shed foreshadowing the shedding of Christ's blood. It is really novel to me that it is a story about proper diet. Oh well don't really mean to sidetrack the thread.

of course it is. However there are other side issues brought up by the story as well. Or at the very least interesting tidbits. Of course that's the thing about scripture, no two people interpret it the same. Ever wondered why there were so many people claiming to interpret the bible literally yet coming up with all kinds of different interpretations?

Joe Zollars

[Torah613]

If I may step in here, :sorry: I do think it is interesting that we are given the permission to eat animals AFTER the fall. I wonder about that. However, I must say that I struggle with looking at Genesis literally, and that affects my thinking about whether the order of giving permission really occurred like that, and whether it should have any impact on our decisions whether to eat meat or be vegetarian. Just musing...

I think that's the point. Scripture is not always meant to be interpreted literally, in fact we as human beings are incapable of doing this truly as we always bring our own life circumstances into it. We also do this with secular books. Its a coping mechanism our brain uses to make what we are reading relevant to our lives, and thus intelligable to us. Scripture is not just meant for use in community, but more importantly in individual life as a general guidebook towards leading a more moral, ethical life. At least that's my interpretation.

Regaring the permission to eat meat, permission and command are not the same. Of course at that time, if genesis is to be taken literally, meat would have been an essential, if not the primary, part of the diet. This was before settled agriculture after all.

Joe Zollars

[karen freeinchristman]

Its a coping mechanism our brain uses to make what we are reading relevant to our lives, and thus intelligable to us.
True: it is a God-given coping mechanism!



Of course at that time, if genesis is to be taken literally, meat would have been an essential, if not the primary, part of the diet. This was before settled agriculture after all.
Good point!

[No Swansong]

I think that's the point. Scripture is not always meant to be interpreted literally, in fact we as human beings are incapable of doing this truly as we always bring our own life circumstances into it. We also do this with secular books. Its a coping mechanism our brain uses to make what we are reading relevant to our lives, and thus intelligable to us. Scripture is not just meant for use in community, but more importantly in individual life as a general guidebook towards leading a more moral, ethical life. At least that's my interpretation.

Regaring the permission to eat meat, permission and command are not the same. Of course at that time, if genesis is to be taken literally, meat would have been an essential, if not the primary, part of the diet. This was before settled agriculture after all.

Joe Zollars


Actually guys I made my comments with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek. I was just having a mini-haha with my friend Joe. (or at least I thought I was) I guess it was a very poor attempt, sorry.

[Torah613]

Actually guys I made my comments with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek. I was just having a mini-haha with my friend Joe. (or at least I thought I was) I guess it was a very poor attempt, sorry.

I kinda figured that, and decided to turn it around to a more serious topic. Just my own way of saying "haha." ;)

Joe Zollars

[Torah613]

anyways back to the issue at hand, here (http://www.christianforums.com/t3232493-[open]food-ethics.html) is the discussion on this very topic from over at WWMC.

Joe Zollars