Isreal = the Church?

[gtsecc]

I started this over on STR - but want your knowledge also, please.


I am convinced that when the New Testament refers to Israel, the writers mean the new Israel which is the church. How would you explain that to a protestant who think the Bible was foretelling the creating of the Jewish state of Israel?

[gtsecc]

You see, a friend of mine went to this Baptist church – and the preacher got him all whipped up about end times. He showed in the Bible that those who don’t support Israel will suffer the wrath of God. And, the conclusion is of course that Christians have to support bombing Palestinians. I said, well of course this isn’t true – the Vatican has clearly condemned the war. But, that went over like a lead balloon – sort of proof the Vatican is out of touch or don’t read their Bible. But, I knew that what the statement means is that those who don’t support the NEW Israel, which is the church, will feel God’s wrath.

[Jacob4707]

The language that I Peter uses in referring to Christians sure sounds like the author is equating the church with the New Israel. Romans 9-11 is probably the strongest NT passage re: the relevance/continuation of physical Israel as being God's covenant people, but aside from that, most the NT seems to portray the church as being God's new covenant people, made up of Jews and Gentiles alike - i.e., physical/national Israel was only a type and shadow of the Reality, which is the Body of Christ.

People put down this view by calling it "replacement theology" and imply it's anti-Semitic. However, it's much easier, IMO, to assert the church being the New Israel (after all, per Galatians, the "seed" of Abraham to whom God made His promises was Christ, not the Jewish people - though in the "natural" realm it appeared to be the Jews, and it was for a time - but only as a type and shadow of Christ, the New Man) than to try to create and maintain a weird hermeneutic that brings OT physicalities into NT spiritualities, positing a double-covenant two-parallel-tracks-of-salvation model with God having 2 salvation plans, one for Christians and one for Jews, and having to "rapture" the Church out of the world so He can finish His covenant with the Jews - because this covenant-plan was "put on hold" when the Jews rejected Christ, so God then implemented "Plan B" with the non-Jewish church taking center stage until He can rapture it away and get back to finishing His dealings with the Jews. Yes, that is a (somewhat-simplistic) description of dispensational theology as I understand it.

[ClementofRome]

In addition to the excellent post above by KATHXOUMENOC, St. Clement of Rome, writing in approx. 96AD, made it clear in no uncertain terms that the Church is true Israel.

Premillennial Dispensationalism is a product of the last 130 years. Many Protestant denominations (mostly Baptistic and Independent, but also some charismatic and others) have fallen to fadish eschatology. The Left Behind series of popular books did more to spread this false doctrine than has any other method or media since its inception with the Plymouth Brethren in the late 1800's.

[gtsecc]

Where in Clement? I can access most of his writing on line - but I need a citation.

[ClementofRome]

Chapter 3 applies the prophecy of Deut 32:15 directly to the Corinthians. One needs to read all of 1 Clement through the lenses of the OT Scriptures. The Scriptures (OT) were written for the Church in Clement's mind. Also, Chapter 29 reads Israel/Chosen People = the Church pretty clearly. It is hard to prooftext Clement as his entire epistle is saturated with the notion that the Christians to whom he is speaking are true/spiritual Israel.

[Vasileios]

when I saw your topic subject I thought "isreal? Is Outrage!"

I think I'm spending too much time here. Whenever I sense a whiff of is-whatever I think "is outrage!" :P

Sorry about the offtopic... As for a serious answer, I think in many hymns the church is indeed called the new israel, especially during Holy Week where btw the unbelieving Jews are likened to the barren fig tree. Thats part of Holy Tradition, so...

Besides, we do believe that it is God that first gives us the grace to find faith (when we desire to find Him), so in a sense we are chosen, at least thats how I see it...

[buzuxi02]

I started this over on STR - but want your knowledge also, please.


I am convinced that when the New Testament refers to Israel, the writers mean the new Israel which is the church. How would you explain that to a protestant who think the Bible was foretelling the creating of the Jewish state of Israel?


Simply tell them to actually read the bible. I recommend Galatians 6.14-16. I think that should put this debate to rest.

[ClementofRome]

I was flicking channels yesterday and ran across John Hagee of Cornerstone Church in San Antonio Tx and amazed to see the large numbers (a HUGE church) who were cheering as Hagee expounded the importance of the current middle east events as the events that will usher in the rapture, tribulation, 2nd Coming events.

The biggest problem that I see in teaching a premillennial dispensataionalism is that it teaches that Christians willl not face a tribulation when in fact Christians are facing tribulation as we speak and will continue to do so (even intensified in then future). Also, a complete and idiotic rejection of any understanding of Hebrew numerology as applied in Revelation.?????

[Orthocat]

I was flicking channels yesterday and ran across John Hagee of Cornerstone Church in San Antonio Tx and amazed to see the large numbers (a HUGE church) who were cheering as Hagee expounded the importance of the current middle east events as the events that will usher in the rapture, tribulation, 2nd Coming events.

The biggest problem that I see in teaching a premillennial dispensataionalism is that it teaches that Christians willl not face a tribulation when in fact Christians are facing tribulation as we speak and will continue to do so (even intensified in then future). Also, a complete and idiotic rejection of any understanding of Hebrew numerology as applied in Revelation.?????


John Hagee...

(Orthocat beats his head against the wall)

Jack Van Impe...

(and again)

Jimmy Swaggart

(and again)

Pat Robertson

(and again - Orthocat slumps to the floor with "Lord have mercy" coming out of his mouth)

[ClementofRome]

John Hagee...

(Orthocat beats his head against the wall)

Jack Van Impe...

(and again)

Jimmy Swaggart

(and again)

Pat Robertson

(and again - Orthocat slumps to the floor with "Lord have mercy" coming out of his mouth)

I gotta tell you, I was screaming at the TV set....my wife says, "why don't you change the channel"....I respond back to her, "obviously I am a masochist."

[OnTheWay]

Hey, you gotta watch the pink haired woman on TBN. Now that's protestant TV.

[Orthocat]

I gotta tell you, I was screaming at the TV set....my wife says, "why don't you change the channel"....I respond back to her, "obviously I am a masochist."


My father loves Hagee...and it drives me insane.

I asked him once if it is Hagee's job to try and scare the hell out of people. He said that's the way it should be.
I asked him I wonder what would happen if someone tried loving the hell out of people.

But oh wait..someone did....

[Theophorus]

Hbr 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Hbr 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,