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No Swansong
25th July 2006, 12:12 PM
Does anybody know anything about this claim?

+John Wesley was consecrated by +Erasmus, Bishop in the Greek Orthodox Church, Diocese of Arcadia in 1763.

Found at
http://www.i-c-u.org/succession3.html

I have not been able to verify their claim here.
AngloWesleyan
25th July 2006, 02:26 PM
Sounds suspect to me.
ClementofRome
25th July 2006, 04:07 PM
I just fired that site off to a couple of Wesley experts that i know and we shall soon have our answer.....it is suspect to me too.
herev
26th July 2006, 09:16 PM
interesting, I'll send it to my UM history professor, too
herev
26th July 2006, 09:21 PM
I just fired that site off to a couple of Wesley experts that i know and we shall soon have our answer.....it is suspect to me too.ok, so---are you related to either of these?
ClementofRome
26th July 2006, 10:33 PM
ok, so---are you related to either of these?

Yes, but we went over their head's too as the relatives were as flabergasted as I was when I read the site. Hopefully, we will have a response back soon from a real expert! :)

You are so funny!
C
No Swansong
27th July 2006, 08:30 AM
Yes, but we went over their head's too as the relatives were as flabergasted as I was when I read the site. Hopefully, we will have a response back soon from a real expert! :)

You are so funny!
C


I appreciate your dilligence in this matter. It seems to me that if this were true then certainly at least the Methodists would know about it. It does seem strange to me that it is a non-wesleyan, group that makes the claim.
Things that make you go HMMMM?
KCDAD
28th July 2006, 12:23 PM
Does anybody know anything about this claim?

+John Wesley was consecrated by +Erasmus, Bishop in the Greek Orthodox Church, Diocese of Arcadia in 1763.

Found at
http://www.i-c-u.org/succession3.html

I have not been able to verify their claim here.


What's the issue you are concerned with? That he might have been affliated with The Greek Orthodox Church or with Erasmus? You know of course this not the same Erasmus that had conflicts with general church policies in the 1500s.
The Dutch humanist, Desiderius Erasmus, was born at Rotterdam, apparently on October 28, 1466 and died in 1536.
svdbygrace
28th July 2006, 01:31 PM
Dr. Baxter Tenison, Bishop of Oxford was consecrated by Dr. Philip Tillotson in 1701 who ordained Fr. John Wesley as a Presbyter in the Church of England in the year 1724.

Here (http://www.revneal.org/Writings/apostoli.htm) is a few list of the line of Succession from Wesley to St. Paul.
KCDAD
28th July 2006, 01:37 PM
Dr. Baxter Tenison, Bishop of Oxford was consecrated by Dr. Philip Tillotson in 1701 who ordained Fr. John Wesley as a Presbyter in the Church of England in the year 1724.

Here (http://www.revneal.org/Writings/apostoli.htm) is a few list of the line of Succession from Wesley to St. Paul.
I am sorry for being so dense... but of what importance is this? Wouldn't have Wesley been one of the first to say this was nonsense, and that a man is judged by who he is not by what man ordained him... ordination comes from God, not from another man.
silentpoet
28th July 2006, 02:02 PM
The thing I have to ask, is this important? I mean, does it matter who followed who. It reminds me of when Jesus answered the pharisees who claimed Abraham as their father. The real question is not what relationship others may have had with God, but what relationship I do. Now I am fairly new as a Nazerene, but I just don't understand the importance of this question. So please educate me as to why this is important.
No Swansong
28th July 2006, 02:05 PM
What's the issue you are concerned with? That he might have been affliated with The Greek Orthodox Church or with Erasmus? You know of course this not the same Erasmus that had conflicts with general church policies in the 1500s.
The Dutch humanist, Desiderius Erasmus, was born at Rotterdam, apparently on October 28, 1466 and died in 1536.


No it wouldn't be concerning to me that he was affiliated with the Greek Orthodox Church. It was simply a claim that was made that I thought was interesting. Because it was interesting I did some research and could not find any supporting evidence. When I could not find supporting evidence I decided to ask the Wesleyan board because I knew that there were some Church History scholars on the board. I realized of course that Desiderius Erasmus and Wesley were separated by what (?) 200 years and made no connection between the two.
No Swansong
28th July 2006, 02:08 PM
I am sorry for being so dense... but of what importance is this? Wouldn't have Wesley been one of the first to say this was nonsense, and that a man is judged by who he is not by what man ordained him... ordination comes from God, not from another man.


Actually this is one of the reasons that I found this so interesting. I believe that you are correct about Wesley's opinion. But if this was truly his opinion then why would he pursue consecration? That is the question that I was interested in.
KCDAD
28th July 2006, 02:25 PM
Actually this is one of the reasons that I found this so interesting. I believe that you are correct about Wesley's opinion. But if this was truly his opinion then why would he pursue consecration? That is the question that I was interested in.

MY guess (just that a guess) is that in The Anglican Church if you want to preach you got consecrated... much like in my church, if you want to give communion you either become an elder or get permission from the elder or the bishop... a very distasteful aspect of Methodism, to me.
svdbygrace
28th July 2006, 02:29 PM
I am sorry for being so dense... but of what importance is this? Wouldn't have Wesley been one of the first to say this was nonsense, and that a man is judged by who he is not by what man ordained him... ordination comes from God, not from another man.

I would agree with you to a extent, but you must remember our doctrine is also based on Tradition. What the Church has always said/done is still of great importance to us. :)
KCDAD
28th July 2006, 02:59 PM
I would agree with you to a extent, but you must remember our doctrine is also based on Tradition. What the Church has always said/done is still of great importance to us.

maybe to some Methodists... I am all for the rethinking of much of what we call church tradition.
No Swansong
28th July 2006, 03:04 PM
MY guess (just that a guess) is that in The Anglican Church if you want to preach you got consecrated... much like in my church, if you want to give communion you either become an elder or get permission from the elder or the bishop... a very distasteful aspect of Methodism, to me.

That is not true. Wesley was an ordained presbyter. He could preach and baptize, consecrate the host, marry etc. According to the Anglican Church what he could not do is Ordain, and except for in extreme cases could not confirm. So again if he did not feel that it was necessary to be consecrated a Bishop why do it? I am not even sure that he did. I have not been able to find any corroborating evidence for this claim. I was just curious. And not I am just downright obsessive. Well maybe not obsessive but more curious.
KCDAD
28th July 2006, 03:06 PM
That is not true. Wesley was an ordained presbyter. He could preach and baptize, consecrate the host, marry etc. According to the Anglican Church what he could not do is Ordain, and except for in extreme cases could not confirm. So again if he did not feel that it was necessary to be consecrated a Bishop why do it? I am not even sure that he did. I have not been able to find any corroborating evidence for this claim. I was just curious. And not I am just downright obsessive. Well maybe not obsessive but more curious.

Thank you. I understand the difference, now.
No Swansong
28th July 2006, 03:07 PM
I would agree with you to a extent, but you must remember our doctrine is also based on Tradition. What the Church has always said/done is still of great importance to us. :)

While this may be true (I do not know a great deal about Methodist Theology) There is very early evidence that the terms presbyter and episcopos were used interchangeably. I am unique in the Anglican world in that I tend to believe that the difference was only one of polity, not of ability.(however I am fully ready to admit that I could be wrong about this one.)
Daniels
30th July 2006, 06:16 AM
No idea.
contriteheart
31st July 2006, 09:35 PM
Okay, I am the farthest thing from a Wesley expert that could possibly exist, however I seem to recall hearing at some point that John's brother Charles was angry with him for performing ordinations since he was not a bishop. I'm guessing that John would have told Charles, at least, if he had indeed been consecrated - if nothing else, just to save some family bickering! ;)

But hey, what do I know? My knowledge of Methodist history could fill maybe a thimble (if that).

-Grace