If you could give a Protestant friend only one book

[gtsecc]

She is a non-denom. What one book, would help her see these things, which to her are unnecessary, are of the essence of the church?

I was thinking Schmemann’s For the Life of the World.

[Jacob4707]

Are you trying to justify/defend Orthodoxy to her, or is she actually curious and interested in Orthodoxy?

[silouanathonite]

I personally enjoyed "Becoming Orthodox" by Peter Gillquist. I think that would be a good book. I also think "The Doctrine of Christ" by Bishop Dmitri would be great to give someone looking to find out about what we believe about Christ.

[gzt]

that is the very book i was going to recommend.

[Teke]

I give THE FAITH book by Clark Carlton to anyone interested in the Orthodox faith. We also use it as a catechism for new converts at my church. :thumbsup:

[gtsecc]

Not even specifically Orthodox.

I just want her to see that this suff matters - more allong the lines of the church being a eucharistic community, not merely you and me and the bible and Jesus. Bishops, sacraments, eclessiology, tradition, communuion, etc.. all the stuff that non-denoms either don't knwo about or thinks is fluff.

[ClementofRome]

As an inquirer who has read many of the popular books, I believe that Frederica Mathewes-Green's Facing East did more to help me understand Orthodoxy on a practical level and to begin to fall in love with it.

[Grigorii]

Facing East sounds good,..

Grigorii

[Khaleas]

There's a lot of people out there who find Schmemann fairly hard to read. I've gotten myself through a few of his books but for me it was rather painful. Not that it isn't interesting, but it's a heavy read.
The two books that won me over was The Way of A Pilgrim and Father Arseny. Facing East is also a good book.
Question is more what you think would 'persuade' her more: Factual, text book style or 'a good story'. For me it was 'the good story' that then poked my curiosity enough to go find the facts and information.

[kamikat]

For someone who likes heavy philosophy, For the Life of the World, by Fr Schmemann. For someone who likes lighter reading, Becoming Orthodox by Fr Gilquist. If you don't know his story, he was a leader in Campus Crusade who eventually lead his whole congregation to Orthodoxy. It's a great read.

kamikat

[Mary of Bethany]

Thirsting for God in a Land of Shallow Wells by Matthew Gallatin would be good for a non-denom. He was in the same place and this book talks about how western Christianity has reduced faith to an intellectual exercise, and contrasts it with the fullness of Orthodox faith. I think it would be a really good book for her.

Mary

[gtsecc]

I don't want her to total shun western Christinity - just get to an understanding that Orthodox, Roman Catholcis, and Anglicans would share - Eucharistic people with Bishops with Scripture (all of it) the daily cycle of prayer, and Tradition, where Liturgy is not optional, but given to us from God as the way to worship.

[Michael the Iconographer]

As an inquirer who has read many of the popular books, I believe that Frederica Mathewes-Green's Facing East did more to help me understand Orthodoxy on a practical level and to begin to fall in love with it.

Yes, Facing East helps you understand the Orthodox mindset.

[Michael the Iconographer]

I don't want her to total shun western Christinity - just get to an understanding that Orthodox, Roman Catholcis, and Anglicans would share - Eucharistic people with Bishops with Scripture (all of it) the daily cycle of prayer, and Tradition, where Liturgy is not optional, but given to us from God as the way to worship.

Becoming Orthodox required turning one's back on being a Western Christian. I would say western Christians are as different from Orthodox Christians as they are like us. And I am sorry if this sounds harsh, but Anglican tradition dates 500 years to a schism with Rome, while Orthodox tradition dates 2000 years to Christ.

[EricTheRed]

But you can be western and not a heretic. Look at the western rite Orthodox.

[Michael the Iconographer]

But you can be western and not a heretic. Look at the western rite Orthodox.

The Western Rite Orthodox are a very small minority of Orthodox, and an even smaller minority in the world. They are hardly representative of Western Christianity. Suffice it to say Rome and the Protestants (yes, Anglicans and Lutherans are Protestants as they were offshoots of Rome during the Reformation) have much more in common with each other than they do Orthodoxy. It never ceases to amaze me how those who are not Orthodox love to equate themselves with those who are Orthodox.

[gtsecc]

Right right right - I know Anglicans are outside the church from the Orthodox perspective, none the less, I hope you can help me, and understand the question.

The Question is not so much which book would make a non-denom Eastern Orthodox.

The Question is more like what would make them simply understand a view that is shared by the Roman Catholics and Anglicans, Copts, Old Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox.

[EricTheRed]

Yes they are small but all I am trying to say is Western does not always equal wrong, byt sadly in most cases it is.

[eoe]

I don't want her to total shun western Christinity
pfft.! You are biased!
(just kidding)


edit:

The Question is not so much which book would make a non-denom Eastern Orthodox.

The Question is more like what would make them simply understand a view that is shared by the Roman Catholics and Anglicans, Copts, Old Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox.
BAH! Aim higher!

(again... kidding...)

[Michael the Iconographer]

Yes they are small but all I am trying to say is Western does not always equal wrong, byt sadly in most cases it is.

Western does not automatically equal wrong, as you have pointed out, but in the vast majority of cases western Christians are patently wrong in their views, worship and approach.

[gtsecc]

Would it take an act of the second person of the trinity directly for anyone here to see some sort of common ground held by lets just say Roman Catholics and the Orthodox? I really do know the orthodox position that for a non-denom to become Roman Catholic is pointless as they are still outside the church, etc… blah blah, but you can’t imagine how unhelpful that it. How/why do I have to plead? Can’t someone go, oh yeah, we share these things in common, and it is articulated well in Schememan’s book etc…

[gtsecc]

You know, if the Pope himself went to Moscow to try and have a dialog, the Patriarch wouldn't receive him for being a heretic, and therefore dialog is pointless. Oh, wait a minuet that is what happened. That IS the Orthodox position. You know Anglicans share a basic sacramental theology with you, but I don’t think we come across as petty. Forgive me, but I believe it was important to be clear with you about the frustration people have when they dare try to ask the Orthodox for help with something.

[gtsecc]

Gtsecc,
I am sorry, but what you don’t understand is that for Orthodox, the faith is the way the truth and the light – it cannot be broken down into pieces which can be analyzed ( an error of the western church) – sacraments, Episcopacy, liturgy, etcetera, such that having a portion of the piece are a portion of the faith. If you don’t have all the faith, then you don’t have the faith. That is why the answers you are getting are so harsh.

Pax,
Gtsecc

[gtsecc]

Gtsecc,
Sorry. We only know where the faith is, not where it isn’t. Therefore, answering your question requires that we know something about the position of other faiths – that simply isn’t the thing the orthodox do. We have the faith, and if you want it you can renounce the error of the former beliefs, and come into Christ’s church. We have only been able to maintain the faith unchanged for 2,000 years because of this stance.

Peace,
Gtsecc

[Mary of Bethany]

g -

I think the real fact is that we just misunderstood what you were looking for, and then the thread went on a little tangent - as often happens.

Now that I understand better, I think maybe something by C.S. Lewis, or Chesterton, or maybe Jaroslav Pelikan would fit the bill. I'm sorry I don't have any specific recommendations, though.

Mary

[icxn]

I would give her the life of a Saint such as, Mother Gavrilia ("The Ascetic of Love"), Elder Paisios or St. Nectarios.

After reading one of these it is hard not to fall in love with Orthodoxy.

[gtsecc]

g -

I think the real fact is that we just misunderstood what you were looking for, and then the thread went on a little tangent - as often happens.

Now that I understand better, I think maybe something by C.S. Lewis, or Chesterton, or maybe Jaroslav Pelikan would fit the bill. I'm sorry I don't have any specific recommendations, though.

Mary
Thank you!
I love Orthodoxy.
I will be at Vespers tommorrow. But you can't wonder weather or not posting here makes me want to convert.

[Michael the Iconographer]

You know, if the Pope himself went to Moscow to try and have a dialog, the Patriarch wouldn't receive him for being a heretic, and therefore dialog is pointless. Oh, wait a minuet that is what happened. That IS the Orthodox position. You know Anglicans share a basic sacramental theology with you, but I don’t think we come across as petty. Forgive me, but I believe it was important to be clear with you about the frustration people have when they dare try to ask the Orthodox for help with something.

The Pope would not be received by the Patriach of Moscow for the stated reasons that the Byzantines and Romans openly prostelytize in the Ukraine and Russia. Dialog is pointless because there is nothing about Orthodoxy that will change. If Rome and the west want to become Orthodox, that is fine. Orthodoxy will not become western.

My frustration with you is that you talk like you are Orthodox, and have done so for some great time now, but in fact are quite content with remaining Anglican. If you want to fellowship with us, please do. But please don't bash us for being honest and truthful with you about our views on western Christianity.

[eoe]

gtsecc you are too funny

Alright.....
Now. Convert. Right now.


Let me know when you are done.

I'll wait.



*e checks his watch*

[gtsecc]

Do I renounce my former delutions, and spit towards Canterbury 3 times? How does it work? You know, if I could sing, I might convert. In all likley hood, I will go into the priesthood. Now, I can't sing, and I woudl enjoy beign married, so that leave em with one option.

[eoe]

Do I renounce my former delutions, and spit towards Canterbury 3 times? How does it work? You know, if I could sing, I might convert. In all likley hood, I will go into the priesthood. Now, I can't sing, and I woudl enjoy beign married, so that leave em with one option.
LOL!@!!

I have to introduce you to some priests I know. I bet you can sing better than you think! Are you telling me that a fear of singing is holding you back? Surely not....

[EricTheRed]

I agree, with proper training anyone can sing.

[Nickolai]

For the life of the world is a good book for defense of Traditional Christian views of things. It will also NOT make your friend not want to be western, It doesn't just shun everything non-eastern. It is a bit theologically heavy in some places though.

That the answer you wanted? ;)

Reader Nikolai

[gzt]

two things: once again i will reiterate the suggestion of for the life of the world. second, though it'd be exceedingly stupid to base one's conversion on whether or not one could be a priest [the presumption!], one doesn't need to sing very well to be one and anybody can be made to sing somewhat no matter what they say about their lack of ability. and i suggest avoiding any debates or discussions about east v. west and would suggest that, if you're not converting and she's not converting or at least has no real interest in it, convert stories, polemics, and catechisms aren't the best sort of thing to give out - though if you're converting, somed might be somewhat appropriate so that she at least knows what you're getting into.

[ClementofRome]

two things: once again i will reiterate the suggestion of for the life of the world. second, though it'd be exceedingly stupid to base one's conversion on whether or not one could be a priest [the presumption!], one doesn't need to sing very well to be one and anybody can be made to sing somewhat no matter what they say about their lack of ability. and i suggest avoiding any debates or discussions about east v. west and would suggest that, if you're not converting and she's not converting or at least has no real interest in it, convert stories, polemics, and catechisms aren't the best sort of thing to give out - though if you're converting, somed might be somewhat appropriate so that she at least knows what you're getting into.


ding, ding, ding, ding,......good answer, good answer (said in that unbearable "Family Feud" voice!)

Forgive me...it just came to mind for some reason.

[kamikat]

gtsecc, the reason why the answers seem so harsh is because there is a fundamental difference at the heart of the matter. I've been an inquirer for a long time and have only just begun to understand that there is this difference and it rocked my world. Please read For the Life of the World by Fr Schmemann, at least once, maybe more. I didn't really get it until nearly at the end and have decided to buy my own copy (read the church library copy) and read it over.
kamikat

[gzt]

oh, and if ftlotw is too dense/theological, try beginning to pray by metropolitan anthony bloom. ignore all that other junk. it's very inspirational! chicks dig it! it's light, but it's also deep and heavy. you'll probably want to read it, too. i think it's perfect for the sort of thing you were asking about earlier, as well.

current editions of it also include an interview about how he came to know Christ and how he was a part of the French Resistance movement and a bunch of other things.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Am I the only one who has read He Leadeth Me, by Fr. Walter Ciszek, SJ?

[RobNJ]

Do I renounce my former delutions, and spit towards Canterbury 3 times? How does it work? You know, if I could sing, I might convert. In all likley hood, I will go into the priesthood. Now, I can't sing, and I woudl enjoy beign married, so that leave em with one option.




Well, there really isn't any spitting involved ;)

[Michael the Iconographer]

Do I renounce my former delutions, and spit towards Canterbury 3 times? How does it work? You know, if I could sing, I might convert. In all likley hood, I will go into the priesthood. Now, I can't sing, and I woudl enjoy beign married, so that leave em with one option.



Only a priest can tell you what you must do in preparing for conversion, and only a priest may Chrismate you.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Well, there really isn't any spitting involved ;)

There is when you are formally made a catechumen!

[Vasileios]

ok. recommendation #6:
Glen, please, please read Wounded by Love: The Life and Wisdom of Elder Porphyrios.

Like...PLEASE. With sugar on top!

[buzuxi02]

For a non-denominationalist (another words protestant) The best Orthodox book written for one fron this kind of background is the "Orthodox Study Bible" with psalms.

[choirfiend]

You do spit! but you spit towards the west, and cantebury is east of here:)

[DonVA]

As an inquirer who has read many of the popular books, I believe that Frederica Mathewes-Green's Facing East did more to help me understand Orthodoxy on a practical level and to begin to fall in love with it.
Amen. It's an easy read, and is addressed to people like Frederica, who at one point had pretty much given up on Christianity. Now she's the Khouria!

[rusmeister]

I'd love to get ahold of and read that "Facing East" book myself. What you say just interests me more. Too bad it's not for sale over here...

[Teke]

I don't want her to total shun western Christinity - just get to an understanding that Orthodox, Roman Catholcis, and Anglicans would share - Eucharistic people with Bishops with Scripture (all of it) the daily cycle of prayer, and Tradition, where Liturgy is not optional, but given to us from God as the way to worship.

I'm still thinking the book "The Faith" by Clark Carlton would be a good beginner book. It is quite basic. Written on about a high school level.
Covers all the basic subjects you mentioned.

I've given it to many non denom (Protestants) and they were thrilled by the lil bits of info they hadn't realized before. And the writer, Clark Carlton was a former Baptist/Protestant who converted to Orthodox Christianity.

An Anglican bishop who visits my church for vespers liked it as well. He and I talk about scripture when he comes around. :)

[rusmeister]

I'd love to get ahold of and read that "Facing East" book myself. What you say just interests me more. Too bad it's not for sale over here... (sorry - I think that's always going to be a leit-motif for me.

[gtsecc]

I'd love to get ahold of and read that "Facing East" book myself. What you say just interests me more. Too bad it's not for sale over here...
I'll mail it to you. Want it autographed?

[Michael the Iconographer]

I'm still thinking the book "The Faith" by Clark Carlton would be a good beginner book. It is quite basic. Written on about a high school level.
Covers all the basic subjects you mentioned.

I've given it to many non denom (Protestants) and they were thrilled by the lil bits of info they hadn't realized before. And the writer, Clark Carlton was a former Baptist/Protestant who converted to Orthodox Christianity.

An Anglican bishop who visits my church for vespers liked it as well. He and I talk about scripture when he comes around. :)

I bought that book for my parents a year ago and they promised to read it, but have not. :(

[Teke]

I bought that book for my parents a year ago and they promised to read it, but have not. :(

I gave one to an inlaw who didn't pick it up until one day when it caught his eye (must've been the Holy Spirit). He was pleasently surprised by the info.

Sometimes the Spirit has to move them in the right direction when the time is right.
:angel:

[gtsecc]

I have order 2 books recomended in this thread. Faith, and Beginning To Pray. Wounded by Love: The Life and Wisdom of Elder Porphyrios isn't for sale at Amazon.

[moses916]

http://www.archangelsbooks.com/prodimages/Large/Books/L&LHARAKA-03.jpg

By Stanley Harakas

[Michael the Iconographer]

I gave one to an inlaw who didn't pick it up until one day when it caught his eye (must've been the Holy Spirit). He was pleasently surprised by the info.

Sometimes the Spirit has to move them in the right direction when the time is right.
:angel:

MY parents have been very resistant of my being Orthodox ever since I was still Byzantine Catholic (prior to my conversion) in '97.